Gay young man gets beaten up by police during Gay Mardi Gras in Sydney

[Valve Bounce]

Some of the footage is distressing and I would give this warning before anyone watches the video footage. :Police accused of Mardi Gras brutality as cuffed man 'slammed on ground' | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national-news/police-accused-of-mardi-gras-brutality/story-fncynjr2-1226591264039)

I felt ill after watching that video. Police treated killer/drug lord Carl Williams and also the rapist/murderer of Jill Meagher much better than this brutal attack on a defenseless Gay youth.
I think this particular policeman should be sacked; maybe he could get a job as a waterside worker on the docks.

[rjbetty]

I agree that the officer should be sacked, or at least severely disciplined.

I dislike the word "homophobia" as I feel it's very overused and is nomally used against anyone who simply has the slightest disagreement, which they have a total right to; and no matter how friendly and peaceful they are about it.

But this is totally different. Now this is what I think is nasty and prejudiced; the guy being attacked like that. :(

I don't think the cop should get a job at the docks: That should go to someone who is out of work, deserves it, wants it, and is willing to work hrd.

[Valve Bounce]

I don't think the cop should get a job at the docks: That should go to someone who is out of work, deserves it, wants it, and is willing to work hrd.

I guess you are right. But it is hard work, and this cop deserves to be put somewhere that requires hard work, and where bullying is not tolerated.

I just read that this young gay lad has been charged by the police with resisting arrest. That hearing will attract one heck of a demonstration.

[Koz]

The first video shows him taking a swing at the cops at 2 seconds, before he is handcuffed...
It isn't not all that surprising he got that something after that.

If he hadn't done that maybe he wouldn't have been treated like he was. Not that I'm condoning it, but it's common knowledge if you are assault cops, you're gonna get some retribution.


Also, what does this have to do with the guy being gay? This kind of thing happens every day, would the attention be any different if he wasn't gay?

[Tazio]

I'm not backing the cop but this kid did through a haymaker at him! :confused:
In this neck of the woods you would get a hell of a lot worse!

[TheFamousEccles]

Yep Koz, his being gay is everything. It sells papers/gets clicks as far as the Murdochcracy is concerned. Otherwise how would an ill-informed and otherwise apathetic public get its daily outrage portion?

[EuroTroll]

Yep Koz, his being gay is everything. It sells papers/gets clicks as far as the Murdochcracy is concerned. Otherwise how would an ill-informed and otherwise apathetic public get its daily outrage portion?

Exactly. We need our daily outrage portion, and I'm very thankful to Valve Bounce for providing me with mine. :D

[Valve Bounce]

OK1 I never saw the first video, and this must have been posted after I first posted this thread. I'll have a look at it.

[rjbetty]

Yep Koz, his being gay is everything. It sells papers/gets clicks as far as the Murdochcracy is concerned. Otherwise how would an ill-informed and otherwise apathetic public get its daily outrage portion?

Ohh I didn't realise this! In that case...

(ok I have a confession - I didn't actually watch the video cos I couldn't get it to work...)

[Valve Bounce]

Yep Koz, his being gay is everything. It sells papers/gets clicks as far as the Murdochcracy is concerned. Otherwise how would an ill-informed and otherwise apathetic public get its daily outrage portion?

Actually, it has nothing to do with Murdoch. You are totally wrong on this count. The fact that this footage was postage on Youtube and scored around 150,000 hits earlier today created the interest and public outrage.
And to underscore how wrong your comment was, this is also clearly reported in the Fairfax press. However, I stress that the interest was sparked by the Youtube video. Police brutality at Mardi Gras parade in Sydney - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Police+brutality+at+Mardi+Gra s+parade+in+Sydney&oq=Police+brutality+at+Mardi+Gras+parade+in+Sydney&gs_l=youtube.3...15980.33930.0.34403.47.40.0.7.7.0 .221.6280.10j14j16.40.0...0.0...1ac.1.njKsol0wbcU)

Personally, I don't think any youth, whatever he has done, should be treated like this after he had been imobilised by having his hands handcuffed behind his back. This is what I would like you to respond to. Carl Williams wasn't treated like that, neither was Tony Mokbel.

[Valve Bounce]

Ohh I didn't realise this! In that case...

(ok I have a confession - I didn't actually watch the video cos I couldn't get it to work...)

Well, you can check my link on Youtube if you like. However, it is very distressing, so just press the stop button if you don't want to watch any further.

[Valve Bounce]

The first video shows him taking a swing at the cops at 2 seconds, before he is handcuffed...
It isn't not all that surprising he got that something after that.

If he hadn't done that maybe he wouldn't have been treated like he was. Not that I'm condoning it, but it's common knowledge if you are assault cops, you're gonna get some retribution.



Also, what does this have to do with the guy being gay? This kind of thing happens every day, would the attention be any different if he wasn't gay?

OK! I have checked all the videos several and I have not been able to see this guy "take a swing" at the cop. Certainly all videos do not show any blood on the cop nor was there any indication that he had been hit or attacked.

And your last sentence, well yes! it has a lot to do with the youth being gay. This was a gay Mardi ras, and this particular group of police was not from Sydney but were brought in from out of Sydney to help with the parade.

And this particular policeman tried to intimidate witnesses who were filming this incident, as did anther policeman in his group. The Police commissioner has already said he would take this policeman aside and and tell him where filming is not wrong. If you don't believe me, you can check the updated website that I posed in the lead article.

[airshifter]

I can't see the video as it won't load from the link, but to me being gay shouldn't be an issue.

Police brutality of any type shouldn't be tolerated as they are professionals trained to deal with unruly situations. When I was in the military they used volunteers to train cops in such situations and we gave them hell. But at the same time I understand that even a good cop could use poor judgement at times, and they should only be expected to take so much before one of them "snaps".

