Rubbering in .

[Bagwan]

Perhaps our forum paving specialists could chime in on this one .

I'm left wondering , again , after seeing guys slide all over the place , un-able to get any speed out of the cars until there is a load of running , if there isn't some kind of treatment like an "artificial rubbering" that could be done to prepare a track for a race like this .

Could they not run some sort of machine around the track with some spent F1 tires spinning backwards or something , at least on the preferred line ?

If these guys are so consumed with safety , why hasn't someone come up with a simple solution like this ?
Or , did I just come up with a multi-million dollar idea , ready for sale to all the tracks of the world ?

Mind you , when I went to Montreal , back in '04 , some of the marbles at the side of the track looked like they could have been there since Gilles had last driven there

[52Paddy]

It sounds as obnoxious as putting out a red carpet for any soppy celebratory hopping out of a Limo.

[Rollo]

Or , did I just come up with a multi-million dollar idea , ready for sale to all the tracks of the world ?


I think that that is a most excelling idea, which is why I intend to steal it and patent it... muah ha ha ha!

No, seriously. It's a good idea.

[donKey jote]

Nothing new... we always (have to) burnish our tracks after resurfacing before we can resume meaningful testing. Purpose built trailers with loads of tires at a slight angle and a few days of round-the-clock rubbering...
No-brainer really, strange how the pinnacle of motorsport can't do something similar :)

[Mauri A]

Why not put rails on circuits so that the drivers could get rid of steering wheels? Just leave those myriad of switches and knobs on table in front of them.

[Bagwan]

Nothing new... we always (have to) burnish our tracks after resurfacing before we can resume meaningful testing. Purpose built trailers with loads of tires at a slight angle and a few days of round-the-clock rubbering...
No-brainer really, strange how the pinnacle of motorsport can't do something similar :)

Do tell , tar-donkey .
What are you testing , and how does burnishing help ?

Regarding the burnishing , I've always used the word to describe the pressing down of a metal surface .
Are you filling the upper voids with rubber , or are you wearing down the upper surface with the tires ?

[Bagwan]

It sounds as obnoxious as putting out a red carpet for any soppy celebratory hopping out of a Limo.
Would it be better than having to wait until nearer the end of each session to see the top cars come out , without the track rubbered ?
The first session was a bust for set-up .

[Bagwan]

I think that that is a most excelling idea, which is why I intend to steal it and patent it... muah ha ha ha!

No, seriously. It's a good idea.

I'll hunt you down . You know that .

Now , where did I put Bernie's number again ?

[Zico]

I say no, let this natural problem remain a challenge to the teams/drivers... but I am interested to know what kind of contraption you'd build to do this Bagwan?

[Bagwan]

I say no, let this natural problem remain a challenge to the teams/drivers... but I am interested to know what kind of contraption you'd build to do this Bagwan?

It wouldn't have to be too complicated , as I see it .

Something like what Donkey has , I guess , a trailer with tilted wheels would do , presumably , although it sounds like a long haul .
Some sort of rig that could be fitted with a series-appropriate tire , and geared to spin them backwards as it is pulled forwards around the track should be capable of laying down rubber at a faster rate .

A side effect that might be pretty desireable as well , would be that you could have the track cleaned of the marbles created during the rubbering in , before the cars hit the track for any of the sessions .
And , with more grip from the outset , a lesser amount of marbles , theoretically , should be created during the session .

This would counter somewhat , the effect of the slippery offline areas late in the sessions , and that is a factor in inhibiting the speeds attained late on when the track is rubbered normally .


To do this should make running at any time worthwhile , instead of just late in each session when it's rubbered the most .
Given this is a new track , and given that they all face the same issues , I think I would rather have the track , itself , more prepared for the show , so that data collection would be possible from the very outset , hopefully encouraging teams to be out there from the start .

[Mauri A]

It wouldn't have to be too complicated , as I see it .

