The 2012 United States Grand Prix (Circuit of the Americas)

[gloomyDAY]

Welcome, world!

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_malo80apsF1rtxen9o1_r1_400.gif

[Rollo]

Welcome to the last United States GP at this track...

BBC News - US election: Unhappy Americans ask to secede from US (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301477)

I bet ol' Boss Hogg is gonna be real made if'n he sees those Duke boys start racing round like a Jack Rabbit with a stick of jelly up it's hoo-haa.

Welcome to the 2013 Confederate States GP :D Yeehaa!

[N. Jones]

LOL. I read that there were petitions to secede after the '04 and '08 elections too.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

Anyway, I am hoping to take a trek out to Austin next year for the race (unless I can make a trip to Montreal first!).

[Tazio]

Welcome to the last United States GP at this track...

BBC News - US election: Unhappy Americans ask to secede from US (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301477)

I bet ol' Boss Hogg is gonna be real made if'n he sees those Duke boys start racing round like a Jack Rabbit with a stick of jelly up it's hoo-haa.

Welcome to the 2013 Confederate States GP Yeehaa!"Remember The Shallow Mo.......FO"
Rollo you have evolved into low hanging fruit.


As the Texas capital prepares to host the first Grand Prix in the United States in five years, some in laid-back Austin say this weekend's glamorous race clashes with the city's soul.

In this environmentally-conscious college town of 800,000, where the bumper stickers say "Keep Austin Weird" and there are no professional sports teams, there is widespread opposition to the Formula One race.

Austin Symphony Hall


http://www.jaffeholden.com/cmsAdmin/uploads/long_center.jpg

http://chefstableaustin.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/ballet-austin.jpg
http://askmissa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Romeo-and-Juliet-Ballet-Austin1.jpg

The acoustic needs of a facility like the Long Center are not only acute, but also diverse. Venues like Dell Hall and the Rollins Theatre have to support clear, sharp, natural acoustics for performances of the founding resident companies; the Austin Symphony Orchestra, Austin Lyric Opera and Ballet Austin, as well as many other community arts groups.


"For a lot of us longtime Austinites, Formula One is hard to swallow," City Council Member Chris Riley wrote in the Austin American-Statesman last year. "We're not that big on fast cars; we're more into hybrids, electric vehicles, bikes and public transit."


http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000sQjOjc2cdus/s/880/880/With-futuristic-glass-skyline-and-neon-lights-Austin-is-a-modern-high-tech-cosmopolitan-city.jpg

I am at a loss for words as to how describe not only the diversity within a country or even one of its States or cities to foreigners that have a preconceived notion of what it looks like in The United States of America.
I've been forced to create a new form of a word, "Plethorizing" As in: "Your (and others all over the world on numerous forums I've visited) jealousy is plethorizing!! Taking on many and varied forms, with seemingly no end to these variations. :dozey:

Here is what Highschool kids do in Austin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMqbkqRYKms

[zako85]

I like Austin, but honestly, I haven't heard of a less deserving city to host a Formula 1 race. I am referring to the constant leftist opposition to having a race held there on all sort ridiculous grounds. The organizers had to cave in to satisfy many inane demands. Granted, the State of Texas is giving a considerable subsidy to have this race held in Texas. Still, Dallas or Houston seem to be better markets, with more population, bigger airports, more hotels, more welcoming city councils, etc.

[Donney]

On a positive note I think the track looks fantastic and I can't wait for the race to start.

[jarrambide]

I like Austin, but honestly, I haven't heard of a less deserving city to host a Formula 1 race. I am referring to the constant leftist opposition to having a race held there on all sort ridiculous grounds. The organizers had to cave in to satisfy many inane demands. Granted, the State of Texas is giving a considerable subsidy to have this race held in Texas. Still, Dallas or Houston seem to be better markets, with more population, bigger airports, more hotels, more welcoming city councils, etc.

I live in Houston and I will have to say that I believe Austin is a better location for this race for many reasons:
a) Easier to find enough space for a descent track close to the urban area.
b) Close enough to Dallas, Houston, San Antonio and northeast Mexico, a country that has many F1 fans and that are very interested to see a Mexican driver.
c) It is the state capital and this race is happening because the state government is supporting it big time, can't see those politicians supporting so much in Houston or Dallas.
d) Houston and Dallas are so spread that it is ridiculous, you can drive for an hour at 60 miles per hour and still be in the metropolitan area, easier to move around in a smaller area like Austin.
e) It is true that the Houston metropolitan area and the Dallas/Fort Worth metropolitan area have more hotel rooms than Austin, but San Antonio (which is a vacation destination) is little more than an hour from Austin and if you combine Austin and San Antonio, you get more hotel rooms than either of those metropolitan areas in the same area size.
f) I guess I'm just happy to be able to go to an F1 race after so many years and I would probably think that any city they had chosen was the best possible option.

[kfzmeister]

Is this the thread where we talk about the actual racing? I'm cornfused (from Illinois). Anyway, GoZo!
Need something major to happen to Vettel.

[nigelred5]

Welcome to the last United States GP at this track...

BBC News - US election: Unhappy Americans ask to secede from US (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20301477)

I bet ol' Boss Hogg is gonna be real made if'n he sees those Duke boys start racing round like a Jack Rabbit with a stick of jelly up it's hoo-haa.

Welcome to the 2013 Confederate States GP :D Yeehaa!

Laugh if you want but its not racist rednecks signing those petetions and its not restricted to the south. There's some very educated fiscally responsible and level headed folks that KNOW this country is not on a sustainable course under the current government or its current leadership and ill leave it at that.

[Tazio]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7r84FSCIAI4ZVg.jpg:large
https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/1035_551860674840277_2025555242_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/535506_551879344838410_1490399528_n.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJM_fFxrzEU

[Tazio]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7sZcoPCMAI0g4y.jpg

"Zo" stopping for some gasoline in the good ol' USA.

BACK IN THE USA -- LINDA RONSTADT & CHUCK BERRY - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8i5PEhtWzY)

[jarrambide]

Laugh if you want but its not racist rednecks signing those petetions and its not restricted to the south. There's some very educated fiscally responsible and level headed folks that KNOW this country is not on a sustainable course under the current government or its current leadership and ill leave it at that.

Some very educated fiscally responsible and level heads who would like this country to go back to their glory days when people with pigment on their skin wouldn't move to your neighborhood, knew their place in life and would never try to get nice jobs and would certainly never run for president? ;) I'll leave it at that.

This is a F1 forum, if I remember correctly, they love to discuss politics on one of the other forums we have on this site, instead of getting way off topic with polarizing topics that have nothing to do with this topic, lets talk about the one thing that unites everyone in here, the racing, besides, everyone knows only Basques (specifically those born in Bilbao) are level headed, ask Donkey Jote, he knows about us. :)

[kfzmeister]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7sZcoPCMAI0g4y.jpg


Is dis-a where you put-a da gas??

[gloomyDAY]

http://i.imgur.com/EP5f3.png

That hill is so steep. Lewis' left wheel is going to lock-up there every time.

[Wasted Talent]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A7sZcoPCMAI0g4y.jpg


Alonso making sure his car is properly fuelled before qualifying......

WT

[Sarah]

P1 so far very slippery, low temp, dusty, not much happening, there is an annoying pit lane alarm

[truefan72]

interesting first session
tracks looks great, a bit tricky though

[gloomyDAY]

The pit-lane alarm is so annoying! I know America is the most litigious nation on the planet, but that alarm is ridiculously loud. Also, section 3 on this track really blows. Turns 12-15 are really stupid because it's a constant stop-and-go style that I really despise on a F1 track. They should've just made a straight line from turn 12 to turn 15 and go from there.

Hamilton is at the top of the FP1 charts. Let's hope he can throw a wrench in this whole process.

[Knock-on]

I like Austin, but honestly, I haven't heard of a less deserving city to host a Formula 1 race. I am referring to the constant leftist opposition to having a race held there on all sort ridiculous grounds. The organizers had to cave in to satisfy many inane demands. Granted, the State of Texas is giving a considerable subsidy to have this race held in Texas. Still, Dallas or Houston seem to be better markets, with more population, bigger airports, more hotels, more welcoming city councils, etc.

I can understand the initial concerns but they are wide of the Mark I'm pleased to say. Austin is a superb City for GP and will quickly become a favourite of the fans. It's clean, friendly and very reasonable financially. The people are welcoming, please to host the race and have embraced F1 more than most venues around the world.

There are some issues Pit side, a few things could have been a bit bigger and certainly some teething problems that will be sorted out next year ( they will need too! ) but Austin gets a big :up: from me. I hope the racing is as good as the venue and somehow I think it will.

[Wasted Talent]

The pit-lane alarm is so annoying! I know America is the most litigious nation on the planet, but that alarm is ridiculously loud. Also, section 3 on this track really blows. Turns 12-15 are really stupid because it's a constant stop-and-go style that I really despise on a F1 track. They should've just made a straight line from turn 12 to turn 15 and go from there.

Hamilton is at the top of the FP1 charts. Let's hope he can throw a wrench in this whole process.

The first section is pretty impressive, very much like the Maggotts/Becketts part of Silverstone. Just watched a few laps of Grosjean in-car on full fuel in FP2 and it is a real challenge. Okay it will not be possible to overtake there, but you can't from turns 12-19 so why not have another fast flowing section in there instead?

The Turkey-like turn 16/17/18 is a good corner in the race but I assume it will be flat in qualifying.

Overall a really good track for a new one, but the hard/medium Pirelli's will make strategy a bit lame, just one stop for everyone

WT

[Tazio]

Having a great time. The three seater F1 ride was awesome. We were supposed to ride with Didier Theys in the 2004 Jordan, but he caught it on fire doing warm up laps, and injured his arm bailing out :eek: We ended up riding with Martin Plowman in the the modified 2003 Jordan Judd v10 that Fisi won the 2003 Brazilian GP with. We hauled ass, I'll post pics later. Vettel looks very tough so far.

[wedge]

The first section is pretty impressive, very much like the Maggotts/Becketts part of Silverstone.

The Esses reminds me more of Suzuka's Essses. I don't know why they make that reference even if it was inspiration. There's an endless left-rights and significant gradient change.

*rubs eyes*

This is a Tilke track right?


Just watched a few laps of Grosjean in-car on full fuel in FP2 and it is a real challenge. Okay it will not be possible to overtake there, but you can't from turns 12-19 so why not have another fast flowing section in there instead?

It certainly is a Tilke track with that cookie cutter nonsense.

There needs to be a proper high speed corner - long straight followed by high speed corner. Tilke can do it for Aragon but not a place like Austin.

[Nem14]

Rotflmao!


overlooking the turn 1, mahoney made his prediction for the race: 26-year-old french lotus driver romain “grosjean will never make it past this first turn.”

[edv]

Rotflmao!

All we need is for him to take out Vettel to make this whole thing more interesting!

[F1boat]

Red Bull look good so far, I hope that they will be able to keep these positions today and tomorrow :)

[donKey jote]

Having a great time.

Enjoy, Mr Ambassador, enjoy !!! :up:

[fenners]

wishing to be there!

[Bagwan]

Having a great time. The three seater F1 ride was awesome. We were supposed to ride with Didier Theys in the 2004 Jordan, but he caught it on fire doing warm up laps, and injured his arm bailing out :eek: We ended up riding with Martin Plowman in the the modified 2003 Jordan Judd v10 that Fisi won the 2003 Brazilian GP with. We hauled ass, I'll post pics later. Vettel looks very tough so far.

Mmmmmmm , V10 !
Can't wait to see those pics , Taz .

[Malbec]

Another round of applause for Sergio! Make or break weekend for Sauber to beat Mercedes and he decides that his race performances aren't enough so has to crash into another car in practice too. Can't wait for Sauber to get rid of him.