[Valve Bounce]

I can't see the video as it won't load from the link, but to me being gay shouldn't be an issue.

Police brutality of any type shouldn't be tolerated as they are professionals trained to deal with unruly situations. When I was in the military they used volunteers to train cops in such situations and we gave them hell. But at the same time I understand that even a good cop could use poor judgement at times, and they should only be expected to take so much before one of them "snaps".

If you look up "Police Brutality at Sydney Mardi Gras" in youtube, you will find the videos.

In fact, I just found it on Google as well.

[TheFamousEccles]

Valve, you are right - I just use the term "Murdochcracy" as a kind of collective pronoun for almost all main stream media. Your original post was linked to a News.com.au article, so I just left it at that. Fairfax are just Murdoch lite in my eyes.

Airshifter - you are correct to IMO, his orientation shouldn't be a factor in reporting police brutality, but it is.

[BDunnell]

I can't see the video as it won't load from the link, but to me being gay shouldn't be an issue.

Police brutality of any type shouldn't be tolerated as they are professionals trained to deal with unruly situations. When I was in the military they used volunteers to train cops in such situations and we gave them hell. But at the same time I understand that even a good cop could use poor judgement at times, and they should only be expected to take so much before one of them "snaps".

They seem to 'snap' all too easily.

[BDunnell]

Airshifter - you are correct to IMO, his orientation shouldn't be a factor in reporting police brutality, but it is.

Well, it is in this instance, given the nature of the event at which the incident took place.

[Koz]

OK! I have checked all the videos several and I have not been able to see this guy "take a swing" at the cop. Certainly all videos do not show any blood on the cop nor was there any indication that he had been hit or attacked.


Video: Mardi Gras incident (http://video.news.com.au/2340853617/Mardi-Gras-incident)

Two seconds in. He clearly lands a punch on a cop. (I can't tell if it's the same cop or not)


And your last sentence, well yes! it has a lot to do with the youth being gay. This was a gay Mardi ras, and this particular group of police was not from Sydney but were brought in from out of Sydney to help with the parade.

Are you saying that cop treated him like that because he was gay?

I don't think the cops went it, picked him randomly from a crowd, and had him on the floor.
There was a reason they were trying to arrest him, if he didn't try to smack a cop this would not have happened.

Is it right what the cop did?
No way in hell. But this stuff, happens and it happens a lot. It is a regular occurrence.

Actually, I would expect worse if you try to hit a cop.

Moral of the story?
Don't resist arrest, don't punch cops.


Anyway my point is, this has nothing to do with the guy being gay and everything to do with police culture.
It is deeply embedded and changes need to come, from within and without. By labeling this as an act of homophobia, we are missing the point, and sweeping aside the core issues.
Look what cops do to rioters, hell look at what is happening in South Africa, if you haven't heard: South African police investigated for murder - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfZ4MxjAixk)

This isn't isolated, this kind of police culture is present everywhere. In every country, it isn't limited to assaulting gays. This is more prevalent and less visible as the lower down the social order you go. If this was an abo, a maori or a black guy, no one would have cared or thought twice. Meh.

[BDunnell]

Anyway my point is, this has nothing to do with the guy being gay and everything to do with police culture.
It is deeply embedded and changes need to come, from within and without. By labeling this as an act of homophobia, we are missing the point, and sweeping aside the core issues.

You are right — but it still might very well have been a homophobic incident. It is impossible for any of us to state categorically that it wasn't. After all, we don't know whether anything was said by the policeman/policemen involved.

[Garry Walker]

ahh yes, the gay parades - best way to make provoke hatred towards gay community.


The first video shows him taking a swing at the cops at 2 seconds, before he is handcuffed...
It isn't not all that surprising he got that something after that. Yep. He tried to be all tough, trying to hit a policeman, well he got what he coming to him. Him crying like a little kid when he was given some tough treatment of course adds to the "drama".



Also, what does this have to do with the guy being gay? This kind of thing happens every day, would the attention be any different if he wasn't gay? When it happens daily, no one cares much about it nor does it become important news that is shown on TV 24/7. But if it happens to a gay or to a black, then the cries of homophobia and racism will be neverending. Stupid and vomit inducing.


Video: Mardi Gras incident (http://video.news.com.au/2340853617/Mardi-Gras-incident)

Two seconds in. He clearly lands a punch on a cop. (I can't tell if it's the same cop or not)
Well, that settles it. The best way to get treated badly by cops is to hit a cop. Good on this guy for having a brain.



Are you saying that cop treated him like that because he was gay? Don't you know? Anytime someone hits someone who is gay, that is automatically homophobia and biggest crime ever. It could never be for other reasons, no, it must be hatred of homos.



This isn't isolated, this kind of police culture is present everywhere. In every country, it isn't limited to assaulting gays. This is more prevalent and less visible as the lower down the social order you go. If this was an abo, a maori or a black guy, no one would have cared or thought twice. Meh. If this happened to a black guy you can bet your ass that it would have received a huge amount of attention.


You are right — but it still might very well have been a homophobic incident. It is impossible for any of us to state categorically that it wasn't. After all, we don't know whether anything was said by the policeman/policemen involved.
Actually, what does it matter if it was a homophobic incident? If the policeman attacked him because he was ginger or blonde or just a generally bad douche who told the cop something vulgar, would that make it any less of a (hate) crime?

I really don't see much reasons for the OP being such a drama queen over this incident.

[Daniel]

You are right — but it still might very well have been a homophobic incident. It is impossible for any of us to state categorically that it wasn't. After all, we don't know whether anything was said by the policeman/policemen involved.

Agree, but it seems to be being presented as gay bashing which isn't right. Take out the guys sexuality and the location of the incident and he might still have copped the same beating, but the papers wouldn't have been involved. Violence of any sort, especially homophobic violence shouldn't be tolerated, but the papers shouldn't get involved in speculating and perhaps inventing something that doesn't exist.

