Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Barreis]

It's 9 years how they're gone from wrc. last years were disaster for the team but anyway, I miss blue subaru color ;)

[sonnybobiche]

Great new edition of The Autosport Podcast with JML and David Evans.

https://soundcloud.com/autosport/jari-matti-latvala-how-to-win-rally-gb

[AnttiL]

It's friday afternoon. I wish I had a beer. So does Juho.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNJLSAAX4AIJm8p.jpg

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DNKw8zMX0AEVNYz.jpg:large

90's boy band M-Boyz doing a ballad with the quiet boy Elfyn getting to do a lead vocal for a change

[KiwiWRCfan]

After SS11 seasons stage wins by team.
MSport 71
Hyundai 71

[jparker]

After SS11 seasons stage wins by team.
MSport 71
Hyundai 71

Very interesting, but only for people that can analyze properly.

[AnttiL]

Mikkelsen has now scored WRC points with 4 factory teams (VW, Skoda, Citroen, Hyundai) within 12 months. A record? Probably the guys in the 70's drove for many brands during a year...

[tolx]

Not to make separate thread, will ask here.
Looking now forward to visit at least one 2018 WRC event and seriously considering portugal.
Was here on vacation in october and really enjoyed the country, so why not to try and visit it again?
Veeery distant plan - arrive on Wednesday in Porto, get a rental car, drive down to Braga (or somewhere near, where hotel is booked), maybe recee some points I want to spectate,
watch as much rally as possible for 3 days and fly back on sunday afternoon. Or in worst case, monday morning.
What should I consider and take into account for rally spectating and accomodation?
I have some expectations about living and accomodation costs, also rental cars and fuel prices.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Looking now forward to visit at least one 2018 WRC event and seriously considering portugal.
Was here on vacation in october and really enjoyed the country, so why not to try and visit it again?

A Kiwi friend who went to Argentina, Sardegna & Portugal this year is raving about Portugal it is his pick of best spectating out of those 3 events

[racerx1979]

Has your friend been to Finland? Would think that would be the best spectating / atmosphere...

[KiwiWRCfan]

not yet, but they hope to get to Finland in next few years.

[Rally Power]

Not to make separate thread, will ask here.
Looking now forward to visit at least one 2018 WRC event and seriously considering portugal.
Was here on vacation in october and really enjoyed the country, so why not to try and visit it again?
Veeery distant plan - arrive on Wednesday in Porto, get a rental car, drive down to Braga (or somewhere near, where hotel is booked), maybe recee some points I want to spectate,
watch as much rally as possible for 3 days and fly back on sunday afternoon. Or in worst case, monday morning.
What should I consider and take into account for rally spectating and accomodation?
I have some expectations about living and accomodation costs, also rental cars and fuel prices.

Great choice tolx! Rally de Portugal is a fantastic event, besides it’s free to see and the living cost here is quite low (fuel is the exception) compared to North of Europe countries. There aren’t yet indications of ’18 RdP route, but probably it’ll take some of previous editions stages. You can get some info from last year’s initial pages topics:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?37135-Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2017-May-18-21
http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?36053-Rally-Portugal-2016

[Rally Power]

Once we’re talking about spectating WRC events, the promoter estimations till Catalunya indicated Portugal and Argentina at the top, with 950.000 spectators each! Portugal and Argentina together gathered as many spectators as all the other 8 events (Finland included). Quite impressive! Btw, Portugal population is 10M, Argentina 44M.

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/october-2017/wrc-spectators/page/4942--12-12-.html

http://www.rallydeportugal.pt/ResourcesUser/Imagens/Noticias/2017/publico-wrc.jpg
photo: rallydeportugal.pt

[tolx]

Great choice tolx! Rally de Portugal is a fantastic event, besides it’s free to see and the living cost here is quite low (fuel is the exception) compared to North of Europe countries. There aren’t yet indications of ’18 RdP route, but probably it’ll take some of previous editions stages. You can get some info from last year’s initial pages topics:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?37135-Vodafone-Rally-de-Portugal-2017-May-18-21
http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?36053-Rally-Portugal-2016

I will go through those threads once again for sure. But realistically, how many stages could be seen per day? And what about nightstay location?
Would like to book that as soon as possible.

[tommeke_B]

Once we’re talking about spectating WRC events, the promoter estimations till Catalunya indicated Portugal and Argentina at the top, with 950.000 spectators each! Portugal and Argentina together gathered as many spectators as all the other 8 events (Finland included). Quite impressive! Btw, Portugal population is 10M, Argentina 44M.

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/news/october-2017/wrc-spectators/page/4942--12-12-.html

http://www.rallydeportugal.pt/ResourcesUser/Imagens/Noticias/2017/publico-wrc.jpg
photo: rallydeportugal.pt

Shame we don't see the figures for all events separately. Also don't forget that number is usually all days combined, so someone who visits all 4 days could be counted 4 times.

[Franky]

How do they count spectators on free to attend events? With other events you can use the statistics of sold tickets and rally passes, but free events ... impossible.

[Jinu13]

I'm hoping to do Portugal next year, though I keep meeting Finnish people who tell me their rally is the best. Perhaps some kind of cosmic hint? My wallet may well decide the outcome though :)

[N.O.T]

How do they count spectators on free to attend events?

by lying...

[tommeke_B]

I'm hoping to do Portugal next year, though I keep meeting Finnish people who tell me their rally is the best. Perhaps some kind of cosmic hint? My wallet may well decide the outcome though :)

The Finns aren't lying... ;) I haven't been in Portugal since it moved North, but I'm sure no other event in Europe will beat Finland in terms of spectacle.

[Franky]

by lying...

Or let's put it more politely, guessing. But you as the almighty god must know how many souls there were on the Portuguese rally stages. Can you give us the exact number? :D

[Rally Power]

How do they count spectators on free to attend events? With other events you can use the statistics of sold tickets and rally passes, but free events ... impossible.

In Portugal, Argentina, Mexico, France, Spain, Italy and in all other countries where you can spectate for free, crowd numbers aren’t made up, they’re calculated by police forces or civil protection authorities, as those are trained to do it. For sure they aren’t exact figures, like the ones of a ticket selling (btw, in that case fraud can also exist), but they’re still a pretty fair indication.

At Rally de Portugal case, the crowd enthusiasm has become its main asset. The move to the North was asked by Todt and Mouton, despite some safety risks. Portuguese public has managed to respond in a fantastic way and we can now proudly say that besides having the biggest crowds we also have impeccable spectator’s behavior. Many other countries can hardly say the same.

[Rally Power]

I will go through those threads once again for sure. But realistically, how many stages could be seen per day? And what about nightstay location?
Would like to book that as soon as possible.

Portugal has the traditional 3stagesx2passes format. Without a motorbike it gets complicated trying to see stage 1 and 3 from each loop, as access roads are packed and you’ll have to spend a long time walking. In the current format you can realistically see 2 stages per day, plus Thursday SS (Lousada), Friday street stage and Thusrday morning fantastic Shakedown (Baltar).

Still, as ’18 route isn’t yet known, we can hope for a change into a 4x2 layout and Porto street stage return. For accommodation, Braga is a good option and so it’s Guimarães (world heritage town), a bit closer to Fafe stages and to Porto/Matosinhos headquarters.

[Lousada]

In Portugal, Argentina, Mexico, France, Spain, Italy and in all other countries where you can spectate for free, crowd numbers aren’t made up, they’re calculated by police forces or civil protection authorities, as those are trained to do it. For sure they aren’t exact figures, like the ones of a ticket selling (btw, in that case fraud can also exist), but they’re still a pretty fair indication.



Yes but do they use the numbers provided by the authorities or the numbers provided by the organisers? Considering the source I think it is the organisers number. And then you need to know how are these numbers calculated? Stage by Stage, or Day by Day or the the whole weekend together?

[giu canbera]

Ken Block's Hoonigan Team raced Rhys Millen and Sara Price in Two Fiat Abarth at some Hillclimb in Mexico these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohY7Sn4qmlY

Imagine that Abarth in WRC * ___ * haha

[Norm75]

Ken Block's Hoonigan Team raced Rhys Millen and Sara Price in Two Fiat Abarth at some Hillclimb in Mexico these days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohY7Sn4qmlY

Imagine that Abarth in WRC * ___ * haha
They already are in r-GT class

[ESTR]

They already are in r-GT class

That class could be more alive.. Then you only see sometime Porsche and that's it. And these guys at Fiat talks with big mouth how they would compete and show only on one event... And even there almost all crash... Alpine bring that beast into the game. Toyota too.

[giu canbera]

They already are in r-GT class

I said WRC, not r-GT.
Power, Aero, Wings, Sponsors....

[Norm75]

I said WRC, not r-GT.
Power, Aero, Wings, Sponsors....

WRC = World Rally Championship, r-GT is a class in the WRC, but get your point.

[AnttiL]

What class are Toyota Yaris WRC and Ford Fiesta WRC then if not WRC?

[Norm75]

WRC class cars in WRC :)

[OldF]

WRC is also World Rally Car.

[OldF]

Nice new feature on Rally-Maps.com, related stages.

https://twitter.com/RallyMaps/status/932325727718035457

[pantealex]

what class are toyota yaris wrc and ford fiesta wrc then if not wrc?

rc1 ;)

[AnttiL]

Nice new feature on Rally-Maps.com, related stages.

https://twitter.com/RallyMaps/status/932325727718035457

Was actually my suggestion to add that feature :)

If anyone else is interested in special stages and rally maps, I recently started a blog about them. Of course, it will have a heavy weigh on Rally Finland but I'm going to cover all the current rallies and analyze their routes before the starts.

My latest entry is about the mighty Ouninpohja https://itgetsfasternow.wordpress.com/2017/11/24/ouninpohja-pt-1-the-legends/

[Rally Power]

If anyone else is interested in special stages and rally maps, I recently started a blog about them. Of course, it will have a heavy weigh on Rally Finland but I'm going to cover all the current rallies and analyze their routes before the starts.
My latest entry is about the mighty Ouninpohja https://itgetsfasternow.wordpress.com/2017/11/24/ouninpohja-pt-1-the-legends/

Nice blog AnttiL! Hope to see you writing about Fafe stage one of these days ;)

[AnttiL]

Nice blog AnttiL! Hope to see you writing about Fafe stage one of these days ;)

Thanks! For sure Fafe is one of the iconic stages of WRC. I remember the tarmac junction and the jump all the way back from the 90's as a kid and back then we didn't have youtube or WRC+, we could only see some minutes of a foreign WRC event on TV if we were lucky.

