Which F1 team has the best driver line up going into 2013?

[rjbetty]

Ok I don't know how to post a poll, but here goes:

Some drivers are subject to confirmation.

I don't expect HRT have a chance of making it in 2013, in any form.

I think the best driver combination could actually be Mercedes, so that's my choice.

[steveaki13]

2 votes for Mercedes.

While I am not 100% sure about Nico, with him and Lewis (one of the very best) I think they have the best line up. If all teams had an Identical car I would fancy Mercedes to do well.

Red Bull Vettel & Webber would probably be next but Mark has wayward spells most seasons.

Ferrari- Alonso is one of the best but Massa lets Ferrari down unfortunately these days.

Mclaren? Well Button is Good but not the very best and Perez is a complete unknown at the top teams level.

Lotus - Raikkonen & Grosjean could be strong on a good day but Grosjean can also look an amateur at times.

Williams - Untested Bottas and a fast but slightly wayward Maldonado.
Sauber - Nico Hulkenberg is a great driver, but Gutierrez is new.
Force INdia - If its Paul & Bruno then thats mediocre at best.
Toro Rosso - Both are promising but not ready.

Caterham - Pic done well at times last year and fancy him to be best of the new teams overall even if someone else finishes ahead on position gained. But Garde is unknown.

Marussia - Chilton & Razia ???? Who knows, but not the best on the grid. lol

[Koz]

If Massa retains the form he had during the latter half of 2012 - which I believe he will, I'd say Ferrari

2. Mercedes
3. Red Bull
4. Lotus
[Ferrari]
5. McLaren

[keysersoze]

Interesting thread. This is the first time I can remember having so many of the top teams with clear No. 1s and No. 2s, though of course several teams won't cop to it. Of the top 7-8 teams, the CVs of the teammates are dramatically different. You'd have to go all the way down to Toro Rosso to say with any certainty that teammates have achieved comparable F1 stats.

I'd have to go with Vettel-Webber, but barely. Driving talent from team-to-team seems remarkably even at the top.

[rjbetty]

Interesting thread. This is the first time I can remember having so many of the top teams with clear No. 1s and No. 2s, though of course several teams won't cop to it. Of the top 7-8 teams, the CVs of the teammates are dramatically different. You'd have to go all the way down to Toro Rosso to say with any certainty that teammates have achieved comparable F1 stats.

I'd have to go with Vettel-Webber, but barely. Driving talent from team-to-team seems remarkably even at the top.

1999 was a good one for teams having dominant drivers. I think Arrows were the only exception.

[Tazio]

I agree with Koz but Massa has to put together a consistantly good season so I'm giving the nod to:
1 Mercedes
2 Red Bull (tie)
2 Ferrari (tie)
4 Lotus
5 McLaren
6 FI
9 Williams (tie)
9 Sauber (tie)
9 Toro Rosso (tie)
These are my highly speculative choices, to me their are just too many unknowns.
I just can't wait to get this Barbeque started!

[jens]

Mercedes and Red Bull are quite close. Both have exceptional lead drivers and... well, now it depends on how good will Rosberg prove himself to be. But time is clearly on this side compared to Webber, who is already closing on retirement, so Mercedes is likely to edge ahead here.

If Massa can consistently be the kind of driver we saw in the late 2000s, then Ferrari is right up there as well. But on the whole the last three seasons haven't gone that way any more.

Can see some similarities between McLaren and Lotus. A consistent WDC team leader with an unproven and possibly inconsistent/error-prone young second driver. Only the season can show, which one proves to be better.

Others? A lot of young drivers. Overall not spectacular, but okayish line-ups.
Had Sauber retained Kobayashi, I'd say they would have a really solid line-up for a midfield team, but I fear Gutiérrez is going to get some beating.
Force India. I think it will be Bianchi instead of Senna. I think Bianchi is a pretty fast driver, but I don't think he is quite going to live up to the potential of Hülkenberg. So like Sauber, the line-up has slightly weakened.
Williams. Two (possibly) fast drivers, but Maldonado in particular is rather wild. However, unlike Sauber and FI they have everything to gain and nothing to lose in terms of driver performance, considering what a let-down 2012 was for them.
STR. Also they can only gain with some additional experience. But hard to tell, how good these drivers really are at this stage.
Caterham & Marussia. Well, what can I say. Proper backmarker line-ups. Don't really have the ability to threaten drivers in front, but aren't embarrasing or out of their depth either. Reminds me of the quartet of Karthikeyan, Monteiro, Friesacher and Albers from 2005 in the Jordans and Minardis. None of them were embarrasing, but none were going to set the world alight.

