Fan streaming video site a good idea?

[Sprocket]

This came up in the following thread http://www.motorsportforums.com/wrc/156970-wrc-footage-where-hell.html

The concept (as I imagine it) would be a website where fans on the ground would stream video directly to the web from rallies for fans to view.

I would be really interested on thoughts on this. Both from those who might watch and those currently filming/photographing at rallies.

I can't quite get the concept out of my head and though I don't think I'm in a position to actually do anything about it would be good to get a wide range of ideas and thoughts on the concept.


I'm imagining a website where for example the fan on the stage ready to film would log on. Stage position could be recorded via hand held GPS or by clicking on a graphic of the stage on the website. They would then stream to the site directly for viewing. The footage would though remain as a record of the rally. Those that cannot stream direct could add video footage or photographs later to the correct point in the stage. In all it would end up as a superb record of each rally for the fans.

Fans might have a graphic of the stage showing where live stream was available whilst the stage was live and could point and click to follow live footage. After the stage was complete the footage and any extra media added would also remain for viewing later.

Another good concept would be to follow a driver through a stage, this would need some way to synch the footage being streamed to the car position - as I understand it the WRC cars now carry GPS locators - so that could be useful to achieve this.

As I said this really isn't a test of the water as I have no commercial interest in actually doing such a website. I'm just really interested in the concept. Perhaps a good discussion on the topic might just mean someone will pick it up and run with it and we all get the footage we would really like.

As I understand it, true streaming like this would require a special server so it would not be a trivial undertaking. So that also brings up how should it be funded, advertising or would people be willing to pay subscriptions to view etc? Should those submitting footage be paid etc. How would such a site stand with rights to show fan generated footage on the web?

I'm a bit naive about the technology, but it seems it could be done. But is it something that should be done?

So good or bad idea?

Pay of free for fans?

Is it possible to live stream video out of a cold forest directly to the web?

Would those currently filming seriously consider the expense/hassle of setting up to livestream?

As fans would we we all want such a site and use it?

and any other thoughts, suggestions!

[andyone]

a very good idea.. we did that on our local rally here in Tanzania.. but we used Hangout on the Google plus and it is a good idea for funs for those who are there they just do a live stream for us...

3112

that is the photo of the stream

with the invention of google Glasses its possible. the stream on the photo i just used my normal phone camre using an android Google nexus.. we can start from there. but only 10 perticipants per hangout.

[Mark]

The WRC rights owners would shut it down before you can blink.

[Zico]

The WRC rights owners would shut it down before you can blink.


Yes, but what if it was streamed from China or similar?


To the OP- One of the problems you might encounter in some remote events is the 3G-4G network coverage required for streaming.

[Sprocket]

The WRC rights owners would shut it down before you can blink.

This is one reason why in the original thread I switched the onus of providing the streaming to the rights owners. Frankly they should not be overlooking the concept themselves in terms of promotion. (so lets keep this thread going and hope they take some notice!)

Is it the case though that they could shut it down?

I can understand a copied scheduled program put on Youtube being pulled, but has anyone ever had a problem with a video they took themselves?

Is there actually an issue with showing film one takes oneself on the web at an event? The website would only be acting as an agent to organize the footage in a convenient way for fans to view. In itself, it is not generating the footage, so is no different from a thread on a forum where people post their own video or pictures which we already have. The only difference would be the raw footage streaming live. As I see it the copyright to the media belongs to the person submitting it. (though I could be totally wrong, it could be very country specific and it might take a legal expert to give a complete answer!)

I also like the idea that the server could be based in a 'safe' country. There could also be the option of negotiating rights, for example if a local TV company had the power stage, it could be agreed not to stream any footage from it on the website. (I noticed SVT did not stream the PS for Sweden, perhaps logistical, perhaps a rights issue).

Rally Radio is massively successful. This live website could be seen as a fan based way to add video to the mix. I think it would be best done in the open under the wing of the promoters with full communication, if it is a case they are not prepared to actually fund and provide the service themselves.

Regarding the tech points raised, I'm not ignoring them, I'll need to do some reading up!

[SubaruNorway]

The teams can't even post their own 5sec iPhone video's on Facebook this year without Sportsman wanting money... So doubt anything like that would last very long before you were threatened with a lawsuit.

[Sprocket]

The teams can't even post their own 5sec iPhone video's on Facebook this year without Sportsman wanting money... So doubt anything like that would last very long before you were threatened with a lawsuit.

The teams though are under contract to the promoters? They have therefore signed away any rights they may have had?

A fan taking a video on a stage is not in the same position. Surely they have the rights to their own footage?