Something like what Donkey has , I guess , a trailer with tilted wheels would do , presumably , although it sounds like a long haul .
Some sort of rig that could be fitted with a series-appropriate tire , and geared to spin them backwards as it is pulled forwards around the track should be capable of laying down rubber at a faster rate .

A side effect that might be pretty desireable as well , would be that you could have the track cleaned of the marbles created during the rubbering in , before the cars hit the track for any of the sessions .
And , with more grip from the outset , a lesser amount of marbles , theoretically , should be created during the session .

This would counter somewhat , the effect of the slippery offline areas late in the sessions , and that is a factor in inhibiting the speeds attained late on when the track is rubbered normally .


To do this should make running at any time worthwhile , instead of just late in each session when it's rubbered the most .
Given this is a new track , and given that they all face the same issues , I think I would rather have the track , itself , more prepared for the show , so that data collection would be possible from the very outset , hopefully encouraging teams to be out there from the start .
You cant´be serious, have you ever tried to drive a motor car in slippery conditions

[Bagwan]

You cant´be serious, have you ever tried to drive a motor car in slippery conditions

I can be serious , although it may not happen often , and it happens to be the case here .

As far as driving in slippery conditions , I am from Canada , and thus , have tried it once or twice .

It seems that you are thinking that the idea I'm putting forth here in some way makes the track more slippery .
Rest assured that this is not the case . The point is to make it more grippy from the start of the weekend .

[Mauri A]

I can be serious , although it may not happen often , and it happens to be the case here .

As far as driving in slippery conditions , I am from Canada , and thus , have tried it once or twice .

It seems that you are thinking that the idea I'm putting forth here in some way makes the track more slippery .
Rest assured that this is not the case . The point is to make it more grippy from the start of the weekend .

O.K., but in my opinion the condititions must be taken as they are. so, if the track is slippy, you have to drive accordinly.

P.S. I´m always serious as we all Finns!

[donKey jote]

Do tell , tar-donkey .
What are you testing , and how does burnishing help ?

Regarding the burnishing , I've always used the word to describe the pressing down of a metal surface .
Are you filling the upper voids with rubber , or are you wearing down the upper surface with the tires ?

We test tires (Location:52.6529,9.7402 :p ), it stabilises the track grip.
Mainly the latter. :)

[truefan72]

seems like pirelli have acknowledged that they brought the wrong compounds to the track.
My question is how this happened, when they had enough time to test the compounds and understand the expected ambient conditions.

[Bagwan]

seems like pirelli have acknowledged that they brought the wrong compounds to the track.
My question is how this happened, when they had enough time to test the compounds and understand the expected ambient conditions.

While they might have , it wouldn't have made a difference as to whether it would have been slippery in the beginning , but rather , the time it took the back-marker monkeys to rubber it in for the big boys .
That said , I agree with them .

On your question , firstly , this was the first time they've run there , on new tarmac .
Tarmac the world over , is not created equal .
And , I think the ambient conditions are looking rather un-expected to me , with teams in shorts , and jackets .

[Nem14]

The bottom line is, they will all have to deal with the same track conditions.

[driveace]

They are racing drivers earning millions,we are told they are far superior to us less mortals,SO let them deal with the conditions,which are the same for them all !
Get out there and race guys !

[TheFamousEccles]

How about Pirelli sponsor me to go over and do burnouts all along the racing line? I'm having the motor in my 64 falcon hardtop rebuilt to a much stouter spec and I would be happy to do this for free - only need food, beer, lodging and tyres?

[wedge]

What? what!

One minute people moan about drivers not punished for errors, some would prefer tyre warmers banned and now drivers need help with the rubbering-in process?

From a spectating perspective the track is at its best when its green. The cars have enough grip as it is.

[Bagwan]

What? what!

One minute people moan about drivers not punished for errors, some would prefer tyre warmers banned and now drivers need help with the rubbering-in process?