So I guess things are balanced this year. :D World champions in different top 5 teams. Bunch of midfielders and some promising drivers after them. And some unspectacular drivers at the back.

[steveaki13]

I want to see someone vote for Scorpion for the strongest 2013 lineup. :p

[tfp]

If Bunson has a stormer of a season like 2011 and checo performs as well in the mclaren as he has done (until he stopped scoring points....) then Id say mclaren.
I'm expecting more of the same from ferrari, and merc to be underdogs.

[zako85]

The answer to this question was much easier last year, since McLaren had two top flight drivers (and that didn't help them..). This year? who knows.. I am thinking probably the Mercedes duo.

[airshifter]

Tough choices. Most of the top teams have very good lead drivers, but they also have second drivers who have at best been inconsistent quite often.

If we look at the good seasons of either Massa or Webber the choice would be easy, but both drivers have also had very poor seasons. I'm inclined to lean towards Mercedes, but overall I'm still not sure Rosberg is really as good as some think he is. I guess only time will tell how he compares to Lewis when in equal cars. Grosjean has potential but needs to settle in and stay out of trouble. With Button becoming the number one driver and Perez moving up, they might find the motivations to become quite a duo if the car is up to par this year, but both of these drivers has also had some less than stunning races.

For me, just to hard to pick a pair of drivers right now.


Red Bull, Ferrari, Lotus, Mercedes and McLaren all have potentially very good driver combinations.

[Garry Walker]

The best driver pairings are probably Mercedes and Ferrari. Both have superb lead drivers. Rosberg is quick enough and Massa, when performing like he did at the end of last year (not like at the beginning of the season) is a very very fast driver, a top 5 one. So if Massa can keep up the form of last season's end, then I would rate Ferrari's pairing as the best, then Mercedes.

It is very difficult to rate who is third best. Lotus has the best driver outside Mercedes and Ferrari in Kimi, but Grosjean is not a consistent driver. But when on, he is extremely fast. So I would probably give them an edge over McLaren.

McLaren has Button, who is a very good driver, but not the level of the top 3. Perez, well, he is too hard to rate at the moment. But both are very good drivers obviously.

The other pairings are clearly inferior to the 4 mentioned.

Red Bull should be disqualified from being mentioned anywhere high in his list only based on the fact that Bieber, despite having the by far the best car the last 4 years actually lost 1 title and had two titles go down the wire against a far inferior Ferrari. Just as impressive as a girl with A-cup breasts telling everyone, hey, look at how big breasts I have :laugh: :laugh:
Webber makes the joke even bigger, how many drivers spend 4 years in the best car and don't even take nr.2 place in WDC. Complete joke. But of course, I will make an excuse for him in that he obviously is not wanted in that team to win, rather just come 2nd behind Marko's dreamboy.

Hulkenberg was seriously impressive in the 2nd half of last year, if he keeps up this form he will change my opinion about him being very overrated, he was very good. He might just be the 4th best driver in world right now based on last year's form.
Gutierrez is a unproven quality, let's see what he can do. But I guess at least he has not had 4 years in by far the best car and only scored two 3rd places in WDC :laugh:

Williams probably has a very far pairing, in that Maldonado, when on, he a very very fast driver, but he makes too many mistakes.
Bottas is a rookie, but I have high hopes for him. If he manages to match Maldonado speedwise, then that would be superb.


Mercedes and Red Bull are quite close. Both have exceptional lead drivers
I can understand Mercedes, but Red Bull doesn't have Alonso or Kimi.

[Knock-on]

This ones tricky.

The Bulls will be strong and webber will come good this year IF they are challenged. Glass jaw will make mistakes (crash into everyone)

Merc should be right in there IF the car is as good as I expect.

Lotus will be solid but...

Ferrari will be very strong IF Massa pulls his weight.

Lots of IF's but IF is F1 backwards ;)

[airshifter]

This ones tricky.

The Bulls will be strong and webber will come good this year IF they are challenged. Glass jaw will make mistakes (crash into everyone)

Merc should be right in there IF the car is as good as I expect.

Lotus will be solid but...

Ferrari will be very strong IF Massa pulls his weight.

Lots of IF's but IF is F1 backwards ;)


But much like me... no vote cast yet. I'm leaning towards one team farther and farther now... it's just that I'm not yet sure enough to vote!