[raybak]

Most of you on here know me as rally codriver but I do a few other things. Here is the trailer to a movie that I did the stunt driving for. Movie is currently on release here in Australia and on the West coast of the USA. https://vimeo.com/241825673

Ray

[raybak]

Here's a longer version of the trailer. https://vimeo.com/235226019

[giu canbera]

Would you be OK if the electric RX cars (planned for 2020) are so good and so adaptable that they could ALSO become WRC's top class? I mean... you'd have to change some suspensions kits and set-ups... But "thats it".
The power would be there already. Manufacturers are kinda interested in the e-RX class (Bmw, Audi, VW, Peugeot...)
I wouldnt mind having WRX teams racing WRC and "vice-versa", since it'd be "the same car" (or something reaaaally close)
I dont know if the current RX/WRC are that compatible to race the other series, but with electric cars it looks pretty simple

Same was said about MotoCross and Supermoto. You change the tires and thats it (Not LITERALLY, I know.. but its way simple to do it, according to Alta Motors and KTM)

I was kinda fearing that WRC would have to revert to R5 cars as its top class cuz of the budgets and this economic crisis on the horizon (kinda like WTCC is doing right now with TCR cars.. that could be raced in EVERY TCR series on the planet) but I would enjoy seeing Electric Cars racing RX and WRC... IDK why but I like the idea.

I even saw someone suggesting they should MERGE and have Stages on Friday and Sunday, with RX on Saturday. That'd be one way to make WRC have "more promo" and WRX to have more respect among traditional racing fans...

Or whatever... Just talking cuz Im bored! Cheers

[Alex009]

Would you be OK if the electric RX cars (planned for 2020) are so good and so adaptable that they could ALSO become WRC's top class? I mean... you'd have to change some suspensions kits and set-ups... But "thats it".


No. Never. It's not motorsport anymore. Electric cars are ridicolous idea and hopefully have nothing to do with WRC.

[sonnybobiche]

It just takes a tiiiiny bit of knowledge of physics and chemistry (understanding the difference in energy density between petrol and any practical or theoretical or yet-to-be-conceived-of battery technology) to realize that electric cars are an absurdly stupid idea forced on the public by bureaucrats and politicians who don't know anything except how to manipulate people.

There is no battery technology coming that will compete with a liquid hydrocarbon like petrol, because it is not physically possible in our universe to have a higher energy density than a liquid hydrocarbon, unless you're talking about putting miniature nuclear reactors in everyone's car.

Everyone who has ever promised you that that revolutionary battery technology is around the corner is either clueless or lying.

[electroliquid]

It's hard to imagine, that WRC could be left only ones with petrol engines when everyone else go electric. Batteries may not be problem, they could replace them in refueling zones, but I think it would be hard enough to create electric car to suit various surfaces, average speeds, etc. Formula E doing OK, but conditions there are pretty much same in all circuits.

[Mirek]

Rally is not held on closed circuits with specially trained marshals and no access for spectators, i.e. there must be a safety concern.

And frankly if WRC stays with combustion engines I would be only happy.

[ESTR]

As long as they could make a great sound even with electric power it doesn't matter, it will be fast and exciting. (and not that squeking like old twingo inside the cabin)

[electroliquid]

Yeah, it would be very hard to create safe and spectacular electric rally cars, while electric motors are very powerful, create gears, who reduce torque means no good on gravel, reduce top speed - always on "rev limiter", and etc.
Rally should be with cars with combustion engines, but it's more political thing about green energy and whatever. I'd be ok with R5-ish rally cars as top category in case of green peace activist campaign against WRC rally cars, as long as it be internal combustion.

[PLuto]

It's hard to imagine, that WRC could be left only ones with petrol engines when everyone else go electric.

I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

[electroliquid]

As long as they could make a great sound even with electric power it doesn't matter, it will be fast and exciting. (and not that squeking like old twingo inside the cabin)

I don't completely understand all complaining about sound - yes it's important; but formula 1 become boring not due to V6 turbo sound...
Rally, as all other motorsport, should be safe, then should be affordable for manufacturers to compete, and interesting to spectate or even to be interested in it. If they build monster electric cars with 2000Nm engines and add special sound effects, it not work as great thing...But if rally don't evolve, it will die, now it's not in best shape and this continues long time..

[electroliquid]

I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

I hope not, but there is Formula E, talks about WRX electric, so step by step..

[Franky]

I don't completely understand all complaining about sound - yes it's important; but formula 1 become boring not due to V6 turbo sound...

Now imagine a trolley bus sound instead of that turbo charged V6 hybrid powerunit sound. Sound plays a very big role how people perceive "speed" and "power". There is a video of an electric rally cross car on the web somewhere. Watch it and then come back with the sound topic.

[electroliquid]

Now imagine a trolley bus sound instead of that turbo charged V6 hybrid powerunit sound. Sound plays a very big role how people perceive "speed" and "power". There is a video of an electric rally cross car on the web somewhere. Watch it and then come back with the sound topic.

As I said sound is important, but it's not main thing - there is safety issues, engineering challenges to create car suited for rally. Sound is not MAIN factor about yes/no to electric rally cars. But add fake sound is not solution; so maybe hybrid is?..

[mknight]

I don't consider myself an electric car proponent by any means and drive a diesel right now, but I find this discussion extremely funny to the point of falling off my chair.

Sure electric cars have their disadvantages, but they also have advantages. Some of these "facts" against electric cars here are downright hilarious.

Just from a quick scroll:



It just takes a tiiiiny bit of knowledge of physics and chemistry (understanding the difference in energy density between petrol and any practical or theoretical or yet-to-be-conceived-of battery technology) to realize that electric cars are an absurdly stupid idea forced on the public by bureaucrats and politicians who don't know anything except how to manipulate people.

There is no battery technology coming that will compete with a liquid hydrocarbon like petrol, because it is not physically possible in our universe to have a higher energy density than a liquid hydrocarbon, unless you're talking about putting miniature nuclear reactors in everyone's car.


Energy density is totally the only thing that matters when it comes to energy sources.... ohh wait.



Yeah, it would be very hard to create safe and spectacular electric rally cars, while electric motors are very powerful, create gears, who reduce torque means no good on gravel, reduce top speed - always on "rev limiter", and etc.

Gears - what? You can do with just 1 fixed gear without changes, like just about all electric vehicles do.
No good on gravel - Uhh, either electronically or manually (so-called throttle pedal) you just control the amount of torque put to the wheels. Throttle response in electronic system could be just about anything (exponential for example). It's not like current electric cars just spin in one spot on ice continously today you know ;)
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1WAOLh2rE )

Top/speed rev-limiter - What are you talking about again, WRC cars today have ~ 200 kph top speed, electric cars have that or higher as well.

-----------------

Only argument that has some validity out of those shown here is danger of battery fire. Then again petrol in combination with hot engine parts/exhaust/brakes is not exactly fireproof either. Some group B cars surely are a proof of that. In a competition car the battery could be in the middle of the car protected by the rollcage + some hard foam or similar against other impacts.

--------------------------------------------------

I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

This is true right now. In the future there are two very real possibilities that require no revolutionary invention:

1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes
2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annually, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.

[electroliquid]

Gears - what? You can do with just 1 fixed gear without changes, like just about all electric vehicles do. No good on gravel - Uhh, either electronically or manually (so-called throttle pedal) you just control the amount of torque put to the wheels. Throttle response in electronic system could be just about anything (exponential for example). It's not like current electric cars just spin in one spot on ice continously today you know ;)
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip1WAOLh2rE )

I mean fixed gear variations for motorsport like final gears using now; I'm sure electric car can do over 200kmh, but it's not needed for safety reasons;

[sonnybobiche]

1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes
2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annual, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.

Yep, that's all these people ever resort to doing, is taxing and subsidizing to try to alter people's preferences, because this is technology that nobody actually wants or needs. And when that doesn't work, they ban it outright.

I don't see what I said to make you fall out of your chair with laughter, because you didn't make a single cogent response to my point. Energy density matters quite a lot, since people like to be able to, you know, drive their cars for more than a hundred miles or so without having to stop and recharge for an hour. Fast recharge you say? I imagine most people aren't too keen on it when they find out that it destroys their battery and that they'll need to scrap it and buy a new one in two years.

Or maybe you're trying to suggest that the world will run out of petrol soon? They've been saying uninformed or dishonest nonsense like that since the 70s. It's a bunch of Malthusian idiocy. There's enough oil in just the tar sands of Canada to fuel the world for the next 500 years.

Or maybe you're trying to suggest that burning petrol is dirty? Modern cars with catalytic converters are extremely, extremely clean except for a few minutes after a cold start.

Or maybe you're concerned about CO2? Unless you live in a country like France where the eco-fascists didn't destroy the Nuclear industry, most of your electricity is coming from burning coal or oil or natural gas, because as I said, it has a ridiculously high energy density.

I don't see anything funny in the green energy scam being forced down people's throats by a bunch of stupid, corrupt bureaucrats.

They've already ruined plenty. I'd rather not see them ruin my favorite sport.

[mknight]

I don't see what I said to make you fall out of your chair with laughter, because you didn't make a single cogent response to my point. Energy density matters quite a lot, since people like to be able to, you know, drive their cars for more than a hundred miles or so without having to stop and recharge for an hour. Fast recharge you say? I imagine most people aren't too keen on it when they find out that it destroys their battery and that they'll need to scrap it and buy a new one in two years.


Two days ago I drove a 3 year old Tesla who's owner used supercharger just about every week and now still does over 400km no problem. Must have been dreaming.

For a bit less easy argument, "energy density" also matters for whole powertrain, in petrol car you have engine, fuel tank, exhaust, engine cooling etc. In electric you can save a lot of space by omitting a few pieces, but it will add some weight. In any case energy density of fuel is certainly not the one and only factor.
To use your own point, it's not that U238 is the preferred fuel in cars....

The way you put forward your other arguments just shows how pointless it's to talk with you. For your own sake I surely hope you don't breath the EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY clean exhaust of modern cars all day.

[giu canbera]

"I dont like electric cars so thats why they are shit and are never going to be usefull. I think electric car racing is shit, so thats why nobody wants electric car racing. And manufacturers are gonna put my opinions above their intentions of profits"

[sonnybobiche]

Two days ago I drove a 3 year old Tesla who's owner used supercharger just about every week and now still does over 400km no problem. Must have been dreaming.


Probably because the supercharger wasn't actually supercharging anymore, because the battery was partially damaged already.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/

Mind you, taking over an hour to recharge isn't anyone's idea of 'fast' to begin with.

Energy density is the only significant factor as far as range between refueling/recharging is concerned. Electric drivetrains could not compete with the internal combustion engine even if they were 100% efficient. The energy just isn't there, unless you make the whole car into a giant battery. But my understanding is that lithium ion batteries don't actually make for very good seat cushions or airbags.

I do breathe the exhaust of modern cars all day, because I live in New York. It's as clean as the exhaust coming out of my lungs--just CO2 and water vapor.

The reason you think it's pointless to talk to me is because you see that I actually know what I'm talking about and we fundamentally disagree. I'm sure you're used to people being less informed and more sympathetic to the green agenda, but you won't get that from me.

I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so.


"I dont like electric cars so thats why they are shit and are never going to be usefull. I think electric car racing is shit, so thats why nobody wants electric car racing. And manufacturers are gonna put my opinions above their intentions of profits"

No, I don't like electric cars BECAUSE they are shit and they are never going to be "usefull". I think electric car racing is shit, because it is objectively shit, and that's why nobody watches Formula E. And manufacturers don't so much care about my opinion because the governments are forcing their hand and providing big subsidies to make these shitty cars. And still, hybrids are, what, 2% of vehicles on the road? Electrics? Not even 1%. People do not want this.