[nigelred5]

Long stratghts followed by high speed corner= no passing opportunity. Not that I don't love such a corner. I'd like seeing a configuration that continued the straight to turn 15 and see then take 15-18 at much higher speed. IT's still a friggin awesome track.

[truefan72]

how perez escaped punishment from the pic incident is amazing
mclaren reliability back for an encore
Hamilton is surely outdriving the car
Nice lap from msc to get into Q3
the RBR is easily .400sec faster than any other car out there, once again vettel in cruise mode
surprised that rosberg fiished last in Q2

my prediction, vettel, hamilton, webber, massa, alonso top 5

[N4D13]

It looks that the WDC is over now, UNLESS (and that is a big unless) something miraculous happens. I wouldn't be counting on it, though...

(Yes, I'm such an optimistic fellow, aren't I? :P)

[truefan72]

shocked by ferrari's pace, disaster for Alonso
nice job by grosjean and kimi

Well Hamilton, what can I say, amazing lap considering that the RBR's are clearly faster than the mclaren's. can you imaging what he would have done in the RBR?
I'm holding my head high this afternoon

Webber gave him his kudos as well, nice to see

[Zico]

Wow!.. what a lap by Hamilton.. so close! He will really suffer at the start tomorow on that side of the track though. :(

[truefan72]

Wow!.. what a lap by Hamilton.. so close! He will really suffer at the start tomorow on that side of the track though. :(

indeed

but anything can happen.
We will just have to wait until the race tomorrow

[TMorel]

With Grosjean getting a 5 place drop putting Alonso on the dirty side, is it worth them giving Massa a "gearbox change" to bump Fred up and over onto the clean side of the grid or just hope for the best.

[Wasted Talent]

With Grosjean getting a 5 place drop putting Alonso on the dirty side, is it worth them giving Massa a "gearbox change" to bump Fred up and over onto the clean side of the grid or just hope for the best.

Funnily enough I also thought that it would be no surprise if Massa has to "change" his gearbox tomorrow.....

WT

[JasonPotato]

Just seeing that lap by hammy has confirmed to me anyway that he's a much better driver than Vettel. Clearly he is quicker and i'm not even a huge Hammy fan! Imagine what he could do with the red bull.

[driveace]

Imagine what he will do next year with the Merc !That could be interesting next year !
Does he push Vettel hard untill tyre change,or does he try to have Vettel on the first lap?

[TheFamousEccles]

Only one little grizzle - I surely won't be getting out of bed at 0500 tomorrow morning to watch. Stupid, stupid timing for southern hemisphere fans. I mean, qualifying wasnt on until 0400 this morning! Only the fanatical and the insomniacs get up to watch telly at that time.

Ok, grizzle done. Carry on.

[gloomyDAY]

Only one little grizzle - I surely won't be getting out of bed at 0500 tomorrow morning to watch. Stupid, stupid timing for southern hemisphere fans. I mean, qualifying wasnt on until 0400 this morning! Only the fanatical and the insomniacs get up to watch telly at that time.

Ok, grizzle done. Carry on.Oh, boo-freakin'-hoo!! That would be the time for nearly 3/4s of all the races for me.

[TheFamousEccles]

Oh, boo-freakin'-hoo!! That would be the time for nearly 3/4s of all the races for me.

There's always someone with a better tale of woe...

[wedge]

Long stratghts followed by high speed corner= no passing opportunity. Not that I don't love such a corner. I'd like seeing a configuration that continued the straight to turn 15 and see then take 15-18 at much higher speed. IT's still a friggin awesome track.

Not really.

Bathurst has the Caltex Chase. Suzuka's 130R - Chicane is a similar concept: high speed entry/phase - short chute - lower speed section.

I've always wondered how a Signes and the corner after it could work with 'modern' F1.

But yes, the current section is Mickey Mouse in its execution and no natural flow.

[zako85]

Have I missed something? Is Massa having a gearbox change?

The driver championship chances do look very good for Vettel. However, after a long unpredictable season, I wouldn't make a claim that WDC is a done deal for him yet. I am guessing that most likely, he will increase his points lead over Alonso, but not to extent to win the WDC tomorrow. And then it will be down to whether Vettel's RBR car can run reliably in Brazil to finish the race and collect the points necessary for his win.


I am betting that we will see a podium for Kimi tomorrow.

[truefan72]

Only one little grizzle - I surely won't be getting out of bed at 0500 tomorrow morning to watch. Stupid, stupid timing for southern hemisphere fans. I mean, qualifying wasnt on until 0400 this morning! Only the fanatical and the insomniacs get up to watch telly at that time.

Ok, grizzle done. Carry on.

dude,

most of the races I watch here in the US throughout the season are very early in the morning, not to mention FP1, FP3's
i've gotten used to it and sorta like it now. I watch the races and have the rest of my day freed up

[Zico]

Imagine what he will do next year with the Merc !That could be interesting next year !
Does he push Vettel hard untill tyre change,or does he try to have Vettel on the first lap?


Maybe you know something I dont, what is it that makes you think Merc will have a more competative car next year than McLaren have had this year?

[driveace]

Maybe you know something I dont, what is it that makes you think Merc will have a more competative car next year than McLaren have had this year?
Are you thinking that the Merc is going to be so un competetive next year that Lewis is going to look a fool ? Merc is bigger than Red Bull in world sales I would think,Hamilton is getting paid twice as much as Vettel,and Merc need to perform! Maybe Ross will move aside and we may see someone with more drive in his place,but i really do not think that Lewis will be out before Quali 3 in next years qualifying,or that he will regret his decision to move ,and it took RB 5 years to get to where they are now .
Are McLaren ultra reliable ? Mistakes galore,and mechanical failure sujest they have to get rid of Sam Michael,as since he came on board the lucks gone out the back door !

[F1boat]

I watched the qualifying, it was very entertaining with a great duel between Seb and Lewis, hats off to them. Red Bull did a very good job and look good for tomorrow. McLaren seems to has the pace to respond, but as we saw with Jenson reliability is still a big issue. Lotus was a pleasant surprise and who knows, Kimi might get a 2nd win in a row. I am very happy for Michael Schumacher, he did very well. Alonso on the other hand seems quite rattled and was comfortably out-qualified from Felipe. We have to see what happens in the race - it will be very interesting and the track seems challenging.

[Zico]

Are you thinking that the Merc is going to be so un competetive next year that Lewis is going to look a fool ? Merc is bigger than Red Bull in world sales I would think,Hamilton is getting paid twice as much as Vettel,and Merc need to perform! Maybe Ross will move aside and we may see someone with more drive in his place,but i really do not think that Lewis will be out before Quali 3 in next years qualifying,or that he will regret his decision to move ,and it took RB 5 years to get to where they are now .
Are McLaren ultra reliable ? Mistakes galore,and mechanical failure sujest they have to get rid of Sam Michael,as since he came on board the lucks gone out the back door !

I see it as a huge gamble on Lewis's part and I honestly dont know the answer. I just wondered what it was that made you so positive about the move.
To give Lewis a shot at WDC next year they will have to build a car that vs the RB, at least has the pace of this years McLaren but is reliable and with fewer team mistakes. I agree that Merc is a huge brand etc and that they need to perform but has that really been any different in previous years? Will (arguably) the quickest driver on the grid be enough to make the difference?

I'm not so sure but I wish I shared your optimism.

[JasonPotato]

Lewis just needs to dive down the inside on the first lap (if hes close enough) and Vettel will let him past seen as he knows he must finish the race. Although i hope he gets some misfortune so it take the title to Brazil.

[zako85]

I see it as a huge gamble on Lewis's part and I honestly dont know the answer. I just wondered what it was that made you so positive about the move.

....

I'm not so sure but I wish I shared your optimism.

Lewis was probably fed up with everything that happened at McLaren this year, but I also can't see as of now what makes Mercedes better. If I remember correctly, this year Mercedes pit crews also made errors, and the cars were plagued by reliability issues as well. The parent Mercedes company may be rich, yet things have gotten so bad for their F1 team that it is being beaten by Renault's orphaned team Lotus that owes money for Renault engines and this year gets nothing from its "title sponsor" Lotus cars, who itself is basically broke. Heck, even Sauber can still overtake Mercedes.

[Bagwan]

Judging from the fact they look like slipping down the ranks this year , it looks to me like all focus is now , and has been for a while , on next year's car .

[TMorel]

zako85
Maybe Lewis isn't thinking of what makes Mercedes better, but rather what is stopping McLaren from learning from its mistakes.

[donKey jote]

With Grosjean getting a 5 place drop putting Alonso on the dirty side, is it worth them giving Massa a "gearbox change" to bump Fred up and over onto the clean side of the grid or just hope for the best.
Apparently they're considering it, as they reckon you can lose up to 5 places on the wrong side of the grid...
Ferrari valora sustituir la caja de cambios de Massa - MARCA.com (http://www.marca.com/2012/11/18/motor/formula1/1353250539.html)

[pino]

Apparently they're considering it, as they reckon you can lose up to 5 places on the wrong side of the grid...
Ferrari valora sustituir la caja de cambios de Massa - MARCA.com (http://www.marca.com/2012/11/18/motor/formula1/1353250539.html)

This has also been confirmed by Autosprint.it ;)

[Dave B]

With Grosjean getting a 5 place drop putting Alonso on the dirty side, is it worth them giving Massa a "gearbox change" to bump Fred up and over onto the clean side of the grid or just hope for the best.
Yes, it seems :s

Yet again Ferrari are taking their fans for mugs and treating the spectators with contempt by blatantly inventing a phantom penalty for Massa. I hope Alonso's gearbox fails in the race - that would be karma.

[truefan72]

Apparently they're considering it, as they reckon you can lose up to 5 places on the wrong side of the grid...
Ferrari valora sustituir la caja de cambios de Massa - MARCA.com (http://www.marca.com/2012/11/18/motor/formula1/1353250539.html)


This has also been confirmed by Autosprint.it ;)

if this would happen it would be a travesty

there are team orders, and then there is race manipulation with a very very murky ethical and sporting influence
Its bad enough one has to endure team orders during the race, but to try and deliberately change the starting grid to suit a driver lower down is really beyond the line.
Remember, that unlike an in-race team order to let your #1 pass your #2 or to hold station, doing what they are thinking of doing would affect all those 5 cars below him and put 3 of them on the dirty side.
i am 100% against this. It will set a bad precedent and open the door for all kinds of direct manipulation by teams. The terrible ramifications are too many.

[ArrowsFA1]

To their dubious credit Ferrari are being entirely open about what they have done. They are maximising Alonso's chances by sacrificing Massa, but surely the FIA are entitled to take a close look at that gearbox and any data that says there is a problem, if it exists.

If, rather than penalising the driver, loss of constructors points were the penalty for such issues then maybe teams wouldn't have the opportunity to manipulate the sport in this way.

[nigelred5]

if this would happen it would be a travesty

there are team orders, and then there is race manipulation with a very very murky ethical and sporting influence
Its bad enough one has to endure team orders during the race, but to try and deliberately change the starting grid to suit a driver lower down is really beyond the line.
Remember, that unlike an in-race team order to let your #1 pass your #2 or to hold station, doing what they are thinking of doing would affect all those 5 cars below him and put 3 of them on the dirty side.
i am 100% against this. It will set a bad precedent and open the door for all kinds of direct manipulation by teams. The terrible ramifications are too many.


I felt allowing Vettel to start from the pit lane rather than forcing him to take the last spot on the grid was pure manipulation, but it's purely legal. By allowing him to start from the pit lane he avoided all perils of the grid start the rest of the field is forced to risk.

People make far too much about team orders. They exist, they are out there in the open and everyone knows it, from Bernie and Jean Todt down to the last tire changer in pit lane. Everyone knows Ferrari's number one goal at this point is Alonzo winning the WDC..

BTW, I hate the whole parc-ferme rules with a passion.

