Sea Shephard's anti Whaling achievements

[Valve Bounce]

Against all odds and the might of the Japanese military, the Sea Shephard group have succeeded in turning around the might of the Japanese whaling fleet, its refueling tanker, and the Japanese military in the guise of a giant ice breaker and military personnel landing onto the icebreaker, then throwing stun grenades onto the Sea Shephard. The Japanese flotilla have finally abandoned the whaling and are leaving with only 87 whales harpooned, far short of the one thousand plus killings of previous years. don't know what my friends from other parts of the globe think of the Japanese killing huge numbers of whales in the guise of scientific research; my feelings are that if that is their intent, then I would use my Melacca hex powers to send another Tsunami their way.

I

[EuroTroll]

I'm not very informed on this issue. What is the real reason why the Japanese do it?

I wouldn't perhaps wish death and destruction on them, but killing huge numbers of species whose populations have been dwindling in recent centuries is certainly a disgusting thing to do. :down:

[donKey jote]

The number of people who still eat whale meat in Japan is also dwindling, but it's a cultural thing I guess. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/icons/icon13.gif
Bit like bullfighting, except bull meat doesn't have so much mercury :p

[Francis44]

Good that they were able to make progress on stopping the hunt.

[EuroTroll]

So they eat them? Why? Are whales particularly yummy?

[donKey jote]

Apparently it tastes a bit like horse, so yes: yummy ! :D

[Malbec]

Against all odds and the might of the Japanese military, the Sea Shephard group have succeeded in turning around the might of the Japanese whaling fleet, its refueling tanker, and the Japanese military in the guise of a giant ice breaker and military personnel landing onto the icebreaker, then throwing stun grenades onto the Sea Shephard. The Japanese flotilla have finally abandoned the whaling and are leaving with only 87 whales harpooned, far short of the one thousand plus killings of previous years. don't know what my friends from other parts of the globe think of the Japanese killing huge numbers of whales in the guise of scientific research; my feelings are that if that is their intent, then I would use my Melacca hex powers to send another Tsunami their way.

I

I'm no fan of whaling but I can't stand the lack of logic and hypocrisy of much of the anti whaling lobby and sea sheperd in particular.

It should be acceptable to hunt animals that are non-endangered, and the minke whales the Japanese hunt are not endangered. If anything there is evidence to suggest they should be culled as they compete for dwindling food resources with whale species that are genuinely endangered.

Why focus on Japan? Norway for the past few years has hunted more whales than Japan with no pretence of research whatsoever. Iceland also hunts 100s of minkes a year, an incredibly large number given their small population, yet there is little to no attention paid to them.

If these guys are serious about protecting rapidly dwindling species that are bordering extinction they need to take on the Chinese shark industry, problem with that of course is that sharks have an image problem and the Chinese will not hesitate to crush their fleet.

I also have a problem with the tactics used here by the activists, ramming the whalers, damaging their props and rudders is not acceptable whatever the cause as a US court case last week showed which classified Sea Shepherd as a pirate organisation.

It would be more productive IMO to spend money in Japan promoting whale spotting tours and the like to build up publib opinion against whalehunting but that won't happen because it doesn't generate publicity for sea shepherd.

If I was Japan i'd pull out of the iwc, let the whaling industry die then import all the whalemeat they need from Norway and Iceland....

[airshifter]

Great points Malbec as Japan does seem to get the majority of attention in regards to whaling.

And I can also agree that the Sea Shepards do have some radical tactics. But at the same time I have to give them great respect for literally putting their lives on the line to prevent something they feel is wrong. This not only brings international attention to the issues, but proves how dedicated they are. I personally think the Japanese whaling industry has used loopholes in scientific research laws to allow private profit, but that is simply my opinion. I will add however that that opinion was formed in part when I lived on Okinawa and saw first hand how the culture would disregard marine species harvest laws that those of us from the US would pay stiff fines or be jailed for.

[Rollo]

Why focus on Japan? Norway for the past few years has hunted more whales than Japan with no pretence of research whatsoever. Iceland also hunts 100s of minkes a year, an incredibly large number given their small population, yet there is little to no attention paid to them.


Two reasons:
1. Sea Shepherd operates from Melbourne and Hobart. I would make little sense for them in particular to operate near Norway.

2. Japan's whaling ships mainly operate south of 60°S which are waters covered by the Antarctic Treatys, the Convention for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources and specifically within Australian Antarctic Territory. Japan's whaling vessels operate within waters which are supposed to have no whaling vessels in them at all.
The Royal Australian Navy is too busy blowing up people in the Middle East to enforce anything that far south. I suppose Sea Shepherd assumes that it does a job it lieu of them.

[airshifter]

Good info Rollo. In regards to the below:



The Royal Australian Navy is too busy blowing up people in the Middle East to enforce anything that far south. I suppose Sea Shepherd assumes that it does a job it lieu of them.

I'd have to say if the Sea Shepherds continue to chase them off, it's probably helping the RAN conserve funds and other resources.

[Malbec]

Two reasons:
1. Sea Shepherd operates from Melbourne and Hobart. I would make little sense for them in particular to operate near Norway.

I was referring to the general thrust of the anti-whaling campaign of which Sea Shepherd is only part. The head of Sea Shepherd has at least paid lip service to Norway where he was arrested for trying to damage a whaler while in port.

Is it also not the case that Sea Shepherd is an international organisation that has chosen Australia as a base to attack the Japanese whalers rather than being a homegrown Australian group? If so why has it not sought to build a European base to cover Norway?


2. Japan's whaling ships mainly operate south of 60°S which are waters covered by the Antarctic Treatys, the Convention for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources and specifically within Australian Antarctic Territory. Japan's whaling vessels operate within waters which are supposed to have no whaling vessels in them at all.
The Royal Australian Navy is too busy blowing up people in the Middle East to enforce anything that far south. I suppose Sea Shepherd assumes that it does a job it lieu of them.

This is the kind of superficially impressive argument that anti-whaling campaigners use that has no substance whatsoever.

The Antarctic treaty does not cover commercial fishing or whaling. It does however protect the right of signatories to scientific research in Antarctica and its waters which is what the Japanese are doing (however cynical it may be). Most importantly however the Antarctic treaty in article 4 makes clear that the signatories do not recognise territorial claims on the continent and its waters. Australia and Japan are both signatories. The consensus is that Australia's territorial claim is not recognised by the vast majority of the countries on this planet.

The Convention for the Conservation of Antarctic Marine Living Resources does not cover whaling. It regulates and monitors fishing specifically for krill and toothfish. Visit their website and check out what they have to say about whaling (or not, since that lies outside their mandate).

Australian Antarctic Territory is a unilateral territorial claim that, as per the Antarctic treaty, is not recognised by countries other than those that also have similar territorial claims on the Antarctic. Since Australia is a signatory to the very same treaty I don't understand how they can both claim that land and remain signatory to a treaty that forfeits it.

Your claim that the RAN is too busy elsewhere to deal with whalers is amusing but inaccurate since Japanese whaling in Antarctic waters predates the Iraq war. The true reason is that any attempt by the Australians to exercise sovereignty in Antarctic waters is likely to result in a swift legal challenge which will almost certainly confirm that Australia's territorial claims are invalid. That would be rather humiliating wouldn't it?

What I understand the Japanese are doing that contravenes some treaty is bringing heavy fuel oil into Antarctic waters and that should be challenged through legal processes rather than what Sea Shepherd tried, which is to ram the ships while they were refuelling and trying to provoke a fuel leak.

[anthonyvop]

Sea Shepard practices Piracy and anyone who endangers a human life for the protection of an animal is scum.

There are times I wish there really was a Hell because if there was it would have a special, even nastier place for them.

Everyone I know who has spent any time at sea agrees with me.

[Joey Zyla]

Sea Shepard practices Piracy and anyone who endangers a human life for the protection of an animal is scum.

There are times I wish there really was a Hell because if there was it would have a special, even nastier place for them.

Everyone I know who has spent any time at sea agrees with me.

You, sir, are an extremely large bag of scum.

I've seen some of your other posts and have no clue as to how you have not been perma-banned yet.

[anthonyvop]

You, sir, are an extremely large bag of scum.

I've seen some of your other posts and have no clue as to how you have not been perma-banned yet.


Why? Because the truth pains you so? Because I dare question the dogma beaten into you?

Are you so afraid of what I have to say that you wish I was silenced?

I value the life of a human over the life of some animal that isn't even endangered. I value the Japanese crewman who is just trying to provide for his family over the Self-promoting, a-holes trying to kill him.

Don't like it? Too bad!

[call_me_andrew]

I wouldn't perhaps wish death and destruction on them, but killing huge numbers of species whose populations have been dwindling in recent centuries is certainly a disgusting thing to do. :down:

And in recent decades, their populations have been growing. Let the Japanese eat their whales, and let Paul Watson eat my feces!

[Joey Zyla]

Why? Because the truth pains you so? Because I dare question the dogma beaten into you?

Are you so afraid of what I have to say that you wish I was silenced?

I value the life of a human over the life of some animal that isn't even endangered. I value the Japanese crewman who is just trying to provide for his family over the Self-promoting, a-holes trying to kill him.

Don't like it? Too bad!

You really do need mental help.

[Joey Zyla]

And in recent decades, their populations have been growing. Let the Japanese eat their whales, and let Paul Watson eat my feces!

You sicken me, although I'm sure that was your intent.

[EuroTroll]

You, sir, are an extremely large bag of scum.

I've seen some of your other posts and have no clue as to how you have not been perma-banned yet.

It's actually stuff like that that are not allowed, Joey. Personal insults.. ;)

[Joey Zyla]

What an absolute joke of a "forum". :rolleyes:

How is the disgusting stuff that anthonyvop said any better than what I said? :rolleyes:

[EuroTroll]

What an absolute joke of a "forum". :rolleyes:

How is the disgusting stuff that anthonyvop said any better than what I said? :rolleyes:

You're free to call his views disgusting, but you're not free to insult him. That's just how it works here. ;) "Discuss the post, not the poster."

So when you get a moderator's warning for your efforts on this thread, I hope you won't take it personally. :) A chill-pill is, indeed, in order. ;)

[pino]

What an absolute joke of a "forum". :rolleyes:

How is the disgusting stuff that anthonyvop said any better than what I said? :rolleyes:

None forces you to stay if you don't feel confortable, but if you do stay...you better watch your language !

[Joey Zyla]

I don't feel "comfortable" on a forum where people are encouraged to wish death on innocent creatures.

[EuroTroll]

I don't feel "comfortable" on a forum where people are encouraged to wish death on innocent creatures.

But they're not "encouraged", are they... It's just their opinion and you have to deal with it as that.

Personally, I very much hope you'll stay, Joey. You're a bright kid, and you add value to the forum. If you'll just scratch the personal insults, you'll be fine. ;)

[henners88]

Its best not to bite when people make silly statements like that Joey. We are all guilty of responding to silly posts but its rare people use direct insults. Just keep your cool... From a fellow forum-er not a mod... :)

[Joey Zyla]

But they're not "encouraged", are they... It's just their opinion and you have to deal with it as that.

Personally, I very much hope you'll stay, Joey. You're a bright kid, and you add value to the forum. If you'll just scratch the personal insults, you'll be fine. ;)

Thank you. ;)

[Malbec]

I don't feel "comfortable" on a forum where people are encouraged to wish death on innocent creatures.

Hold on there.

There is only one post on this thread that has wished death on anyone. Thats the opening post here that wished another tsunami on Japan resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands...

Or by creatures do you mean whales? If so what is special about whales that make them above hunting? I really would like to understand.

[Joey Zyla]

Hold on there.

There is only one post on this thread that has wished death on anyone. Thats the opening post here that wished another tsunami on Japan resulting in the deaths of tens of thousands...

Or by creatures do you mean whales? If so what is special about whales that make them above hunting? I really would like to understand.

Wait, sorry, what? I understand if you don't like whales (although I don't understand why), but you do realize that they are creatures, right? :erm:

I don't think whales are "special", I just don't think killing large numbers of a species on the verge of becoming extinct is a good thing to do.

[Malbec]

Wait, sorry, what? I understand if you don't like whales (although I don't understand why), but you do realize that they are creatures, right? :erm:

I don't think whales are "special", I just don't think killing large numbers of a species on the verge of becoming extinct is a good thing to do.

Yes I realise whales are creatures, as are all other animals however pleasant or unpleasant they are.

Minke whales are not on the verge of becoming extinct though. They are not classified as being endangered. So why shouldn't they be hunted any more or less than, say, cows?

[Joey Zyla]

Japan has plenty of animals to eat. Cows, fish, etc.

[Malbec]

Japan has plenty of animals to eat. Cows, fish, etc.

Which is a logic that can be applied to any food whatsoever. Why should Americans be allowed to eat beef when there are plenty of other animals to eat?

What makes Minke whales special?

[henners88]

I understand if you don't like whales...
What? I live in Wales.... :bigcry:

[Joey Zyla]

What? I live in Wales.... :bigcry:

Wales is automatically cool because it contains Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch. :p

[henners88]

Wey hey, I'm impressed! :)

[Malbec]

What? I live in Wales.... :bigcry:

Yes but at a mere 211 posts you ARE genuinely endangered!

[anthonyvop]

I don't feel "comfortable" on a forum where people are encouraged to wish death on innocent creatures.

But it is OK for people to wish death and injury on people?

[Jag_Warrior]

If I ever have an options trade that really pays off, I plan to use my ill-gotten gains to go on a hunt... a people hunt. I'm really curious to know what a Japanese tastes like. And to avoid charges of murder or cannibalism, I plan to call my adventure (and meal) "scientific research" - just like the whalers do. The issue I have with the Japanese whalers is their lies. If it's not wrong or illegal, then they why do they feel the need to lie about what they're doing or why they're doing it. And so, if it's not wrong for them, it shouldn't be wrong for me to chomp into one of them. Say, I wonder if they taste like chicken? :eek:

But until then, I'll continue to get a real kick out of watching Whale Wars on Animal Planet. I may not agree with everything that the Sea Shepherds do, but I do like their style and moxie.

[Malbec]

If I ever have an options trade that really pays off, I plan to use my ill-gotten gains to go on a hunt... a people hunt. I'm really curious to know what a Japanese tastes like. And to avoid charges of murder or cannibalism, I plan to call my adventure (and meal) "scientific research" - just like the whalers do. And so, if it's not wrong for them, it shouldn't be wrong for me to chomp into one of them. Say, I wonder if they taste like chicken? :eek:

Coming as it does from you whose posts are generally well thought out and rational I think this is one of the most hysterical and disturbing posts I've read on this forum.

Tell me what it is about whales that makes you feel about whalehunting this way? I presume you do not feel the same way about cattle farms? Is it a religious thing? Given the strength of emotion this generates it almost feels that way.


The issue I have with the Japanese whalers is their lies. If it's not wrong or illegal, then they why do they feel the need to lie about what they're doing or why they're doing it.

Why is it that you can get so emotional about this matter yet haven't done basic research about the politics of whaling?

Japan's error is to remain within the IWC, the commission that regulates whaling. This has imposed a ban on commercial whaling but not for research which is why the Japanese whale for research purposes. Under this agreement whalemeat not used for research can be sold. The Japanese do publish peer reviewed research on the whales they catch but as you've said this is largely a cover for commercial hunting.

As already described other whaling countries have simply withdrawn from the IWC and have resumed commercial whaling. As your post indicates I think this shows that Japan should do the same and recommence unrestricted commercial whaling unfettered, then your grounds for wanting to eat them will disappear overnight.

For whatever reason, Japan persists in trying to come to an agreement with other IWC countries to allow restricted commercial whaling but I think the reality is that the opposing positions are too polarised to ever come to any agreement, hence the IWC is unworkable. In this case Japan's attachment to working with international bodies is counterproductive.

[steveaki13]

Wow.

Seems as though things have been getting a little out of hand today while I was at work.

Joey has been banned for the posts in this thread or something else? (Just curious as to whats happening in the forum)

As for the subject.

I believe that humans are part of the food chain and should be allowed to kill animals for food. However I also believe that as a higher species we have a duty to protect species when they are over hunted or just close to extinction.

I am also anti herbal medicine trade of sustances like Rhino horn or whatever else as I cant see that as a required source of medical treatment in todays world.


Thats my view and I am sticking too it, but I wont be abusing any of you who disagree with me.

[Malbec]

I am also anti herbal medicine trade of sustances like Rhino horn or whatever else as I cant see that as a required source of medical treatment in todays world.

Its trade in this kind of medicine when there are perfectly good conventional medical alternatives that does get me extremely angry, ditto elephant tusks or the shocking trade in sharks fins which does deserve immediate action to stop it IMO, not whaling.

[Jag_Warrior]

Coming as it does from you whose posts are generally well thought out and rational I think this is one of the most hysterical and disturbing posts I've read on this forum.

Rational?! What?! I resent the remark that I am or have ever been rational! I am not rational! Rumors like that could give people (esp. those of the female persuasion) the idea that I could possibly be domesticated or house broken.

So not rational... but I am pretty sarcastic. ;)


But uh... do you honestly think that I would eat another person just for the heck of it? Seriously? Although, if I was really, really hungry (and no one was watching)... hey, a growing boy has got to eat! :dozey:




Tell me what it is about whales that makes you feel about whalehunting this way? I presume you do not feel the same way about cattle farms?

I grew up on a cattle farm. And we called it a cattle farm - not a bovine research facility. I used to hunt deer. But when someone was poaching deer on my land, I issued a warning that my eyes sometimes couldn't tell the difference between a coyote and a poacher in my rifle scope. My situation with poaching went away very quickly. When people know that you have a heavy-barrel AK with a night vision scope sitting on top of it, I guess that tends to make people think more clearly about what they're doing. Kinda like the cannibalism comment, it's unlikely that I would actually pop someone for trespassing or poaching, but is that a chance that one would want to take??? Plus, I called the game warden and the local cops and told them to arrest anyone found on that land who didn't have my written permission to be there. I'm just not prone to allow "deer researchers" to take deer off my land in the middle of the night.



Why is it that you can get so emotional about this matter yet haven't done basic research about the politics of whaling?

When I'm emotional, the veins in my temples and neck bulge out. I just looked in the mirror. The veins in my temples and neck aren't bulging. I think you sense some level of emotion that just isn't there. I'm not writing checks to the Sea Shepherds. But I do watch and enjoy the TV show. Sometimes I guess I just like seeing liars and cheats get hassled.



Japan's error is to remain within the IWC, the commission that regulates whaling. This has imposed a ban on commercial whaling but not for research which is why the Japanese whale for research purposes. Under this agreement whalemeat not used for research can be sold. The Japanese do publish peer reviewed research on the whales they catch but as you've said this is largely a cover for commercial hunting.

As already described other whaling countries have simply withdrawn from the IWC and have resumed commercial whaling. As your post indicates I think this shows that Japan should do the same and recommence unrestricted commercial whaling unfettered, then your grounds for wanting to eat them will disappear overnight.

For whatever reason, Japan persists in trying to come to an agreement with other IWC countries to come to an agreement that would allow restricted commercial whaling but I think the reality is that the opposing positions are too polarised to ever come to any agreement. In this case Japan's attachment to working with international bodies is counterproductive.

Sorry, I just have no sympathy for what I consider to be fancy/schmancy poaching, dressed up as "research".

[ioan]

Minke whales are not on the verge of becoming extinct though.

How long before they get to that point though? And when that happen we will go ahead and spend billions to protect them, right? And all this just because we were not considerate enough to use a bit of common sense.
Point in case is that fishing is OK, industrial fishing is NOT.

[D-Type]

Wow.

Seems as though things have been getting a little out of hand today while I was at work.

Joey has been banned for the posts in this thread or something else? (Just curious as to whats happening in the forum)

As for the subject.

I believe that humans are part of the food chain and should be allowed to kill animals for food. However I also believe that as a higher species we have a duty to protect species when they are over hunted or just close to extinction.

I am also anti herbal medicine trade of sustances like Rhino horn or whatever else as I cant see that as a required source of medical treatment in todays world.


Thats my view and I am sticking too it, but I wont be abusing any of you who disagree with me.
I understand he is a previously banned poster using a new alias

[Malbec]

But uh... do you honestly think that I would eat another person just for the heck of it? Seriously? Although, if I was really, really hungry (and no one was watching)... hey, a growing boy has got to eat! :dozey:

I dunno, after all we've had this thread start with a desire for tens of thousands of Japanese to be drowned again so in that context your cannibalistic desires aren't that exceptional....


I grew up on a cattle farm. And we called it a cattle farm - not a bovine research facility. I used to hunt deer. But when someone was poaching deer on my land, I issued a warning that my eyes sometimes couldn't tell the difference between a coyote and a poacher in my rifle scope. My situation with poaching went away very quickly. When people know that you have a heavy-barrel AK with a night vision scope sitting on top of it, I guess that tends to make people think more clearly about what they're doing. Kinda like the cannibalism comment, it's unlikely that I would actually pop someone for trespassing or poaching, but is that a chance that one would want to take??? Plus, I called the game warden and the local cops and told them to arrest anyone found on that land who didn't have my written permission to be there. I'm just not prone to allow "deer researchers" to take deer off my land in the middle of the night.

When I'm emotional, the veins in my temples and neck bulge out. I just looked in the mirror. The veins in my temples and neck aren't bulging. I think you sense some level of emotion that just isn't there. I'm not writing checks to the Sea Shepherds. But I do watch and enjoy the TV show. Sometimes I guess I just like seeing liars and cheats get hassled.

Sorry, I just have no sympathy for what I consider to be fancy/schmancy poaching, dressed up as "research".

In order for it to be poaching the whales have to be owned by someone. They aren't. They're swimming in international waters (despite Australia's claims to the contrary which oddly enough the Aussies don't want anywhere near an international arbitration committee). Its just plain fishing or whaling.

But since the poaching angle is nonsense I guess its only the research aspect that you're against, and therefore I'm sure you completely agree with me that Japan should withdraw from the IWC and recommence commercial whaling right? ;)

[Malbec]

How long before they get to that point though?

My maths is rubbish, however since Minke whale numbers have been increasing over the past two decades I think it might take quite a while.


Point in case is that fishing is OK, industrial fishing is NOT.

You're against industrial fishing? Thats a bit extreme. No seafood whatsoever except for what you caught personally with your line and hook? ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

I dunno, after all we've had this thread start with a desire for tens of thousands of Japanese to be drowned again so in that context your cannibalistic desires aren't that exceptional....

With a little lemon and butter... YUMMY!




In order for it to be poaching the whales have to be owned by someone. They aren't. They're swimming in international waters (despite Australia's claims to the contrary which oddly enough the Aussies don't want anywhere near an international arbitration committee). Its just plain fishing or whaling.

But since the poaching angle is nonsense I guess its only the research aspect that you're against, and therefore I'm sure you completely agree with me that Japan should withdraw from the IWC and recommence commercial whaling right? ;)

Poaching has nothing to do with who owns an animal. It's illegal to even own some wild animals. I don't own any deer and I never have. But whether you shoot a deer on my land or on the National Forest land right beside me, if caught, you'll have your firearm and vehicle seized and you could do as much as 12 months in jail for poaching. In fact, out of season, I can't even kill deer on my own land. I could face the same charges if caught. It comes down to whether your actions are legal or illegal. I call what the Japanese whalers do "poaching". If there is a more appropriate legal term, then that's fine.

As for what the Japanese do or don't do, in regard to the IWC, that's up to them. I don't have a dog (or a whale) in that fight. But if they're going to harvest whales for meat, then they should grow a pair and call it what it is. But ya know, if I was them, I'd probably be trying to make friends with the whales. If China decides that Tokyo would be a nice place to vacation in the summer months, it might help to have some aquatic friends. So either they make nice with the whales... or learn to speak Chinese ASAP!

And hey, since they can't even deal with a bunch of young, naive, wide-eyed hippes in rubber boats, I suggest they start focusing on bigger issues. P!ssing off the international community over this, at this time, probably isn't in their best interest. But if it goes badly for them, I see that as their problem, not mine.

[Gregor-y]

You're free to call his views disgusting, but you're not free to insult him. That's just how it works here. ;) "Discuss the post, not the poster."
Tony's done it plenty of times. So why hasn't he been banned again? ;)

[EuroTroll]

Tony's done it plenty of times. So why hasn't he been banned again? ;)

Dunno. :) But I notice young Joey isn't banned anymore, either. :) Surprising, given that he went totally nuts today, but there you go. :)

[Malbec]

Poaching has nothing to do with who owns an animal. It's illegal to even own some wild animals. I don't own any deer and I never have. But whether you shoot a deer on my land or on the National Forest land right beside me, if caught, you'll have your firearm and vehicle seized and you could do as much as 12 months in jail for poaching. In fact, out of season, I can't even kill deer on my own land. I could face the same charges if caught. It comes down to whether your actions are legal or illegal. I call what the Japanese whalers do "poaching". If there is a more appropriate legal term, then that's fine.

Either way what you're saying is that you call what the Japanese doing illegal. Thats fine but tell me what law they're breaking. Should be pretty easy right? Point it out to me.

I used to be anti-whaling until I actually looked into the arguments for and against it. The problem with whaling is that the anti-whaling arguments just melt away until all you're left with is the 'whales are special' argument.

Are they endangered? Some are but the ones being hunted are not.
Its illegal! It would be if they were endangered but they are not.
Its banned! Commercial whaling is banned only by the IWC which is a whaling club. You don't have to be part of the club, and something you and many others ignore is that countries outside the club kill more whales than Japan inside the club. Whale species that are not endangered are thus not covered by any international laws so hunting/whaling isn't banned by a higher power.
Whales are intelligent sentient beings! The most intelligent whales are dolphins who are probably on a par with pigs and dogs as they can be trained to do similar things. What do we do with pigs again? Why should less intelligent Minkes be treated any differently to any other animal?

Then there is the rampant hypocrisy. Japan is pilloried but the Soviet Union, South Korea, Iceland and Norway are/were not despite hunting through the ban (I guess they're cleverer, either leaving the IWC or lying directly about their activities, you clearly value this kind of behaviour over Japan's actions). America, Canada and New Zealand apply huge pressure at the IWC to stop Japan from hunting while simultaneously applying for whaling licences for their own eskimos and maoris. We do not allow African tribesmen to kill rhinos and elephants out of tradition so why the double standard regarding whales?

Its amazing how many of these myths get perpetuated and repeated ad nauseum without questioning or thinking.

Then there are the peripheral issues like Australia claiming it owns between a quarter to a third of Antarctica and its waters. Australian politicians talk loudly to their people about how whaling is illegal in Australian waters but internationally avoid anything that would lead to their claim to that territory being challenged openly because they know they've forfeited already via the Antarctic treaty.

Since the only real reason people are anti-whaling is because they are culturally special that opens a whole new Pandora's box. If whaling can be stopped because some people feel whales are special then what stops people from banning other animals from being eaten? Indians feel cows are holy, why shouldn't they press for beef to be banned globally? They'd have a damn sight stronger argument because they've been consistent on this issue for over 5000 years unlike the US et al who hunted whales to near extinction until 4 decades ago then underwent a sudden U-turn.

Most importantly for me, attention on legal whaling of non-endangered species takes attention from other far more important species that aren't viewed as being as cute. Again I mention sharks, but I could also add other species like cod and tuna. These are the species that need real attention NOW to prevent them from being either wiped out or so rare that we can no longer sustain fishing them for food.

I have to give it to the anti-whaling lobby though, with little resources they've managed to do a good job in brainwashing the Western public. That definitely deserves recognition though it helps the public they're working with seem to have lost the ability to reason and question what they are told.

[Jag_Warrior]

Either way what you're saying is that you call what the Japanese doing illegal. Thats fine but tell me what law they're breaking. Should be pretty easy right? Point it out to me.

It actually was pretty easy. Took me about 20 seconds.
Japan whaling illegal, court says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7188674.stm)

The Federal Court said Japan had broken domestic law by killing whales in Australian waters off Antarctica.

It is not clear what effect the ruling will have, as Japan does not recognise Australia's Antarctic claim.


Like I said, this may be a more major issue to you than to me. I'm not particularly wound up about it one way or the other. I eat beef but I do not eat veal. As I said, I grew up on a farm and I know what's what when it comes to livestock. And after I saw some Holstein calves being raised in pens for veal production, it made me sick and I've never eaten veal since. If you or others like it, then eat it. If the Japanese want to eat whales, dog poo or dirt, that's up to them. But I'll continue to enjoy seeing the do-gooder, hippy kids hassle the hell out of them. And like I said, the Japanese need to grow a pair of nads and stop with this "research" foolishness. How silly is that? You're married, so what were you doing with that girl in that hotel room? Research! You're on a diet, so what were you doing with that giant bag of corn chips? Research! The next time I get pulled over for speeding and the cop asks me why I was going 85 in a 70, I'll just tell him that I was doing some research. Or maybe I'll get cute, like a lot of people do these days, and tell him that I'm a sovereign citizen and I don't recognize state and Federal laws.

What would really be funny would be if the Chinese sail that new aircraft carrier of theirs toward Japan. And when the Japanese (and U.S.) flip out and ask them what they're doing, they should just say they're doing research. :dozey:

[Malbec]

It actually was pretty easy. Took me about 20 seconds.
Japan whaling illegal, court says (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7188674.stm)

The Federal Court said Japan had broken domestic law by killing whales in Australian waters off Antarctica.

It is not clear what effect the ruling will have, as Japan does not recognise Australia's Antarctic claim.

Please PLEASE tell me you're better than this. More mindless drivel.

The fourth sentence you quoted is a clue.

Japan doesn't recognise Australia's Antarctic claim. Only four countries do, the UK, France, New Zealand and Norway. Read article 4 of the Antarctic treaty to understand why. Curiously those four countries are the precise ones that carved up the Antarctic over one hundred years ago amongst themselves. I've only mentioned this several times in this thread.

The fact that Australia's territorial claim is not recognised internationally is the basis behind an American court finding Sea Shepherd guilty of piracy last week, after all as far as the USA is concerned the Japanese are sailing and whaling in international waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Antarctic_Territory#Recognition_of_Aust ralian_sovereignty


And after I saw some Holstein calves being raised in pens for veal production, it made me sick and I've never eaten veal since. If you or others like it, then eat it. If the Japanese want to eat whales, dog poo or dirt, that's up to them. But I'll continue to enjoy seeing the do-gooder, hippy kids hassle the hell out of them.

If you're a veggie I'll respect your opinion a hell of a lot more, at least that argument is consistent and its about the only anti-whaling line that I have time for.


And like I said, the Japanese need to grow a pair of nads and stop with this "research" foolishness. How silly is that? You're married, so what were you doing with that girl in that hotel room? Research! You're on a diet, so what were you doing with that giant bag of corn chips? Research! The next time I get pulled over for speeding and the cop asks me why I was going 85 in a 70, I'll just tell him that I was doing some research.


Then as I've put it to you before you will have no problem with whaling as long as its done outside the IWC right? Therefore you want Japan to withdraw from the IWC and resume commercial whaling right? That way the research pretence can be dropped.

That is also the reason why you have no problems with Norway and Iceland whaling right?


What would really be funny would be if the Chinese sail that new aircraft carrier of theirs toward Japan. And when the Japanese (and U.S.) flip out and ask them what they're doing, they should just say they're doing research. :dozey:

I'm sure you'll have no problems with dodgy research, after all America has done in that area experimenting on blacks (Tuskegee Syphilis trial).

[ioan]

My maths is rubbish, however since Minke whale numbers have been increasing over the past two decades I think it might take quite a while.

This is what we are being told, I am fairly sure the animals on this planet with increasing number every year are: humans, dogs and rats.
Due to hunting and loss of habitat all others can not thrive, no matter how we look at it.



You're against industrial fishing? Thats a bit extreme. No seafood whatsoever except for what you caught personally with your line and hook? ;)

Why not?
Industrial fishing can not really be called fishing, I'd rather call it mindless industrial harvesting of dwindling resources.

[BDunnell]

Why not?
Industrial fishing can not really be called fishing, I'd rather call it mindless industrial harvesting of dwindling resources.

While I agree with the basis of your sentiment regarding the terminology, there are limits, I feel, to what is possible regarding the growing and harvesting of produce. Working people simply do not have the time to produce or catch all the foodstuffs they need. Some degree of industrial production will always be necessary, though, of course, I hope the current trend towards more responsible and more local sourcing will continue.

[ioan]

While I agree with your sentiment regarding the terminology, there are limits, I feel, to what is possible regarding the growing and harvesting of produce. Working people simply do not have the time to produce or catch all the foodstuffs they need. Some degree of industrial production will always be necessary, though, of course, I hope the current trend towards more responsible and more local sourcing will continue.

Catching a fish a day doesn't even take that long and it more then covers the daily need.
Also vegetables are can be caught very easily and fast, same goes for eggs. And milking 10 liters of milk from a cow wouldn't take more than 20 minutes. All of these enough to live a full week, and also way healthier then eating at McD, KFC or frozen prepared food from the super market.
The problem isn't time, it's a lack of knowledge, independence and common sense.

[Garry Walker]

How long before they get to that point though? And when that happen we will go ahead and spend billions to protect them, right? And all this just because we were not considerate enough to use a bit of common sense.
Point in case is that fishing is OK, industrial fishing is NOT.
Good post.

[ioan]

Good post.

Welcome back Garry. Where have you been man? It's been some time we didn't see you around here.

[EuroTroll]

Catching a fish a day doesn't even take that long and it more then covers the daily need.
Also vegetables are can be caught very easily and fast, same goes for eggs. And milking 10 liters of milk from a cow wouldn't take more than 20 minutes. All of these enough to live a full week, and also way healthier then eating at McD, KFC or frozen prepared food from the super market.
The problem isn't time, it's a lack of knowledge, independence and common sense.

Are you suggesting that everyone should do that? Do you do that?

Didn't we come up with something called "division of labour" a couple of thousand years ago? :) And wasn't there an "industrial revolution" a couple of hundred years ago? Both basis, surely, to our modern prosperity.

[Garry Walker]

Welcome back Garry. Where have you been man? It's been some time we didn't see you around here.

Very busy winter, far too much work :D . Haven't seen you here either the last few days where I have made my appearances.

[BDunnell]

Catching a fish a day doesn't even take that long and it more then covers the daily need.

It does if you don't live anywhere near a location where fresh fish can be caught. And I don't consider I have a 'daily need' for fish.



Also vegetables are can be caught very easily and fast, same goes for eggs. And milking 10 liters of milk from a cow wouldn't take more than 20 minutes. All of these enough to live a full week, and also way healthier then eating at McD, KFC or frozen prepared food from the super market.
The problem isn't time, it's a lack of knowledge, independence and common sense.

Vegetables, fine — but not everyone has a garden. A very practical consideration. Eggs, milk — no way. I don't want to have to do either of those tasks.



All of these enough to live a full week, and also way healthier then eating at McD, KFC or frozen prepared food from the super market.
The problem isn't time, it's a lack of knowledge, independence and common sense.

There is a huge problem with time — deciding on the best breeds/species to buy for the local conditions, learning how best to rear/grow them, actually rearing/growing them, keeping them healthy, and so forth. Lack of knowledge — so what? I don't consider animal husbandry to be a core skill for all. In truth, it never has been a universal skill, hence the fact of the farming industry coming to be.

I'd add that there is something between being entirely self-sufficient, which I feel is impractical for most people, and eating crap from McDonald's and supermarkets, namely good, local producers. Do they not deserve a livelihood?

[BDunnell]

Very busy winter, far too much work :D . Haven't seen you here either the last few days where I have made my appearances.

ioan's occasional 'posting evenings' are a highlight of any week.

[ioan]

Are you suggesting that everyone should do that? Do you do that?

Didn't we come up with something called "division of labour" a couple of thousand years ago? :) And wasn't there an "industrial revolution" a couple of hundred years ago? Both basis, surely, to our modern prosperity.

Do you think that our life has become better due to division of labor?
The industrial revolution sure helped, yet I am firmly against industrialized food production. Why? Because generally the quality of the food is going down by the day. This is why I buy only fresh and bio/organic food. But those who leave on a shoe string have to it the crap they can afford and that is bad.

I grew up on my grandparents' farm, where they lived 90 years because they had a healthy life as farmers, with more physical work, better quality food and less management induced stress.

What I suggest is to go to the market and buy produce only from the local farmers and fish from the local fishermen who own a small boat and bring fresh fish every day. This is my vision of the future not a brave new world.

[BDunnell]

Didn't we come up with something called "division of labour" a couple of thousand years ago? :) And wasn't there an "industrial revolution" a couple of hundred years ago? Both basis, surely, to our modern prosperity.

Well, the march of industrialisation, while it has brought some positives, cannot be considered universally so — not least in environmental terms. I would prefer a 'middle way' whereby we source more of what we need from local producers, and waste less, but I am not in favour of total self-sufficiency, because for many it's just not practical.

[BDunnell]

Do you think that our life has become better due to division of labor?
The industrial revolution sure helped, yet I am firmly against industrialized food production. Why? Because generally the quality of the food is going down by the day. This is why I buy only fresh and bio/organic food. But those who leave on a shoe string have to it the crap they can afford and that is bad.

I grew up on my grandparents' farm, where they lived 90 years because they had a healthy life as farmers, with more physical work, better quality food and less management induced stress.

What I suggest is to go to the market and buy produce only from the local farmers and fish from the local fishermen who own a small boat and bring fresh fish every day. This is my vision of the future not a brave new world.

I agree completely with all of that, but, with respect, you were advocating doing it all yourself.

[ioan]

It does if you don't live anywhere near a location where fresh fish can be caught. And I don't consider I have a 'daily need' for fish.

Vegetables, fine — but not everyone has a garden. A very practical consideration. Eggs, milk — no way. I don't want to have to do either of those tasks.

There is a huge problem with time — deciding on the best breeds/species to buy for the local conditions, learning how best to rear/grow them, actually rearing/growing them, keeping them healthy, and so forth. Lack of knowledge — so what? I don't consider animal husbandry to be a core skill for all. In truth, it never has been a universal skill, hence the fact of the farming industry coming to be.

I'd add that there is something between being entirely self-sufficient, which I feel is impractical for most people, and eating crap from McDonald's and supermarkets, namely good, local producers. Do they not deserve a livelihood?

Sure they do and that's what I support in my daily life.

My example was a bit extreme in order to prove that it is still possible, not as simple as walking into a supermarket though! ;)

PS: You don't need to milk the chicken in order to get the eggs. ;)

[ioan]

I agree completely with all of that, but, with respect, you were advocating doing it all yourself.

Which is a possibility, not difficult at all, though as I mentioned in my previous post I did push it to extreme on purpose.

[ioan]

ioan's occasional 'posting evenings' are a highlight of any week.

It doesn't happen that often nowadays isn't it?

[BDunnell]

Or by creatures do you mean whales? If so what is special about whales that make them above hunting? I really would like to understand.

I think there are some people who seem to value (some) human lives below those of other creatures, all of which they would protect unconditionally.

[EuroTroll]

Do you think that our life has become better due to division of labor?

Absolutely! Division of labour brings efficiency and efficiency brings prosperity. The modern world is simply unimaginable without it.


The industrial revolution sure helped, yet I am firmly against industrialized food production. Why? Because generally the quality of the food is going down by the day. This is why I buy only fresh and bio/organic food. But those who leave on a shoe string have to it the crap they can afford and that is bad.

I grew up on my grandparents' farm, where they lived 90 years because they had a healthy life as farmers, with more physical work, better quality food and less management induced stress.

What I suggest is to go to the market and buy produce only from the local farmers and fish from the local fishermen who own a small boat and bring fresh fish every day. This is my vision of the future not a brave new world.

That's fair enough, and decent advice. :up: What I thought you were suggesting was that everyone should grow/catch everything themselves, but clearly I was wrong.

[BDunnell]

Which is a possibility, not difficult at all, though as I mentioned in my previous post I did push it to extreme on purpose.

Fair enough.

[BDunnell]

Absolutely! Division of labour brings efficiency and efficiency brings prosperity. The modern world is simply unimaginable without it.

Define 'efficiency', though. I don't consider that transporting food half-way, or further, round the world is especially efficient when many needs could be met from closer to home.

[EuroTroll]

Define 'efficiency', though. I don't consider that transporting food half-way, or further, round the world is especially efficient when many needs could be met from closer to home.

I simply meant efficiency in production. The farmer, the cobbler, and the black-smith produce more food, shoes, and nails, if each of them specialises to one task. They can then trade, and be all better off.

It's just so basic that I feel silly writing it to intelligent adults. :)

[ioan]

I think there are some people who seem to value (some) human lives below those of other creatures, all of which they would protect unconditionally.

We humans, did put ourselves in a position of power vis-a-vis of animals and we should not abuse this position for any other purpose but for the strict necessities of life.
As such I can see myself opposing another person for protecting an animal.

[ioan]

I simply meant efficiency in production. The farmer, the cobbler, and the black-smith produce more food, shoes, and nails, if each of them specialises to one task. They can then trade, and be all better off.

It's just so basic that I feel silly writing it to intelligent adults. :)

Ofcourse, the downside of it being kids that are disgusted when they learn that the milk originates from the cow and not from a Tetra Pak. Or people who are unable to use a hammer and nails.

As for industrialization, well it stopped being great when it started meaning that much less people are needed for producing the same or bigger amounts of products, which combined with the ever growing population equals a social catastrophe in the making.

My point is that all principles have good and bad sides and we should strive to build on their good sides while diminishing the bad ones, which nowadays isn't the case, sadly.

[BDunnell]

I simply meant efficiency in production. The farmer, the cobbler, and the black-smith produce more food, shoes, and nails, if each of them specialises to one task. They can then trade, and be all better off.

It's just so basic that I feel silly writing it to intelligent adults. :)

I hope that last comment is meant sarcastically. The term 'efficiency' takes in far, far more than your definition above.

[BDunnell]

We humans, did put ourselves in a position of power vis-a-vis of animals and we should not abuse this position for any other purpose but for the strict necessities of life.
As such I can see myself opposing another person for protecting an animal.

In fact, my comment wasn't aimed at you so much as those who, say, claim to place less value on a socialist's life than they would on someone who shares their own beliefs, but are seemingly unconditional in their desire to protect animals.

[ioan]

In fact, my comment wasn't aimed at you so much as those who, say, claim to place less value on a socialist's life than they would on someone who shares their own beliefs, but are seemingly unconditional in their desire to protect animals.

Got it. :)

[EuroTroll]

I hope that last comment is meant sarcastically. The term 'efficiency' takes in far, far more than your definition above.

You hope I was being sarcastic? :confused: Far from it, as my good-natured smile at the end should have indicated. :)

One of the definitions for the word 'efficiency' is: "accomplishment of or ability to accomplish a job with a minimum expenditure of time and effort"

Of course, there are other definitions. :)

In short: I don't understand your objection. :)

[BDunnell]

You hope I was being sarcastic? :confused: Far from it, as my good-natured smile at the end should have indicated. :)

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I prefer to communicate via words rather than emoticons.

[EuroTroll]

Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I prefer to communicate via words rather than emoticons.

Which is exactly why you generally come across as a thoroughly miserable git. :D

Emoticons add juice, and clarify. Clarify the difference, for example, between:
- "amazing" :up:
- "amazing" :down:
- "amazing" :)
- "amazing" :rolleyes:

I'd seriously consider employing one, once in a while.

[donKey jote]

amazing :dozey: :andrea: :p

[BDunnell]

Which is exactly why you generally come across as a thoroughly miserable git. :D

Emoticons add juice, and clarify. Clarify the difference, for example, between:
- "amazing" :up:
- "amazing" :down:
- "amazing" :)
- "amazing" :rolleyes:

I'd seriously consider employing one, once in a while.

Not in a million years.

[henners88]

The odd smiley does bridge the gap when typing a sentence and expressing an emotion or facial expression you would see when speaking face to face. Adding an emotion doesn't make the content of the writing inferior. :)

[BDunnell]

The odd smiley does bridge the gap when typing a sentence and expressing an emotion or facial expression you would see when speaking face to face. Adding an emotion doesn't make the content of the writing inferior. :)

I simply don't like them, I'm afraid. I don't need them in any other form of writing, so I don't feel I need them here either. Just my view.

Personally I'm rather glad the thread has diverted down this tangent as I can't say I have an especially strong view on the fate of whales. However, there is, as ever, an interesting discussion to be had surrounding what we consider acceptable treatment of the natural products we eat, where we get them from and so forth.

[henners88]

Personally I'm rather glad the thread has diverted down this tangent as I can't say I have an especially strong view on the fate of whales. However, there is, as ever, an interesting discussion to be had surrounding what we consider acceptable treatment of the natural products we eat, where we get them from and so forth.
I am surprised by some of the views here about whaling I must admit. Some animal species are sustainable and managed for the food chain, and some are not i.e the whale population. Cattle are relatively easy to breed and keep reproducing. You try sticking your arm up a whales backside and asking it to hold still while you artificially inseminate! Actually please don't try that. I just think some species need to be given a little more respect than others because once they are gone, its an expensive and difficult task to re-introduce. I think we have a duty to make sure things like this are there for future generations otherwise we would have the same disresepct for historical buildings and other habitual decisions. Just my view. :)

[Malbec]

Personally I'm rather glad the thread has diverted down this tangent as I can't say I have an especially strong view on the fate of whales.

I should say that I don't really have strong feelings on the topic either. When the natural course of events takes its course and I'm finally crowned Grand Emperor of the Earth I have no idea what I'd propose to do about whaling.

The issue for me is how people can hold a viewpoint strongly enough that they wish others who disagree harm (not all people of course) without checking the evidence or doing the most basic research. Its quite strange how deep seated these perceptions are, such as Henners comment about whaling not being sustainable (why not? the numbers show that it is far more sustainable than cod fishing for example).

Ditto another pet hate which is the anti-nuclear lobby who again rely on a public perception of nuclear power and radiation that is based on ignorance and fear despite clear information and evidence being readily available.

As for smilies, I do think they help add nuance to comments where the context would otherwise be conveyed by body language or facial expressions. I can appreciate that a purist such as yourself could argue that that nuance should be obvious from the whole text, however whether its by email or forum postings often people do not write prose that is complete enough to do so.

[Jag_Warrior]

Please PLEASE tell me you're better than this. More mindless drivel.

The fourth sentence you quoted is a clue.

Japan doesn't recognise Australia's Antarctic claim. Only four countries do, the UK, France, New Zealand and Norway. Read article 4 of the Antarctic treaty to understand why. Curiously those four countries are the precise ones that carved up the Antarctic over one hundred years ago amongst themselves. I've only mentioned this several times in this thread.

The fact that Australia's territorial claim is not recognised internationally is the basis behind an American court finding Sea Shepherd guilty of piracy last week, after all as far as the USA is concerned the Japanese are sailing and whaling in international waters.

Australian Antarctic Territory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Antarctic_Territory#Recognition_of_Aust ralian_sovereignty)


You asked for legality. I gave it to you. That you don't like the Aussie decision is not my problem. And I included that line because I was not claiming that the Australian decision was not in dispute. But it sounds like, in your opinion anyway, that what the UK, France, New Zealand and Norway believe becomes invalid... if the United States takes a different position.



If you're a veggie I'll respect your opinion a hell of a lot more, at least that argument is consistent and its about the only anti-whaling line that I have time for.

Well, bully for you.




Then as I've put it to you before you will have no problem with whaling as long as its done outside the IWC right? Therefore you want Japan to withdraw from the IWC and resume commercial whaling right? That way the research pretence can be dropped.

You just enjoy going in circles, don't you? I honestly and truly don't give a tinker's dam what Japan does or doesn't do. I have a passing opinion on this issue, but unlike you, I am not consumed by it. If I was incredibly concerned about this topic, I'd send the Sea Shepherds some money or help them buy some equipment. But that's about as likely as me having a whale burger... or a veal cutlet.



That is also the reason why you have no problems with Norway and Iceland whaling right?

So now you've got the reason for me having a position that I've never expressed. That's truly fascinating. Please provide the quote where I said that I had no issue with Norway or Iceland's whaling activities. You seem quite certain that this is my position and even have the basis for it, so you should have no problem finding that particular quote by me.




I'm sure you'll have no problems with dodgy research, after all America has done in that area experimenting on blacks (Tuskegee Syphilis trial).

You're sure, are you? Why the need to get personal? Is this issue so serious to you that it reduces you to childish, immature comments like that? What do I have to do with research done on people before I was even born? What do I have to do with policies enacted by my country before I was even born? And now you're suggesting that I'm a racist or something? Really? Wow! It's very unfortunate that emotion has taken you to such a sad, low place. Your next move will probably involve invoking Hitler's name in some way, I suppose? I think I'll check out of this thread before you slip any further.

I'm not in the mood to trade insults or continue this silliness with you. So here's the deal: I like Whale Wars. I don't appreciate or agree with whale hunting, no matter the country in question. I'm not a fan of Japan's tactics on the issue. But I don't really care what Japan does or doesn't do, with regard to this issue or any other. Is that clear enough for you? I hope so, as I am done with this foolishness and won't be addressing this topic again. Good grief! :rolleyes:

[Malbec]

You asked for legality. I gave it to you. That you don't like the Aussie decision is not my problem. And I included that line because I was not claiming that the Australian decision was not in dispute. But it sounds like, in your opinion anyway, that what the UK, France, New Zealand and Norway believe becomes invalid... if the United States takes a different position.

I guess it means little to you that more countries are willing to recognise the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan than recognise Australia's Antarctic territories. Therefore it seems you don't realise that court ruling is utterly worthless, so worthless that even Australia won't enforce its own court ruling.


So now you've got the reason for me having a position that I've never expressed. That's truly fascinating. Please provide the quote where I said that I had no issue with Norway or Iceland's whaling activities. You seem quite certain that this is my position and even have the basis for it, so you should have no problem finding that particular quote by me.

I am merely taking your own oft-repeated logic at face value. You claim your views on Japan are only to do with the research coverup issue. The obvious flip side to that comment is that you would not be against whalehunting if the people doing it were upfront about what they were up to, as in Norway and Iceland. This really shouldn't need to be spelt out to you should it (although now you've finally clarified that you're actually against all whalehunting, wasn't so hard to say that now was it?)?


You're sure, are you? Why the need to get personal? Is this issue so serious to you that it reduces you to childish, immature comments like that? What do I have to do with research done on people before I was even born? What do I have to do with policies enacted by my country before I was even born? And now you're suggesting that I'm a racist or something? Really? Wow! It's very unfortunate that emotion has taken you to such a sad, low place. Your next move will probably involve invoking Hitler's name in some way, I suppose? I think I'll check out of this thread before you slip any further.

I'm not in the mood to trade insults or continue this silliness with you. So here's the deal: I like Whale Wars. I don't appreciate or agree with whale hunting, no matter the country in question. I'm not a fan of Japan's tactics on the issue. But I don't really care what Japan does or doesn't do, with regard to this issue or any other. Is that clear enough for you? I hope so, as I am done with this foolishness and won't be addressing this topic again. Good grief! :rolleyes:

Earlier in this thread you lectured me for not spotting your sarcasm. Now I employ sarcasm in reply to your post and you blow your top? Ok...

BTW Adolf Hitler, there you can check out of the thread now ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

http://www.mathgoodies.com/lessons/vol2/images/circum_formula.gif

[D-Type]

Gents, cool down. You are getting very close to the personal insult threshold