Retail Woes

[SGWilko]

With the demise of Comet last year, and the announcement today that Jessups was in administration from today, who will be the next big name to fall?

I also note that Virgin in France (megastores) is gone too now.....

How do physical retailers compete with online retailers?

[SGWilko]

Well, given the overheads related to a physical store, logic dictates that they'd 'have' to charge more than the online retailers.

However - I've used the Comet 'click and collect' in the past which beat their own store price!

Maybe the current lack of finance is resulting in a natural sorting of the 'chaff from the wheat'.

I see HMV as the next potential victim.

[BDunnell]

Maybe the current lack of finance is resulting in a natural sorting of the 'chaff from the wheat'.

Perhaps, but Jessops was very much the 'wheat' in the days before digital photography, which, I'd argue, is what's killed it.

More generally, I believe there needs to be serious consideration given on the part of central government, councils and communities as to the future of British high streets as more shops, inevitably, bite the dust. How are they going to look in 20 years' time? What can be done to lessen the negative impact in terms of empty shops, etc, rendering the centres of certain towns desperately sad-looking places to be?

[SGWilko]

digital photography, which, I'd argue, is what's killed it.


I quite agree. However, my wife used to work for a photographer, and the mind boggles as to how they survived before digital photography. The cost of film alone, and the lack of ability to view instantly the shot taken. I guess it has removed a lot of skill from the art of the photographer.

As the cost of food/living increases, the appeal of cheaper cuts of meat may well become popular again, and we may the see the rise of the local butcher again. But what else should be in the high street?

Chemist, Butcher, Greengrocer, Post Office, Bakery?

[SGWilko]

Comet also relied heavily on stupid people gullible enough to buy extended warranties on electrical products. I think people became wise as to their rights and Comet realised they had to rise prices to counter it. Unfortunately for them people were going to rivals (not just online) who didn't have a '10 mile radius' price match policy and would match online retailers.

True, but electrical goods are becoming throw away these days. You can get 32" tv's for under £200! The cost of a warranty over the 1year manufacturer guarantee would have to be small to make it appealing, as within a year the better spec stuff will have dropped in price.

DSG have survived by making Dixons online only, and amalgemating Currys with PCW. Plus they flogged Freeserve no doubt for a killing.....

[BDunnell]

Excellent topic, by the way.



How do physical retailers compete with online retailers?

My thoughts on this may turn into something of a ramble, but here goes. One primary means of doing this is, surely, to make one's premises somewhere people actively want to go. The small, mainly food-related, businesses I frequent in my area are all examples of this — nice surroundings, nice (but not unduly expensive) product ranges, truly friendly staff. Easier for smaller places to do, of course, but I believe there are wider lessons there. No way would I forsake any of these businesses for supermarkets, let alone online retailers, such is the extremely pleasant experience of doing my shopping there. Now I have a good selection of such places in my vicinity, I rarely ever use supermarkets for food purchases. I much enjoy going out to my local greengrocers, butcher, baker and deli — it's never a chore, they're nice shops to visit, the staff are welcoming, the produce is excellent and they're hardly any pricier (if at all) than anywhere else. And, of course, it's a good reason to get out of the house when working from home, something I believe will become increasingly common in the years ahead.

Some might argue that not every area can be expected, realistically, to sustain a range of good-quality independent outlets. This is probably true, but this is not to say that small shops will all be forced out. Far from it, in fact. I believe that, if they're clever at building up and sustaining a loyal clientele — critically, not an entirely aging one, for example through use of social media — smaller shops need not only survive, but also thrive. This even goes for those operating in sectors where competition comes from global online retailers like Amazon. You can't beat the joy of exploring a really good secondhand bookshop, for example. This is not something that can simply be replaced by online purchasing.

There are probably many more towns in the UK like that from which I originally hail — where the local populace has come mainly to consist of people on lower incomes, where supermarkets offer everything most people seem to want, and where almost all the good independent (as opposed to crap independent, of which there are still many, along with charity shops) outlets have closed or moved away, because there just aren't the more discerning shoppers to sustain them. I do hope this trend can be reversed, but it will be difficult, and I think it will need a more pro-active approach on the part of local authorities and the like.

[BDunnell]

I quite agree. However, my wife used to work for a photographer, and the mind boggles as to how they survived before digital photography. The cost of film alone, and the lack of ability to view instantly the shot taken.

As a photographer myself since before the digital era, I can safely say that it was just what people did.

Regarding Jessops specifically, it and its like were 'one-stop shops'. You went in to buy your film, your equipment, get your films processed and so forth. Now, I don't think I've been in a Jessops branch for, probably, close on a decade. My purchases of camera-related equipment have all been online (or from the physical outlets now run by some specialist online retailers, which also seem very popular and worthwhile). A different form of purchasing for a different form of hobby.

I wonder how much, by comparison with its other offerings, the demise of photo processing hurt Jessops' business?


I guess it has removed a lot of skill from the art of the photographer.

I don't necessarily agree with that. Digital photography has certainly allowed a lot more people to become, or think of themselves as, photographers, but the skills required are definitely just different, not less.



As the cost of food/living increases, the appeal of cheaper cuts of meat may well become popular again, and we may the see the rise of the local butcher again. But what else should be in the high street?

Chemist, Butcher, Greengrocer, Post Office, Bakery?

Depends on the high street, as I've said in my longer previous post.

[SGWilko]

I also see the re-emergence of the independants - and thus the rise of the high street - as an education issue. Not as in schooling, but education of the mindset. The personal touch of the local butcher, the community spirit if you like.

It is all too easy to do everything in the one supermarket - and maybe the 'lifes too short' mindset of the working family has led to the proliferation of the supermarket.

I remember when almost every high street had a Dewhusrt. The co-operative was also a stallwort - the department style store, where you could do your banking too.

Maybe it is nostalgia, and we should accept change for what it is?

[SGWilko]

I don't necessarily agree with that. Digital photography has certainly allowed a lot more people to become, or think of themselves as, photographers, but the skills required are definitely just different, not less.

OK, What I was getting at was that, when you were limited to the number of shots you could take due to film (knowing the lengthy process of developing the negs etc and cost etc) the skill of the photographer in getting the right shot with less presses of the shutter is now lost with the ability to take shot after shot with no real overhead other than storage.

[BDunnell]

I also see the re-emergence of the independants - and thus the rise of the high street - as an education issue. Not as in schooling, but education of the mindset. The personal touch of the local butcher, the community spirit if you like.

I do hope so. I also hope there's greater awareness relating to food in particular — the need not to use pesticides



It is all too easy to do everything in the one supermarket - and maybe the 'lifes too short' mindset of the working family has led to the proliferation of the supermarket.

I'm quite sure you're right, but I, for one, find the really big ones hugely stressful places in which to shop. There may also be no real choice in some areas.



I remember when almost every high street had a Dewhusrt. The co-operative was also a stallwort - the department style store, where you could do your banking too.

Maybe it is nostalgia, and we should accept change for what it is?

In those cases, yes, it is nostalgia — and I'm rather glad to see the back of them, since I view the likes of Dewhurst and the Co-Op entirely separately from the really good independent stores. There were, and in the case of the Co-Op are, many better outlets around, even amongst the supermarkets, let alone the independents. If the future of the high street is less quantity but more quality, I'm all for it. There are signs this may be the case.