[truefan72]

To their dubious credit Ferrari are being entirely open about what they have done. They are maximising Alonso's chances by sacrificing Massa, but surely the FIA are entitled to take a close look at that gearbox and any data that says there is a problem, if it exists.

If, rather than penalising the driver, loss of constructors points were the penalty for such issues then maybe teams wouldn't have the opportunity to manipulate the sport in this way.

I just read on Autosport that they went ahead with this folly
...and just like that, whatever respect I had for ferrari has gone out the window
this is even worse than in the schumi days
yeah, massa may have retained his seat for next year, but IMO is the laughing stock of the entire grid
no point in out-qualifying Alonso, no point in racing for a win, i mean, why even try?

btw this strategy may ultimately cost them 2nd place in the WCC

[ArrowsFA1]

@SkySportsMike: Official confirmation through: 'Fact - An FIA Seal on the gearbox of Car 6 has been damaged...
https://twitter.com/skysportsmike/status/270223553490743296

[Dave B]

if this would happen it would be a travesty

there are team orders, and then there is race manipulation with a very very murky ethical and sporting influence
Its bad enough one has to endure team orders during the race, but to try and deliberately change the starting grid to suit a driver lower down is really beyond the line.
Remember, that unlike an in-race team order to let your #1 pass your #2 or to hold station, doing what they are thinking of doing would affect all those 5 cars below him and put 3 of them on the dirty side.
i am 100% against this. It will set a bad precedent and open the door for all kinds of direct manipulation by teams. The terrible ramifications are too many.

Amen. Team orders where one driver fulfils the terms of a contract which he agreed to are one thing (I still don't like it, but hey); deliberately manipulating the grid in a way which interferes with other drivers and teams crosses a line. It's legal, but it stinks.

Alonso is reinforcing his reputation as a driver who struggles to win fairly, and it's a shame because he's clearly brilliant - one of the best in fact. He spits his dummy when his team mate is faster than him, he whines like a baby when he doesn't get his own way, and he refused point blank to acknowledge that his Singapore win was tainted even though his sleazeball of a boss ordered his team mate to deliberately crash - one of the most unsporting and sickening incidents I've ever witness in any sport.

Ferrari can go to hell as far as I'm concerned. They're treating the fans like mugs. It beats me why Massa would want to drive for this cynical bunch.

[donKey jote]

my oh my... big brock is throwing an ioan :eek: :crazy: :laugh: :p

[N. Jones]

Hold on a second....I am coming in after this story started making the rounds.

What happened, exactly?

[donKey jote]

Ferrari read TMorel's post and sacrificed Massa so Alonso can start on the clean side of the grid.

[TMorel]

Can any blame be put on the track owners / FIA / The Grease Fairy for making such huge (alleged) difference. There's always been a preferred side (think back to Prost / Senna in Japan '90?) but if Horner is even admitting there's a difference then blimey it must be a massive disadvantage today. Any lessons for the future to be learned on the physical grid Tarmac as opposed to the sporting regulations?

[donKey jote]

BBC Sport - US GP: Ferrari admit to deliberate Massa penalty to aid Alonso (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20386671)


Engineers believe that those on the dirty, even-numbered, side of the grid will lose two positions at the start.

The new Circuit of the Americas is very slippery off the racing line. Massa did a practice start from the even-numbered side of the grid on Saturday after qualifying and said there was less grip than would be in wet conditions.

[N. Jones]

Ah, okay. Thanks.

A dirty move but it's legal. Alonso still has to pass Vettel and I don't see that happening

[Dave B]

my oh my... big brock is throwing an ioan :eek: :crazy: :laugh: :p
Blah blah never watching again blah blah worst sport ever blah blah toys out of pram :p

[truefan72]

errr...pit hamilton now please while he still has a gap to p4 car
wtf?

[christophulus]

It's a legal move so I don't understand the backlash. Massa has nothing whatsoever to play for, thanks to his mediocre season up to now, whereas Alonso is still in with a shout of the championship. I strongly suspect any other team would have done the same thing.

For once, and I feel quite dirty saying this, Ferrari have done the right thing.

[nigelred5]

Can any blame be put on the track owners / FIA / The Grease Fairy for making such huge (alleged) difference. There's always been a preferred side (think back to Prost / Senna in Japan '90?) but if Horner is even admitting there's a difference then blimey it must be a massive disadvantage today. Any lessons for the future to be learned on the physical grid Tarmac as opposed to the sporting regulations?

The FIA and Tilke were on site throughout the final paving and managed the quality of the surface. Pirelli just brought too hard of a tire and the front straight simply isn't going to have much running off line on the grid. IIRC, traction at Korea was crap year one as well. Before thursday there had been what? 20 demonstration laps by the Renault, Mario's lotus and a couple sportscars...and wven that running is in and out of the pits. By next november there will have been thousands of miles run on the track by two sports car weekends, V8 supercars and motorcycles and that's before we even see what kind of events and track use it sees from other events.

[nigelred5]

Go hamilton!!!!

[truefan72]

lol
vettel tries to block hamilton
hamilton overtakes him anyway
and then vettel complains on the radio
spoiled brat!

[pino]

Well done Lewis !!! :D

[JasonPotato]

He just loves moaning when things aren't going his way. Too much time at the top me thinks. Great job by Lewis and Ferrari have pulled it out of the hat if the positions stay the same.

[BDunnell]

It's a legal move so I don't understand the backlash. Massa has nothing whatsoever to play for, thanks to his mediocre season up to now, whereas Alonso is still in with a shout of the championship. I strongly suspect any other team would have done the same thing.

For once, and I feel quite dirty saying this, Ferrari have done the right thing.

Exactly. Team orders of one kind or another are nothing new, and certainly represent no reason to be shocked.

[andyone]

lol
vettel tries to block hamilton
hamilton overtakes him anyway
and then vettel complains on the radio
spoiled brat!
lol tell me about it. Vettel likes to complain all the time

[ArrowsFA1]

Great race for the lead. Hamilton driving at his very best. Vettel doesn't look like he's going to settle for second.

On the subject of a third title for Seb it's interesting to note that he's in his 100th GP and JYS won three titles in 99 races which was his whole F1 career. Just a thought...

[nigelred5]

I can't wait to hear post race driver comments about the track. FANTASTIC race.

[BDunnell]

On the subject of a third title for Seb it's interesting to note that he's in his 100th GP and JYS won three titles in 99 races which was his whole F1 career. Just a thought...

And at a time when one was lucky to survive for 99 F1 races, too. Small wonder some of us, while agreeing with the view that different eras cannot be compared, view the achievements notched up in days gone by on a somewhat higher pedestal.

[F1boat]

I am very disappointed with the outcome of the race, although Lewis and Seb had a great duel. The only solace for me is that Seb was in front of Alonso.
Congrats to all McLaren fans - after all the crappy races finally a great win.

[Big Ben]

It's a legal move so I don't understand the backlash. Massa has nothing whatsoever to play for, thanks to his mediocre season up to now, whereas Alonso is still in with a shout of the championship. I strongly suspect any other team would have done the same thing.

For once, and I feel quite dirty saying this, Ferrari have done the right thing.

fanboys...

[JasonPotato]

Must say they have done a brilliant job with the track, will look forward to returning next year. Good race all round.

[nigelred5]

fanboys...

fanboys, haters, noone'e ever happy. Would have been the same reaction if roles had been reversed.

[BDunnell]

fanboys...

I'm nothing of the sort, and while I'd rather not see such things go on, I can't see how it can be regulated against.

[Dave B]

Exactly. Team orders of one kind or another are nothing new, and certainly represent no reason to be shocked.
Team orders, that's fine. My problem with Ferrari's actions is that they affect other teams. Hey ho.

[donKey jote]

nice touch with the hats :laugh:

[truefan72]

I am very pleased with the race
Fantastic result by Hamilton, well deserved

now classes RBR trying to blame backmarkers for hamiltons win from Horner
so classesless by driver and team principle

[truefan72]

nice touch with the hats :laugh:

yes it was
hee haw!

[truefan72]

Team orders, that's fine. My problem with Ferrari's actions is that they affect other teams. Hey ho.

that was my main issue as well
but quietly I'm pleased that the championship continues
Hamilton did his bit for that as well

[truefan72]

btw, the track and race was more lively than I expected
folks were saying it was going to be tough to overtake, but it turned out to be plenty
so :up: for COTA

[F1boat]

The hats are cool and it is great to see Mario :)

[Big Ben]

Team orders, that's fine. My problem with Ferrari's actions is that they affect other teams. Hey ho.

What would be the point of them if they didn't affect other teams :laugh: God! ...the stupid things one can read sometimes... :rolleyes:

[Dave B]

What would be the point of them if they didn't affect other teams :laugh: God! ...the stupid things one can read sometimes... :rolleyes:
If you [read Massa] sign a contract that says you must always take a bullet for your team mate then that's your lookout, but it's not cricket that by helping their golden wonder Ferrari mess with the plans of those around them on the grid. If I'm stupid for expecting teams to behave in a vaguely sportsmanlike way, then guilty as charged.

[Dave B]

Did Lewis just put on a slightly American accent in his podium interview? :s

[truefan72]

What would be the point of them if they didn't affect other teams :laugh: God! ...the stupid things one can read sometimes... :rolleyes:

of course your oversimplified reasoning speaks volumes about yourself and less about the forum, and ironically, your last post actually qualifies for your own criticism
:|

[nigelred5]

What would be the point of them if they didn't affect other teams :laugh: God! ...the stupid things one can read sometimes... :rolleyes:

Exactly, Who else would team orders be affecting. This wasn't Rubens conceding a win last corner.

[nigelred5]

Did Lewis just put on a slightly American accent in his podium interview? :s

We're apparently about 30 sec to a minute behind Real time on speedchannel

[Dave B]

BTW apparently 120,000 people at the track today. Superb effort from the race promoters, [10 gallon] hats off to them :up:

[christophulus]

Sounded like an epic race, might just stay up and watch the highlights! Hopefully this isn't a one off and we finally get a worthy addition to the calendar.

Can't fault the support at the track but I'd be fascinated to see how many TV viewers they got. F1 put on a show for once so let's see what impact that had on the audience.

[Big Ben]

of course your oversimplified reasoning speaks volumes about yourself and less about the forum, and ironically, your last post actually qualifies for your own criticism
:|

give me a break. I don't have time for this. I'm re-reading some really funny things on the will mclaren support hamilton now thread

[truefan72]

Exactly, Who else would team orders be affecting. This wasn't Rubens conceding a win last corner.

it was just as bad imo
a team order during the race only either involves a switch of places which only affects the one team, or holding station which only affects the one team
but a deliberate grid place penalty that shifts drivers to the dirty side of the track and the resulting outcome is seriously affecting those 3 drivers that had to shift grid spots is a whole other matter
why you folks find that so hard to understand is baffling.

[A FONDO]

Wonderful race with tough battles everywhere on the track from the start to the finish! The circuit is pretty amazing although the cameras were not positioned properly to reveal its full character! I'm really looking forward to the next race in Austin!

[DexDexter]

A fantastic race and crowd! It seems F1 finally has a proper home in the US.

[dj_bytedisaster]

it was just as bad imo
a team order during the race only either involves a switch of places which only affects the one team, or holding station which only affects the one team
but a deliberate grid place penalty that shifts drivers to the dirty side of the track and the resulting outcome is seriously affecting those 3 drivers that had to shift grid spots is a whole other matter
why you folks find that so hard to understand is baffling.

It was a dodgy move, but within the rules and although I don't like it, I was pleasantly surprised that Ferrari were absolutely open about it. Alonso's pace - or lack thereof showed that based on their car they don't have a chance to win the title on the track, so it's only natural that they try every dirty trick in the book. As long as it is within the rules, I'm ok with it, even if I don't like it. After all, the alternative would have been to watch Vettel seal the deal in Austin already.

