2012 Brazilian Grand Prix - Title Decider

[Ranger]

Round 20 of 20: Brazilian Grand Prix
Autódromo José Carlos Pace, Sao Paulo, Brazil.

Date: 25 November 2012.

Track Length: 4.309 kilometres.
Number of Turns: 15.
Number of Laps: 71.
Lap Record: 1:11.473, Juan Pablo Montoya, Williams BMW, 2004.

http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/1/14200/1066489-jc_large.gif

WDC Standings:

1. Vettel: 273 points, 5 wins.
2. Alonso: 260 points, 3 wins.

For Alonso to win the championship, he must:
- Win, with Vettel finishing 5th or lower.
- Finish second, with Vettel finishing 8th or lower.
- Finish third, with Vettel finishing 10th or lower.

For Vettel to win the championship, he must:
- Finish 4th or higher, regardless of wherever Alonso finishes.

In all other points eventualities, including a points tie, Vettel will win the championship.
______________________

For what it is worth, five days in advance, current predictions for Sunday are a 60% chance of rain. (http://www.weather.com/weather/weekend/Sao+Paulo+BRXX0232:1:BR)

Unless Vettel's RB8 expires, I find it extremely hard to think that Alonso will win the championship on Sunday.

Nonetheless, he has won both of his titles at Sao Paulo and strange things happen, especially here.

I can't wait. :s mokin:

[Mark]

Agreed. If Vettel is in the race chances are he'll finish in the top 4. Even starting at the back he'd finish in the top 4. So we are basically looking at Red Bull unreliability. Even then if Vettel is out, Alonso needs to finish on the podium, which itself is far from guaranteed.

[AndyL]

Even then if Vettel is out, Alonso needs to finish on the podium, which itself is far from guaranteed.

Quite likely though - no matter what happens in Brazil, Alonso will have stood on the podium more times than anyone else this season.

[The Black Knight]

Yep, quite unlikely that Alonso will win but I really hope he does as he has been great.. He has done amazing things with that car this year and I really feel that he, above all others, deserves to be a 3 time world drivers champion.

[Donney]

It looks fantastic for Vettel but I predict Hamilton will win the race, Alonso will be second and Vettel will retire after having an accident due to a safety car caused by Grosjean.

[gloomyDAY]

Boys, it's going to rain this weekend! :crazy:

I can't wait. Finally, two races in a row that's in a decent window for me to watch.

[ArrowsFA1]

Logic says Vettel will get the points he needs, and yet...Alonso has kept himself in the title fight and has been confident all along that he will come out the winner. His confidence, and supreme ability, makes me think that somehow he will come out on top in Brazil, and he would be a very deserving champion.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

2008 and Hamilton only needs to finish 5th. And what a race we had!

It's Vettels to lose and it will be interesting to see how he copes with the pressure. In 2010 nobody expected him to win. 2011 he had won by mid-season. The is the first time he is under some serious pressure.

[N4D13]

Sheeeeeet... I won't be able to watch this race! I'll be on a plane at that time... :'(

Well, that's what ThePirateBay is there for... :)

[i_max2k2]

I think Alonso deserves to be a 3 Time WDC, but it doesn't look very easy, I was hoping Alonso finished in US at par on points, but we'll see. 2008 was pretty awesome hopefully it rains there this time too! :)


Sheeeeeet... I won't be able to watch this race! I'll be on a plane at that time... :'(

Well, that's what ThePirateBay is there for... :)


Make sure you dont watch any news before you get the download :) , watching a race not knowing the results is always great!

[Javi_racing]

I believe alonso is gonna win this Sunday :P will rain a lot, Fernando will take his magic out, and Vettel will suffer some sort of problem

I would bet for Alonso, I am not kidding xD luck will be compensated after all

[tfp]

If Bieber does finish, it will be at least 4th I am sure, if not higher. If he does make it to the end he is champion. The only hope for Fred is if RBR have reliability problems. So I cant see it going any other way than Seb being a 3 time champion. I would be a load more happy this year because the title race has certainly been an interesting one, unlike last year!

[Robinho]

If it rains it could make it an incredibly interesting finale, even without rain I predict a good race, but barring rain or unreliability I can't see anything but at least a Vettel podium and a 3rd title. The IF's are looming pretty large though

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Rollo]

Massa will pit very early to put his car out of step with the field and into 24th position. His car will struggle all weekend and as Vettel comes up to lap him, the gearbox will seize, "mysteriously" stopping the rear wheels, sending his car into the side of Vettel's wherein Alonso will finish 5th and win the title.

[zako85]

Points spread is close enough that "anything happens" theory is valid. In 2010, Vettel was less likely than Alonso or Webber to take the title, yet it took it. If you look at IndyCar finale this year, Hunter-Reay entered the race as an underdog, but he won the title because Power made a mistake. Car reliability is a serious issue for RedBull. Do not forget the possibilities of collisions on the start, collisions with lap cars, spins, etc.

[N. Jones]

I predict reliability woes for Hamilton and Vettel, allowing Alonso to win the race and title.

It's going to be a great race, whether it rains or not!

[Big Ben]

So this is most likely going to be the third time Alonso will lose a title in the final race of the season... that must be really frustrating

[Donney]

Indeed but much better losing it in the final race than 4 races before (or any other number of them).

[SGWilko]

So this is most likely going to be the third time Alonso will lose a title in the final race of the season... that must be really frustrating

FOr Red Bull, there is that niggling reliability issue they will be conscious of.

Will they go all out for the win and risk stressing the car, or take it easy and risk losing positions?

Makes for a great season finale. Lets hope Lewis piles on the pressure again, and Seb makes a mistake that requires a blitz back through the field.

Seb or Alonso, they'd both be worthy winners.

[Mia 01]

The last and title desicion race is coming up. For me the hope is that Kimi holds on to third place, he has a 16 points lead over Lewis so he could do it. Seb will win the WDC if he not DFN.

[The Black Knight]

FOr Red Bull, there is that niggling reliability issue they will be conscious of.

Will they go all out for the win and risk stressing the car, or take it easy and risk losing positions?

Makes for a great season finale. Lets hope Lewis piles on the pressure again, and Seb makes a mistake that requires a blitz back through the field.

Seb or Alonso, they'd both be worthy winners.

Yes but the alternator had been changed for Brazil. It has passed all the tests and was used by all Renault teams excepting Red Bull at the last GP. RBR are going to use it for Brazil so there may be no reliability problems at all. They take a risk into the unknown either way.

[SGWilko]

Yes but the alternator had been changed for Brazil. It has passed all the tests and was used by all Renault teams excepting Red Bull at the last GP. RBR are going to use it for Brazil so there may be no reliability problems at all. They take a risk into the unknown either way.

Do we know why the Bulls chose not to use it in Austin?

[SGWilko]

Do we know why the Bulls chose not to use it in Austin?

Here! Renault: Red Bull will use new-spec alternator in Brazil - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104409) Foot and shoot springs to mind!

[F1boat]

My personal hope is that Vettel will win the championship. I find him to be more likeable than Alonso and I really believe that in the end he is more talented. However, I will be happy if Alonso wins as well. He really drove very well this season and a Ferrari championship win is always something special. I also hope that Kimi will manage to remain 3rd in the championship. However, I am reluctant to make any predictions. Brazil is quite crazy track and everything can happen, even if it is dry.

[truefan72]

Hamilton who is in the form of his life will take pole and the win...

Vettel will be in p2 on the grid, Webber p3 and Alonso p4
at the start, Webber will have his typical poor start and Alonso will dive past him in the first corner,
then at the 4th corner Vettel will outbreak himself slightly in trying to pass Hamilton, Alonso will pull beside him and the two of them will be side to side going into the 5th corner where they have a coming together and both crash out. We will then spend the entire winter debating who's fault it is, if Vettel was schumiesqe in his diabolical approach in a strange farewell ode to that man, or if Alonso should have conceded the position, although slightly ahead, in order for a fighting chance throughout the race. All this compounded by the damp conditions, and as the rain arrives, knowing Alonso's skill on those conditions, we are all left with wondering what might have happened. especially since the RBR looked to struggle in the one wet FP1 session.

Sadly Schumi will end his F1 career in yet another retirement, Rosberg will finish out of the points and both Saubers will finish with a 3rd and 8th position respectively, overtaking Mercedes for 5th
Kimi will finish 2nd chased by Button for the whole race who will not overtake him, make a mistake and allow Perez to pass him as well. Webber and Maldonado will be on for 5th and 6th until the two have a coming together that takes both of them out.

that is how I see the whole thing playing out
;)

[Firstgear]

I see it a bit differently. ;)

Vettel, Hamilton & Alonso qualify 1, 2 & 3. They retain these positions thru the first two laps. On lap three the skies open and both Vettel & Hamilton beach their cars in the sand. Alonso now leads and is opening a large gap to the rest of the field after everyone pits for wets. The forecast calls for the rain to become even heavier and continue for the rest of the day. On lap 8, the visibility is so bad that one third of the grid is involved in incidents and retire. On lap 9 the race is called due to the extreme weather.

Alonso wins the race and is awarded 12.5 points for the weather shortened race - giving the WDC to Vettel by half a point. :p

[Javi_racing]

I see it a bit differently. ;)

Vettel, Hamilton & Alonso qualify 1, 2 & 3. They retain these positions thru the first two laps. On lap three the skies open and both Vettel & Hamilton beach their cars in the sand. Alonso now leads and is opening a large gap to the rest of the field after everyone pits for wets. The forecast calls for the rain to become even heavier and continue for the rest of the day. On lap 8, the visibility is so bad that one third of the grid is involved in incidents and retire. On lap 9 the race is called due to the extreme weather.

Alonso wins the race and is awarded 12.5 points for the weather shortened race - giving the WDC to Vettel by half a point. :p

Heheheheheh good one xD :p

[Tazio]

This race will take the kind of luck that I just don't see happening to Alonso, or against Vettel. However anything can happen and I'm very happy that the decider is Brazil where rain can make dreams come true, or turn into Vettels worst freakin' nightmare! :p : ;)

[truefan72]

I see it a bit differently. ;)

Vettel, Hamilton & Alonso qualify 1, 2 & 3. They retain these positions thru the first two laps. On lap three the skies open and both Vettel & Hamilton beach their cars in the sand. Alonso now leads and is opening a large gap to the rest of the field after everyone pits for wets. The forecast calls for the rain to become even heavier and continue for the rest of the day. On lap 8, the visibility is so bad that one third of the grid is involved in incidents and retire. On lap 9 the race is called due to the extreme weather.

Alonso wins the race and is awarded 12.5 points for the weather shortened race - giving the WDC to Vettel by half a point. :p

lol even more controversial :)
there would be calls to award full points
questions why the race wasn't red flagged and restarted
questions why they could not just have it run the next day
Ferrari will threaten to boycott
RBR will be celebrating like they earned it
I don't think hamilton will beach it in this scenario, although I can see an electronics issue retiring him

good one though

keep em coming guys!

[gloomyDAY]

Hamilton who is in the form of his life will take pole and the win...Ha! Hamilton fans can't even High-5 right.

http://img.jmorais.com/5rgpe8pq.gif

What makes you think you can predict the results of a race?

[truefan72]

Ha! Hamilton fans can't even High-5 right.

http://img.jmorais.com/5rgpe8pq.gif

What makes you think you can predict the results of a race?

lol I did see that
it was a sad sight :rolleyes:

[JasonPotato]

Wonder what the odds are for Alonso to win the title, might be worth a bet ;)

[The Black Knight]

My personal hope is that Vettel will win the championship. I find him to be more likeable than Alonso and I really believe that in the end he is more talented. However, I will be happy if Alonso wins as well. He really drove very well this season and a Ferrari championship win is always something special. I also hope that Kimi will manage to remain 3rd in the championship. However, I am reluctant to make any predictions. Brazil is quite crazy track and everything can happen, even if it is dry.

You may very well be right about that but I don't see it yet. Really a championship should be decided based the season as a whole, not on whether someone is likable. I personally don't like Alonso much either, though I think he has matured over the last few years since McLaren. I have seen a dogged fighter this year, a driver at the top of his game and I can't remember him making one mistake. There are very few drivers in history that have driven to the level Alonso has this season, maybe Senna 1993 or Schumacher 1998 is all. He has really proven his worth. Vettel, on the other hand, has had his ups and downs. When the car has been great, he's been great, when it hasn't, he hasn't. My personal opinion on Vettel is that he has maximized the cars potential on days when it was a good car but he didn't shine like Alonso has when the car was not underneath him.

But, you know, you don't get to be in the hunt for the WDC in the last race without having driven a great season either. I guess both would be worthy victors, I just feel Alonso deserves it more.

[The Black Knight]

Apart from winning the championship Lewis has always been fairly unlucky results wise in Brazil. It would be nice to see him win again and end the season on a high whilst the championship goes to someone else. I'd rather see Alonso take it. I don't particularly like some of his behaviour in the past but I think he's a decent guy and a brilliant racing driver. He's been consistent this season and driven possibly the best all year after Hamilton for me. Vettel is deserving too of course but he's had two championships in a row already and I feel it will be good for the sport to see a different winner this year.

I can't believe how close it is in points between Button and Hamilton. If Lewis retires from the last race and Button makes it into the top 5 or 6, then he will have beaten Hamilton in 2 of the 3 years. That's not really a fair assessment of their performances this year, with Lewis hitting more than his fair share of bad luck. Two race wins taken away through unreliability, and podiums lost through botched pitstops. Button has hit similar issues but not lost anywhere near as many points as a result. If that worse case scenario happens, I will still be happy Lewis was the better of the two over the three years, but that's the cruel side of racing I suppose. I hope for a Hamilton win in Brazil. :)

Button is on 163 points, Hamilton 190. Button can no longer beat Hamilton in the driver's championship, but yes, it is closer than it should be but that's mainly because of the incredible bad luck Hamilton has had. As I said already, Hamilton would have won the WDC this year were it not for McLaren screw ups.

[The Black Knight]

Hamilton's luck has been far worse than you realize. He has had two races at the start of the year Malaysia and Bahrain, I think, where he lost points because of botched pit stops from McLaren. Spain he probably would have won were it not for McLaren under fueling his car in qualifying. Two race victories snatched away from him, compromised in another two races because of suspension issues, idiot Maldonado in Valencia, puncture in Germany ruining his race. It's a wonder really that he is as close as he is. As I said before, he has lost over 120 points due to issues which were by and large out of his control.

[The Black Knight]

I think he is driver of the season no doubt, then again I am a Hamilton fan, but its clear he's been at the top of his game this year. They say unreliability, bad luck is part of racing but with so many issues within the teams control you have to accept that McLaren have seriously under performed this year. The title would have been theirs and Lewis has driven better than anybody IMO.

Honestly, I am a Hamilton fan as well but I think Alonso has just been a little better, simply because Hamilton has actually been beaten by Button on two occasions this year, Alonso, to my memory was never beaten by his, albeit much weaker teammate than Hamilton has. Alonso just pips driver of the year for me, with Hamilton second and Vettel third.

[Dave B]

There'll be a massive rainstorm just before the start and the ensuing chaos will bring us our 9th different winner of the year: Michael Schumacher's retirement present :p

[AndyL]

There'll be a massive rainstorm just before the start and the ensuing chaos will bring us our 9th different winner of the year: Michael Schumacher's retirement present :p

You know that would actually be quite nice. It would also end the season with all of our record 6 former champions having won a race.

