Rally Discussion and Bar Talk Thread

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Whatever happened to Paddon's Kona EV rally car that he was promising would have external artificial engine noise ?

[DoN_cz]

It eventually had some kind of noise, but nothing that I (or people?) expected. Just some electric whistle/buzz.

[240RS]

Richard Millener really struggled to explain the merits of having hybrid units on Rally1 cars in a chat with Dirtfish.

I got the feeling that marketing and imaging were getting in the way of their core business of selling customer cars!!!!

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/did-sesks-undermine-the-purpose-of-hybrid-in-wrc/

[PLuto]

Why do you keep repeating this when it is clearly wrong?

Current technology EVs can do the current WRC stages just fine. Refueling zones are set up completely arbitrary and have no effect on spectator experience.

At the extreme you could do 10 min charges at the end of each stage. With current gaps that would mean 4 cars charging at the same time. Lets say they charge at 360 kw which is mainstream tech today and you get 60 kwh charged. That is enough for 150 km road section minimum or a normal stage and some 50 km road section.

If you have 10 cars total in top class the charging station would need some 700 kwh capacity total, should be roughly 2-3t. So the charging station could be on a small truck, no need for trailer.

I say again why do you keep repeating that this is impossible?

Because it is impossible and nonsense...

[saco0o]

https://youtu.be/Cae2haI-zmY?feature=shared

Could you guys imagine something like this rallying before the end of this decade?

this is like if astrology could have a physical body. it serves no porpouse other than fool desperate people haha jeez

[saco0o]

Richard Millener really struggled to explain the merits of having hybrid units on Rally1 cars in a chat with Dirtfish.

I got the feeling that marketing and imaging were getting in the way of their core business of selling customer cars!!!!

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/did-sesks-undermine-the-purpose-of-hybrid-in-wrc/

i think his point could be right, on the "on technical rallies, the differences would be bigger". it'd be cool if they run one non hybrid at one of these events, but with someone like Loeb, so we coudl actually see what a good driver can do against the hy cars. but imo the general point is that, as they said, the non hy car looks awesome both live and on tv and it would cost half of the price. and if you remove those extra 100kg they would be faster. fine, it would be dangerous, so, idk, keep 50kg for safety, whatever. the last point would be: "would we have more teams and privateers?

[mknight]

Because it is impossible and nonsense...

When faced with numbers and real arguments this is the perfect response. ;)

[Eli]

this is like if astrology could have a physical body. it serves no porpouse other than fool desperate people haha jeez

Just so we’re clear, I hope they don’t and I can’t (imagine it).

[mknight]

https://youtu.be/Cae2haI-zmY?feature=shared

Could you guys imagine something like this rallying before the end of this decade?

Totally.

The only real issue with electric rally cars is the lack of noise, especially at low speeds. Both for "entertainment", safety and to hear what the driver is actually doing (braking/acceleration).

So sound generator dictated by rules would be mandatory. Consumer electric cars already have it for low speeds.

The only version I heard from Paddons car sounded weird. But maybe it is better live. Taycan artificial sound is quite good live for example.

The big question is whether you need to have artificial gears like that mode in Ioniq 5N. If so it could again be set in the rules.

[WRCStan]

https://youtu.be/Cae2haI-zmY?feature=shared

Could you guys imagine something like this rallying before the end of this decade?

Sure, the non-N can now (https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2024_bridgestone_fia_ecorally_cup_-_fia_wltp_01-24.pdf) so why not?

Of course, it may depend on what you accept as rallying.

[WRCStan]

The big question is whether you need to have artificial gears like that mode in Ioniq 5N. If so it could again be set in the rules.

The bigger question is who's buying them, and are we likely to be seeing these at all at the end of this decade.

[saco0o]

another thought I had reading the dirt fish article with msport about the non hybrid car. he said that evs went on a high (sells? perception?) and now are declining and hybrids are going up. at the same time is super normal to find daily articles on how much evs are growing (in sells and perception) passing hybrids for new cars. u'know? we can find both arguments nowadays. its such a mess. we probably can find data showing how both evs and hybrids are outselling each other on the same journal. everything is so weird and contradictory nowadays, all the time.

[Mirek]

Why do you keep repeating this when it is clearly wrong?

Current technology EVs can do the current WRC stages just fine. Refueling zones are set up completely arbitrary and have no effect on spectator experience.

