Driver of the Race

[Koz]

KIMI!

[Koz]

Lewis - in a league of him own.
Great race from Vettel.

Grosjean nearly as good a race.

[Tazio]

Kimi!! :up:

[Robinho]

Should have been Hamilton, it was Kimi. Vettel was nothing but damn lucky, forced himself to pit for a wing and tyres then had the safety car fall his way twice. He drove hard, but nowhere near drive of the day

[F1boat]

Kimi for sure, a great victory and against Alonso and Ferrari so sweet! Great race for Vettel as well :-)

[ShiftingGears]

Kimi and Maldonado were standouts.

[Ranger]

Hamilton.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Unpopular choice, but I go for Vettel. 23rd to 12th then back to 22nd and then to fourth. That's a drive for the ages. The only thing he gained from that second SC was a shot at overtaking Button. He was already 4th before it. Kudos for making all his detractors look like blithering idiots.
Kimmi and Alonso close second, with extra-credit to Kimmi for his hilarious radio messages :D

[Koz]

Kimi for being booed...

[DexDexter]

Kimi! YES!!!!!!!

[truefan72]

Should have been Hamilton, it was Kimi. Vettel was nothing but damn lucky, forced himself to pit for a wing and tyres then had the safety car fall his way twice. He drove hard, but nowhere near drive of the day

ditto!

[N. Jones]

Hmm....Bruno Senna. HE got knocked around a lot but still finished in the points.

[The Black Knight]

Hamilton really was the driver of the race and it was robbed by McLaren once again letting him down. The more time goes on the more I'm convinced he's doing the right thing by leaving that team.

Kimi and Alonso also drove great races.

Vettel was not the driver of the race. He was clumsy and getting rattled within the car but as usual lady luck shone through on him and the cards fell his way with two safety cars allowing him to fight towards the top.

[Mia 01]

KIMI !!!!!

Thanks for being Kimi. I was very nervous the last couple of laps but you made it both for yourself and Seb.

[Robinho]

Vettel forced himself into an early stop, but got away with it cos of the safety car, and then got the best from a 2 stopper from the 2nd safety car. He did nothing but drive a fast car fast and drs past slower cars. Everyone else crashed rather than race him

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

[longisland]

Great choice of words from Kimi & Seb... I think they will definitely consider scraping the podium interview.

[ShiftingGears]

Hmm....Bruno Senna. HE got knocked around a lot but still finished in the points.

Maldonado was doing a pretty fine job of being a threat to the frontrunners if they started getting complacent. How does Senna's drive compare in the slightest to Maldonado's?

[truefan72]

Hamilton really was the driver of the race and it was robbed by McLaren once again letting him down. The more time goes on the more I'm convinced he's doing the right thing by leaving that team. indeed


and Alonso also drove great races.

Vettel was not the driver of the race. He was clumsy and getting rattled within the car but as usual lady luck shone through on him and the cards fell his way with two safety cars allowing him to fight towards the top.


Vettel forced himself into an early stop, but got away with it cos of the safety car, and then got the best from a 2 stopper from the 2nd safety car. He did nothing but drive a fast car fast and drs past slower cars. Everyone else crashed rather than race him

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


don't tell that to dj_bytedisaster

[jens]

Räikkönen, Alonso, Vettel - all drove great! Among retirees you can add Hamilton as well.

Sad to see so much disrespect to Vettel. Sure he was lucky, as was Alonso in Valencia. Still great damage limitation.

[F1boat]

And some of you guys are curious why I have reservations for Lewis fans... the first thing they do is to try to diminish the wonderful podium of Seb...

[pino]

Arguably Kimi followed by Lewis :up:

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel was not the driver of the race. He was clumsy and getting rattled within the car but as usual lady luck shone through on him and the cards fell his way with two safety cars allowing him to fight towards the top.

First safety car cost him 10 places and he was already 4th before the second. Seriously, I can't understand your need to diminish his drive. Had it been someone else, most people would be full of praise. I'm completely lost for ideas why people need to hate some drivers. :(
Just enjoy it. Only people, who have suffered through the 90s with über-cars and no overtaking can appreciate, how exciting F1 actually is these days. Did anyone notice that the 6th different team and the 8th different drivist won a GP this year?

[F1boat]

Well said, dj_byte :)

[truefan72]

And some of you guys are curious why I have reservations for Lewis fans... the first thing they do is to try to diminish the wonderful podium of Seb...

this not a gang turf war or some beef or anything of that nature.

liking one driver and disliking/criticising another are two completely separate issues

even the word dislike is a far stretch, except for a certain person who wishes he would crash (which most of us abhor)

its rather immature to make those connections and even more revealing about yourself that you would categorize folks as such and have "reservations"

I know you are better than that.

[F1boat]

liking one driver and disliking/criticising another are two completely separate issues


This is simply not true and you know it. For example, I doubt that many fans of Damon Hill or Mika Hakkinen liked Michael Schumacher in the 90s...

[wedge]

Vettel forced himself into an early stop, but got away with it cos of the safety car, and then got the best from a 2 stopper from the 2nd safety car. He did nothing but drive a fast car fast and drs past slower cars. Everyone else crashed rather than race him

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2

Passing JB was impressive. On the outside and JB wisely backed out at the last phase.

OK, he had better tyres but then there are similar excuses for some of the great passes over the years.

Lady luck. Alonso had this before but he gets more credit for creating/taking advantage of it.



Maldonado was doing a pretty fine job of being a threat to the frontrunners if they started getting complacent. How does Senna's drive compare in the slightest to Maldonado's?

Maldonado lucked it. He was 2s off the pace and arguably punted off a rival. Should have been a top 10 finish rather than top 5 on outright pace alone.

[dj_bytedisaster]

liking one driver and disliking/criticising another are two completely separate issues


I must admit, I find that hard to believe. You've spent several posts on telling us that Vettel "lucked" into his 3rd position because of the safety cars, which simply isn't true. The first one actually cost him (due to own mistake), so if the first SC hadn't happened, he could've finished even higher. The only thing where he clearly profited was the second SC, which brought him close enough to Button to overtake him for 3rd. But then again, on a track like Abu Dhabi, a safety car is almost a given. Walls so close to the track make for an almost safe deployment.

[ioan]

One can always count on Lewy's fans for entertainment.
Got the news about the race on the radio while driving home after a great week end and told myself that it will be fun to see what Alonso's and Lewy's fans are spouting around here.
Just as expected a lot of rubbish posted but for a couple of people. Especially the posts from the Lewy fans are exhilarating! If Autosport's race report is right then Lewy didn't even make it to his first pitstop, yet he's the driver of the race!! :rotflmao:
Man I've almost forgotten how much fun one can have by reading the 'comments' around here!

PS: I guess Lewy's fans are trying to get some more glory while it lasts cause next year it will be midfield games with, paraphrasing Lewis, the 'monkeys'.

[jens]

You've spent several posts on telling us that Vettel "lucked" into his 3rd position because of the safety cars, which simply isn't true.

Yeah, actually I am wondering, where would Vettel have ended up without safety cars. From what we know, he was up to P12 before the SC and with a less damaged front wing than it was after the contact with Ricciardo. From what I saw, Vettel's pace was pretty good there in P12, catching a long train of cars in front. I think he was planning to stay out longer than others as well on his hard tyres. In the end he may not have reached podium in a SC-free race, but a top5 was certainly a possibility.

[truefan72]

This is simply not true and you know it. For example, I doubt that many fans of Damon Hill or Mika Hakkinen liked Michael Schumacher in the 90s...

but what's the beef between vettel and hamilton. I could see this if this was 2007/2008 and alonso/hamilton but there simply is no correlation.
I've praised Vettel plenty in the past and even this year, I've praise Alonso this year, If anything I should be most in dislike of button, but I'm not.
So epxlain to me the nature of the issue hamilton fans have with vettel.
This is a lazy narrative that fits more into your view of things than reality. Calling Vettel lucky today and/or criticizing him for cursing on the podium or laying blame at ricciardo is a far cry from being a partisan fan.
Its simply baffling to me where you folks get this stuff from.
So what does it mean when folks are critical of webber, do they love Kimi?
or critical of massa, does that mean they like Rosberg?
if that sounds absurd, then you catch my drift.
FFS its not even as if Hamilton is in a title chase with Vettel

[truefan72]

I must admit, I find that hard to believe. You've spent several posts on telling us that Vettel "lucked" into his 3rd position because of the safety cars, which simply isn't true. The first one actually cost him (due to own mistake), so if the first SC hadn't happened, he could've finished even higher. The only thing where he clearly profited was the second SC, which brought him close enough to Button to overtake him for 3rd. But then again, on a track like Abu Dhabi, a safety car is almost a given. Walls so close to the track make for an almost safe deployment.

First of all, I never said Vettel lucked into his position because of safety cars, I said he benefited by foolish driving ahead of him.
so go back and read my posts FFS

[Zico]

I think Fernando had a great drive but Its got to be... KIMI!!!- great race, brilliant... also loved his comedy radio messages, I wish there were more characters like him in F1. :D :D :D

Not sure how some of you can name Lewis as DOTR....he only lasted 20 laps! Not his fault but I'd only have considered him If he had actually gone on to win it.

Vettel also deserves a worthy mention, yeah he had a lot of luck with the SC but seriously that was a great drive while under huge pressure!

Fantastic race, a cracker... best one of the season! :)

[Bias]

Well first off hello to everyone!

Anyways, after watching the race today. I would have to tip my hat to Kimi and he did a fantastic job today. He had a great start off the line in second. His pace was consistent and he held off a charging Alonso and stayed extremely close to Lewis. Lewis would have been my original choice, but that issue he had. I think it was the fuel pump, at least what Gary Anderson stated.

Others who did well. Jenson did a solid job, Alonso, and Vettel (He was blessed today). A quiet shout to Kamui Koboyashi today as well who had a solid and quite silent race.

[Bagwan]

A wee tip of the hat to Felipe , who spun his car after an avoidance move that kept a red mist rattled Aussie from being horribly T-boned as he re-entered the track directly into his path .

[jens]

After learning that Maldonado didn't have KERS, I am tempted to include him among the standouts of the race as well. Good drive and without incidents this time!

[The Black Knight]

After learning that Maldonado didn't have KERS, I am tempted to include him among the standouts of the race as well. Good drive and without incidents this time!

I agree with that. He had a really good race and he wasn't to blame for the incident with Webber either.

[Malbec]

After learning that Maldonado didn't have KERS, I am tempted to include him among the standouts of the race as well. Good drive and without incidents this time!

nor did Kobayashi. Both drivers deserve a mention as does Kovalainen for nearly winning Caterham 10th place again.