[GravelBen]

2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries)

It isn't clear whether batteries will actually get cheaper - for electric cars to get anywhere near their sales targets would need a huge increase in global battery production, supply isn't just dependent on building bigger factories but also on mining the raw materials (I've read that 85% of battery cost is materials). If that supply of materials struggles to keep up with demand (or mining gets more expensive due to environmental standards etc) then battery prices will go up, not down.

[AnttiL]

I think rallying will go electric when it becomes the main interest of manufacturers, or rather when they don't want to promote their combustion engines anymore. Of course it shouldn't be an overnight switch, we should have soon a side class for electric cars to see how they work and develop it further.

I don't have a strong opinion, but having test driven a Tesla a number of times, I'm a believer. They are fast. And you can make it drift.

[mknight]

It isn't clear whether batteries will actually get cheaper - for electric cars to get anywhere near their sales targets would need a huge increase in global battery production, supply isn't just dependent on building bigger factories but also on mining the raw materials (I've read that 85% of battery cost is materials). If that supply of materials struggles to keep up with demand (or mining gets more expensive due to environmental standards etc) then battery prices will go up, not down.

Yes it's possible, that's why I listed it as a possibility.

[Mirek]

I am not sure if everyone will go electric, only in case some big revolutionary invention. Actual electric cars cannot survive without big financial support from government.

Currently the electric cars are a big bubble because the infrastructure is nowhere close to what is needed for large scale use of them. Actually when I read every day bullshit like charging a 1200kWh truck battery in half an hour... of course You can if you have a power supply of 800+ kW... (and Your batteries won't last long if you always charge them like that).

[Mirek]

I don't completely understand all complaining about sound - yes it's important; but formula 1 become boring not due to V6 turbo sound...
Rally, as all other motorsport, should be safe, then should be affordable for manufacturers to compete, and interesting to spectate or even to be interested in it. If they build monster electric cars with 2000Nm engines and add special sound effects, it not work as great thing...But if rally don't evolve, it will die, now it's not in best shape and this continues long time..

Sir, have You ever watched elecric race live? I am sorry but without sound IT IS boring as hell. Moreover in rallying sound is part of the safety package. It warns spectators that something is coming. No such issue on closed circuits.

[mknight]

Probably because the supercharger wasn't actually supercharging anymore, because the battery was partially damaged already.

https://electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/

Mind you, taking over an hour to recharge isn't anyone's idea of 'fast' to begin with.

Energy density is the only significant factor as far as range between refueling/recharging is concerned. Electric drivetrains could not compete with the internal combustion engine even if they were 100% efficient. The energy just isn't there, unless you make the whole car into a giant battery. But my understanding is that lithium ion batteries don't actually make for very good seat cushions or airbags.

I do breathe the exhaust of modern cars all day, because I live in New York. It's as clean as the exhaust coming out of my lungs--just CO2 and water vapor.

The reason you think it's pointless to talk to me is because you see that I actually know what I'm talking about and we fundamentally disagree. I'm sure you're used to people being less informed and more sympathetic to the green agenda, but you won't get that from me.

I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so.



No, I don't like electric cars BECAUSE they are shit and they are never going to be "usefull". I think electric car racing is shit, because it is objectively shit, and that's why nobody watches Formula E. And manufacturers don't so much care about my opinion because the governments are forcing their hand and providing big subsidies to make these shitty cars. And still, hybrids are, what, 2% of vehicles on the road? Electrics? Not even 1%. People do not want this.


1. I actually read the quote article.
a) The owner who got slower supercharger charging has recharged using different fast-charging stations in total 300 times! If it was once per week it would amount to 6 years....
b) It says he got the charging power reduced by 25%, sure that is noticable but it would mean using say 40 mins instead of 30 for 90% capacity, not quite slow charging

2. Only important thing for a car is range? You seem to think so

3. Sure you live in New York on ground floor 30 feet of a busy road.. If you do and enjoy it... well that's your choice.

4. The reason it's pointless to talk to you is that you only see one side of the coin "because it's shit". Actually I'm rather neutral on electric cars vs petrol cars, in a sense that I think both have their uses. What I don't like is retarded arguments from each side. Since there are no retarded pro-electric arguments here, you are the one to laugh at.

5. "I think 'green energy' and eco-shitboxes are a scam sold by evil people and forced on us by unelected bureaucrats, and I'm pretty tired of people telling me I'm stupid and laughing at me for thinking so."
SAD! ;)

Also you forgot climate change is a conspiracy made up by China.

6. "People" want what is cheaper. If petrol cars are cheaper they buy those. If electric/hybrids are cheaper (due to taxes in some countries), then they buy those instead.

[Mirek]

1. Petrol cars get slowly banned or get higher taxes

That's likely impossible for a few decades to come for simple reason. The recharging infrastructure is nowehere close to anything necessary for large scale use of such cars. It's possible for city use especially in city centers where there is traffic regulation in place already but highway long range traffic with electric cars is nothing but sci-fi for at least several more decades.


2. Electric cars get cheaper due to mass-production (mostly of batteries), an interesting analogy is that a smartphone would cost some 20k USD if only 100k were sold annually, but with 1,5 billion sold the price is quite different.

There are all sorts of advantages given to electric cars by governments already in place (huge taxes on fuel, every harder emission standards, tax-incentives for electric cars, Tesla producing cars with huge financial loss covered by subsidies of the tax payers etc.). I believe there is for sure a good chance to electrify large cities (that alone would be very good for living conditions in them) but there is no form of support which could make them ready for mass long-distance traveling in the close future.

[mknight]

Currently the electric cars are a big bubble because the infrastructure is nowhere close to what is needed for large scale use of them. Actually when I read every day bullshit like charging a 1200kWh truck battery in half an hour... of course You can if you have a power supply of 800+ kW... (and Your batteries won't last long if you always charge them like that).

That is true, currently in most countries there are not enough chargers. In some countries there are however already quite a lot of chargers.

Will there be enough for all cars to be electric, hard to say, but it is technically possible.

Since I mentioned smartphones earlier I have another example from that industry. In the begging on 1992 lots of technical people didn't believe this "cellphones" will ever be used on large scale cause you would need a LOT of basestations. They though satphones would be the future ... didn't quite work out that way.

@above
As also written here I mostly agree, the biggest difference is probably the timescale. I'd say even highway traffic is possible in as little as 10-20 years if there is enough pressure from 1. and 2. towards it.

Personally if I could choose, I'd choose petrol cars for longer distance and introduce some self-driving shared electric pods for individual ( <6) driving in cities.

[Mirek]

That is true, currently in most countries there are not enough chargers. In some countries there are however already quite a lot of chargers.

Quite a lot is very relative term. Except Norway there is no country in the world where electric cars would account for more than a single digit percentage of all cars. in US it's less than 1% and in in most of Europe it's not any better. That means that the infrastrcture is indeed nowhere near anything useful for large scale use of them. Such infrastructure is also hugely difficult to build - not only for financial but also for simple space reasons. If tomorrow all cars on the streets would become electric the capacity of recharging stations in terms of vehicles being recharged in the same time would have to be multiplied by let's say 30x times over petrol stations because of the time needed for recharging (even if we consider unlimited electric grid and super fast chargers everywhere).

[sonnybobiche]

1. I actually read the quote article.
a) The owner who got slower supercharger charging has recharged using different fast-charging stations in total 300 times! If it was once per week it would amount to 6 years....
b) It says he got the charging power reduced by 25%, sure that is noticable but it would mean using say 40 mins instead of 30 for 90% capacity, not quite slow charging


I'd like to meet somebody who drives a significant distance to work and back every day in their Tesla who charges it once a week. For any normal use case as a daily driver it would be twice a week at a minimum. Sure, you can charge it at home overnight and do less damage to the battery, if you pay to install the special charger at home, and pay for the electricity to charge the thing.

As far as charging speed, it actually takes a little under an hour to get to 90% with a SuperCharger, so now it would take the guy another 15 minutes on top of that. And that's just the degradation so far. An hour and 15 minute pitstop to get another 200 miles of range... not for me.

I'm not saying range is the only important thing for a car to have, but it's a bit of a dealbreaker when you look at electric as a genuine alternative. If that's a retarded argument to you, you must be a goddamn genius and you're seeing something that is truly beyond my comprehension.

I'll say nothing more on the issue, or on global warming, since we have lots of Europeans on this board and I know it's a pet cause of theirs. Wouldn't want to offend anybody!

[mknight]

Quite a lot is very relative term. Except Norway there is no country in the world where electric cars would account for more than a single digit percentage of all cars. in US it's less than 1% and in in most of Europe it's not any better. That means that the infrastrcture is indeed nowhere near anything useful for large scale use of them. Such infrastructure is also hugely difficult to build - not only for financial but also for simple space reasons. If tomorrow all cars on the streets would become electric the capacity of recharging stations in terms of vehicles being recharged in the same time would have to be multiplied by let's say 30x times over petrol stations because of the time needed for recharging (even if we consider unlimited electric grid and super fast chargers everywhere).

Obviously it can't happen overnight, but gradual introduction is totally possible as shown in Norway.




I'd like to meet somebody who drives a significant distance to work and back every day in their Tesla who charges it once a week. For any normal use case as a daily driver it would be twice a week at a minimum. Sure, you can charge it at home overnight and do less damage to the battery, if you pay to install the special charger at home, and pay for the electricity to charge the thing.

As far as charging speed, it actually takes a little under an hour to get to 90% with a SuperCharger, so now it would take the guy another 15 minutes on top of that. And that's just the degradation so far. An hour and 15 minute pitstop to get another 200 miles of range... not for me.


Also in response to Mirek and the infrastructure topic over 50% of charging is and likely will be done at home.. and then some 30% at work. Overnight you can charge just about whole battery with "slower" chargers (depends on the type).

Street-charging for those without a closed parking spot/garage is also fixable with different solutions for identifying the connected car as well as payment.

In quite a lot of european countries the electricity is much (50%+) cheaper than buying petrol.

I don't see why you are bringing the guy that fast-charged 300 times back again, that is indeed highly unusual. Or turning it around, you can off course say that it points to the limits of battery-based vehicles. In the same way a petrol car driving 2 km commute every morning and evening in cold weather wouldn't work quite right after even 50k driven only that way.




I'm not saying range is the only important thing for a car to have, but it's a bit of a dealbreaker when you look at electric as a genuine alternative. If that's a retarded argument to you, you must be a goddamn genius and you're seeing something that is truly beyond my comprehension.


For me I drive over 400km/day nonstop about 3-4 days a year. Typical weekend trips would be 200-300 km one way, then the same back 2 days later. For that use an electric car with 500km range is a real alternative based on range only. Yes it adds some issues for those 3-4 days but rest is ok. (given infrastructure)

There are off course people do much more long-range driving... but also those who do much less.

