DRS zones on all the 2013 tracks.

[gloomyDAY]

DRS-Zonen 2013: 17 Formel 1-Strecken mit zwei DRS-Zonen (Bildergalerie, Bild 12) - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/bilder/drs-zonen-2013-6741817.html?fotoshow_item=11#fotoshow_item=1)

NASCAR!

[EuroTroll]

This is probably the right place to have a discussion about DRS in general.

Am I alone in thinking that DRS is a good thing?

Why do I think that?
- Well, the whole point of motor racing is to sort out who is the fastest. The fastest car should finish first. DRS helps to achieve that.
- It doesn't IMO give a permanent unfair advantage to the pursuing car (A) over the pursued car (B) - only a temporary one. If A overtakes B and the two cars are equally fast, B will have an advantage over A in the next DRS zone. It evens out.

Your thoughts?

[steveaki13]

This is probably the right place to have a discussion about DRS in general.

Am I alone in thinking that DRS is a good thing?

Why do I think that?
- Well, the whole point of motor racing is to sort out who is the fastest. The fastest car should finish first. DRS helps to achieve that.
- It doesn't IMO give a permanent unfair advantage to the pursuing car (A) over the pursued car (B) - only a temporary one. If A overtakes B and the two cars are equally fast, B will have an advantage over A in the next DRS zone. It evens out.

Your thoughts?

If its just about being fastest you might as well decide points on Qualifying.

F1 is about battling too, i.e the guy in a slower car out foxing the faster guy and holding him up.

You used to get bizzare results when someone in a slower car could hold up faster cars which was exciting, but these days I feel DRS stops any chance of heoric drives.

I personally think it devalues passing. Instead of working it tactically you just get a free pass.

DRS = Not for me.

[EuroTroll]

If its just about being fastest you might as well decide points on Qualifying.

I meant the fastest over a race distance. ;)



I personally think it devalues passing. Instead of working it tactically you just get a free pass

Why must passing be so "valuable" and rare? It used to be much more common in the early days of F1 racing, before wings, than it was in the 80s, 90s, and 00s.

[Jag_Warrior]

I like DRS. I like it much more than KERS. I think the DRS concept has been pretty well thought out and well applied. It doesn't allow slower cars to freely overtake genuinely faster cars. For the most part, I think all it does is allow a faster car to pass a (somewhat) slower car. If the car that's been passed is genuinely faster, then he'll recapture the position on the next lap, right? But since we don't see that happen all that often, then I figure it's a legit pass.

[AndyL]

You used to get bizzare results when someone in a slower car could hold up faster cars which was exciting, but these days I feel DRS stops any chance of heoric drives.

I liked Jarno, but there was nothing heroic about the Trulli Train.

[Ranger]

You used to get bizzare results when someone in a slower car could hold up faster cars which was exciting,

It was/is not usually exciting when the pursuing car can never get close enough to attempt a pass, regardless of what the car is.

http://www.redbull.com/cs/RedBull/RBImages/000/000/807/0/photo610x343/Webber%20wins%20in%20Monaco%202705.jpg

Case in point: This was the closest race of last year but also one of the least exciting.

[seb_sh]

Conceptually I was initially against DRS because I felt it was somehow fake, however after seeing it in action I like it. It's not a magic pass button and the overtake even using DRS is not guaranteed, it still takes skill to get close enough for it to become active and the pass is not always trivial. Also I think it makes recovering positions more likely because many times faster cars/drivers could not pass because of the aero turbulence not allowing them to stay close to the car in front. Now faster drivers will be able to pass and get on with their race rather than spend half a race behind a slower car. So even though it's not a "natural" part of racing I don't think it is artificial or dumbed down and in the end makes the racing better for me.

[EuroTroll]

I have to say I'm a little surprised by the responses, pleasently so. I thought DRS was universally hated, but clearly not. :up:

[rjbetty]

I think steveaki is spot on. I think there is something about holding cars up that is skillful.

I don't care if faster cars spend half the race behind a slower one. This is Formula 1 and the onus should be on the driver of the faster car to make the pass.

I wonder what Ayrton Senna would have thought of DRS.