Did I really just hope for a Schumacher win? :crazy:

[Robinho]

****, I think even I could raise a cheer in that situation

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[SGWilko]

****, I think even I could raise a cheer in that situation

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Wouldn't dissapoint, would it?

Sent from my HP keyboard using my limbs.

[SGWilko]

Sent from my coffee stained Dell using my tongue.

Kinky!

[SGWilko]

I won't even mention what I am wearing :p

I can see, you've left the web cam on. I must say, there are laws against that.....

[The Black Knight]

I'd be overwhelmed with joy if Schumacher won his last race. After the miserable luck he has had this year, the way he has driven how much he has contributed to the sport throughout the years, he really deserves a stroke of luck his way and to win one final race. I wouldn't care who won the championship if he won his final race. No one would be more deserving of victory than him.

[Javi_racing]

You may very well be right about that but I don't see it yet. Really a championship should be decided based the season as a whole, not on whether someone is likable. I personally don't like Alonso much either, though I think he has matured over the last few years since McLaren. I have seen a dogged fighter this year, a driver at the top of his game and I can't remember him making one mistake. There are very few drivers in history that have driven to the level Alonso has this season, maybe Senna 1993 or Schumacher 1998 is all. He has really proven his worth. Vettel, on the other hand, has had his ups and downs. When the car has been great, he's been great, when it hasn't, he hasn't. My personal opinion on Vettel is that he has maximized the cars potential on days when it was a good car but he didn't shine like Alonso has when the car was not underneath him.

But, you know, you don't get to be in the hunt for the WDC in the last race without having driven a great season either. I guess both would be worthy victors, I just feel Alonso deserves it more.

Well said :) I agree with you in everything. You can like alonso or not, but what he has done this season is admirable, imo he deserves THIS tittle much more than any other!


Regarding last comments, personally I also put Alonso and Hamilton as the two best drivers of this moment. I love both them, how the fight, their skill to get the most of a car which is not so good... In general, the most complete and best drivers, I love to see they fighting each other :P the thing might put alonso better than ham, is just that he doesn't make a single mistake, his constancy. Anyway I hope to see both them fighting for wdc next year, beside Sebastian :)

[jarrambide]

My personal hope is that Vettel will win the championship. I find him to be more likeable than Alonso and I really believe that in the end he is more talented. However, I will be happy if Alonso wins as well. He really drove very well this season and a Ferrari championship win is always something special. I also hope that Kimi will manage to remain 3rd in the championship. However, I am reluctant to make any predictions. Brazil is quite crazy track and everything can happen, even if it is dry.

I have noticed that most drivers are very likeable, until they start winning championships, I used to like Alonso, Hamilton, and Vettel, now I can't stand them

[F1boat]

There'll be a massive rainstorm just before the start and the ensuing chaos will bring us our 9th different winner of the year: Michael Schumacher's retirement present :p

This will be the best finale of the season. I would probably cry from joy if it happens, regardless of the championship result.
Black Knight, as I said it is a matter of belief... I think that Seb is very young and the fact that he achieved so much in such young age is phenomenal, even as a driver of such great team as Red Bull. And likeability definitely matters in a choice of a fan.

[The Black Knight]

In fairness you have admitted a dislike of Hamilton's character yet he's known to be very fan friendly. I met him after the 2008 British GP and he was a really down to earth guy who chatted on peoples levels.

This guy met him after the US GP:

We stalked the hotel lobbies in Austin hoping to maybe meet a few of the drivers. We got pretty lucky I think. :) : formula1 (http://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/13jzo8/we_stalked_the_hotel_lobbies_in_austin_hoping_to/)

Yep, Hamilton is a really nice guy. He does says some stupid things at times but he's simply passionate and he's the best out of all the drivers with the fans. In the rain soaked British GP Practice sessions he was the one going out waving to the fans while others were sitting in their garage.

F1Boat it's a matter of standards. I apply the highest standard to what I term great, you don't. I require a driver to prove he's great beyond doubt, something I don't think Hamilton has fully done yet either, you don't. That's the main difference between you and I. Personality has nothing to do with it and I'm completely unattached when applying the term great to someone as it's a label that should be earned, and Alonso has earned it. But hey, you're welcome to your POV, don't worry I'm not trying to take it away from you ;)

[gloomyDAY]

I think Mike's going to do something really brave/stupid/semi-suicidal before leaving Formula 1. Mike's been running around at the back of the grid, so I think Mercedes are going to be aggressive and let the chains off the wolfhound in Brazil.

I can't freakin' wait. Also, I'm going to my father-in-law's for Thanksgiving, so a 60-inch HDTV is waiting for the finale.

[jens]

Good discussions here. I have a slightly uneasy feeling before the last race. The gap is only 13 points, one reliability issue and the WDC can go out of the window for Sebastian. Also based on what we have seen so far this year, wet weather suits Ferrari, so they have a decent chance in the wet as well, also the strategies can become tricky.

We could have a dramatic race. Recall 2007 and 2008, when Hamilton had a similar task to what Vettel has now. In 2007 LH had a reliability issue (something which RBR fears a lot now), the gearbox seized for 30 secs and the WDC was gone. 2008 was exactly the case of tricky strategies in changing conditions. Hamilton pitted for inters late in the race, which almost cost him a place to Glock, who didn't pit. Also McLaren took it really safely and conservatively in the final race.

Wonder, how much will RBR push the car in Brazil. Will they go for a win or will Seb rather try to cruise to a podium like in Japan 2011? But as the evidence from 2008 suggest, "cruising" is also always not safe if circumstances put you into a slightly unfavorable position.

Also as usually fans like to have a lot of discussion about the merits of Alonso-Hamilton-Vettel again here. :) Well, to me they are very well matched, almost in a tie. I know it is popular to view Alonso as basically flawless, but we can't be sure he always extracts 100% from the car either, although very often he is rather impressive. For instance Massa has actually looked faster than Alonso in some of the late-season races. So that's why for me there is little to choose between the big three. Most of the time they are rather fast, on occasion they can be slightly off-pace.

While Vettel has got some criticism for his "underperformances", then really the only occasions, where he was off-pace, were a few qualifying sessions, where he failed to get into Q3. But in race trim he has been fast all season. I can't remember a race, where he lacked pace - perhaps only at Silverstone had trouble keeping up with Webber.

[steveaki13]

I cannot wait for this race. I know Seb is in a good position, but a wet race and one mistake or a realiability issue could see it fall into Alonso's hands.

I think in a dry race with no issues, then the Red Bull is so quick that Seb could easily finish in the top 4.

I personally hope Fernando wins the title in a wet race where Seb has to come from last to 5th and Fernando wins on the last lap.

[steveaki13]

This is what I think could happen albeit conflicting what I put above.

Seb Qualifies on Pole, Mark Second, Alonso 3rd & Hamilton 4th.

Off the line Mark falls to 4th and Alonso gets a run on Seb into the back straight. He squeezes Alonso but Alonso dives up the inside and Seb spins off and rejoins 24th.

Alonso & Hamilton battle for 70 laps for the race lead despite Alonso going for the title. Meanwhile Seb passes one car after another and by lap 70 is up to 5th.

Onto the last lap and Alonso leads Hamilton, Button is 3rd and Mark 4th, Vettel is now 5th.

Hamilton passes Alonso into the final corner and wins while Alonso finishes 2nd. Button comes through 3rd and into the last couple of corners Red Bull give Mark the call to let Seb past for the title.

He moves over to yield but doesn't realise that Sebs gone to the outside and takes him out and retires his car. Vettel jumps out of the car and starts pushing it up the hill on the home straight to try and cross the line, but its too late the rest of the field rush through and finish.

Seb loses the title after a great comeback drive, Webber gets sacked in front of the media, Hamilton & Alonso celebrate on top of the podium and F1 has a new world champion.

Then 2013 gets a rule tweek as it was too dull in 2012. :rolleyes:

[Kielder]

http://i47.tinypic.com/2el9imb.jpg

[Knock-on]

Boys, it's going to rain this weekend! :crazy:

I can't wait. Finally, two races in a row that's in a decent window for me to watch.

Well, it was 35 degrees this morning at 09:30 and has been hot all day but I actually felt 2 drops of rain this evening. When it rains over her it's like a freaking monsoon with lightnng you can only dream of.

Officially, it's getting colder all week with rain coming in on Saturday and Sunday but I have a whisper it might clean up towards the latter part of the weekend. Don't worry boys, I'm outside doing a rain dance as we speak as that's the only way to try and even out this lopsided championship out a bit.

Red Bull are the new Ferrari in the eyes of the FIA and I hope Alonso does it, even if it don't affect the dosh.

[AndyL]

http://i47.tinypic.com/2el9imb.jpg

That's good! Link to larger version: http://i47.tinypic.com/2el9imb.jpg

[AndyL]

My prediction for the race: the Ferrari crosses the line in first, and the team celebrate as the previous championship leader is 30 seconds behind and has slipped too far down the field to stop them taking the WDC. He's even behind Timo Glock, who's had a great race and moved up the field by staying out on slicks when it started raining. But Glock is struggling on the wet track, and on the final lap he loses 4th place to Vettel and then 5th to Hamilton, and the WDC is snatched out of Ferrari's hands.

What year is it now, by the way? My watch says 2008 :)

[TMorel]

HRT uncover some dirt on Bernie that could prove beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty of bribery.
In a panic, Ecclestone orchestrates to have the entire field apart from HRT excluded from the championship standings, resulting in Narain Karthikeyan being declared winner.
Hearing that once again it’s that damn cucumber, Vettel snaps and in an extreme bout of finger wagging he strains his hand and is subsequently withdrawn from the 2013 championship on medical grounds – the 2013 championship by the way is won by Hamilton as he discovers the reason the Mercs were so slow this year was simply because Schumi , fearful of a global banking collapse, had tucked his entire fortune in gold bullion behind the bulkhead in place of the KERS system on both cars, with this weight removed Lewis romps home.

Back in the real world, Brazil turns out to be a boring race and Seb takes the title in a dull and predictable way.

[The Black Knight]

HRT uncover some dirt on Bernie that could prove beyond reasonable doubt that he is guilty of bribery.
In a panic, Ecclestone orchestrates to have the entire field apart from HRT excluded from the championship standings, resulting in Narain Karthikeyan being declared winner.
Hearing that once again it’s that damn cucumber, Vettel snaps and in an extreme bout of finger wagging he strains his hand and is subsequently withdrawn from the 2013 championship on medical grounds – the 2013 championship by the way is won by Hamilton as he discovers the reason the Mercs were so slow this year was simply because Schumi , fearful of a global banking collapse, had tucked his entire fortune in gold bullion behind the bulkhead in place of the KERS system on both cars, with this weight removed Lewis romps home.

Back in the real world, Brazil turns out to be a boring race and Seb takes the title in a dull and predictable way.

Yeah but Lewis has his big black mickey so, you know, it all kinda evens out :p Turns out he's just quicker ;)

[The Black Knight]

Seems like other drives also feel that Alonso deserves to be champion:

Button thinks Alonso is more deserving of the 2012 F1 title - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104473)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well said :) I agree with you in everything. You can like alonso or not, but what he has done this season is admirable, imo he deserves THIS tittle much more than any other!

Respectfully sir, but that's bull****. All the way since 1950 always the guy with the most points won. And he deserved it, because he had - well - more points than anyone else. If Alonso doesn't win it this year, he might wanna think to switch to a team that builds a less **** car. All his heroics account for nothing if he loses because all he could fight for was 2nd and 3rd place for most of the season, because his car is a complete bag o' balls. There are no style marks in F1. The number of points decide. McLaren had the best car but they blew it by being completely hopeless at doing pitstops. Ferrari had the most reliable car, but they also were reliably mediocre. Red Bull were up there with only a wonky Magneti Marelli alternator able to stop them. Had Vettel not retired twice one of those times comfortably in the lead we'd probably have zero suspense by now.
All the trash talk that Alonso is a more deserving winner is absolute bollocks. The most deserving one is the one who'll have the most points and/or wins (in case of a tie) on Sunday, because either one has done the best he was able to with the resources given to him.

[airshifter]

My prediction for the race: the Ferrari crosses the line in first, and the team celebrate as the previous championship leader is 30 seconds behind and has slipped too far down the field to stop them taking the WDC. He's even behind Timo Glock, who's had a great race and moved up the field by staying out on slicks when it started raining. But Glock is struggling on the wet track, and on the final lap he loses 4th place to Vettel and then 5th to Hamilton, and the WDC is snatched out of Ferrari's hands.

What year is it now, by the way? My watch says 2008 :)

Will Alonso still celebrate as well as Felipe did? Proud day for Felipe, even after the title was gone.



I'm glad it's coming down to a final race, and whoever wins deserves it IMO. Alonso has had a great year considering how twitchy the Ferrari was early in the year, but I give Vettel more credit than most here do. It's not as if Webber is nipping at his heels, so the driver talent must be a good part of the combination.

Best of luck to both drivers. I just hope that lower tier drivers and strange accidents and such stay out of the way and the title fight is down to the two drivers battling it out.

[The Black Knight]

Respectfully sir, but that's bull****. All the way since 1950 always the guy with the most points won. And he deserved it, because he had - well - more points than anyone else. If Alonso doesn't win it this year, he might wanna think to switch to a team that builds a less **** car. All his heroics account for nothing if he loses because all he could fight for was 2nd and 3rd place for most of the season, because his car is a complete bag o' balls. There are no style marks in F1. The number of points decide. McLaren had the best car but they blew it by being completely hopeless at doing pitstops. Ferrari had the most reliable car, but they also were reliably mediocre. Red Bull were up there with only a wonky Magneti Marelli alternator able to stop them. Had Vettel not retired twice one of those times comfortably in the lead we'd probably have zero suspense by now.
All the trash talk that Alonso is a more deserving winner is absolute bollocks. The most deserving one is the one who'll have the most points and/or wins (in case of a tie) on Sunday, because either one has done the best he was able to with the resources given to him.

This is a fairy tale perfect world type scenario that people use to justify pretty crap champions at times and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's not the case that the best driver always wins the championship, we have seen that many times, and never the more evident would that be than this year. It has been clear the level to which Alonso has been driving and just because Seb has had a vastly superior car for most of the year and ends up with more points doesn't mean he deserved it more or drove better. Your reasoning is flawed on many levels. Remember that Alonso had two retirements in Japan and Belgium which were out of his control too. I notice you conveniently forget to mention that in your post.

The best driver doesn't always come out on top I'm afraid but that's a good thing because if they did we'd already know Alonso would be champion on Sunday. I know this is probably hard for you to accept, especially with your fellow country man in the running for Sundays title, but life isn't always fair. It's OK though, as this unpredictability is one of the things that makes it interesting :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

This is a fairy tale perfect world type scenario that people use to justify pretty crap champions at times and it doesn't hold up to scrutiny. It's not the case that the best driver always wins the championship, we have seen that many times, and never the more evident would that be than this year. It has been clear the level to which Alonso has been driving and just because Seb has had a vastly superior car for most of the year and ends up with more points doesn't mean he deserved it more or drove better. Your reasoning is flawed on many levels. Remember that Alonso had two retirements in Japan and Belgium which were out of his control too. I notice you conveniently forget to mention that in your post.

