another school shooting in U.S. of A. :(

[race aficionado]

I'm sure I am opening yet another "gun's right" shoot for all - but this reality just plain sucks.

:mad:

Elementary school shooter in Newtown, Conn. reported dead (http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/14/school-shooting-connecticut/1769367/)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-connecticut-school-shooting-20121214,0,4678476.story

They are calling it the second worst school shooting in this countries history.
Virginia Tech in 2007 where 32 people were killed and 17 others injured

[Dave B]

I know how this will end, both here and in real life.Pointless bickering, thread closed; a vague promise to act from the President followed by the square root of sod all. Then it'll all happen again. :(

[race aficionado]

I know how this will end, both here and in real life.Pointless bickering, thread closed; a vague promise to act from the President followed by the square root of sod all. Then it'll all happen again. :(

:(

:mad:

:(

[Knock-on]

Sadly, it is a price America has to pay for the right to own guns and it's for America to decide whether the price is too expensive or not.

That discussion will go on but for now, we should just remember that yet again, a murderer has taken innocent young lives for their own criminally selfish reasons. It's hopelessly sad but we will have another one in 6 months or so.

[Alfa Fan]

American society has deemed that allowing this to happen is acceptable. Why should we get upset about it if they do not?

[Mark]

The best post you have yet made here :)

[gloomyDAY]

27 people have been killed, and 20 of the killed are children. I'm completely gutted and in shock.


American society has deemed that allowing this to happen is acceptable. Why should we get upset about it if they do not?You've hit the nail on the head. Nothing has been done in terms of legislation to stop this from happening again. Nothing! The NRA is just too entrenched into the political system and making any move on gun control is almost impossible. Let's list all of the shootings:

- Virginia Tech (two school shootings)
- Aurora, CO (movie theater)
- Oregon (mall shooting)
- Wisconsin (Sikh temple)
- Connecticut (elementary school)

[anthonyvop]

Terrible tragedy.


What needs to be done? Nothing much. Violent crime is down. Has been going down. In fact we in the USA are living in what is probably the safest time in most of our lifetimes.

FBI (http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime)

So Just keep doing what we are doing.

[Mark]

As much as I'd like to disagree you do need to look at the bigger picture...

[gloomyDAY]

What needs to be done? Nothing much. Violent crime is down. Has been going down. In fact we in the USA are living in what is probably the safest time in most of our lifetimes.These shooters have mental illnesses, so I think that psychological background checks should be more stringent.

[anthonyvop]

5 Rules for Coping with Tragedy - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWrsy5wyAnE&feature=share)

[Starter]

These shooters have mental illnesses, so I think that psychological background checks should be more stringent.
A reasonable suggestion.

[race aficionado]

The situation is really messed up in the sense that yes, we get pissed off, even our president says that we have to do something about it, some of us talk about stricter psychological background checks - but the fact is that this country is flooded with hundreds of millions of guns. Nearly half -- 47 percent -- of US homes own a fire arm. That's 120 - 150 million people.


Larry Bodine: Guns in America (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-bodine/guns-in-america_1_b_1746614.html)




Best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns.


That's a lot of guns.


How do we get them out of circulation?


'Beam them out Scotty" would be my answer but that aint happening.

[Roamy]

Sadly, it is a price America has to pay for the right to own guns and it's for America to decide whether the price is too expensive or not.

That discussion will go on but for now, we should just remember that yet again, a murderer has taken innocent young lives for their own criminally selfish reasons. It's hopelessly sad but we will have another one in 6 months or so.

I suppose you would have preferred explosives - your comment is unwarranted rubbish

[Roamy]

The situation is really messed up in the sense that yes, we get pissed off, even our president says that we have to do something about it, some of us talk about stricter psychological background checks - but the fact is that this country is flooded with hundreds of millions of guns. Nearly half -- 47 percent -- of US homes own a fire arm. That's 120 - 150 million people.


Larry Bodine: Guns in America (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-bodine/guns-in-america_1_b_1746614.html)




Best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns.


That's a lot of guns.


How do we get them out of circulation?


'Beam them out Scotty" would be my answer but that aint happening.

Race the problem is much deeper that guns. If you take the guns they will use explosives like in the middle east and parts of EU. First check in all of these horrific events should be a thorough investigation of drug usage especially meth. Remember Race guns are banned in Mexico - 60,000 dead because we want drugs. I hope we get a very good report on this cowards background.

I pray for the families

[race aficionado]

Race the problem is much deeper that guns. If you take the guns they will use explosives like in the middle east and parts of EU. First check in all of these horrific events should be a thorough investigation of drug usage especially meth. Remember Race guns are banned in Mexico - 60,000 dead because we want drugs. I hope we get a very good report on this cowards background.

I pray for the families

You are right fousto, the problem is bigger than guns.
This situation has hit me harder than usual. Being a dad could be it, or the fact that this happened close by . . . . The fact is that it is happening too often and we are in a mad, mad, mad world.

[Roamy]

How many young children have been killed by religion. Little children have one thing in common they just like to play and have fun. No matter what race or location. What do we do so wrong in raising our children.

[Rollo]

You are right fousto, the problem is bigger than guns.

Guns help though. I for instance have never heard of a drive-by stabbing for instance.

The problem is indeed bigger than guns. The problem is a basic lack of self-control. Most people have trouble limiting the use of forks near their face.

How come the mythical NRA concealed-carry heat-packing hero never seems to be where the maniac with the assault rifle is?

This is entirely telling:
http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/assets/pdfs/Other-Research/2006InjuryPrevent.pdf
In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards

[anthonyvop]

How come the mythical NRA concealed-carry heat-packing hero never seems to be where the maniac with the assault rifle is?


Gun owners tend to be responsible and law abiding. Most state and localities have strict no-firearms laws for schools. Figure it out yet?

There is a reason why places with strict anti-gun laws like Chicago, Detroit and Oakland have high Violent crime or Murder rates. Criminals are usually cowards. Just like the Newtown shooter. Tough guy attacking an Elementary School.


And for those who say it is an American thing because of our love of freedom.....Forget this one already? Norway massacre: A timeline of the attacks that horrified a nation - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9495025/Norway-massacre-A-timeline-of-the-attacks-that-horrified-a-nation.html)

[BDunnell]

And for those who say it is an American thing because of our love of freedom.....Forget this one already? Norway massacre: A timeline of the attacks that horrified a nation - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/norway/9495025/Norway-massacre-A-timeline-of-the-attacks-that-horrified-a-nation.html)

No, but I have forgotten the regular shootings that occur in Norwegian schools — because they, unlike in the US, have never happened.

[loowisham]

One poster said crime is down in the US. Compared to what? Where on this earth do we see on such a regular basis so many mass shootings. Children are being killed and idiots are still defending the ownership of assault weapons and sales without background checks.
The news tonight stated that people that came to pick up their children a little later than the one's that had survived were met with the news that their little ones were dead. God help those poor kids and their parents.
Bob Costas was correct. There is no excuse for this heavily armed society.
If owning guns made the US safe then it should be the safest place on earth. Unfortunately, it is not and this argument will go on until these cowardly politicians put stringent laws on the books. Both sides of the aisle are to blame.

Little kids may be the one's that had to pay the price to have this country wake up.

[TyPat107]

We had another school shooting here that happened two weeks ago that I don't know if anyone heard about. The college is across the street from my house and the second crime scene was across the street from my work. Kid used a bow and arrow on his father and a knife on the other victim :(
Son kills father inside Casper College classroom (http://trib.com/news/local/casper/son-kills-father-inside-casper-college-classroom/article_66f20112-3bfb-5815-992f-1e868d9c5e75.html)

[Knock-on]

Gun owners tend to be responsible and law abiding. Most state and localities have strict no-firearms laws for schools. Figure it out yet?



You have a valid point here. If Guns are allowed, it seems silly that your not allowed to bring them into School. I don't know if it would deter these murderers but it is more likely that they would be shot dead by their peers before they killed too many of the other Students.

Of course, you run the risk of lots of other shootings with Testosterone fuelled adolescents wandering around with loaded weapons; not something I personally relish the idea of.

But, as I say, it i for America to decide whether the cost of allowing guns to be endemic in society is acceptable and I thank you for your dismissive comments on my previous post :rolleyes:

As for explosives, you are correct. If someone is detirmined enough, I'm sure they can get their hands on explosives but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't explosives subject to control. You cannot go into an explosive shop and walk out with 5kg of C4. This is the difference. You actually have restriction in place and therefore it rarely occurs.

[Dave B]

You have a valid point here. If Guns are allowed, it seems silly that your not allowed to bring them into School. I don't know if it would deter these murderers but it is more likely that they would be shot dead by their peers before they killed too many of the other Students.

This notion keeps getting trotted out: that somehow it's good to have guns because somebody could shoot the gunman. It's never really worked, though, in real life, has it? Besides, is it such a good idea to have even more people firing guns in a school or a darkened cinema?


But, as I say, it i for America to decide whether the cost of allowing guns to be endemic in society is acceptable and I thank you for your dismissive comments on my previous post :rolleyes:
I think they've already decided, it's so engrained into their culture. Gun ownership is a right, healthcare a privilege. What a crazy backwards messed-up country. I do wonder if this could finally be the tragedy that starts the ball rolling, but I'm not hopeful. There'll be more massacres, and more impotent politicians saying that something simply must be done, but they're too in thrall to the gun-nuts and the NRA to actually achieve anything.

To many Americans, protecting the spirit of a two hundred year old rulebook (never mind that it was always a work in progress) is more important than tackling the insane homicide (not to mention suicide) rate.

[BDunnell]

You have a valid point here. If Guns are allowed, it seems silly that your not allowed to bring them into School. I don't know if it would deter these murderers but it is more likely that they would be shot dead by their peers before they killed too many of the other Students.

Of course, you run the risk of lots of other shootings with Testosterone fuelled adolescents wandering around with loaded weapons; not something I personally relish the idea of.

But, as I say, it i for America to decide whether the cost of allowing guns to be endemic in society is acceptable and I thank you for your dismissive comments on my previous post :rolleyes:

As for explosives, you are correct. If someone is detirmined enough, I'm sure they can get their hands on explosives but correct me if I'm wrong but aren't explosives subject to control. You cannot go into an explosive shop and walk out with 5kg of C4. This is the difference. You actually have restriction in place and therefore it rarely occurs.

Perhaps the main worry should be — and I say this with no attempt to sound cheap — the number of nutcases that seem to be produced in the US, who resort to firearms to make a point?

[Starter]

You have a valid point here. If Guns are allowed, it seems silly that your not allowed to bring them into School. I don't know if it would deter these murderers but it is more likely that they would be shot dead by their peers before they killed too many of the other Students.

Of course, you run the risk of lots of other shootings with Testosterone fuelled adolescents wandering around with loaded weapons; not something I personally relish the idea of.
Funny, I don't know of any state where the carry laws apply to minors. Perhaps you assume something not in evidence?

[Rollo]

"Today is not the day to talk about gun control. There is, I am sure, will be, rather, a day for discussion of the usual Washington policy debates, but I do not think today is that day."
- Jay Carney, White House Press Secretary.

Mr Carney is right, that day should have been the day before this happened. The fact that it didn't happen is incredibly disappointing. America will take 3 weeks to flagellate itself, make crying noises, boo hoo hoo and all that, forget about it and then wait another six months when another massacre will occur (in which time another 5750 people will have died because of guns) and we can all go around the merry go round again.

[Starter]

Children are being killed and idiots are still defending the ownership of assault weapons and sales without background checks.
Almost no one is advocating that and you know it.


Bob Costas was correct. There is no excuse for this heavily armed society.
Costas is an idiot. By what standard does a sports reporter, and not a very good one either, have standing to comment on these things? Above the right of every citizen to free speech that is.