From a spectating perspective the track is at its best when its green. The cars have enough grip as it is.

That help with the rubbering in process , the way I see it , would have us see all the drivers , not just the monkeys on track early , because the rubbering in would be done already .

So , from a spectating perspective , you'd have something to spectate .
The cars don't have enough grip at the start to even get them onto the track .

Then , you could get rid of the tire warmers .

[Zico]

That help with the rubbering in process , the way I see it , would have us see all the drivers , not just the monkeys on track early , because the rubbering in would be done already .

So , from a spectating perspective , you'd have something to spectate .
The cars don't have enough grip at the start to even get them onto the track .

Then , you could get rid of the tire warmers .

Dont you think it would also continue to rubber in with traffic and that the top teams would also just continue to come out later for that reason?

Get rid of tyre warmers? Now that would really create a technical challenge/headache for the teams.... but a far bigger one than that of a green track that will soon sort itself out.

[donKey jote]

They should at very least burnish the grid to prevent the clean side / dirty side lottery at the start :/

[Zico]

They should at very least burnish the grid to prevent the clean side / dirty side lottery at the start :/

+1

[Bagwan]

Dont you think it would also continue to rubber in with traffic and that the top teams would also just continue to come out later for that reason?

Get rid of tyre warmers? Now that would really create a technical challenge/headache for the teams.... but a far bigger one than that of a green track that will soon sort itself out.

From Donkey's description , I think we can say his "burnishing" is our "rubbering" here .

And , all I'm saying is that it might encourage them to come out earlier . If the rubbering is actually effective enough , the job of rubbering is done . The idea is to bring the surface to as close to an optimum amount of rubber for the cars to run full-tilt from the outset .

There would be no point in waiting for the track to come in , as it would be ready to go .
As it's the only time they can test , maybe they would .


And , as far as tire warmers are concerned , it opens up real opportunity for on-track passing as guys struggle the first lap or two to get them to temperature if they aren't warmed first .
That makes for more interesting strategies , in my opinion , because it adds that vulnerable period after the pitting .
These guys can handle it without having the doughnuts fresh-baked .

Keep the warmers for the practice sessions so that they can actually test without having to run them up to temperature , but ban them on race day .

Then , with a patented bagwan-o-matic track treatment device giving the surface the rubberizing burnishment that clearly all the tracks of the world will be scrambling to get as soon as they can , they will not want to waste any time getting out there , as data collection would be possible early on .

bagwan Inc. is soon to be involved in more consulting with donkey Inc. over specific design features such as the rumoured "donkey-vision" that will show in graphic donkey detail where the rubber hits the road , and the "sweeping mule" that will chase the marbles into the ass bin .

[N. Jones]

Isn't the real problem that Pirelli brought the wrong sets of tires? If they would have brought the soft and super-soft we would have a grip problem.

[Bagwan]

Isn't the real problem that Pirelli brought the wrong sets of tires? If they would have brought the soft and super-soft we would have a grip problem.

While I agree that they should have brought different tires , and that that would have rubbered the track in faster , it doesn't change the fact that the track needs to be rubbered in .

That takes time , which this idea would do away with .

It is that time that we sit and watch as almost nobody runs , making it an almost useless exercise for both the teams(as the data is useless) and the fans .
I guess it could be argued that it's the only time the monkeys at the back can shine on TV , but is that enough reason ?
Maybe it is .

But , I still think a better show could be had with a good rubbering from my amazing machine .

[wedge]

In NASCAR they always say new paving creates a single groove. It's when the track is weathered in when the racing improves.

[SGWilko]

Rubbering In? I may still have a copy of this on Betamax.......

[Bagwan]

Rubbering In? I may still have a copy of this on Betamax.......

That's getting pretty close to too much information .

[Bagwan]

At the risk of throwing my own thread off track , I'd like to ask the paving experts about the issue of the oily surface , due to it having been paved only recently .
Is this a problem that would right itself with time alone , had the track been paved earlier , or is it something that also requires running , or perhaps dressing ?