Kimi gets my vote. Seb did well but took advantage of safety cars and I thought he was at fault for the incident with Riccardo

[Triumph]

Sebastian, pretty clearly. Lewis also for being so quick up until when his car conked out.

[D-Type]

It's a hard choice
Kimi didn't put a wheel wrong.
Admittedly the safety car incidents helped Seb but when all's said and done he did go from 22nd to 3rd

[donKey jote]

Kimi for his start, followed by solid, untroubled laps.
Alonso for his first laps and solid race. He did as much as was possible again.

[The Black Knight]

First safety car cost him 10 places and he was already 4th before the second. Seriously, I can't understand your need to diminish his drive. Had it been someone else, most people would be full of praise. I'm completely lost for ideas why people need to hate some drivers.
Just enjoy it. Only people, who have suffered through the 90s with über-cars and no overtaking can appreciate, how exciting F1 actually is these days. Did anyone notice that the 6th different team and the 8th different drivist won a GP this year?

Again you're kinda veering off track here assuming I hate someone just because I bring objectivity. I'm not diminishing Seb's obvious talent nor the fact that he drove he drove a good second half of the race today, I'm trying to be objective, something I knew people like you wouldn't do as soon as he finished third on the podium. It's kind of like Canada with Button last year, where Schumacher was driver of the race, and everyone hailing Button's drive as a great drive, and while it was, he also was lucky with pit stops. He went through the pits 6 times in that race if memory serves me and numerous safety cars played into his hand. Similarly with Seb today the same happened.

While Seb drove well today, he wasn't flawless. I'm not trying to diminish his drive, I'm putting it into perspective so people don't get carried away as they tend to do quite a lot. I'd be doing the same if it were Alonso or Hamilton that drove that race today.

[Javi_racing]

I can't choose the driver of this amazing race, Kimi, Fernando and seb have been fantastic today... Excellent driven from them!

[Langdale Forest]

Kimi Raikkonen

[RearSlip]

Vettel, I think, by a small margin.
Alonso and Kimi did great, but Vettel went from last to the podium without getting killed by Perez, Webber, Grosjean, or Button, on top of that.

[Big Ben]

kimi... because he won..

I like the argument in vettel's favor that he managed to get to 3rd by practically starting twice from the back.. well, he had to do that because he's an idiot but he has the best car and people kept crashing in front of him, the stewards were sleeping while he was driving across the parking lot to pass whoever, he pulled that awesome pass on JB, who is one of the few drivers overtakeable even at Imola and had 2 safety car periods just when he needed them. impressive indeed.

[Zico]

the stewards were sleeping while he was driving across the parking lot to pass whoever...

The stewards weren't sleeping... he gave the place back then passed him again.

[steveaki13]

Wow. There are so many drivers worthy of a mention.

Driver of the Race:

Kimi Raikkonen - He drove brilliantly and fully deserves his win. Great Stuff

Other Mentions:
Fernando Alonso - What a drive again from Alonso. He pushed so hard, those last laps were a joy to watch.

Lewis Hamilton - Drove a perfect race until another dissapointing retirement.

Sebastian Vettel - Had some luck with the SCs and carnage, but still drove a very good race. One that could win the title.

Maldonado- Fine drive. He kept calm early on running 3rd. Then after some chaos he regrouped and came through to 10 well earned points.

Kobayashi - Good job done. He battled through and got points just at the time he needed them.

Senna- He was smashed up in the first few laps and then came brilliantly through the field to score some solid points.

di Resta - Same as Bruno. Was way behind early on but a calm drive.

Charles Pic- This is about the 4th or 5th time I mentioned him this season. He Qualified really well again and was racing well until his retirement. He is really deserving of a chance somewhere else and not just drift away like di Grassi & d'Ambrosio

[tfp]

Fantastic race, made up for the boring (IMO) race in india.

No doubt about the driver of the race. Bieber all day. Apart from his childish rant about being blocke by the toro rosso it was a perfect drive. He beats Kimi in my book. I'm not exactly a fan of Bieber but I cant deny that was the best performance Ive ever seen from him.

And Kimi. The iceman really is back, flawless fantastic victory. He would have easily been the knight if Bieber wasnt on fire.

Hamilton, the unluckiest driver of the race, and the season. two victorys denied through mechanical failure.

Fred IMO is once again over rated, that Ferrari should have caught the Lotus, but Kimi outdrove him.

But the donkey of the race award.... Britney without a doubt. That incident really was avoidable.

I'm sure many will disagree with my views, but I'm glad there are many views to be had, that is showing of an excellent race.

[RearSlip]

Britney?

[Warriwa]

Britney's in the wall!

[gloomyDAY]

Vettel. /thread

[TheFamousEccles]

Poor Ali G, two races this season scratched due to mech failure. Bad luck indeed.

[Robinho]

don't get me wrong, i thought it was a spectacular race, and Vettel undoubtedly did a great job to get up on the podium, but that finishing position was as much to do with the safety car periods and the number of competitors chucking their cars off the road. Without the 1st safety car he would have had to run a conventional 1 stopper and would not have been able to take the advantage of the new soft tyres. He probbaly would have been up to 6th-8th, possibly higher with the attrition, but he wouldn't come out in 4th after having to stop that is sure. Furthermore it is as much about the great decision by Red Bull to pull the car out of parc ferme and start from the pit lane with less downforce and a longer 7th gear, otherwise a large number of those DRS passes would not have been possible. I'm not saying he drove poorly, he made the best of the position he found himself in, but the way the race fell for him could hardly have been better, apart from twice self inflicted wing damage, which was replaced as a freebie.

For me Vettel was at best 3rd best on the day, Kimi and Alonso were better IMO and Lewis would likely have been in my list too the pace he was leaving them at the front, had the car not failed.

this goes for everyone. Stop labelling people haters and fanboys just because you disagree with their opinions. Especially if your opinions are at the very least just as subjective as theirs. It makes you looko like a complete tool

[truefan72]

don't get me wrong, i thought it was a spectacular race, and Vettel undoubtedly did a great job to get up on the podium, but that finishing position was as much to do with the safety car periods and the number of competitors chucking their cars off the road. Without the 1st safety car he would have had to run a conventional 1 stopper and would not have been able to take the advantage of the new soft tyres. He probbaly would have been up to 6th-8th, possibly higher with the attrition, but he wouldn't come out in 4th after having to stop that is sure. Furthermore it is as much about the great decision by Red Bull to pull the car out of parc ferme and start from the pit lane with less downforce and a longer 7th gear, otherwise a large number of those DRS passes would not have been possible. I'm not saying he drove poorly, he made the best of the position he found himself in, but the way the race fell for him could hardly have been better, apart from twice self inflicted wing damage, which was replaced as a freebie.

For me Vettel was at best 3rd best on the day, Kimi and Alonso were better IMO and Lewis would likely have been in my list too the pace he was leaving them at the front, had the car not failed.

this goes for everyone. Stop labelling people haters and fanboys just because you disagree with their opinions. Especially if your opinions are at the very least just as subjective as theirs. It makes you looko like a complete tool

:up:

[The Black Knight]

don't get me wrong, i thought it was a spectacular race, and Vettel undoubtedly did a great job to get up on the podium, but that finishing position was as much to do with the safety car periods and the number of competitors chucking their cars off the road. Without the 1st safety car he would have had to run a conventional 1 stopper and would not have been able to take the advantage of the new soft tyres. He probbaly would have been up to 6th-8th, possibly higher with the attrition, but he wouldn't come out in 4th after having to stop that is sure. Furthermore it is as much about the great decision by Red Bull to pull the car out of parc ferme and start from the pit lane with less downforce and a longer 7th gear, otherwise a large number of those DRS passes would not have been possible. I'm not saying he drove poorly, he made the best of the position he found himself in, but the way the race fell for him could hardly have been better, apart from twice self inflicted wing damage, which was replaced as a freebie.

For me Vettel was at best 3rd best on the day, Kimi and Alonso were better IMO and Lewis would likely have been in my list too the pace he was leaving them at the front, had the car not failed.

this goes for everyone. Stop labelling people haters and fanboys just because you disagree with their opinions. Especially if your opinions are at the very least just as subjective as theirs. It makes you looko like a complete tool

I couldn't agree with this more. I was having a grand debate, or so I thought, with dj_bytedisaster until he started labeling me a hater because my opinion differed I had an answer for everything he was spewing. It's a shame some posters have to resort to this level when they can't prove their point.

[CaptainRaiden]

Driver of the race - Kimi. Even if he did inherit the lead from Lewis, he had solid pace from then on finishing ahead of better cars. Besides, he deserves DOTR simply for the EPIC radio comments! :p

Honorable mention: Alonso - another fine drive keeps him in the championship.

Driver of the first 20 laps - Lewis. If some folks here are wondering why many gave Lewis the DOTR, you just have to look at his race pace and his overall pace this weekend. Lewis was on fire, pushing way over the car's capability. And like Ant Davidson said on the Sky F1 show, it's Lewis, and not Mclaren, that made the difference in qualifying. He OWNS this track.

You only have to look at Button's pace (or lack thereof) in the sister Mclaren to realize just how Lewis was steamrolling the opposition until his car gave up.

[The Black Knight]

Driver of the race - Kimi. Even if he did inherit the lead from Lewis, he had solid pace from then on finishing ahead of better cars. Besides, he deserves DOTR simply for the EPIC radio comments! :p

Honorable mention: Alonso - another fine drive keeps him in the championship.

Driver of the first 20 laps - Lewis. If some folks here are wondering why many gave Lewis the DOTR, you just have to look at his race pace and his overall pace this weekend. Lewis was on fire, pushing way over the car's capability. And like Ant Davidson said on the Sky F1 show, it's Lewis, and not Mclaren, that made the difference in qualifying. He OWNS this track.

You only have to look at Button's pace (or lack thereof) in the sister Mclaren to realize just how Lewis was steamrolling the opposition until his car gave up.

Lewis has been on fire the entire year. It's not just this race. Unfortunately he has had probably had worse look than Schumacher in that he has now failed to finish 5 races, a perfectly good pole position taken from him in Spain, pit stop errors, suspension issues etc McLaren haven't covered themselves in glory and they have left a championship Lewis was ready to win slip through their fingers. It's the second year along with 2007 that McLaren have lost the WDC for Lewis.

Button was about a second slower per lap than Lewis this weekend. I haven't compared their times in the race, I suspect they were closer but I'd be pretty sure Lewis could have upped his pace whenever he wanted. As you said, Lewis steamrolled everyone this weekend. He's without doubt the quickest driver on the grid at the moment.

[Knock-on]

Well, Lewis was the outstanding driver of the weekend until the car let him down.

Alonso was hard and fast all race and throughly deserves a mention.

Koby and Pastor were strong and it was nice to see Pastor behaving himself.

Vettel is worthy of a passing mention. He was ragged and lucky to finish the race with some silly driving. The Red Bull is an awesome car and easily passed most of the cars out there and of course he benefitted from the SC periods.

Button deserves a small mention as well for the way he kept the faster Bull with new options behind him for so many laps. It was inevitable but the hardest pass Seb had to make by a country mile.

That leaves us with the 2 outstanding drivers of the day; PdR and Kimi. Kimi finally got the performance out of the car that the Lotus deserves. It's a quick car that's easy on tyres and economical wth fuel. Today he hooked it up perfectly. Paul got punted out of the race at the begining by his team mate and came from the back to finish in the points. He was forced off the track but kept it together and didn't put a foot wrong that I saw. What's more, all this in a car that is turning into a bit of a dog. Lets face it, the Force India on pace should be finishing round 14th on pace so Paul really overachieved today.

I think I must give it to Kimi on balance as although he lucked the position, he monstered the race once out front and never looked in any trouble.

[zako85]

Raikkonen, Alonso and Vettel did a fantastic job and their podium finishes reflect that.

I am honestly perplexed with the people on this thread who still question Sunday's Vettel's drive. Today he passed almost the whole field, caught his teammate somewhere mid-race, and then passed Button, who was driving a car that's capable of pole position. If it didn't take him so long to pass Button, I think he would have given Alonso a good run for his money. What else is still left for Vettel to "prove"? Win race starting from pit lane? Will this be enough to silence critics or will they still nitpick? I don't know.

He certainly was helped by safety cars. But let's put it this way, even if he finished 5th or 6ths with no aid from safety cars, which he was more than capable of, it still would have been a great drive and worthy of mention. I honestly thought before the race that the likely championship scenario was that Alonso and Vettel would leave roughly tied. I was really surprised. I was thinking Vettel would take 7th, 6ths, or maybe 5ths at best, but not a podium.

[Bezza]

Vettel really can't be driver of the day when:

1) He crashed into Senna, clumsily.
2) Mistake under safety car - his fault.
3) Off track pass on Grosjean.

He finished third due to high attrition, two safety cars and luck with pitstop timing. His only real pass was on Button towards the end.

Above all though, great race! Really good fun. Kimi and Alonso drove superbly, Maldonado also excellent.

[zako85]

3) Off track pass on Grosjean.


He gave the position back, and then passed Grosjean anyways. This time Grosjean was in a race winning and multiple podium winning car.



He finished third due to high attrition, two safety cars


As others pointed out, he didn't gain much with SCs, specially the second safety car. All the second safety car did, is let Vettel have a short at Button, and he took it. If there was no second SC, he would have finished comfortably 4ths, and it still would have been a great drive in my book. It's not clear what Vettel gained from the first SC. He went in to change the noise and went to the back of grid.



His only real pass was on Button towards the end.


And that's not enough? Button is not good driver or his car was slow?

[CaptainRaiden]

Vettel is worthy of a passing mention. He was ragged and lucky to finish the race with some silly driving. The Red Bull is an awesome car and easily passed most of the cars out there and of course he benefitted from the SC periods.

What was quite amazing is how his Red Bull passed two backmarkers without slipstreaming them on the back straight. Not that the Marussia and Caterham are such amazing cars, but he just drove past both of them like they were touring cars. :eek:

[zako85]

What was quite amazing is how his Red Bull passed two backmarkers without slipstreaming them on the back straight. Not that the Marussia and Caterham are such amazing cars, but he just drove past both of them like they were touring cars. :eek:

No surprise there. These cars are several _seconds_ slower than others in qualifying trim, and never make past Q1 in qualifying unless someone else screws up. The back marker cars do serve an important purpose. They make the race more challenging by creating slow moving obstacles for others to go around, kind of like GT cars in Le Mans racing.

[Bezza]

He gave the position back, and then passed Grosjean anyways. This time Grosjean was in a race winning and multiple podium winning car.

To attempt to pass off-track AGAIN this season was stupid, and cost him time, un-necessarily.


As others pointed out, he didn't gain much with SCs, specially the second safety car. All the second safety car did, is let Vettel have a short at Button, and he took it. If there was no second SC, he would have finished comfortably 4ths, and it still would have been a great drive in my book. It's not clear what Vettel gained from the first SC. He went in to change the noise and went to the back of grid.

The safety car kept the field bunched up and allowed a free pitstop for his clumsy accidents with Senna and Ricciardo.


And that's not enough? Button is not good driver or his car was slow?

I didn't say it wasn't a good pass, it was. But that was only difficult move perfomed well all race.

The race proved that the Red Bull is the quickest car, and in my opinion, underlined the fact that Vettel is not high-qualty when it comes to driving through the field. With either of his accidents, he could have got worse damage and had a DNF.

Although Eddie Jordan reckons the "Vettel is not very good when not in front" opinion is false, I think the race proved it has some credibility.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I didn't say it wasn't a good pass, it was. But that was only difficult move perfomed well all race.

The race proved that the Red Bull is the quickest car, and in my opinion, underlined the fact that Vettel is not high-qualty when it comes to driving through the field. With either of his accidents, he could have got worse damage and had a DNF.

Although Eddie Jordan reckons the "Vettel is not very good when not in front" opinion is false, I think the race proved it has some credibility.

Quite a few of my friends are British and that's why I have so much fun with you guys. Show them a German who's doing better than their own guys and they get their knickers in a twist :D
I think it goes without saying that the 'Vettel can't race' thing doesn't wash anymore, yet you guys still find ways to resurrect it. If that Red Bull is so super-awesome, how come Webber was behind Vettel by the time the second SC came out, despite starting more than 20 positions higher up the road? Saying he's not high-quality is utter bullcrap. You don't luck into two WDC be in contention for a third. Button in 2009 - that was a lucky WDC - but I don't hear that much criticism about him. If Vettel isn't high-quality, what does that make Button? Utter **** or something?

Seriously, I'm getting fed up with all the negativity in here. Heck, I'm not even a Vettel fan, but I spent the best part of the last 24 hours trying to defend the guy, because just about everyone and his dog is sprouting nothing but negativity in here. Seriously, if he would walk on water, people would mock him for not being able to swim...

[i_max2k2]

I'm not getting into whos better but here is how I saw it, Vettel drove well with one of the fastest cars on the track got track positions gifted to him every time he came close to either Toro Rosso's or mark webber, he definitely got some advantage from the safety cars and the attrition of other cars, not a great drive but perhaps a decent return from last spot.

[i_max2k2]

Quite a few of my friends are British and that's why I have so much fun with you guys. Show them a German who's doing better than their own guys and they get their knickers in a twist :D
I think it goes without saying that the 'Vettel can't race' thing doesn't wash anymore, yet you guys still find ways to resurrect it. If that Red Bull is so super-awesome, how come Webber was behind Vettel by the time the second SC came out, despite starting more than 20 positions higher up the road? Saying he's not high-quality is utter bullcrap. You don't luck into two WDC be in contention for a third. Button in 2009 - that was a lucky WDC - but I don't hear that much criticism about him. If Vettel isn't high-quality, what does that make Button? Utter **** or something?

Seriously, I'm getting fed up with all the negativity in here. Heck, I'm not even a Vettel fan, but I spent the best part of the last 24 hours trying to defend the guy, because just about everyone and his dog is sprouting nothing but negativity in here. Seriously, if he would walk on water, people would mock him for not being able to swim...

Webber was a victim of some his and others mistakes, I think he got spun twice or so?

[Bezza]

Quite a few of my friends are British and that's why I have so much fun with you guys. Show them a German who's doing better than their own guys and they get their knickers in a twist :D
I think it goes without saying that the 'Vettel can't race' thing doesn't wash anymore, yet you guys still find ways to resurrect it. If that Red Bull is so super-awesome, how come Webber was behind Vettel by the time the second SC came out, despite starting more than 20 positions higher up the road? Saying he's not high-quality is utter bullcrap. You don't luck into two WDC be in contention for a third. Button in 2009 - that was a lucky WDC - but I don't hear that much criticism about him. If Vettel isn't high-quality, what does that make Button? Utter **** or something?

Seriously, I'm getting fed up with all the negativity in here. Heck, I'm not even a Vettel fan, but I spent the best part of the last 24 hours trying to defend the guy, because just about everyone and his dog is sprouting nothing but negativity in here. Seriously, if he would walk on water, people would mock him for not being able to swim...

Nationality has nothing to do with it. I am not Hamilton or Button fan, or a McLaren fan, or a Williams fan. I am an F1 fan.

You have presumed that it is "because its Vettel" that I am having a pop at his drive. Watching the race, I think my opinion of Vettel's performance IN THIS RACE is correct, and Vettel's reputation of finding it difficult in the pack has been endorsed. The proof is there to see!

[SGWilko]

Had he finished, I'd have voted for Lewis. He was in a class of his own and, quite frankly, made JB look sub par.

While Vettel drove a good race, his car was however set up to overtake, and had some very lucky SC periods that worked in his favour. Almost taking out a sister car would have been stoopid, but as it was, finishing off an already compromised wing with the DRS board put sway to his chances of DOTR.

I'd give it to Kimi or Fred. Fred started 6th and got 2nd, Kimi drove well, and provided great pit radio entertainment.

The iceman is back alright!

[zako85]

I didn't say it wasn't a good pass, it was. But that was only difficult move perfomed well all race.


Sometimes one move is what counts the most. In this case, it counted for a podium and very valuable points.



The race proved that the Red Bull is the quickest car, and in my opinion, underlined the fact that Vettel is not high-qualty when it comes to driving through the field.


This is an opinion and _highly_ subjective and not easily defensible one. RBR is quickest, yet Lotus and Ferrari were still able to post fastest laps? Next, your definition of "high-quality" is again highly subjective and I must say unrealistic. By the standard you apply to Vettel here, pretty much no one on the field is a high quality driver when not running in front, except for Alonso and Raikkonen. One could go back and look at F1s greatest drivers like Schumacher or Senna and still find faults and conclude that there existed a race that proved that none of them was "high quality".

I personally admire a driver who when presented an opportunity always makes a full advantage of it. Some can talk about Vettel's good luck all day long, but in the end the luck is worth nothing if one does not take advantage of the opportunities presented. In this sense Vettel was perfect today, very much in the same way Button was great in 2011 in Canada. One could argue that Button was clumsy and sloppy, and he was! That day he caused accidents, took his teammate out and lost wing, and even earned a penalty. Yet, he took advantage of all the opportunities given later by SCs, rain, and mistakes of others. The funny thing is that if you did a quick survey, I bet a lot of people who seem unimpressed with Vettel right now were ecstatic when Button won in 2011 Canada.

[F1boat]

very well said, zako85. Honestly I am disgusted with some F1 fans. :(

[jens]

I think Vettel has shown his quality this season in terms of "coming through the field".