Unfortunately, it is not and this argument will go on until these cowardly politicians put stringent laws on the books. Both sides of the aisle are to blame.
Oh yes, blame it on the politicians. They do what those who elect them want them to do. While influence groups can sway votes, if enough people want something done, it will get done or they'd be out of a job. The people have not voted that way.

[ioan]

The situation is really messed up in the sense that yes, we get pissed off, even our president says that we have to do something about it, some of us talk about stricter psychological background checks - but the fact is that this country is flooded with hundreds of millions of guns. Nearly half -- 47 percent -- of US homes own a fire arm. That's 120 - 150 million people.


Larry Bodine: Guns in America (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-bodine/guns-in-america_1_b_1746614.html)




Best estimates are about 45% or 52 million of American households owning 260 million guns.



Bah, just 5 guns per family?
That's nothing around here it's '0', and we are doing fine.

[ioan]

Race the problem is much deeper that guns. If you take the guns they will use explosives like in the middle east and parts of EU. First check in all of these horrific events should be a thorough investigation of drug usage especially meth. Remember Race guns are banned in Mexico - 60,000 dead because we want drugs. I hope we get a very good report on this cowards background.

I pray for the families

Go ahead and pray it will NOT change anything, nothing at all.
You lot should stop sitting on your hands when such things happen regularly. Bunch of hypocrites.

[ioan]

Guns help though. I for instance have never heard of a drive-by stabbing for instance.

The problem is indeed bigger than guns. The problem is a basic lack of self-control. Most people have trouble limiting the use of forks near their face.

How come the mythical NRA concealed-carry heat-packing hero never seems to be where the maniac with the assault rifle is?

This is entirely telling:
http://tobacco.health.usyd.edu.au/assets/pdfs/Other-Research/2006InjuryPrevent.pdf
In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in the 10.5 years afterwards

Exactly.
In a bare hand confrontation the chances to get away alive is so much higher then when both the aggressor and the victim are allowed to have guns, mainly because the victim will be dead long before thinking about his/her own gun.

[ioan]

I think they've already decided, it's so engrained into their culture. Gun ownership is a right, healthcare a privilege. What a crazy backwards messed-up country.

Fully agreed. Absolutely messed up society over there.

[ioan]

Costas is an idiot. By what standard does a sports reporter, and not a very good one either, have standing to comment on these things? Above the right of every citizen to free speech that is.

And by what standard do you have the grounds to comment on Costas? Are you a better sports reporter? :rolleyes:

[loowisham]

Almost no one is advocating that and you know it.


Costas is an idiot. By what standard does a sports reporter, and not a very good one either, have standing to comment on these things? Above the right of every citizen to free speech that is.


Oh yes, blame it on the politicians. They do what those who elect them want them to do. While influence groups can sway votes, if enough people want something done, it will get done or they'd be out of a job. The people have not voted that way.

This post is an absolute disgrace for someone that is moderating a forum. It is written with venom and not even an attempt at sympathy for the many people affected by this horror.

In addition to your comments Mr.Starter could you please explain how Bob Costas is A/ a bad reporter and b/ an idiot. Imagine, he was speaking just two weeks ago about another senseless killing and you once more are pointing the finger at everything but the gun.
As stated in one foreign newspaper Mr Lapierre (sic) of the NRA should be digging all 26 graves personally.

[SGWilko]

I am not convinced that allowing gun ownership is the issue. I don't see the same gun laws in the UK as in the States, but we still have shootings - albeit, thankfully, nothing on a similar scale.

You have to have a combination of gun ownership (legal or not) and a will or desire to commit mass murder.

No-one, in their right mind, would take out classes of kids with a gun.

So, is it a drug/psychological issue that led this terrible tragedy?

As has been mentioned earlier, better more thorough psychological evaluation of the proposed gun holder before granting a license......?

As to how you tackle the drug issue, we have the ongoing debate over here of decriminalising drug use. I don't know if that is a plausible avenue.

All this aside, it is a terrible thing to wake up to on the news, and thoughts go out to all the families.

[ioan]

Well, the guns might be only the tools that make all these killings much more prolific.
The root of the issue is certainly psychological, or maybe drug related, however there are crazy people everywhere not only in the US, yet there are far less shooting of this scale in other countries.
The causes that I can think about right now are two:

1. Either there are so much more crazy people in the US, I doubt this is the case.
2. Owning a gun (or several) makes it so much more easier for this crazy people to go out and realize their 'dreams'.

IMO the gun still plays the most important role in this all affair as it is the tool which makes it possible to kill those people, without it the whole affair would either never happen or it would end after maximum a couple of victims. It is the tool which makes killing easier and less personal as the killer is pulling the trigger from a distance instead of having to get into close contact with the victims. It also allows for a far higher killing rate then any other tools available to population.

Just my 2 cents, but these might be worth quite a few human lives in the long term.

[anthonyvop]

This notion keeps getting trotted out: that somehow it's good to have guns because somebody could shoot the gunman. It's never really worked, though, in real life, has it? ?


.

Actually it does. Millions of times a year. It just isn't covered heavily by the mainstream media because they play politics and suck up to the Police who don't want the public to know that they neither can't nor under any obligation to protect the citizens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

http://gunrightsalert.com/documents/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia_444_A_2d_1.pdf

If if they did have an obligation the average response time is 8 minutes. I for one ain't gonna wait.

[anthonyvop]

I think they've already decided, it's so engrained into their culture. Gun ownership is a right, healthcare a privilege.

We cherish and live FREEDOM. You guys not so much.

[Mark]

That's your choice but I do think that we practice 'freedom' in a different way that's all.

Ultimately you can't have perfect freedom; no laws, no taxes. Government throughout human history has had to impose rules in order to make sure society functions properly.

[Dave B]

Actually it does. Millions of times a year. It just isn't covered heavily by the mainstream media because they play politics and suck up to the Police who don't want the public to know that they neither can't nor under any obligation to protect the citizens.
Aaah, the mainstream media and the police are in a conspiracy. Of course...

[Dave B]

We cherish and live FREEDOM. You guys not so much.
Yay! Dozens of families now have the freedom to choose burial or cremation; pine or oak. :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

As I understand it , handguns are legal , but not in the school .

So here's a question : What makes a school different ?
I'd just like to fully understand the logic involved here .

[ioan]

We cherish and live FREEDOM. You guys not so much.

Tell that to the 20 kids and their families, they will be happy for you.

[Roamy]

As I understand it , handguns are legal , but not in the school .

So here's a question : What makes a school different ?
I'd just like to fully understand the logic involved here .

Bag these laws are for law abiding people. Criminals do not obey laws. PETN is illegal in the Middle East.
Arizona has decided to just say screw it - got a gun - pack it - if you don't want guns inside your place - post a sign.

[Dave B]

Bag these laws are for law abiding people. Criminals do not obey laws.
Did the gunman in this case have any criminal record which would have prevented him obtaining a firearm?

[Roamy]

[quote="Dave B"]This notion keeps getting trotted out: that somehow it's good to have guns because somebody could shoot the gunman. It's never really worked, though, in real life, has it? Besides, is it such a good idea to have even more people firing guns in a school or a darkened cinema?

that is partly because of gun laws. you can own one but it is a hassle to take it anywhere. Here in AZ you can pack open or concealed most places. At the Breakfast cafe everyone is packing. You may get one or two of them but will never get 28 of them. The school shooter broke into the school - had the guard been properly armed and security measures in place the story would be different. In safe areas we tend to let our guard down. I remember running straight to the gate to catch a flight in final boarding. I will agree Europe is probably overall more safe but that will change. Bombings will be more the norm in many places. It would take 10 connecticut's to equal one Spain. It is not the weapon it is the idiot and I don't see a way to control that.

[Roamy]

Perhaps the main worry should be — and I say this with no attempt to sound cheap — the number of nutcases that seem to be produced in the US, who resort to firearms to make a point?

Yes a very interesting point. I would like a indepth drug report to be public on all violent crimes in this country. But we have developed "drug welfare" to keep the ghettos from rioting. Meth users, makers and sellers should be eliminated within 90 days of being found guilty.

[Roamy]

Did the gunman in this case have any criminal record which would have prevented him obtaining a firearm?

he tried to purchase a rifle 3 days prior and was denied. You don't have to register as a criminal so there is no beginning date. I have no problem with background checks but it really solves no problems. You can purchase a firearm straight away from a private party and these cannot be policed. Also rounding up over 300 million guns would be a monumental task if you could ever get it approved. It is probably a good time to start a security company. However most security companies are run incorrectly and the security officer would just be another casualty in cases such as this.

[BDunnell]

I'm fine with not having the freedom to legally own a firearm, thanks.
America doesn't really send the message out to the world that they are free to be honest, although I'm sure its all rosy when you live there and believe it.

anthonyvop is allowed to roam the streets freely in the US. This must say something.

[BDunnell]

I have no problem with background checks but it really solves no problems. You can purchase a firearm straight away from a private party and these cannot be policed.

In that case, what else is to blame other than the fact of people feeling the need to possess firearms?

[BDunnell]

We cherish and live FREEDOM. You guys not so much.

Ah yes, putting things in capitals: it gives your words so much more weight and seriousness, Tony.

Let's not forget, you are a man who either came to Europe with a firearm not licenced for use in the countries in question, or lied about doing so.

[BDunnell]

Costas is an idiot. By what standard does a sports reporter, and not a very good one either, have standing to comment on these things? Above the right of every citizen to free speech that is.

To put it another way: what right does he have to remain silent on the matter? Or, what standing do you have to comment on these things?

[donKey jote]

It would take 10 connecticut's to equal one Spain.
Not a valid analogy Roamy... when have 200 schoolchildren been shot dead in their classrooms in Spain? :cornfused:
1.1 Oklahomas maybe, but this is beyond crazy.

[Roamy]

Not a valid analogy Roamy... when have 200 schoolchildren been shot dead in their classrooms in Spain? :cornfused:
1.1 Oklahoma's maybe, but this is beyond crazy.
well try the train bombing and BTW is an adult life better to take??

[anthonyvop]

That's your choice but I do think that we practice 'freedom' in a different way that's all.


I am sure you are in a country that doesn't have freedom of speech or expression so how would you even know what Freedom truly is?

[gloomyDAY]

well try the train bombing and BTW is an adult life better to take??You're not making any sense. What's a train bombing have to do with a gun-wielding lunatic? I thought that the train bombing in Madrid had to do with the ETAs, and I don't think the perp here in Connecticut had anything to do with a terrorist organization.


I am sure you are in a country that doesn't have freedom of speech or expression so how would you even know what Freedom truly is?I'm not sure what you're ranting about here. If Mark didn't have the ability to freely express himself, then there wouldn't be a post by him here on his forum, which he runs independently from state control.

I think Mark was just stating that he doesn't need a gun to demonstrate his 'freedom' within the UK.

[anthonyvop]

Ah yes, putting things in capitals: it gives your words so much more weight and seriousness, Tony.

Let's not forget, you are a man who either came to Europe with a firearm not licenced for use in the countries in question, or lied about doing so.


As I said many times before. The rights of the individual supersede those of the state. I have a moral right to be able to protect myself, my family and my property. Nothing as criminal and immoral as a government disarming the public will stop me from exercising that right.

[gloomyDAY]

As I said many times before. The rights of the individual supersede those of the state. I have a moral right to be able to protect myself, my family and my property. Nothing as criminal and immoral as a government disarming the public will stop me from exercising that right.What worries me more in USA is that our local police forces are being militarized. I don't think our 2nd Amendment rights are in peril whatsoever.

[BDunnell]

As I said many times before. The rights of the individual supersede those of the state. I have a moral right to be able to protect myself, my family and my property. Nothing as criminal and immoral as a government disarming the public will stop me from exercising that right.

