Your ideas to fix Indycar

[NY2IA]

I have been a quiet participant and follower of this forum. I am not naive to see that our open wheeled series has been declining in numbers. But I believe most sports and entertainment go through decline unless they are kept fresh and updated. And the current times require quicker updates as attention spans appear to be getting shorter. What I notice from some of these forums is a sense of doom for our series. I want to send out a challenge to all of you to offer your ideas to update the series, teams, drivers, etc. For example, does Indycar need to make bigger stars out of the drivers and how? How do we get more mass media's attention? I wonder if we present ideas, who will be listening and where they go? thanks.

[Rollo]

2WD and almost Formula Libre.
Let the cars have a maximum of 600bhp as measured at a control diff housing but after that, give everyone a free run to build whatever the hell they like.

I wanna see what happens when engineers go to Crazy-Go-Nuts-University and spread engineering madness all over.

[BDunnell]

But I believe most sports and entertainment go through decline unless they are kept fresh and updated. And the current times require quicker updates as attention spans appear to be getting shorter.

I don't actually believe this to be true. Name a successful sport in which the rules and regulations are constantly chopped and changed.

[SoCalPVguy]

Anything is just rearranging the deck chairs of the Titanic as long as ICS is saddled with the obscure cable TV exposure. In addition, the changing demographics towards an electronic society versus a motorized society are against motor sports entirely. Racing is being thrown under the global warming bus as well as Agenda 21 which demands that no one will even have a car let alone be able to race them. I think that a new all electric formula would catch on however.

[Rollo]

I don't actually believe this to be true. Name a successful sport in which the rules and regulations are constantly chopped and changed.

Formula One.

[zako85]

2WD and almost Formula Libre.
Let the cars have a maximum of 600bhp as measured at a control diff housing but after that, give everyone a free run to build whatever the hell they like.

I wanna see what happens when engineers go to Crazy-Go-Nuts-University and spread engineering madness all over.


Considering that the teams recently unanimously voted down the idea of using even custom aero kits, I don't see how this idea will fly. With regards to technical specifications, I think in the short term we need to get them to accept the aero kits. For the longer term, we need to get rid of Dalara's exclusive monopoly on chassis IMO.

[C3PO]

- better tv package
- more american drivers
- more ovals
- better looking cars
- aero kits
- more manufacturer

[heliocastroneves#3]

- better tv package
- more american drivers
- more ovals
- better looking cars
- aero kits
- more manufacturer
That's where the IRL was made for, right? And now? We don't have enough American drivers and BY FAR not enough ovals... :/

[BDunnell]

Formula One.

We as enthusiasts may know about the changes to F1, but most casual viewers won't have a clue.

[wedge]

I don't actually believe this to be true. Name a successful sport in which the rules and regulations are constantly chopped and changed.

NASCAR - whatever you think of the rule changes its still the top form of motorsport in the US.


We as enthusiasts may know about the changes to F1, but most casual viewers won't have a clue.

I wonder if people within F1 realise they are shooting themselves in the foot?

Sebastian Vettel - David Lettermans The Late-Show - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3hr2PV40z0#t=6m10s)

or is it because some viewers are lazy or really find the technical intricacies off putting?

BBC commentators needed to explain British Grand Prix in more detail - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/5603184/BBC-commentators-needed-to-explain-British-Grand-Prix-in-more-detail.html)

Not so brilliant BBC exposed by losing out in race for World Athletics Championships - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympics/athletics/8684455/Not-so-brilliant-BBC-exposed-by-losing-out-in-race-for-World-Athletics-Championships.html)


Regards to OP - a voodoo doll of Tony George would help.....

[SoCalPVguy]

I laugh at these guys that say MORE ovals is an answer... LOLOL.. the last thing ICS needs is more ovals, don't you remember, breaking off of CART to an ALL oval series is what started the decline. Americans think ovals = nascar. More Phoenix's at TV rating 0.1 and 10,000 spectators- yeah that's a fix.

[bricarr2]

Sadly, the list is long idk where to begin. I wrote on the tv deal now on the AR1 home page. When I began researching I knew it was bad, but it turned out to be so much worse than I thought.

[call_me_andrew]

the last thing ICS needs is more ovals, don't you remember, breaking off of CART to an ALL oval series is what started the decline.

An all road course breakaway series would have had the exact same effect.

[Rex Monaco]

Saving the series is futile. Every ounce of energy should be focused on saving the Indy 500. If the Indy 500 dies, then they might as well sell the track to ISC and call it a day. It's sad that the Brickyard 400 will be the megalomaniacs only lasting accomplishment.

[C3PO]

I laugh at these guys that say MORE ovals is an answer... LOLOL.. the last thing ICS needs is more ovals, don't you remember, breaking off of CART to an ALL oval series is what started the decline. Americans think ovals = nascar. More Phoenix's at TV rating 0.1 and 10,000 spectators- yeah that's a fix.

IndyCar was mostly all oval series over 70 years. The decline started when IndyCar turn an f1 ladder in the mid 80s.

[DBell]

IndyCar was mostly all oval series over 70 years. The decline started when IndyCar turn an f1 ladder in the mid 80s.


Funny, the rise in attendance, TV ratings, and overall popularity of the sport that went on from the 80's into the mid 90's seem to indicate growth during that time, not a decline.

I don't understand why those who want to go back to before CART came into existence aren't happy. Before CART, you had a series that was completely centered around one race, along with some other races that no one paid any attention to. That is what you have now. Welcome to the 1970's.

[C3PO]

Funny, the rise in attendance, TV ratings, and overall popularity of the sport that went on from the 80's into the mid 90's seem to indicate growth during that time, not a decline.

I don't understand why those who want to go back to before CART came into existence aren't happy. Before CART, you had a series that was completely centered around one race, along with some other races that no one paid any attention to. That is what you have now. Welcome to the 1970's.

And where is the chimpCARt now? ;)

[DBell]

Funny, the rise in attendance, TV ratings, and overall popularity of the sport that went on from the 80's into the mid 90's seem to indicate growth during that time, not a decline.

I don't understand why those who want to go back to before CART came into existence aren't happy. Before CART, you had a series that was completely centered around one race, along with some other races that no one paid any attention to. That is what you have now. Welcome to the 1970's.


And where is the chimpCARt now? ;)

Long gone. Along with series like Can-Am and Group C sports car racing, great fun while it lasted, but now only memories.

Another thing those 3 series have in common is, though they've been gone for a long time, their current TV ratings are only .13 worse than the current IndyCar ratings. I'm sure they are keeping a spot warm next to them in oblivion for IndyCar. ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

And where is the chimpCARt now? ;)

The owners merged Champ Car with the IRL. How did that work out? ;)

[C3PO]

The owners merged Champ Car with the IRL.

Merged? How many chimp car team still in the IndyCar? 1 or 2? It wasn't a real merger, Chimpycar simply died, because nobody watched it.

[garyshell]

Enough with the "chimp" references.

I'll say no more.

Gary

[DBell]

Merged? How many chimp car team still in the IndyCar? 1 or 2? It wasn't a real merger, Chimpycar simply died, because nobody watched it.

Hmm,

Champcar simply died, because nobody watched it'

IRL simply died, because nobody watched it.

IndyCar simply died, because nobody watched it.

Amazing how many open wheel series you can plug into that sentence and have it be true.

[SoCalPVguy]

An all road course breakaway series would have had the exact same effect.

Correct. A balanced series: street, road, large super speedways and short ovals is about the one thing that the series has going for it - but more ovals would be a disaster

[Jag_Warrior]

Merged? How many chimp car team still in the IndyCar? 1 or 2? It wasn't a real merger, Chimpycar simply died, because nobody watched it.

And how many of the original IRL teams are in the series now? Give it up, dude. That song has grown old & tired now.

Look amigo, the OP wanted suggestions on what could be done to fix the series as it stands now. CART went bankrupt. CCWS was a sad shadow of what CART was, so was the IRL and so is Indy Car. I shouldn't have to waste my time presenting data which supports that factual conclusion. And I'm not going to waste my time rehashing ancient history with you. In case you haven't noticed, there are only a handful of people left on this (and every other Indy style) board who even care anymore. We're making every attempt to keep caring, but it ain't easy - and comments like you're making really don't help. Believe me.

The TV ratings now barely rival a bad, late night infomercial - they are no better than Champ Car's. This series has NEVER turned a profit. 17 consecutive quarters of losses is probably a record in the world of business... so I'm sure that 17 years has got to be worthy of a Guinness Book record of some sort. It is (by definition) a failed business model. The public has tuned out and turned off. So what purpose is there in discussing the gallons of milk that have been spilled over the past 17 years or so? Do you truly believe that will fix anything??? Really?!