At the extreme you could do 10 min charges at the end of each stage. With current gaps that would mean 4 cars charging at the same time. Lets say they charge at 360 kw which is mainstream tech today and you get 60 kwh charged. That is enough for 150 km road section minimum or a normal stage and some 50 km road section.

If you have 10 cars total in top class the charging station would need some 700 kwh capacity total, should be roughly 2-3t. So the charging station could be on a small truck, no need for trailer.

I say again why do you keep repeating that this is impossible?

I have never said an EV rally car can not do a rally loop distance. The problem is that it can not be competitive to WRC cars at the same time.

Let's say you take a car with 60 kWh battery. That is about 250 kg without cooling. What percentage of the energy can be recuperated in rallying? Formula-E does about 40% but that is impossible in rallying, especially on gravel. Let's say it can be 20%. That means you have realistically 1,2 * 60 =72 kWh. How far can WRC go with 72 kWh (I count the powertrain to have 100% efficiency for simplification)? Hard to say but we can simplify the question by setting the loop as long as a petrol tank allows. Just for comparison.

If we go by the petrol Rally2 cars (to avoid the effect of hybrid which is too complex to estimate) we can count that 80 litres equals 60 kg of petrol which is 780 kWh of energy. The petrol engine has much lower efficiency. How much? An average turbocharged petrol engine has about 40%. WRC engine will have probably less due to the use of anti-lag and also the mechanical drivetrain is less efficient. Let's say that it's total 25% which might be too low. That means the Rally2 car in my example has 195 kWh of usable energy available. How much does en empty rally fuel tank weight? I don't know but it's a soft bag. Let's put it filled at 100 kg which might even be too much. The racing battery needs massive cooling otherwise it can not discharge and recharge high power. In formula-E the battery alone creates about 60% of the battery pack total weight, that makes our battery pack about 400 kg heavy and it contains about 1/3 of usable energy compared to the fuel tank of the Rally2 car which is 4x lighter.


If we use the same average power with both cars (I counted the effect of recuperation into usable energy value already) we need in theory more than 3x total battery capacity for one fuel tank. What C-rate is used for race battery charging? I don't know. Normally the very best batteries allow 4C not to damage the battery but that applies only for 20-80% of the charge level, not for 0-100%. That would destroy the battery. It means we can use only 60% of the battery capacity for the fastest charging. That is only 36 kWh available for the fastest charging. The good thing is that with 4C you can recharge that in 9 minutes which looks great. The bad thing is that 3x quick recharging is not enough to finish the loop a fully-filled petrol rally2 car can finish.

But that's not all. As we saw our EV has 300 kg extra weight for the 60kWh battery. It will definitely need to deliver more power than the Rally2 to be as fast. In fact it will need a lot more because its weight will punish it badly in cornering speed and maybe even in braking (the recuperation will help here but I don't know if enough). This hypothetical example fits with the reality where an EV Rally2 car with similar battery to my example was clearly slower than the Rally2 cars.

But the worst thing is that this example compared with Rally2 not with WRC. WRC cars are about 2 s/km faster than Rally2 which means that among other things they need a lot more power. The equation to give them enough energy onboard in batteries to allow them to be so powerfull to overcome the weight punishment coming with the larger battery is unsolvable at the current tech level, at least at some realistic price tag.

Hence why I repeat my stance that the only way how to make EV competitive in rallying at the currect tech level is to give them an energy source with far greater density - in serial hybrid it's the petrol which carries about 50x more energy per kg than the best batteries. Anyway Audi won Dakar while the pure EVs have achieved exactly nothing in rallying.

PS I am well aware that there is a lot of guessing in my post but a mistake in the range of 10-20% doesn't change the resume.

[becher]

I don't see why recuperation would be a performance benefit, the limiting factor under braking is grip not power of the brakes no?

[Mirek]

I don't see why recuperation would be a performance benefit, the limiting factor under braking is grip not power of the brakes no?

There are more factors but the most important one (especially whe you count the whole stage) is the power you can take away from the brakes, i.e with normal brakes the heat you can dissipate. Recuperation takes away huge amount of heat.

[mknight]

Direct quote:


Serial hybrid is the only way an EV can do a WRC event on the current technological level but nobody seems to be interested in it.

"Can do" - is able to run or finish.

Nothing about speed.

You know that 1990 group A car would get beaten by 1986 group B car. 2013 Fiesta WRC would get beaten by 2008 Focus WRC on most rallies etc.