[Rallyper]

Also in Sweden everyone (even the power/electrical companies) believe you should be able to charge electrical cars everywhere and at every time 24/7. Of course that´s bulls**t.
Think of a Nordic january night -15 degrees and no wind. All generated electricity goes for warming up homes and lighten up cities. No power for your car in the morning. And we also decrease our numbers of Nuclear Power Plants. From 2019 only six remains, from 12 in the beginning.

[Franky]

And when talking about the "green" aspect of EVs, then we can't forget that producing batteries is not even remotely environment friendly.

But I just got a far more important question. Is there even enough raw materials to produce enough batteries to even have a chance of replacing all the internal combustion engines (ICE) and then still have enough resources left to keep making new ones for new vehicles and replacements for old ones?

[Rally Power]

There’s even a bigger issue with EVs: they can reduce transportation sector emissions but eventually they won’t help to reduce global emissions, as electricity production will still be mainly based on fossil fuels - despite all the investment in renewable sources. That’s what politics and green lobbyists have been hidden: to put more EVs on the road will mean burning more coal and gas!

In that sense, I’ve to agree with sonnybobiche: it’s a scam and China will mostly profit from it! China has been investing billions in their manus EVs programs, besides buying tech companies all around the world. They’re already leading the technology and this time they won’t share their market with occidental manus; actually, they’ll be able to take our brands global leadership in years to come.

On a brighter note, EVs won’t probably be taken by major motorsport series on a near future. It’s too expensive to make them serious alternatives to F1 or WRC cars (WEC state of the art hybrids fiasco is a good example). Only second level series, like FE or WRX, can profit from EVs current public excitement; still, if feasible, it’d be smart to use some mild hybrid system on WRC cars and develop a greener image of the sport.

[AnttiL]

There’s even a bigger issue with EVs: they can reduce transportation sector emissions but eventually they won’t help to reduce global emissions, as electricity production will still be mainly based on fossil fuels - despite all the investment in renewable sources. That’s what politics and green lobbyists have been hidden: to put more EVs on the road will mean burning more coal and gas!.

I don't understand this. Doesn't any bit of using renewables for EV energy reduce burning of coal/gas? Even if it's just 10%, it's still 10% less.

Also, EV's are more power efficient, so driving 100 km on EV takes less energy than 100 km on a petrol car.

[Mirek]

In terms of emissions the EV are definitely better than any combustion cars. Creating the pollution only in several easy to control sources (power plant) and some renewable ones is way better than delivering it directly in the city streets by devices (cars) with questionable technical state of their catalysts/particle filters/AD blue injectors which moreover most of the time spend standing in traffic jams or on the traffic lights. Moreover large part of such drives is made with cold engines, i.e. absolutely not in ideal conditions (especially diesel cars in the cities).

The problem is the feasibility of the electrification. It works best with electric trains, trams or trolleybuses but using trolleys is impossible for common traffic where everyone goes where he wants, when he wants and how he wants.

[Rally Power]

I don't understand this. Doesn't any bit of using renewables for EV energy reduce burning of coal/gas? Even if it's just 10%, it's still 10% less.

We’re supposed to believe in it, but if you check the main energy agencies info you’ll notice that in the last decades only in Europe it was possible to reduce fossil fuels electricity production share. In the US, with the fracking boom, natural gas has risen as main source, alongside coal and China, despite the huge investments on hydro, still mainly depends on coal. In the rest of the world situation is the same: the growing electricity demand has been answered through burning fossil fuels, not by the use of cleaner energies. To get lots of cheap and clean electricity, the only viable alternative would be getting back to nuclear energy (still a low emissions source), but this one has been also condemned by public opinion.

Take a look: http://stateofinnovation.com/coal-and-natural-gas-for-electricity-generation-going-the-way-of-the-dinosaur
https://gailtheactuary.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/world-electricity-generation-by-source-through-2015.png



In terms of emissions the EV are definitely better than any combustion cars. Creating the pollution only in several easy to control sources (power plant) and some renewable ones is way better than delivering it directly in the city streets by devices (cars) with questionable technical state of their catalysts/particle filters/AD blue injectors which moreover most of the time spend standing in traffic jams or on the traffic lights. Moreover large part of such drives is made with cold engines, i.e. absolutely not in ideal conditions (especially diesel cars in the cities). The problem is the feasibility of the electrification. It works best with electric trains, trams or trolleybuses but using trolleys is impossible for common traffic where everyone goes where he wants, when he wants and how he wants.

You're missing the point. For sure EVs will be less polluting, but because electricity production is still, and will be for a long time, based in coal and natural gas (despite the propaganda about renewable sources), Co2 emissions saved by taking ICE veichules from the road wouldn't compensate the global Co2 emissions generated by increasing electricity production. It's not even the grid problems that makes one believe EVs aren’t the wonderful solution sold to everyone; it’s the overall concept of not achieving lower global Co2 emissions, as desired.

https://www.siemens.com/innovation/en/home/publications/energy-and-efficiency/sustainable-power-generation-facts-and-forecasts/_jcr_content/par1/image.adapt.596.high.jpg/1411247082461.jpg

[Mirek]

You operate with the premise that burning coal or natural gas produces same emissions as burning diesel or petrol in the vehicle engines. That's not true. Especially natural gas is very good source in terms of CO2 emissions (and near perfect source in terms of other unwanted emissions like NOx, SOx or solid particles which are other very problematic substances produced by vehicles). Even black coal is better in terms of CO2 emissions per energy unit than petrol or diesel.

In fact CNG in terms of emissions is very clean source of energy. The emissions of CO2 are roughly 50% per same energy, emissions of SOx near non existent, emissions of solid particles non existent at all, emissions of NOx are roughly 20-30%.

Another good thing about CNG is that it can be used by vehicles directly without any major issues.

Another point which You fail to see is that especially in the city traffic the combustion engines often produce completely useless energy. They basically only warm up their surroundings while the vehicle stands still. This is totally wasted energy with only negative impacts to the environment.

[Rally Power]

You operate with the premise that burning coal or natural gas produces same emissions as burning diesel or petrol in the vehicle engines. That's not true.

Jesus, sometimes you remind me my ex wife: always eager to refute my views…

Anyway, what I’ve mentioned isn’t a personal view at all: it’s the view of many unhappy (and expert) voices in the industry, trying to fight ‘EVs zero emissions’ lie. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/dec/08/electric-car-emissions-climate-change

Honestly, I believe those voices are right and that while we won’t manage to fairly decrease coal and natural gas share in global electricity production, we shouldn’t keep boosting EVs in such a bold way. Probably, the smarter thing would be continuing to encourage ICE efficiency (including the use of alternative fuels) and the development of mild hybrids. But then, you'll know better!

[Mirek]

Sorry but nobody here claimed that EV cars bring zero emissions.

Do EV bring less total emissions than petrol and diesel cars? Yes, they do.

Does CNG produce less emissions than diesel or petrol. Yes, it does.

Is it an improvement? Yes, it is.

Is it better to implement improvements right now or to wait for the ultimate solution which may come in decades, in centuries or maybe never?


The issues with large-scale using of EV is technical, not ecological.

[electroliquid]

Sir, have You ever watched elecric race live? I am sorry but without sound IT IS boring as hell. Moreover in rallying sound is part of the safety package. It warns spectators that something is coming. No such issue on closed circuits.

No I haven't. Now going to youtube to listen some Audi 5cyl, Subaru and Lancer Evo A group, or maybe some Porsche engines music.

[steve.mandzij]

Sir, have You ever watched elecric race live? I am sorry but without sound IT IS boring as hell. Moreover in rallying sound is part of the safety package. It warns spectators that something is coming. No such issue on closed circuits.Not at all. I attended all of the Buenos Aires Formula E races and I can say for a fact that the whoosh the electric motors make is quite fascinating. Obviously there's nothing like the meaty roar of a rally car and in the last FE race the sounds were muted by some dumbass DJ idea but electric racing sounds aren't dull at all.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[Franky]

Not at all. I attended all of the Buenos Aires Formula E races and I can say for a fact that the whoosh the electric motors make is quite fascinating. Obviously there's nothing like the meaty roar of a rally car and in the last FE race the sounds were muted by some dumbass DJ idea but electric racing sounds aren't dull at all.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5844VCjRpv0

Would you really prefer THAT?

[steve.mandzij]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5844VCjRpv0

Would you really prefer THAT?Well, that was pretty boring, but FE cars sound much better, and I never said I preferred that.

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

[dimviii]

https://rallysportmag.com/feature-ex-tte-toyota-celica-gt-four/

[Jinu13]

Moreover in rallying sound is part of the safety package. It warns spectators that something is coming. No such issue on closed circuits.

Maybe they could put cow bells on the cars so the spectators know when they're coming.

(That's a joke before I get any death threats)

[Barreis]

back in 2000 when DMACK boss was working for Pirelli (2:15)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tod4B4h9Z6U

[Mirek]

Not only Dick Cormack, many DMack people are ex-Pirelli. For example Fiorenzo Brivio, the motorsport director, and Jonathan Fowler, the technical director, are also ex-Pirelli.

[Barreis]

these days i was watchin' this old british rally championships and must admit it was really very strong. really don't know where we can find at the moment that strong national championship (maybe italy but ucci's domination destroyed it)

[electroliquid]

Not sure where put it, info from @STAVTECH facebook page about Ford Focus WRC (photo in a link): "After yesterday's post about cheating in motorsport got a massive response and countless replies with other stories (unfortunately, with no proof for 99% of them, just rumours and stories), I thought I'd post this awesome bit of rule twisting by the Ford WRC team with the Focus.
See that huge piece of welded metal there? That's a 45ltr, 2mm thick titanium tank that was normally hidden behind the rear bumper of the 2003 spec cars which were fitted with fatter US-spec rear bumpers, and you know what it contained?
BOOST!
Connected to the inlet manifold by 30mm diameter titanium tube and via an electronically controlled valve, the tank was filled with pressurised air from the turbo at part/off throttle situations where the engine airflow needs are low, but thanks to the anti-lag system the turbos compressor could still flow huge amounts of air which was otherwise surplus to requirements.
Thanks to the small 34mm inlet restrictor all WRC cars had to run in an attempt to keep power levels in check, the turbo, especially as the revs rose, couldn't supply all the air the engine would require to hit its true power potential, but with a 45ltr tank full of pressurised air, the valve would be opened by the ECU at full chat, releasing the air back to the engine with no inlet restrictor in the way, allowing a sudden performance increase, especially at higher rpm, over what an inlet restricted WRC engine could normally produce; albeit until the tank emptied!
As 100% of the air had originally still passed through the inlet restrictor, it was, technically at least, totally legal, but just like a lot of interesting inventions used in motorsport to bypass the regs, it was soon banned!" https://www.facebook.com/STAVTECH/posts/882622721914251

[Mirek]