[BDunnell]

Agree, but it seems to be being presented as gay bashing which isn't right.

How can you say 'Agree' and then make the same assertion which I said is impossible?

[Daniel]

How can you say 'Agree' and then make the same assertion which I said is impossible?

I wasn't saying that it wasn't, I was merely saying that the papers have put that slant on it when they also don't know.

[BDunnell]

ahh yes, the gay parades - best way to make provoke hatred towards gay community.

Yep. He tried to be all tough, trying to hit a policeman, well he got what he coming to him. Him crying like a little kid when he was given some tough treatment of course adds to the "drama".

When it happens daily, no one cares much about it nor does it become important news that is shown on TV 24/7. But if it happens to a gay or to a black, then the cries of homophobia and racism will be neverending. Stupid and vomit inducing.


Well, that settles it. The best way to get treated badly by cops is to hit a cop. Good on this guy for having a brain.

Don't you know? Anytime someone hits someone who is gay, that is automatically homophobia and biggest crime ever. It could never be for other reasons, no, it must be hatred of homos.

If this happened to a black guy you can bet your ass that it would have received a huge amount of attention.


Actually, what does it matter if it was a homophobic incident? If the policeman attacked him because he was ginger or blonde or just a generally bad douche who told the cop something vulgar, would that make it any less of a (hate) crime?

I really don't see much reasons for the OP being such a drama queen over this incident.

A post typical of the thoroughly nasty, bigoted, negative, miserable, inarticulate and intolerant nature you never fail to put across whenever you contribute on here. Why such a significant problem with anyone different from yourself? This is what your views boil down to.

[Garry Walker]

A post typical of the thoroughly nasty, bigoted, negative, miserable, inarticulate and intolerant nature you never fail to put across whenever you contribute on here. Why such a significant problem with anyone different from yourself? This is what your views boil down to.

Please point out my grammar errors - I am sure I make plenty of them as english is not my native language. I would gladly learn it from such obvious masters as yourself.
You of course do not surprise me with your "attack the poster whose views you don't agree with" style, that is and has been your modus operandi for as long as I remember your posts here. In fact, I don't think there is any poster here who uses personal attacks more than you do.

Other than that, what exactly about my post triggered your attack? That I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is worse than other attacks? That I don't consider it any less of a hate crime to hit someone because he is ginger than to hit someone because he is gay. That I think one is an idiot for hitting the police and then crying like a little child instead of being a man? That I think the words homophobia and racism have been overused to the extreme? I await.

[BDunnell]

Please point out my grammar errors - I am sure I make plenty of them as english is not my native language. I would gladly learn it from such obvious masters as yourself.

I'm afraid that, until you tell us which your native language is, I will be tempted not to believe that English isn't your mother tongue. Whatever the truth, you do come across as extremely rude.



You of course do not surprise me with your "attack the poster whose views you don't agree with" style, that is and has been your modus operandi for as long as I remember your posts here. In fact, I don't think there is any poster here who uses personal attacks more than you do.

In this instance, I feel personally affronted by your attitude. How else should I respond? In any case, the last time I made similar remarks about you they seemed to meet with widespread agreement, so I'm not sure I'm being unnecessarily controversial in my description.



Other than that, what exactly about my post triggered your attack? That I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is worse than other attacks? That I don't consider it any less of a hate crime to hit someone because he is ginger than to hit someone because he is gay. That I think one is an idiot for hitting the police and then crying like a little child instead of being a man? That I think the words homophobia and racism have been overused to the extreme? I await.

Your attitudes on many issues indicate that you are someone with difficulties in accepting the fact that people exist who do not conform to your own narrow view of what constitutes a norm. You have this very evening said that one reason you do not mourn the death of Hugo Chavez is because he is a socialist. You dislike the staging of gay parades to the extent that you consider it justified for people to hate the gay community as a result of them. You refer above to 'being a man' as though there is only one definition — the rude, tough, straight guy like you. These and other examples do not indicate to me that, to put it mildly, you're especially open-minded. In short, I don't like people with views such as yours. This is the reason for my 'attack' on you, and I don't consider it unreasonable.

Nowhere would I argue that a homophobic crime is any worse than any other offence, but to seek, as you do, to deny that homophobia should be viewed with seriousness as a motivation for crime is unacceptable. Is hitting someone because they're ginger as unacceptable as hitting someone because they're gay? Well, I don't believe hitting someone because they happen to be anything — ginger, gay, whatever — is acceptable.

[Garry Walker]

I'm afraid that, until you tell us which your native language is, I will be tempted not to believe that English isn't your mother tongue. Whatever the truth, you do come across as extremely rude. Funny.
How about I put this bet to you. You ask Mark/Pino or any admin/mod really, if posts from my IP come from an english speaking country or not. If they say they do, I will leave this forum. If they say the posts from me don't come from english speaking country's IP, you leave, but not before posting a topic saying how you have always secretly admired me. You can take this bet whenever you want. That said, I kindly asked you to point out my grammar erros fully admitting I make them and as the nice person you are, instead you called me a liar.


In this instance, I feel personally affronted by your attitude. How else should I respond? In any case, the last time I made similar remarks about you they seemed to meet with widespread agreement, so I'm not sure I'm being unnecessarily controversial in my description.
Of course a man who so often complains about the language of others, you are so very often guilty of using personal attacks on many people here. Hypocrite is the word that describes you perfectly.



Your attitudes on many issues indicate that you are someone with difficulties in accepting the fact that people exist who do not conform to your own narrow view of what constitutes a norm. That is just so funny coming from you.