Tony, whenever you write on this subject, you come across to me and many others as quite mad — certainly, not as someone I would trust with a firearm near me.

Oh, and I still don't believe your story about your European visit in the slightest.

[gloomyDAY]

Oh, and I still don't believe your story about your European visit in the slightest.Shed some light on this? Sounds familiar.

[BDunnell]

I am sure you are in a country that doesn't have freedom of speech or expression so how would you even know what Freedom truly is?

It's funny, you know — I have never been stopped from saying anything as a result of a lack of freedom of speech or expression.

[BDunnell]

Shed some light on this? Sounds familiar.

Some time ago, anthonyvop claimed that he had come to Europe with a firearm, not specifically licensed for use in the countries he was visiting, and indeed brandished it during his visit. So, either he is a criminal, or a liar.

[gloomyDAY]

Some time ago, anthonyvop claimed that he had come to Europe with a firearm, not specifically licensed for use in the countries he was visiting, and indeed brandished it during his visit. So, either he is a criminal, or a liar. :laugh:

[BDunnell]

Tony, whenever you write on this subject, you come across to me and many others as quite mad — certainly, not as someone I would trust with a firearm near me.

Actually, I'll rephrase that — for 'a firearm', read 'anything other than rubber implements'.

[anthonyvop]

Tony, whenever you write on this subject, you come across to me and many others as quite mad — certainly, not as someone I would trust with a firearm near me.

Oh, and I still don't believe your story about your European visit in the slightest.

Thats OK I don't believe a lot about you either.

[Roamy]

You're not making any sense. What's a train bombing have to do with a gun-wielding lunatic? I thought that the train bombing in Madrid had to do with the ETAs, and I don't think the perp here in Connecticut had anything to do with a terrorist organization.

I think Mark was just stating that he doesn't need a gun to demonstrate his 'freedom' within the UK.

Oh I get it - we must have different types of funerals - right

[donKey jote]

I thought that the train bombing in Madrid had to do with the ETAs
two small points about Madrid:
a) it was bombings in plural - 4 trains simultaneously hit.
b) the consensus is that it was "islamist terrorism". Only conspiracy theorists still believe ETA had anything to do with it.

But as you say, nothing to do with a gun wielding lunatic.

[Roamy]

Tony, whenever you write on this subject, you come across to me and many others as quite mad — certainly, not as someone I would trust with a firearm near me.

Oh, and I still don't believe your story about your European visit in the slightest.

yes and many states have "stand your ground law" which makes you eligible for a bullet within about 20 feet

[anthonyvop]

BTW



It is federal law that you have to be at least 21 to purchase a handgun in the United States and must show valid ID.

The Shooter was 20

So much for gun control laws.

[SGWilko]

BTW



It is federal law that you have to be at least 21 to purchase a handgun in the United States and must show valid ID.

The Shooter was 20

So much for gun control laws.

I seriously hope the authorities can trace the supplier of the weapon. But this just enforces the point that, legal or not, if someone has the will and the mindset to do something as warped and twisted as this, they will get their gun by whatever means.

I think it was in Hungerford over here this happened a while back, can't remember the guys name.

[Bagwan]

Bag these laws are for law abiding people. Criminals do not obey laws. PETN is illegal in the Middle East.
Arizona has decided to just say screw it - got a gun - pack it - if you don't want guns inside your place - post a sign.

We're not all that different here , as it happens , as we can own , with proper and clean ID and a training course , long guns .
Simply put , though , if you have a handgun , you are a criminal , properly trip permitted , or you're a cop .

It makes things really simple .

At this point I don't own one .
But , I'm moving , at some point soon , out to the new house I'm building , so I'll need a tool for critter control .
A .22 will do . I had a sweet old Cooey when I was a kid .

I guess the question is :"Why would one post a sign inside one's place saying there are no guns allowed ?" .

Why , in fact , would you ban handguns anywhere , especially if they make you feel safe ?

Why are guns not allowed in that school ?

[SGWilko]

Why , in fact , would you ban handguns anywhere , especially if they make you feel safe ?


Of course, if no-one had a gun, then it'd really make you feel safe. Maybe just invest in an electric fence for scary critter control.

[BDunnell]

Why , in fact , would you ban handguns anywhere , especially if they make you feel safe ?

Would you allow absolutely anything that made someone feel safer? There are, after all, a lot of unnecessarily insecure people around. Not once have I ever felt I needed to be in possession of a weapon.

[BDunnell]

I seriously hope the authorities can trace the supplier of the weapon. But this just enforces the point that, legal or not, if someone has the will and the mindset to do something as warped and twisted as this, they will get their gun by whatever means.

I think it was in Hungerford over here this happened a while back, can't remember the guys name.

Michael Ryan.

[BDunnell]

Thats OK I don't believe a lot about you either.

Really?

Do tell us — how did you manage to get the gun through airport security?

[SGWilko]

Would you allow absolutely anything that made someone feel safer? There are, after all, a lot of unnecessarily insecure people around. Not once have I ever felt I needed to be in possession of a weapon.

Even if you did own a gun, and it made you feel safe, what if you are unable to get to it in time if you really needed it to defend yourself from attack? Owning a gun but getting shot while retrieving it defeats the object.

Also, if your house is broken into, say, and the gun is found by the burglar......

Much better to be without a gun.

[SGWilko]

Michael Ryan.

Thanks, can't believe it was so long ago.

[BDunnell]

Even if you did own a gun, and it made you feel safe, what if you are unable to get to it in time if you really needed it to defend yourself from attack? Owning a gun but getting shot while retrieving it defeats the object.

Also, if your house is broken into, say, and the gun is found by the burglar......

Much better to be without a gun.

There are all sorts of 'ifs' and 'buts' attached to ownership and use of a firearm. All the disadvantages far outweigh any spurious ideas of 'freedom' one might have a result of being tooled-up.

[Dave B]

Seems this nutjob used weapons legally held by his mother. US gun controls simply do not work, they make it trivially easy for lunatics to arm themselves. Still: freedom blah blah blah.

[BDunnell]

I think we just have very different societies and its always going to have a clash of opinions because one country is full of citizens that feel they need guns for protection and the other really doesn't have the problem.

I don't think there's a defensible practical reason for gun ownership in the first country you mention.

[BDunnell]

Seems this nutjob used weapons legally held by his mother. US gun controls simply do not work, they make it trivially easy for lunatics to arm themselves. Still: freedom blah blah blah.

I am imagining that anthonyvop is taking a brief break from this thread to go and celebrate his freedom by taking potshots at a Union flag.

[SGWilko]

Its been said before but if you live in a society where guns are common; if you are attacked or burgled, the chances of the individual carrying a gun is higher. If you live somewhere like the UK or somewhere else where gun ownership is restricted, then the chances of getting attacked with a fire arm is rather slim.

My house has a burglar alarm even though there hasn't been a burglary on my estate for over 5 years and that instance didn't involve an occupied premises. I live in a pretty safe area and I'm not generally a paranoid person where I think about remote possibilities or what ifs. Burglars don't tend to carry guns here, of course that doesn't mean there have never been armed robberies here either. Another common example would be If I got into an argument whilst driving (road rage) the chances are the other person won't pull a gun on me lol. I think we just have very different societies and its always going to have a clash of opinions because one country is full of citizens that feel they need guns for protection and the other really doesn't have the problem.

I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

The road rage reference hit home, as it was just up the road from me here that Kenneth Noye stabbed a chap on the Swanley roundabout in such a moment of rage.

[BDunnell]

I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

As ever, fear of crime — including knife crime — is greater than is the risk of crime itself.

[SGWilko]

As ever, fear of crime — including knife crime — is greater than is the risk of crime itself.

Agreed - I lay a big portion of the blame of fuelling that fear at the media.

[race aficionado]

Fact is that an easy fast solution does not exist.
On this end we are seeing more of a public outcry for the federal government to actually come up with a plan.
The fact that it was children (and of course that these events are becoming ever more often) has made the public reactions more emotional and people are upset.

What will happen? - who knows . . . . As an optimist I do hope that this is an opportunity to do something that will actually make a difference and begins the road to change.

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/gun-sales-2012_n_2303513.html)

[Rollo]

20 children don't "live" freedom do they? For them the concept of freedom is worthless.

[SGWilko]

Fact is that an easy fast solution does not exist.
On this end we are seeing more of a public outcry for the federal government to actually come up with a plan.
The fact that it was children (and of course that these events are becoming ever more often) has made the public reactions more emotional and people are upset.

What will happen? - who knows . . . . As an optimist I do hope that this is an opportunity to do something that will actually make a difference and begins the road to change.

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/gun-sales-2012_n_2303513.html)

There was a panorama or Dispatches program a while back over here about the gun ownership bill or whatever in the States. The vested interests and political shenanigans was quite an eye opener.

Is there the will from the government to spurn big corporations/money by changing these gun laws? It does I think become more complicated with the vested interests and how they differ state to state too.

[SGWilko]

20 children don't "live" freedom do they? For them the concept of freedom is worthless.

We can only hope that their deaths will not therefore be in vain, and a fundamental change is begun.

[BDunnell]

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Given that the USA is hardly a lawless hell-hole, one can only place the blame for this on paranoia.

[race aficionado]

There was a panorama or Dispatches program a while back over here about the gun ownership bill or whatever in the States. The vested interests and political shenanigans was quite an eye opener.

Is there the will from the government to spurn big corporations/money by changing these gun laws? It does I think become more complicated with the vested interests and how they differ state to state too.

I don't know much about it, I know it exists and I know that it is a very powerful lobbying entity.

The NRA
*check out their video
NRA (http://home.nra.org/#/nraorg)

[driveace]

I dont get this,these guys who are dissatisfied with their lot ,go into a school armed up to the hilt,even wearing body armour,with guns legally owned by his mother (And why does he mother need all the guns that she legally held ?),and shoot inocent children.I have to say they are crazy and they are cowards,but if you are not happy with your lot,why not jump under a train,but cowards dont do that do they?What about those 20 children who went to school to learn how to be educated,be with thier friends,and enjoy life,and the 40 parents that are now disraught at losing the children they have loved ,protected ,natured,and thought would outlive them ?All his victims were shot more than once,and six were teachers !We have again witnessed a sick individual,the same as we did in the UK at Dunblane,and I have been to the cemetary in Dunblane and can imagine the pain these parents went through.Lets all pray that these children in Connicticut did not die in vain

[ioan]

well try the train bombing and BTW is an adult life better to take??

You are complaining a terrorist attack to a psychopath shooting children in a school? And then you are surprised that we don't take you seriously.

[ioan]

As I said many times before. The rights of the individual supersede those of the state. I have a moral right to be able to protect myself, my family and my property. Nothing as criminal and immoral as a government disarming the public will stop me from exercising that right.

As we say: Hope dies last.

[ioan]

I think over here, knife crime is the big problem.

The road rage reference hit home, as it was just up the road from me here that Kenneth Noye stabbed a chap on the Swanley roundabout in such a moment of rage.

Well, at least he didn't stab 27 people.

[ioan]

Agreed - I lay a big portion of the blame of fuelling that fear at the media.

Don't forget the politicians, they are the main culprit who starts what the media writes/shows about.

[DBell]

For this saying the US should ban guns outright, that is a pure fantasy. Repealing an amendment is very difficult and in the current climate of the country, near impossible. It is just not going to happen. So rather than going over the right to guns debate here for the zillionth time, how about ideas that could really make a difference? Ideology arguments on this is not going to make any difference.

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

[BDunnell]

Don't forget the politicians, they are the main culprit who starts what the media writes/shows about.

I think recent events have shown sections of the media to be laws unto themselves, quite honestly. Perhaps more to blame are the consumers who lap it all up.