I like the thought that championship is won based on what you can salvage on bad days. In Abu Dhabi Vettel started from the very back (twice, second time after SC), in Belgium he was 11th on the grid, at Monaco 9th (?). And in China he was 15th (!) after the opening lap. The end results in those races were 3rd, 2nd, 4th and 5th. So Seb is fully capable of delivering strong results from difficult situations and this is what would win him the championship if he won it. Same about 2010 and reliability - he had to nurse a broken car to 4th in Bahrain and 3rd in Spain. These feats enabled him to win the title in the end.

We can talk about luck, but what highlights Vettel's race this time for me is that he went from 21st to 4th (on merit) in the space of 15-20 laps. This is not an easy task, even on fresher tyres.

In the end it comes down to everyone's attitude. If you want, you can look at the bright side, if you want you can look at the bad aspects. In the same way you can downplay Räikkönen's win by saying he lucked into it (Hamilton's problems and Vettel's DQ) or that Alonso's drive was made to look better thanks to SC (as he was 10 secs behind Kimi before without a shot at the win).

[FragNasty]

1. Kimi

He had a great drive; he has been consistent all year and his performance at R18 is not an out-layer. The entertainment value of his radio replies is off the charts. I'm glad there is only one Kimi in F1; it's his unique attitude that makes him special.

and for DNF

1. Nico Rosberg

The most awesome footage of the race is the sequence that includes some 400 ms of flight time during which the Mercedes happens try soaring away into the sunset before a heavy landing and skidding into the barricades. That is still a distant second from Kubika in Canada, but never the less, an absolutely fantastic smash-up. For both drivers to walk away from that is a demonstration of more luck than even Vettels 3rd place. This is my first post; I sincerely hope none of you take offense to my distinct appeal for carbon-fiber being smashed and flying off cars; I see it as part of the appeal the sport has.

[steveaki13]

Bit fed up with constant ravings. :(

Seb is great

Seb is S***

Lewis is awesome

Lewis is a k***

Alonso is great

Alonso is a spoilt Brat

Button is a fine driver

Button is the slowest snail out there.

:dozey:

The bottom line is, that all these drivers are world class and as in all F1 history some are just that bit faster than others, some are nicer, some are over confident (Arrogant) if you like, some make mistakes, some like a car suited perfectly to them and some sling any old bin round the track.

All drivers and cars vary and like those some people on here would favour one over the other, but after alls said and done.

The Red Bull is a very fast car and Seb is a very good driver and yesterday things went his way. Next race Lewis could win by a mile and Vettel have an oil leak or whatever.

Motor racing and motor cars have issues and drivers get unlucky. Doesn't mean a team is doing it on purpose, its just racing. Some days your favourite will win, another he will crash into everything and finish a lap down.

Forget it move on and love the good your driver or team does one week and bow to the awesome driving or bad luck of a rival next week.

F1 is great and we have alot of great drivers at the moment with different strengths, personalities and attributes which all makes for a great period in F1s history. Enjoy Guys :cool:

[steveaki13]

Sorry for off topic for a post but this thread is an endless cycle of whos better, rather than who was great yesterday, afterall like or loath them its hard to deny Kimi, Fernando & Seb were stand out yesterday in terms of result. Regardless of how they got there.

[D-Type]

1. Kimi

He had a great drive; he has been consistent all year and his performance at R18 is not an out-layer. The entertainment value of his radio replies is off the charts. I'm glad there is only one Kimi in F1; it's his unique attitude that makes him special.

and for DNF

1. Nico Rosberg

The most awesome footage of the race is the sequence that includes some 400 ms of flight time during which the Mercedes happens try soaring away into the sunset before a heavy landing and skidding into the barricades. That is still a distant second from Kubika in Canada, but never the less, an absolutely fantastic smash-up. For both drivers to walk away from that is a demonstration of more luck than even Vettels 3rd place. This is my first post; I sincerely hope none of you take offense to my distinct appeal for carbon-fiber being smashed and flying off cars; I see it as part of the appeal the sport has.
Clearly you are too young to remember even Imola 1994 let alone countless previous fatalities.

[steveaki13]

Clearly you are too young to remember even Imola 1994 let alone countless previous fatalities.

I haven't watched F1 as long as some on here, but I have had the misfortune of watching that race in 1994.
Even similar to Burti in 2001 or Kubica in 2007.

Once you watch live these incidents you have a different reaction I think. As much as crashes are spectacular and get your attention, these are never good to see.

Just glad when I saw both walk away safe and sound.

[F1boat]

Sorry for off topic for a post but this thread is an endless cycle of whos better, rather than who was great yesterday, afterall like or loath them its hard to deny Kimi, Fernando & Seb were stand out yesterday in terms of result. Regardless of how they got there.

Well said :)

[jas123f1]

The driver of the race? There were two of them, Kimi and Sebastian - both had a better result than expected.

[Tazio]

The driver of the race? There were two of them, Kimi and Sebastian - both had a better result than expected.And Fred was a sure thing to pick up 4 positions. Love your sig :dozey: :rotflmao:

[F16]

All those on the podium deserve it, but driving Lotus obviously Kimi has strong comeback, congrats on the first win

[F1boat]

And Fred was a sure thing to pick up 4 positions. Love your sig :dozey: :rotflmao:

Well, Horner did say that his podium finish was "entirely predictable" :D

[The Black Knight]

I just watched the race again and before Seb's first pit stop he was really amateurish. Clashed with Senna in a clumsy move and hit the DRS sign with Ricciardo in front. Before safety car Vettel was 25 seconds behind Hamilton, they then pitted him after all his clumsiness and put him on softer compound with a new wing. He then ended up 21st behind Paul DiResta ( a net 15 seconds) but pretty much all that time lost in his pitstop was negated. He then stupidly past Grosjean off the track, another amateurish move, he should know better, gave it back and past properly on the next lap. He then breezed past the Toro Rosso of Vergne, which just gave way to him, and the Caterhams but around this point his driving began to improve and he drove a fine last 2/3's of the race.

Mark helped him out by helping Massa spin, so he didn't have to overtake Massa and then the team pitted Mark to get him out of Seb's way. That put him up into 6th. After first round of pit stops he ended up 2nd. He then made his pit stop which skipped him over Grosjean, DiResta, Perez and Webber which left him 15 seconds behind Button and 24 behind the lead. The second safety car incident happened on his out lap which mean that all his time he lost in the second pit stop was gone and the 15 seconds to Button was just wiped out.

Could lady luck shine your way any more? I can't imagine any better way the cards could have fallen for him. If racing were a game of poker, then last Sunday Vettel received the Royal Flush.

[F1boat]

Keep repeating that to yourself, if it makes you feel better ;)

[kfzmeister]

Keep repeating that to yourself, if it makes you feel better ;)

Was there something wrong with that in depth recap of Black Knight?

[zako85]

Indeed, looking at the list of drivers that Vettel did not have to overtake in a hand to hand combat:

Massa
Webber
Rosberg
STRs
many others.

He did overtake Button, and that was significant. If the championship comes down to the difference in just a few points, this will help.

[CaptainRaiden]

Was there something wrong with that in depth recap of Black Knight?

I can betcha his Vettel love only made him read the first and the last sentences. Everything in the middle was a blur. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Indeed, looking at the list of drivers that Vettel did not have to overtake in a hand to hand combat:

Massa
Webber
Rosberg
STRs
many others.

Indeed. Add Lewis to that list as well. If the Mclaren had held itself together and finished the race, and if other midfield guys like Rosberg or Massa would have had their normal race, Vettel would have barely gotten even into the top 5. I think people are not realizing how much of the seconds gap the two safety car periods negated. Without those, I think he'd have barely entered even the top 10. And I'm being as unbiased as I can, because I believe Vettel is a very good driver, top tier in the least, but you can't deny that he lucked out big time at Abu Dhabi.

The drive was okay, but not great. There have been others much better but aren't given the credit. For example, because of Mclaren's ultra heart pleasing mechanical feck-ups, Kimi had to suffer in qualifying and do these back of the grid to front salvage drives all throughout 2005 and 2006. Kimi's run from dead last at the back of the grid to 3rd at Bahrain 2006 (without DRS or safety car periods) springs to mind. Or even Schumacher's run from the back to 5th at Monaco 2006 was better than what Vettel did at Abu Dhabi.

There are certainly quite a lot of particulars like that to take into consideration. That may be a great point to carry up. I supply the ideas above as normal inspiration however clearly there are questions like the one you bring up where an important thing shall be working in sincere good faith. I don?t know if greatest practices have emerged round issues like that, but I'm sure that your job is clearly identified as a good game. Both girls and boys really feel the influence of only a second’s pleasure, for the remainder of their lives. well done!

[The Black Knight]

Its just my opinion. Not taking anything away from him as a driver. He made mistakes early on and the incidents from then on in the race came to his favor. That happens in racing, but I don't agree it was his finest race. If anything I am defending his talent there by suggesting he is better than we saw in the last race. Don't be so touchy.

Agreed completely. Vettel is a vastly superior driver to the one he showed last Sunday. The last 2/3's of the race he was back to his best but the rest of the race was nowhere near the level we know he can perform at. I think it's just that some people get carried away and assume that just because he started last and finished 3rd that it must have been a great drive. Getting carried away they then automatically assign driver of the race to him, kinda like Button last year in Canada, without looking at the race in its entirety. David Coulthard is one of the main protagonists for this kind of mentality, and he of all people should know better, but it's also one of the reasons I don't put much faith in him as a commentator.

[F1boat]

I can betcha his Vettel love only made him read the first and the last sentences. Everything in the middle was a blur. ;)

Actually I have read many comments about the race, including from professional experts like in the BBC website. The consensus is that Vettel had a great drive - assisted by luck, yes, but he was there to benefit from the issues of other drivers. My personal opinion is that Seb showed that he will be a richly deserving champion this year. He never gave up, not even after the problems which he had with Senna and Ricciardo and showed a great determination. He never stopped pushing. About overtaking, I didn't count them, but read that there were about 30 or so. You can say that this is not impressive, it is your opinion, but allow me not to agree with it. I also think that it is funny that most of the Sen-deniers are disgruntled Lewis fans. You guys are very funny - Lewis leads a flag to flag victory (like in Monza). and you sing what perfect immaculate drive it is. Seb does so in Japan, Korea and India and you mumble - it's the car. Lewis gets from last to 8th (Spain) and you get a hard-on and say what great drive it was. Seb gets from last to 3rd and you again mumble - it is luck. You have double standards and you want to convince yourself that your boy is better, but the numbers so far tell a different story and you can't change that. You can only whine and that's what you do. I'd just say, however, that if you admit that Seb is a great driver and had a great racer in Abu Dhabi, it won't kill you or something. I say that from personal experience - I have congratulated Hamilton when he does good and I am still alive ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Actually I have read many comments about the race, including from professional experts like in the BBC website. The consensus is that Vettel had a great drive - assisted by luck, yes, but he was there to benefit from the issues of other drivers.