You are trying to judge F1 by style marks. It's like saying 'Yeah, Usain Bolt was first over the line in the 100m, but the guy in second deserves it more, because he's shorter and has the less advanced running shoes'. It's completely ridiculous. Yes, there have been champions in the past, where you know they wouldn't have been champion in any other car than the one they were driving at the time (Hill, Villeneuve come to mind), but even those two weren't undeserving. And how do you come to the conclusion that Alonso drove so much better than anyone else? Half of the races we didn't get to see what Vettel is capable of, because he hadn't have to do something. When he's upfront far enough he controls it. Alonso would have done the same thing had he had the car for it. And that is a wee bit respectless towards Hamilton as well. He was at least equally brilliant throughout the season. The only thing that prevented him from being in the running are the apes in the pitlane.
And would you please kiss goodbye to that fairy tale of the Red Bull being vastly superior? They've been slightly behind the McLaren in the early season and mostly on par with them currently, as was aptly demonstrated in Austin. The fact that RB appeared so far up the road is that McLaren never missed a chance to make themselves look like window-licking idiots whenever one of their cars entered the pits. If the RB is so far better than any other car, Mark's results make that indian bloke look like Tarzio Nuvolari.


The best driver doesn't always come out on top I'm afraid but that's a good thing because if they did we'd already know Alonso would be champion on Sunday. I know this is probably hard for you to accept, especially with your fellow country man in the running for Sundays title, but life isn't always fair. It's OK though, as this unpredictability is one of the things that makes it interesting :)

No flying expletive is given about the driver's nationality from this side. I'm a German, who has spent half of the last 10 years in Russia and who's all-time favourite drivers are a Brit and an Italian (Mansell, Zanardi). I'm ok with Alonso as champion, but also with Vettel. Both deserved it in their own way. Both got the best out of the car on a regular basis with a few exceptions (Vettel in China and Spain, Alonso in Austin), so whoever takes the title on Sunday has thoroughly deserved it.

[F1boat]

Nobody considered the Red Bull to be superior prior to the Japanese Grand Prix, except Garry Walker and he is a pathological Vettel hater. For many races the Red Bull was not a very good car - not bad, but not much better than the Ferrari. Sometimes it was weaker. During these time Vettel collected points and this allowed him to attack during the THREE races (Japan, Korea, India) in which the Red Bull was truly dominant. In Singapore and Abu Dhabi the McLaren was faster - at least in my opinion. Possibly in the US as well.
Of course, Alonso too had an epic season and was very, very smart to collect that many points. But for me, whoever wins will be the best not only for the year, but in the sport as well. Right now I think that Seb is slightly faster and Fred is more cunning and experienced. It is a dream conclusion to a magnificent Formula One championship season. I am delighted that these two are fighting for the F1 crown. For me they are the best of the best of the best :)

[The Black Knight]

You are trying to judge F1 by style marks. It's like saying 'Yeah, Usain Bolt was first over the line in the 100m, but the guy in second deserves it more, because he's shorter and has the less advanced running shoes'. It's completely ridiculous. Yes, there have been champions in the past, where you know they wouldn't have been champion in any other car than the one they were driving at the time (Hill, Villeneuve come to mind), but even those two weren't undeserving. And how do you come to the conclusion that Alonso drove so much better than anyone else? Half of the races we didn't get to see what Vettel is capable of, because he hadn't have to do something. When he's upfront far enough he controls it. Alonso would have done the same thing had he had the car for it. And that is a wee bit respectless towards Hamilton as well. He was at least equally brilliant throughout the season. The only thing that prevented him from being in the running are the apes in the pitlane.
And would you please kiss goodbye to that fairy tale of the Red Bull being vastly superior? They've been slightly behind the McLaren in the early season and mostly on par with them currently, as was aptly demonstrated in Austin. The fact that RB appeared so far up the road is that McLaren never missed a chance to make themselves look like window-licking idiots whenever one of their cars entered the pits. If the RB is so far better than any other car, Mark's results make that indian bloke look like Tarzio Nuvolari.


It's Tazio Nuvolari and should not be mentioned in the same sentence as the Indian guy ;)

Usain Bolt and F1 are not comparable. Usain is not limited by the shoes he wears and he can choose whichever ones he wants, drivers are limited by the machinery they have so they are completely different scenarios, it's just some drivers can get more out of their machinery than others. Alonso's car wasn't up to scratch, we all know this. There wasn't much between the RBR and McLaren this year, I'm comparing RBR to Ferrari, there's a clear gap yet Alonso is still in the running 20 races in. And yes, Hamilton was almost equally brilliant throughout the season and considering by your own admission you agree with this and considering he is so far behind, it just proves my point that the best drivers don't always win the WDC. Fact is that sometimes the best driver doesn't win. My opinion is that Alonso and Hamilton were both brilliant but Alonso tips it because his teammate has been nowhere near him but Hamilton has been beaten twice by Button, granted Button is much better than Felipe, imo.




No flying expletive is given about the driver's nationality from this side. I'm a German, who has spent half of the last 10 years in Russia and who's all-time favourite drivers are a Brit and an Italian (Mansell, Zanardi). I'm ok with Alonso as champion, but also with Vettel. Both deserved it in their own way. Both got the best out of the car on a regular basis with a few exceptions (Vettel in China and Spain, Alonso in Austin), so whoever takes the title on Sunday has thoroughly deserved it.

I don't know what you're on about Alonso in Austin. It was clear to me from the way that car was handling that Felipe's car was much better throughout the weekend. Felipe might have looked better but his car looked better. I'm not sure what went wrong in Austin for Ferrari but it wasn't Alonso. 3rd was the most he could have hoped for either way, he was never keeping up with Hamilton and Vettel so he did get the most out of his car, he finished as high up as the car was capable. To be honest, I think Vettel, Alonso and Hamilton have driven like champions this year and they all deserve a title, but there can be only one, and Alonso deserves it more, unlikely as it is to happen. He didn't have any brain farts like Seb did a few times in Abu Dhabi, or Malaysia with Narain and there were a few more times throughout the year as well. We can keep discussing this for a night and a day of course, but neither of us will change his mind I'm sure ;)

[AndyL]

Respectfully sir, but that's bull****. All the way since 1950 always the guy with the most points won. And he deserved it, because he had - well - more points than anyone else. If Alonso doesn't win it this year, he might wanna think to switch to a team that builds a less **** car. All his heroics account for nothing if he loses because all he could fight for was 2nd and 3rd place for most of the season, because his car is a complete bag o' balls. There are no style marks in F1. The number of points decide. McLaren had the best car but they blew it by being completely hopeless at doing pitstops. Ferrari had the most reliable car, but they also were reliably mediocre. Red Bull were up there with only a wonky Magneti Marelli alternator able to stop them. Had Vettel not retired twice one of those times comfortably in the lead we'd probably have zero suspense by now.
All the trash talk that Alonso is a more deserving winner is absolute bollocks. The most deserving one is the one who'll have the most points and/or wins (in case of a tie) on Sunday, because either one has done the best he was able to with the resources given to him.

So would you say that all WDC wins are equal? Or that the impressiveness of a championship win can only be measured by how many points the winner had over the next guy?

Looking at this year I feel there's more to it than that. When we're talking about the driver's championship, surely winning it in the 3rd best car would be a greater achievement than winning it in the best (or at least equal best) car?

I've said it before but if Alonso takes the WDC on Sunday, it will be one of the greatest championship wins ever. If Vettel takes it, it will be the greatest championship win since last year.

[The Black Knight]

So would you say that all WDC wins are equal? Or that the impressiveness of a championship win can only be measured by how many points the winner had over the next guy?

Looking at this year I feel there's more to it than that. When we're talking about the driver's championship, surely winning it in the 3rd best car would be a greater achievement than winning it in the best (or at least equal best) car?

I've said it before but if Alonso takes the WDC on Sunday, it will be one of the greatest championship wins ever. If Vettel takes it, it will be the greatest championship win since last year.

Possibly the greatest championship win ever. I can't ever remember anyone winning the WDC in the third best car.

[dj_bytedisaster]

And yes, Hamilton was almost equally brilliant throughout the season and considering by your own admission you agree with this and considering he is so far behind, it just proves my point that the best drivers don't always win the WDC.

No driver has ever won a championship on his own. F1 isn't a 1-person sport, so the whole 'best driver' bit is academic. You can be the best driver in the world, you'll look like a complete tool if the car isn't up to it. If a driver prefers slightly oversteering cars and you give him one that understeers, he'll look bad. Give him a midfield car that oversteers slightly and he'll likely look like a hero in it - slightly exaggerated, but not too far from the truth. This is why I think the whole "he's the most deserving one" is bollocks. A driver's achievement over the season is more than just the pressing-the-loud-pedal business on Sundays. You can be the most brilliant driver in the world - if you're not good at setups, you'll have a hard time winning. The "secondary talents" of a driver, like being able to understand and develop a car are even more important these days where testing is limited to a handful of days. And the third component is the team. Alonso should have been champion in 2010 based on the points situation, but he isn't because his team made an idiot call and he later failed to get past a Russian paydriver. I still think you cannot judge a drivers 'deserving a title' on something that cannot be quantified like 'his driving', because it does depend on the car entirely. By that standard Hill should never have been champion, because as an overall package he never could hold a candle to people like Schumacher, Häkkinen, Frentzen or Alesi. Those four have all shown on more than one occasion that they could put cars in a position that was much higher than what the cars were expected to be (Alesi in Phoenix comes to mind or Frentzens 1999 wins, Schumachers wins in 1996 etc). Hill managed that exactly once - 1997 in Hungary. His only ever non-Newey-Williams win was in Spa 1998 and only because he blackmailed the team into ordering Ralf not to overtake (watch the documentary "Driving ambition" about Jordans 1998 season). I think we can safely say that one certainly isn't one of the greats if you can't even beat Ralf Schumacher. Yet he still was a deserving champion in 1996, even though by relative achievement Schumacher may have been the "better driver" that year. The better package was Williams/Hill.


I don't know what you're on about Alonso in Austin. It was clear to me from the way that car was handling that Felipe's car was much better throughout the weekend. Felipe might have looked better but his car looked better. I'm not sure what went wrong in Austin for Ferrari but it wasn't Alonso.

That's what I'm getting at. You say that Alonso's position is all due to Alonso and when Massa is better then it's all due to the car. Don't you think that is a bit respectless? Massa may have had a big huge slump since 2009, but that was due to many factors. The heartbreak of losing the title in the last lap of the last race could have broken the strongest man, then the horrific shunt in 2009 and a car that is most likely more geared towards Fernando's preference is not the sort of stuff to bring out the best in a driver. The fact that he came back from that to finding his mojo again this season is ample proof of Massa's skills. He has proven that with the right package he can just as well fight for championships. He beat a proven champion driver like Räikkönen by over 20 points that year and that was before points were handed out by the truckload. And wouldn't the fact that he beat Alonso, who was in the championship winning car that year, by 36 points mean that at that time Massa was the massively better driver that year? I think saying that Massa's drive in Austin was only because of the car is unfair. Fact is that Alonso didn't get the best out of the Ferrari for whatever reason but that doesn't mean he turns into a bad driver all of a sudden. He's still the same man, but he didn't drive too well that day.

[F1boat]

Possibly the greatest championship win ever. I can't ever remember anyone winning the WDC in the third best car.
In 1982 Keke Rosberg won the WDC while Williams finished 4th in the WCC behind Ferrari, McLaren and Renault. This year we have similar situation, although in my opinion Ferrari has a very decent race pace. However, I would not say that the championships of Alonso and Keke are the greatest - too few wins, and yes, the car helped this, but for me a championship with one or three wins can not be the greatest. My personal opinion of the greatest world championship win is probably the victories of Michael Schumacher in 1995 and 2001. Yes, he had a great car, but he made it look dominant and IMO it wasn't. The 1986 WDC win for Alain Prost is also amazing, because Williams were miles ahead of McLaren. In fact, you have started a great thread for discussion. Maybe we should open a topic in the History and Nostalgia forum for greatest championship win.

[F1boat]

What about a driver who has driven equally as well and as consistent all year but has been unfortunate with reliability and team blunders?

Or hasn't got a car as fast as the top three teams? You can make an argument about Kimi Raikkonen as well - personally I am very impressed with his consistency and great pace, despite that he wasn't in F1 for two full seasons. Nevertheless, I still think that Fernando and Sebastian are the best in the sport - I only said that I am happy that these two are fighting for the WDC, because I think so. Lewis has driven very well this season too - I can't deny that. But I still think that Seb and Fred are the better than him. That's why I am happy that they are fighting for the championship. Actually, I am quite torn about who I want to win. Yes, my heart is with Vettel, because I like him more and because - as childish as it sounds - it will annoy the haters and the deniers of his talent very much. On the other hand, Alonso has really been so smart this season and has fought so hard that you can't help but feel for him. Also, a championship victory for Ferrari is always pretty special. No other team creates the same emotion.

[keysersoze]

. . . even though by relative achievement Schumacher may have been the "better driver" that year. The better package was Williams/Hill.

It sure seems as if you contradict the hundreds of words you've written on this topic with this bit.

I won't say that Damon didn't deserve to win the title. However, the car was so quick and reliable that half the field could've won the WDC that year driving the Williams.

I think that's all that's being said here--that Alonso has been the better driver. I tend to agree. I also think Lewis has been better than Vettel, the former's poor decision at Valencia notwithstanding.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It sure seems as if you contradict the hundreds of words you've written on this topic with this bit.

Not neccessarily. I put the 'better driver' in quotes for a reason. If you take 'doing amazing things with an inferior or less competetive car' as a measure of a drivers achievement or 'derservingness' of the title then Schumacher was the 'most deserving of the title' from 1994 to 2004 straight, with Alonso being the 'more deserving' in 2005. I simply think there isn't such thing as a 'less deserving' champion. Anyone, who manages to have the most points at the end is 'deserving' it. It's like being pregnant. You can't be 'more pregnant' than someone else. Alonso was unbelievably consistent. Vettel was quicker, but lost a truckload of points to a wonky alternator twice and in at least two races because of the comedy tires and bad strategic calls by the team (leaving him out there until the tires fell off the cliff). So one had a slower car but was consistent - the other one wasn't, but offset it by more wins. Why should one method be better or 'more deserving' than the other?

[jas123f1]

The last and title desicion race is coming up. For me the hope is that Kimi holds on to third place, he has a 16 points lead over Lewis so he could do it. Seb will win the WDC if he not DFN.

That's what I'm looking and hoping for too ..

[jens]

Oh, so many comments that it makes my head spin if I try to deepen into all of it! :p :



I don't know what you're on about Alonso in Austin. It was clear to me from the way that car was handling that Felipe's car was much better throughout the weekend. Felipe might have looked better but his car looked better. I'm not sure what went wrong in Austin for Ferrari but it wasn't Alonso.

I disagree with this assessment. We should not excuse a driver's underperformance like that, unless there was a clear car problem. As you admit, Hamilton has been outraced by Button at least twice this season. So has Alonso - in Korea and USA. The reason, why Alonso finished ahead of Massa, was team orders. With these kind of arguments we would quickly face problems in discussions. Sure Alonso has been great this season, but we shouldn't hide all less-than-brilliant moments under the carpet either. After all, the consistency with which Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton have been beating their team-mates, is pretty impressive by itself anyway. And to beat a quality team-mate with over an 80% efficiency (in 4 out of 5 races) is an extremely good achievement. No need to try to make it look like 100%.