[BDunnell]

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

[DBell]

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable. Your comparison is certainly laughable. But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

[BDunnell]

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable.

And that would have stopped what would have happened yesterday, would it? Of course not, because the gunman would have shot the person at the security check. Schools are supposed to be nice places for children to be, not high-security fortresses. If you want to address the problem, stop madmen getting their hands on guns so depressingly often. There's your answer.


Your comparison is certainly laughable.

No it's not. Your suggestion is absurdly draconian; so was mine.


But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

Just because ideology and beliefs — which I thought were quite important to how we live our lives — may take you out of your depth doesn't make this true for all of us.

[ioan]

For this saying the US should ban guns outright, that is a pure fantasy. Repealing an amendment is very difficult and in the current climate of the country, near impossible. It is just not going to happen. So rather than going over the right to guns debate here for the zillionth time, how about ideas that could really make a difference? Ideology arguments on this is not going to make any difference.

How about we invest money in schools to make them secure so that someone wearing armor and armed with guns is stopped before he gets into the building. My wife is a elementary school teacher and she says that secondary doors at her school that are supposed to be locked from the outside are routinely left open to make it easier for people to get around the buildings. There is a lot of blame to go around in this type of situation and I'm wondering if this was the case on how the gunman entered the school. It would take a substantial investment by governments to take the security steps needed for schools to be safer and education always seems to get the short end of the stick when it comes to funding.

Great, turn schools into fortified prisons, it will be easier and cheaper then getting rid of an idiotic amendment. Right?
Well the whole US has been fortified against the outer world with walls and laws which the rest of the world finds laughable. Now you want to start fortifying everything inside the US and add to the already reigning level of paranoia that has been instated during the last 20 years or so.

Getting rid of the guns is the way to go if you really want to get rid of these shootings, hell even the world shooting that you all use to describe these events is pointing to the problem. How many more people have to die before you brainwashed zombies finally get the point?

[ioan]

I think recent events have shown sections of the media to be laws unto themselves, quite honestly. Perhaps more to blame are the consumers who lap it all up.

Yep, but you can't outlaw stupidity.

[ioan]

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

It just goes to show how incrusted in the US citizen's thoughts is the idea that they are constantly in danger and that they absolutely need guns to protect themselves.
IMO they have got to the point where only huge catastrophes can change their 'minds'. A rather sad state of things.

[ioan]

Fine. Prattle on about your ideology about gun ownership and so forth as you wish. All it is is talk that won't make a bit of difference to the problem. I don't see why having a security checkpoint before you are able to enter a school is something laughable. Your comparison is certainly laughable. But hey, don't let me intrude on your debate about ideology and beliefs. It seems to be what many posters in this section live for.

Sure sure, you are right and everyone else is wrong because they do not agree with running around armed to the teeth and with being checked every time they enter a building.
Can you imagine the time it would take kids to get in their classrooms every morning due to having to be checked one by one at the entry to their school?!
Do you want kids to grow up with the idea/reality that security checks everywhere are a part of their normal rights?
You call this freedom?!

[BDunnell]

It just goes to show how incrusted in the US citizen's thoughts is the idea that they are constantly in danger and that they absolutely need guns to protect themselves.
IMO they have got to the point where only huge catastrophes can change their 'minds'. A rather sad state of things.

The sad truth is that, in relation to this particular debate, the sense of danger leading to the perceived need for the possession of firearms seems only to be furthered by huge catastrophes. It's self-perpetuating. I cannot imagine being in a state of mind involving such paranoia.

[TyPat107]

This is nuts.

And as for gun sales being in danger right now of lowering their sales - au contraire - gun sales go up.

Gun Sales In 2012 Set Record, FBI Data Indicates (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/14/gun-sales-2012_n_2303513.html)

This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.

[BDunnell]

This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.

Paranoia: there is no other word for it.

[Hawkmoon]

If gun control was ever going to be increased in the US it would have already happened. This event, sadly, won't make a difference just as the many that preceded it didn't make a difference.

The US has a dependency on guns in the same way that a smoker has a dependency on tobacco. Going cold turkey is far too hard and likely to fail. A better solution is to ween the addict off their addiction. Does the sacred cow that is the Second Amendment prevent the government from placing extremely high taxes on guns? Use economics to lessen demand by making guns so expensive that their sales drop. People will still have the right to bear arms, they just won't be able to afford to do so. Maybe even use the taxes collected to fund gun buy-back schemes and soon enough the number of guns in the country will diminish.

[Valve Bounce]

Race the problem is much deeper that guns. If you take the guns they will use explosives like in the middle east and parts of EU. First check in all of these horrific events should be a thorough investigation of drug usage especially meth. Remember Race guns are banned in Mexico - 60,000 dead because we want drugs. I hope we get a very good report on this cowards background.

I pray for the families

Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

[Valve Bounce]

Guns are for killing, simple as that. Maybe someone can explain to me why nearly half the population of the USA feel the need to kill.

[Roamy]

Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them
with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids. Are the parents to blame?? i also did some serious gun training and they never bothered with firearms except of a 410 shotgun for hunting birds and even that was
very rare. I would think hours and hours of violent video games are not healthy for our children. The industry hides behind freedom of speech and parent look the other way

[BDunnell]

I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids.

Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.

[Roamy]

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

[Roamy]

Guns are for killing, simple as that. Maybe someone can explain to me why nearly half the population of the USA feel the need to kill.

The problem is that most law abiding citizens would rather be the shooter than the shootee

[Roamy]

You are complaining a terrorist attack to a psychopath shooting children in a school? And then you are surprised that we don't take you seriously.

wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

[BDunnell]

WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

All this does is further a climate of security paranoia. It does nothing to tackle the underlying problems. The attitude that increased security is a cure-all I find immensely troubling and depressing, to say nothing of the way it has been blindly accepted, as demonstrated by your remarks.

[BDunnell]

wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

No, there was clearly a problem before those people died. Otherwise, they wouldn't now be dead.

[TyPat107]

I will certainly agree that a intense study regarding video games needs to be done. Our children start very violent games at such a young age. I never allowed them
with my child or the child of my long time girlfriend. Golf, Basketball, Football and auto racing is all they got. I can't help but believe they do contribute to the violent nature
of our kids. Are the parents to blame?? i also did some serious gun training and they never bothered with firearms except of a 410 shotgun for hunting birds and even that was
very rare. I would think hours and hours of violent video games are not healthy for our children. The industry hides behind freedom of speech and parent look the other way

I am sure The research has already been done by our own Army and their game "America's Army." It is the entire purpose is to recruit and train underage americans for a future in the armed forces. If it didn't work I don't see the US gov funding through 3 versions over from 2002 to the present.

[ShiftingGears]

Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.

Absolutely. How discussions of who to apportion blame to after massacres always come back to video games, instead of, say, access to mental health services is completely ridiculous.

[ShiftingGears]

Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/columbine-whose-fault-is-it-19990624)

An article about the Colombine shootings, by Marilyn Manson. Still poignant.

[Starter]

And by what standard do you have the grounds to comment on Costas? Are you a better sports reporter? :rolleyes:
Yes, but I can't brag. It's not hard to do.

[Starter]

That's your choice but I do think that we practice 'freedom' in a different way that's all.

Ultimately you can't have perfect freedom; no laws, no taxes. Government throughout human history has had to impose rules in order to make sure society functions properly.
Absolutely and no question. Where you draw that line is the difference between some societies.

[anthonyvop]

This is the saddest part, these deaths will turn into gun sales. The election did the same thing. I spoke with a A local gun dealer (town of 50,000 people) and the day before election day their store did $20,000 in gun sales, election day was $9000, and the day after was $50,000. It could never happen but people here honestly believe that their guns will be taken from them.


Ask the people of NYC about guns being taken away.

[Starter]

As I understand it , handguns are legal , but not in the school .

So here's a question : What makes a school different ?
I'd just like to fully understand the logic involved here .
There is no logic there. It's a misguided sop to gun haters. Had there been armed teachers or administrators there, things might have gone somewhat differently. I say might because no one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world.

[anthonyvop]

Given that the USA is hardly a lawless hell-hole, one can only place the blame for this on paranoia.


The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html)

[Captain VXR]

Fousto, I just don't know what the answer is. I might take a different view in that I don't think the guy was a coward - I think he had very serious mental issues, something that I thought even before I saw his picture and read about his Aspergers syndrome. I do have to ask here :was his problem magnified by playing violent computer games? Because the guy was dressed in combat fatigues and he had three very powerful and efficient firearms.

Like everyone here, I do feel for the families. Sadly, the mass shooting problem in the USA will not be resolved - not in my lifetime. :(

The media identified the wrong person who shared the same name as the real killer. I don't know if it was the victim of mistaken identity who had Aspergers, the real killer or both, however the victim of mistaken identity was a fan of GTA and COD. Possibly the real killer was influenced by violent video games, however I'm sure that violent video games allow for people to take their rage out on pixels rather than other people, and probably lead to lower levels of overall violence. Time after time, the media ignores the advice of psychologists and covers every detail of such attacks, almost glorifying the killer, and possibly influencing other massacres. Maybe drugs such as PCP could've been an influence on the killer, or extreme childhood bullying. Who knows?

On the same day, a person went nuts in China and slashed 22 children with a knife outside of school, what the **** is wrong with people?

Man slashes 22 children near China school - latimes.com (http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-man-slashes-22-children-near-china-school-20121214,0,6383015.story)

[Starter]

Even if you did own a gun, and it made you feel safe, what if you are unable to get to it in time if you really needed it to defend yourself from attack? Owning a gun but getting shot while retrieving it defeats the object.

Also, if your house is broken into, say, and the gun is found by the burglar......

Much better to be without a gun.
What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

[Starter]

Its been said before but if you live in a society where guns are common; if you are attacked or burgled, the chances of the individual carrying a gun is higher. If you live somewhere like the UK or somewhere else where gun ownership is restricted, then the chances of getting attacked with a fire arm is rather slim.

My house has a burglar alarm even though there hasn't been a burglary on my estate for over 5 years and that instance didn't involve an occupied premises. I live in a pretty safe area and I'm not generally a paranoid person where I think about remote possibilities or what ifs. Burglars don't tend to carry guns here, of course that doesn't mean there have never been armed robberies here either. Another common example would be If I got into an argument whilst driving (road rage) the chances are the other person won't pull a gun on me lol. I think we just have very different societies and its always going to have a clash of opinions because one country is full of citizens that feel they need guns for protection and the other really doesn't have the problem.
A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

[BDunnell]

The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.

I can tell you for sure that I don't feel the need to be protected to anything like the degree you clearly require.

[BDunnell]

A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

Would you rather events such as those of yesterday kept on occurring if it's the price that has to be paid as part of retaining your guns?

[BDunnell]

What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

One might say that another difference is that you're more frightened of the potential incident than we are.

[Starter]

Clearly, though, millions of people play them with no ill effect.
And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

[BDunnell]

Absolutely and no question. Where you draw that line is the difference between some societies.

And it's in the drawing of that line that paranoia, a national fear/victim complex, or whatever, can begin to set in.

[BDunnell]

And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

I knew someone would probably make this comparison. I would suggest that the danger inherent in a gun is somewhat greater than that of a video game. I would also suggest that the possession of a video game demonstrates rather less negative personal qualities than does the possession of a gun.

[Starter]

Would you rather events such as those of yesterday kept on occurring if it's the price that has to be paid as part of retaining your guns?
Please clarify. Do you mean legally retaining my guns? The answer is "yes" as compared to the alternative.

[Starter]

One might say that another difference is that you're more frightened of the potential incident than we are.
Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

[anthonyvop]

Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.

I can tell you for sure that I don't feel the need to be protected to anything like the degree you clearly require.