And that automatically nets him the drive of the day. Wow, great logic there. Even if the first part of the race was clumsy by him, still nobody is denying he had a good race for the latter half, but it's not as astronomical as Vettel fans are making it out to be.


My personal opinion is that Seb showed that he will be a richly deserving champion this year. He never gave up, not even after the problems which he had with Senna and Ricciardo and showed a great determination. He never stopped pushing.

Problems of his own doing. Nobody forced him to go bang into Senna or take out the DRS board behind the safety car. Both brain farts, both clumsy. Also, it's not so difficult to push in one of the fastest cars on the grid on a track with two DRS zones, and the midfield cars tangling with each other providing a nice little gift of two safety cars.


About overtaking, I didn't count them, but read that there were about 30 or so. You can say that this is not impressive, it is your opinion, but allow me not to agree with it.

You do realize that the second safety car period happened just after he exited the pits, after which almost ALL the cars in front of him HAD to come in for their second pit stop. The safety car not only negated about 22 seconds of deficit he would have had to the nearest car ahead, it also meant he could just cruise by while all the other cars pitted. Do you just look at all of it like "Goo, Vettel started last and finished third, goo," without looking at the facts? Do you have any idea how many sub 1:43 laps he would have had to do to even make a dent into a gap of 22 seconds? It would have destroyed his tires completely. Forget about that, let's take Lewis out of the equation, before the first safety car period, Alonso in third was easily 25+ seconds ahead. The safety car period negated that advantage, twice, and in the end Seb finished only 3.5 seconds behind, and not because of his pace. If you can't see that, then you're either blind or plain delusional.

But well, I'm sure all this is going to be ignored again.


I also think that it is funny that most of the Sen-deniers are disgruntled Lewis fans. You guys are very funny - Lewis leads a flag to flag victory (like in Monza). and you sing what perfect immaculate drive it is. Seb does so in Japan, Korea and India and you mumble - it's the car. Lewis gets from last to 8th (Spain) and you get a hard-on and say what great drive it was. Seb gets from last to 3rd and you again mumble - it is luck. You have double standards and you want to convince yourself that your boy is better, but the numbers so far tell a different story and you can't change that. You can only whine and that's what you do. I'd just say, however, that if you admit that Seb is a great driver and had a great racer in Abu Dhabi, it won't kill you or something. I say that from personal experience - I have congratulated Hamilton when he does good and I am still alive ;)

I'm sorry to say this, but that's just weird and delusional clap trap of the highest order. I don't know what you're smoking, but it's possibly gotten some dried up Kool-aid on it. Please check before lighting up next time.

It seems you're angry at the world that they don't share the same man-love that you have for Vettel. Tough luck bro.

I don't think anybody here went bananas over Lewis' 8th place in Spain, certainly not me. If any Lewis fans did, then they are as annoying as Vettel fans orgasming over Abu Dhabi. I'm guessing you're again reading Lewis "fans" comments on Planet F1 and mistaking us with them. In this case, I'd suggest a good investment in reading glasses or perhaps improving your comprehension and differentiating skills.

[The Black Knight]

Actually I have read many comments about the race, including from professional experts like in the BBC website. The consensus is that Vettel had a great drive - assisted by luck, yes, but he was there to benefit from the issues of other drivers. My personal opinion is that Seb showed that he will be a richly deserving champion this year. He never gave up, not even after the problems which he had with Senna and Ricciardo and showed a great determination. He never stopped pushing. About overtaking, I didn't count them, but read that there were about 30 or so. You can say that this is not impressive, it is your opinion, but allow me not to agree with it. I also think that it is funny that most of the Sen-deniers are disgruntled Lewis fans. You guys are very funny - Lewis leads a flag to flag victory (like in Monza). and you sing what perfect immaculate drive it is. Seb does so in Japan, Korea and India and you mumble - it's the car. Lewis gets from last to 8th (Spain) and you get a hard-on and say what great drive it was. Seb gets from last to 3rd and you again mumble - it is luck. You have double standards and you want to convince yourself that your boy is better, but the numbers so far tell a different story and you can't change that. You can only whine and that's what you do. I'd just say, however, that if you admit that Seb is a great driver and had a great racer in Abu Dhabi, it won't kill you or something. I say that from personal experience - I have congratulated Hamilton when he does good and I am still alive ;)

You're very much a case of seeing what you want to see opposed to seeing what is in front of you.

[Bagwan]

Geez , isn't this weird ?
We have a difference of opinion on whether it was a great drive .

Vettel fans think it was , and Lewis fans think it wasn't .

As a big fan of neither , I will submit that it was a great drive .
It wasn't the greatest , but he did go from the back to third .

Yes , he was helped by safety cars as others were disadvantaged .
Yes , he had issues early , and as a result , was out of sync , therefore set perfectly to take advantage of the safety cars .

But he still had to drive the race , make some passes , and keep it all together , despite having had the un-settling wing replacement early on .

I can't imagine what doing a lap with a broken wing , after a touch with another car might be like , with your pit asking , clueless , as to how much damage there is on your car , and if it still feels ok .
Then , how distracting to the focus would it be to have you , while still assessing damage , move in a little too close to the guy ahead in the safety car line-up , and have him brake heavily when you don't expect it , just after a turn onto a straight , breaking your front wing completely as you take avoidance ?

I think I , myself , might find this a tad un-settling , and it just might upset my focus a little bit .

However , as you Lewis fans have stated , the second half of the race had Sebastian doing a good , if not great job .

So , in that light , it was pretty amazing that he kept it together after such a tumultuous start , and turned it around later , wasn't it ?


Personally , I found it a pretty entertaining race .
Too bad Lewis left early , making Lewis fans surly , which made F1boat squirrely , Shirley .

[SGWilko]

which made F1boat squirrely , Shirley .

I think he picked the wrong week to quit sniffing glue! ;)

PS - don't call me surely.

[The Black Knight]

Firstly the only comparison between Vettel and Hamilton fans came from F1boat. Who is a fan of who is irrelevant. Nobody here claimed it was a poor drive from Vettel but myself and Black Knight said it 'wasn't his greatest' to date. I don't think that is a controversial thing to say. I've seen Vettel drive better in the past. Horner claimed it to be one of Vettel's greatest drives and it was that statement that I disagreed on.

You have also said it 'wasn't the greatest' so you have not said anything different from us. The fact you claim not to be a fan of either means you are unlikely to get attacked for that view whereas we will, because of who we tend to support. All rather petty IMO.


Well, to be honest, it was a poor drive by his standards, but it's still a lot better than what half the grid can manage on any given day.

[F1boat]

First of all, I want to apologize for the clumsy quotes, but fact is that I can't find the function on the forum, hence the look of my post. I'll try to answer you all. :)

Henners:
"What a complete and utter over reaction of pure ramble. Rather than listening to the justified responses crediting Seb and the suggestion his talent is proven to be better than the last race, it's just the usual anti Hamilton dribble."
I didn't post anything about Lewis Hamilton. His drive was nice while it lasted. I comment that his fans are the first to discredit Vettel. Bagwan seems to have noticed that too. Note that he writes: "Vettel fans think it was , and Lewis fans think it wasn't ."

CaptainRaiden:
First of all, I think that Kimi Raikkonen was the best driver in Abu Dhabi. This does not contradict my opinion that Vettel had a great drive, however. You quoted the circumstances which helped him. However, I knew that he had luck in parts of the race. He, however, was able to benefit from it due to his fantastic driving. He even managed to survive his own mistakes. I personally think that this is very impressive. I certainly don't agree that the his race was "poor", not even for his own standards, as Black Knight suggests. And if Horner, his boss, thinks as me... well, you can draw your own conclusions ;)
About whether you like Seb or not. I don't care about that, honestly. But I think that your life as a fan would be much less miserable, however, if you learn to admit when he does well, because boy, he will do well in many years to come.
About the "smoking" and "Kool-Aid" remarks, congratulations, you sound like Rush Limbaugh. And not to insult anyone, but the reaction of you and henners confirms my impression that I hit a sore spot with my opinion of Lewis fans trying to discredit what Seb achieved.
Cheers to all :)

[The Black Knight]

First of all, I want to apologize for the clumsy quotes, but fact is that I can't find the function on the forum, hence the look of my post. I'll try to answer you all. :)

Henners:
"What a complete and utter over reaction of pure ramble. Rather than listening to the justified responses crediting Seb and the suggestion his talent is proven to be better than the last race, it's just the usual anti Hamilton dribble."
I didn't post anything about Lewis Hamilton. His drive was nice while it lasted. I comment that his fans are the first to discredit Vettel. Bagwan seems to have noticed that too. Note that he writes: "Vettel fans think it was , and Lewis fans think it wasn't ."

CaptainRaiden:
First of all, I think that Kimi Raikkonen was the best driver in Abu Dhabi. This does not contradict my opinion that Vettel had a great drive, however. You quoted the circumstances which helped him. However, I knew that he had luck in parts of the race. He, however, was able to benefit from it due to his fantastic driving. He even managed to survive his own mistakes. I personally think that this is very impressive. I certainly don't agree that the his race was "poor", not even for his own standards, as Black Knight suggests. And if Horner, his boss, thinks as me... well, you can draw your own conclusions ;)
About whether you like Seb or not. I don't care about that, honestly. But I think that your life as a fan would be much less miserable, however, if you learn to admit when he does well, because boy, he will do well in many years to come.
About the "smoking" and "Kool-Aid" remarks, congratulations, you sound like Rush Limbaugh. And not to insult anyone, but the reaction of you and henners confirms my impression that I hit a sore spot with my opinion of Lewis fans trying to discredit what Seb achieved.
Cheers to all :)

Horner thinks the sun shines out of Vettel's arse. Do you also think that as well?

Horner, like most team bosses, will stand up for his driver when the going gets tough, just like he did in Malaysia this year when Vettel came across Narain and punctured his tire, even though clearly it was Vettel's fault. But I guess you think otherwise because Horner does, and that makes you right :rolleyes:

[Bagwan]

Horner , of course , is going to defend his driver . That should be no surprise .
But , by Sebastian's statement when DC asked him if he expected to be on the podium , and his words from the cockpit being an "I told you so" , I don't think there were many in the team who really believed he would get to the front but himself .
So , perhaps Horner might be forgiven for being a bit "over the moon" about his driver , given that it sounds like he didn't think he'd be anywhere in this race .

[F1boat]

Horner thinks the sun shines out of Vettel's arse. Do you also think that as well?