[nigelred5]

it was just as bad imo
a team order during the race only either involves a switch of places which only affects the one team, or holding station which only affects the one team
but a deliberate grid place penalty that shifts drivers to the dirty side of the track and the resulting outcome is seriously affecting those 3 drivers that had to shift grid spots is a whole other matter
why you folks find that so hard to understand is baffling.

I have zero problem understanding your objections to it. What you are haveing a problem with is it doesn't bother us! Would it make you feel better if Filipe ACTUALLY HAD a gearbox problem that they had to change? ;) How would the result have been any different? How did the drivers feel that qualified behind Grosjean and were put on the dirty side because of his change andsubsequent penalty. Fernando actually qualified in 9th, which would have put him on the clean side. Grosjeans penalty put him on the dirty side.
Dem's da breaks.

[The Black Knight]

I was delighted that we finally got treated to a Seb vs Hamilton flat out battle throughout the entire race. I felt robbed in Singapore. It was fantastic to witness that quality driving today. Two of the best drivers in the world on the limit for 56 laps was tremendous. A storming race by both of them. It was good to see that Massa put in a very good performance as well.

Delighted for Lewis - he deserved this after the team have messed up so many times throughout the season.

[truefan72]

I was delighted that we finally got treated to a Seb vs Hamilton flat out battle throughout the entire race. I felt robbed in Singapore. It was fantastic to witness that quality driving today. Two of the best drivers in the world on the limit for 56 laps was tremendous. A storming race by both of them. It was good to see that Massa put in a very good performance as well.

Delighted for Lewis - he deserved this after the team have messed up so many times throughout the season.

indeed
the both of them were 40 seconds clear of 3rd place man alonso
both were in a different league today.

[truefan72]

watching the sky postrace

man RBR are crybabies and too arrogant
everyone is blaming the HRT for Hamilton winning the race
even Newey, jeez
nevermind that throughout the entire race Hamilton had been closing the gap on seb at every instance and was poised to overtake him anyway
they can never be gracious, not at anytime, not even when interviewed about winning a 3rd straight WDC
classless

[dj_bytedisaster]

watching the sky postrace

man RBR are crybabies and too arrogant
everyone is blaming the HRT for Hamilton winning the race
even Newey, jeez
nevermind that throughout the entire race Hamilton had been closing the gap on seb at every instance and was poised to overtake him anyway
they can never be gracious, not at anytime, not even when interviewed about winning a 3rd straight WDC
classless

Are you trying to stand in for Garry?
Vettel and Hamilton were pretty much on equal speed, so Hamilton needed to get into the DRS window, which he failed at for most of the day. Only when VET got caught behind Slowpoke Rodriguez shortly before the DRS detection, he came close, got a clear run, but never managed to get truly away from Vettel. McLaren would have complained just the same if the roles were reversed.

[AndyL]

Something Crofty mentioned in the Sky commentary - this was the first time Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso have all stood on the podium together. Quite remarkable given that between them they've won around 180 trophies.

Interesting to hear Alonso after the race, observing how it's so often Webber's Red Bull that suffers the reliability problems... and maybe it will be the other car in Brazil!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Interesting to hear Alonso after the race, observing how it's so often Webber's Red Bull that suffers the reliability problems... and maybe it will be the other car in Brazil!

Alonso seems to have a short memory, considering that it was Vettel, who had two alternator failures already this year. I must admit that I lost quite a bit of respect for Alonso lately. There's nothing wrong with his driving, but the endless trash talking is really getting tiresome.

[BDunnell]

I'm left very cold by the track, I must say. The same is true of every new circuit introduced since, I think, Melbourne. It may be a venue that renders possible good racing, but it just looks so characterless.

[Zico]

First and foremost, the WDC championship is still alive... fanatstic race today, far better than I could have imagined, brilliant. Lewis was outstanding among many great drives today and no Donkeys worth mentioning, a huge success and a fantastic F1 advert to the US.

Re- Ferrari team orders.. Not great for the sport but not their fault, I dont blame them one bit, I think any of the teams on the grid would have done it tbh.

Something Donkey mentioned in Bagwans track rubbering in thread about race organisers scrubbing up the dirty side of the track off the start line- good call, especially today at this track. Its seems grossly unfair in a WDC fight that if your qualifying position is an odd number you are disadvantaged to the extent that one place back would actually be preferable. It wouldn't be that difficult to acheive a level playing field.

[kfzmeister]

Just leaving Austin and heading back home (1000 mile drive :( ).

What an incredible track they've built. Downtown Austin was just as exciting last night. They've really nailed it.
Hamilton was on it all day and i'm so glad that he prevented Vettel from having a 20 point lead on Alonso.
All the Ferrari fans were cheering him on all race. And what a sourpuss face from Vettel after not winning. Lmao. Then he does that crap again on the podium by putting the hat on Mario's head. You do NOT mess with Andretti's hair. Lol
Looks like we've got ourselves a race in Brazil. Yeah boiiiiiii
The Boss was incredible today.

[Tazio]

What a great race, congrat's to Lewis on a fantastic win. He made his pass stick very close to our seats. Ferrari were nowhere but the championship is still alive.
I'd say this a fantastic facility but I don't really have anything to comapare it to.

[nigelred5]

I'm left very cold by the track, I must say. The same is true of every new circuit introduced since, I think, Melbourne. It may be a venue that renders possible good racing, but it just looks so characterless.

Well, that'S the Texas landscape for you. Its never going to be lavishly green and over the top with architecture. With all of F1's rules for runoff safety barriers amd the fact that it had to be built with ample runoff to host MotoGp next year, I think Tilke did a good job on the track. The rest was done by others. I agree the facilities are very plain looking but its not but to be a palace. Its a race track. At least it's a good track that promoted a lot of on track action. I'll take that over a billion dollar snoozer like Abu Dhabi.

[zako85]

Hats off to Ferrari and Alonso for keeping the championship alive all the way to the last race, even without having the fastest car.

[Storm]

Cynical tactics by Ferrari but I guess anyone who wanted to win a championship would have done the same. Alonso kept himself in the hunt through a great start and consistent race (mainly keeping his nose clean and hoping for the best - Hamilton helped too) Another great race to see for us fans. Really enjoyed it all the way.

Worst opening lap/corner shot on TV ever? Wtf was the director thinking showing the cars from the back?

[Hawkmoon]

Team orders, that's fine. My problem with Ferrari's actions is that they affect other teams. Hey ho.


that was my main issue as well
but quietly I'm pleased that the championship continues
Hamilton did his bit for that as well

Is really that different to the many times a driver who has qualified near the back has elected to start from the pitlane? That also affects other drivers but because it's at the back no one cares.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Is really that different to the many times a driver who has qualified near the back has elected to start from the pitlane? That also affects other drivers but because it's at the back no one cares.

Apples and Oranges, Sir. When a driver starts from the pitlane, he choses a deliberate disadvatage (last to start) which he hopes to make up for by being exempt from the Parc Ferme rules. What Ferrari did was deliberately manipulating the outcome of qualifying to bump Alonso to the 'correct' side of the grid. The cynical thing about it is that they gained an advantage at other peoples cost. For instance Hülkenberg was bumped to the dirty side. They opened a can of worms and I think we will see such manipulations more often in the future.

[pino]

So much double standard in here as usually. No matter what, Ferraris always wrong, while other team starting from RBR can do whatever please them...

:rolleyes:

[Dave B]

So much double standard in here as usually. No matter what, Ferraris always wrong, while other team starting from RBR can do whatever please them...

:rolleyes:

Apples and oranges again. Vettel's Red Bull actually needed some work doing on it, Ferrari just broke the seal on Massa's gearbox to deliberately invoke a penalty. I suspect that by next year the rule will be clarified so that a team needs to demonstrate the fault to the FIA's technical delegate.

[Dave B]

I have to say I wasn't massively blown away by the track. The uphill run to that amazing looking first corner failed to produce any action worthy of note; the Esses looked awesome and must have been phenomenal to drive, but didn't contribute to any real racing; and the DRS zone was far too long (the FIA's fault, not the track's).

Don't get me wrong, Austin is a great track by modern standards, but most of the action was courtesy of the interaction - or lack thereof - between the asphalt and the rubber.

[AndyL]

I'm left very cold by the track, I must say. The same is true of every new circuit introduced since, I think, Melbourne. It may be a venue that renders possible good racing, but it just looks so characterless.

I liked it. I think you could equally say Silverstone and some of the other traditional circuits look quite characterless. And at Silverstone, "left very cold" is literally how you feel when the wind gets up :)

[BDunnell]

I liked it. I think you could equally say Silverstone and some of the other traditional circuits look quite characterless. And at Silverstone, "left very cold" is literally how you feel when the wind gets up :)

But, even with the recent alterations, Silverstone doesn't look like a modern purpose-built facility. Austin may have some interesting corners, but is still every inch the 'Tilkedrome'.

[Malbec]

I have to say I wasn't massively blown away by the track. The uphill run to that amazing looking first corner failed to produce any action worthy of note; the Esses looked awesome and must have been phenomenal to drive, but didn't contribute to any real racing; and the DRS zone was far too long (the FIA's fault, not the track's).

Don't get me wrong, Austin is a great track by modern standards, but most of the action was courtesy of the interaction - or lack thereof - between the asphalt and the rubber.

I have to agree.

Much of that is probably because the track is so green and driving off-line is such a disadvantage because of the loss in grip, hopefully there will be plenty of other races over the year there so next time round the circuit will be properly rubbered in.

[Bagwan]

Apples and oranges again. Vettel's Red Bull actually needed some work doing on it, Ferrari just broke the seal on Massa's gearbox to deliberately invoke a penalty. I suspect that by next year the rule will be clarified so that a team needs to demonstrate the fault to the FIA's technical delegate.

Dave , your anger with Ferrari is mis-placed .
Be angry about the rule , not with the red team .

They , seeing an advantage to breaking the seal , did so , as it is entirely within the rules .

You may be right that they will seek proof that the gearbox has failed in some way for next year , but what fools would they be if they didn't take every advantage offered them ?

Massa hasn't had a great year , but he has just demonstrated he will take one for the team if they ask him .
There's honour in that , and it's just raised my opinion of him .

I think the fact that it was done so openly is to the team's credit .
They broke the seal , but didn't change the box .

[Bagwan]

I have to agree.

Much of that is probably because the track is so green and driving off-line is such a disadvantage because of the loss in grip, hopefully there will be plenty of other races over the year there so next time round the circuit will be properly rubbered in.

Yes folks , the bagwan-o-matic track dresser will take your new track into the rubber future , making first races as good as any down the road .
bagwan-o-matic.com , your grip on the future .

[Don Capps]

I really have not been paying all that much attention, but I still managed to catch parts of the race during the several times I tuned in on Sunday.

That the start funneled the field into a hairpin is a feature of nearly all the recent F1 tracks that never ceases to amaze me. Not sure what the point of the esses after that corner might be since they did not seem to add anything to the circuit except expense. Overall, seemed to be another ho-hum track for the most part, an inevitable result of the rules that dictate the layouts and rended them void of any actual character. At least it had elevation which was a novelty.

Still don't get the whole business with tires and the whole DRS things is a joke as well. The cars are as butt-ugly as ever, only being seriously challenged by the eyesores being used in the INDYCAR series.

Did not see much action on the track when I tuned in, but then again I did not watch that much of the race (total of maybe 20 minutes, 25-30 at the most) so obviously in no position to say much on that issue.

I had scarcely a clue as to whom anyone was, much less which car was which, only the color schemes seeming to be the difference given how much alike all the cars looked -- not that it helped much given how slow some seemed in comparison with those at the front.

Any interest I may have had in what is now F1 remains completely dormant. I am sure that people enjoy it, but I simply cannot get interested beyond a very minimal point. Probably more a factor of Ecclestone and the sterility of the whole thing. The off-track political cowpat fights are about the only truly entertaining part of the series. The whole gearbox thing is simply another reason as to the level of nonsense that F1 has stooped in its wanderings in the wilderness.