I always thought the story of banned pressurised air canisters happened already with Escort Coswroth...Frankly I don't understand why it is shown placed in the rear bumper and not somewhere else. There it was far behind the center of gravity and behind the rear axle (the tank itself must have considerable weight, i.e. with its position also lots of inertia), it's just next to the exhaust pipe (heating of the pressurised air, huh?) and easy to damage.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Check your local TV guides - 2017 Season highlights package is due to be released this coming weekend. In NZ we can watch it on Duke TV at 11am local time on Sunday. Not yet listed on WRC+ but likely to be Friday afternoon GMT if it follows time line of Rally Preview shows

[NickRally]

Not sure where put it, info from @STAVTECH facebook page about Ford Focus WRC (photo in a link): "After yesterday's post about cheating in motorsport got a massive response and countless replies with other stories (unfortunately, with no proof for 99% of them, just rumours and stories), I thought I'd post this awesome bit of rule twisting by the Ford WRC team with the Focus.
See that huge piece of welded metal there? That's a 45ltr, 2mm thick titanium tank that was normally hidden behind the rear bumper of the 2003 spec cars which were fitted with fatter US-spec rear bumpers, and you know what it contained?
BOOST!
Connected to the inlet manifold by 30mm diameter titanium tube and via an electronically controlled valve, the tank was filled with pressurised air from the turbo at part/off throttle situations where the engine airflow needs are low, but thanks to the anti-lag system the turbos compressor could still flow huge amounts of air which was otherwise surplus to requirements.
Thanks to the small 34mm inlet restrictor all WRC cars had to run in an attempt to keep power levels in check, the turbo, especially as the revs rose, couldn't supply all the air the engine would require to hit its true power potential, but with a 45ltr tank full of pressurised air, the valve would be opened by the ECU at full chat, releasing the air back to the engine with no inlet restrictor in the way, allowing a sudden performance increase, especially at higher rpm, over what an inlet restricted WRC engine could normally produce; albeit until the tank emptied!
As 100% of the air had originally still passed through the inlet restrictor, it was, technically at least, totally legal, but just like a lot of interesting inventions used in motorsport to bypass the regs, it was soon banned!" https://www.facebook.com/STAVTECH/posts/882622721914251

As I wasn't following rallying too closely in those days, was there a boost limit on top of the air restrictor or not? Just asking so I can do a quick calc on how long the 45ltr tank can provide boost for.

[AMSS]

As I wasn't following rallying too closely in those days, was there a boost limit on top of the air restrictor or not? Just asking so I can do a quick calc on how long the 45ltr tank can provide boost for.

No, it came with the 1,6l cars

[Mirek]

I believe in 2003 the absolute pressure could have been around 3,5 bar but I'm not sure.

[janvanvurpa]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5844VCjRpv0

Would you really prefer THAT?

Jeezus it only last 29 seconds..they have lots of work to do.:rolleyes:

[NickRally]

Thanks AMSS and Mirek

[electroliquid]

Happy Independence day of Finland (spiritual home of rallying) and 100th anniversary of Finland's independence, to all Finns and fans of Finland. ;)

[AnttiL]

Happy Independence day of Finland (spiritual home of rallying) and 100th anniversary of Finland's independence, to all Finns and fans of Finland. ;)

Thanks :)

A tradition has been that the president hosts a big party on the independence day with all important people (politicians, celebrities, war veterans etc) being invited and the whole thing is televised. This year, all the Finnish WRC champions (and Markku Alen) will be among the 2000 guests.

The president Sauli Niinistö has also been a rally co-driver years ago, proved by this picture

https://images.cdn.yle.fi/image/upload//w_1199,h_898,f_auto,fl_lossy,q_auto/13-3-5004710.png

[sonnybobiche]

I think there's something about being a rally codriver that tends to make one naturally suited to leadership. There are too many examples to be mere coincidence. David Richards, Jean Todt, Luigi Macaluso, and now you tell us about Niinisto. I dare say many more co-drivers than drivers have gone on to success after their first careers.

[Watson]

I think there's something about being a rally codriver that tends to make one naturally suited to leadership. There are too many examples to be mere coincidence. David Richards, Jean Todt, Luigi Macaluso, and now you tell us about Niinisto. I dare say many more co-drivers than drivers have gone on to success after their first careers.

It might just be that they earn a lot less and therefore have to work longer.

[GravelBen]

I think there's something about being a rally codriver that tends to make one naturally suited to leadership. There are too many examples to be mere coincidence. David Richards, Jean Todt, Luigi Macaluso, and now you tell us about Niinisto. I dare say many more co-drivers than drivers have gone on to success after their first careers.

Maybe management rather than leadership?

[NickRally]

I think there's something about being a rally codriver that tends to make one naturally suited to leadership. There are too many examples to be mere coincidence. David Richards, Jean Todt, Luigi Macaluso, and now you tell us about Niinisto. I dare say many more co-drivers than drivers have gone on to success after their first careers.

This was well put by Ari Vatanen in his early autobiography book (I think it was called “Every second counts”) talking about the mistake his co-driver made at the 1985 Monte Carlo Rally and the massive range of skills these people possess, he was very complimentary as far as I remember (read the book almost twenty years ago).

[AnttiL]

https://www.rally-maps.com/Rally-Finland-1986

Just in time for the Mahonen interview aftermaths. The route of the 1000 Lakes Rally 1986 had only one stage over 20 kms (SS19 Ekojärvi 22,23 km) and 11 stages between 10 and 20 km, with the remaining 36 stages under 10 kms long. Even Ouninpohja was cut into two 7 km stages.

[SubaruNorway]

No live broadcast from Bologna this year?

[dupanton]

This is just too bad... No words for it:

https://scontent.fbru2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24909870_10154887396566607_3469847576461715897_n.j pg?oh=31857754e57dec3e345fc6676f51581a&oe=5A8FFEA8

[Watson]

This is just too bad... No words for it:

https://scontent.fbru2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/24909870_10154887396566607_3469847576461715897_n.j pg?oh=31857754e57dec3e345fc6676f51581a&oe=5A8FFEA8

Is this a joke?

[mousti]

Is this a joke?Sadly not. Fools In Action they can't stop delevering.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn SM-G935F met Tapatalk

[Munkvy]

Wow that is terribly disrespectful...

[Zeakiwi]

Citroen and Loeb/ Elena fans (ir-responsible)?

[raybak]

You all nearly lost me this morning. Was gardening and got bitten by a 5 foot Brown Snake. Killed the snake and raced to hospital with the dead snake to make sure I got the right Anti venom. Am ok and out of hospital now. Had a snake guy around and found 6 baby snakes that he took away.

The thrills of living in Australia hey!!!

Ray

[Mirek]

Glad to read You're ok!

[sete]

Wow
Happy you are OK.Sound scary
Last month we got small visitor in ours hangar - Desert horn viper,i was pretty scared.
working as aircraft technician in Saudi Arabia

[Rallyper]

You all nearly lost me this morning. Was gardening and got bitten by a 5 foot Brown Snake. Killed the snake and raced to hospital with the dead snake to make sure I got the right Anti venom. Am ok and out of hospital now. Had a snake guy around and found 6 baby snakes that he took away.

The thrills of living in Australia hey!!!

Ray

Ooouuujj! That´s why I´d never go visit Rally Australia. Have heard so many stories about what to do and not to do when spectating, from friends who have been there years ago.
Glad you´re ok. Suppose you have well trained routines for such happenings! ;)

[KiwiWRCfan]

Glad to know you are OK Ray. Speedy recovery.
Proves yet again keep your eyes open at all time you never know what you will find or where you will find it in Aussie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEdaBWsgYoA

[janvanvurpa]

You all nearly lost me this morning. Was gardening and got bitten by a 5 foot Brown Snake. Killed the snake and raced to hospital with the dead snake to make sure I got the right Anti venom. Am ok and out of hospital now. Had a snake guy around and found 6 baby snakes that he took away.

The thrills of living in Australia hey!!!

Ray

FAWK! Fawk fawkin poinsonous snakes, man! Never been down ther but was in South Africa many years ago--in fact that was my last professional racing--and we got the big warning about Black Mambas, Green Mambas, Boomslangs and various other fawkin kill you on the spot delights.....and we're doing moto-cross so wallowing around in the dirt--on the edge of the bush...last day in Port Elizabeth one of the gardeners found just 2m from where we had been sleeping out a big fawkin whatever the fawk---

Are those buggers tricky? Or were you stomping around in scubby bush to not see?

[BleAivano]

My parents have Grass snakes at their house but luckily not dangerous unless you are a small frog or something like that.
Also luckily for the snakes, we don't have a dog nowadays. When I was little we had a dachshund and while grass snakes are
fast our dog managed to hunt and kill a grass snake.

[raybak]

FAWK! Fawk fawkin poinsonous snakes, man! Never been down ther but was in South Africa many years ago--in fact that was my last professional racing--and we got the big warning about Black Mambas, Green Mambas, Boomslangs and various other fawkin kill you on the spot delights.....and we're doing moto-cross so wallowing around in the dirt--on the edge of the bush...last day in Port Elizabeth one of the gardeners found just 2m from where we had been sleeping out a big fawkin whatever the fawk---

Are those buggers tricky? Or were you stomping around in scubby bush to not see?

Was in my front yard, snakes were camped next to my Group B rally car shell.

[GravelBen]

snakes were camped next to my Group B rally car shell.

I guess they have good taste at least then?

[swanny]

5 foot. So just a small one then...

You have a rally car in your front yard? Awesome :)

[ESTR]

Was in my front yard, snakes were camped next to my Group B rally car shell.

Picture please

[Watson]

5 foot. So just a small one then...

You have a rally car in your front yard? Awesome :)

Indeed. I have that stuck in my head now. Get a totalled rally car, restore it cosmetically and have it as a garden ornament. I need to think of an idea to protect it from the weather a bit and to convince my wife :D

[Jinu13]

My boss and her husband have just bought a Subaru Impreza complete with all the trimmings and she's flashing it around like she's Instagraming the perfect turkey at Christmas. So jealous, though of course I prefer blue to black!

That aside, how long do I have to wait now for rally action, surely winter isn't this long!

[janvanvurpa]

5 foot. So just a small one then...

Awesome :)

Yeah being small is all right.. Its kills you a little less dead than the big bastids..

[raybak]

Indeed. I have that stuck in my head now. Get a totalled rally car, restore it cosmetically and have it as a garden ornament. I need to think of an idea to protect it from the weather a bit and to convince my wife :D

My first rally car is buried in the front yard, one of my team had it cubed by the scrap metal guys and left it on my front lawn.

[Watson]

I have a stupid question. If the World Champion driver changes his codriver halfway through the season, who is going to be the codriver champion? The one codriver with the biggest amount of points or the latest codriver of the drivers champ?

[AnttiL]

I have a stupid question. If the World Champion driver changes his codriver halfway through the season, who is going to be the codriver champion? The one codriver with the biggest amount of points or the latest codriver of the drivers champ?

With most points. Check out season 1993

[Watson]

With most points. Check out season 1993

Cheers mate.

[NickRally]

I have a stupid question. If the World Champion driver changes his codriver halfway through the season, who is going to be the codriver champion? The one codriver with the biggest amount of points or the latest codriver of the drivers champ?