Ironically the epic looking and sounding group B car would also get beaten by even WRC car from 2003 on most rallies due to much better suspension and traction.

Speed does only matter inside own class, spectacle matters more. In terms of EVs the car could be more spectacular out of corners especially slow corners but will obviously lose time in faster corners and braking. (Kinda exact opposite of an S2000).

If EV rally car can deliver more spectacle than current Rally2 it won't matter if its only marginally faster. Some 0,5-1s/km faster than current Rally2 should be possible even by your rough numbers.

To make Rally EV spectacular it needs to have much more power even at the expense of much more weight. Not be "similar" to petrol cars. So more like the NitroRX cars than the 360 hp RX2e cars.


With regards to the numbers you don't seem to take away the extra weight of the petrol engine as well as some related bits like center diff and much bigger gearbox. But if we instead assume a bigger battery the weight difference would likely be about the same.

For comparison current Taycan and Ioniq 5N will do over 50 km (over 2 laps) at Nurburgring at max push before the batteries overheat with battery capacity to spare. In a racing car cooling could obviously be increased.

[mknight]

The bigger question is who's buying them, and are we likely to be seeing these at all at the end of this decade.


another thought I had reading the dirt fish article with msport about the non hybrid car. he said that evs went on a high (sells? perception?) and now are declining and hybrids are going up. at the same time is super normal to find daily articles on how much evs are growing (in sells and perception) passing hybrids for new cars. u'know? we can find both arguments nowadays. its such a mess. we probably can find data showing how both evs and hybrids are outselling each other on the same journal. everything is so weird and contradictory nowadays, all the time.

Manufacturers as well as public try to extrapolate what people will buy and manus will make in 10 years based on a few months of sales differences.

That can bring totally crazy results both ways. Some people (often outside of automotive) predicted that everyone will only buy EVs in 5-10 years. Similarly some people (often those that have 0 EV experience) predict that there won't be any EVs in 5-10 years.

The result will be somewhere in between. If regulations stay about the same I expect something like 50/50 for BEV vs others (incl Hybrids) in Europe in 10 years. Here in Norway it's 80/20 for quite some time now and I don't see it changing more than 5-10 percent either way.

What is mentioned in the Dirtfish article is that right now (last 3 months) EV sales globally have slowed down, so some manus found out that they might not have anything (new) to offer outside of EVs in the very near future and are re-routing some money to other drivetrains. Whether that is temporary fix or permanent is close to impossible to predict at the moment.

[Rallyper]

Within 10 years there´s not much EV´s sold at all.

Hydrogen engines will rather rule.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Capito's against pure EV in rallying (mostly due to no noise)...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/capito-wrc-can-never-run-fully-electric-cars/

[skarderud]

Within 10 years there´s not much EV´s sold at all.

Hydrogen engines will rather rule.Well, in a climate that it is in norway and sweden, i doubt hydrogen is the solution.
Its steam that comes out, you don't need much fantasy to understand how 20.000 cars in the morning and the temperature is below 0 will "adjust" the griplevel on the road.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[PLuto]

Manufacturers as well as public try to extrapolate what people will buy and manus will make in 10 years based on a few months of sales differences.

That can bring totally crazy results both ways. Some people (often outside of automotive) predicted that everyone will only buy EVs in 5-10 years. Similarly some people (often those that have 0 EV experience) predict that there won't be any EVs in 5-10 years.

The result will be somewhere in between. If regulations stay about the same I expect something like 50/50 for BEV vs others (incl Hybrids) in Europe in 10 years. Here in Norway it's 80/20 for quite some time now and I don't see it changing more than 5-10 percent either way.

What is mentioned in the Dirtfish article is that right now (last 3 months) EV sales globally have slowed down, so some manus found out that they might not have anything (new) to offer outside of EVs in the very near future and are re-routing some money to other drivetrains. Whether that is temporary fix or permanent is close to impossible to predict at the moment.

With current technology of batteries, charging, infrastructure etc, it is nonsense for EV to be majority on the market. This is very simple. If the technology will change or there will be big development, then we can talk about changes... And yes, I have also experience with hybrids and electric cars. And I hate them :)

[becher]

There are more factors but the most important one (especially whe you count the whole stage) is the power you can take away from the brakes, i.e with normal brakes the heat you can dissipate. Recuperation takes away huge amount of heat.
Ah yes I was only thinking of out right stopping power.