[pino]

Apples and oranges again. Vettel's Red Bull actually needed some work doing on it, Ferrari just broke the seal on Massa's gearbox to deliberately invoke a penalty. I suspect that by next year the rule will be clarified so that a team needs to demonstrate the fault to the FIA's technical delegate.

What work Dave ? Vettel's car didn't had any damage. Red Bull decided to start from the pit, in order to allow Vettel a single pit-stop so he could gain some advantage on Alonso. It was a great choice within the rules which gave Vettel a great podium. Ferrari knew that starting on the dirty side of the track would have given an huge disadvantage to Alonso. So they made a choice which is within the rules in order to give a better chance to Alonso. See ? Each Team did try their best in order to win the title. I don't see any difference between the two actions...what I see is your disliking for Alonso and Ferrari ;)

[The Black Knight]

What work Dave ? Vettel's car didn't had any damage. Red Bull decided to start from the pit, in order to allow Vettel a single pit-stop so he could gain some advantage on Alonso. It was a great choice within the rules which gave Vettel a great podium. Ferrari knew that starting on the dirty side of the track would have given an huge disadvantage to Alonso. So they made a choice which is within the rules in order to give a better chance to Alonso. See ? Each Team did try their best in order to win the title. I don't see any difference between the two actions...what I see is your disliking for Alonso and Ferrari ;)

The difference is Seb's teammate didn't have to take a hit for the team and Seb's benefit. I don't have an issue with what Ferrari did either. They did what was best for the team and, since it's a team sport, I see no issue with that. Inevitably there are always going to be some people that take umbrage with a decision some teams do but I don't think it matters too much and in the end of the day I can't see Alonso making up 13 points to Seb next week in Brazil so I don't think it will make much of a difference in the end. I hope Alonso does win as I feel he, along with Hamilton, have been the best drivers on the grid this year but it realistically needs a DNF from Seb and that's unlikely to happen.

[Wasted Talent]

The difference is Seb's teammate didn't have to take a hit for the team and Seb's benefit..

Agree with that bit, but Vettel starting form the pit-lane in Abu Dhabi didn't disadvantage anyone else, but the Massa "penalty" left Hulkenburg on the dirty side. See my post on Saturday to suggest that it might happen.

Bottom-line is Alonso and Ferrari fans think it is legal and fine, and everyone else might accept it is within the regs but don't think it sporting, and yet again Ferrari has asked their number two driver to take one for the team.

Obviously Massa is being well paid to play that role, but he has never been allowed to race Alonso, championship or not, whereas Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Lotus etc have all allowed battles within the team

WT

[SGWilko]

Agree with that bit, but Vettel starting form the pit-lane in Abu Dhabi didn't disadvantage anyone else, but the Massa "penalty" left Hulkenburg on the dirty side. See my post on Saturday to suggest that it might happen.

Bottom-line is Alonso and Ferrari fans think it is legal and fine, and everyone else might accept it is within the regs but don't think it sporting, and yet again Ferrari has asked their number two driver to take one for the team.

Obviously Massa is being well paid to play that role, but he has never been allowed to race Alonso, championship or not, whereas Red Bull, McLaren, Williams, Lotus etc have all allowed battles within the team

WT

As a McLaren fan (despite spygate) Ferrari is the traditional enemy.

However, I didn't have a problem with them taking whatever possible advantage they can get.

I personally think - despite not liking the guy -that Alonso is the more deserving of the 2012 title.

[jarrambide]

As much as I dislike Hamilton when he talks, it is impossible to dislike him as a driver when he drives like this, did HRT helped him?, well, traffic is always a factor.

I was very impressed with the organization, I was expecting a lot of 1st year problems, did not see them, I was afraid that with so many of us using the shuttles to the 2 park and ride lots (just a little fraction had access to the on site lots), it would take hours of waiting in line Sunday, not a problem, I liked the ammenities, I even got Senna's and Maldonado's signatures on my Williams cap.

Austin's downtown festivities, also great.

The comments on the track being characterless, I have realized since moving to Texas 6 years ago, that most Texans are either very minimalists, or they go way over the top, I am happy Austin went the minimalist way, you don't want to see the track with hundreds of Lone Star Stars, horns, laureates, and cowboy hats with flashy colors, and lots of towers just for the sake of having towers.


On track passing, one of them for first place, always a plus in F1.

[BDunnell]

The comments on the track being characterless, I have realized since moving to Texas 6 years ago, that most Texans are either very minimalists, or they go way over the top, I am happy Austin went the minimalist way, you don't want to see the track with hundreds of Lone Star Stars, horns, laureates, and cowboy hats with flashy colors, and lots of towers just for the sake of having towers.

I don't think it was characterless for any local reasons, but rather because this is how pretty much every new track looks nowadays. It could have been anywhere.

[gloomyDAY]

I don't think it was characterless for any local reasons, but rather because this is how pretty much every new track looks nowadays. It could have been anywhere.Well, damnit, what would add 'character' to COTA?

[Bagwan]

Well, damnit, what would add 'character' to COTA?

Line the outside of the track with saguaro cacti .
Use cowboy hat bollards to mark track limits .
Add diamond back rattlers to gravel traps .
Any addition grandstands should be haybale .
And , of course , national anthems played on banjo .

And , beyond that , they might think of planting a tree or two .

[wedge]

Apples and oranges again. Vettel's Red Bull actually needed some work doing on it, Ferrari just broke the seal on Massa's gearbox to deliberately invoke a penalty. I suspect that by next year the rule will be clarified so that a team needs to demonstrate the fault to the FIA's technical delegate.

I don't find it malcious at all.

Team orders is part of motorsports and its particularly nice being on the recieving end.

It is not all that much different to Fangio's era. He was WDC by jumping into a team mate's car and yet Fangio is regarded as one of/the GOAT.

[wedge]

Don't get me wrong, Austin is a great track by modern standards, but most of the action was courtesy of the interaction - or lack thereof - between the asphalt and the rubber.

And that's a bad thing in an era of joke tyres and DRS?

[DexDexter]

And that's a bad thing in an era of joke tyres and DRS?
I and many others love those joke tyres. Bring them back, these normal tires are boring! :)

[wedge]

I don't think it was characterless for any local reasons, but rather because this is how pretty much every new track looks nowadays. It could have been anywhere.

Modern safety standards, bureaucracy and the 'build it and they will come' syndrome - no disrespect to American spectators , just Tilkedromes in general but apart from ovals there is something wrong with modern circuits relying on masses of grandstands.

[Wasted Talent]

Well I thought it was an excellent track. The drivers did, which is far more important....

WT

[Nem14]

Bottom line - The facility was completed in time, the race weekend was a success, and F1 in America now has a new home.

No doubt, attendance for years 2 and 3 will tell a more complete tale.

[ArrowsFA1]

Team orders is part of motorsports and its particularly nice being on the recieving end.
So there would have been no complaints if Red Bull, having got wind of the fact Ferrari had broken the seal on Massa's gearbox, did the same to Webber's thus putting Alonso back onto the dirty side of the grid?

[SGWilko]

So there would have been no complaints if Red Bull, having got wind of the fact Ferrari had broken the seal on Massa's gearbox, did the same to Webber's thus putting Alonso back onto the dirty side of the grid?

Well, that would then put Fernando closer to the front - two spots closer in fact than he qualified. Despite the less grippy side of the track, he's negated the anticipated 8 metre deficit.

I don't think I'd be upset with that if Red Bull did it - a bit of mischievous tit for tat. However, Red Bull would risk to lose more than they gain, as Mark can play a key defensive role ahead of the Ferrari's (alternators and KERS reliability allowing!!! :p )

All is fair in love and F1 after all! :D

[SGWilko]

the new home of Formula One.

In the USA it is. A great track. Despite Pirelli's understandable conservatism, there was good racing. The undulations looked impressive in HD, aided by the great shots from the helicopter - probably pilot by howling mad Murdoch!!! ;)

I was seething with the disrespect MB showed DC, that was just crass. :down:

[Tazio]

.....

[Tazio]

Mmmmmmm , V10 !
Can't wait to see those pics , Taz .Just got home and I haven't had a chance to sort through all my pics but here is a little tease:

http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/59130_373782139376899_815507509_n.jpg


http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/302742_373784969376616_930272892_n.jpg


We have two 3-seaters, modeled on the 2003-2004 Jordan GP chassis. With Judd V10 engines producing over 750 HP drivers can reach speeds of up to 200 MPH and can accelerate from 0 to 100kph in 1.8 seconds. The car weighs only 640 kg, and is equipped with carbon brakes and Pirelli tires. The cars will be driven by experienced and certified professional drivers.
About Our 3-seater and Conquest Racing (http://formulagpexperience.com/3seat.php)

..and for us Hamiltonians..........."The Boss" ;)

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/601362_373794396042340_1549383014_n.jpg

[Don Capps]

Well I thought it was an excellent track. The drivers did, which is far more important....

WT

But, do you or the drivers know anything different? This sort of sterile, basically anonymous is all the drivers have known, so of course they "like" it.

[AndyL]

But, do you or the drivers know anything different? This sort of sterile, basically anonymous is all the drivers have known, so of course they "like" it.

Wouldn't you call places like Monaco, Spa, Monza and Suzuka "characterful" circuits? If not then I'm sure most drivers will have spent time at equally interesting places in lower formulae.

I think the drivers are more interested in the layout of the corners than the architecture and decor.

[BDunnell]

I think Austin was a good venue, but like any other new track it doesn't just become equal to the older tracks steeped in history just like that.

And it never will, because every view around the circuit screams 'modern purpose-built racing venue' in a way that the likes of Spa, Albert Park, Monza and Silverstone, even after recent alterations, do not.

[SGWilko]

And it never will, because every view around the circuit screams 'modern purpose-built racing venue' in a way that the likes of Spa, Albert Park, Monza and Silverstone, even after recent alterations, do not.

How do you make a modern 'purpose built' track look like the classics? Use a sepia lense on the camera???

We stopped visiting some classics because they were dangerous - Imola and the old Hockenheim spring to mind. We also left Adelaide because Bernie couldn't squeeze any more money out of them.....

[wedge]

So there would have been no complaints if Red Bull, having got wind of the fact Ferrari had broken the seal on Massa's gearbox, did the same to Webber's thus putting Alonso back onto the dirty side of the grid?

Me, personally no. Perhaps the heat of the moment grumble. Taking the p--- out of the rules is part and parcel of sport.


But, do you or the drivers know anything different? This sort of sterile, basically anonymous is all the drivers have known, so of course they "like" it.

Monaco is rated but there are fans who think it's a Mickey Mouse track that produces boring races, Bahrain is slated for being a Tilkedrome by fans yet the drivers love it and then you get a track like the old Hockenheim that had character and was loved by fans but a lot of drivers hated it because it was point-and-squirt for the majority of the way round.


And it never will, because every view around the circuit screams 'modern purpose-built racing venue' in a way that the likes of Spa, Albert Park, Monza and Silverstone, even after recent alterations, do not.

Silverstone is heading that way. I find it soul destroying walking around the grandstands Woodcote-Copse; the Wing is a gimmick reason to give Bernie an erection over Silverstone; the 'Fan Zone' is an utter joke.

Spa is now a bespoke track. No longer links off to the outlying rounds.

But then I seem to remember Nigel Roebuck criticising the likes of Magny Cours and Barcelona for being sleek, modern and soulless facilities.

[Ranger]

We also left Adelaide because Bernie couldn't squeeze any more money out of them.....

On that note, there are some early talks for a 2016 Australian GP in Adelaide. (http://anygivenreason.com/2012/10/11/is-formula-1-coming-back-to-adelaide/)

Unlikely, but one can hope.