I guess that is the reason they have two different championships and the co-driver that has amassed the most points will be the world champion co-driver. So at least theoretically it is possible that the driver and co-driver champions are part of different teams come the last rally of the season.

Edit: AnttiL was faster than me :)

[AnttiL]

I was typing on my phone, but the long story of 1993 is that Kankkunen's regular co-driver Juha Piironen had a seizure during Rally Argentina recce and couldn't compete anymore. Thus Kankkunen was paired with Nicky Grist and Denis Giraudet for the rest of the season, taking wins with all three co-drivers and winning the title, but none of the co-drivers made as many points as Francois Delecour's co-driver Daniel Grataloup. Probably the only time this happened?

[KiwiWRCfan]

According to my crystall ball SS1 of Rallye Monte Carlo 1983 will become a topic of discussion in the days leading up to Monte Carlo 2018

[dimviii]

Merry Christmas to everybody!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DRzqvYkXUAU33J_.jpg

[Franky]

The dog is already bored

[dimviii]

The dog is already bored

maybe its a sick dog.

[itix]

Something just struck me... we haven't seen Jparker for a bit. I wonder if he ended up in an asylum somewhere when Msport won both the championships ;)

[AnttiL]

maybe its a sick dog.

Couldn't help noticing that Colin Clark used the term "catastrophic dog" to describe Citroen C3 WRC

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/the-top-10-wrc-drivers-of-2017/

[dimviii]

Miki Biasion

Days of celebration and relaxation, the best time to engage in good reads!
Holidays and relaxation, the best time to have a good reading!
Find him on/Find it on: https://www.artioli.it/it/libri-online/motori/102-rally-avventure-senza-tempo-miki-biasion.html … #gift #present #leggere #rally #rallyes #classiccars #lancia @lanciadelta #ArtioliEditore

[Rallyper]

Couldn't help noticing that Colin Clark used the term "catastrophic dog" to describe Citroen C3 WRC

https://www.motorsport-news.co.uk/news/rallying-news/wrc/the-top-10-wrc-drivers-of-2017/

So he learnt from N.O.T. maybe?

[Watson]

hahaha I wonder if Colin Clark reads forums like these.

I just read the arcticle. Could they not find a less flattering picture of Lappi? He looks so miserable chewing on his banana and that under a paragraph which describes him as the great newcomer that he is.

[janvanvurpa]

The dog is already bored

No, the dog is clearly singing Christmas songs..We should all join in..

[KiwiWRCfan]

Red Bull TV will again be doing daily highlights shows in 2018 as well as continuing to do a live stage each Saturday.
Times for first 3 events can now be found at https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1TQTZPD2S2111/fia-world-rally-championship

[Watson]

Red Bull TV will again be doing daily highlights shows in 2018 as well as continuing to do a live stage each Saturday.
Times for first 3 events can now be found at https://www.redbull.tv/live/AP-1TQTZPD2S2111/fia-world-rally-championship

Are they the same live stages as on WRC+?
Or at least have they been last season?

[KiwiWRCfan]

Are they the same live stages as on WRC+?
Or at least have they been last season?

The Red Bull TV live stage will, if like 2017 also be live on WRC+. Typically Redbull TV will start between 15 and 30 minutes before WRC+ coverage with the RB commentators analysis of rally to date and driver performances. Oce stage goes live the pictures are the same but you can get different commentary on RBTV and WRC+. Which commentary you prefer is a personal choice, not a case of one being better and other worse, just different styles that appeal to different people.
While RBTV will only carry 1 live stage per rally WRC+ will have several live stages each rally

[AndyRAC]

I was hoping they'd increase the number of live stages on RedBullTV; something that was discussed on Absolute Rally after RallyGB....It's nice coverage, but still not enough free Live TV; compared to other rival series.

[ESTR]

At the end of the year of 2016 they have big mouth about more of everything and then bring only one live stage and that one in saturday (nothing special). No WRC magazine just recaps of each day. But on the other side a was thankfull they did it at least because here where I'm from all was worse than previous years. Magazines showed delayed mostly on second day of action. Live coverage cutted because of stupid football. No highlights at all. So at least RedBull was there.. and some very good people at the stages who record live on facebook.

[KiwiWRCfan]

Fantasy WRC is back in 2018.
You can register at http://www.fantasyracers.com/worldrally/general/mainpage.php

[Simmi]

Any forumers made their plans yet for 2018 rallies? Be interested to hear where people are going.

Sweden, Corsica, Sardinia and Wales for me.
Rally Legend and/or Monza Rallyshow at the end depending how much holiday I've got left.

[maailmameister]

Sweden, Finland and Germany this year for me.

[br21]

For the moment Monte and Sweden.

[MartijnS]

I hope Sardinia, Germany and Spain. Maybe Turkey.

[tommeke_B]

For me a bit calmer this year. Wanted to do Monte but couldn't sort it out with my work. Sweden and Germany for sure. Probably Sardinia or Finland too. With the latest evolutions I think it's interesting to wait for the itineraries of the events to be published, before booking. I'm not interested in visiting a 2-day event.

[Rallyper]

Sweden one stage on Saturday (logistics) only, Finland of course, and want to do Germany this year also.

[Mirek]

For me from WRC hopefully Germany and from the rest Barum, Ypres, Hustopeče (CZ and SVK champ together) and 6-8 other national events.

[PLuto]

My plans are not sure yet. I think it will be mixture of many international and national events, most probably no WRC.

[steve.mandzij]

I hope to be back in Carlos Paz this April for Rally Argentina :) the new route and the El Cóndor ascent ought to be exciting.

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[GigiGalliNo1]

WRC+ Live will be broadcasting all stages LIVE from in-car footage during WRC Rounds.

[Rallyper]

WRC+ Live will be broadcasting all stages LIVE from in-car footage during WRC Rounds.

Let´s hope you are right...

[the sniper]

Is anybody else going to Autosport International? I saw br21 is, on the trade day I imagine. I haven't been for what must be about 10 years, but when the WRC choose to launch the season 20 minutes drive away from your house, you can't really not go! :D I'll probably be going on Sunday, though I might get a chance to have a look through the window on a work break on Thursday or Friday...

[KiwiWRCfan]

I need a beer. Hayden has 7 WRC events in 2018. Seb Loeb has 3 WRC events in 2018 but none of them are the same. We have never seen Hayden driving a WRC car in the same rally as Seb Loeb and at the moment it seems unlikely to happen this year unless one of them has a change of program or gets an additional event.

[steve.mandzij]

I need a beer. Hayden has 7 WRC events in 2018. Seb Loeb has 3 WRC events in 2018 but none of them are the same. We have never seen Hayden driving a WRC car in the same rally as Seb Loeb and at the moment it seems unlikely to happen this year unless one of them has a change of program or gets an additional event.Well, Daniel Elena's got a fractured coccyx, so he'll probably miss at least Mexico. Who knows what Loeb might do?

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[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC 1983 Audi vs Lancia featured on the latest episode of The Grand Tour (44 mins in) ...

https://putlocker-hd.is/episodes/the-grand-tour-season-2-episode-7/

I actually found out some stuff that I never knew... especially Lancia's tricks !

[Rally Power]

WRC 1983 Audi vs Lancia featured on the latest episode of The Grand Tour (44 mins in) ...
https://putlocker-hd.is/episodes/the-grand-tour-season-2-episode-7/
I actually found out some stuff that I never knew... especially Lancia's tricks !

Nice show, thanks for sharing. Some of those tricks really happened and are well documented (like the stage tires changes) but others have turned into myths among Lancia’s WRC outstanding history (the car parking inspection was told since the Stratos homologation). Italian brands are deeply missed in the sport; it’d be great see them returning to rally in full mode.

[AndyRAC]

Yeah, the WRC misses Italian cars & top drivers....

[SubaruNorway]

What a joke that season was :rolleyes:

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Walter Röhrl didnt want to be World Champion and didnt do Finland as if he wanted to fly he'd get a plane... a joke, but not a funny one.

[KiwiWRCfan]

According to my crystall ball SS1 of Rallye Monte Carlo 1983 will become a topic of discussion in the days leading up to Monte Carlo 2018

I am surprised the discussion about SS1 of Monte Carlo 1983 has not started yet. It was 35 years ago today and what happened on that day, I mean night, has not happened again since.

[NickRally]

What a joke that season was :rolleyes:

Why?


I am surprised the discussion about SS1 of Monte Carlo 1983 has not started yet. It was 35 years ago today and what happened on that day, I mean night, has not happened again since.

Please expand?

[tolx]

btw, was there any final results for dupantons wrc pickems?
i'm pretty bad at this, but still would be interesting to see.

[dupanton]

btw, was there any final results for dupantons wrc pickems?
i'm pretty bad at this, but still would be interesting to see.

Yes, posted in WRC 2017 Pickem topic

[KiwiWRCfan]

Please expand?[/QUOTE]

SS1 of Rally Monte Carlo 2018 is at night and is the longest stage of the rally. This is very unusual combination.
You need to go way back to 1983 for the previous time the WRC season began with the longest stage of the season opening rally being at night.

[AnttiL]

SS1 of Rally Monte Carlo 2018 is at night and is the longest stage of the rally. This is very unusual combination.
You need to go way back to 1983 for the previous time the WRC season began with the longest stage of the season opening rally being at night.

I thought I was detailed with my statistical information :eek:

[NickRally]

SS1 of Rally Monte Carlo 2018 is at night and is the longest stage of the rally. This is very unusual combination.
You need to go way back to 1983 for the previous time the WRC season began with the longest stage of the season opening rally being at night.

Thank you

[KiwiWRCfan]

If anyone sees RallyPer can they ask him to check his Pickems. Maybe he think Bofffier and Neuville will finish rally on identical times

[Rallyper]

If anyone sees RallyPer can they ask him to check his Pickems. Maybe he think Bofffier and Neuville will finish rally on identical times

I repaired my Pickem. My bad.
In favour of Lappi. Kopecky out.
Dupanton had the nice manner to remind me of doing wrong in a PM. :)

[KiwiWRCfan]

I repaired my Pickem. My bad.
In favour of Lappi. Kopecky out.
Dupanton had the nice manner to remind me of doing wrong in a PM. :)

Hi Rallyper, it was never my intention to cause offense or embarrassment. I would like to think we are all friendly on the forum and can provide a friendly message to one another that is what was intended. Please accept my apology for any offense or embarrassment caused. Here's a round of virtual beers on me ��

[racerx1979]

Anything said by a Kiwi is in good fun. I’ve been fortunate enough to work from NZ for many months at a time. By far one of the best countries with amazing landscape and great people! I don’t think anyone was offended based on the overuse of the smiley emoji :)

That being said I’m surprised nobody sent me a PM telling me I picked Sordo for the overall which can’t be right, but I have some weird inkling he’s angry wants to prove a point. Sordo will do well or crash IMO.