That is what the Poles Said in 1939. The French in 1940. Eastern Europe in 1945. Northern Ireland in 1972-75,76 & 93. The Israeli Olympic Team in 1972. Hungerford England in 1987. Turks in Cyrpus in 1974, Croatia in 1991. Bosnia in 1995. Scotland in 1996. Norway in 2011. .........Shall I go on?

[anthonyvop]

How to stop a Massacre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4


What have we learned by that video.

That our Grandfathers are braver than the typical European.

[DBell]

Says the man whose experience of Europe comes almost exclusively from Google searches and right-wing American news outlets.


Now this is laughable coming from the man from Germany who continues to enlighten us on his expertise on America and how we think and feel. You familiar with the phrase 'The pot calling the kettle black'?

[Rollo]

Had there been armed teachers or administrators there, things might have gone somewhat differently. I say might because no one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world.

Bollocks.
Had this person not had access to or been in a society which doesn't have guns as widespread, it probably wouldn't have happened at all. Incidentally there was an armed teacher... her son got hold of one and shot 20 children, her and five other people.

No-one can assure any sequence of events in a "might of" world but you can increase or decrease the likelihood of events in a "might of" world by changing the rules which govern it.

[Starter]

Bollocks.
Had this person not had access to or been in a society which doesn't have guns as widespread, .....
Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

[Robinho]

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[race aficionado]

Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

Yes it is a realit.

Which doesn't make it okay.

FACT: If there is less of anything, the chances of getting anything of it are less possible due to the fact that they are not that easily available.

If a kid lives in a house where there are various hand guns, rifles, or any other bullet shooting weapons that were purchased legally and are part of their household - and if that kid goes nuts for whatever reason (mental illness or drug caused or just plain pissed off with life), the probabilities of this kid getting those weapons from his home and going out to cause crazy, crazy, pain are magnified exponentially.

The guns were there for the taking and in this case a terrible drama unfolded.

Yes we deal with the reality, but it doesn't mean we have to accept it as something that can't be dealt with.

[Starter]

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

[Starter]

FACT: If there is less of anything, the chances of getting anything of it are less possible due to the fact that they are not that easily available.
Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.
What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?


If a kid lives in a house where there are various hand guns, rifles, or any other bullet shooting weapons that were purchased legally and are part of their household - and if that kid goes nuts for whatever reason (mental illness or drug caused or just plain pissed off with life), the probabilities of this kid getting those weapons from his home and going out to cause crazy, crazy, pain are magnified exponentially.
It is rare indeed that someone just "goes nuts". The signs are usually there for a long time and people who interact with them know that there is a problem. But, no one deals with it.

[Rollo]

What have we learned by that video.

That your country allows idiots to have guns in the first place.

[Rollo]

Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

If no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change the fact that society is armed and you've either weakened government to the point where it can not or is not allowed to do anything about it, then this will happen again and again and again...


America will take 3 weeks to flagellate itself, make crying noises, boo hoo hoo and all that, forget about it and then wait another six months when another massacre will occur (in which time another 5750 people will have died because of guns) and we can all go around the merry go round again.

[race aficionado]

What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?


Never said that Starter, I said "less".
Law enforcement needs guns, licensed hunter's and target practice practitioners need their legally and responsibly obtained weapons.

[Roamy]

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

yes I agree that the government needs to be kept at bay, that is why we have guns and are not giving them up. The world has become a cesspool sprinkled with a few gorgeous Whores. Just will have to accept is as it is. We will continue to shoot one another and you will continue to bomb one another and the end result will be the same. Horrible death.

[Roamy]

Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

Starter: Is is coming out that this kid was very intelligent. He could have got guns from many places or even more scary - built bombs. The fact that he shot his own Mother in the face sends a chilling message that someone did not deal with the symptoms. Also he spent hour and hours with violent video games. They say his Mother was overbearing. More about the personalities is coming.

[Robinho]

In which case there are 2 issues at hand. 1, lack of effective mental health treatment. 2. Putting guns in the hands of the mentally ill. Blaming it all on mental health is a convenient side bar to get attention off the fact that people still keep killing people with guns.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Valve Bounce]

Never said that Starter, I said "less".
Law enforcement needs guns, licensed hunter's and target practice practitioners need their legally and responsibly obtained weapons.

And therein lies the crux of the entire matter. In HK, with a population of well over 13 million in that tiny place, nobody apart from law enforcement officials are permitted to Bear Arms. Not surprisingly, there are no mass murders in Hong Kong. And I would be specious to argue that children are more valued in Hong Kong than the United States of America. Maybe the entire population of The United States of America need an introspective consideration into what lives their people hold sacred, and which lives they can extinguish according to their precious second amendment.

[Valve Bounce]

Also he spent hour and hours with violent video games. . Oh! Shyte!! :( Just what I dreaded.

[Robinho]

If your government wanted to they could wipe you off the face of the planet in seconds whether you have a ton of handguns and rifles or not. You have the one of if not the biggest armies in the world, armed police etc. They would likely do the bidding of their employers. A few gun toting citizens who think they are a militia keeping the evil government at bay are simply paranoid delusionals. I've lived all across the UK, in Sweden, and now Australia, I've never even seen a gun in public except a couple of police in london and at airports. Never seen a knife pulled on anyone, never felt that I was in danger of Islamic extremists blowing me up. Sure there are a bunch of wackos out there who would hurt people, but the paranoia is simply a product of instant worldwide news coverage, not actual risk of crime. I do believe the hell hole New York, haven of violent crime, actually recorded 24 hrs of zero violent crime a couple of weeks ago, for the 1st time in living memory. You guys absolutely do not need guns. You have precisely zero more freedom than most of the rest of the developed world, just a perceived freedom based on some outdated text with no practical application in the modern world.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[6789]

Its good to see the guns don't kill people, people kill people line again..

Such a tragedy, condolences to all involved.

[leighton323]

The Americans in the argument on this forum have the outlook of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff to try and save the man who fell. The rest of the world in this argument in this forum have the view of putting a fence up at the top of the cliff to stop the man from falling. If that makes sense to you people. I Wonder what decision has the best outcome.. Hmm

[SGWilko]

Consider this. Why on earth should such draconian steps ever be necessary? The notion of such security being required at European schools is laughable. Why? Because, despite isolated (far more so than in the US) tragic incidents, it is not called for. If it is in the US, you have a different problem than just school security, surely?

Your response is rather like suggesting that women should wear suits of armour to prevent rape.

You'd be quite surprised at the security measures put in place at my kids school. Not to keep the kids in, but to keep those that want to do 'things' to kids out. CCTV, maglocks on doors, high fencing, door entry systems etc.

This is not a unique or a pie in the sky idea.

[SGWilko]

Yep, but you can't outlaw stupidity.

No - and some are genuinely just thick. But a lot of it is a lack of education.

Dare I say that some of this is a parenting issue, some is a funding/access to education issue.

Surely then, a level of checks for suitability for gun ownership, should be the family as a whole, including education, intelligence etc???

[SGWilko]

children start very violent games at such a young age.

Irresponsibly brought up children maybe. Trouble is, any twit can get knocked up and start a family. I am not saying this should be stopped because you cannot dictate on freedom.

But how do you ensure a basic common sense level of parenting and education.

I don't know that that would be possible unfortunately.

[SGWilko]

Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

Most of these insurance you refer to, are legally required in order to;

Own a car,
Obtain a mortgage,
Continue to have a mortgage on a house.

[ioan]

WEll growing up I never thought I would see airport security. Obviously the world has changed and we have to deal with those changes. I can tell you in this country probably one of the most
rapidly growing areas is in fact security. I wonder what they do in israel. If you figure out how to collect all the guns let us know. But I assume metal detectors is probably much cheaper and more realistic. If I had school age children I would have no problem with very enhanced security.

To be honest Israel is more relaxed then the US even though in their case one could argue that the danger is higher then in the US.
And BTW they do not own and wear guns all day long. Funny, isn't it?

[ioan]

wake up ioan all the people are DEAD that is the problem

Wake up Roamy, the underlying reasons are completely different, and I could even go as far as saying that the USA has the biggest blame for the Spain bombings too as they are the ones who scorned the whole Middle East along with their long time protegee Israel, yet we pay the price for it sometimes.
It is your guns loving culture that doesn't really help in both cases solve the issues for good.

[ioan]

Absolutely. How discussions of who to apportion blame to after massacres always come back to video games, instead of, say, access to mental health services is completely ridiculous.

It's all about moving the discussion away from those pesky guns.

[ioan]

Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/columbine-whose-fault-is-it-19990624)

An article about the Colombine shootings, by Marilyn Manson. Still poignant.

One of the best parts:



In 1979, metal lunch boxes were banned because they were considered dangerous weapons in the hands of delinquents.

Read more: Columbine: Whose Fault Is It? | Culture News | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/news/columbine-whose-fault-is-it-19990624#ixzz2FD3e8EcC)
Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook


Funny that guns aren't considered dangerous enough to be banned.

[Knock-on]

I think Morgan Freemans comments have merit.

Surprising message from Morgan Freeman. He blames the media for CT shooting. | Peace . Gold . Liberty (http://www.dailypaul.com/266479/surprising-message-from-morgan-freeman-he-blames-the-media-for-ct-shooting)

We glamorise celebrity and it doesn't seem to matter what fame you achieve. Singers, celebrity idiots eating Kangaroo balls, sportspeople doing ballroom dancing or a bunch of nobodies acting like fools in a community house. The only way is Essex or The only way is murder.

Guns are a reality in America. The people that seem so deep set in their Conservative ways regarding Abortion, Contraception, Homosexuality, equality for women, different religions and race are appaulled that anyone might attempt to curtail their rights over Gun ownership.

While you have a perverse demand for tittilatio and, the free access to firearms, you will continue to get these attrocities.

[ioan]

The only mental issue is that you euro Types actually believe your government will protect you.

Culture of violence: Gun crime goes up by 89% in a decade | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html)

Believe it or not there is a reason why European Cities rank way above the US cities in the life quality statistics, and crime (well the lack of it) is also one reason for that.
Going from one fire arm related crime to two in a decade would be a 100% increase, but I am sure you already know that. Or maybe not?!
The point is Europe far outnumbers the US in population, yet we come nowhere near in crime levels, let alone fire arms related ones.

Take for Example Vienna, Austria, a 2million inhabitants city where we get about 20 murders in a year. How does that compare to US cities?

Why is that every 2nd TV movie in the US is about cops and crime and drugs and so on? Does it have any connection to your paranoia for owning guns to protect yourselves?

Instead of spitting venom about the mental issues that the euro do not really have, you might want to take a look in the mirror, it might help you see your own issues and cure them.

And yes our governments certainly do a better job at protecting us then yours does, the numbers are out there and tell the story for everyone to see.

[ioan]

What if the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it? Ifs and buts do not make a world you can reasonably live in. I prefer SOME chance as opposed to NO chance. And that's just the difference in our takes on life.

What are the chances for that? 1%? Maybe less.
Face it, your if's and buts are as you say not making a world you can live in, so what about just getting rid of guns and not needing the What IF the intruder's gun jammed or he forgot to load it?
To difficult? Well face it, you are addicted to guns just as the junkies are addicted to drugs, maybe even worse cause some of them can get rid of their addiction while you are defending yours!

[ioan]

A very clear understanding of the difference between many European countries and the US. Guns have been part of society here since the place was settled - four hundred some years now. They exist in huge quantities. There is NO practical way anyone can make them go away. Therefore, the prudent person will do what they deem to be the best choice for them and their family. Some choose one way and others a different way.

Weapons have been freely available to Europe's inhabitants thousands of years before America was settled by your ancestors, yet we are not keeping weapons at home, to 'defend' ourselves against imaginary dangers.

[ioan]

And 47 some million Americans own guns with the hugely vast majority never shooting anyone.

