Woman Dies after being refused abortion in Ireland

[harsha]

Ireland: Death of Indian woman after being refused abortion sparks public, political anger - World - IBNLive (http://ibnlive.in.com/news/ireland-death-of-indian-woman-after-being-refused-abortion-sparks-public-political-anger/305724-2.html)

In the news over here , condolences to the family and hoping that common sense prevails and the abortion laws in Ireland are amended

[Rudy Tamasz]

And now watch the worms...

[Mark]

The laws don't need to be amended, they already allow for abortion in the case where it threatens the mothers life. But the staff refused on the basis 'we are a catholic country'.

[Malbec]

But the staff refused on the basis 'we are a catholic country'.

Thats what the family say so should be taken with a pinch of salt. The Irish do perform TOPs if the mother's health is threatened though they view it as a last resort.

Most likely they didn't recognise the degree of sepsis and felt that it could be controlled only on IV antibiotics from the little details that are available. If that was the case then the team looking after her would have thought a TOP wouldn't have been necessary to save her life. Incidentally even in the UK sepsis is the leading cause of maternal death so linking her death directly to the refusal to perform a TOP is jumping the gun a bit.

More information will come out with the autopsy and inquiry so I think some of the emotive language being pushed around is slightly irresponsible.

[harsha]

i agree , lets wait for information by any source other than the media....

[Mark]

i agree , lets wait for information by any source other than the media....

Which won't come or will be similarly dismissed.

[Malbec]

Which won't come or will be similarly dismissed.

IIRC coroner reports are usually in the public domain so that shouldn't be a problem.

[harsha]

seems the poor woman died of septicaemia due to the miscarriage of the child.

[gloomyDAY]

"This is a Catholic country." Yeah, that's the saddest part. Poor woman was refused an abortion because her dead fetus was more important to God than her 32 year-old life. Religion is stupid!

[Starter]

Hmm, where is the outrage that would be shown if this had happened in the US with all the allegations of religious bias and ignorance of the hard core right? Just asking, you know. :rolleyes: :p

[race aficionado]

Unfortunately there is always a possibility Starter.

[Starter]

Unfortunately there is always a possibility Starter.
True, but I was remarking over the double standard of some here.

[BDunnell]

Hmm, where is the outrage that would be shown if this had happened in the US with all the allegations of religious bias and ignorance of the hard core right?

There is plenty of outrage about this, actually — just not too many posts here. It is absolutely impossible to justify what happened on any level.

[Malbec]

It is absolutely impossible to justify what happened on any level.

What exactly did happen?

While the media is portraying that the patient died because a TOP wasn't performed, there is little so far to suggest that would have been the case.

[loowisham]

The laws don't need to be amended, they already allow for abortion in the case where it threatens the mothers life. But the staff refused on the basis 'we are a catholic country'.
Yes, I read that too. The Supreme Court in Ireland in a case 15 years ago concluded that if a womans life was in danger that it was legal to abort the child.
Anyone know if the doctor was Irish?

[BDunnell]

What exactly did happen?

While the media is portraying that the patient died because a TOP wasn't performed, there is little so far to suggest that would have been the case.

I must confess to only having looked peripherally at the story, so do enlighten us.

[Malbec]

I must confess to only having looked peripherally at the story, so do enlighten us.

As you've suggested to others perhaps you should take the time to read even briefly any articles about what happened?

So far the accusation that an abortion wasn't carried out due to Ireland being Catholic comes from a source that wasn't even in the same continent at the time with no context given despite the rapidly evolving clinical situation.

Also given Ireland faces similar recruitment difficulties as the NHS in O/G I would suspect there's a good chance the clinicians concerned were Hindu or Muslim rather than Catholic, if so that would put the religious line into perspective.

As I mentioned before instead of a kneejerk reaction at a sensationalist headline I would wait for the coroner's report.

[Dave B]

As I understand it, the fault lies not with the law itself but a particular doctor's interpretation of that law due to their personal beliefs, combined with an unwillingness to pass the case to a colleague who didn't share his view on abortion.

[gadjo_dilo]

As I understand it, the fault lies not with the law itself but a particular doctor's interpretation of that law due to their personal beliefs, combined with an unwillingness to pass the case to a colleague who didn't share his view on abortion.