You dislike the staging of gay parades to the extent that you consider it justified for people to hate the gay community as a result of them. I do think gay parades are stupid. Have you seen videos/photos of what goes on in many of those parades? There are far many better and far more serious ways to fight for your rights. I wish they would use those.
But saying it justifies hatred of gays? I am sure you will find a quote for that from me. All I said was that it provokes hatred against them and it does that indeed.
I don't support violence on people just because they take part of a gay parade and for you to claim that is pretty rude from you.



You refer above to 'being a man' as though there is only one definition — the rude, tough, straight guy like you. I think being a man requires certain qualities indeed. A little bit of toughness indeed is one of those.
Rude? You said it, not me.



These and other examples do not indicate to me that, to put it mildly, you're especially open-minded. In short, I don't like people with views such as yours. This is the reason for my 'attack' on you, and I don't consider it unreasonable. Just more comedy from you.



Nowhere would I argue that a homophobic crime is any worse than any other offence, but to seek, as you do, to deny that homophobia should be viewed with seriousness as a motivation for crime is unacceptable. Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Where did I state what you right now stated? I will try to explain myself once again to you. I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is any worse than attacking him for any other reason. Why does it matter if you beat someone up because he is gay or because you think he looks like an idiot and he just got in your way? How is the first more of a hate crime or in any way worse than the second? They are both equally bad and should be treated as such. I don't think that is the case these days. Just look at the coverage this got and the reaction from some people. Like this was a crime rarely seen in the history of the world.


Is hitting someone because they're ginger as unacceptable as hitting someone because they're gay? Well, I don't believe hitting someone because they happen to be anything — ginger, gay, whatever — is acceptable. I would accept that absolutely. The only exceptions are of course when you hit someone in self-defence or in defence of someone who is attacked. Otherwise I don't think there is anything great about beating someone up. I support very harsh penalties on those people who act violently towards others.

[BDunnell]

Funny.
How about I put this bet to you. You ask Mark/Pino or any admin/mod really, if posts from my IP come from an english speaking country or not. If they say they do, I will leave this forum. If they say the posts from me don't come from english speaking country's IP, you leave, but not before posting a topic saying how you have always secretly admired me. You can take this bet whenever you want. That said, I kindly asked you to point out my grammar erros fully admitting I make them and as the nice person you are, instead you called me a liar.

Why the secrecy about the country from which you hail, then?



I do think gay parades are stupid. Have you seen videos/photos of what goes on in many of those parades? There are far many better and far more serious ways to fight for your rights. I wish they would use those.
But saying it justifies hatred of gays? I am sure you will find a quote for that from me. All I said was that it provokes hatred against them and it does that indeed.
I don't support violence on people just because they take part of a gay parade and for you to claim that is pretty rude from you.

If you believe that gay parades provoke hatred towards gay people, whose fault is that? It's not, to my mind, the fault of those staging or participating in the parade. This is an argument as fallacious as those stating that some rape victims are somehow to blame themselves rather than their attackers. The underlying message, while it may not be stated explicitly, is that they were 'asking for it'. This, I would argue, is what underpins your comments.

And yes, I do know what 'goes on' at these events. I have no objection to it so long as it doesn't disrupt others. That you don't like them is neither here nor there. Each to their own.



I think being a man requires certain qualities indeed. A little bit of toughness indeed is one of those.

An old-fashioned, narrow definition.



Is your reading comprehension really that bad? Where did I state what you right now stated? I will try to explain myself once again to you. I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is any worse than attacking him for any other reason. Why does it matter if you beat someone up because he is gay or because you think he looks like an idiot and he just got in your way? How is the first more of a hate crime or in any way worse than the second? They are both equally bad and should be treated as such. I don't think that is the case these days. Just look at the coverage this got and the reaction from some people. Like this was a crime rarely seen in the history of the world.

I would respectfully suggest that it's your comprehension that needs reviewing. 'I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is any worse than attacking him for any other reason', you say. This is not what I'm suggesting your view is at all — quite the opposite. Please, re-read what I posted. You'll see, quite clearly, that I don't feel one such attack is any 'worse' than another.



I would accept that absolutely. The only exceptions are of course when you hit someone in self-defence or in defence of someone who is attacked. Otherwise I don't think there is anything great about beating someone up. I support very harsh penalties on those people who act violently towards others.

This I find somewhat surprising given that you come across through your written contributions to this forum as someone with quite a violent way about them. But, on this particular point, your opinion is fair enough.

[airshifter]

You are right — but it still might very well have been a homophobic incident. It is impossible for any of us to state categorically that it wasn't. After all, we don't know whether anything was said by the policeman/policemen involved.

You have to look at both sides of the coin. If you state we can't prove it was due to the cop being a homophobe, then we can't prove the cop WAS a homophobe. And really it shouldn't matter if the cop was gay, straight, black, white, atheist, muslim, or anything else. The cop should have used better judgement in the arrest.

Did the kid hit a cop only because he was gay? That's breederphobic and he should serve a stiffer penalty!

[BDunnell]

You have to look at both sides of the coin. If you state we can't prove it was due to the cop being a homophobe, then we can't prove the cop WAS a homophobe. And really it shouldn't matter if the cop was gay, straight, black, white, atheist, muslim, or anything else. The cop should have used better judgement in the arrest.

Did the kid hit a cop only because he was gay? That's breederphobic and he should serve a stiffer penalty!

Of course, we can't prove anything — that's the job of an investigation — but I wasn't suggesting we could, was I? Seeking to find proof doesn't come into what I said.

[Garry Walker]

Why the secrecy about the country from which you hail, then?
Again, as I have said many times, doesn't concern you. So you take the bet or not?


If you believe that gay parades provoke hatred towards gay people, whose fault is that? The question is, what do gays want to achieve with those parades? Violence from someone is always the fault of the person committing it, but could gays gain far more trying other tactics? You don't build tolerance through provocation.