Horner, like most team bosses, will stand up for his driver when the going gets tough, just like he did in Malaysia this year when Vettel came across Narain and punctured his tire, even though clearly it was Vettel's fault. But I guess you think otherwise because Horner does, and that makes you right :rolleyes:

Curiously, the FIA judges did not share your opinion that Vettel was at fault in Malaysia. In this one I too side with Horner ;)

[Bagwan]

Firstly the only comparison between Vettel and Hamilton fans came from F1boat. Who is a fan of who is irrelevant. Nobody here claimed it was a poor drive from Vettel but myself and Black Knight said it 'wasn't his greatest' to date. I don't think that is a controversial thing to say. I've seen Vettel drive better in the past. Horner claimed it to be one of Vettel's greatest drives and it was that statement that I disagreed on.

You have also said it 'wasn't the greatest' so you have not said anything different from us. The fact you claim not to be a fan of either means you are unlikely to get attacked for that view whereas we will, because of who we tend to support. All rather petty IMO.

You guys (Wilko , Knight , Captain , and yourself) are tireless defenders of your driver , Lewis , aren't you ?
You are all Hamilton fans , as I understand it .

I don't think it's because you are all fans of Lewis , that you are "attacked" .
In fact , it seems a little more like an attack by you guys on Seb , and his defender here , F1boat .

He sees a double-standard situation , and , whether that's true or not doesn't really matter .
It's how he sees it .

To some it was a great drive because of the recovery , and to some it was a great drive , but tainted , because of the issues early on that some described as "clumsy" .

What might have been a desperately difficult race , given those issues , turned into a great drive , aided by luck .
Can we agree on that ?

[F1boat]

What might have been a desperately difficult race , given those issues , turned into a great drive , aided by luck .
Can we agree on that ?

That's what I actually claim...

[Bagwan]

That's what I actually claim...

I know .
And pretty entertaining , eh ?

[F1boat]

Well, in the end that's why we go to forums, to have fun and discuss things :D

[Bagwan]

Well, to be honest, it was a poor drive by his standards, but it's still a lot better than what half the grid can manage on any given day.

I missed commenting on this post earlier , and feel I should mention it now .

Geat post . Even better than Vettel's drive .

Something I also missed when talking about Horner earlier , was that Horner is ultimately responsible for having Sebastion at the back of the grid in the first place , so , undoubtedly would be rather relieved that his driver got him back some of the points he had thought he'd lost him .

His demeanor in the podium interviews was a touch arrogant , though , and won't do him any favours .
He does need to remember he's driving a car which is expected to win .

[Bagwan]

Well, in the end that's why we go to forums, to have fun and discuss things :D

While what you say is true(this time , at least...heehee), I wasn't talking about the debate .

I was talking about the race .

[CaptainRaiden]

Geez , isn't this weird ?
We have a difference of opinion on whether it was a great drive .

Vettel fans think it was , and Lewis fans think it wasn't .

Wrong. If you go back through the pages of this thread, you'll find that a plethora of different fans (non-Lewis fans just to make it clear) didn't think it was a great drive. Only a handful of Vettel fans truly believe it was a "great" drive.


Yes , he was helped by safety cars as others were disadvantaged .
Yes , he had issues early , and as a result , was out of sync , therefore set perfectly to take advantage of the safety cars .

Issues because of his own brain farts. How does a driver make two clumsy mistakes, luck out with two safety car periods and still get driver of the day is beyond me.


But he still had to drive the race , make some passes , and keep it all together , despite having had the un-settling wing replacement early on .

I agree. It is quite difficult to drive around Caterhams and Marussias in a Red Bull on two DRS straights. Also, what was especially tricky was overtaking cars after the second safety car period as they piled into the pit lane. No problems in overtaking Grosjean as well. Gotta give him the Button overtake for sure. After Lewis showed what can be possible with that Mclaren in his hands, Button should be ashamed of himself for finishing outside the podium.


I can't imagine what doing a lap with a broken wing , after a touch with another car might be like , with your pit asking , clueless , as to how much damage there is on your car , and if it still feels ok .

Not saying that it's a piece of cake, but several drivers have run multiple laps with damaged wings and broken endplates in several races, some even this year.


Then , how distracting to the focus would it be to have you , while still assessing damage , move in a little too close to the guy ahead in the safety car line-up , and have him brake heavily when you don't expect it , just after a turn onto a straight , breaking your front wing completely as you take avoidance ?

That was completely Vettel's fault, nobody else's. Behind a safety car, it's the driver behind's job to keep a safe distance to the car ahead. Vettel has a history of having brain farts behind safety cars.


However , as you Lewis fans have stated , the second half of the race had Sebastian doing a good , if not great job .

So , in that light , it was pretty amazing that he kept it together after such a tumultuous start , and turned it around later , wasn't it ?

All he had to do was stay out of trouble and not tangle with cars ahead and keep running his usual pace. The second safety car pretty much presented 10 cars on a silver platter to him. Webber and Perez made sure he wasn't going to be bothered with faster cars in the mid part as well.


Personally , I found it a pretty entertaining race .

It was an enthralling race. Would have been a Lewis cakewalk if Mclaren could manage to manufacture a car which can finish one freaking race without any issues. Lewis winning, no Massa spin and Rosberg having no issues would have meant Vettel would have finished 6th. Not so great then, eh? :) Now with his front wing change, if there weren't any safety cars.............................................. ...the mind boggles. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

CaptainRaiden:
First of all, I think that Kimi Raikkonen was the best driver in Abu Dhabi. This does not contradict my opinion that Vettel had a great drive, however. You quoted the circumstances which helped him. However, I knew that he had luck in parts of the race. He, however, was able to benefit from it due to his fantastic driving. He even managed to survive his own mistakes. I personally think that this is very impressive.

Let me get this straight. So, Vettel the superman overtook the Caterhams, HRTs and Marussias (cars equal to Red Bull in performance), then the deficit to the front running teams reduced because of his ultra fast laps magically, THEN he made two mistakes (not his wrongdoing of course), then had an emergency pit stop, dropped to the back of the grid, ate the deficit of 22 seconds to the next car, and 30+ seconds to the frontrunners simply by bum rushing the Red Bull 2 seconds a lap faster than the entire field in like 10 laps, overtook EVERY SINGLE car one by one with his immense overtaking prowess, with NO safety car periods and NO attrition, and finished third. If that is what happened, then sure, it's the drive of the race. Wait, it's the drive of the year!


I certainly don't agree that the his race was "poor", not even for his own standards, as Black Knight suggests. And if Horner, his boss, thinks as me... well, you can draw your own conclusions ;)

Oh, because Horner said it! Jeez, now we have to take Horner's unbiased word on it surely? Although, you know, I think the opinion will truly be considered unbiased if HellSlut Marko can chip in his super unbiased opinion on Vettel's drive too. Then it's set in stone. Not that Horner and Marko have their heads so far up Vettel's ass that they can see the sunshine through his teeth, but that's another topic.


About whether you like Seb or not. I don't care about that, honestly. But I think that your life as a fan would be much less miserable, however, if you learn to admit when he does well, because boy, he will do well in many years to come.

LOL, this is getting funnier. I feel like I'm being terrorized into admitting Vettel had the best drive ever at Abu Dhabi. Like there's no wrong answer, the only one truth is that Vettel is the second coming of Jesus.


About the "smoking" and "Kool-Aid" remarks, congratulations, you sound like Rush Limbaugh. And not to insult anyone, but the reaction of you and henners confirms my impression that I hit a sore spot with my opinion of Lewis fans trying to discredit what Seb achieved.
Cheers to all :)

Learn to take jokes. It might help immensely in the real world.

[F1boat]

One day you may even be able to give credit to Lewis when he does well like I do with your favourite driver ;)

I do think that he is one of the best drivers in modern era and I remember well that I was among the first to congratulate him for his WDC after the 2008 Brazilian GP and I respect his driving in this and previous seasons :)
Captain, welcome to my ignore list. You join Garry Walker there. Nothing more to say really.

[CaptainRaiden]

Captain, welcome to my ignore list. You join Garry Walker there. Nothing more to say really.

http://tx.english-ch.com/teacher/len/ctonL-02-oh-no.gif

Is that where Garry was all this time? Did he died? :(

[The Black Knight]

Curiously, the FIA judges did not share your opinion that Vettel was at fault in Malaysia. In this one I too side with Horner ;)

No surprise there.

The FIA have been wrong on numerous occasions and you should learn to think for yourself and form your own opinion.

[Mia 01]

IMO currently the best drivers are Seb, Fred, Kimi and Lewis. On a given day one of them are the best driver for that race. Last race Kimi was for me the best driver a splendid race with the fourth best car on the grid. As long as it lasted Lewis was also good driving steady from the front, an ordinary drive for him. Seb did very very good, by all standars, starting last an finish third is that during all circumstances.

[The Black Knight]

IMO currently the best drivers are Seb, Fred, Kimi and Lewis. On a given day one of them are the best driver for that race. Last race Kimi was for me the best driver a splendid race with the fourth best car on the grid. As long as it lasted Lewis was also good driving steady from the front, an ordinary drive for him. Seb did very very good, by all standars, starting last an finish third is that during all circumstances.

I pretty much agree with this except for the part about Lewis. There was nothing ordinary about the way he was driving and he was demolishing his teammate once again but there's no surprise there really. We all know it was a great drive from Seb but it was lucky still and it wasn't drive of the race.

[F1boat]

No surprise there.

The FIA have been wrong on numerous occasions and you should learn to think for yourself and form your own opinion.

I have my opinion - I thought that Narain is to blame immediately after the crash and the decision from the FIA is similar. Which shows that it is more likely that I am right, because FIA judges understand the sport much better than any of us.
About the drive of Lewis in Abu Dhabi, he was looked very good compared to Button, despite the small mistake in the beginning of the race, much like Kimi, Fernando and Seb, who looked very quick compared to Romain, Felipe and Mark Webber. I agree with Mia that these four are the best of the best in the sport.

[The Black Knight]

I have my opinion - I thought that Narain is to blame immediately after the crash and the decision from the FIA is similar. Which shows that it is more likely that I am right, because FIA judges understand the sport much better than any of us.
About the drive of Lewis in Abu Dhabi, he was looked very good compared to Button, despite the small mistake in the beginning of the race, much like Kimi, Fernando and Seb, who looked very quick compared to Romain, Felipe and Mark Webber. I agree with Mia that these four are the best of the best in the sport.

It was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen by FIA stewards, almost up there with Belgium 08, but then again since the FIA disagree on that as well you probably do too.

[F1boat]

It was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen by FIA stewards, almost up there with Belgium 08, but then again since the FIA disagree on that as well you probably do too.

I honestly can't say who is right and who is wrong on that case. About Malaysia I am 100% sure that FIA made the right decision.

[F1boat]

You'd be hard pressed to find anybody who doesn't agree they are the best, surely?

Yes. The order in which fans put these four vary, however.

[The Black Knight]

I agree. Narain being blamed for Vettel turning in too early was a complete farce in Malaysia and so was the decision in Spa 2008. The latter being one of the first times where fans of all drivers/teams were universally appalled by a decision. The FIA took a lot of flack for that and knew they had damaged their reputation. Stewarding was changed almost over night after that.

The thing about the decision in Malaysia is that it was an example to me of Vettel being given a pat on the back and told he was right even though it was glaringly obvious he was wrong and not for the first time. The drivers were unanimous in their support of Narain as well but unfortunately, much like Turkey 10, Vettel got support from his team insisting he was correct when he wasn't, but worse about Malaysia is that the FIA backed it up. At least when Hamilton messes up he admits it, which is something I really respect about him but it's the one stand out thing that has made me not support Vettel throughout the last few years. It's always the other persons fault. I hope he changes that as otherwise he's a thoroughly pleasant chap.

[Knock-on]

I think they were worried about giving Seb a penalty for causing a collission. Would have taken the fun out of it ;)

[Bagwan]

I didn't bring this into the conversation. Who I am a fan of is irrelevant and I say that again. This comparison was not between Seb and Lewis and I made no connection whatsoever. We were discussing Seb's drive what I said was good, but not his finest/greatest. We all know how good Vettel is and we've seen him drive better. He is a great drivers, one of the best. I don't think that is a display of me being anti Seb and the fact it has been twisted that way says more about those making the accusation than myself. Of course Bagwan I'm not accusing you of anything. I know where you stand and where you are likely to throw your support. We don't often agree and this is yet another one of those times.

Ah , Henners , I've always been a devil's advocate .
I'll always wander in and help someone who is being jumped on , if there's a shred of evidence that they've got a point worth making , and that's what I perceived was happening here .

But , I guess I made a mistake here , pointing to you guys as Lewis fans , as the relevence of which is debateable .
That debate gets in the way of making the point that , depending on where you sit , the drive was both great , and not so great .

I can see both sides here , I think . It has been spelled out rather well from both viewpoints .
I think the fact that it has been explained rather caustically a few times is as much the reason for my entering this conversation as anything .

There just aint no need for things to get nasty(not that you have been at all) .

I frankly , don't really know on which side I sit , and so , I'd have to say we both agree and disagree on this one .

[Bagwan]

I say lets try to move on. A great drive by Seb on the day. Some say his greatest drive to date. Some of us say he's driven much better in the past. The real driver of the race was Kimi Raikkonen, so well done Kimi for making it back to the front :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I say , I say , good idea old chap .

I wholeheartedly agree on Raikkonen .
And , well done also to Kimi for the best quote of the year with "Leave me alone . I know what I'm doing ." .

[F1boat]

I have to agree about Kimi... he was simply awesome :)

[Bagwan]

I have to agree about Kimi... he was simply awesome :)

What do you mean by saying "was" .
Are you trying to say he's finished ? Really ? All washed up then , is he ?

Damn , I just can believe you said that , you , you , you ..............I hope your stinkin' boat sinks !!!!!



Oh , you meant he was awesome in the race . Oh .
Geez .

Sorry about that boat comment .
Boats are nice .
Honest , I like boats .
Boats are cool , too . Did I mention that ?

I bet Kimi has a boat because he's cool , and boats are cool , and I think he'd have one .

[CaptainRaiden]

Sorry about that boat comment .
Boats are nice .
Honest , I like boats .
Boats are cool , too . Did I mention that ?

I bet Kimi has a boat because he's cool , and boats are cool , and I think he'd have one .

http://i.qkme.me/36fjxr.jpg

[F1boat]

What do you mean by saying "was" .
Are you trying to say he's finished ?

In WRC, maybe ;)

[The Black Knight]

JV also believes Vettel was lucky. The numbers are piling up now.




Sebastian Vettel still an immature F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104210)

[Tazio]

Righteous read.....bro! :up: :)

[SGWilko]

You guys (Wilko , Knight , Captain , and yourself) are tireless defenders of your driver , Lewis , aren't you ?
You are all Hamilton fans , as I understand it .

What the chuff did I do? Leave me out of it TVM.

[Tazio]

You guys (Wilko , Knight , Captain , and yourself) are tireless defenders of your driver , Lewis , aren't you ?
You are all Hamilton fans , as I understand it .



What the chuff did I do? Leave me out of it TVM.

They're Hamiltonians ;)

[Bagwan]

What the chuff did I do? Leave me out of it TVM.

Hey , at least I got the "k" in "Wilko" right this time .
That's good , isn't it ?

And , you are a Hammy fan , aren't you ?

It isn't like it's a crime , or something seedy now , is it ?

[Bagwan]

They're Hamiltonians ;)

Lewisians .

[Tazio]

Lewisians .

oooh...ooo...ooo...wait no..ooo...I have it..."Bosstonians" :dork: :)

Of course I guess that makes me an Alonsonian. :angryfire :p :

[SGWilko]

Hey , at least I got the "k" in "Wilko" right this time .
That's good , isn't it ?

Well done!


And , you are a Hammy fan , aren't you ?

Oh yes, as he has that same do or die spirit that Mansell had. I don't get all misty eyed over him though.


It isn't like it's a crime , or something seedy now , is it ?

Nope, but I'd rather you don't lump me with the 'fanboy' stereotypical collective, that's all.

[F1boat]

JV also believes Vettel was lucky. The numbers are piling up now.
Sebastian Vettel still an immature F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104210)

Speaking about the numbers...

International media heap praise on Vettel for Abu Dhabi drive | YallaF1.com (http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/06/international-media-heap-praise-on-vettel-for-abu-dhabi-drive/)

"F1 legend Niki Lauda; “For me, Vettel and Alonso are in the same league.”
;)

[The Black Knight]

Speaking about the numbers...

International media heap praise on Vettel for Abu Dhabi drive | YallaF1.com (http://www.yallaf1.com/2012/11/06/international-media-heap-praise-on-vettel-for-abu-dhabi-drive/)

"F1 legend Niki Lauda; “For me, Vettel and Alonso are in the same league.”
;)

For sure, if you don't think about the race (and most journalists don't) it looks like a great drive and it was a really good drive from 1/3 of the way in but it pales in comparison to the way Alonso has looked all year. Vettel may very well be on the same level as Alonso but he hasn't shown it this year if he is and I think both Vettel and Hamilton have a lot to prove if either are to be regarded as being on that level as there have been very few drivers in history that are Alonso good. As is the case historically, there have always been people who are willing to jump to conclusions and put others in that bracket. It's similar with football and people comparing Cristiano Ronaldo to Pele and other greats etc when he is clearly not THAT good. Vettel may very well be there but, personally, I don't see it yet.

As for Lauda, he works for a German TV station and since Alonso is the benchmark by whom all are measured by these days, it's no surprise to see him spouting this with the finish line in sight in the title race.

[The Black Knight]

James Allen also agrees: Was Vettel (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/was-vettel-lucky-in-abu-dhabi-race-strategy-analysis/)

[The Black Knight]

Lucky? From pitlane to podium - the full story of Sebastian Vettel's Abu Dhabi GP | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/8226959/Lucky-From-pitlane-to-podium-the-full-story-of-Sebastian-Vettel-s-Abu-Dhabi-GP)

Lap Forty: "I think Sebastian Vettel's middle name must be lucky," comments Martin Brundle as the 25-year-old, running with a brand new set of the softs, cruises up to the rear of Jenson Button's McLaren. The Englishman, like the two drivers ahead of him, is running on the slower but more durable mediums having started the race on the soft compound he set his fastest qualifying time with. "Vettel could win this," predicts the Sky Sports F1 pundit.


Should I continue? Many more of these comments online from plenty of sources. Anyone who looks at this race objectively can see there was luck involved in this result.

[F1boat]

Nobody can deny that there was luck involved in the result. I however, marvel at your ability to discredit every single opinion which is pro Vettel. For example you take what Lauda says and dismiss it only because he works for RTL - this is the same Niki Lauda who after Monza claimed that Renault has cost the championship for Seb. When Italian and Spanish journalists say good things about him it is because "they don't think about the race". But when some British journalists say something bad about Vettel, they are objective. If this is not a double standard from you, I don't know what is. I wonder why it is so hard for you to accept the suggestion of Bagwan - that Seb had a great race, assisted by luck? Why the huge effort to call everybody who was impressed from the kid "biased', "not caring about the race", or "blind"? For me it is disgusting, but everybody has a right of an opinion, I guess.

[F1boat]

I enjoy reading Lauda's quotes as he doesn't usually pull any punches.

Same here :-)

[The Black Knight]

Nobody can deny that there was luck involved in the result. I however, marvel at your ability to discredit every single opinion which is pro Vettel. For example you take what Lauda says and dismiss it only because he works for RTL - this is the same Niki Lauda who after Monza claimed that Renault has cost the championship for Seb. When Italian and Spanish journalists say good things about him it is because "they don't think about the race". But when some British journalists say something bad about Vettel, they are objective. If this is not a double standard from you, I don't know what is. I wonder why it is so hard for you to accept the suggestion of Bagwan - that Seb had a great race, assisted by luck? Why the huge effort to call everybody who was impressed from the kid "biased', "not caring about the race", or "blind"? For me it is disgusting, but everybody has a right of an opinion, I guess.

There you go. If you had said that at the beginning we wouldn't have had the last couple of pages of rigmarole we have had. The issue with you is that you seem not to read the posts too clearly. You make assumptions based on what you expect people to say rather than what we actually say. I have said on numerous occasions that Seb is a brilliant driver and I have agreed that after the first 1/3 of the race he drove very well on Sunday. I don't agree that Seb had a great race. A great race is where someone drives without mistake lap after lap. That is the benchmark by which a great race should be measured. Doing 2/3 a good race and acting like an amateur for the first 1/3 should not be measured as a great drive. Is F1 the pinnacle of motor sport or are we accepting anything less than brilliance these days? Seb was not brilliant in Abu Dhabi. Alonso has been brilliant the entire year. I am not denying Seb's a brilliant driver, I am denying that he was brilliant in Abu Dhabi - he drove a reasonably good one assisted by lots of luck.

Anyone who regards that race in Abu Dhabi as a brilliant drive from Seb is wrong because amateur driving should not be a benchmark for greatness. There was too much of that from Seb in AD. And it doesn't matter if the journalist is Spanish, Italian, British (I've already said I'm not a fan of DC), if you look at the race in AD objectively it was not Seb's finest and should therefore not be regarded as great. He drove a far greater race in India for example. That was a superb drive. Singapore was also a great drive from him and although luck did play a factor in it due to Lewis failure, there was no mistakes from him and he kept Lewis honest the whole time. Those were both superb drives, not his half farcical race in AD.

[F1boat]

Anyone who regards that race in Abu Dhabi as a brilliant drive from Seb is wrong

And again you state your opinion as gospel. I suggest that in this one we have to agree to disagree. I don't think that we should continue the argument.
Not to mention that all of you ignore how unlucky Seb was in Saturday, but are quick to remind about the lucky breaks in Sunday. The truth is that it is very difficult to win without some lucky breaks and Hamilton is the prime example of that. Without luck you are nowhere. Actually I remember that a long time ago Lauda said (while he was still driving) that luck is sometimes the only difference between a very good driver and a world champion.
But the Abu Dhabi race is over, I guess that all people who watched it can make their own conclusions. For me, what Seb did was great. Maybe it was not enough for you.

[The Black Knight]

And again you state your opinion as gospel. I suggest that in this one we have to agree to disagree. I don't think that we should continue the argument.
Not to mention that all of you ignore how unlucky Seb was in Saturday, but are quick to remind about the lucky breaks in Sunday. The truth is that it is very difficult to win without some lucky breaks and Hamilton is the prime example of that. Without luck you are nowhere. Actually I remember that a long time ago Lauda said (while he was still driving) that luck is sometimes the only difference between a very good driver and a world champion.
But the Abu Dhabi race is over, I guess that all people who watched it can make their own conclusions. For me, what Seb did was great. Maybe it was not enough for you.

And again you're rather selective towards what it is that you respond.

That's fine by me. I don't think we're getting anywhere here anyway. It's just a good way for me to pass some time at work ;)

Final thing I will say about it is that on Saturday that Seb was unlucky but it's rare that bad luck hits him and his Sunday more than made up for it but bad luck on Saturday has nothing to do with whether he drove a great race on Sunday or not.

[F1boat]

Henners, it depends really :-) I once read a whole thread about Lauda and the bad things about him is that sometimes he talks one things in front of one audience and different in front of another. But one thing about his statement is difficult to ignore - if Lewis succeeds with Mercedes he will be rated much better. I personally will be very, very impressed. For me the best ever is Schumacher and I doubt that I will see a driver, who will impress me more, but if Lewis makes Mercedes champions it will be one hell of an achievement. Enough to make him one of the all time greats.
Black, I understand what you said, but although I think that you are biased against Seb the main problem is that we have a different definition of great. I'll give you a rather mundane example from a video game I like to play - "Tekken". When you beat your rival and he is unable to even touch you, the game announces that it is a "PERFECT" match for you. But when you are badly beaten and have a tiny bit of health remaining and you still manage to bounce back and beat your rival, the game announces "GREAT". So I think that while Vettel's race wasn't PEFRECT, because he made (small IMO) mistakes with Bruno and Daniel, I think that his race was "GREAT", because he survived them and managed to claim that podium. For me this was a legendary drive. And the lucky breaks simply negated the bad luck he suffered in qualifying - I think that he deserved that breaks. I hope that you understand me now.

[The Black Knight]

Henners, it depends really :-) I once read a whole thread about Lauda and the bad things about him is that sometimes he talks one things in front of one audience and different in front of another. But one thing about his statement is difficult to ignore - if Lewis succeeds with Mercedes he will be rated much better. I personally will be very, very impressed. For me the best ever is Schumacher and I doubt that I will see a driver, who will impress me more, but if Lewis makes Mercedes champions it will be one hell of an achievement. Enough to make him one of the all time greats.
Black, I understand what you said, but although I think that you are biased against Seb the main problem is that we have a different definition of great. I'll give you a rather mundane example from a video game I like to play - "Tekken". When you beat your rival and he is unable to even touch you, the game announces that it is a "PERFECT" match for you. But when you are badly beaten and have a tiny bit of health remaining and you still manage to bounce back and beat your rival, the game announces "GREAT". So I think that while Vettel's race wasn't PEFRECT, because he made (small IMO) mistakes with Bruno and Daniel, I think that his race was "GREAT", because he survived them and managed to claim that podium. For me this was a legendary drive. And the lucky breaks simply negated the bad luck he suffered in qualifying - I think that he deserved that breaks. I hope that you understand me now.

I have played Tekken many a time. I appreciate an analogy but coming back from the brink of defeat like you describe in the game is not lucky it's grit and skill. If Vettel had done what he did on Sunday without so much help on the way then I too would be hailing it as a great drive. You might think be biased, and as I said Seb isn't my favorite driver, nor do I rate him as highly as Alonso or Lewis, but even had Alonso or Lewis had that drive on Sunday that Seb had I would not be labeling it as a great drive. Last year I found it completely ridiculous with everyone labeling Button as man of the race in Canada even though for most of the race he was nowhere and he made a hash of most of it but just happened to have a car perfect for the conditions in the last 12-15 laps. Meanwhile, Schumacher drove what was probably the best race since his return that weekend and was balls to the wall, inch perfect almost the entire way. Some people just get carried away with the winner and excitement I guess without considering everything else that happened throughout so I feel a little perspective goes a long way and I think that drivers who drove the best races throughout deserve the most credit. Seb may have "survived" adversity but with the way the cards fell it was pretty hard for him to not survive it.

Anyway, I think we have both clarified our positions and neither are going to change our minds ;)

[Bagwan]

And again you're rather selective towards what it is that you respond.

That's fine by me. I don't think we're getting anywhere here anyway. It's just a good way for me to pass some time at work ;)

Final thing I will say about it is that on Saturday that Seb was unlucky but it's rare that bad luck hits him and his Sunday more than made up for it but bad luck on Saturday has nothing to do with whether he drove a great race on Sunday or not.

See , the thing is , though , Mr. Knight , you did make a pretty broad statement in saying "Anyone who regards that race in Abu Dhabi as a brilliant drive from Seb is wrong." .

I think we have to remember that everything we write is up for criticism .
While what you wrote may , indeed , be your opinion , it got in the way of the message .

My mistake earlier on in the thread was to inadvertently shift the focus off what I wanted to point out , by mentioning Lewis .

My poor attempt at humour a while back was an effort to put across that the mis-interpretation of even one word as simple as "was" can cause wars .


I think F1boat is willing to give him a little more credit than you , regarding where he started , and how much that can destabilize the mental state of the driver .
And , regardless how the events that required the wing change occurred , it was an un-scheduled wing change , and that would have had him flipping out behind the wheel .

Add in the analysis of the broken car in traffic , and the mental state takes a beating .

Remember , he is an arrogant little guy , stating in the podium interviews that he expected to be there .

Jacques is right to say he can be prone to making mistakes if under pressure , I think , but I think some credit has to be given for the amount of pressure he withstood in the end , even if he was aided greatly by luck .

I see all you guys as right , frankly .

[F1boat]

Anyway, I think we have both clarified our positions and neither are going to change our minds ;)

Yes, and for the record I was among the fans who considered the victory of Jenson Button in Montreal to be great - to be honest I still think that this was the best race in his career. As I said, the problem is about what we define as "great" - it is a subjective term unlike, for example, "perfect", which is pretty clear. And, just for the fun of it, sometimes you have luck in video games - in "Soul Calibur" one of my CPU rivals jumped off the arena for no good reason :D

[F1boat]

As I said to Black - maybe we find different things which define one race as great. He showed enormous determination, much like Seb in Abu Dhabi, and was relentless, very impressive. I liked his move on Lewis - Lewis was typical himself - "I'll overtake now and you will move out of my way", while Jenson was like - "Oh no, you don't!". And I loved that! It was about time for someone not to make way for Lewis! IMO, of course - you know that I was not a fan of his overtaking maneuvers last year, in which he seems to force his way into non-existing gap and bully the other driver into giving up the position. Jenson showed that he can't be bullied. I liked that.
I don't remember the accident with Alonso. Meaning I remember that there was some contact, but not what exactly happened.
And I am a fan of Jenson, too! You probably remember than in 2009 I wanted him to win the WDC and not Seb.

[The Black Knight]

Yes, and for the record I was among the fans who considered the victory of Jenson Button in Montreal to be great - to be honest I still think that this was the best race in his career. As I said, the problem is about what we define as "great" - it is a subjective term unlike, for example, "perfect", which is pretty clear. And, just for the fun of it, sometimes you have luck in video games - in "Soul Calibur" one of my CPU rivals jumped off the arena for no good reason :D

Sure can have luck in video games just I would regard Tekken as being one of those games you're least likely to have it. That aside though, Japan last year was a much better race from Button. He was great in that race. I really felt he deserved and earned that win and I was delighted for him.

[The Black Knight]

As I said to Black - maybe we find different things which define one race as great. He showed enormous determination, much like Seb in Abu Dhabi, and was relentless, very impressive. I liked his move on Lewis - Lewis was typical himself - "I'll overtake now and you will move out of my way", while Jenson was like - "Oh no, you don't!". And I loved that! It was about time for someone not to make way for Lewis! IMO, of course - you know that I was not a fan of his overtaking maneuvers last year, in which he seems to force his way into non-existing gap and bully the other driver into giving up the position. Jenson showed that he can't be bullied. I liked that.
I don't remember the accident with Alonso. Meaning I remember that there was some contact, but not what exactly happened.
And I am a fan of Jenson, too! You probably remember than in 2009 I wanted him to win the WDC and not Seb.

Out of interest, what was your opinion of the Valencia incident with Hamilton and Maldonado this year? I know you've clarified this before but I can't remember,

[F1boat]

Sure can have luck in video games just I would regard Tekken as being one of those games you're least likely to have it. That aside though, Japan last year was a much better race from Button. He was great in that race. I really felt he deserved and earned that win and I was delighted for him.

Point taken. His Japanese Grand Prix was awesome last year. About Lewis and Maldonado - Maldonado is to blame. He is one of the riskiest drivers on the grid. Did Lewis made mistake while defending from here? From a racing point of view, no. He had the right to defend himself and should not be expected simply to let Pastor. However, my personal opinion is that he should have anticipated something idiotic from Maldonado. He had something to lose and lost because of it. I remember that in 2005 Alonso preferred not to defend very hard against Montoya, because the risk of accident was too high. On the other hand, drivers should not be forced to let idiots to pass. FIA must be more strict about risky drivers like Maldonado and Grosjean. In conclusion - Pastor is to blame. Yes, Lewis should have anticipated such move from him, but FIA should be there to take action against such moves.

[wedge]

According to JV, Fingers "reacts like a child" Sebastian Vettel still an immature F1 driver - Jacques Villeneuve - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/104210)

*F1boat adds JV to ignore list*

[F1boat]

JV was in my ignore list even as a driver :D