Help to save the electronic cigarette!

[rallye-vid]

Hi there,

the EU is gonna make some changes to the tobacco guideline next time. Some of the changes affects the electronic cigarette - in not a great way.

A german e-cigarette community started an online petition to stop the new EU tobacco guideline.

Please sign to save the e-cigarette!

Here are some translations of the petition in your language: Petition - Interessengemeinschaft E-Dampfen (http://ig-ed.org/projekte/petition/)
Here is the link to the online petition: http://www.change.org/de/Petitionen/e-zigarette-in-gefahr

Cheers, thanks & good vaping!

[Mark]

Please explain what you mean? "Some changes" doesn't say anything.

[rallye-vid]

Hi Mark,

here is the english translation:


On 19 December 2012 the European Commission published a proposal for the revision of the Tobacco Products Directive. In this document the first time the e-cigarette, was treated as a nicotine-containing product (short: NCP).

They want to standardise a limit of 2 milligrams per consumption unit as well as a limitation of the absolute concentration of nicotine to 4 milligrams per millilitre.
All products beyond this would have to be approved as a pharmaceutical product. So, at a maximum concentration of 4 milligrams per milliliter, the unit is only allowed to contain
a maximum of half a millilitre. What does that mean for us, the consumers?

Currently available nicotine-containing liquids contain at least 6 milligrams per millilitre. Higher concentrations of up to 36 milligrams per millilitre are common.
The average consumer uses about 4 millilitres per day. Assuming that people switching to the e-cigarette tend to use a higher concentration of 18 milligrams per millilitre this results in 72 milligrams of nicotine per day.

With freely available products in accordance to the directive with consistent consumption only 16 milligrams would be possible - just less than 1/5.
Conversely the consumption would have to be raised to 18 millilitres in order to maintain level. This would parallel 36 freely available units.

But not only the liquid itself would be affected. The equipment is concerned too. The popular eGo for example holds at least 0.8 ml, more efficient vaporisers even up to 6 millilitres of liquid.
Thus more than one unit must be used to hold up the intended operation of the equipment in any case - this of course is based on the assumption that liquid is sold in fluid units of 0.5 millilitres.

Viewed factually this proposal is tantamount to a ban on vaping as we know it. Stopping the smoking of tobacco, maintaining the ritual as well as the supply of nicotine will no longer be
possible. Only a totally unsatisfactory rest of what we look upon as our alternative to tobacco smoking will be left over.

Why are nicotine-containing products added to the tobacco directive if there is no evidence of harm?

Why are nicotine-containing products only allowed below the nicotine limit of drugs for smoking cessation ?

Why is an agent limit defined for a “medicinal product by presentation” in the tobacco directive?

Why is there no attempt to harmonise the different treatments concerning nicotine containing products in each country in the appropriate directives?

We demand a regulation of nicotine-containing products as a luxury food apart the tasks of tobacco control. Also the reference to the pharmaceutical directive is unsatisfactory.
Replacing the consumption of nicotine from burning tobacco by the consumption of nicotine from vaporised liquids does not constitute medical treatment,
since nicotine can not have any medicinal effects against tobacco addiction.

We demand a regulation in consideration of the market established since 2006 and in consideration of about 7 million people in Europe who found an alternative for themselves in enjoying nicotine using the e-cigarette.

We demand to acknowledge in health-care politics that consuming nicotine with electronic smoking is considerably less harmful than tobacco smoking,
thus relieving the strain on public health-care and strengthening the European public health.


cheers

[Knock-on]

The EU is corrupt and will do whatever the Pharma Lobbiests pay them to do.

Take Snus for example. Allowed in Sweden by EU dispensation and strangly Sweden has the lowest EU rates of Lung Cancer than any other EU country, yet is banned in the rest of the EU. Madness!!!

NRT's (nicotine replacement therapy) have a diabolical success rate for quitting smoking and some like Champix are linked to Mental Health issues and Suicide, yet rake in Millions for GSK, Pizer etc. As these companies spend about 1/2 a billion euros per year on Lobbying the EU, so they are Championed by the Law makers. Disgrace!!!

Then we have eCigs. Most studies have acknowledged the benefits over smoking with a figure of 99% better for you being commonly bandied around. Claims that as a smoking ceasation aid, success rates of 45% are not only claimed but appear to be bourne out by personal observation. Yet the EU seems hell bent on banning them (or at least until GSK and Pizer bring out a expensive, regulated version). Lunacy!!!

With the EU it's always the same old story. Follow the money :(

[donKey jote]

Ban them I say ! :p

[rallye-vid]

The EU is corrupt and will do whatever the Pharma Lobbiests pay them to do.

Yes, sad but true..

Well, i was smoking for about 17 years.. I found then the e-cigarette and stopped smoking - 1,5 years right now.
And i don't want to start to smoke again.... But i probably will if they ban the e-cigarette.

At least i can say i was trying to stop the EU making something. Better than don't do anything at all ..

cheers

[donKey jote]

Yes,
sad indeed...
next you can all blame the EU for your nicotine addictions :laugh:

[Knock-on]

Don't be a Donkey, Donkey.

Smoking is a terrible addiction but if the EU wanted to do something important, they would ban all nicotine products.

Banning or restricting e-cigs is purely cynical and machivellian.

[donKey jote]

if the EU wanted to do something important, they would ban all nicotine products.


I wish they would. (The fun you would all have ranting about EU gone mad too ! )

They can start with e-cigs though. I for one don't wish to breathe in anyone's second hand e-dampf. :mark:

[schmenke]

Nicosteam

[gadjo_dilo]

Don't think I'll sign the petition. My house is near a Vapers store. During hot summer days I can't stay with open windows because of the horrible smell coming from there.

[Robinho]

The EU is corrupt and will do whatever the Pharma Lobbiests pay them to do.

Take Snus for example. Allowed in Sweden by EU dispensation and strangly Sweden has the lowest EU rates of Lung Cancer than any other EU country, yet is banned in the rest of the EU. Madness!!!

NRT's (nicotine replacement therapy) have a diabolical success rate for quitting smoking and some like Champix are linked to Mental Health issues and Suicide, yet rake in Millions for GSK, Pizer etc. As these companies spend about 1/2 a billion euros per year on Lobbying the EU, so they are Championed by the Law makers. Disgrace!!!

Then we have eCigs. Most studies have acknowledged the benefits over smoking with a figure of 99% better for you being commonly bandied around. Claims that as a smoking ceasation aid, success rates of 45% are not only claimed but appear to be bourne out by personal observation. Yet the EU seems hell bent on banning them (or at least until GSK and Pizer bring out a expensive, regulated version). Lunacy!!!

With the EU it's always the same old story. Follow the money :(

How would Snus be linked to lung cancer? it's chewing tobacco, and i'd expect to see pretty high incidences of mouth and throat cancer and ulcers in Sweden compared to the rest of the EU. maybe it provides an alternative to smoking, hence the lesser rates of lung cancer, but its by no means without its own health risks

[Knock-on]

Oral use of Swedish moist snuff (snus) and risk for cancer of the mouth, lung, and pancreas in male construction workers: a retrospective cohort study : The Lancet (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2807%2960678-3/abstract)

No increased risk of Oral cancer either but small increase in Pancreatic cancer.

Still a hell of a lot safer than smoking.

[Robinho]

From my time in Sweden I understood that there were other oral problems associated, primarily dental, but avoiding the big C is definitely a plus

Sent from the moon using a shoe

[donKey jote]

Still a hell of a lot safer than smoking.

so is not smoking :p

[Knock-on]

From my time in Sweden I understood that there were other oral problems associated, primarily dental, but avoiding the big C is definitely a plus

Sent from the moon using a shoe

I don't know about these days but many years ago when I was chatting to some Swedes about it, I noticed the effects you mention. Where they pop them under the lip against the gum, it would rot the gum back on the contact area after years of prolonged use.

Not a recommendation to take them up but as I said, a much better alternative to smoking if you wnt to move away from cigarettes.

[Knock-on]

so is not smoking :p

I agree donks but what value to the thread does comments like that bring.

Every adult smoker knows that Cigs are horrid. They are full of scores of poisons and carcinogenic ingredients that will, in all likelyhood, kill you. They are expensive, antisocial, make you and your breath smell, harm other around you in a closed environment and have a plethora of other health issues besides the big C.

Saying it would be better to not smoke is like saying society will be better with no crime. True but pointless.

What eCigs do is offer smokers a way of breaking the cycle of smoking to something 99% less harmful and hopefully provide a step to breaking the addiction and live healthier lives. Surely that's to be encouraged, isn't it?

[BDunnell]

I agree donks but what value to the thread does comments like that bring.

Well, it's true, for a start.

[BDunnell]

Leaving aside notions of corruption, are there any other reasons for the desire to slap such restrictions on the e-cig?

[donKey jote]

I agree donks but what value to the thread does comments like that bring.
about as much as ranting about the EU and lobbyists, where each individual government is just as much in their hands... why else aren't cigarrettes banned?




What eCigs do is offer smokers a way of breaking the cycle of smoking to something 99% less harmful and hopefully provide a step to breaking the addiction and live healthier lives. Surely that's to be encouraged, isn't it?
Breaking the addiction by taking it pure? Bull**** !

[donKey jote]

Leaving aside notions of corruption, are there any other reasons for the desire to slap such restrictions on the e-cig?

It needs to be regulated. Similar I guess to herbal concoctions to help you lose weight.
What exactly goes in them, how much, how much is safe? Nobody knows.
Are kids allowed use them (as a gateway to smoking perhaps) ?

[donKey jote]

There's nothing more frustrating than hearing someone say to a smoker 'just give up'.
Sure it's frustrating. It takes will power.

[donKey jote]

What else does it take? Sure it's not at all easy for some, but everyone I know who's stopped smoking has managed without e-cigs.

Next we can wean alcoholics off alcohol by giving them alcopops... after all, they're 99% healthier than hard liquor. And moan about the EU restricting their sales while we're at it.

[Mark]

To say you can't give up is BS. Just stop FFS. Smokers are a bunch of selfish (expletives)

[BDunnell]

To say you can't give up is BS. Just stop FFS. Smokers are a bunch of selfish (expletives)

No, it really isn't as simple as that. To some it might be, but not all. I think the fact of nicotine being addictive is well enough proven now.

[schmenke]

My mother-in-law was a heavy smoker for most of her life, even rolling her own cigs and smoking them unfiltered! A couple of years ago she was diagnosed with perforated ulcers, requiring at least a couple of operations. The doctors said she need to make drastic lifestyle changes or else the problems would continue with even more severe consequences.

Upon recovering from the procedures, she chucked her last pack of cigs in the bin and quit smoking, cold turkey. No patch, no e-cigs, no substitutes whatsoever. Hasn’t touched one since. She’s 66 years old now and doing great.

[Knock-on]

To say you can't give up is BS. Just stop FFS. Smokers are a bunch of selfish (expletives)

Yep, Alcholics shouldn't touch a drop, Gamblers need to keep out of bookies, Bulimics should stop throwing up, Anorexics need a good feed etc.

Addiction is a horrible thing and anything to help people overcome it is to be encouraged I think. I really can't understand some peoples aversion to eCigs compared to smoking.

[Mark]

Can't see a problem with eCigs really. No smoke, so no affect on others, so it's all good.

[BDunnell]

Can't see a problem with eCigs really. No smoke, so no affect on others, so it's all good.

But have they been properly tested?

[Mark]

Proper cigarettes have been tested, they are very bad for you. Is this going to be much worse?

[BDunnell]

Proper cigarettes have been tested, they are very bad for you. Is this going to be much worse?

I don't know anything about the testing it's gone through, hence the question.

[CaptainRaiden]

I've got to agree with everything donks has said in this thread. Will power is all it takes. And maybe a good enough reason. :D I smoked for 10 years, 20 a day easily, and five years ago one day just quit along with my wife. There were no health issues, but we wanted to quit, and we did it because we made a promise to each other. The first week was drowsiness hell, but then it just became normal with occasional cravings. The cravings lessened over the next several months to the point where we started to hate the cigarette smell.