But when they do....
And they do it rather often.

And I am sure that those 40 parents and hundreds of relatives will agree with you that guns are good to have, especially for murdering people.

[ioan]

Do you buy life insurance, fire insurance or auto insurance? Your chances of needing either are small (else the insurance companies would go out of business). Does that mean you are frightened?

Other than life insurance, which I don't have as it is pointless IMO, the other two are a legal requirement. So what was your point? Does the US law require you to buy guns instead of maybe financing universal healthcare and a better social system that would take people of the streets and greatly reduce the chances of crime, as we did in Europe?

[Rollo]

This was from this morning's Sydney Morning Herald:

Brothers in arms, yes, but the US needs to get rid of its guns (http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/brothers-in-arms-yes-but-the-us-needs-to-get-rid-of-its-guns-20120731-23ct7.html)
There is more to this than merely the lobbying strength of the National Rifle Association and the proximity of the November presidential election. It is hard to believe that their reaction would have been any different if the murders in Aurora had taken place immediately after the election of either Obama or Romney. So deeply embedded is the gun culture of the US, that millions of law-abiding, Americans truly believe that it is safer to own a gun, based on the chilling logic that because there are so many guns in circulation, one's own weapon is needed for self-protection. To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.
- Former Prime Minister John Howard, SMH, 16th Dec 2012.

[ioan]

That is what the Poles Said in 1939. The French in 1940. Eastern Europe in 1945. Northern Ireland in 1972-75,76 & 93. The Israeli Olympic Team in 1972. Hungerford England in 1987. Turks in Cyrpus in 1974, Croatia in 1991. Bosnia in 1995. Scotland in 1996. Norway in 2011. .........Shall I go on?

Yes, go on please. None of these would have been prevented by ownership of guns by civil people.
Or do you think that the Poles would have been able to defeat the German tanks with handguns?
Or are you now advocating adolescents to own guns in Norway?

This might be news to you but we have far less crime around here then you have in the US and we would like to keep it that way, without guns.

PS: And because in your misguided attempt you went as far as listing wars, what about giving lots of high tech weapons to the Talibans to fight the invading US soldiers? You didn't list that did you? I wonder why.

[ioan]

How to stop a Massacre

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epZod2qyyN4


What have we learned by that video.

That our Grandfathers are braver than the typical European.

Might be braver, but certainly not smarter. Just a small difference supported by today's reality.

[Mark]

Actually the British examples you quoted we're committed by people with legally owned guns which have since been banned. Perhaps some fact checking is in order?

[ioan]

Now this is laughable coming from the man from Germany who continues to enlighten us on his expertise on America and how we think and feel. You familiar with the phrase 'The pot calling the kettle black'?

Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

[ioan]

Your assertion is stupid. That's like saying that if there were no gravity all those kids could have floated to safety. The society here IS armed and no amount of hand wringing or wishful thinking will change that. Gravity exists and so do the millions of guns here. Deal with the reality of both of them.

Nope, his assertion is right, those people have been killed with freely available guns. Do you think that the guy would have been able to kill all those people without the guns? I highly doubt it.

[ioan]

Thank you, we will.

I also can't help but notice that no one has commented on the fact that a gun did not kill those children. A severly wacked person, using a gun as his tool, did. No one seems to want to discuss the role which mental illness plays in incidents like these. So far, reports are that many people knew this guy was disturbed. I'd like to know more about why he was free to do what he did; how well were his mental issues known and to whom; what measures were in place to address them; etc. Find some solutions there and the gun ownership issue is moot.

You obviously do not realize what you are talking about.
Did you just lose your kid in a school shooting? Who gives you the right to take decisions in the names of those families just based on your fear of life.
You call gun ownership a reality, just like gravity, but the reality that you won't express is that it is your fear of guns that makes you think that owning some yourself would keep you safe! The best of all is that you don't see the stupidity of your situation.
Tell me, if your neighbor buys a Tank what will you do to make sure that he won't destroy you with it? How far does your paranoia go over guns can go?

[ioan]

Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.
What, exactly, makes you believe that if you ban guns (assuming you even could) they would not be easily available?

Fact: You guys are messed up badly.

Over here we never had any of this crap and we are doing just fine, I wonder why is that? Maybe because our government and our mass media doesn't keep telling us that we are in danger every 2 minutes? Maybe because we do not go to war with half the Middle East and instead of paying for war and weapons we use that money to give people a better life quality which automatically takes away the need to go around and commit crimes?

[ioan]

Then you all deserve to keep having these tragedies happen on your doorsteps, to your communities, as the simple statement seems to be "we don't want to do anything about guns". If and when this happens to you, your family or friends you have brought it on yourselves by hanging on to some grim paranoia that without guns the USA will fold, your government will turn on you and genocide will ensue. Enjoy your guns and put up with the fact that each time this happens again we'll continue to say "i told you so"


As harsh as it might be I fully agree with that.

[ioan]

yes I agree that the government needs to be kept at bay, that is why we have guns and are not giving them up.

That is ridiculous, especially when you all tell us how great the US is and the great freedom that you are all living.
Around here we can get rid of our government by simply going out in the street, no need to shoot them or anyone else.

[ioan]

And therein lies the crux of the entire matter. In HK, with a population of well over 13 million in that tiny place, nobody apart from law enforcement officials are permitted to Bear Arms. Not surprisingly, there are no mass murders in Hong Kong. And I would be specious to argue that children are more valued in Hong Kong than the United States of America. Maybe the entire population of The United States of America need an introspective consideration into what lives their people hold sacred, and which lives they can extinguish according to their precious second amendment.

Oh come on Valve, what with this example? If it is not US and NRA approved it never existed? Who did ever hear about this place Hong Kong? It sure isn't in the US, and if it isn't not in the US then it does not count. End of sarcastic comment. :\

[Mark]

Well the argument is pointless. As said above this is deemed acceptable. The answer to put a stop to it is clear but it seems it isn't welcome so this will continue to happen.

[Rollo]

Fact: Alcohol was banned here early in the century. Result: Plenty of alcohol available, at a slightly higher price and with a new class of criminals engaged in a violent trade.
Fact: Drugs are banned here. Result: Plenty of drugs available, now with a very violent class of criminal getting the huge profits and addicts getting virtually no treatment.
Fact: Guns banned in New York city and Washington DC. Result: Gun violence rampant in those cities and the law abiding general populace helpless.


Conclusion: The American people are faulty.

Henceforth, why are you advocating that they have access to instruments of destruction and death?

[Rollo]

This is interesting:

Sig Sauer .223-Caliber Semi-Automatic Rifle Reportedly Used By Ryan Lanza At School Shooting In Connecticut (http://www.ibtimes.com/sig-sauer-223-caliber-semi-automatic-rifle-reportedly-used-ryan-lanza-school-shooting-connecticut)
NBC News, which picked up an article from the Associated Press, said that of the two guns recovered, one of them was a .223 caliber rifle. Earlier, CNN had identified the two guns as a Sig Sauer and a Glock.

Who identified the Sig Sauer as their 2011 Golden Bullseye Award? None other than the NRA.
NRA Magazines announce winners of the 2011 Golden Bullseye Award and Golden Bullseye Pioneer Award (http://www.nrablog.com/post/2010/12/27/NRA-Magazines-announce-winners-of-the-2011-Golden-Bullseye-Award-and-Golden-Bullseye-Pioneer-Award.aspx)
Handgun of the Year, SIG Sauer P226 E2

The AP reported that the Sauer at 0.223 was caliber of the rifle used and curiously "Guns & Ammo" mag thought that it was the "Best Home Defense Caliber".
Is .223 the Best Home Defense Caliber? - Guns & Ammo (http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/)
Military-style rifles have always been popular in this country, but since September 11, 2001, the sales of the AR15 and its clones have skyrocketed—just look at how many companies are making them now. There are a number of factors behind this—increased exposure to the weapon system via media, fears of terrorism and the realization of just how fun the darn things are to shoot.

It all makes sense now. This was an informed purchase based on recommendations from such law abiding organisations like the NRA. Obviously it must be "fun" to empty rounds of fire into children.

[DBell]

Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

??? Nothing to do with war. If you look at what I quoted, my response seems clear to me. Maybe someone can help you with the big words.

Maybe you have learned from your history. Of course, you had to kill tens of millions of people and lay the continent to waste to achieve this.

[race aficionado]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/6ajedesa.jpg

Not funny.

[anthonyvop]

The Americans in the argument on this forum have the outlook of putting an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff to try and save the man who fell. The rest of the world in this argument in this forum have the view of putting a fence up at the top of the cliff to stop the man from falling. If that makes sense to you people. I Wonder what decision has the best outcome.. Hmm

Actually I am in favor of punishing the PEOPLE who step over the edge.

[anthonyvop]

Believe it or not there is a reason why European Cities rank way above the US cities in the life quality statistics, and crime (well the lack of it) is also one reason for that.
Going from one fire arm related crime to two in a decade would be a 100% increase, but I am sure you already know that. Or maybe not?!
The point is Europe far outnumbers the US in population, yet we come nowhere near in crime levels, let alone fire arms related ones.

Take for Example Vienna, Austria, a 2million inhabitants city where we get about 20 murders in a year. How does that compare to US cities?

Why is that every 2nd TV movie in the US is about cops and crime and drugs and so on? Does it have any connection to your paranoia for owning guns to protect yourselves?

Instead of spitting venom about the mental issues that the euro do not really have, you might want to take a look in the mirror, it might help you see your own issues and cure them.

And yes our governments certainly do a better job at protecting us then yours does, the numbers are out there and tell the story for everyone to see.


Those ranking are based on what Europeans think is important for quality of life. For me FREEDOM is number one and in that Europe is sadly lacking. You may think you have freedom but every day I hear reports of how such basic freedoms of Speech, Thought and Self-Determination are virtually non-existent.

If you like that great. but don't for even one second think that you are free and I want to live that way.

[Bagwan]

Has anyone else here seen the movie "God bless America." ?

[anthonyvop]

Weapons have been freely available to Europe's inhabitants thousands of years before America was settled by your ancestors, yet we are not keeping weapons at home, to 'defend' ourselves against imaginary dangers.

That is because we do. I so much want the US out of NATO. I would give you guys 3 years tops before you fall apart.



Might be braver, but certainly not smarter. Just a small difference supported by today's reality.

He has his money, his life and, most important his dignity. He is way smarter than you.


Your point being? Is it because the US has started more wars then Germany? Is it because the US is still being at war with a bunch of countries in year 2012?! Go on let us know!
We, Europeans learned from our history, you obviously did not.

The US has Never started a war. Check you facts. The Germans on the other hand.......


Fact: You guys are messed up badly.

Over here we never had any of this crap and we are doing just fine, I wonder why is that? Maybe because our government and our mass media doesn't keep telling us that we are in danger every 2 minutes? Maybe because we do not go to war with half the Middle East and instead of paying for war and weapons we use that money to give people a better life quality which automatically takes away the need to go around and commit crimes?


You are doing fine? Then how come tens of thousands of you guys want to immigrate to the US every year while only a trickle of Americans want to live in Europe?

Your is a morally, corrupt society that lives as a nanny state.


Argue all you want. The fact is I will decide how I will protect myself, my family and my property. Not you. Not Obama not anyone.

[donKey jote]

I think there should be an equivalent of Godwin's law whenever the Vops of this world mention Obama in a thread :)

[Starter]

You call gun ownership a reality, just like gravity,....
Not what I said. I said the existence of the guns is a reality.

[Roamy]

Tony - Great Answers

[Starter]

Nope, his assertion is right, those people have been killed with freely available guns. Do you think that the guy would have been able to kill all those people without the guns? I highly doubt it.
No. I don't. Are you having difficulty reading today? Go back and re read because that is also not what I said.

[Starter]

.....you've either weakened government to the point where it can not or is not allowed to do anything.....
Nope, it started that way in the beginning. On purpose. We like it that way.

[Starter]

How far does your paranoia go over guns can go?
Let's try and be a little less personally insulting, shall we?

[Starter]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/16/6ajedesa.jpg

Not funny.
Agreed, but only too true.

[Starter]

The US has Never started a war. Check you facts. The Germans on the other hand.......
Sorry to disagree with you, but we did start the second war in Iraq.

[SGWilko]

To put it another way, the situation is so far gone there can be no turning back.[/i]

Which is why I firmly believe a better process of ensuring those that have access to guns are the least likely to cause mass harm with them.

Should that be to look at an entire family history above just the individual applicant then so be it.

[Roamy]

Ok lets do reality check - you wonder why we want guns. You guys (TiRE;s) have already slaughtered the equivalent to the nation of Israel and now most of you support countries wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. God save us if you guys could mount a army. I hope we wake up and eliminate almost all of our foreign aid, withdraw from nato, withdraw from the UN. Seal our borders and tariff every piece of sh!t you guys are trying to get in here. Fk the Global Economy we will have our own and do just fine. As you can see this thread has just turned to insults so lets not sugar coat it. History shows you are vicious and barbaric and thank god you have been suppressed. Go through the history of the world if you are stuck understanding this. I am surprised they even let you guys buy propane!!

[Mark]

Military might has zero to do with gun ownership in general population. And zero to do with this thread.

[ioan]

The US has Never started a war. Check you facts. The Germans on the other hand.....

Really?
What about Irak? Afghanistan? Those started out of the blue, right?!

[ioan]

No. I don't. Are you having difficulty reading today? Go back and re read because that is also not what I said.

I have difficulties understanding flawed attempts at defending the undefendable. I admit this.

[ioan]

Let's try and be a little less personally insulting, shall we?

Whoa, do you feel threatened by my comments? Need a gun to defend yourself maybe?

[ioan]

Ok lets do reality check - you wonder why we want guns. You guys (TiRE;s) have already slaughtered the equivalent to the nation of Israel and now most of you support countries wanting to wipe them off the face of the earth. God save us if you guys could mount a army. I hope we wake up and eliminate almost all of our foreign aid, withdraw from nato, withdraw from the UN. Seal our borders and tariff every piece of sh!t you guys are trying to get in here. Fk the Global Economy we will have our own and do just fine. As you can see this thread has just turned to insults so lets not sugar coat it. History shows you are vicious and barbaric and thank god you have been suppressed. Go through the history of the world if you are stuck understanding this. I am surprised they even let you guys buy propane!!

What has the goat to do with the spaceship?

[Roamy]

Ioan its not a goat it is a Moose

[Starter]

Whoa, do you feel threatened by my comments? Need a gun to defend yourself maybe?
Do you need to be banned again? Since I'm not a Mod these days, I can't do it, but I'll be happy to report your insults if you wish.

[SGWilko]

Can you give some examples to back up this opinion?
Maybe you could explain how freedom of speech in the US differs from that of the UK?

As long as you are not publicly racist, promoting homophobic violence or using abusive language in a public arena, you can protest about pretty much anything here without intervention. Everyone has the right to protest and its rare you would visit our capital without seeing it in some form.

A visit to Speakers Corner in the West End is testament to this.

[race aficionado]

I always take my milk box when I visit London. :)

[D-Type]

There's been a lot of claiming of freedom and rights.

Surely the basic right to go to work in the morning and come home safe in the evening overrides other rights such as the right of a state to have an armed militia and by extension the right of its citizens to possess guns?

By the way can somebody explain why states need the right to raise armed militia supplementing the federal forces and hence the need for citizens to possess arms.

[Bagwan]

I'm still waiting for an answer to why guns shouldn't be allowed in schools .

[Roamy]

I'm still waiting for an answer to why guns shouldn't be allowed in schools .

I think they are allowed in Arizona

[Starter]

By the way can somebody explain why states need the right to raise armed militia supplementing the federal forces and hence the need for citizens to possess arms.
That's because the federal forces are not large enough to sustain long engagements or multiple theater actions by themselves. The state national guards and reserves are rotated into combat areas as needed. There have been multiple deployments of them in all recent military actions - Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. - going back to Korea and WWII.

[race aficionado]

Is this true?
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/17/4y2e3y3a.jpg

[Rollo]

Yes. It happened at Dunblaine Primary School.
And yes the Firearms (Amendment) Acts were passed in 1997.
Every other statement in that blurb is also true.

The point is that the UK acted on this, which is something I can pretty well guarantee will not happen in the US.
Dead children is an acceptable price for "freedom" in America.

[Valve Bounce]

I've been going through many of the posts on this thread. I think everyone needs to take a step back and reconsider what this topic is all about.
We are supposed to be discussing the massacre of 20 innocent infants and 7 adults. Hurling masked insults at each other is not conducive toa sensible discussion on such a tragic event.

[Roamy]

well while we are having this discussion lets at least balance out the history: Now I have not checked on bombings but will probably do that as well.



April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA (http://www.reuters.com/places/south-korea?lc=int_mb_1001) - Police officer Woo Bum Kong went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.
August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - Michael Ryan, a 27-year-old gun fanatic rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.
July 1989 - FRANCE (http://www.reuters.com/places/france?lc=int_mb_1001) - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.
December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.
November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the tiny New Zealand seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.
September 1995 - FRANCE (http://www.reuters.com/places/france?lc=int_mb_1001) - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.
March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - Gunman Thomas Hamilton burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.
April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA (http://www.reuters.com/places/australia?lc=int_mb_1001) - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.
April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Denver, shooting 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.
July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.
June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.
April 26, 2002 - GERMANY (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany?lc=int_mb_1001) - In Erfurt, eastern Germany (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany), 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a math test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.
October 2002 - USA - John Muhammad and Lee Malvo killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.
April 16, 2007 - USA - Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia, became the site of the deadliest rampage in U.S. history when a gunman killed 32 people and himself.
November 7, 2007 - FINLAND - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse and the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.
September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.
March 11, 2009 - GERMANY (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany?lc=int_mb_1001) - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.
June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.
August 30, 2010 - SLOVAKIA - A gunman shot dead six members of a Roma family and another woman in the Slovak capital Bratislava before killing himself. Fourteen more people were wounded.
April 9, 2011 - NETHERLANDS - Tristan van der Vlis opened fire in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn, south of Amsterdam, killing six before turning the gun on himself.
July 22, 2011 - NORWAY (http://www.reuters.com/places/norway?lc=int_mb_1001) - Police seize a gunman who killed at least 68 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in the center of Oslo which killed at least eight people. He appears in a closed court hearing in Oslo on July 25 and is ordered detained for eight weeks in solitary confinement.

[Dave B]

You can cut and paste lists of atrocities until the cows come home, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do something. Nobody is deluded enough to suggest a ban or a restriction on gun ownership would suddenly eradicate all shootings, but it would certainly reduce them over time and surely that's worth it. There will of course be those who ignore the law and get hold of guns or explosives somehow, that's a given, but maintaining the status quo helps nobody.

I heard Obama's words, particularly "we must change", but I don't hold out much hope.

[Rollo]

April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA (http://www.reuters.com/places/australia?lc=int_mb_1001) - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.

Australia almost immediately set about removing all automatic and semi-automatic weapons because of this. The net result? In 2011 the total number of people killed with guns was 30.
Australia went from a place that was 11 times safer than the United States on a per capita basis to 25 times safer than the United States on a per capita basis.

Australia took appropriate action and dealt with the issue. The United States on the other hand is too childish to do so.

[Robinho]

If we are comparing there have been 3 multi person public shootings in a couple of weeks in the states, one in a shopping centre, one hospital and now the school. Mercifully the 1st 2 "only" killed a few people, but the shopping centre 1 had the potential to be far worse (IIRC the assault weapon he was using jammed). I believe I also read there have been 12 mass shootings in the USA this year, although I'm not sure of the criteria to qualify as a mass shooting.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Bezza]

This was a truly shocking event. There should be tighter gun regulations in the USA, for sure. However, the gun didn't go off by itself - what is more important is that it is found out why this man did what he did, and how this can be stopped in future. If it wasn't a gun, he could've used something else (albeit probably to a lesser degree).

The focus should be on getting to the root of the problem, not just banning guns. The guns were the tool used, the cause was the mind of the perpetrator.

Video games have nothing to do with this either. Anybody of sane rationality knows the vast difference between reality and a computer game.

[SGWilko]

Anybody of sane rationality knows the vast difference between reality and a computer game.

That's the biggest issue - sound mind.

If someone with a sound mind can suffer an event to change the state of mind to unsound, then how do you predict this in an individual who applies to own or has access to guns.

Loner is a word that crops up a fair bit.

[BleAivano]

Military might has zero to do with gun ownership in general population. And zero to do with this thread.

I disagree since shootings like this have more to do with the fundamentalism of the Citizens
of the USA rather then the access to weapons. In the USA it seems like nudity are considered extremely
morally wrong to such an extent that even nipple slips like the one at super bowl are considered
to be something that will twist the minds of the American people.
While violent tv-series and movies doesn't seem to be a problem.


The USA are still involved in two wars that have killed hundreds of thousands of people Several thousands
of those are American soldiers and yet many Americans defend these wars as "pre-cautionary self defence",
in the same way as NRA preaches their mantra that more weapons will make things better despite that
common sense says the opposite.

Then you have US police officers who doesn't seems to hesitate to use the weapons:
Bureau of Justice Statistics Arrest-Related Deaths, 2003-2009 -- Statistical Tables (http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/press/ard0309stpr.cfm)
During the period 2003-2009 almost 5000 people were killed by US Law enforcement officers.
How many people in Europe were killed by Law enforcement officers during the same time period?

Then you have death penalties, US is the only western country that still uses the death penalty
and imo it seems that many still considers this as public entertainment.

To summarize this the problem is not the guns but rather the US citizens aggressiveness and obsession
with guns, killing, retribution and etc. IMO USA seems stuck in the old days of the 19th century (think western movie).

[Starter]

I disagree ...... (think western movie).
That post has so many inaccuracies and stereotypes in it it would take a page of comment to rebut.

[Rudy Tamasz]

This was a truly shocking event. There should be tighter gun regulations in the USA, for sure.

Agree, especially on assault automatic weapons.


However, the gun didn't go off by itself - what is more important is that it is found out why this man did what he did, and how this can be stopped in future. If it wasn't a gun, he could've used something else (albeit probably to a lesser degree).

The focus should be on getting to the root of the problem, not just banning guns. The guns were the tool used, the cause was the mind of the perpetrator.

My thoughts, exactly.


Video games have nothing to do with this either. Anybody of sane rationality knows the vast difference between reality and a computer game.

Here you kind of contradict your own argument. Video games are a major way of blurring the line between the reality and a game. Unless there's somebody to tell a kid there's a difference he will grow up thinking killing is perfectly okay beecause that's what he spent his childhood doing. Given the fact that family is not too much of an influence these days (c'mon, that redundant conservative thing), millions of kids grow up in an entertainment universe with no line between real life and fantasy.

[SGWilko]

Given the fact that family is not too much of an influence these days (c'mon, that redundant conservative thing), millions of kids grow up in an entertainment universe with no line between real life and fantasy.

I don't see it as 'not too much of an influence', rather lazy parenting. It's so much easier to put your feet up and watch your favourite soap opera if the kids are stuck in front of the computer all day long.

[anthonyvop]

Yep restrictive Gun laws is working out just great for you guys,

http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-most-violent-country-in-Europe-Britain-is-also-worse-than-South-Africa-and-U.S.-Mail-Online-Mozilla-Firefox-1252012-91729-PM.bmp.jpg

BTW the USA comes in with 386.3 per 100,000 residents.