It's not, to my mind, the fault of those staging or participating in the parade. This is an argument as fallacious as those stating that some rape victims are somehow to blame themselves rather than their attackers. The underlying message, while it may not be stated explicitly, is that they were 'asking for it'. This, I would argue, is what underpins your comments.
Rape is a very different affair. In one you can't do anything, with the other, you can.


And yes, I do know what 'goes on' at these events. I have no objection to it so long as it doesn't disrupt others. That you don't like them is neither here nor there. Each to their own.
Well, I was "lucky" to be shown pictures of a particular gay parade where men urinated on eachother and one man jerked off on the window of a second floor shooting his load on the people watching him on the street. You really think events such as those are good for the reputation of gays or harmful?

An old-fashioned, narrow definition.
So a pushover man who cries over everything is better?

I would respectfully suggest that it's your comprehension that needs reviewing. 'I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is any worse than attacking him for any other reason', you say. This is not what I'm suggesting your view is at all — quite the opposite. Please, re-read what I posted. You'll see, quite clearly, that I don't feel one such attack is any 'worse' than another.
Here we go. I didn't deny that homophobia should not be viewed seriously as a motivation - that is what you said about me. What I said is that it is not any worse than any other motivation for attacking someone and should not get such a disproportionate amount of coverage. I explained that in my previous post.


This I find somewhat surprising given that you come across through your written contributions to this forum as someone with quite a violent way about them.
Nice one. I will be the bigger man and refrain from stooping to your level.

[BDunnell]

Again, as I have said many times, doesn't concern you. So you take the bet or not?

Of course not.



The question is, what do gays want to achieve with those parades? Violence from someone is always the fault of the person committing it, but could gays gain far more trying other tactics? You don't build tolerance through provocation.

I don't think you know very much about them beyond what you read in the media. They only provoke if people let themselves be provoked. Very often they are just a fun thing. Sometimes they are a means of upholding rights. They're not my cup of tea, but never would I suggest curbs on any form of demonstration — it's a basic right.



Rape is a very different affair. In one you can't do anything, with the other, you can.

But the underlying point remains the same — the fault is always with the individual doing the attacking.



Well, I was "lucky" to be shown pictures of a particular gay parade where men urinated on eachother and one man jerked off on the window of a second floor shooting his load on the people watching him on the street. You really think events such as those are good for the reputation of gays or harmful?

Really? Again, you'll forgive me if, without evidence, I take this with a pinch of salt. I'd also say this is an extreme example, and far from the norm.



So a pushover man who cries over everything is better?

They're still a man, though. I'd rather men cried over things than adopt a stance of mindless aggression all the time. Often, this betrays deeper-seated 'issues'. Very seldom do you find someone who always acts the 'tough guy' of whom this isn't true.



Here we go. I didn't deny that homophobia should not be viewed seriously as a motivation - that is what you said about me. What I said is that it is not any worse than any other motivation for attacking someone and should not get such a disproportionate amount of coverage. I explained that in my previous post.

And (the 'disproportionate coverage bit aside — there's no proof of this) I agreed, if you re-read what I wrote. It's comments like those above that render somewhat hard to take your comments about others not comprehending properly.

[Valve Bounce]

You are right — but it still might very well have been a homophobic incident. It is impossible for any of us to state categorically that it wasn't. After all, we don't know whether anything was said by the policeman/policemen involved.

This policeman had the youth on the ground and his foot on his back; then he made a call to Central Command on his Walkie Talkie. I would love to know what he said. That bit of a call would indicate whether it was homophobic or not, I reckon.

Yes! I finally saw the punch or attempt at a punch which I did not see before. This guy had just been slammed on the ground and he retaliated. It was stupid because he was outnumbered, out muscled, and outsized.

[BDunnell]

This policeman had the youth on the ground and his foot on his back; then he made a call to Central Command on his Walkie Talkie. I would love to know what he said. That bit of a call would indicate whether it was homophobic or not, I reckon.

I doubt it. Rather, what was said before the punches were thrown is more likely to be germane, I'd guess. But who can say at this stage?

[Roamy]

Sh!t Ben you act like this guy was your wife. He took a swing at the cop and got his ass kicked which is a good thing. Being a cop is a horrible job.
Further more inasmuch as you decided to drag Hugo in here. He was a Piece of Sh!t. His country is in shambles. He screwed his people over at every turn. With that much oil the people should be able to live a decent life and live in safety. Margarita Island used to be a beautiful tourist place. Now you
would be lucky to get out of there alive

[A FONDO]

I cant believe how many people in here say "being gay is not a problem"

are you outta your mind??????

[EuroTroll]

I cant believe how many people in here say "being gay is not a problem"

are you outta your mind??????

Yesss! :D Please stick around and defend your views. It's going to give me hours of entertainment! :D :laugh:

[Koz]

This policeman had the youth on the ground and his foot on his back; then he made a call to Central Command on his Walkie Talkie. I would love to know what he said. That bit of a call would indicate whether it was homophobic or not, I reckon.

Why do you want this to be an issue of sexuality?
It is completely irrelevant, other than promoting some kind of agenda - which has little to do with police brutality and a lot more to do with homophobia.


Yes! I finally saw the punch or attempt at a punch which I did not see before. This guy had just been slammed on the ground and he retaliated. It was stupid because he was outnumbered, out muscled, and outsized.

Why are you twisting things around?

The guy was slammed to the ground AFTER he punched a cop - while they were trying to arrest him, the events of the first video lead into the second.

The gay guy didn't retaliate, he punched a cop, while they were trying to arrest him for whatever reason, after this he was screaming to the camera "I didn't do anything wrong" - which clearly he did.

Mardi Gras incident video , shows Jamie Jackson throwing a punch at cop before other footage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgMCaM560bc)

Also, the guy admitted that he "tickled" (god knows what that means) a random woman on the street, which is why they were trying to arrest him...
A Current Affair speaks to brutality victim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTsJ5XB6Pn4)

[henners88]

I cant believe how many people in here say "being gay is not a problem"

are you outta your mind??????
How do you mean?