My dad smoked for 25 years. I printed one of these out - Stop Smoking Benefits Timetable (http://whyquit.com/whyquit/a_benefits_time_table.html) and stuck it on the wall next to where he kept his cigs and cigars. He quit within a week.

The problem is people making smoking addiction seem dramatic. It's just like any other addiction, easy to break if you have the will.

As for the topic, eCigs should be available as an option for people wanting to quit. I see no reason why. There are much worse things people can put into their bodies, available legally in supermarkets and drug stores.

[donKey jote]

Imagine the money we would make as consultants if it was that easy lol.

For the immense majority of people I know who have given up, it really wasn't that dramatic.

[donKey jote]

Glad you think so lol.

[donKey jote]

I admit the immense majority of people I know who haven't been able to give it up, despite pretending to try to, do tend to make a drama about it though :p .

[donKey jote]

In THAT weather ? :crazy: :p

[jombag59]

if they ban electronic cigarettes, many will make protests.

[Mark]

Really?

[Knock-on]

More testing needs to go into eCigs as there is little comprehensive testing that has taken place. I'm not sure I'm in favour of regulation but a voluntary code detailing strengths and ingredients would be a good step.

Obviously giving up smoking is the goal for most adult smokers and I applaud anyone that has given up with willpower alone or any other NRT treatments out there. However, why any ex-smoker or non-smoker would discourage the use of eCigs is beyond me. Smoking is legal for people over 18 and it's a horrible, disgusting addiction that successive governments have failed to effectivly deal with. Over 100,000 people each year die of smoking related illness and 20% of 15 year olds are regular smokers. Surely, the more smokers that kick the habit in favour of eCigs and eventually, hopefully, will quit completely will lessen these statistics.

Why would people object to something that is reportedly 99% safer than smoking, poses no danger or discomfort to those around them and helps people quit smoking? As I take a pull on my eCig and emit a harmless, virtually odourless vapour, I'm overjoyed that I have avoided yet another cigarette and hope other smokers in the future have the same choice.

[BDunnell]

However, why any ex-smoker or non-smoker would discourage the use of eCigs is beyond me.

I agree completely with your sentiments as expressed elsewhere in the above post, but, if I was still in the process of giving up smoking, I'd rather use a product that had been fully tested first.

[Knock-on]

I agree completely with your sentiments as expressed elsewhere in the above post, but, if I was still in the process of giving up smoking, I'd rather use a product that had been fully tested first.

I know what you mean but what does years of testing prove? Afterall, aren't cigarettes tested?

With a code of conduct, you can ensure suppliers sign up to a standard and that the product is not hiding nasty ingredients.

Unfortunatly, this will not suit the Pharma's or the EU sponges they bribe. (woops, I ment Lobby ;) )

[BDunnell]

I know what you mean but what does years of testing prove? Afterall, aren't cigarettes tested?

Well, as a result we know they're dangerous. Do we know this about e-cigs?

[Knock-on]

I have no problem with ongoing testing. There have, as I said, already been limited testing and the longer these products are around, the more conclusive the testing will become.

However, the potential benefits of the product far outweigh the alternative and I would hate to see testing being used as a white elephant to withdraw eCigs by the EU.

[donKey jote]

Why would people object to something that is reportedly 99% safer than smoking, poses no danger or discomfort to those around them and helps people quit smoking? As I take a pull on my eCig and emit a harmless, virtually odourless vapour, I'm overjoyed that I have avoided yet another cigarette and hope other smokers in the future have the same choice.

I'm fine with your post Knockie, it's your addiction not mine :p
So long as you either prove your vapour is harmless or you only inhale it where you'd also be allowed to smoke it. :)

I've had a couple of eejuts at work prancing around the non-smoking areas just to show off their new toys and get a reaction from the anti-smoking nazis ( ;) ). They only lasted a week before going back to cigarettes btw, it turns out the amount of liquid nicotine they needed to mantain their highs was too expensive compared to tobacco :dozey:

[BlueShift]

My brother uses eCigs all the time. He doesn't smell amymore so I like them lol