[Rallyper]

Hi Rallyper, it was never my intention to cause offense or embarrassment. I would like to think we are all friendly on the forum and can provide a friendly message to one another that is what was intended. Please accept my apology for any offense or embarrassment caused. Here's a round of virtual beers on me ��

Oh no. You don´t have to excuse. And you´re right. We´re all friends here.
So no problem at all, my friend. The beer tasted good!! :) :)

[KiwiWRCfan]

Does anyone know why Andreas Mikkelsen was not part of the pre event press conference ? He was listed as one of the attendees. https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-2018-rallye-monte-carlo-preview

[racerx1979]

Rumor has it Andreas was late because he could not find a blow dryer for his hair.

[cali]

Rumor has it Andreas was late because he could not find a blow dryer for his hair.

LMAO :p

[KiwiWRCfan]

Rumor has it Andreas was late because he could not find a blow dryer for his hair.

Hypothetical question. If someone plugged a blow dryer into a car's electrical system would it cause any damage to the alternator ?

[Mk2 RS2000]

And the continuing reliability issues of car #4 continue into 2018

[Rally Power]

Still hope for Internal Combustion Engines? Interesting developments from Mazda:
http://www.autonews.com/article/20180128/OEM06/180129795/mazda-planning-skyactiv-3-engine-as-clean-as-an-ev

[Franky]

May I offer all a free virtual beer round on me? Or whatever you prefer as this evening is starting to look crazy here.

[seb_sh]

What's going on, is WRC getting more popular or something? In the last few days we have raging threads in order to decide the best looking rally driver, the best rally driver in traffic of all time and how many events to ban a rally driver for sliding on a snowy road. :o

Discussions are nice but some of those threads are getting quite hot! I hope they don't melt the snow in Sweden! :D

[the sniper]

Just randomly looking at rally stuff on Ebay and came across this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WRC-Rallye-Monte-Carlo-2012-Award-World-Rally-Championship-80e/112774097944

Seemingly Louise Cook is having to sell more memorabilia, this time to pay for a 2000 Euro fine from Rally Sweden last year for not pushing the safety button after crashing. Nice thing to buy if you're a collector. Feel rather sorry for her having to sell the amount of stuff she has done over the years, particularly this time to pay a fine...

[dimviii]

renault 5 turbo history

https://rallysportmag.com/feature-the-story-of-the-renault-5-turbo-rally-car/

[Rallyper]

May I offer all a free virtual beer round on me? Or whatever you prefer as this evening is starting to look crazy here.

Can I have Rum and Coke instead? :)

[spiderem]

To the Finnish members of this forum, do you really grill sausages inside whilst having a sauna? My girlfriend is doubtful and wonder how do you manage the smell. Thanks.

[Essaj]

To the Finnish members of this forum, do you really grill sausages inside whilst having a sauna? My girlfriend is doubtful and wonder how do you manage the smell. Thanks.

Just wrap the sausages inside a aluminum foil, put it on the heated rocks and you are good to go.
I don't personally notice the smell but when cooked food smell is a bad thing? =)
But to be honest I still prefer my sausages heated on open fire.

[spiderem]

Just wrap the sausages inside a aluminum foil, put it on the heated rocks and you are good to go.
I don't personally notice the smell but when cooked food smell is a bad thing? =)
But to be honest I still prefer my sausages heated on open fire.

Thanks!

[Franky]

Just wrap the sausages inside a aluminum foil, put it on the heated rocks and you are good to go.
I don't personally notice the smell but when cooked food smell is a bad thing? =)
But to be honest I still prefer my sausages heated on open fire.

I don't think it's the best idea anyway, unless you don't throw any water onto the rocks.

[Franky]

Can I have Rum and Coke instead? :)

As it's too early for that drink, then you can have tea with rum at the moment. And as a preventive measure, please hand in your driver's license.

[dimviii]

https://twitter.com/Craig_Breen/status/959503849504563200

[Zeakiwi]

Dave Richards? (at least his doppleganger) in the Schnitzer BMW pits for the GT3 race at Bathurst, Australia, mending bridges/ networking for an r5 mini project application? Dakar did not go too well for the X-Raid mini 4x4s and mini buggies and all the Euros tipped in that direction?

Edit 4/2 - tv commentator confirmed that it was Dave Richards at the Bathurst 12 hour.

[Watson]

https://twitter.com/Craig_Breen/status/959503849504563200

Good to see that despite the dysfunctional team the Citroen drivers' friendship is intact.

[Rally Hokkaido]

Dave Richards? (at least his doppleganger) in the Schnitzer BMW pits for the GT3 race at Bathurst, Australia, mending bridges/ networking for an r5 mini project application? Dakar did not go too well for the X-Raid mini 4x4s and mini buggies and all the Euros tipped in that direction?

I noticed that guy with the beard and had similar thoughts, too. Maybe his German twin?

Edit: TV commentator confirmed it was David Richards in his new role as head of MSA (UK's ASN).

[A FONDO]

Good to see that despite the dysfunctional team the Citroen drivers' friendship is intact.

So the team is guilty for everything including the full moon eclipse?

[Watson]

So the team is guilty for everything including the full moon eclipse?

Come again?

[EstWRC]

not a bar talk but tea talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J58oIVxwPFU

[dimviii]

very nice interview with Mikkola
https://rallysportmag.com/interview-1983-world-rally-champion-hannu-mikkola/

[AnttiK7]

very nice interview with Mikkola
https://rallysportmag.com/interview-1983-world-rally-champion-hannu-mikkola/

This was a very interesting interview, thanks! About alcohol, Hannu gave it up for good in either 1975 or 1976. And it's funny when you look back now at footage of him from 1978-1979 for example, he is like a completely different man to a few years before, like he suddenly became 15 years younger. And in the late 70s he was clearly the best rally driver in the world in my opinion. I'm sure that decision also played a big role in the success in the 80s that was to follow and the amazing longevity of his career, factory rally driver until 50. The funny thing is, he looked younger in 1984 at 42 than he did in 1974 at 32.

I was spectating with him in the same corner in a Finnish Championship event in 2002. I think he was there mainly to see his friend Timo Salonen who was in a Group N car warming up for his 50 year celebration Rally Finland later that year. Anyway, people were half jokingly asking if Hannu would also do a 60 year celebration event that same year, which Hannu politely declined. The thing is though, Hannu at 60 looked younger than most other Finnish rally greats have looked at 50. And probably could have also given a good run for the money on the stages.

[dimviii]

https://twitter.com/ProkopOfficial/status/965695175883403264

[Rallyper]

If you want to watch my ugly old grumpy face, take a look at Meekes´off at SS13. I´m kind of snubbling trying to push the car, which at that moment moved backwards. Kind of funny stuff. But at least I feel like moviestar. I wear a red winther hat. :) :)

http://www.wrc.com/en/wrc/videos/page/112---2-.html

Btw my son was only one catching it on video. He is standing to the left waving Meeke to move on.

[A FONDO]

Petter Solberg RX @Petter_Solberg

Spot anything odd here? 🤔
20 years ago today one of the most famous moments in Norwegian rally history happened to me at Rally Finnskog, after oil problems the only solution was an extra oil supply tied to the roof! And it worked - we won!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWeKt9DWsAALuUO.jpg:large

[N.O.T]

Petter Solberg RX @Petter_Solberg

Spot anything odd here? ��
20 years ago today one of the most famous moments in Norwegian rally history happened to me at Rally Finnskog, after oil problems the only solution was an extra oil supply tied to the roof! And it worked - we won!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWeKt9DWsAALuUO.jpg:large

he was lucky some finish old piece of trash did not report him to the FIA back then...

[KiwiWRCfan]

Barman - "What would you like"
Rally fan - "A glass of Tequila"
Barman - " Here you are, enjoy. So what brings you in tonight"
Rally fan - "Thought I'd grab a few drinks while waiting for Rally Mexico entries to be announced"
Barman - "Best I leave this bottle open and get another out of the store room then"

[steve.mandzij]

Barman - "What would you like"
Rally fan - "A glass of Tequila"
Barman - " Here you are, enjoy. So what brings you in tonight"
Rally fan - "Thought I'd grab a few drinks while waiting for Rally Mexico entries to be announced"
Barman - "Best I leave this bottle open and get another out of the store room then"I'd change it to "thought I'd grab a few drinks before Latvala's drivers' title"

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[Rallyper]

I'd change it to "thought I'd grab a few drinks before Latvala's drivers' title"

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You can´t live for so long time in a bar, unless you own it yourself ... ;)

[Franky]

[...]unless you own it yourself ... ;)

I fear bankruptcy would come before death then.

[danon]

https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1440x655c/Rally-Islas-Canarias-2017-CRASH-Kasperczyk_1440x655c.jpg

[AL14]

https://www.diariomotor.com/competicion/imagenes/picscache/1440x655c/Rally-Islas-Canarias-2017-CRASH-Kasperczyk_1440x655c.jpg

That "Got talent? Prove it!" at the top of the mirror is magic

[danon]

https://s5.postimg.org/p7k8c7sg7/Ogier_PS_snacks_treats.jpg

[Rally Power]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/17075
Martini quits F1 at the end of the year. Any chance to have them back in WRC?

[N.O.T]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/17075
Martini quits F1 at the end of the year. Any chance to have them back in WRC?

ask them

[steve.mandzij]

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/17075
Martini quits F1 at the end of the year. Any chance to have them back in WRC?Martini would look amazing on any 2017 car! Imagine their trademark lines coming from the diveplanes.

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[ESTR]

Martini would look amazing on any 2017 car! Imagine their trademark lines coming from the diveplanes.

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You know what would be awesome? All cars painted in Redbull colors like in Dakar.

[steve.mandzij]

You know what would be awesome? All cars painted in Redbull colors like in Dakar.Eh.

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[AnttiL]

Today me and my friend took a ride in the Simrac rally simulator which is built inside a Focus WRC with a screen ahead of it, the car moving on a hydraulic platform to get a bit more authentic feeling with the car going over bumps, jumps and slides. The stage on the simulator is no less than Ouninpohja (well, split into pieces). The gear shift, pedals, steering, seat and the seat belts are the real deal so just sitting in a car like that is an experience itself, let alone getting to operate it. Keeping the car on the road is surprisingly difficult but it's also very fun.