PS obviously I do recognise this is a big issue - if it is a case that a rights issue does exist, no doubt it would be a dead duck from the start!

I have though pictures from past WRC rounds, if I post one on this thread I see no problem, it is my picture. As far as the promoters are concerned it is free advertising of the sponsors/team/drivers? A few years back we were at Germany, by chance we were sat right in the remote service park for the historics. I was subjected to the best half an hour of rally pornography imaginable as we were surrounded by Quattros, Stratos etc etc. I took film on my phone. Imagine if that could have been live streamed it was brilliant. Sadly I lost the footage, which is one good plus for the website concept, as it could also act as a storage space for fan footage which they would retain the rights to.

[rallyfiend]

The teams though are under contract to the promoters? They have therefore signed away any rights they may have had?

A fan taking a video on a stage is not in the same position. Surely they have the rights to their own footage?

PS obviously I do recognise this is a big issue - if it is a case that a rights issue does exist, no doubt it would be a dead duck from the start!

I have though pictures from past WRC rounds, if I post one on this thread I see no problem, it is my picture. As far as the promoters are concerned it is free advertising of the sponsors/team/drivers? A few years back we were at Germany, by chance we were sat right in the remote service park for the historics. I was subjected to the best half an hour of rally pornography imaginable as we were surrounded by Quattros, Stratos etc etc. I took film on my phone. Imagine if that could have been live streamed it was brilliant. Sadly I lost the footage, which is one good plus for the website concept, as it could also act as a storage space for fan footage which they would retain the rights to.

It would most certainly be a substantial rights issues. Particularly as soon as you in any way commercialise it (such as selling advertising on the website).

There's a difference between taking your own pictures / vision for your own use / enjoyment, and selling or distributing that. That's when lawyers get involved. They have contracts with broadcasters they would need to protect.

[Sprocket]

It would most certainly be a substantial rights issues. Particularly as soon as you in any way commercialise it (such as selling advertising on the website).

There's a difference between taking your own pictures / vision for your own use / enjoyment, and selling or distributing that. That's when lawyers get involved. They have contracts with broadcasters they would need to protect.

That's interesting, so if it remained a non-commercial venture it would perhaps be legal. I've done a bit of looking around and have found cases where for example fans took video at concerts which was later removed from the web. so clearly this could run to individuals, then again I think this is specified when one buys the tickets. I have never seen this for a rally event.
I'll mention again i'm in no way thinking of doing this myself.

Just to make it clear I have been behind a couple of 'concept' web ventures in the past which have met with moderate success.

They involved:

1) A lot of my unpaid time

2) Substantial amounts of my own cash

3) Only partial offsets of costs through advertising, certainly no profit was ever made

I'm not about to do it it again, and am not in a position right now to finance a project of this scope.

I just really want to explore the concept as it just seems too good an idea not to! At best my own personal involvement right now might run to streaming a live local clubman event on the agreement of the organisers, to their website or something like that.

It is far more interesting though to think about a large event covered widely with fan footage!

[Mark]

100% not legal.

When you attend an event it will state on your ticket that any photo and videos are for your own use only and not for commercial use. The fact that no money changes hands is not relevant here. The only money that would be changing hands is money out of your bank account on legal costs.

It's a non starter. Sorry.

[Sprocket]

100% not legal.

When you attend an event it will state on your ticket that any photo and videos are for your own use only and not for commercial use. The fact that no money changes hands is not relevant here. The only money that would be changing hands is money out of your bank account on legal costs.

It's a non starter. Sorry.

I'm not trying to be awkward, but where is the difference to a fan made video on Youtube or posted to a forum thread?

The only jump seems to be to true live streaming and the format of an easier graphical interface for the fans. (effectively ordering the geographical position of the media much like is done with photos on Google Earth)

In many many ways I would rather see the rights holder be the ones to run with this in any case, but I'm still struggling to see why it is OK to post images and video footage one has taken oneself on the web, which we do now, but 100% illegal to live stream footage.

[D-Type]

Doesn't it come down to land ownership? Whoever owns the land each side of the rally route can set their own terms for admission. And that includes access to take photographs. A possible exception is common land where the public have the right of access. This might include the right to take pictures.
I don't think that rally organisers can legally claim ownership of footage of the rally unless they have made it a condition of admission, which they can presumably only do if they own the land or have an agreement with the land owners.

[Franky]

In many many ways I would rather see the rights holder be the ones to run with this in any case, but I'm still struggling to see why it is OK to post images and video footage one has taken oneself on the web, which we do now, but 100% illegal to live stream footage.

Might be wrong but also fan vids aren't 100% legal.

[rallyfiend]

Might be wrong but also fan vids aren't 100% legal.

You're probably right, it would just take a lot of effort to pull them all down. Time = money.

[Sprocket]

So in a way the main thing against such a site would be it would pool peoples efforts into one easy to target place!

Interesting discussion though. It has certainly got me thinking about it all. In particular having a go myself with very local events where there are no rights issues. For many local auto clubs doubling entries for an event from 8 to 16 cars would make a huge difference, so if 50 people watched something like a local Autotest live on the web and just a few of them entered the next event, that could be judged a huge success.

Perhaps that would be a way, tackle the concept from the other end of the scope, if such ideas spread from local to national level, in a decade or so, the WRC promoters would kind of look very out of date for not using such resources. Seems to me they are struggling with effective TV coverage as it is so they really ought to be looking at alternatives such as this.

[Plan9]

We would not need to stream if WRC was happy to put highlights on youtube and organize a proper highlights DVD at the end of the season.

[Sprocket]

We would not need to stream if WRC was happy to put highlights on youtube and organize a proper highlights DVD at the end of the season.

WRC.com is now hosting full length highlight shows for Sweden which is a good move.

I kind of like the idea of the live stream, the SVT coverage from Sweden made the whole thing really cool whilst I was listening to Rally Radio. I felt much closer to the event and it convinced me I must go in the future. Highlights are good (well they could be), but if I'm prepared to sit through most of the day following results on the internet, it sure would be 'nice' to see some footage live too. It really doesn't seem like such a big ask in this day and age.

I guess the fan generated concept is purely because the current promoters have not get their act together with it already for each rally. It seems daft, don't they want people to follow the sport, see the sponsors logos and get involved? If they do why not use an obvious resource like live web streaming to take the action to fans all over the world. I'm sure TV deals are big money, I'm not so sure they are big exposure for the sport though.

[rage82]

When we were in Spain for rally de Espana 2012, I have an idea to try and stream live some footage from the start ceremony and the special stages. So i need a phone with a camera, internet acces and a site where to stream the footage. I have bought a prepaid sim card with mobile internet and made a registration on ustream.com. At the starting ceremony in Barcelona I've managed to make some videos, but the probelm comes when you are in the forest or in the mountains where the 3g signal is very low or is missing totally. Maybe it's possible to have a better connection but definately will raise the cost of streaming and will be impossible for an ordinary rally fan to make a broadcast directly from his spot on the special stage.

[stefanvv]

It's not impossible in general indeed. On last year's Rally Sweden a spectator was streaming from his phone the finish of the final stage (on facebook I think) and we saw live the victory of Latvalla.

[andyone]

Guys why not just create a page on G+ and make hangouts. And if anyone uploads videos on YouTube why no stream without money issue involved not for commercial use

Sent from my Cracked Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Sprocket]

We have talked a lot about legal issues. Perhaps it's worth exploring demand. How many people would watch such a service, whether it was fan generated or 'official'?

I would be watching the live streams for events I was not attending as really there is no limit to how much rally I could watch! If I can I pretty much set aside the days of a WRC round, follow the live splits and listen to rally radio.

Even 2-3 hrs of live stream on the web from a couple of stages and re-runs would get a huge thumbs up from me.

VW seem quite switched on with the video promotion side, what with drones and a their own videos, perhaps they will see the benefit for the sport.

[kirungi okwogera]

Hey Sprocket, I'm glad you made this topic - it was my complaining about the limitations of TV that got me thinking about this kind of thing, and I feel like it may become more possible as mobile bandwidth increases.

As for rights, I think we're being a bit knee-jerk saying it's hugely illegal. I don't know about the permission from the property owners being the only thing you need to have, but at worst it is a grey area. Nobody is confiscating cameras or footage when you attend an event - and this idea is an extension of sharing that footage with friends. As we're talking about live, not reproduced and sold as DVDs or anything, that's pretty much all that matters, assuming the streaming is a non-commercial, homemade kind of semi-private situation. This is less of a competition with WRC's own media promoters than the (often quite professional) photographers who do their own rally best-of videos on youtube, and no one's tracking them down and arresting them. What I envisioned was something in a way even simpler than a google hangout or group webcam chatroom:

Basically a map of the current stage on which people who have a good 3/4g signal can place themselves as links. Each link leads to a ustream or similar type of page. Thus you could watch the guy at the finish line the whole time if you want, or if there were multiple people streaming a stage at different points, you could even follow a particular driver through the stage by keeping along with them on the map. This is not something anybody, even Red Bull, could afford to do commercially instead, assuming the thing caught on enough to have decent number of camera-wielding participants.

In the end what could you do anyway? "Hey are you streaming with that camera" "No I'm just taking pictures for myself" "Oh, OK, enjoy the rally".

Right now the biggest obstacle to something like this providing decent coverage of a significant part of a rally (or even an individual stage, not superspecials) is the 3g/4g coverage and quality of most of the areas rallies take place in. It'll be a long time before many of these places would have coverage, some places possibly never. But the European rallies I think have a good chance, considering how quickly youtube videos come up when a rally's on...

It'd be funny to be able to tune in to some drunk Finns' bonfire along the roadside when a car's not going by too!

[Sprocket]

Hey Sprocket, I'm glad you made this topic - it was my complaining about the limitations of TV that got me thinking about this kind of thing, and I feel like it may become more possible as mobile bandwidth increases.

As for rights, I think we're being a bit knee-jerk saying it's hugely illegal. I don't know about the permission from the property owners being the only thing you need to have, but at worst it is a grey area. Nobody is confiscating cameras or footage when you attend an event - and this idea is an extension of sharing that footage with friends. As we're talking about live, not reproduced and sold as DVDs or anything, that's pretty much all that matters, assuming the streaming is a non-commercial, homemade kind of semi-private situation. This is less of a competition with WRC's own media promoters than the (often quite professional) photographers who do their own rally best-of videos on youtube, and no one's tracking them down and arresting them. What I envisioned was something in a way even simpler than a google hangout or group webcam chatroom:

Basically a map of the current stage on which people who have a good 3/4g signal can place themselves as links. Each link leads to a ustream or similar type of page. Thus you could watch the guy at the finish line the whole time if you want, or if there were multiple people streaming a stage at different points, you could even follow a particular driver through the stage by keeping along with them on the map. This is not something anybody, even Red Bull, could afford to do commercially instead, assuming the thing caught on enough to have decent number of camera-wielding participants.

In the end what could you do anyway? "Hey are you streaming with that camera" "No I'm just taking pictures for myself" "Oh, OK, enjoy the rally".

Right now the biggest obstacle to something like this providing decent coverage of a significant part of a rally (or even an individual stage, not superspecials) is the 3g/4g coverage and quality of most of the areas rallies take place in. It'll be a long time before many of these places would have coverage, some places possibly never. But the European rallies I think have a good chance, considering how quickly youtube videos come up when a rally's on...

It'd be funny to be able to tune in to some drunk Finns' bonfire along the roadside when a car's not going by too!

Yep your vision is just what I see too. A graphic of the stage where each 'streamer' can be seen and one just clicks on the link to watch the chosen stream.

I don't see the legal aspects as too much of a barrier. There is the argument that it would be almost impossible to 'police', there is also the point that the promoters/rights holders are just people. One could negotiate with them regarding the benefits of the service.

I suspect if someone came up with the concept of internet 'Rally Radio' people might say it was illegal if it wasn't for the fact it is already well established.

We are not talking here about big production, simply some live streamed personal videos being shared on the web. One would not expect super high fidelity or production, just simply a window in. With the vast areas that rally cover, it seems like an ideal way forward for the sport. I have no doubts the promoters/rights holders may be supportive if the concept were to be presented to them in the right way. It would be even better if they funded it and provided partial content too, this being supplemented by fans adding their own streams! :D

One function of the website could also be to show 3g 4g coverage to help people to set-up in areas where streaming was likely to work. A simple database could record locations where livestream was previously successful for example. As it might be a case that the providers could be a little cagey about giving precise information regarding areas of poor coverage, over time a picture of each stage would build up of good and bad locations.

[Sprocket]

Here is a graphic of what I am thinking of:


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The white box would be a thumbnail of the stream. One would click on it to open a new browser window/pop up window of the stream

Red circles indicate live streaming

Green circle a previous stream now finished but still available to view

The web page would be made up of the days stages stacked one above the other. So on arriving to the site one instantly knows which stage is live, which have previously run and which are to run. Perhaps a blue circle could be used indicate a user who has logged their position and is preparing to stream later.

The numbers in the circles are ratings. Similar to the Ebay rating system. Fans watching each stream can rate the content and regular users can quickly see favourite streamers via the user name. User names exist as each user would log-on to the site before streaming. Much like a forum one would need some control over user accounts for obvious reasons such as potential abuse of the system. Addition of a report button to the stream pop up window would facilitate reporting obviously inappropriate content for example.