No offence but couldn't be as well the doctor's incompetence in appreciating the seriousness of the case?

( As well as my incompetence to understand an English text: "Her husband said the doctors diagnosed the miscarriage within hours, but despite his appeals to conduct an abortion, they refused" )

[Dave B]

No offence taken, as like everybody else I'm not totally familiar with the case. Hopefully the investigation will get to the bottom of the matter.

[Malbec]

As I understand it, the fault lies not with the law itself but a particular doctor's interpretation of that law due to their personal beliefs, combined with an unwillingness to pass the case to a colleague who didn't share his view on abortion.

I haven't read any reports since this thread started but I can't see anything yet to suggest that a termination of pregnancy was definitely the appropriate thing to do or would have altered the patient's survival.

[Malbec]

"Her husband said the doctors diagnosed the miscarriage within hours, but despite his appeals to conduct an abortion, they refused" )

See, this doesn't make sense.

An uncomplicated miscarriage would not require a termination of pregnancy as the body would be doing that itself without help.

[Mark]

Not really. There are many ways to miscarriage. Happened to someone in our family where the baby just died and she had to have a c-section to remove the fetus.

[Malbec]

Not really. There are many ways to miscarriage. Happened to someone in our family where the baby just died and she had to have a c-section to remove the fetus.

That would have been later than 19 weeks though no?

[Mark]

No, was at 10 weeks IIRC.

[gadjo_dilo]

See, this doesn't make sense.

An uncomplicated miscarriage would not require a termination of pregnancy as the body would be doing that itself without help.

I'm not an expert in gynecology ( :o ) but I think Mark is right. That's why I can't understand this case. In case the doctor knew the fetus is no more viable even his ( supposed ) religious views couldn't stop him.

[Malbec]

No, was at 10 weeks IIRC.

Sure it wasn't a dilatation and curettage or ERPC? A c-section wouldn't be appropriate unless an emergency at a very late stage endangering the patient's life.

[Rudy Tamasz]

The situations like this should be handled by doctors and not the Internet wisemen who studied medicine by reading forums and watching House MD. In this case doctors made their call and what happened happened. They might have made an error like all of us do, or the patient's body just gave up, or something else happened. I see no reason to bring up the fact that Ireland is a catholic country (oh, really?) unless this was explicitly cited by doctors as a reason to deny removing the foetus. If there is no proof of that, the whole story has so much speculation to it, it is not worth seriously discussing.

[loowisham]

The point of all of this is that the woman died after the baby was miscarried. When there is no firm established law that is known by all and sundry these situations can occur.
Ireland has one of the best survival rates for children/mortality per 1m.
Ironically, the Indian Times states that instead of the issues regarding what has occured in Ireland ,India would be better served if they addressed infant mortality and the female infanticide prevalent in their own country.

[gloomyDAY]

The situations like this should be handled by doctors and not the Internet wisemen who studied medicine by reading forums and watching House MD. In this case doctors made their call and what happened happened. They might have made an error like all of us do, or the patient's body just gave up, or something else happened. I see no reason to bring up the fact that Ireland is a catholic country (oh, really?) unless this was explicitly cited by doctors as a reason to deny removing the foetus. If there is no proof of that, the whole story has so much speculation to it, it is not worth seriously discussing.You did not read the article. The doctor's told her that, "This is a Catholic country." That was a reason as to why her abortion wasn't approved, so religion was a factor in her death. Stupid, right?

[ioan]

As you've suggested to others perhaps you should take the time to read even briefly any articles about what happened?

So far the accusation that an abortion wasn't carried out due to Ireland being Catholic comes from a source that wasn't even in the same continent at the time with no context given despite the rapidly evolving clinical situation.

Also given Ireland faces similar recruitment difficulties as the NHS in O/G I would suspect there's a good chance the clinicians concerned were Hindu or Muslim rather than Catholic, if so that would put the religious line into perspective.

As I mentioned before instead of a kneejerk reaction at a sensationalist headline I would wait for the coroner's report.

So you dismiss the possibility that the abortion was refused due to Catholic religion beliefs, then you go ahead making up a scenario where the doctors are most probably Hindu or Muslim?!
Dismissing one possibility by making up another one! Way to go, NOT!

[Rudy Tamasz]

You did not read the article. The doctor's told her that, "This is a Catholic country." That was a reason as to why her abortion wasn't approved, so religion was a factor in her death. Stupid, right?

This is based solely on the statement of the unfortunate lady's husband, who might be somewhat biased. I have yet to see an independent account of the story. BTW, I just read it on Reuters, that a new investigation was opened but the husband would not cooperate with it.

[gloomyDAY]

This is based solely on the statement of the unfortunate lady's husband, who might be somewhat biased. I have yet to see an independent account of the story. BTW, I just read it on Reuters, that a new investigation was opened but the husband would not cooperate with it.Can't blame the guy. I'd hire a lawyer and keep my mouth shut too!

[Malbec]

So you dismiss the possibility that the abortion was refused due to Catholic religion beliefs, then you go ahead making up a scenario where the doctors are most probably Hindu or Muslim?!
Dismissing one possibility by making up another one! Way to go, NOT!

Incorrect.

I'm highlighting how little information is available about what happened although this hasn't stopped people from making their minds up.

Do you know what religion the clinical lead was? I don't but I do know its ignorant to assume they were Catholic.

[Malbec]

This is based solely on the statement of the unfortunate lady's husband, who might be somewhat biased. I have yet to see an independent account of the story.

From what I understand those quotes were from the parents of one of the couple and weren't even in Europe at the time let alone present at the hospital during this tragedy.

[The Black Knight]

If this was my wife this happened to the doctor that refused the abortion would now have a bullet lodged into his brain.

[gadjo_dilo]

If this was my wife this happened to the doctor that refused the abortion would now have a bullet lodged into his brain.

A knightly gesture.....

[Rudy Tamasz]

If this was my wife this happened to the doctor that refused the abortion would now have a bullet lodged into his brain.

I recall an old joke, probably from the Prohibition era. Gangsters bring their wounded fellow to a clinic, straignt to the surgeon's table. One tells the surgeon: "Fix him. But if he dies, you're dead." The surgeon shows his gun and replies: "If he dies, I'll know it a second before you do."

[loowisham]

You did not read the article. The doctor's told her that, "This is a Catholic country." That was a reason as to why her abortion wasn't approved, so religion was a factor in her death. Stupid, right?

Having been to Ireland many times and in touch with people living there and in the UK it would seem completely out of character and medically unprofessional for a surgeon/doctor to state that a procedure would not take place because it would take place in a "Catholic country".

Irish people are very educated and are not afraid to voice their opinion. What I see here in the quote is a fundamentalist statement and no doctor would be subject to any legal repercussions either civil or criminal.

[Malbec]

Having been to Ireland many times and in touch with people living there and in the UK it would seem completely out of character and medically unprofessional for a surgeon/doctor to state that a procedure would not take place because it would take place in a "Catholic country".

This isn't necessarily the case.

In the UK when abortion was legalised Catholic gynaecologists often refused to perform them. That in itself wasn't a problem as long as they referred the patient to someone who was willing to do so.

Unfortunately a minority (and I stress that it was a minority) refused to perform the abortion or refer to someone willing, instead deferring the procedure until after the 24 week deadline so the patient would have no choice but to take the pregnancy to term.


What I see here in the quote is a fundamentalist statement and no doctor would be subject to any legal repercussions either civil or criminal.

IF the procedure was not performed solely due to the religious beliefs of the medical practitioner despite it being clinically indicated then that person would be liable to both professional misconduct investigations and potentially to a criminal case (at least in the UK). They would also be open to litigation.

O/G is worldwide the single riskiest medical speciality which is reflected both by litigation coverage costs and a global shortage of recruits willing to enter such a stressful field. This case merely reflects why thats the case.

That said, I think this case has been highly misrepresented by the press and there is no indication yet that an abortion was the appropriate thing to do or would have influenced the outcome. We have only been presented with a single version of events from the family, its odd that few people on this thread can recognise the unreliability of the information they have been given.

[Malbec]

I recall an old joke, probably from the Prohibition era. Gangsters bring their wounded fellow to a clinic, straignt to the surgeon's table. One tells the surgeon: "Fix him. But if he dies, you're dead." The surgeon shows his gun and replies: "If he dies, I'll know it a second before you do."

Some of my surgical and ITU friends and colleagues working in areas where there are old-school English and Irish gangs have actually been told to their faces "he dies, you die".

That said, we once had a drug kingpin from Manchester who had a fracture following a prison fight. Once he'd been sorted out he asked for the registrar's name and told him "I'll remember you and you'll remember me, if you need anything or anyone sorted out ask for me and I'll clear it up for you". Found out later he'd been arrested having emptied a handgun into a police range rover so he probably did have some real clout.

[Rudy Tamasz]

"I'll remember you and you'll remember me, if you need anything or anyone sorted out ask for me and I'll clear it up for you".

What an innocent sounding but oh so meaningful wording. I love this.

[fandango]

I haven't been on the forum here for a while, so that's why I haven't commented here before on this thread. I think that the "This is a Catholic country" quote has many possible interpretations.

It may have been that the doctors and nurses felt that they couldn't act because of the law, and that they offered this phrase as a poor excuse for their lack of action. If that is the case I feel sorry for them as well as for the people who died and their family. Ireland as a country has let them all down through cowardice in the face of a difficult problem.

It may be that the doctors refused action based on their own religious beliefs. In that case I can only say Jesus must be f***ing delighted with them.

This whole episode has made me ashamed of my home country. What also pi**es me off is the way so many Irish people seem more concerned with the world's opinion of us "lovely lovable rogues" than with actually making sure this never can happen again.

[loowisham]

why would you be ashamed? Has there been a conclusive result to this? I have family in Ireland and I have never come across the attitude that they wanted to be "lovely,lovable rogues.
My opinion of the Irish is that they are an educated people. Alas, they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals.

Doctors do not make decisions based upon faith (religious) on their own. In a case like this there would be more than one person making the call.

I'm sure (as much as I can be) that the matter was presented to the administrator who would then consult the legal aspects.

The poor lady did not die immediately after the miscarriage and Ireland is not a country that takes medicine lightly.

My most vivid recollection is that doctors at the Rotunda hospital were fearful of the number of African people that were arriving with the aids virus.

They had a valid complaint yet they performed the task.

[donKey jote]

they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals.
...
African people that were arriving with the aids virus.


:dozey:

[loowisham]

:dozey:

I don't understand your post. You have cherry picked two comments and make it look as though they were part of the same sentence, where in fact they were completely separate.

[loowisham]

:dozey:

I don't understand your post. You have cherry picked two comments and make it look as though they were part of the same sentence, where in fact they were completely separate.

[donKey jote]

My opinion of the Irish is that they are an educated people. Alas, they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals.
Alas, you don't appear to understand how such statements could be misconstrued... :dozey:



My most vivid recollection is that doctors at the Rotunda hospital were fearful of the number of African people that were arriving with the aids virus.
They had a valid complaint yet they performed the task.

They may have had a valid prejudice, but alas, this has absolutely nothing to do with the case in question. The Rotunda is in Ireland, but apart from that, the woman wasn't African nor was anyone fearfull she had Aids... :dozey:

[loowisham]

How on earth do you know what fears may have been present? The danger of people from third world countries bringing in the aids virus and subjecting the medical staff to it's dangers was/is very real.

Do you know anything about Irish law? Irish law states that a pregnant woman near full term must be allowed to deliver the child. This was a law that was taken advantage of by many third world countries try to enter the Republic and thus gaining citizenship through the child. The only part of this that has changed is that the only citizen will be the child. However, the parents can petition the government to allow them to stay. They can't unless they win their case nor can the child until he/she is 18 and then may return.

Ireland is a first world country and like everything else it is bound by laws that affect the medical community as well as other areas of life.

The question I would like answered is what was the medical condition of the unfortunate woman before she entered the hospital and what demands were made upon them as dictated by their (Indians) religion be it Hindu or Muslim......

Again, I did not state she had aids. I pointed out that these doctors and surgeons performed medical procedures when at great risk to themselves and their colleagues.

[donKey jote]

Rant on, prove my point, whatever it was... :dozey:


How on earth do you know what fears may have been present? The danger of people from third world countries bringing in the aids virus and subjecting the medical staff to it's dangers was/is very real.
Even if such a danger as you put it were as real as you apparently fear it is... what exactly has it to do with this case, unless the Irish doctors treating this (alas) foreign national were as prejudiced and paranoid as you might be?



Do you know anything about Irish law?
I'm an Irish citizen so by law I'm Irish. Other than that, I'll admit: not much, no.



Irish law states that a pregnant woman near full term must be allowed to deliver the child.
as opposed to eg Boogistan law, which states that a pregnant foreign woman near full term must not be allowed to deliver the child. :laugh:




This was a law that was taken advantage of by many third world countries try to enter the Republic and thus gaining citizenship through the child. The only part of this that has changed is that the only citizen will be the child. However, the parents can petition the government to allow them to stay. They can't unless they win their case nor can the child until he/she is 18 and then may return.
Ireland under seige! I call bollox...
Anyhow, what has this got to do with the case in question? Did this (alas) foreign family have any intention of becoming Irish through the child? Did this affect the doctor's decisions? They desperately wanted her to keep the child so the family could become first world citizens and chip away at the Irish identity? :cornfused:




Ireland is a first world country and like everything else it is bound by laws that affect the medical community as well as other areas of life.
Did anybody say it wasn't? Ireland is also the land of the bogs and the little people.



The question I would like answered is what was the medical condition of the unfortunate woman before she entered the hospital and what demands were made upon them as dictated by their (Indians) religion be it Hindu or Muslim......
Nobody here has the details. The woman died of scepticaemia. According to an item in News Scientist, it is unclear if the serious threat that her pregnancy and infection posed went unrecognised -a genuine mistake in my view-, or if University Hospital Galway (not Rotunda ;) ) doctors felt that as long as the fetus had a heartbeat their hands were tied by Ireland's restrictive abortion law -for me a mistaken moral judgement-.




Again, I did not state she had aids. I pointed out that these doctors and surgeons performed medical procedures when at great risk to themselves and their colleagues.
Again, I don't understand why you mention aids and Africans at all. Doctors of all people are I'm sure well aware of the risks of aids and the precautions they should take, whether the patients are African or (alas) Irish drug addicts.

[loowisham]

Rant on, prove my point, whatever it was... :dozey:


Even if such a danger as you put it were as real as you apparently fear it is... what exactly has it to do with this case, unless the Irish doctors treating this (alas) foreign national were as prejudiced and paranoid as you might be?


I'm an Irish citizen so by law I'm Irish. Other than that, I'll admit: not much, no.



as opposed to eg Boogistan law, which states that a pregnant foreign woman near full term must not be allowed to deliver the child. :laugh:



Ireland under seige! I call bollox...
Anyhow, what has this got to do with the case in question? Did this (alas) foreign family have any intention of becoming Irish through the child? Did this affect the doctor's decisions? They desperately wanted her to keep the child so the family could become first world citizens and chip away at the Irish identity? :cornfused:



Did anybody say it wasn't? Ireland is also the land of the bogs and the little people.


Nobody here has the details. The woman died of scepticaemia. According to an item in News Scientist, it is unclear if the serious threat that her pregnancy and infection posed went unrecognised -a genuine mistake in my view-, or if University Hospital Galway (not Rotunda ;) ) doctors felt that as long as the fetus had a heartbeat their hands were tied by Ireland's restrictive abortion law -for me a mistaken moral judgement-.



Again, I don't understand why you mention aids and Africans at all. Doctors of all people are I'm sure well aware of the risks of aids and the precautions they should take, whether the patients are African or (alas) Irish drug addicts.
You spent quite a bit of time trying to dismantle my post with your sarcastic remarks and once again cherry picking.

Most of what you tried can easily be understood if one with a modicum of intelligence looked at it without the jaundiced eye of one with a preconceived notion that what they post, all 8,000 of them merits some type of ovation and credibility.

If, and I say that with great reservation you are Irish, I wonder if you know anything about why Irish law changed over the past number of years and why doctors and nurses wishing to perform their duty were compelled under whatever law they had to adhere to allow the pregnancy to continue or they made a bad medical decision.

Just one more point. If you do not know what your "rant" is, I suggest you not post a reply to me.

If you are Irish you demean the good people of Ireland by making trying to make fun with a total lack of dignity directed towards the dead woman and child and family by making me your target. Childish and boorish.

As an Irish citizen you should read a little more of your laws. You should also take note as to why your laws were changed and instead of your tactless use of an imaginary country with your laughing emoticon as a rebuttal is shameful. When you have a real point instead of nit picking and juvenile commentary you might come up with something that will allow the thread to continue with dignity.

[donKey jote]

whatever :crazy: :laugh:

Just one last point...
If you really don't know what my rant was, it was this:
I found your comments about the "Alas, [the Irish] they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals." to be extremely ignorant and prejudiced.
Alas? Losing their identity? So many foreign nationals?
(I presume you mean the identity of the Irish in Ireland, not the many that "influxed" around the world)

I also found your indirectly associating "foreign"/African and AIDS (not even HIV positive) to be extremely ignorant and prejudiced.

O'dear, that was two points. I won't even continue with other issues you brought up in your subsequent posts. :dozey:

[loowisham]

"whatever?!", The deliberate use of a word to create an atmosphere of confrontation.

For someone claiming to be Irish and finding my comments to be"ignorant and prejudiced" is laughable. Aids, HIV was/is a very grave concern of the Irish medical board for years and has been an issue brought up by your own health board. Your government was also, with assistance of France checking would be immigrants on French soil before they made their trip to Ireland. Whatever your unfounded characterization of my comments and your wanton disregard of own malcontent and knee jerk reaction without an iota of academic discourse to dispute what I have said.

I would suggest you read this article from one of your national papers; Ireland is losing its true identity - Letters, Opinion - Independent.ie (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/ireland-is-losing-its-true-identity-254826.html)

You bandy about using ignorance and your own self righteous indignation as though it were proof positive that you are correct and those not born in Ireland are not as well read or knowledgeable as you.
That would be an incorrect assumption. Indeed, I find your responses very limited.

[donKey jote]

It's not an article, it's a letter. No doubt by one of your more knowledgeable "educated people"...

I would never have regarded myself as racist, nor am I. But...
whatever! :laugh:

Just to clarify my (non-)Irishness: I'm a foreign-born Irish citizen but my Government is currently the Bundesregierung :p


Back to the thread, or not...
AIDS or immigration issues have nothing to do with this case, so feel free to start another thread if you're so inclined :)

Its very awful I really get worried after this.This is very unethical particularly with the immigrants.All the humans are equal and they should provide basic health facilities no matter where they are.This is there basic right right.

[loowisham]

It's not an article, it's a letter. No doubt by one of your more knowledgeable "educated people"...

whatever! :laugh:

Just to clarify my (non-)Irishness: I'm a foreign-born Irish citizen but my Government is currently the Bundesregierung :p


Back to the thread, or not...
AIDS or immigration issues have nothing to do with this case, so feel free to start another thread if you're so inclined :)

Oh my, he/she has to stoop to semantics. What difference is there whether it is a letter or an article? I'm sure you will come up with something seeping with sarcasm.

Your Irishness, well I felt that was an accident of being born in the EU.

You state that the Aids or immigration have nothing to do with this. In fact both have everything to do with it. Read what health organizations have to say and here is a excerpt from an article from Irishhealth.com.

"Some fears have been expressed that Ireland is at more risk from TB now that there is significant emigration from eastern Europe and Russia, where some vaccine-resistant forms of the disease have been found.
Prof Clancy says it is not racist to say that new arrivals could be bringing TB. "It is a fact. Countries such Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia all have a high incidence of multi-drug resistance. People have to be screened when they arrive here."
WHAT IS TB?
http://www.irishhealth.com/content/image/11418/image003.jpg
Tuberculosis, known as TB for short, is an infection caused by a bacterium, Mycobacterium tuberculosis. It is one of the oldest diseases known to man, and was once so common that every adult was thought to have experienced a bout of TB infection during their lives.
TB is contagious, and is caught by inhaling microscopic droplets containing the bacterium, which are produced when an infected person coughs or sneezes. The illness usually affects the lungs, but sometimes can spread to other organs. It gets its name from the tubercles, or hard lumps that form on the lungs to contain the TB bacteria.
TB in the past could be a serious illness. Consumption, as TB used to be called, claimed the lives of up to a quarter of all adults in Britain during the 19th century. TB remains very common in other parts of the world, especially Africa and South-East Asia. Over 80% of India's adult population have had the disease at least once. It is estimated that a third of the world's population could be infected with TB, and over three million may die from it this year.

Now you state that Aids and immigration have nothing at all to do with this case. Of course they have and your blind and belittling rebuttals are evident that you are not even familiar with how, if ,thought and education were applied you may/or may not see that as a result of certain situations and circumstance decisions , right or wrong can be made to affect the treatment in future".

By the way, if you are a citizen of Ireland (assuming) it is ROI then I suggest you visit. It would also be well advised to know that you , if you are an Irish citizen are subject to Irish law.

If you choose to reply to me, please be a little more courteous as your youth is transparent and not in keeping with those I have conversed with so far.

[donKey jote]

Semantics? No, an individual exposing his insecurity wiht the classic "I'm not racist, but..." in a letter. That was your proof of whatever? :laugh:
So it's TB now, what next? :D
Rattle on about AIDS, TB and immigrants chipping away (alas) at the Irish identity all you want... this very unfortunate case was either due to a genuine medical mistake or to a (in my view) mistaken moral judgement influenced by the legal restrictions on abortion, NOT by the views on AIDS, Africans or other immigrants of those involved. Unless of course they are as ignorant and prejudiced regarding these aspects as you appear to be from what you post.

To quote someone else you have also conversed about Ireland with in your latest persona:

Epic fail, now go and bother someone else please.

[loowisham]

Semantics? No, an individual exposing his insecurity wiht the classic "I'm not racist, but..." in a letter. That was your proof of whatever? :laugh:
So it's TB now, what next? :D
Rattle on about AIDS, TB and immigrants chipping away (alas) at the Irish identity all you want... this very unfortunate case was either due to a genuine medical mistake or to a (in my view) mistaken moral judgement influenced by the legal restrictions on abortion, NOT by the views on AIDS, Africans or other immigrants of those involved. Unless of course they are as ignorant and prejudiced regarding these aspects as you appear to be from what you post.

To quote someone else you have also conversed about Ireland with in your latest persona:

my latest persona? If you want my name to know who I am just ask. Don't be a coward and using your smiley faces and snark, sarcastic comments. If you can't see the point of the analogy and why "fear" as a result of past experience may have been the cause. Not an excuse but a possible contribution.
It seems I am more familiar with Ireland than you but you spout and claim Irish citizenship. Amazing.
PM me if you wish to know who I am and stop this character assassination that you are now bringing to the fore.

[donKey jote]

Statements like "Alas, they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals." simply smack of prejudice and are hard to excuse, and if you choose to live in fear of the "very real" dangers of catching AIDS or TB from third world people or think everyone else does, that's up to you.
Anyway, we've gone around in circles (or more like a downward spiral) enough. That's it from me in this thread... take it to PM if you wish.

[loowisham]

Statements like "Alas, they are losing their identity with the influx of so many foreign nationals." simply smack of prejudice and are hard to excuse, and if you choose to live in fear of the "very real" dangers of catching AIDS or TB from third world people or think everyone else does, that's up to you.
Anyway, we've gone around in circles (or more like a downward spiral) enough. That's it from me in this thread... take it to PM if you wish.
Well, I see that now you are suggesting to me to PM. If you had read my last post I had suggested you PM me but you have chosen to leave your insults and innuendo for public consumtion. Is that the way it works here? Since I'm new I am not familiar with the ethical guidlines but insulting seems to be tolerated. At least your posts.

Its very awful I really get worried after this.This is very unethical particularly with the immigrants.All the humans are equal and they should provide basic health facilities no matter where they are.This is there basic right right.


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