[wedge]

At the risk of throwing my own thread off track , I'd like to ask the paving experts about the issue of the oily surface , due to it having been paved only recently .
Is this a problem that would right itself with time alone , had the track been paved earlier , or is it something that also requires running , or perhaps dressing ?

According to James Allen:


On the first day of practice in Austin the grip level had been very low, due to the recently laid tarmac having a sheen of bitumen on the surface. This began to be ripped away, revealing the grippy stones underneath, but only on the racing line. As the weekend wore on and more rubber went down the grip level came up, giving a 10% improvement compared to Friday.

Why the US Grand Prix turned out as it did on (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/why-the-us-grand-prix-turned-out-as-it-did-on-unique-austin-circuit/)

[Bagwan]

Thank-you , wedge .

And , so came the "bitumen ripper" attachment for the bagwan-o-matic , making it even more versatile , and the ideal answer for all those track owners who have just paved or re-paved .

Yes , folks , you , too , can bring the grip levels from the end of the race forward to the start .

The Bagwan Weekly Times has a quote from one the star reporters , bagwan , who says , frankly :
"It's like .....a time machine , man . I've never seen anything like it . And , I've seen a lot of things , you know . Like , I once saw a video on youtube of a guy who could hop on one leg for a long time . I bet he could use a time machine . What were we talking about again ?"

[SGWilko]

Thank-you , wedge .

And , so came the "bitumen ripper" attachment for the bagwan-o-matic , making it even more versatile , and the ideal answer for all those track owners who have just paved or re-paved .

Yes , folks , you , too , can bring the grip levels from the end of the race forward to the start .

The Bagwan Weekly Times has a quote from one the star reporters , bagwan , who says , frankly :
"It's like .....a time machine , man . I've never seen anything like it . And , I've seen a lot of things , you know . Like , I once saw a video on youtube of a guy who could hop on one leg for a long time . I bet he could use a time machine . What were we talking about again ?"

Hey, where can we buy the Bagwan-o-matic? Is this a JML product or ACME?

[Bagwan]

Hey, where can we buy the Bagwan-o-matic? Is this a JML product or ACME?

Have your people call my people .

The bagwan-o-matic is a registered trademark of bagwan Inc. , a division of the bagwan Corporation , owned and operated by Sir Bagley Ecclestone , who is sitting beside the pool with me as I write this .

[donKey jote]

At the risk of throwing my own thread off track , I'd like to ask the paving experts about the issue of the oily surface , due to it having been paved only recently .
Is this a problem that would right itself with time alone , had the track been paved earlier , or is it something that also requires running , or perhaps dressing ?
It would take ages with time alone. The oily surface is the bitumen that holds the stones together... burnish ("rubber-in" in baggytalk) your surface with the tires on your baggymatic-trailer and you will also get rid of it. When you asked "Are you filling the upper voids with rubber , or are you wearing down the upper surface with the tires ?" and I replied "Mainly the latter", this is exactly what I meant: first unveil the stones, and then -depending on the stone type- further burnish (polish) them to stabilize the track to their characteristic grip level.
You can also sandblast, grind or waterjet the bitumen away for a quick fix, but this tends to remove more than just the surface, leaving the stones loose.
I could send you pics of the whole process but then I'd probably have to kill myself...

[markabilly]

I could send you pics of the whole process but then I'd have to kill myself...

Send the photos...............

[donKey jote]

in exchange for your photos with Taz's sister :laugh:

[markabilly]

in exchange for your photos with Taz's sister :laugh:

which ones? the ones with your momma and your old lady??

all this talk about rubberin in, all I can say is I known a few where rubberin in was rougher than asphalt

[TheFamousEccles]

My offer still stands - a few sets of tyres laid out dohnut stylee mid corner and 100m either side would do the trick IMO.

Just gotta finish the rebuild :cool: