WSBK, will history repeat?

[ChrisS]

Batta told Gazzetta dello Sport that if the 1200cc twins rules passes he could take his team and rider (Biaggi) and move to MotoGP.

I realize that at this point Batta is most likely just trying to sent a massage that he doesn't like the proposed rules but this could turn bad for WSBK

crash.net also reports that Ten Kate is also considering MotoGP (it doesnt say this has anything to do with the rule chance).

So if the new rules put the 1000cc I4s in a serious disadvantage over the 1200cc twins could that be the incentive for teams to jump ship? equally bad, all the teams could start running 1200cc Ducatis, making WSBK a Ducati cup once again

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/57732

[leopard]

Technically, how much different of SPEED between the twin 1200cc and currently 4 cylinder 1000 cc? Their power might work on the straight, but in the whole race faster isn’t a guarantee they will win over smaller bike of 1000cc. Likewise, the smaller 800 cc bike of motogp isn’t too much differ to the old bigger one, they are in many occasion looks more friendly noting down the better time.

What have prompted the changes? At the moment, the map of power of all teams is almost equal. This change, Ducati might take benefit from it prior to the rest teams, although they could adopt the same technology to comply the regulation with, it doesn’t seem such revolution feels comfortable, a contrariwise towards change of engine rules taken effect in motogp.

New regulation as such, looks like as change unfavorably for Suzuki and Biaggi which performs amazingly beyond everyone’s expectation, and could possibly be regular challenger in the second season onward once he gets used to ride WSBK. Is this the reason behind the changes? It could be something isn’t out of question.

There is another rift behind Corona’s threatening to leave WSBK for motogp, they feel with Biaggi there, considering Batta has denied that this would be the end of Biaggi’s career, they have a ‘fit and proper test’ going up to the more prestigious class of motogp than currently in WSBK. Personally I’d rather suggest Biaggi to shape stronger footing in WSBK and gain at least a title, as the stepping stone if he is adamant to make a come back to motogp . Motogp is obviously tighter place for everyone to ride.

[Kropotkin]

What have prompted the changes? At the moment, the map of power of all teams is almost equal. This change, Ducati might take benefit from it prior to the rest teams, although they could adopt the same technology to comply the regulation with, it doesn’t seem such revolution feels comfortable, a contrariwise towards change of engine rules taken effect in motogp.

The changes would benefit Ducati, but mostly in terms of cost. Currently, teams are allowed to make a lot more changes to the engines of twins than they are for four cylinders. This means that Ducati can do more to get more power out, but they have to strip and rebuild the engines a lot more regularly, which gets very expensive for a small factory like Ducati.

The changes would allow twins more capacity (up to 1200 cc), but then restrict the engine modifications to make them equal for both fours and twins. So they should end up more or less equal.

[AndyRAC]

Personally, it doesn't matter what changes they make, WSBK is fighting a losing battle against MotoGP, they should just accept that the glory days have gone, and remember them with fondness. MotoGP rules nowadays, though for some reason the British fans still turn out in greater numbers for Brands Hatch WSBK than for MotoGP, no wonder there are no British riders in MotoGP.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

It seems that Batta is mostly angry about the fact that everybody knows Ducati will get their way, with no discussion. He was one of the guys that stomped off when the one-tyre rule was pushed through without consultation.
Everybody's deeply cynical about the whole thing because clearly Ducati want to win, they don't want to have a level playing field. Everybody wants the unfair advantage. A 1200cc twin would have a clear advantage on tight, twisty tracks due to its enormous torque.
Ducati run a V4 in MotoGP. A lot of people in WSBK think that if Ducati's V-twin isn't competitive in WSBK, they should either build a V4 superbike or get stuffed.

[ChrisS]

The changes would allow twins more capacity (up to 1200 cc), but then restrict the engine modifications to make them equal for both fours and twins. So they should end up more or less equal.

In theory they should be equal but in reality Ducati will have an advantage. WSBK always gave advantage to the twin cylinder machines since the 851 vs 750cc days leading up to the 998 vs 750cc

The 1098 is pretty close to the inlines, it was right up there at the superstock race at Donington and with a bit of luck since the leaders crashed won the race and that was just the S.

Restricting engine modifications can easily be bypassed since Ducati can make a homologation special R version

[patnicholls]

Personally, it doesn't matter what changes they make, WSBK is fighting a losing battle against MotoGP, they should just accept that the glory days have gone, and remember them with fondness. MotoGP rules nowadays, though for some reason the British fans still turn out in greater numbers for Brands Hatch WSBK than for MotoGP, no wonder there are no British riders in MotoGP.

Hmmm, I don't agree with this really.

Granted, when MotoGP went to the 990s it seemed they were moving in on WSB's territory a bit, but it didn't present much of a problem and with the 800s they've gone their own way again.

WSB as an entity has only been going 20 years in total as it is, and the first few it was pretty small-scale (until about 1993, really). 2003 was a bit of a lull with the Japanese manufacturers pulling out, but things are back as strong as ever in the past few years imho. Troy B's success at Valencia helped out with the perception of WSB vs MotoGP, I think.

And, for what it's worth, I don't think there's any battle between MotoGP and WSB - it's not like a Champ Car/IRL situation in bike racing, everyone I know enjoys both. There's room for both too - the difference between prototypes and production bikes means that they will always be separate. As far as I'm concerned, WSB has little to worry about.

Brit fans turn out for Superbikes more for many reasons - probably one of the main ones being that we've had three Superbike world champions, and only one GP has been won by a Brit in 20 years. Although to be fair the GP attendance at Donington has gone up massively since 1999 and there's a big crowd there these days.

[The Phantom]

I really don't understand the 'screw WSB, MotoGP is better' line of thinking.

Would a real motorcycle racing fan be happy to see the demise of a series? I for one like the fact that this year there are 31 individual world championship events for me to enjoy - take WSB away and we're left with 18 events.

If said motorcycle racing fan was also a motorcycle rider, would they enjoy and appreciate the massive advances in roadbike technology that filter down from production racing? Not much of what's going on in MotoGP at the moment is going to be seen in streetbikes in the near future, but next years R1 will benefit from this years racing program. And without WSB we would not have bikes like the RC30/45, RSV Mille, even the 916 was developed with WSB in mind. The 1098 is the latest of these great machines, and we'll have an Aprilia V4 soon too - I doubt whether Aprilia would bother building a V4 if they didn't have a performance war to win.

Anyway, back to the point - I'm sceptical of the level of parity that would result with a 1200cc capacity limit, but the unfortunate fact is that I4s and V2s can never truly compete on an equal footing.

I sort of predicted the capacity increase with something I wrote to the US VFR Mailing list a couple of years ago... (please excuse the factual errors! : )

https://lists.cs.wisc.edu/archive/vfr/2005-June/msg00634.shtml

Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2005 13:04:41 +1000
From: murray@xxxxxxxxx
Subject: Why the V5 roadbike must be a 1200

Food for thought.

1000cc sportsbikes are where it's at if you're talking absolute performance in
2005. But not so long ago it was the 750s which were at the forefront of
performance development. Why the shift? And what's in the future?

Motorcycle engine capacity has centred on a number of set sizes, for various
reasons - cost, number of cylinders, engine harmonics, and racing regulations
being just a few. But, by and large, capacities have slowly been creeping up
over the years - keeping pace with chassis and tyre improvements, and assisted
by ever-improving manufacturing techniques and technologies.

In the '60's, a 500 was a relatively big bike - 250 and 350 engines were the go
for most racing. Four strokes were countering two strokes with larger
capacities - although you could get an oilburner up to 750cc - and riders found
they preferred the torque of a 4-stroke over the top-end of a 2-stroke. Honda
sealed the deal with the 1968 CB750, which overnight made all other bikes
virtually obsolete.

The 750s dominated the '70's - by now the other manufacturers had worked out how
to tame the stresses that such big capacity motors put through their blocks.
However, to go bigger meant bigger castings to handle the stresses, larger
ports and associated plumbing to handle the higher gas volumes, a beefier
chassis to keep the whole plot together... the bike simply became too heavy to
be an effective racer. So, while the 1000cc zone continued to be explored by
engineers, 750 development continued unabated - the '80s introduction of
'Superbike' racing helping to cement the class as the leading production-based
racing class, and producing a generation of classic race replicas such as the
GSX-R, ZXR/ZX-7R, and of course the Honda RC range. The importance of the 750
class is perhaps most strikingly reflected in the capacity of Honda's all-time
flagship bike, the NR - still the most expensive production bike ever built.

Meanwhile, manufacturing techniques and technology advanced - in 1984, Kawasaki,
no stranger at the time to 900cc motors, got the ball rolling with the GPZ900R,
and Honda upped the ante with the original 1992 Fireblade - the bike that was
to eventually render the demise of the 750 class, by forcing other
manufacturers to follow suite or lose sales. Yamaha hit the ground running with
the R1 - from the very first model, a bike that has been at the forefront of
sporstbike performance measures.

Fast-forward to the Naughties, and the 1000cc class is firmly entrenched -
indeed, Superbike rules now render 750s uncompetitive. The engines are the size
of 600cc engines! Technology continues to shrink engines - 5mm here, 8g there.
It also allows the massive power to be tamed, with the addition of airbox
flappers, ramp slipper clutches, and ever more sophisticated engine management
tuning.

The 600s themselves are making 750 power and also shrinking in size and weight.
So why not bump up the capacity a bit to get a lead on the others? Hello 636
Kawasaki and 650 Triumph. The Supersport class limit of 600cc doesn't seem to
worry them - road riders want more grunt, I'd rather have more power than have
the bike that took the title last year.

It's now only a matter of time before someone cracks the 1000cc ceiling for
their hypersport to get the same advantage. Susuki's already been there with
their GSX-R - in 1988! I bet they go first with their current bike.

The current crop of 1000cc bikes are the 750s of the age - tomorrows dinosaurs.
The next frontier means capacities of 1100 to 1200cc - effectively pushing the
Busa, Bird and ZX-12R to go even higher, probably to 1500cc. They'll still
weigh the same, or less, but that extra capacity will make for even more
midrange punch, and a top end to scare your fillings out.

Therefore, there's little sense in Honda releasing a V5 roadbike with capacity
of 1000cc or less - it's already a physically small motor, and Honda already
has a 1000cc hypersport with plenty of model development left. Stretch the V5
to 1200cc and build the CBR1000s successor around it - maybe even call it the
RVF1200?

Regards,
Murray

[Mach24]

WSB should not allow any manufacturer to hijack the series again. It did happen once before and Ducati are pivotal in keeping this series alive and fueling the passion. However I believe the series would be greatly damaged if it headed down a well worn path by giving one particular manufacturer a concession.

The 999 is currently competitive if not the benchmark!

The only thing the series lacks is depth in quality riders this year (Rolfo, Lanzi), throw some young exciting talent at the series and keep the specs as they are. The series will bloom.

[ArmchairBikeFan]

Rolfo has shown he's a very quick rider in 250GP, he just can't get to grips with a superbike. Lanzi had stunning results when he first arrived in WSBK, but never really recovered from a family bereavement.
Maybe if they let Ducati run a 1200 twin with an air restrictor it would be alright. WSBK would certainly be wrong caving in to Ducati's every request, that's why Batta is so livid about the seeming 1200cc shoo-in.

[patnicholls]

Yeah over the past season-and-a-bit I have wrongly been filing Roby Rolfo as an also-ran, he did win 250Gps (when not on the best bike) and was second in the championship one year I seem to remember, so he's no slouch.

His 2006 started well and faded, but he's going back in the right direction this year so far on a new bike. Lanzi is kind of there-or-abouts but not quite with the leaders, but still not too bad.

---------------------------------

As for the 1200s, we had all this chat last year.

It was concluded that the tuning of the bikes needs to be carefully managed, then it should be alright.

I'm in agreement that WSB shouldn't cave to anyone's demands and give them a big advantage, but then again if it wasn't for Ducati then WSB wouldn't have survived through 2003/4 when all the Japanese manufacturers bailed.

Besides, the 1098 Ducati is running in Superstock, and they seem to have got that management of that right - it was the same pace as the rest of the leaders at Donington. So I'm not worrying about the 1200s.

[maxu05]

I think the formula is spot on now. You have a 1000cc limit, and if you choose to run a V twin and can't keep up, tough chedder IMO. Perhaps they could have weight differences for each configuration, such as they do in Motogp. I am not suggesting that WSBK should follow the same path as Motogp, but I believe that the limit should be 1000cc for everyone. What if Aprilia decides to make a 1 wheel bike ? Can they have a 1500cc engine for the disadvantage of having only 1 wheel ? Sure, the Ducati V twin is an icon, but, if the company states that it has reached the peak of it's developement, that's not a good advertisement for their road bikes IMO. While the Japanese companies continue to develop more high tech inline fours and V4's for the road, they are going to attract more customers that want the latest, most high tech and powerfull bikes. Why doesn't Ducati just build a V4 superbike ? There will still be a market for their traditional V2 fare i'm sure. Oh well, I'll get back in my box now.

[Mach24]

I think the formula is spot on now. You have a 1000cc limit, and if you choose to run a V twin and can't keep up, tough chedder IMO. Perhaps they could have weight differences for each configuration, such as they do in Motogp. I am not suggesting that WSBK should follow the same path as Motogp, but I believe that the limit should be 1000cc for everyone. What if Aprilia decides to make a 1 wheel bike ? Can they have a 1500cc engine for the disadvantage of having only 1 wheel ? Sure, the Ducati V twin is an icon, but, if the company states that it has reached the peak of it's developement, that's not a good advertisement for their road bikes IMO. While the Japanese companies continue to develop more high tech inline fours and V4's for the road, they are going to attract more customers that want the latest, most high tech and powerfull bikes. Why doesn't Ducati just build a V4 superbike ? There will still be a market for their traditional V2 fare i'm sure. Oh well, I'll get back in my box now.

Damn straight.... What if Kawasaki produce a sports ZX13 (or a 636 for that matter), maybe we should lift the limit to 1300cc.

I could go on about this and piss people off but I won't.

On the other side of the coin, if Ducati are producing a 1098 and superseding the 999 we have an issue on our hands. Then the 1098 needs to be adapted to our 'production' championship or banned!

No one wants to see Ducati out of WSB, Ducati are iconic and essential to the success of WSB, as is H,Y,S & K. Bring on MV and Aprillia.

[NinjaMaster]

Damn straight.... What if Kawasaki produce a sports ZX13 (or a 636 for that matter), maybe we should lift the limit to 1300cc.

I could go on about this and piss people off but I won't.

On the other side of the coin, if Ducati are producing a 1098 and superseding the 999 we have an issue on our hands. Then the 1098 needs to be adapted to our 'production' championship or banned!

No one wants to see Ducati out of WSB, Ducati are iconic and essential to the success of WSB, as is H,Y,S & K. Bring on MV and Aprillia.

The Phantoms post pretty much answers this. If Kawasaki make a ZX13 and 1300's are what the marketplace demands and 1000cc bikes are phased out then Superbikes, World or National must follow suit. Ducati are running a superceded model that they don't build anymore but I'd rather see the rules amended to 1100cc to accomodate their production model rather than 1200cc for a homologated race machine.
I'm with ya on MV and Aprilia and hopefully KTM and others will join as well.



I think the formula is spot on now. You have a 1000cc limit, and if you choose to run a V twin and can't keep up, tough chedder IMO. Perhaps they could have weight differences for each configuration, such as they do in Motogp. I am not suggesting that WSBK should follow the same path as Motogp, but I believe that the limit should be 1000cc for everyone. What if Aprilia decides to make a 1 wheel bike ? Can they have a 1500cc engine for the disadvantage of having only 1 wheel ? Sure, the Ducati V twin is an icon, but, if the company states that it has reached the peak of it's developement, that's not a good advertisement for their road bikes IMO. While the Japanese companies continue to develop more high tech inline fours and V4's for the road, they are going to attract more customers that want the latest, most high tech and powerfull bikes. Why doesn't Ducati just build a V4 superbike ? There will still be a market for their traditional V2 fare i'm sure. Oh well, I'll get back in my box now.

Remember that the formula was pretty much spot on (racing wise) during the mid-nineties with the 750's until they became an irrelevant class. Ducati currently build, and will only ever build V-Twin sportbikes. That is their heritage and reputation. If they changed from that formula, I think they would suffer a customer backlash. Unfortunately for them to remain competitive as a roadbike against the 4 cylinder 1000's, Ducati have 2 options: go more hi-tech and use exotic components or increase capacity. In the interests of costs, the latter was the only feasible option. It is now up to the superbike authorities to get parity correct so everyone is on a fairly level playing field.


Restricting engine modifications can easily be bypassed since Ducati can make a homologation special R version

Superbike racing has been littered with homogation model and not just from Ducati. Yamaha R7 & R1-SP, Kwak ZX7RR, Honda RC30/41 so that is open to all and Japan inc have more resources to go that route than Ducati anyway so it is a moot point.

[maxu05]

Try as I might, I just can't see Ducati's point. A Ducati costs more than all the Japanese manufacturers hypersport bikes, yet, the Ducati V2 has reached it's peak and the Japanese manufacturers continue to make their bikes faster, cleaner, leaner with top notch quality. If the object of competing in motorsport is to promote your product and sell more of it, it doesn't make sense for a company to state that they can't keep up because their engine is obsolete, yet, state that that engine is their history and their future ? I remember Harley Davidson producing their new V Rod, and shocking many people (traditionalists) in the process, but they still make the old design bikes as well, and it hasn't hurt them, and they still have their loyal customers and fans. Why can't Ducati just build a V4 (like in their Motogp bike), stick it in a chassis, and market it as the range topper of the marque ? I'm sure they will still be selling plenty of their traditional bikes as well. Why are they in MotoGP ? Isn't that to experiment with new technology, bosst the image and sell more product ? They built the V4 engine, and it kicks ass. Tell me if they brought out a Hypersport Ducati with this engine (I know they have a limited run model, but not a mainstream edition) that you wouldn't want to own one ? I want to run in the Olympics in the 100m sprint, and considering that I am 40 years old, I smoke and drink lots of beer, I weigh only 75 kg I think I should be allowed to run with a 50m head start, and all these 9 second/100m sprinters should be made to carry a piano ! Sounds fair to me, I better get started on the training. :laugh:

[Corny]

Ten Kate will stay in WSBK! Even if they'd go to MotoGP

[ChrisS]

Superbike racing has been littered with homogation model and not just from Ducati. Yamaha R7 & R1-SP, Kwak ZX7RR, Honda RC30/41 so that is open to all and Japan inc have more resources to go that route than Ducati anyway so it is a moot point.