By the way, if we are looking at driver's mistakes, then in my view there is not much difference between Alonso's Japanese GP start-line incident and Vettel's accident with Karthikeyan in Malaysia. Both were 50-50 and both Sebastian and Fernando could have left more room than they did. So in my book both SV and FA have made one race-ending mistake this season. If we consider a "race incident" a mistake at all, that is.

---

And in the end, ugh, what did I want to say... Well, people are very passionate about it, but I have to say "deserving" doesn't mean anything in sports or competition. I know, in the past I have personally been very fond of endlessly discussing about who deserves what (who deserves titles, who deserves a seat in a top team, who deserves a drive in F1, etc). But I have had to learn from it and learn that in the end it doesn't matter anything at all. And it is subjective anyway. Best team-car-driver-luck (yeah, luck is also the word we can't forget either!) package wins. There is nothing undeserving about whoever wins it, unless they were flatout cheating.

If Vettel retires with an alternator failure in Brazil, it would be easy to claim that Alonso doesn't deserve the title, because he lucked into it. So as you see, "deserving" is a grey area and it can be defined in any way you like. It is a bit weird to try to convince yourself all season that Driver X has more "right" to something than the other. And form always fluctuates. "Deserving" Driver X can have a bad race or even bad patch of form basically any time, which blows the argument of deserving away. Better just watch and enjoy, what is happening.

[The Black Knight]

Oh, so many comments that it makes my head spin if I try to deepen into all of it! :p :



I disagree with this assessment. We should not excuse a driver's underperformance like that, unless there was a clear car problem. As you admit, Hamilton has been outraced by Button at least twice this season. So has Alonso - in Korea and USA. The reason, why Alonso finished ahead of Massa, was team orders. With these kind of arguments we would quickly face problems in discussions. Sure Alonso has been great this season, but we shouldn't hide all less-than-brilliant moments under the carpet either. After all, the consistency with which Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton have been beating their team-mates, is pretty impressive by itself anyway. And to beat a quality team-mate with over an 80% efficiency (in 4 out of 5 races) is an extremely good achievement. No need to try to make it look like 100%.

By the way, if we are looking at driver's mistakes, then in my view there is not much difference between Alonso's Japanese GP start-line incident and Vettel's accident with Karthikeyan in Malaysia. Both were 50-50 and both Sebastian and Fernando could have left more room than they did. So in my book both SV and FA have made one race-ending mistake this season. If we consider a "race incident" a mistake at all, that is.

---

And in the end, ugh, what did I want to say... Well, people are very passionate about it, but I have to say "deserving" doesn't mean anything in sports or competition. I know, in the past I have personally been very fond of endlessly discussing about who deserves what (who deserves titles, who deserves a seat in a top team, who deserves a drive in F1, etc). But I have had to learn from it and learn that in the end it doesn't matter anything at all. And it is subjective anyway. Best team-car-driver-luck (yeah, luck is also the word we can't forget either!) package wins. There is nothing undeserving about whoever wins it, unless they were flatout cheating.

If Vettel retires with an alternator failure in Brazil, it would be easy to claim that Alonso doesn't deserve the title, because he lucked into it. So as you see, "deserving" is a grey area and it can be defined in any way you like. It is a bit weird to try to convince yourself all season that Driver X has more "right" to something than the other. And form always fluctuates. "Deserving" Driver X can have a bad race or even bad patch of form basically any time, which blows the argument of deserving away. Better just watch and enjoy, what is happening.

Alonso hasn't had any self made race ending incident. Japan was not his fault, it was a racing incident at the start of the race and could have happened to anyone. Vettel simply cut across Narain like a muppet and then blamed everyone but himself as usual. It was his fault. Why he got a penalty for it, I would love to know.

Yes, opinions are subjective. Your post implies to me you don't want us discussing them. If that's the case then I'm not sure why you're a moderator or even a member of the forum. Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to it. My opinion, and many, many people's opinion is that Alonso deserves the championship this year, no matter what Seb does this Sunday because he has been incredible this year - Seb has been brilliant when the car has been brilliant and this is what he is good at. He is not good in all situations - Alonso has been this year. Finally, were Seb to have an alternator failure on Sunday, then given Seb's luck in Abu Dhabi I wouldn't begrudge Alonso it.

[jens]

I find it intriguing that you consider Vettel lucky in Abu Dhabi, considering he was DQ'd in qualifying through no fault of his own and lost a possible win. This is exactly, where perception comes into play.

Alonso may deserve the title. Doesn't mean though that if someone else happens to win it, doesn't deserve it.

Nothing wrong with having an opinion. But it is always good to keep an open-minded attitude, be flexible and avoid frustration with subjective things out of our control. As you mentioned - "no matter what Seb does this Sunday". So a point of view has already been made clear, regardless of what is going to happen.

[The Black Knight]

I find it intriguing that you can't see the blatantly obvious that he was lucky by having two safety cars play into his hand. I never said Vettel didn't deserve the title, I said Alonso deserved it the most.

[jarrambide]

I find it intriguing that you can't see the blatantly obvious that he was lucky by having two safety cars play into his hand. I never said Vettel didn't deserve the title, I said Alonso deserved it the most.

Is there any deserve-o-meter I should know about?, How can anyone measure who deserves something the most?, Does it really matter if someone deserves it?, Just like in Highlander, there can only be one.

[jens]

I find it intriguing that you can't see the blatantly obvious that he was lucky by having two safety cars play into his hand. I never said Vettel didn't deserve the title, I said Alonso deserved it the most.

Race result is based on the work over a full weekend. And grid position has a large role in determining the final race result.

So turning the argument around I'd say Alonso was lucky that Vettel was disqualified in Abu Dhabi. Otherwise the title race would already be over. With P1 for SV in ABD and P3 for FA the current gap would be 26 points.

[The Black Knight]

Race result is based on the work over a full weekend. And grid position has a large role in determining the final race result.

I'd say Alonso was lucky that Vettel was disqualified in Abu Dhabi. Otherwise the title race would already be over. With P1 for SV in ABD and P3 for FA the current gap would be 26 points.

Yup, but Vettel qualified third, and finished third and the two safety car periods negated that disadvantage so it was pretty much evens by the end. Vettel only lost two or three points. I think Kimi would have own anyway. Alonso lost a pretty much certain 18 points in Japan. So actually, by that calculation Alonso would be leading right now. Aren't opinions so subjective as you say :D

[jens]

Yup, but Vettel qualified third, and finished third and the two safety car periods negated that disadvantage so it was pretty much evens by the end. Vettel only lost two or three points. I think Kimi would have own anyway. Alonso lost a pretty much certain 18 points in Japan. So actually, by that calculation Alonso would be leading right now. Aren't opinions so subjective as you say :D

Yes! :D Let's see, what kind of opinions will we develop after Interlagos! :)

[kfzmeister]

Who deserves it more?

Analysis: Who deserves the championship most?* (http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/06943)

[gloomyDAY]

This whole "driver X is more deserving of the WDC because of Y" malarky is getting old. The man who is fastest on Sunday and wins the championship is the most deserving, period. I can't believe how people have such short memories and forgot that Red Bull were off-pace at the start of this season, so I think that Vettel is a deserving champion. Obviously, Alonso hauling around a dog counts for a lot too, but if he wins the WDC, then that's great too!

I'm a Vettel fan (disclosure), so I obviously want him to win the WDC on Sunday and have another 3-time champion. I would be disappointed if Alonso won the championship because I dislike Ferrari, but I'd still be content.

[F1boat]

This whole "driver X is more deserving of the WDC because of Y" malarky is getting old. The man who is fastest on Sunday and wins the championship is the most deserving, period.
Yes, I think so as well.

[The Black Knight]

Who deserves it more?

Analysis: Who deserves the championship most?* (http://www.thef1times.com/news/display/06943)

Excellent article and pretty much sums up the way I feel. I agree with everything in it barring their Japan assessment of Alonso which I just consider to be a racing incident and I also feel Malaysia was Vettel's fault not Narain's. Can't agree on everything though I guess :p

[F1boat]

The article is excellent, thanks for the link.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Excellent article and pretty much sums up the way I feel. I agree with everything in it barring their Japan assessment of Alonso which I just consider to be a racing incident and I also feel Malaysia was Vettel's fault not Narain's. Can't agree on everything though I guess :p

You're clutching at straws man. :D The indian idiot was punsihed for Malaysia, so in the eyes of the people who matter he was guilty. Anyway since there isn't a deserve-o-meter as someone said. May the one with the most points win. Whoever gets it, we'll have a worthy champion

[The Black Knight]

You're clutching at straws man. :D The indian idiot was punsihed for Malaysia, so in the eyes of the people who matter he was guilty. Anyway since there isn't a deserve-o-meter as someone said. May the one with the most points win. Whoever gets it, we'll have a worthy champion

That appears to be the consensus of most Vettel fans alright, probably because deep down they know Alonso deserves it more :D


The Indian being punished was on the same level of Hamilton in Belgium. No clutching at straws, it's obvious from the video how much of a donkey Vettel was there.

[keysersoze]

Potential conflict of interest:

Say the rain leads to higher attrition, and late in the race Charles Pic is lying 12th, with a Caterham behind him.

Does he wreck for the first and only time this year, elevating Caterham to 12th, thus allowing Pic's 2013 team to collect an extra 10 million or so bucks?

[Knock-on]

Well, the weather is changing rapidly. Temp dropping and feels like we will get rain

[pino]

Grosjean out of Q2 due to an incident with a HRT...why I am not surprised :p :

[pino]

Vettel on top...why I am not surprised :s

[truefan72]

I understand the fIA rules but calling the williams in with 5 minutes to go in Q2 for a weigh is ridiculous, and replays show that, although a red light, the guy stretched his hand out fairly late.
I think it is a stupid thing they did. usually they call in the car after the session not with 5 minutes to go in the session in changing conditions.
In this case I completely understand maldonado not even looking at that guy and concentrating on his pit entry

[truefan72]

Di Resta as usual being outqualified by Hulkenberg.

[pino]

Lewis faster now !

[gloomyDAY]

Well, why couldn't McLaren qualify like today and race like in Austin, TX all season?

[truefan72]

hmm what should ferrari do
gearbox change massa or leave him in there to crash into vettel
lol

[kfzmeister]

Bring out the side cutters! :D

[AndyL]

I was surprised at how late the red light came on for Maldonado at the weighbridge... he would have had less than 2 seconds to see it, react and slow down enough to turn in.

[pino]

Truefan, You should be happy for Lewis pole.. not worried about Ferrari ;)

[truefan72]

on a serious note:
1. Happy for Hamilton
2. Button finally having a good qualy, greeted hamilton with exuberance in the weigh station in a "I'm glad I'm not going up against you head to head anymore" embrace
3. really surprised at Alonso and Vettel. Vettel in particular looks nervous, and now will be starting in top 10 traffic. So we will see how he fairs against that competition.
3. equally surprised at Massa outpacing alonso again. This leaves the team in a quandary, and if there was ever a time for a #2 to do his thing it will be Massa, out-driving Vettel at the start and giving his teammate a fighting chance.
4. I fear maldonado might get a grid penalty. I hope it is only a reprimand...which again might be his third, and a grid penalty, moving Hulkenberg and Alonso up spot.
5. Kimi might have his car set up for the wet, and might be dangerous and a spoiler for the race. He is also fighting for 3rd spot with Hamilton so it might get interesting.

Thwe race is set up very intriguingly for a dynamite race.
Can't wait!

[truefan72]

Truefan, You should be happy for Lewis pole.. not worried about Ferrari ;)

I am happy for Hamilton,
but it is also an exciting finish to the season so it all intrigues me
Its a real situation over at Ferrari, but they just said there will be no gearbox change for Massa
should be interesting

[truefan72]

I was surprised at how late the red light came on for Maldonado at the weighbridge... he would have had less than 2 seconds to see it, react and slow down enough to turn in.

agreed
:up:

[truefan72]

Well, why couldn't McLaren qualify like today and race like in Austin, TX all season?

one can only wonder

[jens]

Well, the championship finale has arrived. I have been watching F1 long enough to feel that it is over only when it is over. In 2007 Hamilton had a 7-point lead over Räikkönen and also outqualified the Finn on Saturday. He still lost the title...

Interesting session. Neither Vettel nor Alonso managed anything special, but the outcome is more costly for Alonso. Actually when I think about it, the situation is pretty good for Vettel. He doesn't need to win, just make sure Alonso doesn't escape from his sights. I think it would be a decent strategy for tomorrow to drive just fast (or slow) enough to keep Alonso behind, defend position and hold him up. In short - instead of caring about his own race result, try to keep FA as far away from podium as possible, so that he would be safe even if he suffers a car failure sometime during the race. Because this is basically the only thing (in addition to a freak accident) that can really stop Vettel from winning the WDC.

Hülkenberg finishes the season on a strong note. Very impressed with him. Massa as well - I am almost prepared to forgive the contract extension and say that it is fine that he keeps occupying that Ferrari seat. But then he should drive like that consistently in 2013!

[AndyL]

The problem for Maldonado is even if he just gets a reprimand for missing the weighbridge, he's on 2 reprimands already so a grid drop looks pretty certain. So a 7th place start for Alonso.

[The Black Knight]

So it could be a 6th place for Alonso with Maldonado's impending penalty and Massa's gearbox problem :D

[The Black Knight]

Great pole lap from Lewis. One the limit throughout and I was impressed that Jenson was so close to him as well. Superb job by Webber. Vettel, not sure what happened, he botched his first lap and seemed tentative for his second, clearly not the best job he could have done. Hamilton, Button, Webber and Massa were drivers of qualifying for me. Good to see Felipe come back to life a little the last two races. I hope he regains the mojo he lost 3 years ago. I can't wait for the race :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

LOL. There is the Maldonado drop. I really wonder why Alonso bothers with qualifying at all. :D That's like the fifth or sixth time this year he's promoted up the grid after qualifying. With Vettel and Alonso so close on the grid it could be an interesting battle tomorrow. :D

[Knock-on]

Well, the weather is changing rapidly. Temp dropping and feels like we will get rain

:confused: I posted this well before quali. Wonder why it didn't post but with the Comms out here I'm not surprised.

Anyway, excellent job from the McLaren boys. We had a slight damp track and it was tricky out there so just the sort of conditions you expect Lewis and Jenson to excel in. It was pretty bone dry on the racing line in Q3 but a touch slippy just off it.

Groanjean. Why a muppet. You can't expect slower cars to jump off the racing line just because you want to stuff a silly move up the inside when there's no room. The tail must be allowed to wag when they're trying for the best position they can in Quali. Lets see how he does in the race but he's put an early marker down for the Donkey already.

Anyway, I'm off to a party so may get some fun pics for tomorrow. I'll post anything not to controversial ;)

[Zico]

Very interesting qualifying session, great performances by both McLarens... thats more like it Jenson!

Interesting comments from Alonso...


From BBC - "However, there is a suspicion that the Spaniard compromised his ultimate dry-weather pace to set up his car to favour the wet conditions that are expected in the race.

His engineer Andrea Stella said over the team radio: "We know the situation is good for tomorrow."

Asked if he had made any changes to the set-up in anticipation of a wet race, Alonso said: "No not really. I think in these days the wet or dry set-up is dominated by the aerodynamics, so you can change the level of downforce.

"But here you run with the maximum downforce already in the dry so in the wet it is no big change. I don't think anyone gambled today hoping for tomorrow rain or anything like that and [it was the] same for us."

BBC Sport - Brazilian GP: Lewis Hamilton on pole ahead of Jenson Button (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20478359)


Is this really a max downforce track in the dry?


So what do Ferrari do this time? Change Massas gearbox?... or stick with it and hope that being on the clean side of the track Fellipe makes better start and has an aggressive go at Vettel into the first corner?
Some of the ridiculous comments below the article suggesting that Massa may sacrifice his race to intentionally take Vettel out... heck that would be ridiculous even if Ferrari weren't fighting for 2nd place in the constructors championship!


Im hoping for a nailbiter tomorow right to the very end. Sebastian you have had a great season and driven very well indeed, but I cant help feeling that Fernando maybe deserves it just a little more...

[N4D13]

I haven't watched qualifying, but seeing as though there were 3 tenths between Massa and Alonso, I'm inclined to believe there was a set-up difference between their cars which held Alonso up in quali, which might be a lot of a gamble, but Alo needs a miracle to win the championship if it's a dry race, whereas we all know how wet races are.

Then again, this might just be wishful thinking, as you can imagine which of the contenders I'm rooting for. :D

[dj_bytedisaster]

De la Rosa ? :D

[djparky]

Alonso really needs a wet race or at least a mixed up wet-dry race- otherwise he simply hasn't got the pace

[dj_bytedisaster]

Massa starts to become a bit of a miracle. He started the season in abysmal form and from mid-season he just got better and better to the point of having the upper hand for the second time in a row. I really hope that both RBR and Ferrari use 'only' normal team tactics. One or both being crashed out would ruin the finale to one of the best seasons I can remember since starting to watch F1 in the late 80s

[airshifter]

It's setting up to be a really interesting race. I personally don't think Pastors penalty was called for this time around, but with him moved back on the grid that's one less position for Fernando to gain.

Some real spoilers in the field, and no doubt they will affect the race outcome. Both Alonso and Vettel seem a bit cautious, but I expect that to fly out the window for the race... at least for Alonso. Fernando often works very well under pressure, so it could be a matter of who cracks first. The fact that both WDC contenders are on the grid behind their respective team mates shows they are feeling the pressure. We know Felipe will submit to team orders, but post qually Webber claimed he would be running his own race. I think we all know that will only last until the order comes from the RB pits!

Outstanding job by Lewis today, who no doubt wants to make his last race with the team a victory. And I'm sure Jenson would like to see it a 1-2 finish. I'm sure Nico won't want to give up position easily or readily, but the Ferrari should have race pace on him, and Fernando has great racecraft.

Either way... I'm happy for whoever wins. IMO both drivers have given it a hard fight this year, and either is deserving of the WDC.

[wedge]

I was surprised at how late the red light came on for Maldonado at the weighbridge... he would have had less than 2 seconds to see it, react and slow down enough to turn in.

I haven't seen the full replay but the light was still green as he entered the pits and then the TV feed changed angles as he entered pit lane itself. There was an official standing next to the traffic light sticking his arm out.

Considering the sympathy for Maldonado across the interweb, Webbo reprimanded over the same offense last week at Austin, hopefully I would suspect FOTA or whoever would call on the FIA to tighten up this procedure.

[Tazio]

As for the race itself, I really hope it is a good one, Interlagos can be quite exciting. This is our last race for some time and personally I'm planning on enjoying it. I hope it is wet, however I also hope that they do not start behind the safety car :down:

[gloomyDAY]

As for the race itself, I really hope it is a good one, Interlagos can be quite exciting. This is our last race for some time and personally I'm planning on enjoying it. I hope it is wet, however I also hope that they do not start behind the safety car :down: *GROAN*

I fear the last race of the 2012 season will start behind Bernd.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I haven't seen the full replay but the light was still green as he entered the pits and then the TV feed changed angles as he entered pit lane itself. There was an official standing next to the traffic light sticking his arm out.
Considering the sympathy for Maldonado across the interweb, Webbo reprimanded over the same offense last week at Austin, hopefully I would suspect FOTA or whoever would call on the FIA to tighten up this procedure.

I would go as far as insinuating that it was deliberate. Calling in someone for a weight-check 5 minutes from the end of the session, where a quick return to the pits could still yield another last-minute run is rotten at best, as it robs the driver of a legitimate chance to improve.
I wouldn't put it past Ecclestone to rig a bogus penalty. Someone remember the 1997 finale, where Schumacher, Villeneuve and Frentzen 'miraculously' came up with exactly the same qualifying time at one point? I doubt that Ferrari would have gotten away with something like that dodgy 'penalty' in Austin if it happened in the first half of the season, either. If it comes to orchestrating an 'exciting finale', Ecclestone stops at nothing. But now that we have it, we might as well enjoy it :D

With Alonso promoted to 7th and his tendency to make up positions at the start, he could be well up at Vettels backside after the Senna-S. Vettel and Alonso dicing it wheel-to-wheel would be a fitting end to this season. The McLarens are too far up the road I think, unless RB have gambled on the setup. With Ferrari, I'm pretty sure that they have gone for race setup over qualifying performance. They've done that all year. That might also explain the difference between Massa and Alonso. With the task of making up a 13 point deficit, he'd have to be stark raving mad to set the car up for qualifying, while Massa might have gone for a token show for his home crowd.

[Knock-on]

Talk is that massa on a dry setup and Alonsoo and Seb on wet. Currently raining steady but not p*ssing down

[dj_bytedisaster]

Talk is that massa on a dry setup and Alonsoo and Seb on wet. Currently raining steady but not p*ssing down

That's what I'm thinking. Massa is of no use for Ferrari, if he starts behind Fernando. They have more options by getting him as far up the road as possible. If he gets past vettel, he can hold him up and if he doesn't he's still an easy position for Alonso to make up. More or less a win-win. Ferrari gets a tactical option and the home crowd is pleased as well. :D

[Tazio]

Talk is that massa on a dry setup and Alonsoo and Seb on wet. Currently raining steady but not p*ssing down

Yes, when Vettel only qualified 4th I had a pretty good idea he was on a wet setup. I also think that is a very smart move for his situation in the WDC. :bulb:

[F1boat]

I really hope that Massa won't crash into Vettel :(

[Knock-on]

I really hope that Massa won't crash into Vettel :(

Well, Massa isn't going to yield a mm he doesn't have to. It's more likely to be the other way round with Seb going for a spot and expecting people to jump out of his way.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I really hope that Massa won't crash into Vettel :(

I doubt that. He's driving in front of his home crowd. I doubt he would throw his home GP away. I accused Ferrari of being cynical because of the grid manipulation at Austin, but they are not *that* cynical. Domenicali is not Flavio Briattore.

[jens]

Well, Massa isn't going to yield a mm he doesn't have to. It's more likely to be the other way round with Seb going for a spot and expecting people to jump out of his way.

Vettel doesn't have to "go for" anything though. He can cruise around P4-P5 this race and unless Alonso has a shot at winning, not really bother about moving upwards.

However, I remember Brazilian GP from 2006. Fisichella managed to puncture Schumacher's tyre in the slightest of contact. This is what subsequently denied Ferrari the Constructors' Championship, because without the puncture Ferrari would have had a 1-2 with Renaults in 3rd and 6th, which means that Ferrari and Renault would have both collected 204 points, but Ferrari would have won by the virtue of more race wins. :p :

In retrospect I don't think anyone claims Fisichella did it deliberately, but this much is clear that he wasn't going to yield easily.

In any case, the accident from 2006 should remind Vettel that even if Massa isn't going to do anything deliberate, he should take extra caution in battles. And not only with Massa, but with basically anyone. A rival driver may not crash into Vettel, but a puncture in a very slight contact (like also Alonso in Japan this year) can have basically as bad consequences as a DNF in terms of race result.

[ShiftingGears]

I really hope that Massa won't crash into Vettel :(

If that does eventuate, I just don't believe that Massa would do it deliberately. Likewise with Webber/Alonso.

[F1boat]

I doubt that. He's driving in front of his home crowd. I doubt he would throw his home GP away. I accused Ferrari of being cynical because of the grid manipulation at Austin, but they are not *that* cynical. Domenicali is not Flavio Briattore.

We'll see.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If that does eventuate, I just don't believe that Massa would do it deliberately. Likewise with Webber/Alonso.

My guess is that Vettel will drive in a rather conservative manner. After all, the only way that Alonso can snatch the title is a win or a Vettel DNF. An Alonso win looks not impossible, but highly unlikely - the McLarens were too far ahead for that. With both 'Nando and Seb in seemingly race-optimized cars, the rain should be manageable, too. The real danger is that competitors might 'abuse' their caution, just the way Grosjean got the rough deal at starts with people relying on him to back off, because he was afraid to have another collision.
Interlagos is the perfect venue for the finale. When it rains heavily, the Senna-S becomes a lottery. Even proven rainmeisters like Schumacher helplessly aquaplaned into the scenery there in the past. I don't know to which extent Bern E. has 'helped matters' (Maldonado penalty anyone?), but we're set for a thriller, I think.

[truefan72]

Button keen to fight with Hamilton - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/button-keen-fight-hamilton-190605979.html)

now slow man button is talking of wanting to race hamilton
his main concern should be in securing a 1-2 for mclaren and overhauling ferrari for 2nd in the WCC, and not trying to prove some misguided point and potentially crashing into him, taking them both out.
What a way to show how inspired you are. how team mclaren you are, by coming right out and saying what he did in the last race of the year. with major WCC points and dollars at stake.
:down:

[dj_bytedisaster]

Button keen to fight with Hamilton - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/button-keen-fight-hamilton-190605979.html)

now slow man button is talking of wanting to race hamilton
his main concern should be in securing a 1-2 for mclaren and overhauling ferrari for 2nd in the WCC, and not trying to prove some misguided point and potentially crashing into him, taking them both out.
What a way to show how inspired you are. how team mclaren you are, by coming right out and saying what he did in the last race of the year. with major WCC points and dollars at stake.
:down:

Erm, drivers being allowed to fight each other has always been the McLaren way hasn't it? And you seem to suffer a short memory, because you call the same man 'slow man', who whacked your golden boy left to right last season. As I read the text he merely says he's not going to play Massa and stay behind Hamilton for no reason. That doesn't mean he'll pile into Hamiltons car. The last few races have shown that the top drivers, like Webber, Button, Hamilton, Alonso etc can go wheel-to-wheel without it ending in a shunt. Webber said something to the same effect - and I suppose you're much more content with that - he also won't accept being used as a tactical pawn. That's as it should be.
Both Button and Webber want to end the season with a strong showing and I think they're perfectly entitled to do som but both are also experienced and intelligent enough to know how far they can go. Button will not try any overly risky move on Hamilton and if the title fight went down to Vettel making up a single position, I'm sure Webber would yield.

[Ranger]

Button keen to fight with Hamilton - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/button-keen-fight-hamilton-190605979.html)

now slow man button is talking of wanting to race hamilton
his main concern should be in securing a 1-2 for mclaren and overhauling ferrari for 2nd in the WCC, and not trying to prove some misguided point and potentially crashing into him, taking them both out.
What a way to show how inspired you are. how team mclaren you are, by coming right out and saying what he did in the last race of the year. with major WCC points and dollars at stake.
:down:

"I will stay behind Lewis the entire race."

Is that what you would have preferred to hear?

F1 driver wants to win race... shock horror.

[Bagwan]

Button keen to fight with Hamilton - Yahoo! Eurosport UK (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/news/button-keen-fight-hamilton-190605979.html)

now slow man button is talking of wanting to race hamilton
his main concern should be in securing a 1-2 for mclaren and overhauling ferrari for 2nd in the WCC, and not trying to prove some misguided point and potentially crashing into him, taking them both out.
What a way to show how inspired you are. how team mclaren you are, by coming right out and saying what he did in the last race of the year. with major WCC points and dollars at stake.
:down:

Wow . Relax dude .
He wasn't saying he'd take him out .
He was just saying how nice it will be to not have the pressure , so they can have a good bit of dicing with each other .

They are both capable , you know .
And , they are much closer together this time .

I would think they are both looking forward to it .

Don't call down a racer for suggesting a race .

[F1boat]

"I will stay behind Lewis the entire race."

Is that what you would have preferred to hear?

F1 driver wants to win race... shock horror.

+1. Jenson is good enough to fight with Lewis without taking him out in the race and as neither is fighting for the WDC I can't see why Jenson should stay behind Lewis trying to attack. And BTW you can show some respect to the guy. He may not be as fast as Lewis and will likely lose the race tonight, but he is a Formula One World Champion and not a "slow guy".

[Alfa Fan]

Am I the only one tired of hearing about Senna for the umpteenth time? If he hadn't died at Imola, he'd be as divisive a figure as Schumacher, yet on his finale F1 weekend, we're hearing more eulogising about Senna, as if he were some kind of god.

[Ranger]

Apparently it is still dry. Does anyone with coverage have any updates?

[Zico]

Am I the only one tired of hearing about Senna for the umpteenth time? If he hadn't died at Imola, he'd be as divisive a figure as Schumacher, yet on his finale F1 weekend, we're hearing more eulogising about Senna, as if he were some kind of god.

Despite his character flaws Imo Senna was a driving 'god'.
Mike has been focused on to some extent prior to the Senna tribute and Im sure will have even more recognition over the course of the programe.

[pino]

30 min to go and no rain at the moment, so Alonso needs more than a miracle...

[Storm]

I would think they are both looking forward to it .

Don't call down a racer for suggesting a race .

As much as I agree that this is a non story, calling Button a racer did make me chuckle.

[F1boat]

Before the final race of the season I want to thank to all fans here for the interesting and very often heated discussions. The truth is that we are privileged to witness a grid of such quality and interesting drivers and the great duel between two of the greatest talents this sport has seen - Sebastian and Fernando. This is why we love Formula One I guess - for me the best sport ever :)

[AndyL]

Matthew - just a little drizzle in the air at the moment. On Brundle's grid walk, just as he was talking about how the threat of rain had receded, the camera turned skyward and you could see spots of rain appear on the lens! Sam Michael reckons their forecast says any rain will be light.

[Storm]

^little bit of rain!

[F1boat]

30 min to go and no rain at the moment, so Alonso needs more than a miracle...

The rain has started just in time for your boy... ;)

[Rollo]

Lap 1 and Alonso got his miracle. 100% Vettel's fault. He turned in on Senna.

[dj_bytedisaster]

It's not over yet. He's back in the points already. Massa's blocking was perhaps a tad over the top, I think. He bunched up, what, 8 cars behind him? :D

[pino]

Safety car in....

[F1boat]

great race, but Seb's car is damaged. Whoever wins, he would deserve it, this race is literally hellish for the champ contenders.

[pino]

A great finale of a great season ! :up:

[truefan72]

so vettel passes kobayashi under yellow, where is the investigation?
button making me eat crow, relax bagwan :(
and of course mclaren screwing hamilton pitstop
but the safetycar has somewhat equalized things again
but I do think that Vettel should get a stop and go or 10 second penalty
overtaking under a yellow is a big no no!

[truefan72]

oh, and super job from Hulkenberg, who should have gotten the mclaren seat and not perez

[F1boat]

Hulkenberg is totally amazing. I hope that he will win this. I watched him in A1GP and noticed that he is a great talent. On the other hand Seb looks exhausted mentally - if he survives this with a championship Fortuna would have smiled to him big time.
About the yellow pass, I didn't see, but I hope for no appeals after a race. The 2007 farce was enough.

[F1boat]

For once I hope that both McLarens will finish the race in this positions, as well as Paul...

[truefan72]

hulkenberg!!!

hamilton takes the lead, gutted for hulkenberg, but hopefully he can get his mojo back, so far a superb race

[truefan72]

damn hulkenberg is mighty fast!

[truefan72]

and just like that my praise goes out of the window
hulkenberg slides into hamilton and ruins both of their races
he would have taken hamilton on the long drs straight so why the nedd to dive down there in tricky conditions with backmarkers???

just so frustrating!
oh well on to 2013

such an unnecessary move :(

[F1boat]

Alonso is champion IMO and Red Bull and Seb have only themselves to blame...

[truefan72]

drive thru for Hulkenberg
err....where is the drive thru forvettel passing kobayashi under yellows?
if they don;t call him in, then there will be a protest at the end of the race by ferrari and we will be in court until the start of the next season

[BDunnell]

Quite an unsatisfactory set of circumstances, really, in which to have a title decider. Bit too much of a weather lottery, as exciting as it is.

[F1boat]

Quite an unsatisfactory set of circumstances, really, in which to have a title decider. Bit too much of a weather lottery, as exciting as it is.

But it is a thriller. More like horror, actually.

[pino]

Game over !

[Storm]

Phew...exciting but a bit of an anti-climax.

[F1boat]

I feel like crying now... this is the most suffered WDC win ever. Congrats to Seb and Freddy for being the toughest possible rival.

[truefan72]

very disappointing indeed
once again hamilton lDNF from the lead no fault of his own
Vettel causes the first lap incident, and no penalty, if this was grosjean, they would have given him a stop and go for causing a first lap calamity that took out several drivers
Vettel passes kobayashi on yellows, no penalty no investigation
I will have to see how he went from p21 to p8 in under 2 laps
diresta crashes, so safety car finish
button gets an undeserved victory...as usual
petrov saves caterham...and loses his seat to probably kovaleinen

I'll save my congrats until official results

[F1boat]

Michael seems happy that Vettel is champion.

[truefan72]

Michael seems happy that Vettel is champion.

should be, since he gifted him the pass
but massa did the same for alonso, i suppose

[F1boat]

should be, since he gifted him the pass
but massa did the same for alonso, i suppose

It is known that Michael likes Seb and Alonso... not so much.

[truefan72]

what's felipe crying about?

[Dave B]

Wow, just wow. I've aged about 15 years watching that race. It's a shame it ended under the SC but other than that what a thrilling race. Congratulations to Button for a sublime win in tricky conditions, and Vettel for knowing the difference between yellow flags and the slippery surface ones at speed - it seems to have confused a lot of people not least Martin Brundle!

[The Black Knight]

very disappointing indeed
once again hamilton lDNF from the lead no fault of his own
Vettel causes the first lap incident, and no penalty, if this was grosjean, they would have given him a stop and go for causing a first lap calamity that took out several drivers
Vettel passes kobayashi on yellows, no penalty no investigation
I will have to see how he went from p21 to p8 in under 2 laps
diresta crashes, so safety car finish
button gets an undeserved victory...as usual
petrov saves caterham...and loses his seat to probably kovaleinen

I'll save my congrats until official results

The most disappointing thing about this is the steward's bottling it. Alonso is the true champion. Vettel should not be champion. Steward's - donkeys of the race.

I've just heard on the grapevine that Ferrari are gone off to the steward's so it's not over yet.

[AndyL]

I'm coming round to Bernie's sprinkler idea.

[SGWilko]

The most disappointing thing about this is the steward's bottling it. Alonso is the true champion. Vettel should not be champion. Steward's - donkeys of the race.

I've just heard on the grapevine that Ferrari are gone off to the steward's so it's not over yet.

Well, the evidence is a little stacked against Seb, isn't it?

A bit dissapointed at Hulkenberg - understand why he did it though.

[F1boat]

The most disappointing thing about this is the steward's bottling it. Alonso is the true champion. Vettel should not be champion. Steward's - donkeys of the race.

I've just heard on the grapevine that Ferrari are gone off to the steward's so it's not over yet.
So it is true class to want to win the WDC on the table ;)

[ArrowsFA1]

Well done to Sebastian Vettel for becoming a 3-time champion but, after a remarkable race, I have to say that Alonso's was the drive of a champion.

[truefan72]

The most disappointing thing about this is the steward's bottling it. Alonso is the true champion. Vettel should not be champion. Steward's - donkeys of the race.

I've just heard on the grapevine that Ferrari are gone off to the steward's so it's not over yet.

I too think that Alonso should have been crowned the champion
with the first lap incident and the yellow flag pass on kobayashi, both receiving nothing from the stewards, it seems quite obvious that for some reason the stewards favored vettel
and if you consider that Grosjean got a penalty for sliding into hamilton in the wet, but vettel got nothing for deliberately cutting into senna on the first lap that took out senna and perez, it is baffeling to me.
As I said, I'll save my congrats until official word

[The Black Knight]

Well, the evidence is a little stacked against Seb, isn't it?

A bit dissapointed at Hulkenberg - understand why he did it though.

He deserved a penalty. If the steward's missed it, it's only right they add it on post race.

[Big Ben]

I feel like throwing up

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[Dave B]

One more time: the lights were the red/yellow slippery surface warnings. Some of you need better TVs or a trip to Specsavers! :p

[The Black Knight]

I too think that Alonso should have been crowned the champion
with the first lap incident and the yellow flag pass on kobayashi, both receiving nothing from the stewards, it seems quite obvious that for some reason the stewards favored vettel
and if you consider that Grosjean got a penalty for sliding into hamilton in the wet, but vettel got nothing for deliberately cutting into senna on the first lap that took out senna and perez, it is baffeling to me.
As I said, I'll save my congrats until official word

I'd forgive them for not penalizing Vettel at teh start of the race as it's start of the race and it's hard to see what's going on. I saw that as a racing incident but the yellow flag just boggles my mind how the steward's missed that.

[truefan72]

So it is true class to want to win the WDC on the table ;)

well it is not about acting classy or not if there is a clear video evidence of a wrong
it should be rightfully investigated

[Dave B]

Even Brundle now agrees about the "yellow flag" incident:


MBrundleF1 (https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=MBrundleF1) To answer many it appears the warning lights were red and yellow for slippery track not yellow so nothing to answer for Vettel.
2 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/MBrundleF1/status/272763281075228672) · reply (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=272763281075228672) · retweet (https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=272763281075228672) · favorite (https://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=272763281075228672)

[The Black Knight]

One more time: the lights were the red/yellow slippery surface warnings. Some of you need better TVs or a trip to Specsavers! :p

It looked like a straight forward yellow to me from my HD TV but if that was the case then he is deserved champion.

[SGWilko]

One more time: the lights were the red/yellow slippery surface warnings. Some of you need better TVs or a trip to Specsavers! :p

Bugger, that is a shame! ;)

[steveaki13]

very disappointing indeed
once again hamilton lDNF from the lead no fault of his own
Vettel causes the first lap incident, and no penalty, if this was grosjean, they would have given him a stop and go for causing a first lap calamity that took out several drivers
Vettel passes kobayashi on yellows, no penalty no investigation
I will have to see how he went from p21 to p8 in under 2 laps
diresta crashes, so safety car finish
button gets an undeserved victory...as usual
petrov saves caterham...and loses his seat to probably kovaleinen

I'll save my congrats until official results


Pretty terrible all round then.

[truefan72]

One more time: the lights were the red/yellow slippery surface warnings. Some of you need better TVs or a trip to Specsavers! :p

are you sure?
because it looked like a flashing yellow to me, did not see reds in the replay
but if it was, I'll take that part of my argument back, but the start incident still is suspect

[Tazio]

Congrats to Seb on a great season, and a great championship.

[The Black Knight]

I too think that Alonso should have been crowned the champion
with the first lap incident and the yellow flag pass on kobayashi, both receiving nothing from the stewards, it seems quite obvious that for some reason the stewards favored vettel
and if you consider that Grosjean got a penalty for sliding into hamilton in the wet, but vettel got nothing for deliberately cutting into senna on the first lap that took out senna and perez, it is baffeling to me.
As I said, I'll save my congrats until official word

I disagree with that about Button. He annihilated Hamilton at the start and lost a big lead back to Lewis under safety car. I feel Button deserved the win.

[F1boat]

Even Brundle now agrees about the "yellow flag" incident:

Good news, I hope that this will be the end of this. I don't want to see a repeat of the 2007 nauseating post-championship saga.

[The Black Knight]

Pat Fry said it was an oil flag not a yellow flag so if he says that it probably is as well and that's fair enough if it was the case.

[Dave B]

Ferrari's spokesman just told Sky it was red/yellow and they don't have any issue with it.

Edit: Pat Fry, can't believe I didn't recognise him! I need a trip to Specsavers... :p

[F1boat]

So I guess that I can celebrate now, right?

[truefan72]

I disagree with that about Button. He annihilated Hamilton at the start and lost a big lead back to Lewis under safety car. I feel Button deserved the win.

lol what?
he managed to pass hamilton under tricky conditions, 2 laps later hsmilton pitted only 2 seconds behind, Button and Hulkenberg gambled and stayed out
then the safety car, button on fresher rubber than hamilton, hamilton still passes him, and thebn starts pulling away, same tricky condtions came up ,but this time around ( again on older tyres) hamilton stretches the lead, both he and hulkenberg were pulling away from button, got caught up in traffic and hulkenberg took him out and gifted the p1 to button
at no point did button annihilate Hamilton. keep it real :|

[Bagwan]

I got the feeling that Sebastian's win wasn't the most popular in the pitlane .

Here , we saw Button , Alonso , and Massa talk about thier races , and completely ignore the world champion .
We lost the telecast as soon as Nelson started into "gibberish" with Felipe , with Button waving his arms about wanting to talk , so , he might have spoken about the champ then , but it was a little weird to hear nothing about him .

Well , Michael seemed pretty happy about it .
That made me wonder about how the gift would have been looked upon , had it been the difference between the win and the loss . It nearly was .

[jens]

Wow-wow, what a race!!! During the whole race it reminded me so much 2008 and the ongoing drama, with close points battle, weather and track position. Vettel had two serious setbacks - first lap collision and later an unnecessary extra pitstop right before the rain.

Sebastian Vettel - triple Formula One World Champion at the age of 25. :bounce: :hot: Whatever anyone thinks of him, a sensational achievement!!!

And what else? A great race by the man of the future, Nico Hülkenberg. Shame that he ruined a potential shot at the race win with a small mistake. Like Pérez made a mistake in Malaysia, while battling for the lead. A pity, but these things happen.

[The Black Knight]

Hamilton was about 40 seconds behind Button before the safety. I might be wrong, I was more concentrating on the Vettel and Alonso battle than what was going on out front. I'll be watching the race again so can give better opinion on the Hammy/Button battle then.

[truefan72]

just saw the replay of the vettel pass on kobayashi, did not see any flashing yellow/red, all I saw is a solid yellow light, and at one point a yellow flag
pat fry might want to watch his words

also looking at the first lap incident, and it is quite obvious that vettel cuts right into senna, in fact he cuts acrosss diresta as well

[ioan]

So I guess that I can celebrate now, right?

Go ahead man, you deserve it!

[F1boat]

Well , Michael seemed pretty happy about it .


Yes, it was beautiful when he congratulated Vettel.

[dj_bytedisaster]

are you sure?
because it looked like a flashing yellow to me, did not see reds in the replay
but if it was, I'll take that part of my argument back, but the start incident still is suspect

Senna said Vettel couldn't see him and he didn't see him until the contact as well. If the driver, who retires, labels it as a normal racing incident, you can be sure it was one. Looks like you need to look for a different excuse.
I think we got a fantastic race. Fernando never put a foot wrong and Vettel came back from an early incident being sublime in the wet in a dented car. If it would have stayed dry, I'm pretty sure he would have lost more positions. That car looked bad on slicks.

I found the penalty against Hülkenberg ridiculous. We've seen cars weaving and near spinning all day. The only difference was that there was another car beside him. It was not reckless driving. Kobayashi piling into scenery and other cars - *that* was reckless driving.

[dj_bytedisaster]

are you sure?
because it looked like a flashing yellow to me, did not see reds in the replay
but if it was, I'll take that part of my argument back, but the start incident still is suspect

Senna said Vettel couldn't see him and he didn't see him until the contact as well. If the driver, who retires, labels it as a normal racing incident, you can be sure it was one. Looks like you need to look for a different excuse.
I think we got a fantastic race. Fernando never put a foot wrong and Vettel came back from an early incident being sublime in the wet in a dented car. If it would have stayed dry, I'm pretty sure he would have lost more positions. That car looked bad on slicks.

I found the penalty against Hülkenberg ridiculous. We've seen cars weaving and near spinning all day. The only difference was that there was another car beside him. It was not reckless driving. Kobayashi piling into scenery and other cars - *that* was reckless driving.

[truefan72]

Hamilton was about 40 seconds behind Button before the safety. I might be wrong, I was more concentrating on the Vettel and Alonso battle than what was going on out front. I'll be watching the race again so can give better opinion on the Hammy/Button battle then.

40 seconds due to a slop 24 second pitstop and then the circuit drying and hamilton on dead inters
oh well, in the grand scheme of things, this is water under the bridge

[jarrambide]

Senna said Vettel couldn't see him and he didn't see him until the contact as well. If the driver, who retires, labels it as a normal racing incident, you can be sure it was one. Looks like you need to look for a different excuse.
I think we got a fantastic race. Fernando never put a foot wrong and Vettel came back from an early incident being sublime in the wet in a dented car. If it would have stayed dry, I'm pretty sure he would have lost more positions. That car looked bad on slicks.

I found the penalty against Hülkenberg ridiculous. We've seen cars weaving and near spinning all day. The only difference was that there was another car beside him. It was not reckless driving. Kobayashi piling into scenery and other cars - *that* was reckless driving.

The thing is that they were handing penaties for incidents like the Hulkenberg one all season long, I didn't like at least half of those penalties, but if you gave them before, you have to be consistent, they had to penalize Hulkenberg.

[AndyL]

Ferrari's spokesman just told Sky it was red/yellow and they don't have any issue with it.

Edit: Pat Fry, can't believe I didn't recognise him! I need a trip to Specsavers... :p

What are the trackside lights supposed to show for red/yellow flags? Just watched it again - the trackside lights were steady and looked yellow on my TV. There was also guy on the left hanging out the red-and-yellow flag.

They did pass a green shortly before. And the trackside lights went out completely slightly afterwards. So possibly yellow lights left on after yellow conditions had actually been lifted?

[The Black Knight]

just saw the replay of the vettel pass on kobayashi, did not see any flashing yellow/red, all I saw is a solid yellow light, and at one point a yellow flag
pat fry might want to watch his words


also looking at the first lap incident, and it is quite obvious that vettel cuts right into senna, in fact he cuts acrosss diresta as well


Now that I've seen Allen McNish's analysis of it, I think it is a really marginal call for the steward's. There was a green light in the last corner which says it's ok to race, then as Vettel was just overtaking Kobayashi there was a yellow so it's understandable that Vettel didn't see it. Then Kobayashi dived into the pits so even if Vettel wanted to give the place back he couldn't have. All in all, if I were the Steward's, I'd look at it as though Vettel probably didn't see the yellow flag, and realistically didn't gain anything out of it as Kobayashi went straight into the pits, so just leave it go. Seeing the circumstances leading up to it, I believe it was correct that Vettel did not receive a penalty. It was a yellow, no doubt about that, but it was a unique situation and if there had been no green just before it I'd say, yes, apply the penalty, but since there was, applying a penalty would be just plain wrong.

[Dave B]

From a very respected F1 journo:


MauriceHamilton (https://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=MauriceHamilton) SkySportsF1 show confusion over flags/lights. There was an oil flag plus a yellow, then green light. Then yellow light . #f1 (http://twitter.com/search?q=%23f1)
5 minutes ago (https://twitter.com/MauriceHamilton/status/272769175766855680) · reply (https://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=272769175766855680) · retweet (https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=272769175766855680) · favorite (https://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=272769175766855680)

[truefan72]

What are the trackside lights supposed to show for red/yellow flags? Just watched it again - the trackside lights were steady and looked yellow on my TV. There was also guy on the left hanging out the red-and-yellow flag.

They did pass a green shortly before. And the trackside lights went out completely slightly afterwards. So possibly yellow lights left on after yellow conditions had actually been lifted?

from what I understand the yellow/red flag is for that local area only,sometimes even that corner, not an entire sector like the yellow flags are, which indicate no overtaking, there was a green flag that came up briefly, but considering that all the remaining lights were solid yellow, and the fact that the pass was made well in voew and in the yellow flag area indicates some sort of issue, at the very least to be investigated

[The Black Knight]

Fair play to Alonso coming over to Vettel and congratulating him. Nice scene.

[Triumph]

Well done to Sebastian. I won't be in the least bit surprised if he wins his fourth world championship next year.

Well done to Jenson. Shame about Lewis, yet again. Very disappointing.

[truefan72]

Now that I've seen Allen McNish's analysis of it, I think it is a really marginal call for the steward's. There was a green light in the last corner which says it's ok to race, then as Vettel was just overtaking Kobayashi there was a yellow so it's understandable that Vettel didn't see it. Then Kobayashi dived into the pits so even if Vettel wanted to give the place back he couldn't have. All in all, if I were the Steward's, I'd look at it as though Vettel probably didn't see the yellow flag, and realistically didn't gain anything out of it as Kobayashi went straight into the pits, so just leave it go. Seeing the circumstances leading up to it, I believe it was correct that Vettel did not receive a penalty. It was a yellow, no doubt about that, but it was a unique situation and if there had been no green just before it I'd say, yes, apply the penalty, but since there was, applying a penalty would be just plain wrong.

here's the thing though, a driver not seeing it is not an excuse for making the pass.
if stewards took into account every time a driver did not "see something" (like a late flag to call him into the weigh area) then there would be no penalties handed out
Also if vettel saw the green flag, then he also probably had the wherewithal to see the subsequent yellow's and actually not make the pass, the fact that kobayashi went into the pits makes the situation worse for him not better, since he could have given the spot back, but now has no chance to and thus should get a drive thru or much worse, since passing under yellow conditions, is about one of the worst offenses you can do.
oh well, we will see what the outcome is, but as of right now, I'm having a hard time congratulating Vettel.

[dj_bytedisaster]

oh well, we will see what the outcome is, but as of right now, I'm having a hard time congratulating Vettel.

You'd have a hard time congratulating him if he had won the race with a 40 seconds margin. Your blatant fanboyism is nauseating. Your golden boy was caught up in a racing incident and you whine endlessly about it, lambasting Hülkenberg for an incident that at least 10 others experienced as well, with the only difference that there wasnt a car right next to them. You're the last one in here, who hasn't yet understood that it WERE NOT yellow flags/indications, but yellow-red ones. Don't you think within almost two hours someone would have noticed? And the stewards certainly didn't 'bottle it'.
Heck, you started bawling before the race already about Button not being willing to play second fiddle - guess what, the 'slow man' won. Deal with it.

[ioan]

oh well, we will see what the outcome is, but as of right now, I'm having a hard time congratulating Vettel.


You'd have a heard time congratulating him if he had won the race with a 40 seconds margin. Your blatant fanboyism is nauseating. Your golden boy was caught up in a racing incident and you whine endlessly about it, lambasting Hülkenberg for an incident that at least 10 others experienced as well, with the only difference that there wasnt a car right next to them. You're the last one in here, who hasn't yet understood that it WERE NOT yellow flags/indications, but yellow-red ones. Don't you think within almost two hours someone would have noticed? And the stewards certainly didn't 'bottle it'.
Heck, you started bawling before the race already about Button not being willing to play second fiddle - guess what, the 'slow man' won. Deal with it.

Exactly! Just what you would expect from a truefan(72)boy.

[The Black Knight]

here's the thing though, a driver not seeing it is not an excuse for making the pass.
if stewards took into account every time a driver did not "see something" (like a late flag to call him into the weigh area) then there would be no penalties handed out
Also if vettel saw the green flag, then he also probably had the wherewithal to see the subsequent yellow's and actually not make the pass, the fact that kobayashi went into the pits makes the situation worse for him not better, since he could have given the spot back, but now has no chance to and thus should get a drive thru or much worse, since passing under yellow conditions, is about one of the worst offenses you can do.
oh well, we will see what the outcome is, but as of right now, I'm having a hard time congratulating Vettel.

I think you've some rose-tinted goggles on there my man. Fair is fair and Vettel won it fairly. I would have preferred Alonso to win it as well but that's life.

[Tazio]

How many days untill the next race? :bounce: :dork:

[The Black Knight]

How many days untill the next race? :bounce: :dork:


112 until lights out in Albert park. It's not that long :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

How many days untill the next race? :bounce: :dork:

Too many :(

[steveaki13]

112 until lights out in Albert park. It's not that long :)

What can we talk about until then?....erm

[truefan72]

You'd have a heard time congratulating him if he had won the race with a 40 seconds margin. Your blatant fanboyism is nauseating. Your golden boy was caught up in a racing incident and you whine endlessly about it, lambasting Hülkenberg for an incident that at least 10 others experienced as well, with the only difference that there wasnt a car right next to them. You're the last one in here, who hasn't yet understood that it WERE NOT yellow flags/indications, but yellow-red ones. Don't you think within almost two hours someone would have noticed? And the stewards certainly didn't 'bottle it'.
Heck, you started bawling before the race already about Button not being willing to play second fiddle - guess what, the 'slow man' won. Deal with it.

its hard to take anything you say seriously since Vettel and for that fact any german driver can do no wrong
btw I did congratulate vettel in the appropriate thread, so go figure :\


Exactly! Just what you would expect from a truefan(72)boy.

making a return to the forum and back to your usual nonsense I see


I think you've some rose-tinted goggles on there my man. Fair is fair and Vettel won it fairly. I would have preferred Alonso to win it as well but that's life.
no rose colored goggles my friend, just calling it as I see it. I did congratulate vettel in the other thread though, and pointed out that afterall a WDC is won over an entire season.
I'm certainly not a ferrari fan and i have no dog in this fight. either of them getting a 3rd championship does nothing for me.
I was adamantly critical of the ferrari tactics in Austin, at which point the partisan likes of bystander, and born again vettel fanboy ioan, etc had no qualms with my pov
this race I'm critical about the vettel first lap incident and the suspect red/yellow pass. and all of a sudden I'm a ferrari fanboy lol
I also though that hulkenberg and kimi were donkey's of the race, so I guess I'm a hater of those two now right,
the same hulkenberg that I was heaping praise on, even as he was about to catch and pass Hamilton
the same Kimi who i praised endlessley for the Abu dhabi victory

I'm a hamilton fan and make no apologies for it, but the thing I can't stand is that if I'm critical of another driver, suddenly its an issue

ridiculous

[The Black Knight]

no rose colored goggles my friend, just calling it as I see it. I did congratulate vettel in the other thread though, and pointed out that afterall a WDC is won over an entire season.
I'm certainly not a ferrari fan and i have no dog in this fight. either of them getting a 3rd championship does nothing for me.
I was adamantly critical of the ferrari tactics in Austin, at which point the partisan likes of bystander, and born again vettel fanboy ioan, etc had no qualms with my pov
this race I'm critical about the vettel first lap incident and the suspect red/yellow pass. and all of a sudden I'm a ferrari fanboy lol
I also though that hulkenberg and kimi were donkey's of the race, so I guess I'm a hater of those two now right,
the same hulkenberg that I was heaping praise on, even as he was about to catch and pass Hamilton
the same Kimi who i praised endlessley for the Abu shabi victory

I'm a hamilton fan and make no apologies for it, but the thing I can't stand is that if I'm critical of another driver, suddenly its an issue

ridiculous

That's fair enough. I honestly thought you were coming on very strong against Vettel. I see where you are coming from regards the incident of Vettel and Kobayashi but given the lambasting the steward's have taken in recent times, what with their penalty of Narain in Malaysia this year and other incidents in the past such as Hammy in Belgium 08, to decide a championship on this with it being such a fine margin of whether it is right or wrong would be very harsh. Not alone that but Vettel is actually alongside Kobayashi as they reach the yellow light. I just honestly feel that in this case it's best off to leave sleeping dogs lie. But the Steward's have all the data and they can look at it. If Vettel gained an unfair advantage from that then, yes, he deserves a penalty. I honestly feel that I can't tell 100% from the TV camera angles if he did or not in this case, so I, reluctantly, have no choice but to trust the Steward's in this one.

[truefan72]

That's fair enough. I honestly thought you were coming on very strong against Vettel. I see where you are coming from regards the incident of Vettel and Kobayashi but given the lambasting the steward's have taken in recent times, what with their penalty of Narain in Malaysia this year and other incidents in the past such as Hammy in Belgium 08, to decide a championship on this with it being such a fine margin of whether it is right or wrong would be very harsh. Not alone that but Vettel is actually alongside Kobayashi as they reach the yellow light. I just honestly feel that in this case it's best off to leave sleeping dogs lie. But the Steward's have all the data and they can look at it. If Vettel gained an unfair advantage from that then, yes, he deserves a penalty. I honestly feel that I can't tell 100% from the TV camera angles if he did or not in this case, so I, reluctantly, have no choice but to trust the Steward's in this one.

indeed, and now the stewards are saying that it was a red/yellow flag situation
excellent post

[AndyL]

Some further info on the lights.

The regulations are in Appendix H of the FIA sporting code:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf
4.2 covers the lights.

The lights can replicate red, yellow, blue, green and white flags, and should flash at 3-4 Hz.

The light panels can also be used to form a visual representation of the red/yellow flag (4.2.4), if stipulated in the Supplementary Regulations of the event.

I wasn’t able to find the supplementary regulations for the Brazilian Grand Prix. But it seems clear that if the light wasn’t flashing (which it wasn’t), it couldn't have been a yellow flag.

[Bezza]

I am slightly frustrated really. What a epic, epic race and what a fantastic season. However, it just feels a bit wrong that Vettel has taken it over Alonso.

Fair play to Vettel and Red Bull for their 4-race winning streak which brought them back into contention. However, the little bit of extra luck Vettel has got (again, like in 2010) was showcased in Brazil.

He took two big hits by Bruno Senna, on the rear tyre, it was a racing accident and due to a nervy start from Vettel that he was in that position. However, Alonso took barely a touch from Raikkonen in Suzuka, and was left with a race-ending puncture.

For Vettel to then come out and have a pop at people trying to stop them winning "on and off track" spoilt things too. You've won, you are very fortunate, and you should be very thankful.

For me, Alonso should have been champion, but alas he isn't, so here's hoping 2013 is as exciting as 2012 but the right guy wins at the end of it.

[A FONDO]

I'm watching the race for second time and still havent realized how Justin climbed from last to sixth in 3-4 laps? What are all these cars and drivers for down there? And we say the competition is more equal now? Remember what was with Hamilton on the same track in 2007 and 2008.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Fair play to Vettel and Red Bull for their 4-race winning streak which brought them back into contention. However, the little bit of extra luck Vettel has got (again, like in 2010) was showcased in Brazil.

He took two big hits by Bruno Senna, on the rear tyre, it was a racing accident and due to a nervy start from Vettel that he was in that position. However, Alonso took barely a touch from Raikkonen in Suzuka, and was left with a race-ending puncture.

I can understand your frustration, but saying that Vettel had extra-luck yesterday is a bit of a stretch. When Kimi nudged Alonso, the sharp endplate of his front wing sliced 'nando's tire. Senna bumped his front wheel into Vettels side pod. You can't compare these completely different impacts.
If anything it was Alonso, who had massive luck in the last three races, especially in Interlagos. On race speed he was never in contention for anything more than 5th place. The two McMercs and the Hulk were miles faster. He got his first break when Vettel was bombed back. Then he finds himself in 4th due to being gifted the place by Massa, who was faster all weekend. Yet that didn't even suffice remotely, since anything worse than a podium would have meant that Vettel could DNF and still be champion. Button and Hulk were so far up the road (40+ seconds IIRC) that before the safety car he realistically wasn't in contention for a podium finish anymore, hence out of the title fight. Lo and behold - he bitches on the team radio about sending out the safety car and a minute later FIA complies, although a local yellow would have done the trick. But even that wouldn't have meant he had a shot at the title, since he didn't have the speed to challenge the McLarens and Hulk. Only when Hulk piled into Lewis, he inherited 3rd and later 2nd from Massa. Without almost all going in his favor Alonso would never have had a realistic chance to make up the 13 points deficit.


For Vettel to then come out and have a pop at people trying to stop them winning "on and off track" spoilt things too. You've won, you are very fortunate, and you should be very thankful.

For me, Alonso should have been champion, but alas he isn't, so here's hoping 2013 is as exciting as 2012 but the right guy wins at the end of it.

Actually, Lewis should have been champion, since he was quicker than both Alonso and Vettel, but his team lost it for him with rotten reliability and godawfull pitstops all year.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm watching the race for second time and still havent realized how Justin climbed from last to sixth in 3-4 laps? What are all these cars and drivers for down there? And we say the competition is more equal now? Remember what was with Hamilton on the same track in 2007 and 2008.

The track was already damp at the time and Vettel was the quickest by miles in those conditions. A lot of people had early problems, too (like Schumachers puncture). Massa blocking something like 8 cars in a bunch behind him helped, too as that kept cars in easy reach for Vettel, who lapped 3s faster than Massa in roadblock-mode.

[Javi_racing]

I also am very very frustrated... Because Vettel is a deserved winner yes, but is so so unfair that Alonso hasn't had any reward this season. It has done an unbelievable work, how has he fought , how he has driven with no making ANY single mistake

What more he has to do...? Is just my opinion, but I can't accept that Vettel has got more titles than him. Because that's the only important thing, Vettel will be the champion always while Fernando's season will be forgotten, it won't be so appreciated

Of course I don't say seb doesn't deserve it. The thing is that fernando deserve more than he has :)

Anyway, congratulations sebastian and Red Bull!

[dj_bytedisaster]

I also am very very frustrated... Because Vettel is a deserved winner yes, but is so so unfair that Alonso hasn't had any reward this season. It has done an unbelievable work, how has he fought , how he has driven with no making ANY single mistake

Why should Ferrari be awarded for building an uncompetitive car? Neither Fernando nor Vettel are to blame that Fernando came second. The blame lies squarely at the door of Ferrari's design department. The best driver in 1993 was Senna, yet Prost won, because he had the better car. In 1996 and 1997 Schumacher was the better driver by miles, yet Hill and Villeneuve won, because they had the better car.