[BDunnell]

OK, What I was getting at was that, when you were limited to the number of shots you could take due to film (knowing the lengthy process of developing the negs etc and cost etc) the skill of the photographer in getting the right shot with less presses of the shutter is now lost with the ability to take shot after shot with no real overhead other than storage.

Possibly, but I'd argue that if you were a bad or mediocre photographer with print film or slides you'll still be a bad or mediocre photographer with digital. And, it must be said that digital opens up so many more opportunities to try new things or be innovative that this far outweighs the factor you describe.

[SGWilko]

I do hope so. I also hope there's greater awareness relating to food in particular — the need not to use pesticides.

Ah yes. In the last 3 years - since we've had more than a postage stamp for a garden - we (wife and I) have set some of the garden aside to grow our own produce. With some luck I must say. Strawberries, Raspberries, Leeks, Onions, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Pumpkins, beans and sweetcorn.

This has led to us throwing a lot less food away, just due to general awareness. We throw a lot less food waste in the bin, as we have a composter. Also, we now freeze a lot of home made stock, gravy etc. We also cook bigger portions of, for example, lasagne mince and soups, so we can freeze it for another day. Much better use of ingredients that way.

Now, we still waste a lot, but we are getting a lot better. The kids pallets have got more adventurous too.

We also buy some cheaper meat cuts for pies and stews. And it is here that I see the role of the TV chefs to help educate us and to point us to local butchers etc to buy locally sourced produce.

Whilst my wife will shop at the supermarkets - and I will admit that feeding the kids appetites this is a cost conscious resaon for doing so. But it is a bit catch 22 - with no local independants within short reach of each other, the supermarket will always appeal. Local garden centres are good for farmshops etc though.

Sorry, we are veering a little OT, but relevant I think!

[SGWilko]

Possibly, but I'd argue that if you were a bad or mediocre photographer with print film or slides you'll still be a bad or mediocre photographer with digital. And, it must be said that digital opens up so many more opportunities to try new things or be innovative that this far outweighs the factor you describe.

You can tell probably that I am no photographer! I did do a course at school, which I am appalled to recall was in the days before digital cameras :eek:

[BDunnell]

Sorry, we are veering a little OT, but relevant I think!

Oh, absolutely it is, being all intimately connected with the development of shopping in the UK.


Ah yes. In the last 3 years - since we've had more than a postage stamp for a garden - we (wife and I) have set some of the garden aside to grow our own produce. With some luck I must say. Strawberries, Raspberries, Leeks, Onions, Potatoes, Tomatoes, Pumpkins, beans and sweetcorn.

This has led to us throwing a lot less food away, just due to general awareness. We throw a lot less food waste in the bin, as we have a composter. Also, we now freeze a lot of home made stock, gravy etc. We also cook bigger portions of, for example, lasagne mince and soups, so we can freeze it for another day. Much better use of ingredients that way.

Now, we still waste a lot, but we are getting a lot better. The kids pallets have got more adveturous too.

We also buy some cheaper meat cuts for pies and stews. And it is here that I see the role of the TV chefs to help educate us and to point us to local butchers etc to buy locally sourced produce.

All excellent.



Whilst my wife will shop at the supermarkets - and I will admit that feeding the kids appetites this is a cost conscious resaon for doing so. But it is a bit catch 22 - with no local independants within short reach of each other, the supermarket will always appeal.

Of course.

I actually forgot to finish the first sentence of my previous post — I meant also to mention awareness of food transportation as one other issue in particular, and how it's best for all sorts of reasons to buy truly local produce, providing it's up to scratch.

[SGWilko]

I actually forgot to finish the first sentence of my previous post — I meant also to mention awareness of food transportation as one other issue in particular, and how it's best for all sorts of reasons to buy truly local produce, providing it's up to scratch.

Indeed - and with the trend for fuel prices to be upward, this will more and more impact on the margins of the multinationals. Will this lead to the re-emergence of the independant, who can source local produce at a good price, not only to the farmer/producer, but to the customer too?

[BDunnell]

Indeed - and with the trend for fuel prices to be upward, this will more and more impact on the margins of the multinationals. Will this lead to the re-emergence of the independant, who can source local produce at a good price, not only to the farmer/producer, but to the customer too?

This is an excellent point. Will it also lead to the big retailers sourcing more from local suppliers, I wonder, rather than — as is often currently the case, it would appear — using them, exploiting them and discarding them?

All of this development is very much to the good.

[Rollo]

I see HMV as the next potential victim.

HMV is already gone in Australia. They used to have a lot of retail stores including one in the Pitt St Mall in Sydney which was vast, all disappeared a few years ago. There just isn't a lot of point in having to pay for physical rental space when people can simply download the product.

[Dave B]

Today the missus wanted to nip into Chatham Debenhams to exchange a Christmas prezzie. It cost her 90p to park the car for a few minutes. And you wonder why the traditional high street is dying on its backside. Bricks-and-mortar retailers have a tough time competing with their online rivals at the best of times, but when you've got councils who are hell-bent on squeezing every last penny out of motorists they are fighting a losing battle.

[BDunnell]

Today the missus wanted to nip into Chatham Debenhams to exchange a Christmas prezzie. It cost her 90p to park the car for a few minutes. And you wonder why the traditional high street is dying on its backside. Bricks-and-mortar retailers have a tough time competing with their online rivals at the best of times, but when you've got councils who are hell-bent on squeezing every last penny out of motorists they are fighting a losing battle.

Leaving aside the fact that I don't consider car parking charges an unreasonable concept, I think it's something of a side issue. If people want to go to a shop, they will go to it, parking charges/bus fares notwithstanding.

[SGWilko]

Urban sprawl has necessitated use of the car to bring the high street close to home. That and the cost of housing. Time has long gone when we all walked to the high street and visited relatives by train. Public transport in rural areas has been eroded and is now either impractical, infrequent or overpriced.

[Dave B]

Leaving aside the fact that I don't consider car parking charges an unreasonable concept, I think it's something of a side issue. If people want to go to a shop, they will go to it, parking charges/bus fares notwithstanding.
The trouble is they're competing against retail parks and supermarkets who don't charge for parking, as well as the internet where you can substitute the parking fee for delivery charges but shop from the comfort of your sofa. I really don't feel any urge to visit a high street for any shopping and I can only see them getting more unattractive as the former retailers get replaced with betting shops, pawnbrokers and charity shops. I think the high street is a dead duck and, unlike Mary Portas, I think we should put it out of its misery humanely rather than keep it on life support against its will.

[Dave B]

Urban sprawl has necessitated use of the car to bring the high street close to home. That and the cost of housing. Time has long gone when we all walked to the high street and visited relatives by train. Public transport in rural areas has been eroded and is now either impractical, infrequent or overpriced.
I agree. It would literally be cheaper to get a taxi to Chatham* than for two of us to get the bus or train, before you factor in the inconvenience of walking to the station and lugging our shopping. Again, councils and government need to bear some responsibility for the death of the high street - you can't reasonably expect people to flock there if it's expensive and inconvenient compared to out-of-town retail parks or shopping online.

*poor example I know, but it's 6 miles away from me so I have to live with the shame.

[SGWilko]

I agree with you to some extent Dave, but when fuel becomes only affordable as a luxury, we will all need the high street as a local commodity.