The difference with the Japanese 750cc homogation specials is that they had to effectively produce mini MotoGP bikes because of the 250cc disadvantage

Ducati needs to make homogation racing bikes because they insist in using an engine configuration that has reach the end of its development

[NinjaMaster]

Try as I might, I just can't see Ducati's point. A Ducati costs more than all the Japanese manufacturers hypersport bikes, yet, the Ducati V2 has reached it's peak and the Japanese manufacturers continue to make their bikes faster, cleaner, leaner with top notch quality. If the object of competing in motorsport is to promote your product and sell more of it, it doesn't make sense for a company to state that they can't keep up because their engine is obsolete, yet, state that that engine is their history and their future ? I remember Harley Davidson producing their new V Rod, and shocking many people (traditionalists) in the process, but they still make the old design bikes as well, and it hasn't hurt them, and they still have their loyal customers and fans. Why can't Ducati just build a V4 (like in their Motogp bike), stick it in a chassis, and market it as the range topper of the marque ? I'm sure they will still be selling plenty of their traditional bikes as well. Why are they in MotoGP ? Isn't that to experiment with new technology, bosst the image and sell more product ? They built the V4 engine, and it kicks ass. Tell me if they brought out a Hypersport Ducati with this engine (I know they have a limited run model, but not a mainstream edition) that you wouldn't want to own one ? I want to run in the Olympics in the 100m sprint, and considering that I am 40 years old, I smoke and drink lots of beer, I weigh only 75 kg I think I should be allowed to run with a 50m head start, and all these 9 second/100m sprinters should be made to carry a piano ! Sounds fair to me, I better get started on the training. :laugh:

The V-Rod shocked people because Fartley-Davidson actually used some modern technology (water cooled engine - amazing! :s hock: ) and some updated styling. Other than that, it ticks the Harley boxes - massive V-twin cruiser.

I am a traditionalist. I like my Kawasaki's to be green, grid girls to be sexy and Ducati's to be v-twins. Ducati build v-twins. That is who they are and always have been. It's not all about building the most efficient, cold-blooded race winner for the street. Ducati are about tradition and passion. That is their point. To my limited knowledge, Ducati have never built a production motorcycle that wasn't a v-twin and that is what they are known and loved for. They won't build a v-twin and four cylinder sportsbike just like Honda don't make VTR-Sp's anymore and Suzuki don't make TL-R's because development is stretched too far. I'm assuming that Aprilia will drop the RSV for it's new V4 superbike which leaves Ducati as the only v-twin sportsbike model available. Take that away and you are left only with 4 cylinder bikes and where is the fun in that?

On the Olympics thing, you don't need to hold the others back like that, just take more drugs than they do! :laugh:



The difference with the Japanese 750cc homogation specials is that they had to effectively produce mini MotoGP bikes because of the 250cc disadvantage

Ducati needs to make homogation racing bikes because they insist in using an engine configuration that has reach the end of its development

Ducati have used homologation models for a long time, no matter how much development was left in it's motor. The homologation models are build to allow greater flexibility for tuning and setup with higher spec equipment. And their is nothing stopping the Japanese manufacturers from following Yamaha's lead and building the equivalent of their R1-SP model. Or doing like Honda and taking Ducati on at their own game and building a v-twin. I can't see why parity can't be reached between 1100/1200 twins (and triples?) and 1000 fours through weight and tuning penalties.

[The Phantom]

To my limited knowledge, Ducati have never built a production motorcycle that wasn't a v-twin and that is what they are known and loved for.

Ducati officially built their first motorcycles in 1950 and didn't build a twin until 1973, but I understand what you mean. However, it's only 35 years of history - not 350 years, or even the 100 years that Harley can claim.

Ducati also built a V4 in the '60s (a real pity that one never took off!) so they have never been shy of taking a new direction - their current v-twin thing is basically a marketing strategy - hey we only have one engine and no money to develop another, so let's exploit the fact that no-one else builds twins - very clever strategy! Having said that, I have no doubt of their belief in their engine.

It's like Ferrari refusing to build anything other than V12 motors, or Porsche only building flat sixes (err, hang on there...) No-one can take anything away from what Ducati does, their twins and the Desmosedici are simply amazing machines, but for a change perhaps Ducati could do what all the other manufacturers do, and build a bike to suit (read: exploit) the rules that apply to all? Show a little humility there, Ducati... you build amazing bikes, we all know it, now let's see what you can do within the limitations. You aren't exactly struggling to build a competitive MotoGP bike now, are you? and you can't exactly use THAT for 'Win on Sunday, sell on Monday'.