[BDunnell]

How do you make a modern 'purpose built' track look like the classics? Use a sepia lense on the camera???

We stopped visiting some classics because they were dangerous - Imola and the old Hockenheim spring to mind. We also left Adelaide because Bernie couldn't squeeze any more money out of them.....

Well, clearly you can't, but this isn't reason enough not to state that Austin and its ilk look bland.

[BDunnell]

Silverstone is heading that way. I find it soul destroying walking around the grandstands Woodcote-Copse; the Wing is a gimmick reason to give Bernie an erection over Silverstone; the 'Fan Zone' is an utter joke.

Spa is now a bespoke track. No longer links off to the outlying rounds.

I very much see your point about Silverstone, but at least you can watch the cars on significant parts of the track and make a visual connection with how it used to be. The same goes for Spa, but much more so. It's all in the setting.

[SGWilko]

Well, clearly you can't, but this isn't reason enough not to state that Austin and its ilk look bland.

Surely, it is how it is to drive, as that is the pupose of a racetrack track is it not?

If you want a view, take the cable car up to Monte Baldo and look down on Lago di Garda........

[SGWilko]

I very much see your point about Silverstone, but at least you can watch the cars on significant parts of the track and make a visual connection with how it used to be. The same goes for Spa, but much more so. It's all in the setting.

It used to be an airfield. The track had 5 corners and was quick - but what else? How exciting.

East Fortune used to be an airfiled, now it's a museum.

[wedge]

I very much see your point about Silverstone, but at least you can watch the cars on significant parts of the track and make a visual connection with how it used to be. The same goes for Spa, but much more so. It's all in the setting.

I've been going for years and it always felt bland. Don't ask me why!

Spa has become a notch gloomy with no more road markings and modern safety has meant that if you were blinkered to history you wouldn't think it was a proper road course a la Le Mans.

[BDunnell]

Surely, it is how it is to drive, as that is the pupose of a racetrack track is it not?

If you want a view, take the cable car up to Monte Baldo and look down on Lago di Garda........

If everyone took your view, no-one would ever comment on, for example, how a town looked. After all, it's just a place in which to live, isn't it?

[BDunnell]

It used to be an airfield. The track had 5 corners and was quick - but what else? How exciting.

Its very speed was what made it exciting.



East Fortune used to be an airfiled, now it's a museum.

As a writer on aviation I am well aware of this and Silverstone's origins, thank you very much.

[SGWilko]

If everyone took your view, no-one would ever comment on, for example, how a town looked. After all, it's just a place in which to live, isn't it?

Milton Keynes maybe - but that is, in the grand scheme of things, new.

New Zealand as an example - no real architectural heritage. Grape vines are young too, but they produce a good wine.....

[BDunnell]

I've been going for years and it always felt bland. Don't ask me why!

I can well understand, but to me it's about the history.



Spa has become a notch gloomy with no more road markings and modern safety has meant that if you were blinkered to history you wouldn't think it was a proper road course a la Le Mans.

True, but the track's setting amongst dense forests is far more interesting and appealing than one where every vista is a bit of purpose-built racing facility.

[BDunnell]

Milton Keynes maybe - but that is, in the grand scheme of things, new.

New Zealand as an example - no real architectural heritage. Grape vines are young too, but they produce a good wine.....

The point you're trying to make is hardly a coherent one, I must say.

[SGWilko]

Its very speed was what made it exciting.



As a writer on aviation I am well aware of this and Silverstone's origins, thank you very much.

I write on paper personally - no need for steps.

[BDunnell]

I write on paper personally - no need for steps.

What great repartee.

[SGWilko]

The point you're trying to make is hardly a coherent one, I must say.

Is it not, dash darn it.

[SGWilko]

What great repartee.

You noticed?

[SGWilko]

I can well understand, but to me it's about the history.



True, but the track's setting amongst dense forests is far more interesting and appealing than one where every vista is a bit of purpose-built racing facility.

Wasn't that the downfall of the old Hockenheim - a real engine breaker.

The trees had a nasty habit of trapping spray.

Safety or aesthetics?

If the racing is good, I see (no pun intentionally intended) no reason to make notes on the scenery.

Like my mate that went to the North Pole - what did it look like I asked, was it spectacular?

It's all white I suppose came the response

[SGWilko]

Its very speed was what made it exciting.




So, the racing was good despite the bland surroundings?

Bit like Austin then?

[wedge]

I can well understand, but to me it's about the history.

True, but the track's setting amongst dense forests is far more interesting and appealing than one where every vista is a bit of purpose-built racing facility.

It's a bit difficult to build tracks in a middle of a forest these days.

Monza and Hockenheim have incurred the wrath of environ-mentalists.

[SGWilko]

It's a bit difficult to build tracks in a middle of a forest these days.

Monza and Hockenheim have incurred the wrath of environ-mentalists.

But if you could, wouldn't it look nice?

[SGWilko]

But if you could, wouldn't it look nice?

Especially in fall......

The sound and smell of leafblowers before every session.......

[Tazio]

Here are a few from the Historic F1 car race (better quality pcs to come:


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8345/8202759597_0db5915960_b.jpg



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8197/8203834746_5307c0bca7_b.jpg



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8063/8202734967_c2ab0facd9_b.jpg

[Tazio]

Here is Lewis making the pass stick:



http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8205/8202799647_1c9ecbca06_b.jpg

[nigelred5]

Wasn't that the downfall of the old Hockenheim - a real engine breaker.

The trees had a nasty habit of trapping spray.

Safety or aesthetics?

If the racing is good, I see (no pun intentionally intended) no reason to make notes on the scenery.

Like my mate that went to the North Pole - what did it look like I asked, was it spectacular?

It's all white I suppose came the response

Wait a minute... IIRC, Hockenheim was neutered because enviromentalists wanted the whole track shut down. It had nothing to do with driver and track safety. It was tree safety. The track was saved by agreeing to remove the segment in the forest and re-planting the tres, then Tilke went about his merry way of making the rest of it the equivalent of a rubber baby bumper lined kiddy playground.

[nigelred5]

Line the outside of the track with saguaro cacti .
Use cowboy hat bollards to mark track limits .
Add diamond back rattlers to gravel traps .
Any addition grandstands should be haybale .
And , of course , national anthems played on banjo .

And , beyond that , they might think of planting a tree or two .


Well, you have to consider the natural environment of where the track was built. Not a lot of natural trees springing up in the texas grassland. Did they even have to fell a single tree to build COTA?

[nigelred5]

Especially in fall......

The sound and smell of leafblowers before every session.......

the leaf blowers are there, in F! they call them pit lane brake ventilators or something rediculous like that.... just can't hear them for the engines.... ;)

Wedge has it right. Good land is expensive, land near any sort of population center multiplies that 10X, and anything actually scenic is scooped by developers or blocked by environmentalists or conservationists.

[Tazio]

Here are a few from the Historic F1 car race (better quality pcs to come):
Here are the same pics from my facebook account. I need too make a set on flickr and present the link properly :crazy:
http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/20291_373922212696225_1872986234_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/542962_373923289362784_909188298_n.jpg

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/378963_373922899362823_903014785_n.jpg

[steveaki13]

Bit late, but that was a brilliant Race. It was one of the best races of the season, we had it all.

A race of champions at the front, with two drivers on the limits and pushing themselves as far as possible. Evidence was the 35 second gap back to the rest.

Then we had the crazy, manic racing of early on in the midfield.

I also have to say although its early days, I love this track it is up there with Turkey & Malaysia of the Tilke Dromes.

Some fast sweeping curves a long straight and the tight twisty corners make for a great race today.

[truefan72]

I also have to say although its early days, I love this track it is up there with Turkey & Malaysia of the Tilke Dromes.

Some fast sweeping curves a long straight and the tight twisty corners make for a great race today.

agreed, I was prepared not to like the overwhelming "S"s which i thought were a bit much, and also thought that the 3rd sector was to stop and start, but I can't lie, it produced a great race and there were more than 2 overtaking spots .
I really like turn 1 as well, so the track gets a thumbs up

If I were to rank it it be pretty high and yes, one of the better tilke ones

for me
1. turkey
2. Malaysia
3. USA
4. China
last and dead last is the abomination called Hockenheim

[Don Capps]

Monaco is rated but there are fans who think it's a Mickey Mouse track that produces boring races....and then you get a track like the old Hockenheim that had character and was loved by fans but a lot of drivers hated it because it was point-and-squirt for the majority of the way round.

Silverstone is heading that way

Spa is now a bespoke track. No longer links off to the outlying rounds.

Except for 1957, I attended the races at Monaco from 1955 to 1960 and it was clear even then that any actual racing was almost completely accidental -- 1961 being an exception for the simple reason that there was actually something akin to racing on the track.

Hockenheim had many things, but I would be very hesitant to include "character" among them. Never much of a blip on my radar screen. It was, however, certainly not a cookie-cutter affair. The introduction of chicanes ruined whatever interest I may have had in the place.

Whatever else the old Spa-Francorchamp circuit was -- dangerous, deadly, treacherous, merciless -- before replaced by the ersatz Spa, it was distinct, different, unlike any of the other tracks in use.

As for Silverstone, they somehow manage to keep finding way to make it worse and worse. I now find myself having fond memories of Aintree, something which I never thought remotely possible.

[airshifter]

Great track, and a lot more action than I expected. Brilliant drive by Lewis and Sebastian both.....

Still not sure what to think of the Ferrari tranny seal. Part of me wants to think it was a very wise move and part of me wants to say that it's clearly manipulation. But either way it was open and allowed.

[nigelred5]

Great track, and a lot more action than I expected. Brilliant drive by Lewis and Sebastian both.....

Still not sure what to think of the Ferrari tranny seal. Part of me wants to think it was a very wise move and part of me wants to say that it's clearly manipulation. But either way it was open and allowed.

You are correct on all points. Shrewd strategic move, a pure manupulation of the rules, a very open move and as teh FIA confirmed, within the letter of the regulations.

[kfzmeister]

Apples and oranges again. Vettel's Red Bull actually needed some work doing on it, Ferrari just broke the seal on Massa's gearbox to deliberately invoke a penalty. I suspect that by next year the rule will be clarified so that a team needs to demonstrate the fault to the FIA's technical delegate.

Not apples and oranges at all. Both teams broke the regs to gain a performance advantage. Red Bull did not need work, simply fuel added. They changed the whole car set-up, including gear ratios. Ferrari ran their plans to simply break the seal on Massa's car by the FIA. None of the stewards had an issue with what Ferrari was about to do. Not even Red Bull was bothered by it.
For a more in depth look at what both teams did, read here: On Ferrari (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/on-ferraris-tactical-gearbox-penalty/)

[ArrowsFA1]

From James Allen's article:
These seals may only be broken with the approval of the FIA in order to make limited repairs.
There was nothing wrong with Massa's gearbox as Ferrari themselves said, therefore no repairs were required (limited or otherwise). There was no reason for the seal to be broken.

Allen says Ferrari "will have been equally open with the FIA". If they were open in advance of breaking the seal then the FIA should have prevented them from doing so.

[AndyL]

From James Allen's article:
There was nothing wrong with Massa's gearbox as Ferrari themselves said, therefore no repairs were required (limited or otherwise). There was no reason for the seal to be broken.

Allen says Ferrari "will have been equally open with the FIA". If they were open in advance of breaking the seal then the FIA should have prevented them from doing so.

I think you may have misinterpreted that bit of JA's article. The seals can only be broken with the approval of the FIA if you want to do it without getting a penalty. If you break the official seals for anything other than the specified minor repairs (oil seals etc.), or without the approval of the FIA, you get the 5-place penalty.

[The Black Knight]

Except for 1957, I attended the races at Monaco from 1955 to 1960 and it was clear even then that any actual racing was almost completely accidental -- 1961 being an exception for the simple reason that there was actually something akin to racing on the track.

Hockenheim had many things, but I would be very hesitant to include "character" among them. Never much of a blip on my radar screen. It was, however, certainly not a cookie-cutter affair. The introduction of chicanes ruined whatever interest I may have had in the place.

Whatever else the old Spa-Francorchamp circuit was -- dangerous, deadly, treacherous, merciless -- before replaced by the ersatz Spa, it was distinct, different, unlike any of the other tracks in use.

As for Silverstone, they somehow manage to keep finding way to make it worse and worse. I now find myself having fond memories of Aintree, something which I never thought remotely possible.

Some people don't like change. I get that. Most tracks in the world nowadays are purpose built and this is the way it has been for quite some time. It's going this way for driver safety more than anything else. I agree that the tracks of old have a certain characteristic that some tracks of today don't have. In previous tracks, one mistake and you're in the wall. Nowadays if you make a mistake, "on the limit" you're met by the ever forgiving tarmac which allows you to continue on as normal without having to really lose any time.

But I guess you got to look at the reasons for this and the main one is safety. I hope there will never be a death in F1 again and were the organizers to line the tracks with trees to make if look better for the nostalgic amongst us then I'm sure that in no time there would be deaths in F1. You may not like it the way it is but it's a by product of safety standards.

Lewis Hamilton is right as well in that he thinks taking too much danger out of the sport takes away from your enjoyment as a driver. There's nothing I love more than driving my kart on the edge within a mm of the wall. I'm sure that buzz is missing now in F1 and it's a pity it's gone but I don't think peoples lives should be put before a buzz.

I don't like the sanitizing of tracks either, but I do think it is necessary. And yes, In some places they have gone too far, like Eau Rouge is a walk in the park nowadays.

Finally, just because a track has long run off areas and red and white curves that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad track, it just means it's not as aesthetically pleasing to the eye as somewhere like Spa or Suzuka in their hay day. I personally loved the direction changes in the first sector in Austin and felt it was a really good track overall and the drivers certainly seemed to enjoy it a lot.

[janneppi]

From James Allen's article:
There was nothing wrong with Massa's gearbox as Ferrari themselves said, therefore no repairs were required (limited or otherwise). There was no reason for the seal to be broken.

Allen says Ferrari "will have been equally open with the FIA". If they were open in advance of breaking the seal then the FIA should have prevented them from doing so.


Everyting seem gravy fo’ tha race but then ma homies at Fo’Rrari be pretendin’ that Filly M got a broke box o’ gears and bleeb. Kinda muthafluckin’ convenient cuz he gotta take a five spot slide on tha G-rid and that put ma boy Nando on tha clean side fo’ tha five an’ out. Creative interpretatizzle of tha regulatizzles, tha sneaky muzzlefuzzckers.

I think sniffpetrol's Crazy Dave's race report said it best. :D

[wedge]

And yes, In some places they have gone too far, like Eau Rouge is a walk in the park nowadays.


The problem is that it's easily flat out for the past decade or so.

[Don Capps]

Some people don't like change. You may not like it the way it is but it's a by product of safety standards.

Basically, no disagreement with what you -- and others -- have written, but it is less a matter of being some drooling old geezer waxing nostalgic as he looks back through his rose-tinted glasses than the notion that there would seem to be a way to incorporate safety and at least some level of aesthetics or character or interest as well as incorporating some measure of challenge for the drivers into race trace designs -- Tilke certainly has not managed to do that, to name just one oft-mentioned person. Race tracks have generally been eyesores for an eternity, so this is not a new or even recent issue. I certainly have no problem with safety per se, especially having been at races where drivers were either killed or seriously injured -- Torino 1955, Le Mans 1955, Reims 1958, Spa 1960, Watkins Glen 1973 & 1974 to mention just a few.

[truefan72]

I think you may have misinterpreted that bit of JA's article. The seals can only be broken with the approval of the FIA if you want to do it without getting a penalty. If you break the official seals for anything other than the specified minor repairs (oil seals etc.), or without the approval of the FIA, you get the 5-place penalty.

then this makes little sense to me.
1. why would ferrari be allowed to break the seal under what justification?
2. So is the FIA then complicit in them moving several cars to the dirty side of the grid to benefit a single competitor?
3. if they broke the seal and were given the penalty, then so be it
but if they went to the FIA and said they wanted to break the seal simply to move massa down the grid, then the FIA should have said no, and if you do that we will penalize both drivers. We;ve already had a situation in Singapore where a teammate deliberately fell on his owns word for the sake of #1. This situation while not in-race is as close to the same impact as you can get.

[truefan72]

The problem is that it's easily flat out for the past decade or so.

while it may be flat out now, it is still taken at an incredible speed and the danger factor is still high
sometimes I find it funny when folks think that F1 is inherantly less dangerous than it actually is.
We don't need killer corners or concrete barriers to remind us of the thirll of the sport or the fact that every driver is only moments away from serious injury or death if a mistake occurs from driver or mechanical
I can name you several incidents since 2005 that were life threatening or simply through the continued efforts of car safety did not end up in ver serious injury or instant death
here are just a few drivers who would have died just 10-12 years ago form these incidents
1. Kubica- canada 2008
2. Alonso - Brazil 2005
3. fisichella - Spa (eau rouge) 2006
4. Webber, Valencia 2008
5. kovaleinen - spain 2008
6. Rosberg - monaco 2008 & 2011 (in 2011 if they had not pushed that barricade back a few meters to make it less dangerous, it was have been really nasty)
7. perez - monaco 2011

so, yeah, i'll take eau rouge as it is today, and spa is still my favorite current track

[markabilly]

The race came in third place. The company and the friday morning f1 ride tied for first place.. :D ..fur sure enuff.... :D



:beer:


and for fourth place was the ride with donkey's momma....she was constipated simultaneous at both ends.... :vader:


many thanks to the Doc.

[donKey jote]

ah Billy's back I see :wave:
He survived Giacc's sister :up:

[jens]

Great race, great battle at the front. For some time it reminded Spain 2011 and I was wondering if Vettel could keep Hamilton behind him until the end. But this time it ended differently as it is probably easier to overtake in Austin than at Barcelona.

Well, I like the circuit. The up-and-downs really add some challenge to the drivers. And created overtaking opportunities as well with some tricky entries into corners. It even reminded a bit of Interlagos with its landscape.

Alonso, great damage limitation. These are the results you have to collect on bad weekends to keep the championship alive. Impressed with Massa - wonder if he can keep it up in Brazil. Good race by Button too considering he was 16th after the start.

Shame about Grosjean's spin. After a long time he again remainded his early-season self, who collected 3 podiums. Aggressive and confident wheel-to-wheel racer with some serious speed. Really hope he can become less erratic in 2013.

Hülkenberg keeps up with his consistently strong drives. Everything in his performances indicates that he is the next man in line waiting for an opportunity in a big team. And compared to most other inexperienced young drivers around there is a lot of maturity in his driving. So he leaves an impression as a guy, who a big team can trust by giving him a car without fearing that he bins it into the wall, suffers from inconsistent form or cracks under pressure.

[Knock-on]

Austin. So long associated with crappy cars, the six thousand dollar man (inflation) and and cycling hero that fell further than Icarus.

Now, it has a new identity. Austin is WEIRD!! More than that, it's proud of it and rightly so.

Tilke has had some howlers but has gradually got bettter and even if the runoff areas still cross time zones, has at least produced a gret track here. More than that, the setting really surprised me. Southern hospitality is alive and well in Austin. Apart from one distasteful incident, I can't fault the whole of Austin as hosts. Fanzone in town was excellent. 6th street is one of the best in F1 for a night out. Food and drink prices are reasonable and the people, if lacking in indepth F1 experience, embraced F1 like a long lost friend.

I love many venues around the world but Austin is in my top 5. One that I would pay to go to.

[AndyL]

then this makes little sense to me.
1. why would ferrari be allowed to break the seal under what justification?
2. So is the FIA then complicit in them moving several cars to the dirty side of the grid to benefit a single competitor?
3. if they broke the seal and were given the penalty, then so be it
but if they went to the FIA and said they wanted to break the seal simply to move massa down the grid, then the FIA should have said no, and if you do that we will penalize both drivers. We;ve already had a situation in Singapore where a teammate deliberately fell on his owns word for the sake of #1. This situation while not in-race is as close to the same impact as you can get.

As far as I can see from the rules, it's not up to the FIA to allow or disallow the breaking of a seal - except in that specific circumstance where the competitor wants dispensation to do it for a prescribed purpose without a penalty, which did not apply here. Ferrari broke the seal, and got the penalty specified in the rules for damaging or removing the FIA seal.

James Allen's article says "In fact they will have gone through the procedure carefully with the FIA’s Charlie Whiting and Jo Bauer to ensure that they satisfied the regulations." FIA complicity, or just clarifying the regulations? We don't know what was said.

The FIA is bound by the rules just like the teams, they can't make up offences and penalties on the fly. There is no provision in the rules for penalising driver A at the event for driver B's gearbox infringement. The only option I can think of would be hitting the team with some sort of "bringing the sport into disrepute" charge after the event. However Ferrari seem to have successfully headed that off by being open about what they were doing.

[Tazio]

many thanks to the Doc.
You're welcome :)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Wait a minute... IIRC, Hockenheim was neutered because enviromentalists wanted the whole track shut down. It had nothing to do with driver and track safety. It was tree safety. The track was saved by agreeing to remove the segment in the forest and re-planting the tres, then Tilke went about his merry way of making the rest of it the equivalent of a rubber baby bumper lined kiddy playground.

No. Hockenheim was shortened, because Ecclestone demanded it. Hockenheim was too long. Cars passed the same place only 44 times per race - that was too few for maximising sponsor exposure. The Ecomentalists wanted to prevent the shortening, because it meant hacking down more trees.

[airshifter]

As far as I can see from the rules, it's not up to the FIA to allow or disallow the breaking of a seal - except in that specific circumstance where the competitor wants dispensation to do it for a prescribed purpose without a penalty, which did not apply here. Ferrari broke the seal, and got the penalty specified in the rules for damaging or removing the FIA seal.

James Allen's article says "In fact they will have gone through the procedure carefully with the FIA’s Charlie Whiting and Jo Bauer to ensure that they satisfied the regulations." FIA complicity, or just clarifying the regulations? We don't know what was said.

The FIA is bound by the rules just like the teams, they can't make up offences and penalties on the fly. There is no provision in the rules for penalising driver A at the event for driver B's gearbox infringement. The only option I can think of would be hitting the team with some sort of "bringing the sport into disrepute" charge after the event. However Ferrari seem to have successfully headed that off by being open about what they were doing.

To me the approach taken seems to be opening up a can of worms. Don't get me wrong, Ferrari took the chance and it worked for them.

But what if another team did the same thing after Ferrari and changed the grid again. Or a third team? I think it's brilliant that Ferrari got away with it, and got the desired result. But leaving the rule as is might make for some strange situations. And really if you alter the grid you are without doubt potentially altering the race outcome. Not a path F1 needs to take IMO.

[airshifter]

Now, it has a new identity. Austin is WEIRD!! More than that, it's proud of it and rightly so.



The "Keep Austin Weird" movement is nothing new. In reality it would oppose the F1 race most likely, and was originally set up to promote local small business. I ran into a coworker with one of the shirts, and inquired about what the meaning of it was. Apparently Austin has been proud to be "weird" for quite some time.

[dj_bytedisaster]

To me the approach taken seems to be opening up a can of worms. Don't get me wrong, Ferrari took the chance and it worked for them.

But what if another team did the same thing after Ferrari and changed the grid again. Or a third team? I think it's brilliant that Ferrari got away with it, and got the desired result. But leaving the rule as is might make for some strange situations. And really if you alter the grid you are without doubt potentially altering the race outcome. Not a path F1 needs to take IMO.

Well said, Sir. The way Ferrari bent the rules was a new dimension, because they also deliberately impeded other teams to gain an advantage by putting three other drivers onto the dirty side. Many in here have compared that to RB's side-stepping of the parc fermé in Abu Dhabi, but that's basically ridiculous.
RB received a penalty for ****ing-up the qualifying and Vettel lost over 20 grid positions. By starting from the pitlane they didn't influence any other driver's race. They still started dead last and even with a few seconds more deficit than starting from the grid, because there was no chance to overtake any slow cars at the start. Their complete revamp of the car also didn't negate the penalty, it only allowed better overtaking. In footballing terms, it was a change of goalkeeper. They caused a penalty and in response they changed the regular goalkeeper for one with slightly less overall ability, but who's an ace at parrying penalty shots. They sacrificed out-of-corner acceleration for more top-speed. They didn't negate the penalty, nor did they tamper with any results. They simply improved the odds of getting a result despite the penalty.
That's quite a bit different from willfully manipulating results. To return to footballing terms. Nothing in the rules prevents a team from putting someone in the goal, who couldn't catch a cold without written instruction, in order to deliberately lose the game to get an "easier" opponent in the knockout stages - bit like the Badminton scandal at the Olympics. You get an advantage, but only by deliberately manipulating the chances of others and that's simply unsporting.

[jarrambide]

The "Keep Austin Weird" movement is nothing new. In reality it would oppose the F1 race most likely, and was originally set up to promote local small business. I ran into a coworker with one of the shirts, and inquired about what the meaning of it was. Apparently Austin has been proud to be "weird" for quite some time.

It started in 2002 and it keeps getting stronger, you are right, it was born to promote buying from local independent business, from it grew into something bigger.

[kfzmeister]

Well said, Sir. The way Ferrari bent the rules was a new dimension, because they also deliberately impeded other teams to gain an advantage by putting three other drivers onto the dirty side. Many in here have compared that to RB's side-stepping of the parc fermé in Abu Dhabi, but that's basically ridiculous.
RB received a penalty for ****ing-up the qualifying and Vettel lost over 20 grid positions. By starting from the pitlane they didn't influence any other driver's race. They still started dead last and even with a few seconds more deficit than starting from the grid, because there was no chance to overtake any slow cars at the start. Their complete revamp of the car also didn't negate the penalty, it only allowed better overtaking. In footballing terms, it was a change of goalkeeper. They caused a penalty and in response they changed the regular goalkeeper for one with slightly less overall ability, but who's an ace at parrying penalty shots. They sacrificed out-of-corner acceleration for more top-speed. They didn't negate the penalty, nor did they tamper with any results. They simply improved the odds of getting a result despite the penalty.
That's quite a bit different from willfully manipulating results. To return to footballing terms. Nothing in the rules prevents a team from putting someone in the goal, who couldn't catch a cold without written instruction, in order to deliberately lose the game to get an "easier" opponent in the knockout stages - bit like the Badminton scandal at the Olympics. You get an advantage, but only by deliberately manipulating the chances of others and that's simply unsporting.

Are you a Vettel fan? :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

Well said, Sir. The way Ferrari bent the rules was a new dimension, because they also deliberately impeded other teams to gain an advantage by putting three other drivers onto the dirty side. Many in here have compared that to RB's side-stepping of the parc fermé in Abu Dhabi, but that's basically ridiculous.
RB received a penalty for ****ing-up the qualifying and Vettel lost over 20 grid positions. By starting from the pitlane they didn't influence any other driver's race. They still started dead last and even with a few seconds more deficit than starting from the grid, because there was no chance to overtake any slow cars at the start. Their complete revamp of the car also didn't negate the penalty, it only allowed better overtaking. In footballing terms, it was a change of goalkeeper. They caused a penalty and in response they changed the regular goalkeeper for one with slightly less overall ability, but who's an ace at parrying penalty shots. They sacrificed out-of-corner acceleration for more top-speed. They didn't negate the penalty, nor did they tamper with any results. They simply improved the odds of getting a result despite the penalty.
That's quite a bit different from willfully manipulating results. To return to footballing terms. Nothing in the rules prevents a team from putting someone in the goal, who couldn't catch a cold without written instruction, in order to deliberately lose the game to get an "easier" opponent in the knockout stages - bit like the Badminton scandal at the Olympics. You get an advantage, but only by deliberately manipulating the chances of others and that's simply unsporting.

I can see both points... really any time you change the grid lineup you are affecting the race of others. Maybe the solution is to leave that grid spot empty so drivers aren't changing track sides. But even doing that is having one less car at that postion, so it could skew the points.

It's a slippery slope of rules to contend with as is, I just think they need to avoid adding anything to make it worse but if possibly tighten up existing regs. As F1 has shown in the past, sooner or later someone figures out the way to find the loophole and manipulate the rule.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Are you a Vettel fan? :rolleyes:

No, I'm not and will you people please stop accusing me of it, only because I refuse to join the finger-bashing? I admit, as a German I'm not exactly displeased to see a countryman win, but that is a bit of a difference from being a fanboy. The last driver I was and still am a fan of lost both his legs 50m from where I was standing in the Grandstands at Eurospeedway in 2001.

[F1boat]

only because I refuse to join the finger-bashing?

This makes us villains and biased according to some people.

[jens]

I know the end of the season is close and tensions are high, but unless you really have something to say about the race, which was already a week ago, I recommend to have a peace here.

[F1boat]

Actually I have a question which is not about the race, but about the track. Can it be used for domestic series like Indy Car or Rolex Sports Car series?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Considering that it is built to the most modern standards, I'd say yes. Whether or not the respective race series decides to pay a visit is a different thing.

[Bagwan]

I can see both points... really any time you change the grid lineup you are affecting the race of others. Maybe the solution is to leave that grid spot empty so drivers aren't changing track sides. But even doing that is having one less car at that postion, so it could skew the points.

It's a slippery slope of rules to contend with as is, I just think they need to avoid adding anything to make it worse but if possibly tighten up existing regs. As F1 has shown in the past, sooner or later someone figures out the way to find the loophole and manipulate the rule.

One simple solution that wouldn't change things too much would be to change the number of grid positions from an odd number , five , to either four or six .
That way , there is no temptation to break the seal at all .

[Bagwan]

Actually I have a question which is not about the race, but about the track. Can it be used for domestic series like Indy Car or Rolex Sports Car series?

Bernie has never been keen to put an Indy car on the same track as an F1 car , presumably to avoid direct comparison .
I would bet it's in the contract .

But , anything else would likely work .

[dj_bytedisaster]

Bernie has never been keen to put an Indy car on the same track as an F1 car , presumably to avoid direct comparison .
I would bet it's in the contract .

But , anything else would likely work .

It worked with Montreal, which has seen both Indycar and F1 races.

[Bagwan]

It worked with Montreal, which has seen both Indycar and F1 races.

Did I miss that ?
Has there been an Indy race there , or are you thinking NASCAR ?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Molson Indy Montreal between 2002 and 2006

Molson Indy Montreal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Prix_of_Montreal)

[F1boat]

Bernie has never been keen to put an Indy car on the same track as an F1 car , presumably to avoid direct comparison .


I have heard that and maybe it was a concern in the past, but right now I think that F1 is much faster than an Indy Car.

[F1boat]

Did I miss that ?
Has there been an Indy race there , or are you thinking NASCAR ?
There was a Champ Car race in Montreal. The IRL-led Indy Car has not started in Montreal.

[Tazio]

Actually I have a question which is not about the race, but about the track. Can it be used for domestic series like Indy Car or Rolex Sports Car series?


Considering that it is built to the most modern standards, I'd say yes. Whether or not the respective race series decides to pay a visit is a different thing.
The circuit will also host the Texas Motorcycle Grand Prix,[2] a round of the Road Racing World Championship — commonly known as MotoGP — in addition to the Australian V8 Supercars series,[3] the FIA World Endurance Championship,[4] the American Le Mans Series,[5] and the Rolex Sports Car Series,[6] all of which will make their debuts at the circuit in 2013.
Their already are firm dates set for these races :up:
No Indy Cars however.

[F1boat]

Their already are firm dates set for these races :up:
No Indy Cars however.

Hopefully we'll see Indy Cars on this track as well in the future, it will be cool.

[jarrambide]

I have heard that and maybe it was a concern in the past, but right now I think that F1 is much faster than an Indy Car.

I was a huge CART fan (I even wrote a couple of years for an internet magazine that specialized in CART/Champ Car), so let me just clarify a few things first.

CART became Champ Car, the first couple of races in Montreal in which F1 and Indy Car style cars raced together, the series was still named CART.

Back then, CART had turbo engines, those cars were quicker than an F1 car in a straight because of the turbo engines, but if you compare times, an F1 car was way quicker on the whole track, this was mainly due to the brakes (F1 cars could brake way later than a CART car) and to the way tan F1 could take those corners, if you can compare video of those years you can see slightly different lines.

Bernie never had a problem with comparisons, yes, CART branded themselves the fastest series in the world, and that was true on a straight, but on the same track you could see that an F1 car was just a better car because of its design.

That was then, CART became Champ Car and then Champ Car just died, now you have Indy Car that used to be IRL, IRL cars are not even close to an F1 car, not on a straight, not on a track, not to mention Champ Car became a spec series its last couple of years and Indy Car is a spec series and will always be one, if they are able to survive.

[Starter]

Back then, CART had turbo engines, those cars were quicker than an F1 car in a straight because of the turbo engines, but if you compare times, an F1 car was way quicker on the whole track, this was mainly due to the brakes (F1 cars could brake way later than a CART car) and to the way tan F1 could take those corners, if you can compare video of those years you can see slightly different lines.
Not to mention that CART cars were approximately 300 lbs heavier than F1 cars. This was because they also had to stand up to hitting walls on ovals at 200 mph+.


Bernie never had a problem with comparisons, yes, CART branded themselves the fastest series in the world, and that was true on a straight, but on the same track you could see that an F1 car was just a better car because of its design.
But define "fastest". CART cars were faster in a straight line, but also much faster at the top end; 500 miles at well over 200 mph blows F1 away for fastest. F1 of course was still much faster in lap times on any road course. So definitions matter.

[jarrambide]

Not to mention that CART cars were approximately 300 lbs heavier than F1 cars. This was because they also had to stand up to hitting walls on ovals at 200 mph+.


But define "fastest". CART cars were faster in a straight line, but also much faster at the top end; 500 miles at well over 200 mph blows F1 away for fastest. F1 of course was still much faster in lap times on any road course. So definitions matter.



That was pretty much my point, CART was way faster if you didn't have to turn at all, but an F1 car was faster if you had to brake and turn.

I always found the faster series monicker irrelevant since some series are not trying to be faster, the change in rules every year are made to try and slow the cars, how fast can you take those turns is what makes the real difference now and it ised to make the difference back then, yes, CART had to drive on ovals and that made them heavier, but it is also true that CART teams bought their chassis, F1 teams make theirs, the changes and improvements year to year was always on F1's side.

CART still had amazing years, the racing was awesome, but I always believed that the one that wouldn't want the comparison was CART, F1 cars were just better.

[dj_bytedisaster]

CART still had amazing years, the racing was awesome, but I always believed that the one that wouldn't want the comparison was CART, F1 cars were just better.

CART never had any problem with F1, in fact they neither encouraged nor fought comparisons. Comparing those two would have been idiotic anyway as they were completely different. Champcars were heavier and equipped with steel brakes instead of carbon fibre. Also, many mechanical and external engine parts were spec'ed. An F1 car wouldn't survive an oval race, because they are not setup asymmetrically. I think Villeneuve tried that once at Estoril in 1996 and creamed the lot through the Parabolica Senna. :D

[Tazio]

Can any of ya''awl boys see this image of "The Boss" passing my grandstand seat on his victory lap?

http://i.imgur.com/nMjWM.jpg