[Natalie.S]

Red Bull and Ferrari with solid #2 drivers/race winners
After that McLaren, Mercedes and Lotus have solid but partly unproven line-ups

[The Black Knight]

I honestly feel that Merc have the strongest driver line up. My belief is because I feel that Rosberg is vastly underrated in general and my belief that since Hamilton was incredible last year that he will carry that momentum with him. It's definitely the most exciting pairing on the grid and I can't wait to see how Hamilton and Rosberg square up. I don't think Hamilton is going to have it all his own way but I do feel he'll edge it in the end.

[henners88]

I tend to agree Black Knight. Whether they will have the car to enable them to be regular race winners this season is anybody's guess. As far as talent goes side by side, Rosberg and Hamilton are without doubt the strongest pairing IMO.

[A FONDO]

Alonso is the best driver out there, Hamilton is close behind him. And I think Massa is still better than Rosberg, so Ferrari is my choice, Merc second. Third should be Lotus.

[The Black Knight]

Ferrari would be my second choice mainly because Alonso can bring so much and since Massa has been sleeping for 3 seasons it's very hard for me to rate him higher than Rosberg.

[steveaki13]

I think Mercedes are moving in the right direction. They have only been here as constructors 3 seasons which isnt long. I know they took over the Champion team, but changes were made and Brawns development in 2009 showed it wasnt going to stay a front runner for ever.

Anyway, I think their Cars have been decent in 2010 & 2011, last year it took a step forward early in the year. Seeming like the fastest car for a few qualifying sessions and of course their first win. They folded towards the end, but the next step has been to get in a currant top driver which they have done. If Lewis can win a couple of Races or challenge in some races, then I think its steady progress.

Hopefully their new car hits a sweet spot and they can build for next season.

[Zico]

I really can't decide between Red Bull or Mercedes but had to pick one and went with Merc.

[rjbetty]

Darn it, I jumped the gun putting Senna in the Force India... Just substitute any driver you want, I don't care anymore. :p

[airshifter]

OK so I finally voted... Alonso and Massa. I've convinced myself that Felipe will have a good year and return to form. It probably won't happen, but it probably won't happen with any other second driver either! :laugh:

[Tazio]

OK so I finally voted... Alonso and Massa. I've convinced myself that Felipe will have a good year and return to form. It probably won't happen, but it probably won't happen with any other second driver either! :laugh: I'm thinking I should have as well, but having picked Mercedes I can live with it.

[airshifter]

Mercedes is still probably my second pick. I just still see Nico as an unknown to some extent.

We know Felipe can put together a good season... somtimes.

[Tazio]

Absolutely! I will not be surprised if he does extremely well as he has stated that this year’s challenger feels much more drivable to him than what he referred to as "a disaster" the first time he drove last year’s challenger, and claims he told Luca di exactly that after his first test drive. I guess we will see!!

[steveaki13]

I really hope Felipe gets back amongst it as he did last season. If this car is better for him personally I can see him keeping Alonso in sight.

We need a Massa win this season.

[airshifter]

I really hope Felipe gets back amongst it as he did last season. If this car is better for him personally I can see him keeping Alonso in sight.

We need a Massa win this season.

That would be great to see. I think Felipe is due for a good season. I just hope I don't ruin it for him by wishing it. :)


As for the actual drivers question, the worst thing is we will never really know for sure, since we can never really be 100% sure who has the better cars overall and thus which drivers are getting the most out of the car. All we can really tell is which driver on a team is getting the most out of the car.

[In The Pits]

I agree regarding Mercedes, but we dont really know how good Nico is as he's not had a very good team mate for three years. OK he's consistently beaten schumacher, but thats not saying much, most drivers on the grid could have done that. We won't know how he compares with a TOP driver until we see a race or three, then we can gauge him better.

[Coulthard Fan]

Each team has there flaws!

With Mercedes you never know what Nico Rosberg will turn up he can have some brilliant races but he can be a very average racer! He's never going to be good enough to win a world title.

So I'm going to chose Red Bull hopefully mark will get some luck this year!

[rjbetty]

I agree regarding Mercedes, but we dont really know how good Nico is as he's not had a very good team mate for three years. OK he's consistently beaten schumacher, but thats not saying much, most drivers on the grid could have done that. We won't know how he compares with a TOP driver until we see a race or three, then we can gauge him better.

Hmmm I don't quite agree about so many beaqting Schumacher. While Michael was definitely not in Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso territory he was a genuine match for Nico last year and may on balance have actually done slightly better. He made some silly mistakes in Barcelona, Hungary and Singapore, but apart from that I couldn't much fault him really, apart from being 0.5 slower than Rosberg in China. But that was the only time all year really that that happened, unlike previous years when it was commonplace.

The only drivers I would say were definitely better in 2012 were the top 3, Raikkonen, Button and Webber, and that's it. The others I'm not really sure about. I think Michael was probably in the top 10 of drivers as others like Grosjean and Perez were too raw and inconsistent.

I expect Nico to be much better against Lewis in qualifying than Jenson was, and may surprise people - in qualifying at least - but he will maybe be destroyed in some races. On 2010 form Nico could possibly do as well as Jenson full stop.

[Tazio]

That would be great to see. I think Felipe is due for a good season. I just hope I don't ruin it for him by wishing it. :)


Some interesting comments by Fred, and Ted Macaulay:

Alonso (http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/alonso-s-gift-lifts-massa-1.1146316)

[rjbetty]

Scorpion are signing Brown, Jon Brow and henners88 on the strength of their PS3/XBox performances.

This could be the strong line-up that surpasses current leaders Hamilton and Rosberg, and Vettel and Webber in this poll.

"Scorpion Racing are delighted to announce Brown, Jon Brow and henners88 as their drivers for the 2013 season. We believe these are the drivers to take us ahead of Marussia and Caterham and their cr@ppy drivers", said the team statement.

Scorpion have yet to announce their reserve driver, but it is believed that Dr Giacomo Rappaccini and GloomyDAY are in the running for the role, as the team's new title sponsor, Amstrad are keen to expand into the American market.

The team have been saved at the 11th hour by major investment from business tycoon Alan Sugar. Lord Sugar had this to say:

"Ai'm looking for a racing team that can race, and earn me some bladdy munney. Naow, Ai'm not here to mess around. Ai'm a successful businessman and Ai didn't get where Ai am by messing araaand at the back with those bladdy losers Caterham... and what's tha' other team called again?

Naah Ai'm not interested in messing araahnd at the back. Ai'm in this business to win, and if Ai hear that our drivers have gone and bladdy messed it up at turn 1, Ai ain't gonna be very 'appy. Ai've got mai eye on them two, and if they don't deliver the kaind of resaults Ai'm lookin' for, they're both gonna be ahht the door."

[steveaki13]

Scorpion are signing Brown, Jon Brow and henners88 on the strength of their PS3/XBox performances.

This could be the strong line-up that surpasses current leaders Hamilton and Rosberg, and Vettel and Webber in this poll.

"Scorpion Racing are delighted to announce Brown, Jon Brow and henners88 as their drivers for the 2013 season. We believe these are the drivers to take us ahead of Marussia and Caterham and their cr@ppy drivers", said the team statement.

Scorpion have yet to announce their reserve driver, but it is believed that Dr Giacomo Rappaccini and GloomyDAY are in the running for the role, as the team's new title sponsor, Amstrad are keen to expand into the American market.

The team have been saved at the 11th hour by major investment from business tycoon Alan Sugar. Lord Sugar had this to say:

"Ai'm looking for a racing team that can race, and earn me some bladdy munney. Naow, Ai'm not here to mess around. Ai'm a successful businessman and Ai didn't get where Ai am by messing araaand at the back with those bladdy losers Caterham... and what's tha' other team called again?

Naah Ai'm not interested in messing araahnd at the back. Ai'm in this business to win, and if Ai hear that our drivers have gone and bladdy messed it up at turn 1, Ai ain't gonna be very 'appy. Ai've got mai eye on them two, and if they don't deliver the kaind of resaults Ai'm lookin' for, they're both gonna be ahht the door."

Based on this line up, I am going to invest funds into this venture and change the name of the team from Scorpian to MF F1.

MF F1 = Motorsport Forums F1 team.

[rjbetty]

Those drivers will at some point probably end up getting... fired!

So I think most of us would probably get a go at some point during the season.

[rjbetty]

Based on this line up, I am going to invest funds into this venture and change the name of the team from Scorpian to MF F1.

MF F1 = Motorsport Forums F1 team.

Press Release: Colin Kolles and Alex Schnaider have announced that they will take legal action against Scorpion Racing who want to change their name to MF F1, as it falls under the umbrella of MF1 and Midland Group, the shady Russian company that bought the Jordan team in 2005. The Midland group have announced they want to return to F1 in 2013 and are fighting for the use of the MF F1 name, which they want to change from MF1. Kolles claims the MF F1 is already in the process of being registered with the FIA. It is unknown what Midland intend the extra 'F' to stand for at this time, but the main possibilities include "flop" and "fishfinger".

"We are the true MF F1 team" declared Colin Kolles. "We are confident the courts will rule in our favour".

Lord Sugar, the owner of Amstrad Motorsport Forums F1 Team exclaimed "Bladdy ridiculous!! It's a shaambles! It's a bladdy shambles!"

Midland have announced that Narain Karthikeyan has been signed as their lead driver for their 2013 return. Motorsport Forums have announced that they will begin the season with an updated version of the 2012 HRT. A new car will be built by Amstrad in preparation for a planned debut at the Spanish Grand Prix in May.

The issue will now go to the courts in a situation that repeats the Lotus v Lotus debacle of 2011.

[airshifter]

Some interesting comments by Fred, and Ted Macaulay:

Alonso (http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/alonso-s-gift-lifts-massa-1.1146316)

Interesting. Strange for Alonso to do something like this, and rather risky as well IMO. I would think he would want to be in the car as much as possible to give input.

[Tazio]

I question how much truth there is to all of it as I think Macauley has done a fair bit of speculating in that article, but I do like the solidarity within the team. If the car comes good they really should be in the fight for the WCC, that is if Massa comes across with the goods.

[rjbetty]

I question how much truth there is to all of it as I think Macauley has done a fair bit of speculating in that article, but I do like the solidarity within the team. If the car comes good they really should be in the fight for the WCC, that is if Massa comes across with the goods.

This is a real possibility: If Alonso beats Vettel, then Massa just needs to beat Webber, which might not be hard this year if Mark's really had enough. And if Alonso beats Button, then Massa needs to outpoint Perez - this is a distinct possibility.

[truefan72]

Hmmm I don't quite agree about so many beaqting Schumacher. While Michael was definitely not in Hamilton/Vettel/Alonso territory he was a genuine match for Nico last year and may on balance have actually done slightly better. He made some silly mistakes in Barcelona, Hungary and Singapore, but apart from that I couldn't much fault him really, apart from being 0.5 slower than Rosberg in China. But that was the only time all year really that that happened, unlike previous years when it was commonplace.

The only drivers I would say were definitely better in 2012 were the top 3, Raikkonen, Button and Webber, and that's it. The others I'm not really sure about. I think Michael was probably in the top 10 of drivers as others like Grosjean and Perez were too raw and inconsistent.

I expect Nico to be much better against Lewis in qualifying than Jenson was, and may surprise people - in qualifying at least - but he will maybe be destroyed in some races. On 2010 form Nico could possibly do as well as Jenson full stop.

agreed
MSC was much better than his points indicated

[truefan72]

Based on this line up, I am going to invest funds into this venture and change the name of the team from Scorpian to MF F1.

MF F1 = Motorsport Forums F1 team.

lol

I'm good for some sidepod sponsorship
let's see how they do before I splurge more

[Knock-on]

I own all the rights, implied and actual, to any Forum F1 team from my tenure as team boss of Team Knock-on. I'm still owed millions of pounds and bottles of Champoo by that rogue Baggy Ecclestone!!

[Bagwan]

I own all the rights, implied and actual, to any Forum F1 team from my tenure as team boss of Team Knock-on. I'm still owed millions of pounds and bottles of Champoo by that rogue Baggy Ecclestone!!

Sir Bagly Ecclestone is sitting right here beside me , by his corinthian leather lined swimming pool , and he says he knows nothing about any so-called debt .
He just sent his grid girl lawyer team to the safe room to check on the champagne stock , as the pool is getting a bit low , but when they come back , he gonna ask them to prepare a defense of this latest shakedown , to see if he can use it in his purchase of Disney , who are going to be creating the other two races in the USA , in 3D .

[Garry Walker]

The only drivers I would say were definitely better in 2012 were the top 3, Raikkonen, Button and Webber,

Webber? LOL. What did he do? Waste the best car of the year and not even end in the top 3 at the end? Yeah, sure, he was brilliant LOL.

The Sauber is possibly the best car if you take team budget into account. There was a huge article on it in racecar engineering and some of the innovations on the car and how it is designed for efficiency is right up there with the McLarens and Red Bulls, this is quite an achievement for Sauber considering their sponsorship.

[EuroTroll]

The Sauber is possibly the best car if you take team budget into account. There was a huge article on it in racecar engineering and some of the innovations on the car and how it is designed for efficiency is right up there with the McLarens and Red Bulls, this is quite an achievement for Sauber considering their sponsorship.

Blimey, a coherent post! :eek: Not on topic, though. ;)

Come on fellow, post your link already! :D I'm dying to know what you're selling. :laugh:

[Joey Zyla]

If this is strictly down to the drivers (and not about car performance), then I'm going to go with Mercedes.



Webber? LOL. What did he do? Waste the best car of the year and not even end in the top 3 at the end? Yeah, sure, he was brilliant LOL.

LOL. Webber? LOL. LOL, I'm sure you could do better, LOL. LOL.

[steveaki13]

LOL. Webber? LOL. LOL, I'm sure you could do better, LOL. LOL.

You've met Garry then. LOL (To coin a phrase)

[Garry Walker]

LOL. Webber? LOL. LOL, I'm sure you could do better, LOL. LOL.

Well, I am not a F1 driver, but about 12-13 guys in F1 would do better with Red Bull than he has indeed.

[rjbetty]

Well, I am not a F1 driver, but about 12-13 guys in F1 would do better with Red Bull than he has indeed.

Wow you sure about that? I know form can vary and if he struggles that might be good, but I'm sure Webber is on average a top 6-8 driver at his normal level. But there are drivers coming up like Hulkenberg and Grosjean who look like overtaking him.

[teamleader]

Yeha i bet if u put like a driver from Catherham or Sauber in a Redbull or Ferrari they wil almost be the same pace.

[N4D13]

Yeha i bet if u put like a driver from Catherham or Sauber in a Redbull or Ferrari they wil almost be the same pace.
Perhaps on the same pace as Badoer...? Well, that was harsh - let's just say Fisichella. :p

[teamleader]

Whahah yeah that was realy bad, different driver then :D those were old haha
Some new young drivers got allot of potentional but driving in lower teams, and maby never geta chance to race for them.

[D-Type]

Let's face it: market forces are at work so the best drivers will almost inevitably end up with the best teams. Team managers aren't stupid - they will employ the drivers who, in their considered opinion, are the best available. If you like, interpret 'available' as ' willing to drive for them'. Likewise, drivers aren't stupid - they will drive for the best team in their considered opinion who will offer them a drive. At the top end the teams' decisions will be based on ability while at the bottom end they will be based on budget and sponsorship.
I'm sure there were those who thought that certain drivers in the 1906 [French] Grand Prix who felt they could do more with a Renault drive than Szicz. But Renault chose Szicz. Likewise, when Alonso made his F1 debut for Minardi who predicted that he would become Ferrari's first choice of driver, rather than any of the others who Minardi introduced to F1.

[rjbetty]

Perhaps on the same pace as Badoer...? Well, that was harsh - let's just say Fisichella. :p

:mad: :p

[Garry Walker]

Wow you sure about that? I know form can vary and if he struggles that might be good, but I'm sure Webber is on average a top 6-8 driver at his normal level. But there are drivers coming up like Hulkenberg and Grosjean who look like overtaking him.

The level hulkenberg drove at in the 2nd half of last season is the kind of level Webber has wet dreams about. Grosjean is also faster than Webber, but lacks experience. I would choose either of them over Webber easily, no questions asked.
Webber a top 8 driver? Well, if that was the case, why did he not finish in the top 3 last season considering he had by far the best car?

[henners88]

The level hulkenberg drove at in the 2nd half of last season is the kind of level Webber has wet dreams about. Grosjean is also faster than Webber, but lacks experience. I would choose either of them over Webber easily, no questions asked.
Webber a top 8 driver? Well, if that was the case, why did he not finish in the top 3 last season considering he had by far the best car?
Webber is one of those drivers that lacks consistency but on his day nobody can touch him. Those days just come around only 3 or so days a season.

[Garry Walker]

Webber is one of those drivers that lacks consistency but on his day nobody can touch him. Those days just come around only 3 or so days a season.

When was the last time he actually had that kind of a day?

[gloomyDAY]

When was the last time he actually had that kind of a day?Monaco 2012.

[Garry Walker]

Monaco 2012.

I don't think that drive was that special at all.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I don't think that drive was that special at all.

Every drive that lands you on the top-step of the podium is in some way special. Mark shone, before the Red Bull returned to its usual superiority last year, so that in itself is special enough for me. His big problem is that his handling preference and driving style is pretty much the opposite of his team mate, so when the car was Vettel'ed in the second half of the season, he sank like a rock. But he definitely showed glimpses of his old self in the early season.

[henners88]

I don't think that drive was that special at all.
I'd like to say I'm surprised but yours is likely a generic answer for any example given in response.

[steveaki13]

Say what you like about how brilliant the Red Bull is and how poor their drivers are, but to win in Monaco i above that.

Surely a drive around Monaco has less to do with the car and more with precision, concentration and skill and to win is the highest accolade

[Koz]

Surely a drive around Monaco has less to do with the car and more with precision, concentration and skill and to win is the highest accolade

What does that say about the pack that was following him?
Jesus. They have to also make sure they don't run into the back of him!

Kudos to him for getting pole, but that's essentially where the story of Monaco starts and ends.
Wish Mike didn't have the penalty. :(

[When was the last time pole didn't win in Monaco?]

[Zico]

[When was the last time pole didn't win in Monaco?]

2008? Massa pole but Hamilton won despite a puncture.

[Koz]

2008? Massa pole but Hamilton won despite a puncture.

Correct. And before that was 2003.

Twice in ten years!

Which really diminishes the significance of the race for me.
As long as you start on pole, if you [or your team] don't do anything too silly you will most likely win.
Even Karthikeyan could win from pole in Monaco, probably in any of the top 6 teams.

[steveaki13]

Correct. And before that was 2003.

Twice in ten years!

Which really diminishes the significance of the race for me.
As long as you start on pole, if you [or your team] don't do anything too silly you will most likely win.
Even Karthikeyan could win from pole in Monaco, probably in any of the top 6 teams.

I know the win is the most important aspect of a Grand Prix, but there are 23 other drivers battling around them. Kimi won from pole in 2005 easily, but behind was all matter of battles, incidents, overtakes, spins and pile ups

[Garry Walker]

Every drive that lands you on the top-step of the podium is in some way special. Mark shone, before the Red Bull returned to its usual superiority last year, so that in itself is special enough for me. His big problem is that his handling preference and driving style is pretty much the opposite of his team mate, so when the car was Vettel'ed in the second half of the season, he sank like a rock. But he definitely showed glimpses of his old self in the early season.
Yeah, if RB actually gave them both equal treatment, he would have maybe used the advantage of having by far the best car for 4 years in row and maybe even taken a title.


Say what you like about how brilliant the Red Bull is and how poor their drivers are, but to win in Monaco i above that.

Surely a drive around Monaco has less to do with the car and more with precision, concentration and skill and to win is the highest accolade
Monaco is just like every other track - you need a great car to win it. On that day Webber just held up the pack behind him, because no one can pass there. He didn't even get the pole. So there was nothing special about that race, just another typical Monaco race. Webber has had much better races than that.

[henners88]

Monaco is just like every other track - you need a great car to win it. On that day Webber just held up the pack behind him, because no one can pass there. He didn't even get the pole. So there was nothing special about that race, just another typical Monaco race. Webber has had much better races than that.
I agree. His previous Monaco win and British GP wins were superior to that example.

[jens]

Wow you sure about that? I know form can vary and if he struggles that might be good, but I'm sure Webber is on average a top 6-8 driver at his normal level. But there are drivers coming up like Hulkenberg and Grosjean who look like overtaking him.

I think this is a good estimation of about where Webber roughly sits in the F1 pecking order. On the fringes of being a top6 driver on the grid. In fact, you can argue that in his best seasons (2003, 2006, maybe 2007/08 as well?) he indeed was a top6 driver on the grid.

Let's take 2010 for example, his most recent championship challenge. Was Webber a top6 driver? Among title contenders I'd say he was the least convincing of all five title contenders, even though he had several great races. And behind them Kubica, Rosberg and also Barrichello all had very good seasons. So if I had to pick six drivers from that year, Webber would just – only just – miss out. And this is where I think his general level is. Still very good though.

[steveaki13]

I think this is a good estimation of about where Webber roughly sits in the F1 pecking order. On the fringes of being a top6 driver on the grid. In fact, you can argue that in his best seasons (2003, 2006, maybe 2007/08 as well?) he indeed was a top6 driver on the grid.

Let's take 2010 for example, his most recent championship challenge. Was Webber a top6 driver? Among title contenders I'd say he was the least convincing of all five title contenders, even though he had several great races. And behind them Kubica, Rosberg and also Barrichello all had very good seasons. So if I had to pick six drivers from that year, Webber would just – only just – miss out. And this is where I think his general level is. Still very good though.

I think Webber is a good driver, he is as you say one of those drivers in a 3rd bracket, that can score points and win if everything is in place.

However he is not in the bracket of a driver who can drag a dog around and win, or in the bracket of super consistancy who can win championships.

He is better than most F1 drivers in F1s history

[rjbetty]

I think this is a good estimation of about where Webber roughly sits in the F1 pecking order. On the fringes of being a top6 driver on the grid. In fact, you can argue that in his best seasons (2003, 2006, maybe 2007/08 as well?) he indeed was a top6 driver on the grid.

Let's take 2010 for example, his most recent championship challenge. Was Webber a top6 driver? Among title contenders I'd say he was the least convincing of all five title contenders, even though he had several great races. And behind them Kubica, Rosberg and also Barrichello all had very good seasons. So if I had to pick six drivers from that year, Webber would just – only just – miss out. And this is where I think his general level is. Still very good though.

I've always felt Webber was quite underrated, especially in his Williams day. He was regarded harshly by both the team and by people on the outside. I believe the failure was the car and that Webber was actually very impressive, especially in 2006, though he says he fell off towards the end of the year. His qualifying lap at the Nurburgring in 2005 (fuel corrected would have been pole against the McLarens and Renaults) and his drives at Monaco (fighting for the win with Alonso and Raikkonen who had better cars) and Melbourne 2006 (led part of the race and ran 3rd) were absolute top drawer stuff where he drove out of his skin.

[rjbetty]

I think Webber is a good driver, he is as you say one of those drivers in a 3rd bracket, that can score points and win if everything is in place.

However he is not in the bracket of a driver who can drag a dog around and win, or in the bracket of super consistancy who can win championships.

He is better than most F1 drivers in F1's history

Pretty much agree. But I sadly think Webber has peaked, especiallly given I read earlier how he was talking about aiming for the podium and staying in F1 as long as he is competitive. When I hear a driver talk about remaining competitive, I basically hear that as them admitting they've peaked and are gradually sliding down the hill from now on.

Therefore, I expect a rejuvenated Massa will perform better, as will Rosberg. I expect Vettel, Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton and Button to do the same followed by Nico Hulkenberg who is looking ready. That would put Webber 8th or 9th at best. I'm not certain that Grosjean or Maldonado will perform at a higher level over the whole season than Webber; maybe they need a bit more experience and consistency first.

It's looking like the Mercedes line-up will be the overall strongest if their car is that good, as it will enable the drivers to give more of themselves. They look like they've won this poll. :)

[steveaki13]

I think this will be Webbers last season at Red Bull.

Its whether he retires at the top team or drops down for one final fun hoorah as DC did.

[jens]

I think this will be Webbers last season at Red Bull.

Its whether he retires at the top team or drops down for one final fun hoorah as DC did.

Every year it is said it could be Webber's last, but... :p : Depends if anyone from the midfield (Hülkenberg, Bottas, a STR driver) can impress enough this year to convince RBR to take a gamble. I think this has enabled Mark to stay on all those years, because RBR hasn't been completely convinced in any of the young drivers yet.

I think Webber may retire after the RBR stint. It depends on his mentality, but he may not be the kind of driver, who wants to hang around just for the fun of it in midfield and backmarker teams. He spent enough time in midfield in the early phase of his career already. That's a contrast to Coulthard, who before joining RBR had only been in top teams and it was a new challenge for him.

[airshifter]

It occurred to me earlier that we could easily come up with a way to track results between team drivers to see who on this poll was correct. We could add the time margins between drivers over the season, then see what the total time margins are at seasons end. Obviously we would have to make some agreement on how to treat a DNF that was car failure, as would be the case at Oz with Nico and Lewis.

Being that we can't control the variables of all cars, I would think time deltas (rather than points) is overall a better indication of who is driving well. Surely luck would still play a part at times, but that is racing. We could also establish a method to "score" a time delta if one of the drivers causes an accident, adding a set XXX seconds as the DNF due to their own stupidity type score.

With a spreadsheet it shouldn't be all that hard to track. Just a thought, if anyone is interested give input on how you think we should do it.

[rjbetty]

This sounds really interesting, and the kind of thing that is up my street (I'm qualified in MS Excel) :D Will give it some thought.

[BDunnell]

Every year it is said it could be Webber's last, but... :p : Depends if anyone from the midfield (Hülkenberg, Bottas, a STR driver) can impress enough this year to convince RBR to take a gamble. I think this has enabled Mark to stay on all those years, because RBR hasn't been completely convinced in any of the young drivers yet.

I think Webber may retire after the RBR stint. It depends on his mentality, but he may not be the kind of driver, who wants to hang around just for the fun of it in midfield and backmarker teams. He spent enough time in midfield in the early phase of his career already. That's a contrast to Coulthard, who before joining RBR had only been in top teams and it was a new challenge for him.

Very possibly. But I can easily imagine him in another form of motorsport, such as V8 Supercars.