Oh, and if there were only V4s available, I'd be quite happy thank you : ) I'm a major fan of Honda's V4s, and the Aprilia is likely to go to the top of my list when it appears.


I can't see why parity can't be reached between 1100/1200 twins (and triples?) and 1000 fours through weight and tuning penalties.

Haven't we already been down that path? Cue 1200cc R1s, GSX-Rs, ZX-Rs and Fireblades... and Big 4 lobbying for a 1200cc 4cyl limit...

Nothing new under the sun.

[The Phantom]

Oops forgot to write this bit...


Ducati currently build, and will only ever build V-Twin sportbikes. That is their heritage and reputation. If they changed from that formula, I think they would suffer a customer backlash.

From who? The Ducati tragics with their 860GTs, 900SS's, Pantahs etc.? They aren't likely to be buying a new Duc anyway, regardless of what engine configuration it has. I see the same thing in the Ford GT scene (Australia) where the 1967-76 GT owners (or wannabes) carry on about the latest GT as if the only thing stopping them walking into the showroom tomorrow is the paint/stripes/lack of a shaker/insert cliche here. Most people who would love to buy a new Duc (that's most of us here BTW) wouldn't care if it had 2 or 4 round things in the motor, so long as it was a V and it looked, sounded and rode the way we imagine a Duc should. And Ducati could renew its attack on WSB with something that fitted the regulations, and that the Big 4 would really need to work hard to beat... so where is it???

As an afterthought, I can see that if Ducati were to struggle for a year or three with a new design there could well be a sales backlash, but their track record (for want of a better term) with new racebikes is enviable. They really have nothing to lose.

Perhaps they are simply arrogant?

[NinjaMaster]

Yeah, their good points and I see where you're coming from Phantom. I guess I'm probably a bit dreamy and would love to see a mix of twins, triples, v4's and inline 4's rather than see roadbikes headed the way of the old 500's where an ultimate formula was reached that everyone followed and I can see MotoGP heading down the same track. That and the 1098 is too good looking a bike to keep off the racetrack! :up:

[The Phantom]

I love to see various configs out there too NinjaMaster, it's great for the sport and the fans.

Didn't Chili run a 998 with a 999 motor or something like that? Someone should put a 999 Testastretta motor into a 1098 and go WSB racing : )

[The Phantom]

Got the latest Australian Motorcycle News (AMCN), there's an interview with Paolo Flammini of FGSports. The pertinant question/answer:

Will we see the 1200cc rules come in for 2008? And will Ducati be allowed to race its 1098 in world Superbike?

"This is something that we cannot predict. At the moment, the FIM made a statement confirming the rules for 2007-08 (with no 1200cc allowable).
It is clear that the twin cylinder market is moving towards different capacities, and because the world Superbike championship should be a mirror of the market we cannot forget about that.
So we are working towards the situation and we will see what the result of this announces."

So, he's not saying much, but his point about WSB having to reflect the market is a valid one.

However, the "twin cylinder market" in question consists of one player only; he could have just as easily said "It is clear that Ducati is moving towards different capacities"...

[NinjaMaster]

There was also talk that KTM's (hopefully) coming RC8(?) superbike would be a 1200 twin. That would be very tasty. :facelick: It would be nice to see such t-twin rules entice the likes of BMW to the party as well but perhaps I'm dreaming a bit big now. :)

[jaybond]

Hi,

I think WSBK needs that variety to keep it alive and exciting, whether in terms of manufacturers or engine configurations.Big 4 vs the bests of Europe.

I think they should allow the Ducati 1098 , BUT NOT Ducati 1200.
100cc difference should'nt be too big an advantage.This could be followed by KTM if it decided to enter the series (hopefully! :) ).

Bring on Aprilia, MV Agusta & Benelli.


999 - should already be a history.

[NinjaMaster]

Hey Jaybond. Welcome to the forum. :wave:
I agree with you although the KTM is said to be an 1150cc twin and they are apparently planning on entering WSB in 09 so the WSB organisers will need to keep that in mind. I really hope the Benelli thing comes to fruition. They are backed by a big Korean(?) company now so hopefully they have the resources and the sound of a 1000 V6 would be the ultimate in individuality! :up:

[ArmchairBikeFan]

So long as KTM don't realize their bike's uncompetitive and run away mid-season!
I'm deeply dubious about the Benelli V6. Although, if it's a big enough backing company, they'll surely be able to make enough bikes to homologate. The Malaysians certainly managed it...
Reminds me of a story. I think it was Skoda in the 1960's, homologated a rally car by showing the inspectors 2 cars and saying the other 498 were unavailable because they were being used as police cars.