[BDunnell]

Why do you want this to be an issue of sexuality?
It is completely irrelevant, other than promoting some kind of agenda - which has little to do with police brutality and a lot more to do with homophobia.

How do you know? Were you there? It is impossible to say with any certainty that it was or wasn't a homophobic attack without knowing what the policeman said.

[BDunnell]

Sh!t Ben you act like this guy was your wife. He took a swing at the cop and got his ass kicked which is a good thing.

Only if you're a belligerent fool who's impressed by violence.


Being a cop is a horrible job.

And a lot of cops are horrible people. (Disclaimer — by no means all, and we don't know whether the one about whom we're talking is.)

[Knock-on]

ahh yes, the gay parades - best way to make provoke hatred towards gay community.

I don't agree with this although I admit I haven't been on a Gay Parade or witnessed the type of incidents you saw. However, in all the time I have known you, I have never known you to be a BS'er like some on here and accept your claim at face value. It would disgust me but I expect this is the exception rather than the norm a bit like steaming gangs at the Notting Hill festival are not indicitive of the event but merely a unfortunate by-product (a bit like the by-product a animal produces from food :D )


Yep. He tried to be all tough, trying to hit a policeman, well he got what he coming to him. Him crying like a little kid when he was given some tough treatment of course adds to the "drama".

That he tried to assault a Policeman is not in question and I hope he faces the appropiate punishment. However, the Police are trained professionals and although it's a difficult job, should still operate withing the confines of their training and the Law. This was OTT.


When it happens daily, no one cares much about it nor does it become important news that is shown on TV 24/7. But if it happens to a gay or to a black, then the cries of homophobia and racism will be neverending. Stupid and vomit inducing.

Totally agree. Violence is violence and getting outraged because of someones sexuality or race is just media hysterics. The bloke was out of order and so was the cop. It doesn't matter about anything else.


Well, that settles it. The best way to get treated badly by cops is to hit a cop. Good on this guy for having a brain.

He wasn't the sharpest tool in the box, was he ;)


Don't you know? Anytime someone hits someone who is gay, that is automatically homophobia and biggest crime ever. It could never be for other reasons, no, it must be hatred of homos.

If this happened to a black guy you can bet your ass that it would have received a huge amount of attention.


Again, sexuality is irrelevant as you say.


Actually, what does it matter if it was a homophobic incident? If the policeman attacked him because he was ginger or blonde or just a generally bad douche who told the cop something vulgar, would that make it any less of a (hate) crime?

I really don't see much reasons for the OP being such a drama queen over this incident.

I understand your points fully. I may not agree with some of them but you're very clear in what you're saying and you put your reasoning across in a somewhat forthright but acceptable way. I don't know why others choose not to comprehend the very clear English you used but I suspect it says more about them.

[Knock-on]

Please point out my grammar errors - I am sure I make plenty of them as english is not my native language. I would gladly learn it from such obvious masters as yourself.
You of course do not surprise me with your "attack the poster whose views you don't agree with" style, that is and has been your modus operandi for as long as I remember your posts here. In fact, I don't think there is any poster here who uses personal attacks more than you do.

Other than that, what exactly about my post triggered your attack? That I don't think attacking someone because he is gay is worse than other attacks? That I don't consider it any less of a hate crime to hit someone because he is ginger than to hit someone because he is gay. That I think one is an idiot for hitting the police and then crying like a little child instead of being a man? That I think the words homophobia and racism have been overused to the extreme? I await.

Well, I'm English yet my spelling and Grammer is much worse than yours. :D

As for the rest of it; spot on :up:

[BDunnell]

Again, sexuality is irrelevant as you say.

Again, I say: we don't know that. It might have been relevant; it might not. Without knowing what was said, the key factor in any such case, it's impossible to reach a conclusion.



I understand your points fully. I may not agree with some of them but you're very clear in what you're saying and you put your reasoning across in a somewhat forthright but acceptable way. I don't know why others choose not to comprehend the very clear English you used but I suspect it says more about them.

I have never said his English wasn't clear — I'm just not too keen on the content. And, if you read back, you'll see that he very clearly misunderstands me.

[Knock-on]

In this instance, I feel personally affronted by your attitude. How else should I respond?

It's your right to feel affronted. It's perfectly legal and part of every day life. However, you should respond in a manner that doesn't contravene forum rules. Your response was a sustained personal attack which is what gets many threads closed around here. Will you ever learn?


In any case, the last time I made similar remarks about you they seemed to meet with widespread agreement, so I'm not sure I'm being unnecessarily controversial in my description.

Perhaps you should have finished this sentance with '...in my opinion'?? ;)


Your attitudes on many issues indicate that you are someone with difficulties in accepting the fact that people exist who do not conform to your own narrow view of what constitutes a norm. You have this very evening said that one reason you do not mourn the death of Hugo Chavez is because he is a socialist. You dislike the staging of gay parades to the extent that you consider it justified for people to hate the gay community as a result of them. You refer above to 'being a man' as though there is only one definition — the rude, tough, straight guy like you. These and other examples do not indicate to me that, to put it mildly, you're especially open-minded. In short, I don't like people with views such as yours. This is the reason for my 'attack' on you, and I don't consider it unreasonable.

I think it was unreasonable but that's contrary to your opinion and not something to be taken seriously.


Nowhere would I argue that a homophobic crime is any worse than any other offence, but to seek, as you do, to deny that homophobia should be viewed with seriousness as a motivation for crime is unacceptable. Is hitting someone because they're ginger as unacceptable as hitting someone because they're gay? Well, I don't believe hitting someone because they happen to be anything — ginger, gay, whatever — is acceptable.

Which is exactly what he said. Re-read his post.

[Knock-on]

Again, I say: we don't know that. It might have been relevant; it might not. Without knowing what was said, the key factor in any such case, it's impossible to reach a conclusion.

It's for Garry to confirm but I understood his post to mean that violence is the crime here and it doesn't matter what sexuality, religion or colour the man was. IF , and it's a big IF, this man was treated harshly because of his sexuality, then that is bad but no worse than if he was attacked for being Black, fat, short, ginger, pimperly etc. The violence is wrong. The reason behind it is something that needs to be addressed.

Was this man arrested because he was Gay or because he felt empowered to assault women? If he gets his kicks for interfering with women, is he even Gay? Perhaps this cop was Hetrophobic :D

[Garry Walker]

Of course not.Good, that settles that then.



I don't think you know very much about them beyond what you read in the media. They only provoke if people let themselves be provoked. Very often they are just a fun thing. Sometimes they are a means of upholding rights. They're not my cup of tea, but never would I suggest curbs on any form of demonstration — it's a basic right. Well, I don't think they are a good way of getting their point across.



This policeman had the youth on the ground and his foot on his back; then he made a call to Central Command on his Walkie Talkie. I would love to know what he said. That bit of a call would indicate whether it was homophobic or not, I reckon.
What does it matter if it was homophobic or not? Who cares? The incident matters, not whether it was homophobic or gingerphobic.


I don't agree with this although I admit I haven't been on a Gay Parade or witnessed the type of incidents you saw. However, in all the time I have known you, I have never known you to be a BS'er like some on here and accept your claim at face value. It would disgust me but I expect this is the exception rather than the norm a bit like steaming gangs at the Notting Hill festival are not indicitive of the event but merely a unfortunate by-product (a bit like the by-product a animal produces from food :D ). Thanks :D I gave the links to dunnell, I recommend you don't look at them!

That he tried to assault a Policeman is not in question and I hope he faces the appropiate punishment. However, the Police are trained professionals and although it's a difficult job, should still operate withing the confines of their training and the Law. This was OTT.. Yes, I agree with this.


I understand your points fully. I may not agree with some of them but you're very clear in what you're saying and you put your reasoning across in a somewhat forthright but acceptable way. I don't know why others choose not to comprehend the very clear English you used but I suspect it says more about them. Thanks. Fortright is the only way I know :D



I have never said his English wasn't clear — I'm just not too keen on the content. And, if you read back, you'll see that he very clearly misunderstands me. You said my post was inarticulate. So yes, you pretty much said that my english was not clear.


It's for Garry to confirm but I understood his post to mean that violence is the crime here and it doesn't matter what sexuality, religion or colour the man was. IF , and it's a big IF, this man was treated harshly because of his sexuality, then that is bad but no worse than if he was attacked for being Black, fat, short, ginger, pimperly etc. The violence is wrong. The reason behind it is something that needs to be addressed.

Was this man arrested because he was Gay or because he felt empowered to assault women? If he gets his kicks for interfering with women, is he even Gay? Perhaps this cop was Hetrophobic :D
Yes, Knockie is right on the money here again.
I will give you an example. Ages ago when I still went to school, one guy there went a bit crazy and punched his classmate who ended up having a concussion. The reason was simple, he just did not like that guy. Just his personality was not acceptable to him. (I think they were both pricks btw :D ). A pretty nasty thing I would say. But if the incident had been because the victim was gay and the first guy just hated him for that and injured him in the very same way, would it make the incident any worse? Would it be any bigger of a hate crime? I don't think so. The victim will heal just as quickly, whether he was attacked because he was a homosexual or because someone just did not like his personality. So that is my view. I never understand the hysterics in media when someone beats up a homosexual or a black person. It is not like attacking them for the way they are is any worse than attacking others for the way they are or for their money. The unwarranted attack itself is bad enough and should never be accepted.

[pino]

Guys please do remember this is a family forum thank you :)

[Garry Walker]

Guys please do remember this is a family forum thank you :)

Ok, I think that was for the best.
However, if any of you wishes to see those links, then just send me a PM, I will gladly torture you with them :D .

[Valve Bounce]

Why do you want this to be an issue of sexuality?
It is completely irrelevant, other than promoting some kind of agenda - which has little to do with police brutality and a lot more to do with homophobia.



Why are you twisting things around?

The guy was slammed to the ground AFTER he punched a cop - while they were trying to arrest him, the events of the first video lead into the second.

The gay guy didn't retaliate, he punched a cop, while they were trying to arrest him for whatever reason, after this he was screaming to the camera "I didn't do anything wrong" - which clearly he did.

Mardi Gras incident video , shows Jamie Jackson throwing a punch at cop before other footage - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgMCaM560bc)

Also, the guy admitted that he "tickled" (god knows what that means) a random woman on the street, which is why they were trying to arrest him...
A Current Affair speaks to brutality victim - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTsJ5XB6Pn4)

OK! I think we may all have been wrong. This is what happened Before the videos above and before the guy was arrested'Settle down, Jamie!': Fresh video of Mardi Gras incident | News.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/national-news/settle-down-jamie-fresh-video-of-mardi-gras-incident/story-fncynjr2-1226593129329)

No Koz! I wasn't trying to twist anything around, just giving my own opinion on what may have happened, which I might add, I was quite wrong. After watching this video, the guy was lucky the police did not treat him more severely.

Koz! I was wrong in what I thought. Sorry! :(

Are we good?

[SGWilko]

Violence of any sort, especially homophobic

Why the need to single out the homophobic issue?

[yodasarmpit]

The videos provide no context, so it's difficult to determine what is actually happening other than someone being arrested and resisting.

[Daniel]

Why the need to single out the homophobic issue?

Ummm. because that's what we're talking about here? You seem rather intent on trying your hardest to find fault with my posts.....

[SGWilko]

Ummm. because that's what we're talking about here? You seem rather intent on trying your hardest to find fault with my posts.....

Actually, it's a man that got detained for resisting arrest having 'interfered' with a woman. That he is gay has no bearing. Your point suggested that violence against homosexuals had more 'weight' than violence against anybody else.

That's all.

[SGWilko]

You seem rather intent on trying your hardest to find fault with my posts.....

Paranoia?

[Daniel]

Actually, it's a man that got detained for resisting arrest having 'interfered' with a woman. That he is gay has no bearing. Your point suggested that violence against homosexuals had more 'weight' than violence against anybody else.

That's all.


Errr no :)

You're seeing things that aren't there. You have taken your own meaning from my statement, I was saying that hate crimes should carry more weight than just random violence. All violence is deplorable, hate crimes even moreso.

But you see what you want to see :wave:

[airshifter]

Agree, but it seems to be being presented as gay bashing which isn't right. Take out the guys sexuality and the location of the incident and he might still have copped the same beating, but the papers wouldn't have been involved. Violence of any sort, especially homophobic violence shouldn't be tolerated, but the papers shouldn't get involved in speculating and perhaps inventing something that doesn't exist.

This was what was stated. You didn't state hate crimes in general, but homophobic violence in specific. Had you said all hate motivated crimes against any bias we might have related it more as your intention. To me any physical beating of another human is somewhat a hate crime, though it may have been provoked or justified.

[Daniel]

This was what was stated. You didn't state hate crimes in general, but homophobic violence in specific. Had you said all hate motivated crimes against any bias we might have related it more as your intention. To me any physical beating of another human is somewhat a hate crime, though it may have been provoked or justified.

Airshifter, you've been taken in by the post of someone who goes out of their way to attack my posts. I feel that everyone deserves protection, be it a gay person who is beaten by a straight person because of them being gay or a straight person being beaten by a gay person because they're straight. Same goes for race, your choice of sporting team, what you wear or anything else that knuckledraggers focus on.

Perhaps I didn't say it loud and proud that my post was against all hate crimes and not just homophobia, but I'd like to think that people on here know me well enough to know that I'm the sort of person that dislikes all hate crimes.

[Spafranco]

Grammar should be lower case when in the middle of a sentence. G-r-a-m-m-a-r is the correct spelling.Gary Walker should have asked for his grammatical errors to be pointed out. His grammar on grammar was also incorrect.
Do I get points :) ?

[donKey jote]

here, 10 donkey points for you :up:
:mark:

[Knock-on]

I think we understand your view Dan. You think that hate crime is worse than the same crime being committed without hate. Am I correct?

So, for example, if someone targeting an oap to rob, beat up and murder, it is not as serious as someone robbing, beating up and murdering someone because they are Gay.

Your reasoning seems to be that because the perpetrator considers the oap to be vulnerable but doesn't necessarily hate them, then the crime, although deplorable, isn't as bad as the same crime committed against the Gay man.

I think they are equally as bad but then again, I don't discriminate against a group of people because of their race, religion, colour, sex, mobility or sexual orientation; either positively or negatively.

[Daniel]

I think we understand your view Dan. You think that hate crime is worse than the same crime being committed without hate. Am I correct?

So, for example, if someone targeting an oap to rob, beat up and murder, it is not as serious as someone robbing, beating up and murdering someone because they are Gay.

Your reasoning seems to be that because the perpetrator considers the oap to be vulnerable but doesn't necessarily hate them, then the crime, although deplorable, isn't as bad as the same crime committed against the Gay man.

I think they are equally as bad but then again, I don't discriminate against a group of people because of their race, religion, colour, sex, mobility or sexual orientation; either positively or negatively.



Well, and here's the strange thing, I can actually see the point of robbing an OAP..... you do what you do and you end up with their money and/or valuables. There's a point in that. Obviously I don't advocate it or think it's right, but it's not completely and utterly pointless like beating someone up because they're black, white, gay, straight or disabled. I know that's an incredibly cold way of looking at things, but being completely cold and rational, there is at least some point to robbing someone and there is no point beating up someone

These things are always going to be personal, I suspect most people would view a crime against a person with severe learning disabilities more harshly than one against someone who doesn't have learning difficulties.


IMHO when it comes to this sort of thing, it's all personal preference and for once I will say that there's no right or wrong answer.

[Knock-on]

Ahhh, I think I understand.

You're not saying that the same crime committed against different people (in my example, one gay and one old) should be treated any differently but that our perception is different.

Yes. I can see that. If someone with Downs is kicked to death by a bunch of yobs, we would be outraged where the level of outrage may not be as acute if its a 20ish young straight white able bodied male that suffers the same fate.

Now, perhaps the Downs sufferer was selected for hate reasons, perhaps because they were different or perhaps they were an easier target than a 20ish male but we would perceive one to be more serious.

Of course, both crimes are exactly the same level of seriousness as I'm sure we both agree. It's our outrage that's different :)

[SGWilko]

I can actually see the point of robbing an OAP..... you do what you do and you end up with their money and/or valuables. .

Assuming they are carrying some money and/or valuables of course. I do get the point but surely, applying the 'the law is blind' principle, both crimes - this and mugging/beating up someone cos you don't like 'em - are as bad as each other?

Skanky drug addicts are worse than your 'knuckledraggers' as they will stop at nothing for a few quid just for the next score.

[SGWilko]

Of course, both crimes are exactly the same level of seriousness as I'm sure we both agree. It's our outrage that's different :)

Indeed. It is a newspaper editors wet dream is outrage......

[Knock-on]

Indeed. It is a newspaper editors wet dream is outrage......

Some people think outrage against child abusers is just an synthetic over reaction yet are outraged over an allegedly gay man being assaulted by police. It's all perspective ;)