The only idea that I have now (after 10+ years of repeating what I thought were decent, rational ideas) is to find a new, wealthy benefactor, maybe from the high tech sector. Someone who thinks cars and racing are cool. Someone who has the money and the desire to spend about $100 million over the next 5-7 years to rebuild this trainwreck. Probably need to set up a side fund to pay some world class drivers from F1 and NASCAR, since nobody gives a rat's hairy brown butt about the drivers who are in the series now - well except for the people who think that Danica is still an IRL/IndyCar driver. :rolleyes:

[nigelred5]

IndyCar was mostly all oval series over 70 years. The decline started when IndyCar turn an f1 ladder in the mid 80s.

If that's what you want, that's fine, but you might as well not even bother with a network television contract, and those Dallaras are going to look really weird running backwards. TG should have adopted the gold crown car when he created the IRL if he was so convinced that's what everyone wants. The all oval IRL didn't suceed.

[C3PO]

The all oval IRL didn't suceed.

IRL was far more succesful than current CC 2.0. Since the IndyCar and the CC "merged" and the schedule full off boring street wreckfests the viewership fall every year.

[Starter]

IRL was far more succesful than current CC 2.0. Since the IndyCar and the CC "merged" and the schedule full off boring street wreckfests the viewership fall every year.
The IRL did OK during the first couple years after the split, as did CART. Over time since then though, both CART then CC as well as the IRL had substantial drop offs. Now we have today's attendances. It can be attributed to many things - poor TV availability; uninteresting cars; unknown (to the general public) drivers; poor marketing; etc. The biggest issue, IMO, is a switch in viewing habits and attitudes among the group that used to be the target demographic for auto racing. For someone to suggest that the problem is not enough ovals, too many streets or ugly cars is foolish. Those may each be a small part of the problem, but "small" is the operative word here. Even the juggernaut know as NASCAR is finding it tough going now. They have dumb cars, but they DO have major TV; known star drivers; major sponsorship -- AND, except for a couple races, they run on ovals.

So in conclusion, I'd say your premise is deeply flawed.

[Spafranco]

I loved CART. It was noisy (something the TV guys could do is not mute the engine sounds) fast , sexy and exciting. Now, it is boring even for me that goes to the race sites first thing each day.

Ever go to a race and once the anthem has finished along come the F-18's or 16's.

Well, one day I was at my one and only NASCAR race at Michigan and they had a B-17 following the F-18's. It was slow and cumbersome. I loved seeing it as it means so much to the country. But, to use it's makeup, mechanically and aesthetics it was not a pretty plane. Slow but could get the job done.

Now look at the F-18's, Noisy, fast , totally sexy and spectacular. I also love the B-17. My point is that the sexy beast aspect has to be promoted.

Has anyone ever seen the ad in Europe, I believe Tissot runs it where there is a camera behind a crowd of people in the stands. It's a practice session

with one car on track. You hear it but don't see it. The sound gets louder and the people stretch their necks to see the car. It has rained also.

The all of a sudden this screeching spray passes and then it's gone. The crowd erupts with euphoria. Thing is, the car was not seen. It was just noise and the spray and the unbridled speed of an F1 car.

[NY2IA]

Thanks for the ideas to fix Indycar. I appreciate we can learn from the past but we are looking forward! I watched a TV commerical last evening for the Honda SI. They included video of Indycar in it. Sponsors-how about including Indycar in your ads? How about the Drivers seen in print and television commericals? (Helio dancing; formerly Danica). How about Penske using his fleet of rental trucks to have Indycar images plastered on them? Where is Verizon using Indycar in their ads? The list goes on.... Yes, some of these ideas may seem ridiculious, but we need to be thinking outside the box.

[call_me_andrew]

Correct. A balanced series: street, road, large super speedways and short ovals is about the one thing that the series has going for it - but more ovals would be a disaster

Quick survey: does anyone actually care about the distinction between a road course and a street course?

[garyshell]

Yes, I do. One has proper runoff areas, allowing for a bit more bravado in out braking maneuvers. The other doesn't. To me it makes a BIG difference.

Gary

[Starter]

Quick survey: does anyone actually care about the distinction between a road course and a street course?
Yes, but I'm probably in the minority. That's not to say I dislike one more than the other. It's just I appreciate what it takes to be competitive on each, much like the difference between an oval and a road.

[Jag_Warrior]

Thanks for the ideas to fix Indycar. I appreciate we can learn from the past but we are looking forward! I watched a TV commerical last evening for the Honda SI. They included video of Indycar in it. Sponsors-how about including Indycar in your ads? How about the Drivers seen in print and television commericals? (Helio dancing; formerly Danica). How about Penske using his fleet of rental trucks to have Indycar images plastered on them? Where is Verizon using Indycar in their ads? The list goes on.... Yes, some of these ideas may seem ridiculious, but we need to be thinking outside the box.

I don't think your ideas are ridiculous at all. And I agree that in order to get anything done (at this stage), thinking outside the box is exactly what it's going to take.

Lack of sponsor activation is certainly an issue. Possibly you remember the days when Zanardi, Montoya, de Ferran and others were featured in national ads... that didn't just get shown during races. FedEx and Honda were especially good at doing fun ads which had broad appeal. Back in the day, back when Rusty Wallace was in the Miller Lite sponsored Winston Cup car and Bobby Rahal was in the Miller Lite sponsored CART IndyCar, there was a plan floated to have them swap cars for a promo. My understanding is that Rahal was willing to go for it but Wallace would not. As Penske owned the majority of Wallace's car and he had teams in both CART and NASCAR, seems like he could have made it happen. But Penske has never really gone out of his way to feature the series or his drivers in ads... in fact, I don't think he's ever done any ads - although I think he did have some giant IndyCar decals, showing the race cars, on some of his Penske rental trucks (haven't seen any in years, so I don't know what he dies now). He has been instrumental in getting certain company sponsors involved, but it was usually, primarily to his benefit. So it didn't happen.

So with all that said, we should ask, why do companies become involved in racing series? They do it to help themselves (increase exposure and the chances of selling more products or services). They don't do it to help the series... unless there is some sort of friendship or family connection (and that's usually the ride-buyers). As this series has plummeted in popularity, it's become harder to find companies who will do anything more than write a check. Getting them to write the check and activate that sponsorship, featuring the series or drivers in ads, has become all but impossible. The sad fact is, so few people these days would even know anything about what was in the ad.

An idea that I've had since this form of racing (whether Champ Car or IRL) began falling in popularity: the series should pay certain high profile sponsors to become involved. Maybe not cover all of the costs, but maybe 50/50 or 60/40 just to get them onboard and also pay a portion of the costs for them to activate that sponsorship. Who? I don't know. How about some "beer wagon wars" like we used to have? Say, the Budweiser car vs. the Miller Lite car vs. the Coors Lite car vs. the Heineken car? Computer company wars, mobile phone wars, watch wars, etc.?

The problem with all of our ideas (that would actually have some effect) is that they'll cost money. And the question becomes, who will write the checks? The sponsors don't see the sponsor exposure value any longer and the series owners now seem tired of taking multi-million dollar annual losses keeping this thing afloat. So they're now running it on the cheap.

[jarrambide]

Quick survey: does anyone actually care about the distinction between a road course and a street course?

I do, huge difference between one and the other.
Just for the record, places that were constructed for racing but are not racing venues all year long (they are usually parks and the public gets to use the road for running and/or skating/using a bike) I don't consider them street courses but road courses.

[Wilf]

Yes, I do. One has proper runoff areas, allowing for a bit more bravado in out braking maneuvers. The other doesn't. To me it makes a BIG difference.

Gary

Mistakes should have consequences. Too many times the proper runoff areas allow a driver to continue whereas the same mistake on a street course has the driver coming home on a hook. False bravado is going for it because the risk is minimized.

The curbs keep getting lower, smoother and they keep adding paving on the exits of the turns. Put curbs on the apex and exit of the turns, make the drivers race on the track. It should be about precision, all the time; no oops, oh well.

Don't get me wrong, yes I am an oval fan, but there is no prettier venue than Road America, but too often putting a wheel wrong does not even slow the driver.

[call_me_andrew]

Yes, I do. One has proper runoff areas, allowing for a bit more bravado in out braking maneuvers. The other doesn't. To me it makes a BIG difference.

Gary

Laguna Seca is owned by the Monterey County Parks Department making it technically a street course. The same can be said for Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve.

I suppose the Daytona Beach Course could be classified as a street course and an oval.

[nigelred5]

Quick survey: does anyone actually care about the distinction between a road course and a street course?


That's an affirmative for me as well, though I prefer to call them temporary courses. Long Beach and Baltimore are not the same as Road America and Watkins Glen. Shoot, LB and Bmore are very different from St Pete and Edmonton and we call them all street courses. Houston is different from all of them as IIRC its all parking lots and access roads. I think Baltimore is actually the only one that is 100% streets. Pit lane is the only part that is a parking lot. Even the pit strait is a public road.

[nigelred5]

Laguna Seca is owned by the Monterey County Parks Department making it technically a street course. The same can be said for Circuit Gilles-Villeneuve.

I suppose the Daytona Beach Course could be classified as a street course and an oval.

Laguna is in a park, however it's a proper natural terrain road course. I don't believe it's ever open to regular traffic. CGV and Belle Isle are on public park roads and parking lots and used as city streets the other 360 ish days a year.

[kalevich1957]

You can start by adding back

Cleveland (make it the last race, crazy racing to have a title decided)

Michigan
Road America

Laguna Seca
Australia
Japan (road course)
Montreal


You can get rid of

Iowa
Texas
Milwaukee



Do not have many 2 week breaks between races

Two race weekend does not work for me

Think about Europe latter

Making the racing like it was everything else can and will fall into place

[Chris R]

As someone said in one of these posts - the ideas are much easier than the funding. We need a wealthy benefactor to make things happen and said benefactor needs to have an iron fist in running the series and keeping the teams in line. The benefactor also needs to be fair enough that the team owners know they are getting a fair deal....

Specifically, DIVERSITY is what actually grew the series. The only time in the history of AOWR when the "Champcar" part of the AOWR ladder even approached mainstream acceptance AS A WHOLE was the CART era when you had an impressive mix of courses, cars, engines, nationalities, sponsors, etc. Anyopen who thinks that the series of the 70's was more successful only has to watch a few Youtube races to see that the attendance, product, etc. was no great shakes then either....

The Indy 500 has always been popular and the dirt ovals of the mid-West have always been popular, albeit on a much smaller and more localized scale - but the rest of AOWR has been on the margins for its entire existence (with the possible exception of the teens and 20's when it was all "new") with the exception of the CART era.

I am not suggesting that we need to re-create CART because one cannot ignore that the underlying key to the success of CART was free flowing money from "sin advertising" since that era allowed the cigarette companies in particular little other options for advertising....

So, it gets back to the need to a wealthy benefactor with no place else to spend their money....

Since that is not likely to happen, I suggest downsizing the entire series and expectations around it. Accept the current status as a sport on the margins and take the repercussions of that acceptance and then begin to re-build a fan base the old fashioned way: word of mouth and by providing value and something unique. We need to stop comparing this series to a past that hardly ever existed. The series needs to acknowledge that all past business models are outmoded (and that the only one that was really successful involved a cash infusion that is no longer available). The series needs to embrace its marginality nad use that as a promotional tool. The series needs to acknowledge the changes in media and work in truly innovative ways to reach its audience through ever evolving "new media"...

Overall, the past was neither as good nor as bad as many seem to want to believe.

[ICWS]

I think IndyCar made a mistake in resigning with ABC/ESPN for 5 races each year in addition to NBC sports instead of signing with NBC and their cable networks (NBC Sports, USA Network, Universal) for the entire season. I think we can all agree that NBC Sports provides far better race coverage than ABC/ESPN, and so I don't understand why they didn't decide to sign with the NBC network due to this, and the fact that they wouldn't have to compete with NASCAR on the same network.

With regards to scheduling races, although in a perfect world we would have an even distribution of superspeedways, short tracks, road courses and street circuits, it's clear most oval tracks don't help IndyCar with respect to attendance. However, I do think IndyCar should consider going to oval tracks that don't have more than 1 NASCAR Cup race per year like Kentucky and Chicagoland. For me, I'd like to see those two tracks, along with tracks like New Hampshire, Michigan, and Phoenix, be added to the current slate of oval tracks (Indianapolis, Texas, Milwaukee, Iowa, Pocono, Fontana). I know that IndyCar struggled with attendance the last times they went to those tracks, but I believe if they scheduled those tracks during weekends with appropriate weather they could get fair attendance. In addition, I would like to see IndyCar race at the ovals at Lausitzring and/or Rockingham Motor Speedway and provide itself as a real alternative to Formula 1 in Europe. I realize this appears to be wishful thinking, but I would appreciate it if IndyCar would consider these venue options.

Now, with road courses/street courses, the main suggestion I would have is for IndyCar to go back to traditional tracks (Elkhart Lake, Portland, Cleveland, etc.) and consider racing at Sebring and/or Road Atlanta. They could add those races with St. Petersburg, Long Beach, Sao Paulo, and Toronto. I'm not a big fan of street course races, so if were up to me, I would drop the races at Detroit, Baltimore, and Houston. Of course, we would see how the Houston race does and then I may reconsider my feelings towards that race. I'm also not really a big fan of the races at Sonoma, Mid-Ohio, and Barber, because of how narrow those tracks are, although I'd be willing to keep Barber because of its attendance. I would rather see road course races at Mexico City, Watkins Glen, and Montreal be added in place of those races.

The other main thing IndyCar should do is start and end the season earlier. Ideally, IndyCar would start the season the weekend after the Super Bowl and end the weekend before the NFL regular season begins. This would help with TV ratings and give the series some relevance during the dog days of summer for American sports, when Major League Baseball and NASCAR would be the main competition. If IndyCar added the races I recommended, they could begin their season with the warm weather races like Phoenix, Fontana, Sao Paulo, St. Petersburg, Sebring, Road Atlanta, and Mexico City and establish some momentum early on before they head to the Indianapolis in May.

[Starter]

I think IndyCar made a mistake in resigning with ABC/ESPN for 5 races each year in addition to NBC sports instead of signing with NBC and their cable networks (NBC Sports, USA Network, Universal) for the entire season. I think we can all agree that NBC Sports provides far better race coverage than ABC/ESPN, and so I don't understand why they didn't decide to sign with the NBC network due to this, and the fact that they wouldn't have to compete with NASCAR on the same network.
If I recall correctly, there were no other offers on the table. Or at least none with close to the same compensation package as that offered by ABC.


With regards to scheduling races, although in a perfect world we would have an even distribution of superspeedways, short tracks, road courses and street circuits, it's clear most oval tracks don't help IndyCar with respect to attendance. However, I do think IndyCar should consider going to oval tracks that don't have more than 1 NASCAR Cup race per year like Kentucky and Chicagoland. For me, I'd like to see those two tracks, along with tracks like New Hampshire, Michigan, and Phoenix, be added to the current slate of oval tracks (Indianapolis, Texas, Milwaukee, Iowa, Pocono, Fontana). I know that IndyCar struggled with attendance the last times they went to those tracks, but I believe if they scheduled those tracks during weekends with appropriate weather they could get fair attendance. In addition, I would like to see IndyCar race at the ovals at Lausitzring and/or Rockingham Motor Speedway and provide itself as a real alternative to Formula 1 in Europe. I realize this appears to be wishful thinking, but I would appreciate it if IndyCar would consider these venue options.
To consider those options, you first need a promoter who wants to host a race. Not all of those mentioned do.


Now, with road courses/street courses, the main suggestion I would have is for IndyCar to go back to traditional tracks (Elkhart Lake, Portland, Cleveland, etc.) and consider racing at Sebring and/or Road Atlanta. They could add those races with St. Petersburg, Long Beach, Sao Paulo, and Toronto. I'm not a big fan of street course races, so if were up to me, I would drop the races at Detroit, Baltimore, and Houston. Of course, we would see how the Houston race does and then I may reconsider my feelings towards that race. I'm also not really a big fan of the races at Sonoma, Mid-Ohio, and Barber, because of how narrow those tracks are, although I'd be willing to keep Barber because of its attendance. I would rather see road course races at Mexico City, Watkins Glen, and Montreal be added in place of those races.
The same comment applies as above. Also, Baltimore was one of the better attended races last year.


The other main thing IndyCar should do is start and end the season earlier. Ideally, IndyCar would start the season the weekend after the Super Bowl and end the weekend before the NFL regular season begins. This would help with TV ratings and give the series some relevance during the dog days of summer for American sports, when Major League Baseball and NASCAR would be the main competition. If IndyCar added the races I recommended, they could begin their season with the warm weather races like Phoenix, Fontana, Sao Paulo, St. Petersburg, Sebring, Road Atlanta, and Mexico City and establish some momentum early on before they head to the Indianapolis in May.
An early season start is definitely an idea worth considering.

[ICWS]

If I recall correctly, there were no other offers on the table. Or at least none with close to the same compensation package as that offered by ABC.


To consider those options, you first need a promoter who wants to host a race. Not all of those mentioned do.


The same comment applies as above. Also, Baltimore was one of the better attended races last year.


An early season start is definitely an idea worth considering.

I'll admit to not remembering what the specifics where in regards to the ABC/ESPN deal compared to other deals offered, if there were any. It just seemed like it would make perfect sense for IndyCar to commit fully to NBCUniversal and their subsidaries considering the quality coverage they already provide and, as I mentioned, they wouldn't be competing against NASCAR on the same network, and could potentially cross-promote their races during broadcasted NHL games, Triple Crown horse races, and PGA tournaments on NBC.

In regards to race promoters, that's the unfortunate situation for IndyCar, because I believe the series can provide a good product at some of these tracks, yet as you mentioned not all of those promoters want IndyCar there. That's why I would like the series to take matters in their own hands and get those involved in the series with an active interest and deep enough pockets to promote races, like how Michael Andretti promotes the Milwaukee race.

And I agree that Baltimore has good attendance, but for the sake of having a good racing track, I would exclude it. Of course, for now IndyCar has to have tracks like Baltimore and Barber where the on-track product isn't so great, but the attendance is better than other races.

[Chris R]

I agree about the TV package - but I believe it was a case of beggars can't be choosers.... In the long haul, it may have been more prudent to take the smaller pay package from NBC to have a unified/committed TV partner....

As far as tracks are concerned, Starter is right - there has to be mutual interest... I am also not so sure the venues mentioned were any better than what we have - some of those tracks were left because Indycars "outgrew" them. Others did not have the local economy to support Indycar or anything else for that matter....

As for the season. Indycar needs to be Indycar. They should start and end at the best time for Indycar - not because of the NFL or anyone else. I tend to think they ought to race every other weekend from March 1 to Nov 15 more or less....

I also think they may be well served by downplaying the idea of a series championship (not eliminating it - just make it less of a focus) and increase the focus on RACES - it is a subtle difference - but rather than reward the teams for seasons - increase the payout for each race. I am thinking that one of the problems with "competing" with other sports is that if you end the season by focusing on the championship you are defacto making it the most important race of the season and if nobody watches for whatever reason you have marginalized a whole season worth of work in less than 2 hours..... I don't have any great ideas - it just seems to me that the end of the season race being both important and more or less a bust is just bad.....

[Chris R]

I'll admit to not remembering what the specifics where in regards to the ABC/ESPN deal compared to other deals offered, if there were any. It just seemed like it would make perfect sense for IndyCar to commit fully to NBCUniversal and their subsidaries considering the quality coverage they already provide and, as I mentioned, they wouldn't be competing against NASCAR on the same network, and could potentially cross-promote their races during broadcasted NHL games, Triple Crown horse races, and PGA tournaments on NBC.

In regards to race promoters, that's the unfortunate situation for IndyCar, because I believe the series can provide a good product at some of these tracks, yet as you mentioned not all of those promoters want IndyCar there. That's why I would like the series to take matters in their own hands and get those involved in the series with an active interest and deep enough pockets to promote races, like how Michael Andretti promotes the Milwaukee race.

And I agree that Baltimore has good attendance, but for the sake of having a good racing track, I would exclude it. Of course, for now IndyCar has to have tracks like Baltimore and Barber where the on-track product isn't so great, but the attendance is better than other races.

I hear you about the tracks - but I really don't think some of the "classic" tracks provided much better racing - it jsut seems that way - or we only remember the best anyway. Baltimore had some good racing this year as did Barber. Laguna has typically been a snooze fest... I think Portland produced a few good races - but most were only ok.... I am jsut thinking the tracks are not as bad as it might seem....

[00steven]

Go back to what worked, simple as that.

[Starter]

Go back to what worked, simple as that.
When was the last time it worked?

[ICWS]

I hear you about the tracks - but I really don't think some of the "classic" tracks provided much better racing - it jsut seems that way - or we only remember the best anyway. Baltimore had some good racing this year as did Barber. Laguna has typically been a snooze fest... I think Portland produced a few good races - but most were only ok.... I am jsut thinking the tracks are not as bad as it might seem....

Fair point on Baltimore and Barber. I would agree that Laguna Seca, despite its history, didn't provide that great of an on-track product. I just think Portland would be a good addition since it is not a NASCAR market, and so it seems advantageous to have a race there where they wouldn't compete with NASCAR for fans.

[ICWS]

As for the season. Indycar needs to be Indycar. They should start and end at the best time for Indycar - not because of the NFL or anyone else. I tend to think they ought to race every other weekend from March 1 to Nov 15 more or less....

I disagree with respect to you view on the starting/ending of the season. If the series wants to improve T.V. ratings they need to do their best to avoid having to compete with other sports that would influence their viewership. If IndyCar, as you suggested, schedule their races into September through November, I think that they might as well run most of those races on Saturdays to avoid the NFL. Of course, they then would also be competing with college football on Saturdays. So either way, I think the best option for the series to improve T.V. ratings would be starting the season after the Super Bowl and before the Daytona 500 and ending towards the start of the NFL regular season. This of course would require the series to move and add warm weather races towards the beginning of the calendar.

[Jag_Warrior]

When the IRL/ICS signed the TV deal (unless there's been some sort of more recent update), NBC had no connection to Versus. While it might sound like a better option than ABC/ESPN now, signing such a deal would have put the Indy 500 on a channel that most people had never heard of at the time. And since no one else wanted any races at all, it was either take what was being offered by ABC/ESPN and Versus, or pay for airtime on Speed or some other outlet. And with "the family" already trying to cut corners and pinch pennies, paying for anything more than paperclips seems to be an issue these days.

I like some of your other ideas though.

[ICWS]

When the IRL/ICS signed the TV deal (unless there's been some sort of more recent update), NBC had no connection to Versus. While it might sound like a better option than ABC/ESPN now, signing such a deal would have put the Indy 500 on a channel that most people had never heard of at the time. And since no one else wanted any races at all, it was either take what was being offered by ABC/ESPN and Versus, or pay for airtime on Speed or some other outlet. And with "the family" already trying to cut corners and pinch pennies, paying for anything more than paperclips seems to be an issue these days.

I like some of your other ideas though.

IndyCar signed an extension with ABC/ESPN in August of 2011 that keeps the Indy 500 and 4 other races on the network through 2018 (Sports Media Watch (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2011/08/abc-extends-indycar-deal-through-2018/)). In February of 2011, Comcast (the owner of Versus) acquired a majority share in NBC Universal and integrated Versus and their other sports channels into the NBC Sports division (Comcast renames Versus to NBC Sports Network - Philly.com (http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-01/business/29838839_1_golf-channel-nbcuniversal-outdoor-life)). So NBC did have a connection with Versus by the time ABC/ESPN's deal was to expire with IndyCar.

[Wilf]

IndyCar signed an extension with ABC/ESPN in August of 2011 that keeps the Indy 500 and 4 other races on the network through 2018 (Sports Media Watch (http://www.sportsmediawatch.com/2011/08/abc-extends-indycar-deal-through-2018/)). In February of 2011, Comcast (the owner of Versus) acquired a majority share in NBC Universal and integrated Versus and their other sports channels into the NBC Sports division (Comcast renames Versus to NBC Sports Network - Philly.com (http://articles.philly.com/2011-08-01/business/29838839_1_golf-channel-nbcuniversal-outdoor-life)). So NBC did have a connection with Versus by the time ABC/ESPN's deal was to expire with IndyCar.

When did the deal clear the anti-trust folks and when did they announce VERSUS would become NBC Sports? What does NBC have scheduled for Memorial day?

[00steven]

When was the last time it worked?1990's CART

[Chris R]

1990's CART

yes, BUT, you cannot change two important variables that make that model not ork in today's world: 1. No cigarette advertising $$ 2. The internet and general decline of "traditional" media.....

This is why we can't "go back" to the all so successful CART model - no matter what we do there is no cash cow to milk and the media model of today does not work well for motorsports (at least nobody has figured out how to make it wok yet)

[FIAT1]

Your ideas to fix Indycar ? Simple, open competition of inovation to build cars that people want to see. Spec garbage is hard to sell.

[bricarr2]

As bad as ABC/ESPN coverage is , being on network garners 3-4 times the audience as NBCSN.

And having just got finished researching all this, IndyCar had little choice if someone was going to pay them for the TV deal. There is some hope for NBCSN expanding its scope, but I got to admit, its a reach.

[Starter]

And having just got finished researching all this, IndyCar had little choice if someone was going to pay them for the TV deal. There is some hope for NBCSN expanding its scope, but I got to admit, its a reach.
Agree. Long term it may be a winner, but right now it's nowhere.

[anthonyvop]

I think IndyCar made a mistake in resigning with ABC/ESPN for 5 races each year in addition to NBC sports instead of signing with NBC and their cable networks (NBC Sports, USA Network, Universal) for the entire season. I think we can all agree that NBC Sports provides far better race coverage than ABC/ESPN, and so I don't understand why they didn't decide to sign with the NBC network due to this, and the fact that they wouldn't have to compete with NASCAR on the same network.

NBC Sports didn't even exist when the TV deal was signed. It was Versus Network that was owned by Comcast which later purchased NBC. Versus was the only other Network that actually offered any compensation. Everyone else wanted IndyCar to pay.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't actually believe this to be true. Name a successful sport in which the rules and regulations are constantly chopped and changed.
F1! About every three years they reinvent the series...maybe tweaks, but after another 3 the engine sizes change, the tires change, the wing sizes change. Indy car hasn't done anything so radical for almost a decade and then last year goes to a new plaform....that isn't why they are in trouble.

[bricarr2]

Yes. I tried to point out in the article that the problem is not the TV contract, per se. The problem is IndyCar put itself in a position, where it had no choice but to sign on with Versus now NBCSN. The TV contract is merely a sympton, granted a very painful one, of a larger problem.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That's where the IRL was made for, right? And now? We don't have enough American drivers and BY FAR not enough ovals... :/

The IRL had nothing but American ovals and American drivers for the most part in its early days and it is why we are where we are...

[bricarr2]

If IndyCar wants more ovals they need to take an equity stake in some tracks. Nashville and Gateway are perfect examples of good tracks that have fallen on tough times. IndyCar could get both for pennies on the dollar.

Of course, all of this presumes they have a clue how to run a racing business. I probably shouldn't make such presumptions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The problem is as it has been stated is the past is the past. There is no going back at this point. CART was a rip roaring ratings success and was fun to watch, but the sponsors were there through the breweries and tobacco companies. The latter cannot advertise now, and the former have bailed on the series.

Do we need spec cars? I say no, but the cost cutting has pretty much forced it on the series. I think for the general racing public, it isn't a deal breaker.

I think the real issue now for me is the schedule. They start in March, which is fine after a fashion, but there is a time in the summer where they race every weekend and my interest and attention does focus in...and then they take a big break again. NASCAR I have always believed has a huge advantage in that they race every weekend pretty much. It is like the NFL, you know Sunday is race day....and it is a consistent product. Indycar isn't that...it will run 3 or 4 weeks in a row, then take 2 off....and it just to me never gets momentum for the viewers. So a condensed intense schedule with maybe one week off before Indy and then go full bore until September is to me a good idea.

I have always thought a more friendly racing fan for this type of series is in Europe. The series never dedicated itsself to going there religiously, and for any kind of results cultivating sponsorships and fans in Europe, this is a must. I am not talking 10 races, but maybe 2. It wont take much..just make them matter and be at the same time. That is I think something that can be done down the road.

I think the TV contract is hurting the series immensly but I don't see how they get out from under the worst aspects of it, but I think they have to. ESPN/ABC to me killed any use I had for the old IRL. I wasn't a fan of the series the way I was of CART, but I would watch until I couldn't take the half assed job they did covering the sport. They just don't care ABOUT THE PRODUCT!!

I cannot state that enough. I put a lot of the problems with this sport on the coverage and attention. ESPN after the split started to treat this series with a bit of disdain. I have never felt the commentators or the slants of the broadcasts did anything to help the casual fan, or the serious fan. \\

As for where the cars race, well that's simple. Anywhere there is fans willling to pay and watch, and anywhere a promotor is willing to dig in and help the series rather than stand there letting the series do the heavy lifting.

As for the last issue, and the toughest one of all, Tell the Hulman George Cabal to take a long walk off a short pier and have them sell the whole thing, lock, stock and spare parts. Get this series and maybe Indy as well in the hands of someone who has the energy and can put forward a vision and STABILITY. The firing of Randy Barnard was seen as necessary by some owners, but the reality remains he was credible with a lot of the fan base. The buck needs to stop somewhere with a solid but tough owner/administrator who will stay the course and make things conform or get out. The France Family ran NASCAR in this manner, and it went a long way to giving them credibility with racing fans, and most of their issues in the last decade or so have come about when the France's messed with the stability.

[BDunnell]

I have always thought a more friendly racing fan for this type of series is in Europe. The series never dedicated itsself to going there religiously, and for any kind of results cultivating sponsorships and fans in Europe, this is a must. I am not talking 10 races, but maybe 2. It wont take much..just make them matter and be at the same time. That is I think something that can be done down the road.

I don't think this should be near the forefront of any thoughts of the future, I'm afraid. There will only ever be a niche audience for American motorsport, be it open-wheel or NASCAR, on this side of the Atlantic.

[00steven]

yes, BUT, you cannot change two important variables that make that model not ork in today's world: 1. No cigarette advertising $$ 2. The internet and general decline of "traditional" media.....

This is why we can't "go back" to the all so successful CART model - no matter what we do there is no cash cow to milk and the media model of today does not work well for motorsports (at least nobody has figured out how to make it wok yet)
What does that have to do with the car and tracks the series races at? That's what I'm talking about...

[Chris R]

I am saying that the cars and tracks are not the biggest problem and that fixing those things does no good without fixing the rest of the issues.....

[call_me_andrew]

I think we're all overlooking the simple soultion here: add 5 million new fans.

[fan-veteran]

A reality is:
1 - there are much more possibilities for entertainment and relaxing today than 20 or even 15 years ago, i mean media oriented.
2 - motorsports practically lost their technical advances charisma, lost it more than 10 years ago. There are no "new records" , the technical stuff and appearance today progress very slowly, there are simply no possibilities for them.
3 - there are many 'racing events' to call them, accumulated in the past years which could satisfy almost any interest in motorsports, very few fresh and new stuff could be seen.
4 - the public attitude towards dangers in motorsports (which is intrinsic in motorsports and makes a part of it excitement) has become much more restricted.

Those are reasons i can recognize at a glance and are common.

The question should be - what kind of auto racing product a public would be interested in or/and would want to watch.

[bricarr2]

Also, while a lot of these things we're mentioning (tracks, better looking cars, records, etc.) are relevant, IndyCar's biggest problem is their inept management. The poor management means that none of these issues are ever properly addressed.

[DBell]

Also, while a lot of these things we're mentioning (tracks, better looking cars, records, etc.) are relevant, IndyCar's biggest problem is their inept management. The poor management means that none of these issues are ever properly addressed.

You said it all with those 2 sentences. That is exactly why I have no hope for IndyCar. The management, or rather, mis-management of IndyCar makes all other talk of what can be done to improve the series irrelevant because that people who run the series won't follow through with any of those ideas. IndyCar needs a sharp management team with a well thought out plan and a very sizable budget to have any chance of pulling themselves out of the pit they have put themselves in. They have none of those things.


I noticed you have made 23 post on 6 years bricarr2, but you make them count when you do decide to post. :up:

[Jag_Warrior]

I think we're all overlooking the simple solution here: add 5 million new fans.

That's more of a goal than a solution though.

[Wilf]

You said it all with those 2 sentences. That is exactly why I have no hope for IndyCar. The management, or rather, mis-management of IndyCar makes all other talk of what can be done to improve the series irrelevant because that people who run the series won't follow through with any of those ideas. IndyCar needs a sharp management team with a well thought out plan and a very sizable budget to have any chance of pulling themselves out of the pit they have put themselves in. They have none of those things.


I noticed you have made 23 post on 6 years bricarr2, but you make them count when you do decide to post. :up:

By all accounts IndyCar completed the best season in many years and the new management of IndyCar has been in place less than 120 days while the CEO of The Hulman & Company has been there less than a month and yet you have no hope for Indycar.

[garyshell]

By all accounts IndyCar completed the best season in many years and the new management of IndyCar has been in place less than 120 days while the CEO of The Hulman & Company has been there less than a month and yet you have no hope for Indycar.


Well, after all said management and CEO are responsible for removing the man who by all accounts is responsible for much of why Indycar just completed the best season in many years. I'd say that doesn't bode to well for any hope for Indycar. I hope they prove us wrong, but so far they are off to a VERY poor start.

Gary

[nigelred5]

When did the deal clear the anti-trust folks and when did they announce VERSUS would become NBC Sports? What does NBC have scheduled for Memorial day?

The re-naming of Versus was pretty well known long before the deal actaully cleared the antitrust.

[Wilf]

Well, after all said management and CEO are responsible for removing the man who by all accounts is responsible for much of why Indycar just completed the best season in many years. I'd say that doesn't bode to well for any hope for Indycar. I hope they prove us wrong, but so far they are off to a VERY poor start.

Gary

When an outsider loses his base he returns to being an outsider. He was brought it to improve the financials. The trend line went the wrong way and they had to cancel a scheduled event. There is a familiar ring to that.

He tried; God did he try. Unfortunately, many of his efforts did not produce the desired results.

[garyshell]

When an outsider loses his base he returns to being an outsider. He was brought it to improve the financials. The trend line went the wrong way and they had to cancel a scheduled event. There is a familiar ring to that.

He tried; God did he try. Unfortunately, many of his efforts did not produce the desired results.

And never mind the ones that did produce results? He wan't given near enough time or authority to do what they asked him to do.

Gary

[F1fanru]

Probably need to set up a side fund to pay some world class drivers from F1 and NASCAR, since nobody gives a rat's hairy brown butt about the drivers who are in the series now - well except for the people who think that Danica is still an IRL/IndyCar driver. :rolleyes:

Would be a good start, should of happened long ago.

[anthonyvop]

And never mind the ones that did produce results? He wan't given near enough time or authority to do what they asked him to do.

Gary


And which ones produced results to the bottom line?

[garyshell]

And never mind the ones that did produce results? He wan't given near enough time or authority to do what they asked him to do.

Gary


And which ones produced results to the bottom line?

What bottom line are we chasing here? The most recent quraterly P&L or a long term vision of the bottom line? Trouble is that the folks at the helm were looking at the former and should have been more concenred about the longer term, which is where I think Randy had his eye.

Gary

[EagleEye]

1-An apology.

RB wanted to issue some form of apology for the split from the start in hopes this would have help reset the fan base. An apology to the fans, sponsors, and teams would have gone a long way.

2-Promote the series!

TV ratings, and having them go up will solve many of the issues mentioned. Ratings=money! Another Superbowl weekend and there were no Indycar commercials on Saturday or Sunday leading up to the game. LOTS of Pro Bowler Tour commercials on ESPN Sunday. A captive audience on just about every channel (ABC, ESPN, CBS, NBC...) no commercials for Indycar, or commercials from current sponsors. Yet they pay a PR firm from the East Coast......

3-One Leader for the long haul

Stop the revolving door, and theatrics played in the media. Pick one guy, and stick with him/her/it. Fine KK, TG and others who were cowardly enough to meet every race weekend in KK's motor coach. You have a problem, be man enough to take it directly to the top, and put in a formal complaint. Set five points to increase TV ratings.

4-Start the season earlier, prime time event

Have a race the day before the Superbowl or the night before the Daytona 500. Make it a big event, start on a road-course for 40 laps, and finish on an oval for 40 laps. Prime time and network TV.

5-Promote the series II!

The racing was great, but like a bear in the woods nobody was there to see it. Split commercial costs with top sponsors, Verizon, Shell, Target, Firestone Honda and Chevy. Let them film at the speedway....get the word out to the common man/woman.

[anthonyvop]

What bottom line are we chasing here? The most recent quraterly P&L or a long term vision of the bottom line? Trouble is that the folks at the helm were looking at the former and should have been more concenred about the longer term, which is where I think Randy had his eye.

Gary

RB was brought in to fix the series. Under him Attendance and TV numbers for events either dropped or remained virtually stagnant in almost 2 and a half years with no sign of it improving.

He did manage to move IndyCar from a Dallara Spec Series to.............a Dallara Spec Series, raised costs and alienated the owners.

Some call the new engine package a positive...I don't. He did allow Penske to bring in Chevy but he is also responsible for courting Lotus.

No. The Owners weren't looking at Quarterlies. They were looking at over 2 years of failure with nothing at all pointing to an improvement.

[Don Capps]

RB was brought in to fix the series. Under him Attendance and TV numbers for events either dropped or remained virtually stagnant in almost 2 and a half years with no sign of it improving.

He did manage to move IndyCar from a Dallara Spec Series to.............a Dallara Spec Series, raised costs and alienated the owners.

Some call the new engine package a positive...I don't. He did allow Penske to bring in Chevy but he is also responsible for courting Lotus.

No. The Owners weren't looking at Quarterlies. They were looking at over 2 years of failure with nothing at all pointing to an improvement.

Stick a fork in it...

[Blancvino]

Don't be surprised if the series is disbanded after the Indy 500. And 2014 only has 1 race, the Indy 500. I have no inside info, just going with my gut.

[EagleEye]

Don't be surprised if the series is disbanded after the Indy 500. And 2014 only has 1 race, the Indy 500. I have no inside info, just going with my gut.

This won't happen, despite how poorly the series handles its affairs at times.

We'll have a full season of racing, in 2013, even after the 500. We should also have a series in 2014 and through 2018 (and beyond). One needs to keep track of what transpires after the current NBCSports contract tuns out.

I hope no one freaks when Izod goes away, but the thing to alos watch is if GM and or Honda go away. I'm not at all saying they are, but if that were to happen, then your scenario above could become reality.

[FIAT1]

Continuing with spec formula is a disaster and it's a matter of time before it's all over.

[EagleEye]

We do not have the TV ratings or money, to do anything but have a spec series. There is no other way for now, but we can only hope to increase ratings so we can try to have something like we did. Teh owners just spent a year baning Dallara to get a savings of $50K/entry....and RB was booted becuase of the $10 million deficit.

I'm not saying thats right, but it is the way it is. speaking of which, Gordon Kirby has some great articles about the spilt on his "The Way It Is" blog. You might have to go back a ways, but he has some great information there.

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is: Archive List (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/the_way_archive.html)


I'd give everything to see how the cars/series would look had we never had a split. My guess is it would be quite spectacular...

[EagleEye]

Here is a good (sad) one by Kirby:

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2009/the_way_it_is_no187.html)

.....his article correclty predicted the (sad) future.

[elan 02]

Horse power ( 100 plus) and a Drop dead ,best designed ever, where the F did that come from look. And please drop Dallara , I do not care how much TG and BB get under the table.
LOOKS,LOOKS, LOOKS ! and HP

[Blancvino]

Barnhart to be named IndyCar CEO - What's that you hear? Why that is the woosh of a flushing loo.

[FIAT1]

We do not have the TV ratings or money, to do anything but have a spec series. There is no other way for now, but we can only hope to increase ratings so we can try to have something like we did. Teh owners just spent a year baning Dallara to get a savings of $50K/entry....and RB was booted becuase of the $10 million deficit.

I'm not saying thats right, but it is the way it is. speaking of which, Gordon Kirby has some great articles about the spilt on his "The Way It Is" blog. You might have to go back a ways, but he has some great information there.

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is: Archive List (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/the_way_archive.html)


I'd give everything to see how the cars/series would look had we never had a split. My guess is it would be quite spectacular...

Thanks for the link, and I like this one very much

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2013/the_way_it_is_no371.html)

[EagleEye]

I heard the exact opposite on Monday. I'm going to guess there is another internal power struggle....not good.

[Starter]

I heard the exact opposite on Monday. I'm going to guess there is another internal power struggle....not good.
I suspect that if BB is back in charge, then Beau will be out. Don't see someone with BB's ego allowing the person who upstaged him to be around. That would be a disaster if Beau was gone. The first credibility for Race Control in many years.

[Don Capps]

Gordon Kirby - Auto Racing - The Way It Is (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2013/the_way_it_is_no371.html)

Another polite way of saying to get ready to stick a fork in it....

[EagleEye]

Another polite way of saying to get ready to stick a fork in it....

The car count is looking good, at 25 (if Dragon and Coyne run two, not counting 'Dinger) and I'm looking forward to seeing how these two race/weekend events pan out.

There are some good stories, SDS/TK, Changes at AA, SMP's adding Vautier, 'Dinger, and no Lotus!

And, we get Turbo in July!

We'll be alright for this coming year (fingers crossed!).

[FIAT1]

The car count is looking good, at 25 (if Dragon and Coyne run two, not counting 'Dinger) and I'm looking forward to seeing how these two race/weekend events pan out.

There are some good stories, SDS/TK, Changes at AA, SMP's adding Vautier, 'Dinger, and no Lotus!

And, we get Turbo in July!

We'll be alright for this coming year (fingers crossed!).

What's the story with Katherine legge?

[EagleEye]

I heard the exact opposite on Monday. I'm going to guess there is another internal power struggle....not good.

AR1 now saying this rumor was false. I must admit when someone emailed me the rumor, I was shocked, as this was not what I was hearing. One of the attributes they are looking for is someone with TV/Media experience, which would seem logical.

I have no idea what happned to Legge at Dragon other than there appears to a be a dispute on just who brought Truecar to the team, KL or JP. Coyne still has two tba's....so who knows, but I would guess Wilson and Briscoe would be a top the pecking order.

[garyshell]

More about Katherine Legge and her argument with Jay Penske. Kate is pissed!

Legge reacts to Dragon dismissal - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/legge-reacts-to-dragon-dismissal/article/280269/)

Gary

[EagleEye]

More about Katherine Legge and her argument with Jay Penske. Kate is pissed!

Legge reacts to Dragon dismissal - Racer.com (http://www.racer.com/legge-reacts-to-dragon-dismissal/article/280269/)

Gary

I am a bit surprised she made her decision to pursue Dragon through legal means, public. That could be a career killer no matter if she has a case or not. I’m not sure what other car owner would want to put her in a car after this. I think it would have been best for her to resolve this legally, behind closed doors.

[FIAT1]

Another display of quality people involved in the series. Easier and esier to give up on this jokers. Looking from the point of human sense of decency and fairness, the way how they conduct business in that operation is completely wrong.

[anthonyvop]

We do not have the TV ratings or money, to do anything but have a spec series.

I hear that all the time and yet the ALMS, Grand-Am, WC and even the SCCA are doing OK.

Open up the rules.

Let Penske, Ganassi and Andretti fight for the championship and the rest of the teams battle for the crumbs. It is what we have now anyway.

[anthonyvop]

I am a bit surprised she made her decision to pursue Dragon through legal means, public. That could be a career killer no matter if she has a case or not. I’m not sure what other car owner would want to put her in a car after this. I think it would have been best for her to resolve this legally, behind closed doors.


What career? She stunk it up in the DTM and failed to impress anyone in IndyCar.

Apparently she was offered a buy out by TRUEcar and she refused. She should have taken the money and gone to NASCAR Trucks

[Starter]

What career? She stunk it up in the DTM and failed to impress anyone in IndyCar.

Apparently she was offered a buy out by TRUEcar and she refused. She should have taken the money and gone to NASCAR Trucks
If she was in a contractual situation with TRUEcar, it was her option whether or not to accept a buyout. If she refused, then TRUEcar was obligated to fulfill the terms of the contract. If those terms included her in the car for the 2013 season, then she will prevail in any court of law. (I've used a lot of "ifs" since none of us have read the contract.)

[anthonyvop]

If she was in a contractual situation with TRUEcar, it was her option whether or not to accept a buyout. If she refused, then TRUEcar was obligated to fulfill the terms of the contract. If those terms included her in the car for the 2013 season, then she will prevail in any court of law. (I've used a lot of "ifs" since none of us have read the contract.)

You don't think that TRUEcar had an "out" written into the contract? I Seriously doubt that they would dismiss her without that.

Also one would think that a driver would take the money and not get a reputation as a litigious sort instead of wanting to stay on a team that obviously didn't want her further eroding her reputation as a driver.

[Starter]

You don't think that TRUEcar had an "out" written into the contract? I Seriously doubt that they would dismiss her without that.

Also one would think that a driver would take the money and not get a reputation as a litigious sort instead of wanting to stay on a team that obviously didn't want her further eroding her reputation as a driver.
What part of "(I've used a lot of "ifs" since none of us have read the contract.)" did you not understand?

[heliocastroneves#3]

IRL was far more succesful than current CC 2.0. Since the IndyCar and the CC "merged" and the schedule full off boring street wreckfests the viewership fall every year.
Wow, I thought it and you said it. I have nothing against road/street courses but I can remember when we had full grandstands at Nashville, Kentucky, Chicagoland and Homestead far before the merge.. Today? We lost the most great ovals because the races were terribly attended and guess when this started to happen? Indeed, after the merge and it became worse when Randy Bernard came in..

[FIAT1]

Wow, I thought it and you said it. I have nothing against road/street courses but I can remember when we had full grandstands at Nashville, Kentucky, Chicagoland and Homestead far before the merge.. Today? We lost the most great ovals because the races were terribly attended and guess when this started to happen? Indeed, after the merge and it became worse when Randy Bernard came in..

Easy there irl fan, those tracks you mentioned where never full or profitable. Only reason some of the people showed up where free tickets as part of nascar package. I live in north side of Chicago and Milwaukee mile is closer for me and better track for Indycar than nascar track in Joliet il in the middle of nowhere. Stop this old repetitive statements on the old formula that does not work instead focus on some new creative ideas like making car more interesting to drive and watch. It is not a type a track that is a problem its a spec club racing and amateur low tech car that needs to change.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Easy there irl fan, those tracks you mentioned where never full or profitable. Only reason some of the people showed up where free tickets as part of nascar package. I live in north side of Chicago and Milwaukee mile is closer for me and better track for Indycar than nascar track in Joliet il in the middle of nowhere. Stop this old repetitive statements on the old formula that does not work instead focus on some new creative ideas like making car more interesting to drive and watch. It is not a type a track that is a problem its a spec club racing and amateur low tech car that needs to change.

Champ Car's very modern high-tech car didn't make their series popular either. In fact, already around 2003, IRL was far better than the rival series and it was back in then better than it was today. We had three manufacturers, two different chassis and some great racing going on. Full grandstands because of free tickets as a part of the NASCAR package? Explain then why the IRL already had full grandstands at Kentucky, before NASCAR Sprint Cup started to race there?

[FIAT1]

Explain then why the IRL already had full grandstands at Kentucky, before NASCAR Sprint Cup started to race there?

Freebies and giveaways from sponsors. Remeber all those red heats that is now just plain aluminum? You should come, buy the ticket and help the cause instead writing ridiculous statements when it comes to present Indycar situation. Plenty empty stands now ,explain that. irl was better? Yep,that's why everything went down the hill with that creation ,and a genius who started it all.

[anthonyvop]

Merged? How many chimp car team still in the IndyCar? 1 or 2? It wasn't a real merger, Chimpycar simply died, because nobody watched it.

No Champ Car team of any consequence except for Penske, Ganassi, Andretti, KV, Rahal Letterman & Dale Coyne......

..........But don't let a silly thing like facts get in the way of your reality.

[mr nobody]

A better TV package would be a huge step in the right direction. Returning to Michigan would also be great as well. Beyond that, I think a return to a "run what you brung" engine would be a good thing. No more engine leases and the engine swould be based off of a pre approved list of supplier parts and the teams would be responsible for building/rebuilding their own engines. Three Dyno test/research sessions per team (meaning Penske would get three just like KV would get three just like ECR would get three) and that's it. If the series mandated a specific list of parts, nothing exotic like titanium this or carbon fiber that, it would bring down costs on the costliest thing in the car.

[SoCalPVguy]

A better TV package would be a huge step in the right direction. Returning to Michigan would also be great as well. Beyond that, I think a return to a "run what you brung" engine would be a good thing. No more engine leases and the engines would be based off of a pre approved list of supplier parts and the teams would be responsible for building/rebuilding their own engines. Three Dyno test/research sessions per team (meaning Penske would get three just like KV would get three just like ECR would get three) and that's it. If the series mandated a specific list of parts, nothing exotic like titanium this or carbon fiber that, it would bring down costs on the costliest thing in the car.

OMG !!!!!!!!!!!!! An on topic post !!!!!!!!!! WT...H... are we gonna do with this ?????????? You ARE new aren't you ? LOLOLZZZ

[markabilly]

yep, the split occurred and it does not matter which series was better, because like a house divided that could not stand...the result was only a question of time. :rolleyes:

So what is left of open wheel racing, with all the new bodywork, now looks more like a sports car series than open wheel racing......




Suggestions:

Must fix the bodywork so that there is close racing, with drafting and passes, and not some artificial tricks like silly rules, crummy tires and so forth. A great TV package is not going to do any good, if the racing is not there.

And need to develope some American names that make the general public feel an affinity for the drivers at the races as in the old days (these races are being held in the USA, after all). Now you have some british drivers that nobody ever heard of...winning the Indy 500..so who cares??


Face it, the only "name" the series had was Danica, who went off to Nascar. Debate how bad she was all you want to.....can not argue with you there.

But hell, she had the name that the AMERICAN public recognized like they used to recognize Foyt, Andretti, Unser, Parnelli Jones, Sneva.......

[Jared East]

A better TV package would be a huge step in the right direction. Returning to Michigan would also be great as well. Beyond that, I think a return to a "run what you brung" engine would be a good thing. No more engine leases and the engine swould be based off of a pre approved list of supplier parts and the teams would be responsible for building/rebuilding their own engines. Three Dyno test/research sessions per team (meaning Penske would get three just like KV would get three just like ECR would get three) and that's it. If the series mandated a specific list of parts, nothing exotic like titanium this or carbon fiber that, it would bring down costs on the costliest thing in the car.

I never understood why spec cars had to be made out of Carbon Fiber seems counter productive in the cost saving purpose.

[Starter]

I never understood why spec cars had to be made out of Carbon Fiber seems counter productive in the cost saving purpose.
They are more sophisticated and who wants to give that up? :D But, more importantly, they are much, much safer than aluminum monocoque or tube frame chassis.

[FoytFan14]

These are all valid, costs, engine disparity, lack of Americans, lack of a real network until recently. But what we need that no one is mentioning for marketing is Marco Andretti to become his dad or granddad. Let's be honest, even if we get another 4 time winner, we probably will not make the cover of Sports Illustrated. Everyone here has a valid point but Marco winning consistenly and Winning Big ( Indy 500) would do wonders similar to Danica Mania. Marco gets you a Sports Illustrated Cover, Marco winning gets you main stream faster. Texas was the number 2 attended race by far, and because of conflicts we moved our series championship from there. Move that back, get 90K fans in the stands to see you. market , get costs, get sponsoers all of that, but one of the quickest ways to become main stream would be for the one household name to win, and carry our open wheel banner. That kind of name recognition, would go a long ways towards speeding up our beloved open wheel series recovery.

[FIAT1]

These are all valid, costs, engine disparity, lack of Americans, lack of a real network until recently. But what we need that no one is mentioning for marketing is Marco Andretti to become his dad or granddad. Let's be honest, even if we get another 4 time winner, we probably will not make the cover of Sports Illustrated. Everyone here has a valid point but Marco winning consistenly and Winning Big ( Indy 500) would do wonders similar to Danica Mania. Marco gets you a Sports Illustrated Cover, Marco winning gets you main stream faster. Texas was the number 2 attended race by far, and because of conflicts we moved our series championship from there. Move that back, get 90K fans in the stands to see you. market , get costs, get sponsoers all of that, but one of the quickest ways to become main stream would be for the one household name to win, and carry our open wheel banner. That kind of name recognition, would go a long ways towards speeding up our beloved open wheel series recovery.

Only one problem, Marco is not a winner and
cars make the stars not the other way around. Formula junior won't do a thing and I don't care who drives it or promotes it

[garyshell]

cars make the stars not the other way around.

Not in this century. When was the last time you saw the Red Bull RB5, the Ferrari F138 , the Penske Ford Fusion, the Tony Stewart Chevrolet SS etc. mentioned in the main stream media? What you did see was Vettle, Alonso, Keselowski or Stewart. Sure you might have seen the cars in some racing related blog or magazine, but the folks who read THOSE are not who needs to targeted if you want to REALLY grow a series. You need to bring back the non-gearhead fan.

Gary

[FIAT1]

Not in this century. When was the last time you saw the Red Bull RB5, the Ferrari F138 , the Penske Ford Fusion, the Tony Stewart Chevrolet SS etc. mentioned in the main stream media? What you did see was Vettle, Alonso, Keselowski or Stewart. Sure you might have seen the cars in some racing related blog or magazine, but the folks who read THOSE are not who needs to targeted if you want to REALLY grow a series. You need to bring back the non-gearhead fan.

Gary

Really? Winning in formula 1 gives you instant recognition and stature as one of the best.Why? Not because of red bull sponsor on the car ,but because of skill and talent needed to tame the sophisticated racing beast of F1 car period. Vettel and Alonso would be nothing if not for F1 and if they race and won in nascar ,indycar, etc would mean nothing.
Please don't give me nascar example of staged infomercials ,staged soap opera phony fights etc. F1 is respected world championship and I guarantee you if they go spec and have bumpers it would go down like Indycar. How do you bring bring people to watch Indycar? Marco? Graham? We are Indy? Harlem shake? How do you promote club racing? I'm sure they would love to know your ideas over at Indy because whatever they tried in last 17 years is not working. I say must be the ugly slow cars that anyone with few bucks can drive.

[Granatelli]

I got news for you. Indy cars are harder to drive than f1, the series races on more diverse tracks and the indy car champ gets the champ title from winning on his own not some manufactured team orders not allowing team mates to race each other. FYI Sato is the first f1 driver to win an indy car race in a long long time. Heck F1 doesn't even take on anything but tires in their pit stops. Meh, ill take indy car and its fan friendly drivers over F1 any day.

[Starter]

I got news for you. Indy cars are harder to drive than f1, the series races on more diverse tracks and the indy car champ gets the champ title from winning on his own not some manufactured team orders not allowing team mates to race each other. FYI Sato is the first f1 driver to win an indy car race in a long long time. Heck F1 doesn't even take on anything but tires in their pit stops. Meh, ill take indy car and its fan friendly drivers over F1 any day.
I can certainly understand a preference for IndyCar. Unfortunately, you have a couple of facts wrong. For instance, Sato was a backmarker in F1, so I'm not sure I'd put him up there for comparison, not to mention that he's been out of F1 for quite some time now. Driving spec, low horsepower cars isn't what I'd call a challenge to drivers no matter what surface or track type they run on. The team orders part I'll buy. When F1 did refuel during a race, their stops were much shorter than IndyCar, though they did use pressurized rigs instead of gravity flow.

[giucanbera]

Indycar will not get any bigger if they just ADD your favorite circuits to the future schedule. Neither aerokits or more faster cars (Remember that Dario and Tony ASKED for a little bit slower car because of Dan's death)

The real ideas to fix the series are:
1) ESPN for all races with NO conflict with Nascar
2) Get a new titlle sponsor with lots of extra money (and 'know how') to invest and promote the series. (like RedBull, CocaCola, HotWheels)

[Starter]

Indycar will not get any bigger if they just ADD your favorite circuits to the future schedule. Neither aerokits or more faster cars (Remember that Dario and Tony ASKED for a little bit slower car because of Dan's death)

The real ideas to fix the series are:
1) ESPN for all races with NO conflict with Nascar
2) Get a new titlle sponsor with lots of extra money (and 'know how') to invest and promote the series. (like RedBull, CocaCola, HotWheels)
A title sponsor who activates more than Izod ever did, though they did do a bit in the first year and a half, would be a plus. Also difficult to come by given the audience/market they would be reaching. A little chicken with your egg anyone?

[ChicagocrewIRL]

From a marketing standpoint I say rent out kiosks at every major shopping mall within 300 miles of an IndyCar event and have video screens play highlights and run driver profiles with cool music and maybe a DW12 mockup . Then have website, track and ticket info for all the events for that particular geographic area's IndyCar events.

People need to see how great this product is. They really do.

This shouldn't be that expensive to do.

[AutoSociale]

The only way to fix Indycar is to sell it. There seem to be too many decisions made for personal reasons by the current owners, rather than what's good for the business.

[anthonyvop]

I got news for you. Indy cars are harder to drive than f1, the series races on more diverse tracks and the indy car champ gets the champ title from winning on his own not some manufactured team orders not allowing team mates to race each other.

Keep repeating that over and over again and then maybe somebody besides the 250k who watch it on TV and the 20K average race attendees will believe you.

BTW Mike Conway was a back Marker in GP2 and he won a IndyCar race......so what does that tell you?

[C3PO]

Keep repeating that over and over again and then maybe somebody besides the 250k who watch it on TV and the 20K average race attendees will believe you.

BTW Mike Conway was a back Marker in GP2 and he won a IndyCar race......so what does that tell you?

Back markers win races in GP2?

[giucanbera]

How about sell the Tittle of the Indy500? (Lucas Oil Indy500) Or even the IMS name (RedBull Indianapolis Motor Speedway)
It could bring some extra money into the series and the IMS ehh??... This could be a good thing, right?

[garyshell]

BTW Mike Conway was a back Marker in GP2 and he won a IndyCar race......so what does that tell you?


Without knowing the particulars of who he was driving for and the competitiveness of the equipment he had in GP2, what does that tell us? Zero, nada, zilch, zip. But I am pretty sure you knew that already.

Gary