[WRCStan]

They just market it as HF, in a very same manner that Skoda market their product as "Fabia RS Rally2" despite actual road-going Fabia RS not existing since 2014, same as Ford with the "Fiesta RS WRC" without actual RS version of Fiesta ever existing.
What an audacity.

Not really, they are spot on. A road going Fabia RS is the Rally2. That's what it means, that's where the sport, the tech, the specs are... If your Fabia isn't rally ready, it's not an RS. And you can absolutely go and buy one.

[mknight]

With current technology of batteries, charging, infrastructure etc, it is nonsense for EV to be majority on the market. This is very simple. If the technology will change or there will be big development, then we can talk about changes... And yes, I have also experience with hybrids and electric cars. And I hate them :)

One of my favorite quotes:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"Current technology" is a notable part of the discussion. EV sold today has basically the same technology as 10 years ago... except it evolved massively.
Yes there has not be a massive step in range/charging, but there have been lots of tiny steps. Together these added up so that nowadays mainstream cars have 500 km real range in summer and some 400 in winter (real winter, not 1 week of snow and barely below zero) and charge half the battery in under 15 mins.

The only real limit for EVs becoming mainstream is the price. The high prices are partly caused by manufacturers themselves cause they all started with big SUVs with lots of power that they could make good margins on.

Found a graph for you to explain while I have issues with people living in CZ explaining how EVs don't work:

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/ekonomika-v-eu-se-loni-prodalo-15-milionu-elektroaut-benzin-a-nafta-ale-vyrazne-vedou-244690

CZ with 3% EV sales in 2023 (3rd lowest in EU, though the two last have 2.9 and 2.7% which is basically the same). Norway is not on the chart cause it is not in EU, but the rate is over 80% for some time. (The rate of EVs to total number of vehicles on the road is over 25% and increasing)

Yes EVs are comparably cheaper in Norway due to the tax system, which removes the price issue. (Though in practice it mostly means people buy better cars than they did before for the same price.)
Still it doesn't change that it can be used to see if all the other EV "issues" are a big problem....and they aren't.

[Mirek]

Ah yes I was only thinking of out right stopping power.

Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.

[Mirek]

One of my favorite quotes:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

"Current technology" is a notable part of the discussion. EV sold today has basically the same technology as 10 years ago... except it evolved massively.
Yes there has not be a massive step in range/charging, but there have been lots of tiny steps. Together these added up so that nowadays mainstream cars have 500 km real range in summer and some 400 in winter (real winter, not 1 week of snow and barely below zero) and charge half the battery in under 15 mins.

The only real limit for EVs becoming mainstream is the price. The high prices are partly caused by manufacturers themselves cause they all started with big SUVs with lots of power that they could make good margins on.

Found a graph for you to explain while I have issues with people living in CZ explaining how EVs don't work:

https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/ekonomika-v-eu-se-loni-prodalo-15-milionu-elektroaut-benzin-a-nafta-ale-vyrazne-vedou-244690

CZ with 3% EV sales in 2023 (3rd lowest in EU, though the two last have 2.9 and 2.7% which is basically the same). Norway is not on the chart cause it is not in EU, but the rate is over 80% for some time. (The rate of EVs to total number of vehicles on the road is over 25% and increasing)

Yes EVs are comparably cheaper in Norway due to the tax system, which removes the price issue. (Though in practice it mostly means people buy better cars than they did before for the same price.)
Still it doesn't change that it can be used to see if all the other EV "issues" are a big problem....and they aren't.

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

[Mirek]

Direct quote:



"Can do" - is able to run or finish.

Nothing about speed.

You know that 1990 group A car would get beaten by 1986 group B car. 2013 Fiesta WRC would get beaten by 2008 Focus WRC on most rallies etc.

Ironically the epic looking and sounding group B car would also get beaten by even WRC car from 2003 on most rallies due to much better suspension and traction.

Speed does only matter inside own class, spectacle matters more. In terms of EVs the car could be more spectacular out of corners especially slow corners but will obviously lose time in faster corners and braking. (Kinda exact opposite of an S2000).

If EV rally car can deliver more spectacle than current Rally2 it won't matter if its only marginally faster. Some 0,5-1s/km faster than current Rally2 should be possible even by your rough numbers.

To make Rally EV spectacular it needs to have much more power even at the expense of much more weight. Not be "similar" to petrol cars. So more like the NitroRX cars than the 360 hp RX2e cars.