Here's a video bit that my friend shot from the co-driver seat https://twitter.com/AnttiL_WRC/status/969230643728175104 doing the stage in the 2016 direction. We also drove the Kakaristo part, even with the virtual version it's a goosebumps experience to drive through that junction.

http://www.simrac.com/galleria_focus2008e.jpg

[danon]

^
^
A l-o-n-g time ago with just a Logitech G27 Force Feedback Wheel and Pedal Set

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tfEQudnz08

[Rally Hokkaido]

The long-term future of motor sport is not so bad (even if, in the short-term, Mercedes F1 Team needs to upgrade their data-acquisition system...lol)
here; https://www.star.kiwi/2018/03/co-driver-could-be-youngest-rally-winner/
and here;
https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-team-boss-toto-wolff-gets-upstaged-by-8yearold-girl-ahead-of-australian-grand-prix/news-story/cea389a5975942c5b443d9b35ad2824d

[dimviii]

keep control of him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVKePMFw5vM&feature=youtu.be

[KiwiWRCfan]

Barman - Hi co-driver what would you like
Co-driver - Anything just make it strong and make it a double
Barman - What's wrong ? You really don't seem very happy
Co-driver - I've been calling notes for years and what have I achieved ? What chance do I have now ?
Barman - I don't understand, what's happened
Co-driver - Here read this https://www.star.kiwi/2018/03/co-driver-could-be-youngest-rally-winner/

[Essaj]

Barman - Hi co-driver what would you like
Co-driver - Anything just make it strong and make it a double
Barman - What's wrong ? You really don't seem very happy
Co-driver - I've been calling notes for years and what have I achieved ? What chance do I have now ?
Barman - I don't understand, what's happened
Co-driver - Here read this https://www.star.kiwi/2018/03/co-driver-could-be-youngest-rally-winner/

First of all congratulations to both Matt & Jared!
I was about to write a longer story about this but decided otherwise since it would have most likely been taken the wrong way to most of you since i'm bad at expressing myself in English.
Jared and his parents are great example of giving their kids a change to pursuit motorsport in a different way than driving.
Co-drivers should deserve the same level of attention as drivers do, they have atleast as important job as drivers do but normally they don't get as much of recognition as they deserve.
Hopefully Jared keeps doing what he does and learns to rally with notes aswell. We have a lot of young drivers but new and young co-drivers are always needed to keep the sport alive!

[denkimi]

Co-drivers should deserve the same level of attention as drivers do, they have atleast as important job as drivers do but normally they don't get as much of recognition as they deserve.
Hopefully Jared keeps doing what he does and learns to rally with notes aswell. We have a lot of young drivers but new and young co-drivers are always needed to keep the sport alive!
the thing is, if you put ogier next to some other codriver, he will probably still win. if you put ingrassia next to some other driver, they will most likely not win anymore.

no matter how important codrivers are, they will never be as important and thus get the same attention as drivers. but on the other hand, they also don't get the same shit when things go bad.

[Essaj]

the thing is, if you put ogier next to some other codriver, he will probably still win. if you put ingrassia next to some other driver, they will most likely not win anymore.

no matter how important codrivers are, they will never be as important and thus get the same attention as drivers. but on the other hand, they also don't get the same shit when things go bad.

That's also true but Usually when driver wins it's always just "ogier" winning but when crash happens it's always "Ogier and Ingrassia" who made the mistake.
It would be great if co-drivers would get more appreciation for what they do so maybe young kids would be more interested in that field aswell.
Okay I totally agree that it shouldn't be 50-50 as drivers are and will always be the bigger and visual part in the car but co-drivers totally deserve more.
like we saw in last years FIA price givings when Ogier received a big trophy while Ingrassia only got a small one.
Rally has and always will be co-op championship. Drivers will be the big stars but we also need star co-drivers to fill the roles of retiring co-drivers.

[danon]

Red or Blue?

Volkswagen Motorsport - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaCHFcfZBBs

[GravelBen]

Barman - Hi co-driver what would you like
Co-driver - Anything just make it strong and make it a double
Barman - What's wrong ? You really don't seem very happy
Co-driver - I've been calling notes for years and what have I achieved ? What chance do I have now ?
Barman - I don't understand, what's happened
Co-driver - Here read this https://www.star.kiwi/2018/03/co-driver-could-be-youngest-rally-winner/

I hear he isn't actually the youngest rally winner in NZ, apparently Hayden Graves won Catlins rally (or was it Dusky? One of the ESCC club rallies anyway) co-driving for his dad (Andrew Graves, who also co-drives as well as driving) at the age of 12.

Great stuff all the same!

[sollitt]

Co-drivers should deserve the same level of attention as drivers do, they have atleast as important job as drivers do ...
There's a fairly obvious flaw in your argument. I wonder if you can spot it.

[N.O.T]

Co-drivers should deserve the same level of attention as drivers do, they have atleast as important job as drivers do but normally they don't get as much of recognition as they deserve.


can you name a co-driver that changed driver and made him world champion ?

Co-drivers are (almost) nothing.

[AnttiL]

Seppo Harjanne, champion first with Timo Salonen in 1985 and then with Tommi Mäkinen in 1996 and 1997, having ”coached” Mäkinen from the group N times in 1990 into a succesful factory driver.

[dupanton]

Co-drivers are (almost) nothing.

NO. Just no

[AnttiL]

I would say the importance of the selection of co-driver is in the mental side, in getting a good team spirit and having good time during the rallies. Also an experienced co-driver can help a younger driver. But co-driver cannot "perform" in the way as a driver can. All he can do is read the pace notes correctly at correct time, make sure the car is at schedule on time control and so on.

[dupanton]

I can't totally agree with that. If course ultimately it is the driver that makes the difference. But as a codriver you have a big influence on the mental side of driver. Some drivers need to be pushed to go fast, others need to be calmed down to stay out of trouble.
On a WRC level the codriver has less influence on that. But on a national level and with less experienced drivers, a codriver can make a huge difference.

[Lousada]

I don't know if anybody has already posted this? Sorry if this was already known.

motorsport.tv now have the rights to the Duke video archive. That means, among other things, video reviews of all WRC rallies between 1985 and 1991.

Those who have acces to the cable channel can spot them sometimes in the boradcasting schedule. For example during the coming Tour de Corse they will broadcast the 1986, 1988 and 1991 editions each day at 23:00 (and repeat later at night).

They also have an online streaming service. There they have currently WRC 34 videos uploaded. They upload new ones every few weeks. Here you can find all the classic WRC events that are currently uploaded: https://motorsport.tv/program/world-rally/196

It is a pay service but you get a one month free trial if you register now.

[steve.mandzij]

I would say the importance of the selection of co-driver is in the mental side, in getting a good team spirit and having good time during the rallies. Also an experienced co-driver can help a younger driver. But co-driver cannot "perform" in the way as a driver can. All he can do is read the pace notes correctly at correct time, make sure the car is at schedule on time control and so on.Apparently it was Martin Jarveoja that propelled Tanak to his championship contender status.

[AnttiL]

I can't totally agree with that. If course ultimately it is the driver that makes the difference. But as a codriver you have a big influence on the mental side of driver. Some drivers need to be pushed to go fast, others need to be calmed down to stay out of trouble.
On a WRC level the codriver has less influence on that. But on a national level and with less experienced drivers, a codriver can make a huge difference.

Actually, I said basically the same in my post :)

[Barreis]

in my opinion, co-drivers are really important (their experience and confidence that they give to driver). but I respect everybody's opinion

[Rallyper]

"Bartender! Please, can I have a double whisky? Have to close my ears for a while, zipping some drinkable."

[tommeke_B]

can you name a co-driver that changed driver and made him world champion ?

Co-drivers are (almost) nothing.
Time to find help N.O.T., if it's not too late yet...

[N.O.T]

Co-drivers contribute maybe a 20% of the overall speed.... swap any co-driver of the top 10 drivers and the champion will not change... do the opposite and the fun begins...

co drivers are nothing compared to the drivers when actual results are compared...

[tommeke_B]

You cannot put a percentage on what they contribute, their work isn't measurable (unless they make a mistake). But for example we have seen a big impact with Järveoja on Tänak, who wasn't constant and reliable, now he's one of the most reliable drivers in the championship. For Neuville there was a turning point in his career when he started working with Nicolas Gilsoul, Neuville would likely not be in the WRC now without Gilsoul. If codrivers were so unimportant as you say, there would be far more switches I think. Recently there are some drivers in WRC who switched codrivers, but most were already very reliable drivers with a lot of experience (Sordo, Ostberg, Mikkelsen).

[Mintexmemory]

You cannot put a percentage on what they contribute, their work isn't measurable (unless they make a mistake). But for example we have seen a big impact with Järveoja on Tänak, who wasn't constant and reliable, now he's one of the most reliable drivers in the championship. For Neuville there was a turning point in his career when he started working with Nicolas Gilsoul, Neuville would likely not be in the WRC now without Gilsoul. If codrivers were so unimportant as you say, there would be far more switches I think. Recently there are some drivers in WRC who switched codrivers, but most were already very reliable drivers with a lot of experience (Sordo, Ostberg, Mikkelsen).

Agreed, my personal view is that VW forced Mikkelsen into dumping Ola Floene far too prematurely.

[denkimi]

For Neuville there was a turning point in his career when he started working with Nicolas Gilsoul, Neuville would likely not be in the WRC now without Gilsoul.
Neuville has been fast and reliable with all his co-pilots. He's an example of the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

[dupanton]

Neuville has been fast and reliable with all his co-pilots. He's an example of the opposite of what you're trying to prove.

If you compare his 2010 season with Klinger and his 2011 season with Gilsoul, there is a big difference, both in speed and reliability. If course, he had more experience too, but I do think he really started to impress when he started driving with Gilsoul.

[electroliquid]

Co-drivers contribute maybe a 20% of the overall speed....
co drivers are nothing compared to the drivers when actual results are compared...

In therms of pure speed it might be even less, but those few percents actually make difference between good result and no result at all.

[KiwiWRCfan]

RallyFan - a glass of Champagne for everyone please
Barman - something special to celebrate ?
RallyFan - Champagne for a Champagne memory
Barman - Explain, I do not understand
Rallfan - 20 years ago today Seb Loeb & Daniel Elena finished their first event together. It was the 1998 Rallye Epernay Vins de Champagne 1998. They won their class. So Champagne to celebrate a class act winning their class in Champagne
Barman - A vote santé

The barman then sets a short video playing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-zKXLOE9mg&feature=youtu.be&t=92

[Rallyper]

You cannot put a percentage on what they contribute, their work isn't measurable (unless they make a mistake). But for example we have seen a big impact with Järveoja on Tänak, who wasn't constant and reliable, now he's one of the most reliable drivers in the championship. For Neuville there was a turning point in his career when he started working with Nicolas Gilsoul, Neuville would likely not be in the WRC now without Gilsoul. If codrivers were so unimportant as you say, there would be far more switches I think. Recently there are some drivers in WRC who switched codrivers, but most were already very reliable drivers with a lot of experience (Sordo, Ostberg, Mikkelsen).

However putting numbers on a certain answer makes for the receiver of the message easier to understand and from the giver of answer to tell what he means. Nothing wrong with that in this case either.
I would say 20% is maybe too much.
The discussion overall I find it a bit ridiculous.

Barman! Beer for everyone. It´s on me.

[dimviii]

https://www.autoclassics.com/posts/reviews/how-miki-biasion-led-wrc

[danon]

https://media.giphy.com/media/8cmrh907744w5k9MSz/giphy.gif

[dimviii]

a$$hole of the century

https://twitter.com/WorldRallyCAM/status/982690419053080576

[AnttiL]

Rally Catalunya maps for 1997 onwards at www.rally-maps.com

https://www.rally-maps.com/Rally-de-Espa%C3%B1a-1997

[N.O.T]

a$$hole of the century

https://twitter.com/WorldRallyCAM/status/982690419053080576

its argentina... not much different than animals.

[Co-driven]

its argentina... not much different than animals.

Small correction: that's not Argentina, that was in Paraguay.