[ChrisS]

There was also talk that KTM's (hopefully) coming RC8(?) superbike would be a 1200 twin. That would be very tasty. :facelick: It would be nice to see such t-twin rules entice the likes of BMW to the party as well but perhaps I'm dreaming a bit big now. :)

the only bikes that BMW has ATM that can be compared to the Japanese 1000 and Ducati in performance are the K1200 series sportbikes and they are powered by In-line 4 engines.

BTW it would be nice if Aprilia, MV Agusta, Benelli, KTM, BMW etc... all entered racing but realistically it cant be done, you can have 5 maybe 6 manufacturers in a series, anymore wouldn't survive

[jaybond]

Hey Jaybond. Welcome to the forum. :wave:
I agree with you although the KTM is said to be an 1150cc twin and they are apparently planning on entering WSB in 09 so the WSB organisers will need to keep that in mind. I really hope the Benelli thing comes to fruition. They are backed by a big Korean(?) company now so hopefully they have the resources and the sound of a 1000 V6 would be the ultimate in individuality! :up:

Benelli V6?You gotta be kidding :D . Unless they got big bucks.Perhaps, they can still campaigned their triple engined bike.
I think Benelli is backed by a Chinese company.

Can't wait to see how the new Aprilia V4 superbike will look like.Could be this year I guess.

[NinjaMaster]

Apparently Benelli have the 1000cc V6 motor up and running ready for the new Tornado!
http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/Article_Page.aspx?ArticleID=4510&PageID=1
I know I shouldn't get excited because it will likely fall on it's face but I can't help it! The thing going for it is that they finally have some money behind them unlike their previous outing.
I can't see why there can't be more than 6 manufacturers invloved. Aprilia only left to go MotoGP racing (that was a good idea :erm: ) and KTM have good backing behind them and know how to go racing - MotoGP not-withstanding. And if Benelli have the finance to back their effort properly, there is no reason they can't go racing as well. And then there is MV Agusta about to join the fold as well. We could well be heading into a golden ago of superbike racing. Did I mention that I tend to get a bit overexcited at juicy rumours like this? ;)

[jaybond]

I always check out that site, but maybe overlooked the Benelli part.
Well if rumours are true, WSBK maybe heading to its golden age, with unprecedented scale. :D

[ChrisS]

I can't see why there can't be more than 6 manufacturers invloved.

because in any race someone has to finish last and with 7-9 manufacturers involved that someone would be a manufacturer. And no manufacturer will continue racing in a series when they finish last all the time

[The Phantom]

Just in on VFR Discussion (sorry the source is not mentioned, text is the contributors not from the source):

Ducati announces it is quitting World Superbike next year unless they are allowed to run a 1200cc V-Twin, despite the fact their current production superbike is 1098cc and two riders (Bayliss/Xaus) on 'last years' Ducati 999's currently top the timing sheets at this weekends race at Valencia.

What a bunch of prissy little softcocks. Australia kicked their arse in the World Cup and they had to fall over to win the game, looks like their tactics are universal.

Screw you guys, I'm going home! Wahhh!

[ArmchairBikeFan]

I'd let Ducati go.
The last time they got to decide the rules, WSBK turned into a Ducati one-make series. Now that Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha are serious about the championship, and hugely competitive too, it would be ludicrous to bow to Ducati's demands. Play to the rules or get lost.

[patnicholls]

The Ducati thing does seem a contentious one.

A couple of points to consider:

-FGSport don't want to drive any manufacturers out of the series, it's simply not in their interests. If you're a governing body of a sport the last thing you want is to be short of teams. Just ask some of the Champ Car management :p

and

-When the one-tyre rule came through, the Big Four bolted. Without Ducati we wouldn't have a World Superbike Championship now. You can never forget the people who got you where you are - in any walk of life - that's a basic rule.

The counterpoint has been made that the Big Four bolted because they weren't consulted on the one-tyre rule, but that rule didn't appear to hand an advantage to Ducati - far from it in terms of the factory team. From 2003 with utter dominance they went to having to fight out every race with Haga's semi-private Renegade bike and the then-new Fireblade with rookie Vermeulen on it, as well as Frankie's all-private PSG-1 Ducati.

It's been said a lot that Ducati want an advantage through the rules so they can win. Of course they do - and so do the Japanese. The Big Four didn't want the single-tyre rule because they want to run big-money factory teams to starve out the little guys so they can win more easily - something that is directly against the original spirit of what WSB was about as a series based on production machinery. The original intention was to put private teams and small factories on a more even playing field with the big dogs by keeping costs down (check Julian Ryder's book, "World Superbikes - The First 15 Years"). The single-tyre rule fits perfectly with that philosphy. The tricky bit is balancing out cost-saving with showcasing superior performance machinery that takes the series above Superstock level which is where a bit of manufacturer investment comes in.

Someone made the point about the Big Four now being 'serious' about WSB - they've been serious throughout as far as I can see with the exception of 2003/4 - Honda took the first two titles, Kawasaki won in 1993, Yamaha have been there or thereabouts, Suzuki have had factory or Batta-run teams for years. Their attitude now is little different to the one they've always had.

I admit, the 1200cc idea seems a bit much when Ducati's road bike (and Superstock machine) is a 1098, but all this "screw Ducati" talk doesn't wash with me at all, I'm afraid. They need each other - Ducati was a tiny, almost bankrupt factory before WSB came along - and so somehow a solution has to be worked out.

Although, I'm betting FGsport are working on it!

[The Phantom]

I suppose at the end of the day it can only lead to better bikes from the big 4... but I'm still not convinced. How long were the 1000cc Japanese bikes on the market before the rules were changed to accommodate them? The R1 appeared in 1998... how many titles has Ducati taken since then?

They've always run right at the edge of development with the twin, it's a grenade that is perfect for sprint racing (if useless for anything longer), will the 1098 be any different? Surely they will be getting to the point where piston speed is limited by the size of the slugs needed for 1200 cubic centimetres...

Will the move to 1200cc discourage other non-WSB manufacturers from signing on?

Valid point regarding Ducati's unwavering support for the series, but in context - WSB is their main sales mechanism and as you point out they have done fairly well out of it. Do racing fans _need_ to have Ducati running at the front for the foreseable future to enjoy the racing? I'd be ok with no Ducati if MV, Benelli etc. were taking it to the Big 4 - on equal terms.

[NinjaMaster]

because in any race someone has to finish last and with 7-9 manufacturers involved that someone would be a manufacturer. And no manufacturer will continue racing in a series when they finish last all the time

That argument really doesn't wash with me. I know that has been the case with Bimota and Benelli in the past but the main reason for that was financial with both companies going bust. The reason there can be more manufacturers on the grid is the whole "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" principle, as is perfectly demonstrated by Ducati and to a lesser extent, Aprilia. This would be of great inspiration to the smaller manufacturers looking to join. If Benelli (or KTM, Aprilia, MV Agusta, etc.) are going to build sportsbikes, then they will really want them to have cred and the best way to do that is by going racing and winning. None of them will plan to lose. If your theory is correct, look forward to the demise of Kawasaki within the next 3 years... :uhoh:

[ChrisS]

That argument really doesn't wash with me. I know that has been the case with Bimota and Benelli in the past but the main reason for that was financial with both companies going bust. The reason there can be more manufacturers on the grid is the whole "win on Sunday, sell on Monday" principle, as is perfectly demonstrated by Ducati and to a lesser extent, Aprilia. This would be of great inspiration to the smaller manufacturers looking to join. If Benelli (or KTM, Aprilia, MV Agusta, etc.) are going to build sportsbikes, then they will really want them to have cred and the best way to do that is by going racing and winning. None of them will plan to lose. If your theory is correct, look forward to the demise of Kawasaki within the next 3 years... :uhoh:

Of course Benelli KTM, Aprilia, MV Agusta will want to win if they enter WSBK. But they cant all win someone has to finish 2nd, 3rd, 4th ... last. You can’t expect 14-18 bikes all being capable of winning, that isn’t possible in a single manufacturer series, let alone a series with 7-9 different manufactures.

I'm not saying that one of the smaller manufacturers will finish last, maybe it will be Ducati or one of the Japanese though somehow I doubt it

Also about Kawasaki, PSG-1 ATM is at a position to get top 10 finishes, if PSG-1 drops back to the point where they cant score points then yes, they will drop Kawasaki and find a more competitive bike or drop out of WSBK all together, PSG-1 is not a factory team, it may get some help from Kawasaki Europe but they are for the most part a privateer.

[The Phantom]

Have thought about Ducati's position some more, and I still think the same thing - if they want to leave, let them. They can either come back in 2009 if the capacity limit is raised, or they can produce a de-stroked 1098 and race in 2008.

[Mach24]

[quote="patnicholls"]

-When the one-tyre rule came through, the Big Four bolted. Without Ducati we wouldn't have a World Superbike Championship now. You can never forget the people who got you where you are - in any walk of life - that's a basic rule.

And you should never let the people who hold you back do it repeatedly. Sometimes to improve you need to move on.

It would be a shame to lose Ducati, but it would be a bigger shame if they hijacked WSB and we lost everyone else (again).

[Mach24]

[quote="patnicholls"]

-When the one-tyre rule came through, the Big Four bolted. Without Ducati we wouldn't have a World Superbike Championship now. You can never forget the people who got you where you are - in any walk of life - that's a basic rule.

QUOTE]

Sometimes to improve you need to move away from the people that hold you back, even if it appears you need them!

It would be a great shame to lose Ducati but a greater shame to lose the other manufacturers because one manufacturer hijacks a series (again).