With regards to the numbers you don't seem to take away the extra weight of the petrol engine as well as some related bits like center diff and much bigger gearbox. But if we instead assume a bigger battery the weight difference would likely be about the same.

For comparison current Taycan and Ioniq 5N will do over 50 km (over 2 laps) at Nurburgring at max push before the batteries overheat with battery capacity to spare. In a racing car cooling could obviously be increased.

You are cooking a soup of water.

[becher]

Actually I was not very precise there. Recuperation helps greatly with stopping power because it creates torque opposite to the movement of the wheel and doesn't generate any heat on the brakes. That means that it's an additional braking power on top of what the brakes themselves can do.
Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

[becher]

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

Yep the common tax payer is subsidizing luxury BEV SUV for rich people and the manufacturers are even allowed to advertise the cars with the subsidized price. Madness. It's horrible from a social point.

[Mirek]

Well yes, but is that power even usable? I struggle to put it together in english, but if you where to increase the stopping power a lot, wouldn't the braking force be much to high compared to your friction force that the tyres can handle?

Yes because you can brake more while not risking overheating of the brakes. One braking and one stage with hundreds of brakings in close sequence is different thing.

[saco0o]

last weekend v8supercars had one of the best racing ever.
got 25min to do nothing but watch youtube? go for it, you will not regreat!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cr6wz8oLrmM

[mknight]

You are cooking a soup of water.

You were telling lies again and responded by changing the subject. Then when that got pointed out you follow on by random trolling.

Well played.

[mknight]

The EV sales are mostly about government subsidies. Without them it's just a toy for rich people. Subsidies are tax money. Tax money are money paid by every citizen of the state.

Even with subsidies the electric cars are too expensive for majority of state citizens. Due to that far majority of EVs are being bought by wealthy people who don't need these subsidies.

The circle closes with an unfortunate fact that the poor in reality sponsor cars of the rich.

That is completely wrong and a great example how government policy shall never ever look like. Period.

1. In the list of EV market share by country about half of those countries had no subsidies. Including many of those with 20-30% market share. How does that happen in your opinion when it's all about subsidies?

2. For those countries that have subsidies there are many different systems. Most went from general subsidy no matter the price over to price limits where you get lower or no subsidy for more expensive EVs. Usually this happened within a few years of EV sales increasing. So this argument is dimished in most markets.

3. Another point is that if an EV subsidy makes your rich neighbor change his 3L TDI Q7 for Tesla X to drive kids around it might be a net win for the local environment in terms of sound and smell.

[Gregor-y]

Within 10 years there´s not much EV´s sold at all.

Hydrogen engines will rather rule.

Without considering distribution and storage production of hydrogen would need a lot of energy.

Consider the next big energy producers being in geologically active areas like Iceland, Hawaii, east Asia, Nicaragua, Wyoming, and Italy...

[saco0o]

extreme-e is going hydrogen for next season, now under fia's governing body instead of acm (monaco's organization) but i still cant wrap my head around how some claim hydrogen is "cleaner" since you gotta USE ENERGY to split molecules and to store the gas form in a cell. those are two extra steps, for example. (i bet theres more on safety and construction, but eh. its all green washing too, in a way. it is not 'cleaner'. (at least as far as i understand. the same way [street] evs are not cleaner than regular modern cars - unless you keep your ev for 4 years to compensate materials used in construction, extra weight causing more ''damage'' on the roads, etc)

[Rallyper]

Well, in a climate that it is in norway and sweden, i doubt hydrogen is the solution.
Its steam that comes out, you don't need much fantasy to understand how 20.000 cars in the morning and the temperature is below 0 will "adjust" the griplevel on the road.

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

Haha, that I never heard before. :)

[Rallyper]

Without considering distribution and storage production of hydrogen would need a lot of energy.

Consider the next big energy producers being in geologically active areas like Iceland, Hawaii, east Asia, Nicaragua, Wyoming, and Italy...

For sure. You are absolutely right. But generating hydrogen with nuclear should be very much more environmental efficient, tha manufacturing EV batteries.

You heard about Northvolt problems?

[saco0o]

haha jesus fck, no joke. i was riding my bike, and now theres those byd chinese electric cars here now in my country. one of those almost runned me over! i coulndt hear it comming. jeeeez, so close, im still shaking. haha first thing i thought: "naaah, south american and eastern europeans fans will all die on stages with these silent cars" hahahah

[denkimi]

extreme-e is going hydrogen for next season, now under fia's governing body instead of acm (monaco's organization) but i still cant wrap my head around how some claim hydrogen is "cleaner" since you gotta USE ENERGY to split molecules and to store the gas form in a cell. those are two extra steps, for example. (i bet theres more on safety and construction, but eh. its all green washing too, in a way. it is not 'cleaner'. (at least as far as i understand. the same way [street] evs are not cleaner than regular modern cars - unless you keep your ev for 4 years to compensate materials used in construction, extra weight causing more ''damage'' on the roads, etc)
You could overbuild nuclear power, or even solar+wind, and use the leftover power to generate hydrogen.

Today a lot of electricity is already being wasted because it's produced at the wrong time. Turning it into hydrogen to power cars could be a good solution.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

haha jesus fck, no joke. i was riding my bike, and now theres those byd chinese electric cars here now in my country. one of those almost runned me over! i coulndt hear it comming. jeeeez, so close, im still shaking. haha first thing i thought: "naaah, south american and eastern europeans fans will all die on stages with these silent cars" hahahah

Nothing new, but I thought there would be some warning noise by now. I was nearly hit by a silent Prius years ago.

[Mirek]

You were telling lies again and responded by changing the subject. Then when that got pointed out you follow on by random trolling.

Well played.

Enjoy your time. I'm not interested in your way of discussion. I just want to say that I was expecting a lot more from you than a completely empty set of impressions and accusations.

[saco0o]

interesting. Jaguar is shutting down most of its car's production to shift its focus to just one electric suv. i read they will do this also to increase profit, instead of making several different cars. they will expand its variety again later in the future with only evs, but it looks the main idea for the next years is to produce just one model. idk how much they can save by not offering different models for buyers, since people have different taste, but eh. i like the brand. they are leading formula-e this season. anyway (...) probably no reason to think inflation and decline in sells will push every brand into this direction, eh?

[WRCStan]

Reads like they are upgrading their production facilities in the meantime for new models on new platforms. Other than that, there's not much to read into it IMO.

[saco0o]

https://youtu.be/UHctk-oiU5k?feature=shared
re-asking... is this some joke or for real?.haha

[Rallyper]

https://youtu.be/UHctk-oiU5k?feature=shared
re-asking... is this some joke or for real?.haha

Yepp.

[Morte66]

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

[WRCStan]

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

I would, assuming I have the desire to play at the top table. I already have an FIA Rally2 title.

Good question.

[saco0o]

two latvian rallycross drivers doing the super special stage. man i love these cars, for real
https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=7450877421684425

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A "what if?" as a bit of fun...

If you were Yohan Rossel (good on tarmac), and Hyundai (short of a 3rd driver for tarmac) offered you some WRC1 fourth car outings on tarmac rounds, would you take them if your contract with Citroen allowed?

I think I wouldn't. It would mean him not competing in his best rallies in WRC2 where he is leading the championship.

Definitely. You have to take any such chances as you may never get another.

[Eli]

Since they are passing there, I though you would might like to know the Tour de France is now heading to the Col de Turini (& they already passed Col de Braus today).

[deephouse]

Wow, can't believe it. Tavares, CEO of Stellantis is claiming that they will close or sell brands that are not profitable. And those who are mentioned are Lancia... And right when they show interest in rallying again. Even if they sell them, I think they don't have a chance of surviving. And how would that impact their only car which is practically a 208/Corsa?

[WRCStan]

They won't sell these brands but they would mothball them as Chinese brands take over the production facilities.

[focus206]

Wow, can't believe it. Tavares, CEO of Stellantis is claiming that they will close or sell brands that are not profitable. And those who are mentioned are Lancia... And right when they show interest in rallying again. Even if they sell them, I think they don't have a chance of surviving. And how would that impact their only car which is practically a 208/Corsa?

Well, isn't Lancia already "closed" since a while? Puppet company that sells only one car in Italy, where nobody cares about the Ypsilon, neither old nor new.

[deephouse]

Well, isn't Lancia already "closed" since a while? Puppet company that sells only one car in Italy, where nobody cares about the Ypsilon, neither old nor new.

I was referring to the news that they are testing a new Rally4 car. And their rich history and success in this sport. They simply can't die.

[focus206]

I was referring to the news that they are testing a new Rally4 car. And their rich history and success in this sport. They simply can't die.

CEOs rarely care about rallying and racing past success, unfortunately... already FIAT decided to let Lancia almost disappear, so I'm not surprised Stellantis would say that.

[Morte66]

What, if anything, do you get for winning "WRC2 Challenger"?

[WRCStan]

What, if anything, do you get for winning "WRC2 Challenger"?

You get to pay for your own trip to the gala where you collect your trophy.

[240RS]

Jari Marti Latvala's pace on this Friday morning cannot be doing the regular WRC2 front runners a favour.

With the exception of Oliver Solberg, Latvala seems to be coping with the pace of the rest comfortably. Begs the question, just how far are the pack in their development. Jari may be a a former frontman, but he isn't anywhere near what he was and yet appears to be holding his own with remarkable ease. Food for thought.

[denkimi]

Jari Marti Latvala's pace on this Friday morning cannot be doing the regular WRC2 front runners a favour.

With the exception of Oliver Solberg, Latvala seems to be coping with the pace of the rest comfortably. Begs the question, just how far are the pack in their development. Jari may be a a former frontman, but he isn't anywhere near what he was and yet appears to be holding his own with remarkable ease. Food for thought.
but he is driving his car in his team. he has more resources than any other driver, he can drive and test unlimited.

[Morte66]

It is a little ironic that Sami Pajari, the obvious competition, is in WRC1.

When the season started I wondered whether Sami might win this "WRC2 Challenger" thing, but he looks like a contender for WRC2 overall. Missing Finland, his home rally, in WRC2 can't help with that. [Of course, the WRC1 rally is a big deal as well.]

[deephouse]

It is a little ironic that Sami Pajari, the obvious competition, is in WRC1.

When the season started I wondered whether Sami might win this "WRC2 Challenger" thing, but he looks like a contender for WRC2 overall. Missing Finland, his home rally, in WRC2 can't help with that. [Of course, the WRC1 rally is a big deal as well.]

It's maybe one and only shot he will be given, so why not. Everyone would go for it, no matter what car, bad or good, worst or best. In the past the title in lower categories proved nothing to top teams in the sports. Many people were overlooked. If there was justice in the world, then half of the grid wouldn't be there right now and those with pure talent would fight, not those with fat wallets and daddy connections.

[Eli]

Loving the rally discussions here! What are everyone's thoughts on the latest WRC season? Any favorite moments or drivers standing out for you? Also, has anyone tried out any new rally simulators lately?

Definitely one of the oddest seasons I recall (excluding 2020), the mix of the really annoying and complex (and stupid) scoring system coupled with the fact that Toyota are now using the same strategy as Hyundai in their line-up has made this season quite a bit different; add to that a run of 7(!) straight gravel events, has made this championship on the one hand very close but on the other hand it also feels very artificial imho, not to take anything from the drivers but it just doesn’t feel right. Also, I must admit the fact that a win is no longer the win, so you don’t get the most points for it…don’t like it, imagine if in any other motorsport discipline, say Verstappen or Hamilton or Marquez would get less points than anyone who’s finished after them…
As for simulators, still waiting on news for the ‘24 edition of EA Rally (still hate them for taking the ‘Dirt’ name), as I haven’t bothered with last year’s game.

[Pfei]

As for simulators, still waiting on news for the ‘24 edition of EA Rally (still hate them for taking the ‘Dirt’ name), as I haven’t bothered with last year’s game.

EA already announced that the 2024 season will come as DLC starting in October.

[Eli]

EA already announced that the 2024 season will come as DLC starting in October.

Thanks for the update, managed to miss that somehow.

[DrLill]

Loving the rally discussions here! What are everyone's thoughts on the latest WRC season? Any favorite moments or drivers standing out for you? Also, has anyone tried out any new rally simulators lately?

I was quite sceptical about the new points system at the beginning of the year, but tbh, without it, the Sundays would have been quite miserable to follow. It actually creates battles and a reason to push for the drives, hence better entertainment for us, the viewers. I admit however, that the value of being on the podium has decreased significantly and that is a bit sad. However, I would still prefer the new PS to the old one.

In general, the lack of cars is worrisome and at times I have been in total disbelief how incompetent the live coverage has been..

Favourite moment: as always the first night stages of Monte Carlo..brings jitters 😄 always as the long wait is finally over. Poland stages (at least those that went ahead) were also great.

The most standing out driver for me has to be Fourmaux. Did not expect such stability and speed from him considering his history. Nice to see.