[BDunnell]

I really don't feel any urge to visit a high street for any shopping

Really? Not even a high street (or, more correctly, 'high streets' —*generally you have to go to more than one street) where you can find nice independent outlets offering fare far better than what you'll find in any supermarket, that's little or no more expensive, served by friendly people and which hasn't just been flown in en masse from overseas but instead comes from much more local suppliers?


I think the high street is a dead duck and, unlike Mary Portas, I think we should put it out of its misery humanely rather than keep it on life support against its will.

All very well to say that, but what, exactly, do you mean?

As mentioned elsewhere in this thread, there are actually plenty of vibrant examples of how the high street still has much to offer.

[Dave B]

Really? Not even a high street (or, more correctly, 'high streets' —*generally you have to go to more than one street)...
I was using the phrase "a high street" as the generally accepted generic term for going shopping in town as opposed to retail parks or supermarkets. Don't be so pedantic you're better than that and you know you are. :)


...where you can find nice independent outlets offering fare far better than what you'll find in any supermarket, that's little or no more expensive, served by friendly people and which hasn't just been flown in en masse from overseas but instead comes from much more local suppliers?
Would that such a place existed near me. I've lived and worked in parts of London where such utopias were commonplace, but near me it's the usual motley selection of pound shops, pawnbrokers and clearance stores with constant sales. There's very little I can't find cheaper or better from the supermarkets or the internet - although we do have a fantastic butchers in town.

PS what has "being flown in from overseas" got to do with things? Ever eaten English strawberries outside of that golden fortnight in August? They're horrible. If mine have to come from Israel or Morocco then so be it.

[BDunnell]

I was using the phrase "a high street" as the generally accepted generic term for going shopping in town as opposed to retail parks or supermarkets. Don't be so pedantic you're better than that and you know you are. :)

Sorry, but I genuinely assumed my original interpretation.



Would that such a place existed near me. I've lived and worked in parts of London where such utopias were commonplace, but near me it's the usual motley selection of pound shops, pawnbrokers and clearance stores with constant sales. There's very little I can't find cheaper or better from the supermarkets or the internet - although we do have a fantastic butchers in town.

Which I assume you use, and wouldn't care to see the back of? The death of such shops is far from inevitable if people keep on using them.



PS what has "being flown in from overseas" got to do with things? Ever eaten English strawberries outside of that golden fortnight in August? They're horrible. If mine have to come from Israel or Morocco then so be it.

As has been mentioned several times in this discussion, it has an awful lot to do with things — ever more, in fact. The point made in this context about rising fuel prices is a very valid one, and people generally are, I feel, taking far more interest now in where their food comes from, including the distance it has to cover before reaching the plate.

Oh, and call me old-fashioned, but there's no way I'd ever choose to eat strawberries out of season. It just seems wrong.

[Rollo]

PS what has "being flown in from overseas" got to do with things? Ever eaten English strawberries outside of that golden fortnight in August? They're horrible. If mine have to come from Israel or Morocco then so be it.

We can find oranges which have come from Brazil in our local supermarket. Basically where the goods are interchangeable and since the retailer doesn't really care where their goods come from, as long as they have lower input costs, then they're going to want to source those goods from where they are the cheapest; that goes for everything that can be sold.

[BDunnell]

We can find oranges which have come from Brazil in our local supermarket. Basically where the goods are interchangeable and since the retailer doesn't really care where their goods come from, as long as they have lower input costs, then they're going to want to source those goods from where they are the cheapest; that goes for everything that can be sold.

I'm glad that some smaller retailers — and now some larger ones, too — are recognising that there is a different way of going about things. Apparently it seems to work, too.

[wedge]

This even goes for those operating in sectors where competition comes from global online retailers like Amazon. You can't beat the joy of exploring a really good secondhand bookshop, for example. This is not something that can simply be replaced by online purchasing.

You couldn't beat the joy of going into a record shop, browsing and buying on instinctual whim - usually because the cover takes your fancy, or chatting to the guy behind the counter.

Ebooks are the new MP3. More bookshops will go under unless they're good at specialising in hardbacks.

I wonder if our homes will change? Will there ever be the need for shelving/book cases? Will people value books (as I value the same with music) as part of the furniture? There's nothing better than been nosey and that smuggish joy of being a pompous snob looking at one's collection. Just isn't the same scrolling through media devices.


The trouble is they're competing against retail parks and supermarkets who don't charge for parking

They do. You just have to be careful you're not caught staying over the allotted time else you'll get a PCN.

[SGWilko]

Car park charges are an interesting aspect to the high street issue.

A lot of land in the town centre is local gov't owned, and any planning permission for a supermarket would likely include a S106 for a council run car park as a revenue stream. Now, this is fine if you are able to reclaim the parking cost in store (provided your minimum spend is enough), but this then can deter the visitor who wants to stay for a longer period and may not want to use the supermarket.

It is of course all money money money, and this is one reason why the supermarket model has worked so well. The producers are screwed on price just so the customer can get a 'good' price while the supermarket retains a good margin.

It would be nice to see some modern form of container ship - using fixed sail technology for hauling exotic goods across the seas. We used to do it by sail before the industrial revolution.

And look at how the Victorians in their manor houses coped for their food - ingenious methods for forcing plants, heated greenhouses for pineapples, cucumbers etc. There is not the money for this now because the supermarkets can buy cheaper abroad.

[SGWilko]

Ouch!

Half of all food produced in the world 'left to rot' | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2013/01/10/half-of-all-food-produced-in-the-world-left-to-rot-3345874/)

:eek:

Amen to this: The best way to reduce waste in the home is to shop little and often and to learn the skills we have forgotten as to thrift and making more than one meal out of something

And if we all did this, not only would we be signifantly better off financially, but ther supermarkets would HAVE to change - and quick!

[Dave B]

They do. You just have to be careful you're not caught staying over the allotted time else you'll get a PCN.
But they're just unenforceable invoices which go in the bin, as opposed to council-issued tickets which are valid in law. :p

[SGWilko]

If people want to go to a shop, they will go to it, parking charges/bus fares notwithstanding.

I agree with that, but in the case of Mrs Dave B, it was more a need than a want in the particular referenced situation - to return/exchange something within, I suspect, the required period.

But yes, supermarket shopping is not a pleasant thing - unless chatting with the checkout staff is your thing. Is there a want - or even the time for that matter - for the majority of the buying public, to have a leisurely and pleasant morning/afternoon spent in the high street buying from staff who actually know their trade.

Perhaps we all need to take a step back, take stock of our lives and slow down and get back to enjoying the stuff that we would normally class as a chore???

[gadjo_dilo]

I wonder if our homes will change? Will there ever be the need for shelving/book cases? Will people value books (as I value the same with music) as part of the furniture? There's nothing better than been nosey and that smuggish joy of being a pompous snob looking at one's collection. Just isn't the same scrolling through media devices.


I reckon I'm the old fashion type who cares about books. I still look with pride at my collection and my soul ached when I had to throw away a few. I still buy books even if I don't have time and mood to read or enough money to buy them. But I admit that I seldom enter a book store and when do I have the strange feeling of a gadjo.

[gadjo_dilo]

But yes, supermarket shopping is not a pleasant thing - unless chatting with the checkout staff is your thing. Is there a want - or even the time for that matter - for the majority of the buying public, to have a leisurely and pleasant morning/afternoon spent in the high street buying from staff who actually know their trade.


I'm a shy person who hates to get attention from shop assistants. The malls that include hypermarkets are a blessing for people like me. I love my shopping at Sun Plaza: first I pay a visit to cosmetics shops and take care to apply my fav perfumes for free, then I go to the C&A, H&M, M&S, Debenhams, Deichmann, etc. stores and try on clothes/shoes without being bothered by someone who is interested to sell by all means. The apotheosis is the final visit to Cora hypermarket where I can find everything from food to furniture.

Ironically I live in the middle of the city - the fashionable part - but I seldom do my shopping here.

What used to be the commercial part in the central part of my city was almost dead until a few years ago when it was transformed in an area full of pubs, restaurants, clubs, etc. It's the main attraction of this boring city and a hit with foreign tourists. Don't miss it if you ever come here,

[RS]

Today the missus wanted to nip into Chatham Debenhams to exchange a Christmas prezzie. It cost her 90p to park the car for a few minutes. And you wonder why the traditional high street is dying on its backside. Bricks-and-mortar retailers have a tough time competing with their online rivals at the best of times, but when you've got councils who are hell-bent on squeezing every last penny out of motorists they are fighting a losing battle.

Totally agree.

Business rates for town centre shops are set at totally unrealistic levels that it's a wonder that any high street shops survive to be honest outside of larger regional shopping centres. So the council/government take huge amounts of money off high street shops, and then do all they can to scare people off using the high street by charging extortionate amounts for parking, agressive use of traffic wardens, and easily approval out of town supermarkets and other retail developments.

[SGWilko]

Totally agree.

Business rates for town centre shops are set at totally unrealistic levels that it's a wonder that any high street shops survive to be honest outside of larger regional shopping centres. So the council/government take huge amounts of money off high street shops, and then do all they can to scare people off using the high street by charging extortionate amounts for parking, agressive use of traffic wardens, and easily approval out of town supermarkets and other retail developments.

Do you see the emergence of the 'in town' shopping centre a good or bad thing? Look at Westfield (White City & Tunbridge Wells) as examples.

The problem with large centres such as these in town, is the permitted density for car parking, which is an issue as public transport is still not adequate unfortunately.

[SGWilko]

Parking enforcement is a side effect to the mass proliferation of cars. So many households now have more than one car. Just look at every residential street - jam packed with cars.

Until we all become more conscious about our use of cars and make better use - like henners does - of park and ride schemes, there will always be parking enforcement.

We've lost the will to walk long distances because to take the car is easy and still relatively cheap. But this is changing, and car ownership is more and more expensive - from tax, to insurance, servicing and fuelling.

I admit that we have two cars, simply because I often have to go to the office on a weekend and the train service is infrequent, and the wife may need the other car if out with the kids. But I use my car less and less now I have a moped (priced off the rail commute) and I think I will soon ditch the second car.

[SGWilko]

We own two cars too but mainly because my wife works 16 miles away and I work 31 miles away in the opposite direction. Both locations are not reachable by public transport easily and it works out more expensive than driving in any case. I actually save £18 a month by using my car and can get to work in 40 minutes as opposed to the 2 hours it would take by train. Rail prices are going up again and everything seems geared up to hit the commuter. We need to get to work to earn money so we're an easy target in many respects. This is why I'm so skint every month and have to prioritise how I spend my money. The job I have isn't as good as my last and significant cuts have had to be made. We want to start a family and its going to be a massive strain on us. Not all of us are living the high life on benefits with all our bills paid for including the everyday necessity that is cable TV. And they wonder why we are not shopping on the high street when its cheaper online?

Have you looked into a moped/scooter? Seriously - it was cheaper for me to buy a new moped, tax, insure, service and run it over a year than the cost of an all zone annual season ticket! The mind boggles.

It's only a 50cc moped, so I don't need L plates or to take a CBT. I commute from Sutton At Hone (just outside the M25 near Swanley) to central London every day. I get an average of 120mpg on the moped. Since 3rd December 2011 I've spent less than £530 on fuel and travelled in excess of 17000Km's!

Also, subscribe to MSE, and watch Martin Lewis's program on ITV. I've saved quite a few bob due to Money Saving Expert. Once you start saving, you just can't stop!

[SGWilko]

Have you looked into a moped/scooter? Seriously - it was cheaper for me to buy a new moped, tax, insure, service and run it over a year than the cost of an all zone annual season ticket! The mind boggles.

It's only a 50cc moped, so I don't need L plates or to take a CBT. I commute from Sutton At Hone (just outside the M25 near Swanley) to central London every day. I get an average of 120mpg on the moped. Since 3rd December 2011 I've spent less than £530 on fuel and travelled in excess of 17000Km's!

Also, subscribe to MSE, and watch Martin Lewis's program on ITV. I've saved quite a few bob due to Money Saving Expert. Once you start saving, you just can't stop!

And given that this year, there is no cost of the moped or riding clobber to factor in, thats another £1400 saved, on top of the £600 I expect to save like I did last year. I'll admit that you have to have your wits about you as there are some real cretins in cars out there, but if you have a sensible - no hurry approach - then the commute is a pleasure.

The thing that annoys me most is knowing just how much, over the 22 years I've been commuting into town, I could have saved if I'd got a moped from the start!

[SGWilko]

I'd be killed on the A470 alone, plus I can't use the M4 on a moped. My wife is a MSE subscriber and is on top of our bills where we are constantly getting money back and switching to new providers. We are about to move house after selling ours. Its bigger, the mortgage is 10 grand less and its a new build house. The downside is its in a rough town, but I suppose that won't matter when you get home at night. You can be anywhere.

Sure - I steer clear of the fast roads too - I am limited to 30mph! But the back roads are much quieter, and it only takes an additional 10-15 mins all told!

Sounds like you are both financially savvy which is good. Hopefully, depending on your housebuilder, you should save a few bob on heating bills too. We went from new build (nice house - impossible area) to a 60's mid terrace. We've had to re-do the loft insulation and save up for replacement windows, but we are much happier now.

Get yourself one of those OWL electric monitors to cut down power use - we had great fun finding out all the devices that were power hungry when we thought they were off - coffee machine, TV's, laptop power supply.....

[BDunnell]

You couldn't beat the joy of going into a record shop, browsing and buying on instinctual whim - usually because the cover takes your fancy, or chatting to the guy behind the counter.

Ebooks are the new MP3. More bookshops will go under unless they're good at specialising in hardbacks.

Well, a fair few well-established, especially secondhand, independent record shops seem still to be viable, and the same appears to be true of books. Otherwise, I agree — there will be a diminution in numbers.



I wonder if our homes will change? Will there ever be the need for shelving/book cases? Will people value books (as I value the same with music) as part of the furniture? There's nothing better than been nosey and that smuggish joy of being a pompous snob looking at one's collection. Just isn't the same scrolling through media devices.

To me, a home looks empty without books, but alas I think the future is increasingly bookless.

[SGWilko]

Sure - I steer clear of the fast roads too - I am limited to 30mph! But the back roads are much quieter, and it only takes an additional 10-15 mins all told!

Sounds like you are both financially savvy which is good. Hopefully, depending on your housebuilder, you should save a few bob on heating bills too. We went from new build (nice house - impossible area) to a 60's mid terrace. We've had to re-do the loft insulation and save up for replacement windows, but we are much happier now.

Get yourself one of those OWL electric monitors to cut down power use - we had great fun finding out all the devices that were power hungry when we thought they were off - coffee machine, TV's, laptop power supply.....

Oh, and I also invested in a large water butt last year just after the hosepipe ban was announced - we are on a water meter and grow our own veg.