[anthonyvop]

Agree, especially on assault automatic weapons.





If you are ignorant of the facts why do you insist on commenting?

One more time.

What you call "Assault" weapons are just mean looking guns and Automatic rifles are heavily regulated, cost 1000's of dollars and require a F.B.I. background Check along with permission from the local constabulary.


OK Nobody is walking down to the local gun shop and walking out with a machine gun. Got it?

[Firstgear]

It's too bad that with all the FREEDOM (this word has to be uppercase, right?) that our American neighbours have, they are not FREE to elect a government that they are not afraid of.

[schmenke]

Yep restrictive Gun laws is working out just great for you guys,

http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-most-violent-country-in-Europe-Britain-is-also-worse-than-South-Africa-and-U.S.-Mail-Online-Mozilla-Firefox-1252012-91729-PM.bmp.jpg

BTW the USA comes in with 386.3 per 100,000 residents.

Good Lord Vop, don't even bother posting... :s

[anthonyvop]

It's too bad that with all the FREEDOM (this word has to be uppercase, right?) that our American neighbours have, they are not FREE to elect a government that they are not afraid of.


Afraid? Not at all. The government is afraid of us. And that is how it should be.

[SGWilko]

Yep restrictive Gun laws is working out just great for you guys,

http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-most-violent-country-in-Europe-Britain-is-also-worse-than-South-Africa-and-U.S.-Mail-Online-Mozilla-Firefox-1252012-91729-PM.bmp.jpg

BTW the USA comes in with 386.3 per 100,000 residents.

Oh, how spiffing!

You do realise the population densities may just skew the figures an teeny itty wittle bit, don't you.

Apparently, they only had one fatal shooting in oompa loompa land last year - shame it was a 50% death rate though, and the population has suddenly halved...... :rolleyes:

[Roamy]

Afraid? Not at all. The government is afraid of us. And that is how it should be.

Yes Tony and that is why the Gov wants our guns so badly. Obama wants is own protection force much like the Republican Guard. How many civilians now dead in Syria?
But due to the vicious and violent history of the Euros they need to live under strict control of the Government and military. Sh!t you can't even go to a Soccer game without
risking you life.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Yes Tony and that is why the Gov wants our guns so badly. Obama wants is own protection force much like the Republican Guard. How many civilians now dead in Syria?
But due to the vicious and violent history of the Euros they need to live under strict control of the Government and military. Sh!t you can't even go to a Soccer game without
risking you life.

I'm finding it hard tell if you're being serious or mocking Mr. Vop?

[Starter]

It's too bad that with all the FREEDOM (this word has to be uppercase, right?) that our American neighbours have, they are not FREE to elect a government that they are not afraid of.
It's more to be certain that some future government doesn't decide that we don't need elections. There is a difference between the two you know.

[Starter]

Oh, how spiffing!

You do realise the population densities may just skew the figures an teeny itty wittle bit, don't you.

Apparently, they only had one fatal shooting in oompa loompa land last year - shame it was a 50% death rate though, and the population has suddenly halved...... :rolleyes:
I assume you didn't bother to read the column header on the right side of the chart?

[SGWilko]

I assume you didn't bother to read the column header on the right side of the chart?

We are talking (multiple) death(s) from gun crime are we not?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The table Mr. Vop posted uses data from each individual nations records. It may be worth noting that what is classed and reported as a 'violent crime' will vary from country to country. So any comparision between nations is pointless.

[donKey jote]

According to the BBC, his mother pulled him out of the school and taught him at home because she was unhappy with the school district's plan for his education.
Was she also a prepper? Preparing for the -in her mind- imminent social chaos by (legally!) hoarding guns and teaching her son to use them.
She didn't live to see the social chaos her son caused.


The solution? Not more control or disarming of the borderline deranged, that would go against their freedom and enrage the vops, no... arm all the teachers! Riiiight. :dozey:

[D-Type]

Yep restrictive Gun laws is working out just great for you guys,

http://www.bookwormroom.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/The-most-violent-country-in-Europe-Britain-is-also-worse-than-South-Africa-and-U.S.-Mail-Online-Mozilla-Firefox-1252012-91729-PM.bmp.jpg

BTW the USA comes in with 386.3 per 100,000 residents.Did the place you copied that from include tables for burglary, for robbery and for homicide?
Are the definitions the same in all countries considered?

[ioan]

Do you need to be banned again? Since I'm not a Mod these days, I can't do it, but I'll be happy to report your insults if you wish.

So now you're bullying me?
Go ahead report me, I didn't insult anyone anyway.

[ioan]

well while we are having this discussion lets at least balance out the history: Now I have not checked on bombings but will probably do that as well.



April 1982 - SOUTH KOREA (http://www.reuters.com/places/south-korea?lc=int_mb_1001) - Police officer Woo Bum Kong went on a drunken rampage in Sang-Namdo with rifles and hand grenades, killing 57 people and wounding 38 before blowing himself up.
August 19, 1987 - BRITAIN - Michael Ryan, a 27-year-old gun fanatic rampaged through the English town of Hungerford, killing 16 people and wounding 11 before shooting himself.
July 1989 - FRANCE (http://www.reuters.com/places/france?lc=int_mb_1001) - A French farmer shot and killed 14 people including members of his family in the village of Luxiol, near the Swiss border. He was wounded and captured by police.
December 1989 - CANADA - A 25-year-old war movie fan with a grudge against women shot dead 14 young women at the University of Montreal, then killed himself.
November 1990 - NEW ZEALAND - A gun-mad loner killed 11 men, women and children in a 24-hour rampage in the tiny New Zealand seaside village of Aramoana. He was killed by police.
September 1995 - FRANCE (http://www.reuters.com/places/france?lc=int_mb_1001) - A 16-year-old youth ran amok with a rifle in the town of Cuers, killing 16 people and then himself after an argument with his parents.
March 13, 1996 - BRITAIN - Gunman Thomas Hamilton burst into a primary school in the Scottish town of Dunblane and shot dead 16 children and their teacher before killing himself.
April 28, 1996 - AUSTRALIA (http://www.reuters.com/places/australia?lc=int_mb_1001) - Martin Bryant unleashed modern Australia's worst mass murder when he shot dead 35 people at the Port Arthur tourist site in the southern state of Tasmania.
April 1999 - USA - Two heavily-armed teenagers went on a rampage at Columbine High School in Littleton, Denver, shooting 13 students and staff before taking their own lives.
July 1999 - USA - A gunman killed nine people at two brokerages in Atlanta, after apparently killing his wife and two children. He committed suicide five hours later.
June 2001 - NEPAL - Eight members of the Nepalese Royal family were killed in a palace massacre by Crown Prince Dipendra who later turned a gun on himself and died few days later. His youngest brother also died later raising the death toll to 10.
April 26, 2002 - GERMANY (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany?lc=int_mb_1001) - In Erfurt, eastern Germany (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany), 19-year-old Robert Steinhauser opened fire after saying he was not going to take a math test. He killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two pupils and a policeman at the Gutenberg Gymnasium, before killing himself.
October 2002 - USA - John Muhammad and Lee Malvo killed 10 people in sniper-style shooting deaths that terrorized the Washington, D.C., area.
April 16, 2007 - USA - Virginia Tech, a university in Blacksburg, Virginia, became the site of the deadliest rampage in U.S. history when a gunman killed 32 people and himself.
November 7, 2007 - FINLAND - Pekka-Eric Auvinen killed six fellow students, the school nurse and the principal and himself with a handgun at the Jokela High School near Helsinki.
September 23, 2008 - FINLAND - Student Matti Saari opened fire in a vocational school in Kauhajoki in northwest Finland, killing nine other students and one male staff member before killing himself.
March 11, 2009 - GERMANY (http://www.reuters.com/places/germany?lc=int_mb_1001) - A 17-year-old gunman dressed in black combat gear killed nine students and three teachers at a school near Stuttgart. He also killed one other person at a nearby clinic. He was later killed in a shoot-out with police. Two additional passers-by were killed and two policemen seriously injured, bringing the death toll to 16 including the gunman.
June 2, 2010 - BRITAIN - Gunman Derrick Bird opened fire on people in towns across the rural county of Cumbria. Twelve people were killed and 11 injured. Bird also killed himself.
August 30, 2010 - SLOVAKIA - A gunman shot dead six members of a Roma family and another woman in the Slovak capital Bratislava before killing himself. Fourteen more people were wounded.
April 9, 2011 - NETHERLANDS - Tristan van der Vlis opened fire in the Ridderhof mall in Alphen aan den Rijn, south of Amsterdam, killing six before turning the gun on himself.
July 22, 2011 - NORWAY (http://www.reuters.com/places/norway?lc=int_mb_1001) - Police seize a gunman who killed at least 68 people at a youth summer camp of Norway's ruling political party, on the small, holiday island of Utoeya. Anders Behring Breivik is later charged with the killings, as well as with an earlier bombing in the center of Oslo which killed at least eight people. He appears in a closed court hearing in Oslo on July 25 and is ordered detained for eight weeks in solitary confinement.

I think you are missing a few USA cases, especially quite a few recent ones.

[Rollo]

Did the place you copied that from include tables for burglary, for robbery and for homicide?
Are the definitions the same in all countries considered?

Using the British definitions on US Crime stats:
Burglary: 716.3
Robbery: 2319.3
Homicide: 6.6

This graphic which came from the Daily Mail, is for the EU. Britain in terms of the rules surrounding gun ownership actually has the most lax laws in the EU.
So yes, "restrictive Gun laws is working out just great" because the countries with more restrictive Gun laws have fewer crimes.

[Roamy]

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!

[ioan]

The table Mr. Vop posted uses data from each individual nations records. It may be worth noting that what is classed and reported as a 'violent crime' will vary from country to country. So any comparision between nations is pointless.

Bingo!
Any chart about violence where the USA is not top of it, let alone in top ten is not credible.

As I said 20 killing a year in Vienna, Austria, which totals 2 million of the 8 million inhabitants and is the most violent part of the country anyway, and Austria ranks 2nd in the world according to Vop's chart, most probably every ski accident has been accounted for as a violent crime. :D

[ioan]

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!

My finger points to the US for those bombings anyway, so what's you issue with the euros now?

[Roamy]

My finger points to the US for those bombings anyway, so what's you issue with the euros now?

See excellent point why we MUST stay armed. You Euros blame us for everything wrong with the world. We have to buy allies in the middle east and asia to avert a nuclear war which is on the horizon thanks you Euros not policing your own neighbors.

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer. You guys sit on your butts allowing Iran to go nuclear and then you will be crying to the world when you realize you could be in the path. I know your answer is to just go Muslim which you are and then you can band together with the rest of our enemies. Well the end game is going to be a hell of a light show so for that no guns will be necessary.

[donKey jote]

well according to the news bombings in pakistan and iraq killed over 50 people today - but i guess these don't count - the euros only care about disarming Americans. Kind of interesting I would say!!
I guess the euros couldn't care less about what you do with your unalienable rights.
Kind of interesting the paranoidos only care about arming their kindergartens!

[donKey jote]

Regarding this thread: If you can stand there and shoot your Mother in the face then gun control is far from the answer.
The guy apparently had mental issues and part of the answer is surely not so easy access to guns for people with such mental issues.
The mother also appeared to have mental issues.

[SGWilko]

The guy was a nut and part of the answer is not so easy access to guns for nuts.
The mother also appeared to be a nut.

Conclusion - there's a lot of nuts over there, and the combination of nut + gun(s) = not good.

Are we too busy being careful not to 'upset' everyone by allowing these 'nuts' more freedom in case we oppress their civil liberties, human rights etc?