What more he has to do...? Is just my opinion, but I can't accept that Vettel has got more titles than him. Because that's the only important thing, Vettel will be the champion always while Fernando's season will be forgotten, it won't be so appreciated

If you forget Alonso's 2012 season, you should have yourself checked out for signs of Alzheimers disease. I think Alonso has managed something that won't be forgotten in a hurry - being beaten by only 3 points even though having only the third best car.


Of course I don't say seb doesn't deserve it. The thing is that fernando deserve more than he has :)

Anyway, congratulations sebastian and Red Bull!

In an ideal world, neither would have won. The fastest car throughout most of the season was the McLaren, specifically the one with Lewis in it. Lewis had the speed and the overall best car, but the most unreliable team. Alonso had a substandard car, but the greatest speed and a very reliable team. Vettel had the overall 2nd best car (except for a stretch of 4 races, before the McLarens caught up again), a very reliable team and the speed to match. That's why he won the trophy that should have Lewis' name on it.

[jens]

Talking about luck.

In the last three races Vettel has had to come from the back twice through no fault of his own. So Alonso should be thankful that he even got that close in the points in the end. In addition Vettel had basically every possible problem in the final race - team-mate squeezing him badly, damaged car, radio communication problems (very critical in such weather, which probably contributed to the botched strategy call). Considering the circumstances I find it incredible that he even made it to the end.

Meanwhile things have been going extremely smoothly for Alonso in the last few races - team-mate moving over for him, guys retiring in front of him (Webber in USA, Hulk/Ham crash in Brazil), which have enabled him to get to podium positions to have any kind of shot at the title at all.

Yes, Vettel was lucky in one aspect. That the car damage he suffered at Interlagos wasn't enough for retirement. Actually it was a miracle considering the hits. It was absolutely on the limit in terms of fatal damage. BUT... considering the amount of unluck he had already suffered, one shouldn't complain about getting some luck in the way as well! Reminds me of Alonso at Spa in 2010. Considering how Barrichello flew into the back of his car, it was a miracle Alonso could carry on just fine.

[keysersoze]

Potential conflict of interest:

Say the rain leads to higher attrition, and late in the race Charles Pic is lying 12th, with a Caterham behind him.

Does he wreck for the first and only time this year, elevating Caterham to 12th, thus allowing Pic's 2013 team to collect an extra 10 million or so bucks?

Damn . . .

. . . I'm good. :s mokin:

[donKey jote]

Some further info on the lights.

The regulations are in Appendix H of the FIA sporting code:
http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/1653003624__Appendix_H_a.pdf
4.2 covers the lights.

The lights can replicate red, yellow, blue, green and white flags, and should flash at 3-4 Hz.

The light panels can also be used to form a visual representation of the red/yellow flag (4.2.4), if stipulated in the Supplementary Regulations of the event.

I wasn’t able to find the supplementary regulations for the Brazilian Grand Prix. But it seems clear that if the light wasn’t flashing (which it wasn’t), it couldn't have been a yellow flag.

Race stewards insist that Sebastian Vettel overtake was made under yellow-red flags | Sky Sports (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/12433/8282398/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)

it was clearly yellow (~5:45), but only by a nose and Koba pitted straight after... flashing or not, I think they were right to ignore it :)

[keysersoze]

I'm watching the race for second time and still havent realized how Justin climbed from last to sixth in 3-4 laps? What are all these cars and drivers for down there? And we say the competition is more equal now? Remember what was with Hamilton on the same track in 2007 and 2008.

Sebastian Vettel + Toro Rosso + rain = Monza win

[A FONDO]

http://hostthenpost.org/uploads/c98e2dc99064617b7908be863791290a.gif

[Triumph]

I had no idea about this flag/light controversy from watching the BBC broadcast! It appears that the controversy has nothing to do with what actually happened, rather that it was caused by various observers and commentators not knowing the regulations.

As I understand it, the non-flashing yellow light is equivalent to a red/yellow flag and not a yellow flag. Only a flashing yellow light is equivalent to a yellow flag. Therefore a non-flashing yellow does not mean you can't overtake. It means the surface is slippery and has no bearing upon yellow flag-related regulations.

So, on-track, it happened in this order:

1) Flashing yellow light, yellow flag and red/yellow flag. No overtaking allowed. No overtake took place. Vettel behind Kobayashi.

2) Flashing yellow light at next corner. No overtaking allowed. No overtake took place. Vettel still behind Kobayashi.

3) Flashing green light at next corner. Overtaking allowed. Vettel still behind Kobayashi, but Vettel is now allowed to overtake as the yellow flag section has now indicated as cleared by the flashing green light.

4) Non-flashing yellow light coming up the hill, under the bridge. Overtaking allowed. This non-flashing yellow light equals a red/yellow flag. Overtake now in progress, but Vettel is allowed to, so no problem.

5) At least three more non-flashing yellow lights after the overtaking move (and presumably others on all the way round the circuit), which equal red/yellow flags and not yellow flags, so therefore contributing nothing towards any question of overtaking under a yellow flag.

Furthermore, Vettel's cockpit warning light corresponded with the yellow flag section, then went out at the appropriate point where the flashing green light was at the side of the circuit. That is purely academic though as according to the facts as observed, no rules were contravened.

Conclusion: Vettel did nothing wrong. A lot of fuss has been caused by ill-informed observers and commentators who don't know the regulations, which was then seized upon by other ill-informed Alonso fans, grasping at straws as they sank slowly into their vat of sour grapes, hoping that Vettel could be deprived of his historical achievement.

To any disappointed Alonso fans, imagine how much more disappointed you would have been this year if you were a Hamilton fan! At least your season still had some hope until the end of the last race! And now Hamilton is going to Mercedes, so barring any miracles there will be at least one more season of disappointment!


:)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Conclusion: Vettel did nothing wrong. A lot of fuss has been caused by ill-informed observers and commentators who don't know the regulations, which was then seized upon by other ill-informed Alonso fans, grasping at straws as they sank slowly into their vat of sour grapes, hoping that Vettel could be deprived of his historical achievement.


Excellent analysis. Problem is that your argument is not doing much for those, who would like to "correct" the race result on the green table :D

[The Black Knight]

I had no idea about this flag/light controversy from watching the BBC broadcast! It appears that the controversy has nothing to do with what actually happened, rather that it was caused by various observers and commentators not knowing the regulations.

As I understand it, the non-flashing yellow light is equivalent to a red/yellow flag and not a yellow flag. Only a flashing yellow light is equivalent to a yellow flag. Therefore a non-flashing yellow does not mean you can't overtake. It means the surface is slippery and has no bearing upon yellow flag-related regulations.

So, on-track, it happened in this order:

1) Flashing yellow light, yellow flag and red/yellow flag. No overtaking allowed. No overtake took place. Vettel behind Kobayashi.

2) Flashing yellow light at next corner. No overtaking allowed. No overtake took place. Vettel still behind Kobayashi.

3) Flashing green light at next corner. Overtaking allowed. Vettel still behind Kobayashi, but Vettel is now allowed to overtake as the yellow flag section has now indicated as cleared by the flashing green light.

4) Non-flashing yellow light coming up the hill, under the bridge. Overtaking allowed. This non-flashing yellow light equals a red/yellow flag. Overtake now in progress, but Vettel is allowed to, so no problem.

5) At least three more non-flashing yellow lights after the overtaking move (and presumably others on all the way round the circuit), which equal red/yellow flags and not yellow flags, so therefore contributing nothing towards any question of overtaking under a yellow flag.

Furthermore, Vettel's cockpit warning light corresponded with the yellow flag section, then went out at the appropriate point where the flashing green light was at the side of the circuit. That is purely academic though as according to the facts as observed, no rules were contravened.

Conclusion: Vettel did nothing wrong. A lot of fuss has been caused by ill-informed observers and commentators who don't know the regulations, which was then seized upon by other ill-informed Alonso fans, grasping at straws as they sank slowly into their vat of sour grapes, hoping that Vettel could be deprived of his historical achievement.

To any disappointed Alonso fans, imagine how much more disappointed you would have been this year if you were a Hamilton fan! At least your season still had some hope until the end of the last race! And now Hamilton is going to Mercedes, so barring any miracles there will be at least one more season of disappointment!


:)


Yep, to be honest, I wasn't aware of this one and neither was Martin Brundle. I thought a yellow flag was a yellow flag. I didn't realize that it had to be flashing for it to be a yellow flag. This is fine though. I'd hate for a championship to be decided were the victor due a penalty and the Steward's bottled it because of the occasion. But I'm OK with whoever being champion as long as the rules were adhered in the same manner they were at every other race throughout the season.

[Triumph]

Yes, same here. In the absence of any mention of it on the BBC I had to look up the details to make sense of it all.

If Martin Brundle was still on the BBC I would have listened to whatever he said as he usually knows what's what. I did wonder what he said about it all over there on Sky though!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Although one has to wonder, who came up with the brilliant idea of assigning two different meanings to a yellow light. From the start of their careers, drivers are indoctrinated: Yellow -> foot off the loud pedal.

Isn't a non-flashing light perceived as stronger than a flashing one? No wonder people were confused by that one - and think of it, drivers are expected to make the distinction blasting by at 150 mph. Crazy really

[big_sw2000]

Although one has to wonder, who came up with the brilliant idea of assigning two different meanings to a yellow light. From the start of their careers, drivers are indoctrinated: Yellow -> foot off the loud pedal.

Isn't a non-flashing light perceived as stronger than a flashing one? No wonder people were confused by that one - and think of it, drivers are expected to make the distinction blasting by at 150 mph. Crazy really


Its was down to the drivers. As they said a flashing red and yellow light, looks to similar to a flashing yellow at high speed. And in damp condtions. So they all agreed on the solid yellow light, for slippery surface.

Steve

[Triumph]

According to someone else's comment on the Sky website, flashing red/yellow lights (that were presumably tried out) were hard to distinguish from just flashing yellow, which the drivers found awkward, so non-flashing yellow was adopted instead.

I don't know what was actually tried out - whether it was a flashing red/yellow striped panel (like the flag), or alternate flashing of red then yellow. I'm sure you can do both with those LED panels. I would have thought that alternate flashing red then yellow would be easy to distinguish from flashing yellow, so maybe they didn't try that option!

EDIT: Steve posted whilst I was writing, but yes, that's more or less what I read.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Ah, thanks for that info. :)

[AndyL]

I assumed a yellow light meant a yellow flag. It's hardly surprising that a lot of people where not aware what a solid yellow light meant, given that it's not even specified in the FIA regulations.

Triumph: did you see those lights during the live coverage, and if so how did you know what they meant?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yeah, definite communication fail, especially by the broadcasting outfits. A lot of people got their knickers in a twist, because they were convinced that he had blatantly broken the rules, when in reality it was an absolute non-issue. But then it's the FIA, we're talking about. Maybe they liked all the artificial hype. After all, nothing works better PR-wise than a bit of rampant conspiracy theory :D

[big_sw2000]

I assumed a yellow light meant a yellow flag. It's hardly surprising that a lot of people where not aware what a solid yellow light meant, given that it's not even specified in the FIA regulations.

Triumph: did you see those lights during the live coverage, and if so how did you know what they meant?
.
Im totally with you on that. Its only know that i learnt about solid and flashing yellow lights.

Steve

[SGWilko]

Damn . . .

. . . I'm good. :s mokin:

Hey Mick, yer ****ing good!

[Triumph]

I assumed a yellow light meant a yellow flag. It's hardly surprising that a lot of people where not aware what a solid yellow light meant, given that it's not even specified in the FIA regulations.

Triumph: did you see those lights during the live coverage, and if so how did you know what they meant?

No, I didn't have a clue. I was only prompted to look it all up after reading about the controversy on here. It didn't make sense at the time as there wasn't a mention of it on the BBC, nor on the news, or anywhere else I would have expected it to appear, if indeed a championship had been won unfairly. I just pieced it together from various snippets of information and from re-watching the video clip.

[Ranger]

Watch 10:00 into this video, Vettel passes a Toro Rosso under yellow flags.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFER0esusF0&feature=youtu.be

Discuss.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Did you see that the light was actually green, when he passes the Torro?

[Ranger]

Did you see that the light was actually green, when he passes the Torro?

I was under the impression that it is a yellow flag zone until the green flag zone. Otherwise drivers would overtake as soon as they saw a green flag anywhere on the track.

The argument there is that he completed the pass before the flag was green. Jean-Eric Vergne clearly let him through, but since there was nothing wrong with his car then it is still a valid pass.

No penalty will eventuate from it, but I would be interested to see if it had any merit.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Granted. What do the rules say exactly? And the next question is, why did nobody notice that on the day it happened? I would think Ferrari would have jumped at that like a pack of dogs on a three-legged cat?

What about the lights on the right side? There's one at 10:27, the colour of which looks a bit inconclusive. It could be yellow, white, green? Looks to me as if he starts his move after passing that one. If it was green the move would be legit.

[Bagwan]

Watch 10:00 into this video, Vettel passes a Toro Rosso under yellow flags.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFER0esusF0&feature=youtu.be

Discuss.

Well , holy cow !
That was a nice explanation , I must say of the other controversial moments , which weren't .

But that certainly did look like an infraction .

And , especially rich , seeing that it was a Torro Rosso putting up no defense as he made this illegal move .

I know some folks will moan at the idea of a controversial end to a great season , but I think this is great .
A good controversy sets us all up for a great post-season session of debate .

I was sad it was over , but maybe it's not !

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well , holy cow !
That was a nice explanation , I must say of the other controversial moments , which weren't .

But that certainly did look like an infraction .

And , especially rich , seeing that it was a Torro Rosso putting up no defense as he made this illegal move .

I know some folks will moan at the idea of a controversial end to a great season , but I think this is great .
A good controversy sets us all up for a great post-season session of debate .

I was sad it was over , but maybe it's not !

Don't hold your breath. Ferrari, which would be the team to gain most from a post-race penalty against Vettel had 48 hours hour to spot what is all over the internet. How come someone with a choppy video spots something that 12 teams, a bootload of marshals, stewards and officials have so far missed?

[Ranger]

Granted. What do the rules say exactly? And the next question is, why did nobody notice that on the day it happened? I would think Ferrari would have jumped at that like a pack of dogs on a three-legged cat?

I couldn't find the exact rules in the pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/A0C5392CB79B3323C1257A85004FFAA9/$FILE/2012%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2009-03-2012.pdf) that's available on FIA's website.

The incident wasn't broadcast on any main feed, as it happened when FOM were showing replays of the start.

My guess is that Ferrari can't appeal something they don't see or find out about. It was only available on an optional feed, not a major broadcaster.


What about the lights on the right side? There's one at 10:27, the colour of which looks a bit inconclusive. It could be yellow, white, green? Looks to me as if he starts his move after passing that one. If it was green the move would be legit.

It is yellow. Additionally, the yellow flag lights (next to Vettel's gear indicator) appear at 10:10 are still yellow at the time of the pass.

The GPS data would be interesting...


How come someone with a choppy video spots something that 12 teams, a bootload of marshals, stewards and officials have so far missed?

Good question.