BUT, having said that:

Overall I don't mind DRS because the way I see it, it is simply restoring slipstreaming and overtaking to how it was in earlier decades. For too long it has been artifically hard to pass due to the so-called dirty air etc. Before that, my understanding is that cars could slipstream past another car. I'm not aware of anyone complaining about that and saying it's fake and too easy.

So as I see it, all DRS does is restore things to the way they were before, kind of.

But it's not ideal at all; for me it's an uneasy compromise. Like 2 wrongs not making a right, countering an artificial difficulty in passing with an artifical passing aid doesn't seem the perfect solution, but I suppose it's ok. Besides, I'm just grateful that traction control is GONE.

I also think DRS is pretty convoluted and not relevant to road cars etc. That's why I DO like KERS instead. I think KERS should remain but maybe DRS can go. I actually quite like the DRS in the Codemasters game though.

[steveaki13]

It was/is not usually exciting when the pursuing car can never get close enough to attempt a pass, regardless of what the car is.



Case in point: This was the closest race of last year but also one of the least exciting.

I would rather see a gaggle to 5 cars battling, than 5 cars with the fastest first, second fastest second. etc. all race jus spreading out.

[EuroTroll]

I wonder what Ayrton Senna would have thought of DRS.

Luckily that useless ******* is dead. :p



Overall I don't mind DRS because the way I see it, it is simply restoring slipstreaming and overtaking to how it was in earlier decades. For too long it has been artifically hard to pass due to the so-called dirty air etc. Before that, my understanding is that cars could slipstream past another car. I'm not aware of anyone complaining about that and saying it's fake and too easy.

So as I see it, all DRS does is restore things to the way they were before, kind of.

Exactly so. :up:


But it's not ideal at all; for me it's an uneasy compromise. Like 2 wrongs not making a right, countering an artificial difficulty in passing with an artifical passing aid doesn't seem the perfect solution, but I suppose it's ok. Besides, I'm just grateful that traction control is GONE.

I also think DRS is pretty convoluted and not relevant to road cars etc. That's why I DO like KERS instead. I think KERS should remain but maybe DRS can go. I actually quite like the DRS in the Codemasters game though.

A fine ending to an altogether excellent post, rjbetty. :up: Even though I don't agree with it. :p

[EuroTroll]

Maybe I should add that I was kidding about Senna? :) Not everybody knows perhaps that I was a huge fan. :)

[steveaki13]

I wouldn't mind it as much if it was availiable all around the circuits for both drivers, then it becomes like KERs.

The defending driver could use it to defend, but I am assuming it wouldn't cancel out completely the following drivers DRS as the slipstream effect and DRS would still be better than clean air DRS.

It might not work that way in which case I would just get rid of it.

[zako85]

I am leaning toward saying I don't like DRS. It reduced the occurrences of close racing, which was extremely demanding of drivers skill. Instead, the races have become more "analytical", with tire and pit stop strategy becoming a lot more important. The "defense" now consists in driving as fast as possible in clear air to stay more than a second ahead. Once this 1 second advantage is lost, it's game over.

[steveaki13]

I am leaning toward saying I don't like DRS. It reduced the occurrences of close racing, which was extremely demanding of drivers skill. Instead, the races have become more "analytical", with tire and pit stop strategy becoming a lot more important. The "defense" now consists in driving as fast as possible in clear air to stay more than a second ahead. Once this 1 second advantage is lost, it's game over.

Exactly my view.

We dont get racing now as much as delta times and easy passing. (not everytime, but more than before)

[wedge]

Overall I don't mind DRS because the way I see it, it is simply restoring slipstreaming and overtaking to how it was in earlier decades. For too long it has been artifically hard to pass due to the so-called dirty air etc. Before that, my understanding is that cars could slipstream past another car. I'm not aware of anyone complaining about that and saying it's fake and too easy.

Looks too artificial. It's like taking candy from a baby. Even Lewis overtaking Vettel in Texas with its epic build up ended up a bit anti-climatic because he breezed by like a company car driver in 320d.

The best overtakes involves that wheel to wheel tussle and it has been doable away from the DRS zones.

[steveaki13]

Looks too artificial. It's like taking candy from a baby. Even Lewis overtaking Vettel in Texas with its epic build up ended up a bit anti-climatic because he breezed by like a company car driver in 320d.

The best overtakes involves that wheel to wheel tussle and it has been doable away from the DRS zones.

Thats what I dont understand.

Look at Overtaking in F1. Its a long time since its been as "simple" as it is now. People seem to want quantity of overtakes over quality.

I would take a race full of battles with 5 passes, over a GP with 30 DRS passes that prove nothing much and leave me cold. Just because there is overtaking doesnt mean its brilliant.

Look at a pass like. (just off the top of my head)

Montoya on Schumacher Brazil 2001. Montoya sideways all locked up
Hakkinen on Schumacher Belgium 2000 eitherside of Zonta
Barrichello passing the field in Hockenheim 2000 or Britain 2003
Alonso around 130R on the outside of Schumi

All these and other epic overtakes had you on the edge of your seat, as you saw the two drivers move around in the braking zone , lock wheels and need a new piece of underwear.

Contrast with many DRS passes along the straight way before the corner. Not really that interesting to me.

People also use the "Well he can pass him back next lap" arguement, but we all know that really if a car is close enough to pass he is likely to be faster so just breezes off and instead of an epic battle for the lead which you might enjoy for 20 laps before an epic pass, you get the faster car fly past after 1 or 2 laps.

The faster car may "deserve" to be ahead, but its sure as hell wont be remembered as an epic.


Final point is the art of defensive driving. Some of the best drivers are defensive ones.

One example of probably many. Think back to the first 10 laps of the Austrian GP in 2001. Montoya and his Michelen tyres were in the "graining faze" as it was known. He was 2 or 3 seconds off the pace and had Schumacher, Barrichello, Coulthard, Raikkonen & Verstappen in a light Arrows nose to tail. 10 laps in which he defended for his life and saw side by side, nose bumping action for 10 laps with Verstappen passing the Sauber, Mclaren and hustling the Ferraris.

All of that in 10 laps due to defensive driving. One of the most exciting battles for a while back then albeit forgotten by many. If that was today all the cars behind would breeze past, the Ferraris would have pulled away and excitement over.

Address the problem rather than come up with some gimmicky solution.

Cars slipstreaming is even and a natural occurance of racing, not like a system thought up of spice up "the show"

[EuroTroll]

Address the problem rather than come up with some gimmicky solution.

The problem is simply wings. Do you think they should be removed?

[steveaki13]

Here is the battle I talked about. Albeit only the final 3 laps of it before it ended in tears. DRS would have seen them all pass Montoya before it got to this point and the field would have spread out.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmerS6jr9v8

[steveaki13]

The problem is simply wings. Do you think they should be removed?

I dont think F1 would ever consider this, because it would make them less developed I suppose than some less categories. However it may be a good idea.

It would certainly aid following and still be even for both drivers.

[EuroTroll]

It would certainly aid following and still be even for both drivers.

It wouldn't because the pursuing car would benefit from the slipstream effect. ;)

[steveaki13]

It wouldn't because the pursuing car would benefit from the slipstream effect. ;)

You cant stop natural occurances in Racing, you can stop artifical gimmicks ruining a sport.

Anyway the car passed can use that to gain the place back straight away on the next or even same straight. With DRS one driver cant fight back for at least a lap.

Slipstreaming isnt biased as soon as your behind its your friend. DRS is biased to the one who happens to be behind for the whole next lap. Let DRS be used for a certain period each lap, or all lap as early as you dare apply it.

There must be a better way

[Garry Walker]

Does anyone remember any DRS passes that actually were awesome to watch? I don't. They are all about just pressing a button and getting ahead. Completely meaningless. Overtaking has been devalued and it means nothing these days. Also, defensive skills mean nothing these days, because they can't fight against DRS.

Whoever came up with this awful idea needs to spend 6 hours in a dungeon with Max Mosley.

[steveaki13]

Seems like Garry & I are on the same page because I agree 100% and said almost exactly the same

[EuroTroll]

Does anyone remember any DRS passes that actually were awesome to watch? I don't. They are all about just pressing a button and getting ahead. Completely meaningless. Overtaking has been devalued and it means nothing these days. Also, defensive skills mean nothing these days, because they can't fight against DRS.


Again I say, why must passing be so "meaningful" and special? Because that's what we got used to over the past few decades?

Yes, defensive skills are no longer a necessity. So what? Things change. Other skills are now at the forefront.

Many of us - not all, but many - had been complaining for decades that overtaking was too difficult. Now that they've finally done something about it, I'm happy. It may not be the perfect solution, but it's a solution nevertheless.

[EuroTroll]

Anyway the car passed can use that to gain the place back straight away on the next or even same straight. With DRS one driver cant fight back for at least a lap.

Slipstreaming isnt biased as soon as your behind its your friend. DRS is biased to the one who happens to be behind for the whole next lap.

That is true. It doesn't work exactly the same as slipstreaming in ye olde days, but similarly.


There must be a better way

Any ideas? ;)

[TheFamousEccles]

Any Ideas?

Less aero - much less, or DRS deployable at any stage, the only limit being how brave the driver is. Mechanical grip is the future direction IMO - aero of the type seen on the current crop of cars is of little relevance to the real world (though one could argue that F1 bears little resemblance to the real world) and - as noted in a few posts above - makes the old fashioned slip streaming duels a virtual impossibility given the "dirty air" effect. Aerodynamics still has a place in the pinnacle of the sport, but less reliance on this and more emphasis on mechanical grip would really add some spice.

Oh, and too much horsepower - make the things challenging, with gear changes done off the steering wheel. Sequential is still fine, but the lever should be separate from the steering.

Technology has a place, and the changes to the formula from 2014 onward seem to be embracing other "hybrid" types of power sources and importantly, energy harvesting, but racing is what we all come to see. Maybe reintroduce active suspension, adjustable on the fly by the driver?

Some random thoughts whilst I avoid the crap that is on the TV... :dozey:

[EuroTroll]

Well, doing away with wings would solve the problem immediately, and there wouldn't be a need for DRS. And I wouldn't be against it! Why should cars have wings, anyway? ;)

[AndyL]

Well, doing away with wings would solve the problem immediately, and there wouldn't be a need for DRS. And I wouldn't be against it! Why should cars have wings, anyway? ;)

Advertising :)

But when you're right, you're right...
http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee23/L_Andy/dino/dino2.jpg

[rjbetty]

Does anyone remember any DRS passes that actually were awesome to watch? I don't. They are all about just pressing a button and getting ahead. Completely meaningless. Overtaking has been devalued and it means nothing these days. Also, defensive skills mean nothing these days, because they can't fight against DRS.

Whoever came up with this awful idea needs to spend 6 hours in a dungeon with Max Mosley.

DRS stopped Michael Schumacher from getting 2nd in Canada 2011, preventing him claiming his deserved reward for an excellent drive. If Webber and Jenson had been able to pass him without DRS, fair enough. But as it was, they just flicked their switch and breezed past while Michael was defenceless. :mad:

I don't like that that the person in front has to just sit with their hands tied behind their back like that. It's why I lean towards disliking DRS though I tolerate it by thinking of how artificially hard it is to follow in dirty air...

But I do think maybe keep KERS, dump DRS. KERS is very relevant to road cars and I'm impressed with how F1 has already improved them from massive bulky batteries to seemingly much more compact and efficient units now. But for some reason, Red Bull Techologies still consistently struggle to get the KERS unit on just ONE of their cars to work properly.



Then again, DRS might be relevant to road cars after all. I think there should be DRS zones on the M25, so that when you get within 1 sec of someone, you flip your switch and overtake.

[Jag_Warrior]

You cant stop natural occurances in Racing, you can stop artifical gimmicks ruining a sport.

Anyway the car passed can use that to gain the place back straight away on the next or even same straight. With DRS one driver cant fight back for at least a lap.

Slipstreaming isnt biased as soon as your behind its your friend. DRS is biased to the one who happens to be behind for the whole next lap. Let DRS be used for a certain period each lap, or all lap as early as you dare apply it.

There must be a better way

I wouldn't be against having DRS dictated by time rather than location. That's how KERS and the Push2Pass systems tend to work - although I don't care for KERS all that much.

As for these "defensive driving skills" that people are mentioning, I don't see it and I've never seen it. We have one example that I can think of that was interesting. And that was Senna holding up a train in a slow car. But he was also the same guy who had the skills to execute one of the best passes of all time: an off line pass in the rain at Donington. We knew that he had the skills to pass, so, that he could prevent himself from being passed was a bit more acceptable. But generally, it's the most boring, frustrating thing to watch. IMO, it takes no "skill" to chop a faster car's nose off or push someone into the grass when they try to pass you. Heck, Danica Patrick in a Marussia could do that. What actual skill does that take?

There were a lot of great passes last year resulting from DRS. Hamilton on Vettel being one. Schumacher vs. Raikkonen at Spa being another good DRS battle. Silverstone had some as well. I think the racing in F1 over these past two or three seasons has been fantastic. Like I said, I've not seen that DRS allows a slower car to pass (and stay in front of) a faster car. So it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I like it... though I have no issue with the DRS rules being further refined or modified. I'm not sure how many people know what this is, but DRS is not the same sort of aerodynamic gimmick as say, the Hanford Device that CART used years ago. Now that was a pure gimmick that produced totally meaningless passes. That's not what DRS is and that's not what it does.

[Wasted Talent]

Does anyone remember any DRS passes that actually were awesome to watch? I don't.

Yes, British GP last year!

Alonso passed Lewis on Wellington Straight with DRS but Lewis got a great tow behind him anyway and ducked back out at the end of the straight. Pity his tyres were shot and he couldn't stay in front round the complex....

WT

[wedge]

Again I say, why must passing be so "meaningful" and special? Because that's what we got used to over the past few decades?

Yes, defensive skills are no longer a necessity. So what? Things change. Other skills are now at the forefront.

Many of us - not all, but many - had been complaining for decades that overtaking was too difficult. Now that they've finally done something about it, I'm happy. It may not be the perfect solution, but it's a solution nevertheless.

If anyone has seen restrictor plate races in NASCAR or anyone remember the Hanford Device in CART - so many passing for the lead it became meaningless.

In football a close game that has 7/8 goal thriller doesn't necessarily mean it waw a great game (more likely the defending was atrocious).

[AndyL]

There were a lot of great passes last year resulting from DRS. Hamilton on Vettel being one.

That's an interesting one to bring up, it shows that DRS passes aren't necessarily a "gimme" and that defence is still possible. On that occasion Vettel thought that he would have been able to hold Hamilton off for the rest of the race without the intervention of Karthikeyan.

By adjusting the positions of the DRS lines, the FIA have a means to calibrate DRS so that it just cancels out the "dirty air" problem, and no more. Clearly they have not got it right on all circuits yet, but over time it should get better.

I completely agree with everyone who says that DRS sucks pretty badly as a concept. But it still sucks less than the Trulli-train-style races and pit-passing that we had before. Who doesn't remember the frustration of seeing some prodigiously talented driver, in a fast car, being effectively eliminated from a race because he had the misfortune to spend 20 laps stuck behind some journeyman in a car 2 seconds a lap slower -- with no particular defensive skills required.



Then again, DRS might be relevant to road cars after all. I think there should be DRS zones on the M25, so that when you get within 1 sec of someone, you flip your switch and overtake.
They should definitely have a DRS zone for trucks on the 2-lane section of the M11!

[gloomyDAY]

Drivers should be able to deploy turtle shells like in Mario Kart 64.

[rjbetty]

Drivers should be able to deploy turtle shells like in Mario Kart 64.

I wouldn't mind if they spread some collectibles over the motorways like invincibility stars either.

[Garry Walker]

Again I say, why must passing be so "meaningful" and special? Because that's what we got used to over the past few decades? Yes. Because that is what I prefer.

Yes, defensive skills are no longer a necessity. So what? Things change. Other skills are now at the forefront.
Pushing a button? Yeah, what a skill.


Many of us - not all, but many - had been complaining for decades that overtaking was too difficult. Now that they've finally done something about it, I'm happy. It may not be the perfect solution, but it's a solution nevertheless.Solution? This is like having a toothache and then getting your head chopped off.
I never complained about a lack of overtaking, it has never been that important to me. I prefer one quality skillful move over 25 meaningless DRS passes that you know will happen anyway. There used to be loads of defensive drives that you could admire - a guy in a clearly slower car holding up faster guys and taking the win. Nowadays you know the guy with DRS will get blow past the guy in front.
DRS passes are meaningless to me, they take away my enjoyment from F1. I'd rather watch races with ZERO overtaking than the DRS crapfests we have now.

[steveaki13]

Yes. Because that is what I prefer.

Pushing a button? Yeah, what a skill.
Solution? This is like having a toothache and then getting your head chopped off.
I never complained about a lack of overtaking, it has never been that important to me. I prefer one quality skillful move over 25 meaningless DRS passes that you know will happen anyway. There used to be loads of defensive drives that you could admire - a guy in a clearly slower car holding up faster guys and taking the win. Nowadays you know the guy with DRS will get blow past the guy in front.
DRS passes are meaningless to me, they take away my enjoyment from F1. I'd rather watch races with ZERO overtaking than the DRS crapfests we have now.

Garry I couldn't have put it better myself. Glad I am not alone in my hate for DRS.

[rjbetty]

Garry I couldn't have put it better myself. Glad I am not alone in my hate for DRS.

Jacques Villeneuve also hates it - but then, he hates everything. :p

These points are winning me over though. I thought Canada 2003 was pretty good, and was in no way spoiled by Michael defending from the Williams and Alonso as the four of them trailed in formation in the final part of the race.

Imagine what Jarama '81 would have been like with DRS. :(


EDIT: Now that I think of it, I remember when everyone was complaining about the lack of overtaking. I always remember that I was never that bothered about it. I was much more concerned with how samey everything was and how un-level the playing field was, and the driver aids (which must never be allowed to return) Those are what killed it for me.

[rjbetty]

Seems like Garry & I are on the same page because I agree 100% and said almost exactly the same

Yeah you are on the same page. In fact your post is directly below his! ;)

[EuroTroll]

Pushing a button? Yeah, what a skill.

I was refering to all the other skills that are necessary for covering a set distance in the least amount of time. A.k.a. racing. ;)


I'd rather watch races with ZERO overtaking than the DRS crapfests we have now.

That makes absolutely no sense to me, but hey: to each their own. :)

[steveaki13]

Canada 2003 had a great ending.
The Williams looked on for the win from what I remember and somehow Michael got ahead and they piled up behind. Then Alonso in the renault caught them.

rjbetty am I right that Williams asked one Ralf to move over for Montoya at some point but Ralf wouldn't let him? Or was that another race?

I seem to remember a message like:

Engineer: Have a go at Michael or let Juan Pablo have a go.
Ralf: Why hes not even keeping up with me.

With your super recall you could remind me if I have got it wrong.

[wedge]

I was refering to all the other skills that are necessary for covering a set distance in the least amount of time. A.k.a. racing. ;)

Catching a driver and passing him is one thing, doing it with the aid of DRS is another.

[EuroTroll]

Catching a driver and passing him is one thing, doing it with the aid of DRS is another.

Of course. And so...?

[jens]

Regarding solutions I can propose one thing that has come to my mind.

Less reliance on wings/downforce and more reliance on ground effects. Because ground effect doesn't affect your speed through the corners, while following another car. While as we know, cars lose downforce, when they follow other cars close in the corners.

By the way, in the late 2000's exactly the same factor was a reason, why there were many overtakes in GP2, while F1 was still quite difficult in terms of overtaking.

[rjbetty]

Canada 2003 had a great ending.
The Williams looked on for the win from what I remember and somehow Michael got ahead and they piled up behind. Then Alonso in the renault caught them.

rjbetty am I right that Williams asked one Ralf to move over for Montoya at some point but Ralf wouldn't let him? Or was that another race?

I seem to remember a message like:

Engineer: Have a go at Michael or let Juan Pablo have a go.
Ralf: Why hes not even keeping up with me.

With your super recall you could remind me if I have got it wrong.

:) I can't remember hearing about that. I do remember people saying they would have like Montoya to have a go as they felt he would make moe effort in trying to get past Micael, but I never remember hearing if Ralf's engineer ever said it. Alonso did get fastest lap though IIRC. :)

úp cho ngÃ*y cu?i tu?n nÃ*o :D

[call_me_andrew]

Letting drivers control the wings is a noble idea, but limiting it to a few "zones" makes it a gimmick.


Here is the battle I talked about. Albeit only the final 3 laps of it before it ended in tears. DRS would have seen them all pass Montoya before it got to this point and the field would have spread out.



As soon as Schumacher got ahead of Montoya, Montoya could have turned on his DRS and passed Schumacher.