[Jarek Z]

Loving the rally discussions here! What are everyone's thoughts on the latest WRC season? Any favorite moments or drivers standing out for you?

The favorite moment? Martins Sesks' performance in Poland and Latvia. Nothing else compares.

[Morte66]

My favourite moment of the year to date was Fourmaux's power stage in Croatia.

[CeskyOndra]

Loving the rally discussions here! What are everyone's thoughts on the latest WRC season? Any favorite moments or drivers standing out for you? Also, has anyone tried out any new rally simulators lately?

For me, it is one of the most exciting season ever. I would compare it with 2018 and 2019. Everyone is so close to eachother and there are nice battles to follow, especially on Sunday..

New points system unfortunately degrades the victory and the podium, but still, as someone said there already, I would prefer this one than the older one.. So much excitement.

Favorite moment for me is Thursday night in Monte Carlo and Neuville's outstanding performance here.

Fourmaux and Ford's reliability have to be the best suprise for us, I didn't expect them to bring so many podiums.

[saco0o]

2554

images we wish were taken at a wrc stage

[becher]

F1 journalist Peter Windsor made a video about his run on the shakedown in Finland with Neuville.

He's quite good at analysing driving styles in circuit racing, and tries to dissect how they drive in rallying.

The guy likes to hear himself talk, but it could still be of interest to some.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ub2Rs7qCZ6A

[saco0o]

anyone following the australian championship?
the half hour sunday highlights is on for the latest round https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grs8EQunXAE

[deephouse]

https://www.blackbookmotorsport.com/features/world-rally-championship-wrc-sustainability-strategy/?utm_campaign=Blackbook&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8YreVns1k-SjzUHQwJCSugauV_ZHXME_VvlwbPt-Vd1yBmbSifCt3rHsL0RXy2-VBrrZ4eJFlUvqfwIKFFQ-OUcjxR9FTSHdXKDY0TcsE7tb9NNOY&_hsmi=2&utm_content=2&utm_source=hs_email

interesting

[WRCStan]

https://www.blackbookmotorsport.com/features/world-rally-championship-wrc-sustainability-strategy/?utm_campaign=Blackbook&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-8YreVns1k-SjzUHQwJCSugauV_ZHXME_VvlwbPt-Vd1yBmbSifCt3rHsL0RXy2-VBrrZ4eJFlUvqfwIKFFQ-OUcjxR9FTSHdXKDY0TcsE7tb9NNOY&_hsmi=2&utm_content=2&utm_source=hs_email

interesting

Has anybody ever heard of a male DEI head/president/officer/employee? I'd like to see the industry stats on that.

[saco0o]

https://www.blackbookmotorsport.com/features/world-rally-championship-wrc-sustainability-strategy/?utm_campaign=blackbook&utm_medium=email&_hsenc=p2anqtz-8yrevns1k-sjzuhqwjcsugauv_zhxme_vvlwbpt-vd1ybmbsifct3rhsl0rxy2-vbrrz4ejfluvqfwikffq-oucjxr9ftshdxkdy0tcse7tb9nnoy&_hsmi=2&utm_content=2&utm_source=hs_email

interesting

"p.r. Bs"

[Mary Mary]

What happened to that European series proposed by the Portuguese before the start of the year?

[saco0o]

any bike racing fan here? have u seen what happened to ktm? 2 billion bucks in losses, jeeez. shutting everything down, laying loads of workers off, ending the racing teams (husqvarna is gone, gasgas is probably gone tho some say they may keep it for one more year), ktm itself is kinda going to be fully paid for redbull from now on (at least in off road).
ktm is shifting their "production" to india and china market, with the kind of bikes that they use there (not off road bikes)
is this the begining of something bigger in the economy?

[saco0o]

does wrc have a "fan cam" thing too? where you can send your footage of possible crashes or some pics? the british championship have this. interesting
https://britishrallychampionship.co.uk/fancam/?fbclid=IwY2xjawE-8RZleHRuA2FlbQIxMAABHeR_f_1-4ZSqC3ugAtD5VtsOC6aTH5AUf7ILtcygAs7BmP3dL7p0yDFAlQ _aem_s0I3_AAKk4orgmbwH1sUPg

[Sal yet again]

https://porterpress.co.uk/products/prodrive-40-years-of-success#:~:text=After%2040%20years%20of%20success, and%20competitive%20arena%2

One for the book collectors. A celebration of Prodrive's 40th anniversary.