So, from me to all; apologies for the wettest summer on record!!!! :D

[SGWilko]

To me, a home looks empty without books, but alas I think the future is increasingly bookless.

Yes, it does. But I don't see all books dead just yet. Maybe novels etc, but stuff like encyclopediae (???) cookery books, school/education books will always be best in physical format.

[BDunnell]

Car park charges are an interesting aspect to the high street issue.

A lot of land in the town centre is local gov't owned, and any planning permission for a supermarket would likely include a S106 for a council run car park as a revenue stream. Now, this is fine if you are able to reclaim the parking cost in store (provided your minimum spend is enough), but this then can deter the visitor who wants to stay for a longer period and may not want to use the supermarket.

This is something that's often been raised in the town from which I come — one where, as I said earlier, an awful lot of shops have closed down including most of the decent ones, and either been left empty or replaced by charity shops and assorted tat merchants. Some local people and shopkeepers seem to think that car parking charges are at fault, or that any move to pedestrianise the town centre — which would undeniably, in my view, make it a more pleasant place — would be disastrous as it would put off 'passing trade'. Were you to see the shops in question, you too would realise that this is utterly nonsensical. These are not businesses that are ever going to attract any passing trade. So, very often I think arguments about car parking are a bit of a side issue. I can see why the situation you describe is somewhat different, though.

[BDunnell]

Ouch!

Half of all food produced in the world 'left to rot' | Metro News (http://metro.co.uk/2013/01/10/half-of-all-food-produced-in-the-world-left-to-rot-3345874/)

:eek:

Amen to this: The best way to reduce waste in the home is to shop little and often and to learn the skills we have forgotten as to thrift and making more than one meal out of something

And if we all did this, not only would we be signifantly better off financially, but ther supermarkets would HAVE to change - and quick!

Yes! It's certainly made me think.

[BDunnell]

I agree with that, but in the case of Mrs Dave B, it was more a need than a want in the particular referenced situation - to return/exchange something within, I suspect, the required period.

Yes, indeed.



But yes, supermarket shopping is not a pleasant thing - unless chatting with the checkout staff is your thing. Is there a want - or even the time for that matter - for the majority of the buying public, to have a leisurely and pleasant morning/afternoon spent in the high street buying from staff who actually know their trade.

I suppose I am fortunate in this regard, since I work from home and can generally make time to go to the shops. However, all the places I described that I use are open well after the end of the typical working day, so could still be used by those in '9 to 5' jobs if they have the inclination, or the energy after a day's work. I can understand that, in those circumstances, a supermarket is often a more appealing, easy option. However, I do see working patterns changing, and working from home becoming increasingly prevalent. Might this have a positive effect in terms of getting more people out of supermarkets and, if their quality and pricing are good enough, into their local independent stores? I think it might. A lot of the shops I mentioned in my vicinity are also very popular with students, whose days are similarly flexible.

[BDunnell]

Business rates for town centre shops are set at totally unrealistic levels that it's a wonder that any high street shops survive to be honest outside of larger regional shopping centres. So the council/government take huge amounts of money off high street shops, and then do all they can to scare people off using the high street by charging extortionate amounts for parking, agressive use of traffic wardens, and easily approval out of town supermarkets and other retail developments.

On business rates, I agree with you. This has apparently been a problem in the area in which I now live, with several shops saying they've been forced out as a result. In other cases, landlords have pushed out perfectly profitable independent businesses in favour of supermarkets.

This leads me on to another thought, about empty shops. They make for such a sad sight, and do nothing to encourage people to shop in the businesses that remain. I do wonder whether councils ought to be thinking about future needs, and somehow attempting to encourage the concentration of those shops that are left into a smaller area, allowing former shops located more on the periphery to be turned into (preferably affordable) housing or, if the building can be knocked down, making the land available. This would help avoid the depressing situation where surviving shops are scattered amongst empty ones.

[BDunnell]

Do you see the emergence of the 'in town' shopping centre a good or bad thing? Look at Westfield (White City & Tunbridge Wells) as examples.

Again, depends on the town in question. They can be bad news, but if the independent shops nearby are good enough, they can survive.

[BDunnell]

Yes, it does. But I don't see all books dead just yet. Maybe novels etc, but stuff like encyclopediae (???) cookery books, school/education books will always be best in physical format.

I'm not so sure. I think the day is fast coming where all of these will increasingly be read as e-books.

[SGWilko]

Again, depends on the town in question. They can be bad news, but if the independent shops nearby are good enough, they can survive.

But, what is to stop the independent shops from being invited to relocate to within the new development?

[BDunnell]

But, what is to stop the independent shops from being invited to relocate to within the new development?

Higher rents?

[SGWilko]

Higher rents?

Potentially offset with the turnover rent model, and the guaranteed higher footfall rates?

[BDunnell]

Potentially offset with the turnover rent model, and the guaranteed higher footfall rates?

Potentially, yes, but — especially in the current climate — would an independent business be willing to take the chance?

[SGWilko]

Potentially, yes, but — especially in the current climate — would an independent business be willing to take the chance?

Good question. But the big players can be flexible. We live close to Bluewater. I see quite a lot of retailers that start off with a big unit and then get moved to a smaller one and Vice Versa. The success of a shopping centre is dependent upon the success of the retailers after all. Tobacco Dock is prime example of it going Pete Tong.

[SGWilko]

I will look into Owl monitors thanks for the tip.

You might be able to bagsy one off the energy supplier when you switch to the new house. We got ours for £25 from Asda, but you can get them free with some energy tariffs. There is a sensor that clips around the insulation of the power feed to the meter, and a unit that recieves the signal and displays the useage. You just have to input your tariffs cost (making a daily calculation to factor in any standing charge). They are not completely accurate, but a godsend for reducing general useage and working out what uses what by a process of elimination.

[SGWilko]

I think although this is off topic it highlights that many households are making drastic cuts and we are just not buying on the high street at present. I don't think things will change any time soon as there are too many greedy fingers in the pie all wanting to squeeze the consumer in a cloak and dagger sort of way.

Well, there are still some things you cannot just buy online - fashion clothing for example - while you have a right to return stuff (when buying online - distance selling rules), most folk like to try stuff on first, which is a role for the high street. And as Ben mentioned earlier vis a vis camera equipment, he'll buy online but after physically visiting a shop to see/get a feel for the product and hopefully recieve good advice about it too.

[BDunnell]

I think although this is off topic it highlights that many households are making drastic cuts and we are just not buying on the high street at present.

To me, that's far from off topic, because I don't think it's all to do with the recession. The figures for online retail over the Christmas period just gone, I seem to recall, bear this out. Changing habits are, I think, more to blame.

[SGWilko]

The builder is a family friend too so he's gone through all the details and by all accounts its using the latest methods to make it efficient. I will look into Owl monitors thanks for the tip.

You will certainly benefit from reduced gas bills with a condensing boiler and no doubt all the rads will have TRV's on (be sure to turn them all on and off regularly so they don't stick). You will also have a water meter, which I think is so much more efficient as it makes you physically consider your water use.

[RS]

And they wonder why we are not shopping on the high street when its cheaper online?

I can't blame you at all for that but the reason it is cheaper online is that they don't have to shell out for business rates in the same way, they don't employ as many people, they dodge corporation tax and historically in some cases VAT too. Of course everyone wants to part with as little of their cash as possible but it doesn't really do the country any good in the long run for the above reasons.

It's up to the government to do something about that though, maybe lowering business rates to be more inline with council tax and increasing VAT instead as that is harder to dodge.

[BDunnell]

I can't blame you at all for that but the reason it is cheaper online is that they don't have to shell out for business rates in the same way, they don't employ as many people, they dodge corporation tax and historically in some cases VAT too. Of course everyone wants to part with as little of their cash as possible but it doesn't really do the country any good in the long run for the above reasons.

It's up to the government to do something about that though, maybe lowering business rates to be more inline with council tax and increasing VAT instead as that is harder to dodge.

Agreed. I'd add the main reason why I shop online — sheer convenience. I don't do a huge amount of it, but others will for exactly that reason.

[SGWilko]

they dodge corporation tax and historically in some cases VAT too.

And there's the rub. Once they are stopped from doing this, they will have to raise prices. This may well play to the hands of the physical retailer......

[SGWilko]

Agreed. I'd add the main reason why I shop online — sheer convenience. I don't do a huge amount of it, but others will for exactly that reason.

Convenience yes - provided someone is in to accept a delivery. Generally, I purchase online because I know I will get my product significantly cheaper.

[Mark]

Totally agree.

Business rates for town centre shops are set at totally unrealistic levels that it's a wonder that any high street shops survive to be honest outside of larger regional shopping centres. So the council/government take huge amounts of money off high street shops, and then do all they can to scare people off using the high street by charging extortionate amounts for parking, agressive use of traffic wardens, and easily approval out of town supermarkets and other retail developments.

Indeed. Councils are still stuck in their ways from when the 'high street' was a major rent source and will continue to hang onto that even if it means killing it.

[SGWilko]

Totally agree.

Business rates for town centre shops are set at totally unrealistic levels that it's a wonder that any high street shops survive to be honest outside of larger regional shopping centres. So the council/government take huge amounts of money off high street shops, and then do all they can to scare people off using the high street by charging extortionate amounts for parking, agressive use of traffic wardens, and easily approval out of town supermarkets and other retail developments.

The effect on Dartford - my local town centre - is there for all to see. First Lakeside opened up and the first few nails were in the coffin, then other centres like the Glades in Bromley. Along came Bluewater and all but sealed DTC's fate. But what really sent it into freefall was Tesco's cynical attempt to divide the local park up with a service road. They bought up neally all the retail on one road leading into the town hoping to get planning - which never happened thank goodness. So now we have nearly an entire parade of shops all empty/boarded up. Nice - not!

[BDunnell]

I shop online mainly to save money and for convenience. I could stroll down to my local shop and pay £5, £10, or £20 more for exactly the same product just so I have a clear conscience on saving the country but in reality we look out for ourselves and money is tight. This might be a short sighted view but hey its the reality.

Not short-sighted at all, if it's what you need to do. All I'd add is that I make a net saving by walking to the shops and buying produce that's no pricier than it would be from a supermarket. There's often the assumption that independent stores will be more expensive, but often (at least up here in Yorkshire) I've not found this to be the case — far from it. Of course, I'm referring specifically to food here. With other goods, I would almost always buy from bigger chains or online for price or convenience reasons.

[BDunnell]

The effect on Dartford - my local town centre - is there for all to see. First Lakeside opened up and the first few nails were in the coffin, then other centres like the Glades in Bromley. Along came Bluewater and all but sealed DTC's fate. But what really sent it into freefall was Tesco's cynical attempt to divide the local park up with a service road. They bought up neally all the retail on one road leading into the town hoping to get planning - which never happened thank goodness. So now we have nearly an entire parade of shops all empty/boarded up. Nice - not!

What do you think the solution is? My view, as expressed more generally earlier, would be (if practical or suitable) to turn the empty shops into housing as soon as possible, because when it's got to that stage there's little likelihood of new retailers coming in.

[SGWilko]

(at least up here in Yorkshire)

Eee bah gum lad. When did they change to that flag up in Yorkshire then? ;)

[BDunnell]

Eee bah gum lad. When did they change to that flag up in Yorkshire then? ;)

I've been meaning to get rid of it, actually!

[SGWilko]

What do you think the solution is? My view, as expressed more generally earlier, would be (if practical or suitable) to turn the empty shops into housing as soon as possible, because when it's got to that stage there's little likelihood of new retailers coming in.

Indeed, and it is aprime location for affordable/first time homes due to the proximity to the rail station. But, wresting the property off Tesco will not be cheap, and is thus no doubt the reason why it remains empty.

[SGWilko]

We also have a massive empty ex Co-Op store centre of town. That could easily be raised and become a leisure complex with flats/appartments above.

[schmenke]

Agreed. I'd add the main reason why I shop online — sheer convenience. ....

Yes, that’s a large part of why I purchase on-line, but also because there is generally a greater variety or selection available.
For example, a couple of recent items purchased on-line that I couldn’t source in our local shops: A specific camera lens, and believe it or not, snow tires :mark: .

[SGWilko]

Yes, that’s a large part of why I purchase on-line, but also because there is generally a greater variety or selection available.
For example, a couple of recent items purchased on-line that I couldn’t source in our local shops: A specific camera lens, and believe it or not, snow tires :mark: .

Actually, if you were to buy a new car through DealDrivers online, you'd cut out the wideboys in the dealer and save, literally hundreds - even thousands - on a vehicle to your specification, delivered by transporter to your driveway - so not even delivery mileage!

[schmenke]

...I will get my product significantly cheaper.

Not here. Merchandise is certainly not significantly cheaper on-line.
Costs for shipping, customs duties, brokerage fees, and our Canadian GST (Goods and Sales Tax, similar to your VAT) all contribute to comparable prices to those found in our local shops.

[SGWilko]

Not here. Merchandise is certainly not significantly cheaper on-line.
Costs for shipping, customs duties, brokerage fees, and our Canadian GST (Goods and Sales Tax, similar to your VAT) all contribute to comparable prices to those found in our local shops.

That would probably be the same here were it not for the likes of Amazon etc with their off-shore distribution outlets that counteract VAT etc.....

[BDunnell]

Indeed, and it is aprime location for affordable/first time homes due to the proximity to the rail station. But, wresting the property off Tesco will not be cheap, and is thus no doubt the reason why it remains empty.

Tesco and their ilk are desperate nowadays to try and demonstrate commitment to communities. If they were serious about this, it wouldn't be much of a problem. Of course, it's all a front.

This brings me on to another point, namely the way in which big businesses attempt, often cringingly badly, to come across as 'matey'. It's appalling (I read recently of a phone company starting a customer e-mail with 'Hi guys!') but it does prove that they too think there's mileage from a more personalised approach.

[schmenke]

Actually, if you were to buy a new car through DealDrivers online, you'd cut out the wideboys in the dealer and save, literally hundreds - even thousands - on a vehicle to your specification, delivered by transporter to your driveway - so not even delivery mileage!

Nope.
The Canadian equivalent to DealDrivers is carcostcanada.com.
My experience is that no savings are to be had purchasing through carcostcanada. In fact, the vehicle I recently purchased from a local dealer was priced ~$2000 higher at carcostcanada! :s

[SGWilko]

Nope.
The Canadian equivalent to DealDrivers is carcostcanada.com.
My experience is that no savings are to be had purchasing through carcostcanada. In fact, the vehicle I recently purchased from a local dealer was priced ~$2000 higher at carcostcanada! :s

Well, at least you have the falls - oh, and JV!

[schmenke]

Well, at least you have the falls - oh, and JV!

That doesn't make me feel any better :p :

[SGWilko]

That doesn't make me feel any better :p :

Mounties.....

And you gave us John Candy and Jim Carrey, so not all bad!

[schmenke]

Yeah, and we sold Celine to the Yanks :D

[RS]

But, wresting the property off Tesco will not be cheap, and is thus no doubt the reason why it remains empty.

Don't Tesco build houses yet? Surely only a matter of time!

[SGWilko]

Don't Tesco build houses yet? Surely only a matter of time!

Aisle 42 I think......

[Mark]

IKEA has already done it!

[SGWilko]

IKEA has already done it!

Yeah, but you have walk through the WC, round past the kitchen, up and down the stairs and through the airing cupboard just to get to the bedroom.........

[SGWilko]

Ha - here's the answer;

BBC News - Why some zombie businesses are good for the High Street (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20931608)

:p

[BDunnell]

Ha - here's the answer;

BBC News - Why some zombie businesses are good for the High Street (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-20931608)

:p

When Woolworths went under, there were quite a lot of instances of art exhibitions and so forth being mounted in the newly-empty shops. It's undeniably a good thing, but, longer-term, hardly sustainable. We're also going to need a lot of art groups and the like to cope with all the empty spaces that are going to result from changing habits. The idea put forward at the end of the BBC story to which you linked is nice, but I'd prioritise change of use to housing in most instances, while naturally ensuring that there is space too for community ventures and the like.

[BDunnell]

In the town where I am moving to the local Woolworths was the busiest shop in the town and maintained targets even though the rest of the company was struggling. Nationwide though there was an outpouring of sadness when it was announced Woolworths was closing yet it wasn't enough to turn that sadness into people purchasing the stuff they sold to save them. People will always go where products are cheaper.

Woolworths, like Dewhurst mentioned earlier in this thread, was also an example of a chain that had simply had its day. The reason people weren't shopping there, surely, was not just because they could buy the same sort of items elsewhere not just for less, but also because they preferred other brands. I can genuinely see the same thing happening to M&S in terms of clothing.

[Rollo]

People will always go where products are cheaper.

And thus begins the race to the bottom. Cheaper prices leads to a reduction in input costs, which means finding cheaper sources of labour.

This means outsourcing factories to places like Laos and Vietnam. Falling real wages in developed countries leads to less aggregate demand and thus you have a trail off in the demand for high street retail space.
Repeat the pattern across the western world and suddenly governments start talking about austerity because they can't collect income tax from wage earners anymore and large companies certainly refuse to pay it. People will start talking about fixing tax rates to encourage job growth, but really that's all a giant lie as changing tax rates is pointless when companies don't pay any in the first place.

[BDunnell]

And thus begins the race to the bottom. Cheaper prices leads to a reduction in input costs, which means finding cheaper sources of labour.

And thus a diminution in quality. Journalism is one field where this is already being felt. But I digress.



This means outsourcing factories to places like Laos and Vietnam. Falling real wages in developed countries leads to less aggregate demand and thus you have a trail off in the demand for high street retail space.

Set against this, though, is the trend outlined several times in this thread whereby greater awareness of issues relating to food production and distribution is actually improving quality and, hopefully, the lot of local producers and sellers. I wonder whether we will see something similar in other sectors?

[BDunnell]

I see HMV as the next potential victim.

Seems like it will be. Reported tonight that an administrator may be appointed tomorrow.

To my mind, it's another example of a business falling victim not just to the rise of internet sales, but of the stores not being nice places to go.

[SGWilko]

Shame, that's another big name. So, which one next then?

[BDunnell]

Shame, that's another big name. So, which one next then?

It amazes me that BHS, for example, survives.

[Mark]

Karen got £50 of HMV vouchers for Christmas. We thought it odd that someone would buy HMV vouchers in the first place - and fifty quids worth! And that she had best spend them before they go under.

Well she's spent £15 of them. And she's going into town to try and spend the rest today but I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse to take them.

Edit: It seems they have stopped taking vouchers :( . £35 lost perhaps.

[Mark]

BHS is a curious one. It should have gone away at the same time as Littlewoods clothing and yet it doesn't. Especially since it used to fill the market space of basic clothing that Primark does so well now and for half the price.

[Mark]

I always though C&A had gone bust until I saw stores in Hungary, and Belgium. Anyone know why they don't operate in the UK any more?

Just like many retailers who have a foreign business but then decide they don't want to operate in that market any more.

[GridGirl]

Karen got £50 of HMV vouchers for Christmas. We thought it odd that someone would buy HMV vouchers in the first place - and fifty quids worth! And that she had best spend them before they go under.

Well she's spent £15 of them. And she's going into town to try and spend the rest today but I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse to take them.

Edit: It seems they have stopped taking vouchers :( . £35 lost perhaps.

Why didn't you spend them last week or at the very latest this weekend? There was huge speculation last week when HMV announced their 'big sale' that they would be entering administration imminently. Having said that, when I looked at the 'big sale' online last week I did wonder whether online orders would be honoured if it did go into administration before an order was dispatched.

[Dave B]

BHS seem lost in a timewarp, but don't forget that they were absorbed into the Arcadia Group, along with Topshop, Burtons etc. They're probably safe for now as part of such a huge conglomerate, but could easily be sold off if the Greens get bored (or need to pay some tax at some point).

WHSmith and Boots are two huge names who one might think are too big to fail, but seem to offer little that can't be obtained elsewhere for less. Boots in particular are very expensive compared to the supermarkets and even rivals like Superdrug. Both chains also have hugely expensive property portfolios in prime locations, often several per town (as did Gamestation). Their finances seem ok at the moment, but they can't afford to be complacent.

My money's on Waterstones not seeing out the year (ironically sold recently by HMV); and I have doubts over Thomas Cook who are laden with debt and facing a squeeze from the lack of consumer spending and the might of rivals TUI (First Choice in the UK). I hope I'm wrong.

[BDunnell]

WHSmith and Boots are two huge names who one might think are too big to fail, but seem to offer little that can't be obtained elsewhere for less.

Were WHSmith to collapse, it would — and I don't exaggerate one iota here — be fatal for many print magazines in the UK. The extent to which Smiths controls the magazine market, and to which magazines are dependent on it, is difficult to over-emphasise. At a time when consumers still are not ready to embrace digital versions of print magazines, let alone paid-for digital-only magazines, the death of Smiths, were it to happen, would be an enormous body-blow. Don't forget that many magazines have their sole significant sales outlet in Smiths, since even the biggest supermarkets generally stock only a small selection of the best-selling titles.



My money's on Waterstones not seeing out the year (ironically sold recently by HMV)...

There ought, you'd think, to be a bit more hope for a chain like Waterstone's, because of the opportunities to — as I mentioned earlier — make the stores nice places to spend time, and hence help justify slightly higher prices than one would pay online. Well, they're a bit better than most, but that's not saying an awful lot.


...and I have doubts over Thomas Cook who are laden with debt and facing a squeeze from the lack of consumer spending and the might of rivals TUI (First Choice in the UK).

I would suggest there that the most likely outcome is Thomas Cook being bought out by someone else, rather than going under.

[wedge]

To my mind, it's another example of a business falling victim not just to the rise of internet sales, but of the stores not being nice places to go.

Can't remember the last time I bought music/film from HMV. Last year I was desperate to buy a new pair of earbuds.

Horrible company to work for. All they ever cared about was the bottom line. Very cold management and consequently shopfloor staff quickly lost their enthusiasm.

Funnily enough they gave Fopps a lifeline. The staff their actually care. The staff came back and made the effort to keep business going.

[wedge]

Were WHSmith to collapse, it would — and I don't exaggerate one iota here — be fatal for many print magazines in the UK. The extent to which Smiths controls the magazine market, and to which magazines are dependent on it, is difficult to over-emphasise. At a time when consumers still are not ready to embrace digital versions of print magazines, let alone paid-for digital-only magazines, the death of Smiths, were it to happen, would be an enormous body-blow. Don't forget that many magazines have their sole significant sales outlet in Smiths, since even the biggest supermarkets generally stock only a small selection of the best-selling titles.


More importantly where else on the High Street can you browse a wide range of magazines and not be told to F-off to the local library?

[GridGirl]

I only tend to use WH Smiths located in train stations. I can only assume the over priced drinks and confectionary keep them afloat. Also, who does buy the chocolate bars for £1 that are offered at the till. I noticed in Leeds station before Christmas that the serve yourself tills even have a default option of asking you to buy the £1 chocolate so there is no escape. :s

[Rollo]

Were WHSmith to collapse, it would — and I don't exaggerate one iota here — be fatal for many print magazines in the UK. The extent to which Smiths controls the magazine market, and to which magazines are dependent on it, is difficult to over-emphasise. At a time when consumers still are not ready to embrace digital versions of print magazines, let alone paid-for digital-only magazines, the death of Smiths, were it to happen, would be an enormous body-blow. Don't forget that many magazines have their sole significant sales outlet in Smiths, since even the biggest supermarkets generally stock only a small selection of the best-selling titles.

Print is a hideously capital intensive medium. Booksellers are quaking with the rise of e-books and even firms like News Corp and Fairfax (at least in Australia) have hinted at the possibility of there being no physical daily newspapers in 2015. News Corp trialed The Daily and although that failed, it was probably still too early for the market to adopt it.
I think that it would be a case of IPC Media who print about 60 magazine titles in the UK who'd go before WHSmith did. WHSmith would go on as a bookseller after the magazine industry decides to go online or not.

[Iain]

Seems like it will be. Reported tonight that an administrator may be appointed tomorrow.

To my mind, it's another example of a business falling victim not just to the rise of internet sales, but of the stores not being nice places to go.

I very rarely buy anything from there, as it's simply too expensive compared to online. I do go for a browse though and see what's out there, then buy it from play.com, which is closing too! I'm fast running out of places to purchase DVDs and the occasional CD from. Yes supermarkets are cheap at times, but they don't have an extensive range of titles.

I can't see Smith's getting in trouble. There's nothing else out there that compares to them, in terms of their stock of magazines and newspapers. I don't even think there are any other newsagent chains that can get close to them. I can only think of Martin McColls, but they're small-fry compared to WHS.


I only tend to use WH Smiths located in train stations. I can only assume the over priced drinks and confectionary keep them afloat. Also, who does buy the chocolate bars for £1 that are offered at the till. I noticed in Leeds station before Christmas that the serve yourself tills even have a default option of asking you to buy the £1 chocolate so there is no escape. http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/smilies/s.gif

They have an outlet in the largest hospital in Edinburgh. I must have gone in there every day for the best part of 5 months to get an evening paper and the occasional bag of sweets. The same couple of staff kept asking every single bloody day if I wanted a special offer. It does grate on you after a while. :s

[wedge]

I very rarely buy anything from there, as it's simply too expensive compared to online. I do go for a browse though and see what's out there, then buy it from play.com, which is closing too!

Funnily, play.com is expensive compared to Amazon. Even third parties who offer their services on both sites tend to charge a bit more at Play than they do at Amazon.

[Iain]

Funnily, play.com is expensive compared to Amazon. Even third parties who offer their services on both sites tend to charge a bit more at Play than they do at Amazon.

I never use traders on Play and have never used Amazon, so I've always found Play reasonable compared to the likes of HMV.

[BDunnell]

Can't remember the last time I bought music/film from HMV. Last year I was desperate to buy a new pair of earbuds.

Horrible company to work for. All they ever cared about was the bottom line. Very cold management and consequently shopfloor staff quickly lost their enthusiasm.

Funnily enough they gave Fopps a lifeline. The staff their actually care. The staff came back and made the effort to keep business going.

There you go, as they say.

[BDunnell]

I only tend to use WH Smiths located in train stations. I can only assume the over priced drinks and confectionary keep them afloat. Also, who does buy the chocolate bars for £1 that are offered at the till. I noticed in Leeds station before Christmas that the serve yourself tills even have a default option of asking you to buy the £1 chocolate so there is no escape. :s

Well, there's another area in which Smiths have, in effect, a monopoly. As with the figures showing the percentage of UK music buyers who still use HMV, one has to ask: what does it take these days to make such a business viable?

[BDunnell]

Print is a hideously capital intensive medium. Booksellers are quaking with the rise of e-books and even firms like News Corp and Fairfax (at least in Australia) have hinted at the possibility of there being no physical daily newspapers in 2015. News Corp trialed The Daily and although that failed, it was probably still too early for the market to adopt it.

It's a very, very difficult situation for publishers and journalists. At present, there is little or no evidence that people are willing to pay for journalism in sufficient numbers such as to make it a viable business, especially in specialist sectors.



I think that it would be a case of IPC Media who print about 60 magazine titles in the UK who'd go before WHSmith did. WHSmith would go on as a bookseller after the magazine industry decides to go online or not.

IPC has, in recent years, sold an awful lot of its magazine titles. And what percentage of the book market in the UK is held by Smiths, airports and stations excluded?

[BDunnell]

I can't see Smith's getting in trouble. There's nothing else out there that compares to them, in terms of their stock of magazines and newspapers. I don't even think there are any other newsagent chains that can get close to them. I can only think of Martin McColls, but they're small-fry compared to WHS.

Smiths will get into trouble, I'm sure, because magazine sales are on the slide.

[Mark]

Why didn't you spend them last week or at the very latest this weekend? There was huge speculation last week when HMV announced their 'big sale' that they would be entering administration imminently. Having said that, when I looked at the 'big sale' online last week I did wonder whether online orders would be honoured if it did go into administration before an order was dispatched.

Had no idea there was a 'Big Sale'.

[Mark]

I hope we still do have physical book stores, if only for childrens books. Freya loves her books, but I doubt a kindle would survive too long ;)

[BDunnell]

Shame, that's another big name. So, which one next then?

Blockbuster, as it turns out.

BBC News - Blockbuster goes into administration (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21047652)

I'm amazed it lasted so long, to be honest.

[Mark]

I'm amazed it still exists!

[Dave B]

They obviously found it impossible to carry on without Bob Holness.

[RS]

Karen got £50 of HMV vouchers for Christmas. We thought it odd that someone would buy HMV vouchers in the first place - and fifty quids worth! And that she had best spend them before they go under.

Well she's spent £15 of them. And she's going into town to try and spend the rest today but I wouldn't be surprised if they refuse to take them.

Edit: It seems they have stopped taking vouchers :( . £35 lost perhaps.

HMV have now started taking vouchers again.

[Mark]

Wonderful!