Congrats on your 3rd title

[Garry Walker]

Well, unless something like a miracle happens, nothing can change it anymore. Bad luck for Alonso who has an inferior car means the title is out of his hand. Nothing can stop the best car of the year anymore - RB is just too good for others over the year.
So bieber will get his 3rd title. I couldn't think of a more an undeserved title, but hey, that's life.

[donKey jote]

yep :(

[ShiftingGears]

Very displeased. I would much prefer Alonso to win the championship.

[steveaki13]

Its sad that a driver will win 3 in a row, for the competative nature of F1, but it now looks very very likely.

Congrats to him if he does it, but I think its time for a different champion.

[Garry Walker]

Its sad that a driver will win 3 in a row, for the competative nature of F1, but it now looks very very likely.

Congrats to him if he does it, but I think its time for a different champion.

Red Bull has been the best car by far the last 4 years. The other teams should hire Newey who is one of the biggest reasons behind RB winning. With that car and nr.1 support pretty much every idiot can win a title.

[The Black Knight]

Well, unless something like a miracle happens, nothing can change it anymore. Bad luck for Alonso who has an inferior car means the title is out of his hand. Nothing can stop the best car of the year anymore - RB is just too good for others over the year.
So bieber will get his 3rd title. I couldn't think of a more an undeserved title, but hey, that's life.

Yep, Lewis and Alonso have been the best drivers this year. We have seen this year that Sebastien isn't all that once he has not a superb car underneath him. Lewis would be leading the championship comfortably were it not for all his bad luck, all of which was out of his control. But you'd never know, a win for Lewis and retirement for Seb would put Lewis right back in it. Time will tell. It's not over yet.

[F1boat]

I am very happy that Seb now is close to the lead of the championship and I will be very happy if he wins it, because he really fights like a lion and in my opinion is very likeable. However, things change so quickly in F1, so I wouldn't say that he has already won the championship. 5 intense races remain and the battle with McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus will be extremely interesting IMO.

[DexDexter]

Red Bull has been the best car by far the last 4 years. The other teams should hire Newey who is one of the biggest reasons behind RB winning. With that car and nr.1 support pretty much every idiot can win a title.

That's just not true. Williams have had a very competitive car this year and look at their points tally. A quick car means nothing without quality drivers. Ask Boullier.

[jens]

:) Thanks for the congratulations! Although...

Situations can change rather quickly. Before Valencian GP Vettel and Alonso were roughly on similar points, but Vettel retired and Alonso won - points gap suddenly went large again.

In any case, even though Alonso has driven supremely well this year, I would be happy with Vettel's title and considering how tight the field in 2012 has been, anyone winning it in the end would be deserving. The level of competition is so high that it is truly difficult and challenging for anyone to win the championship - especially as it seems there are 8 teams with at least reasonably fast cars!

Alonso may have lacked some outright car speed at times and Hamilton might have lacked some genuine luck at times, but it has been a challenging year for Vettel too. For much of the season Red Bull hasn't had the car speed advantage like they had in 2010-11. Especially after the ban of some devices RBR was struggling to compete even for podiums on merit on several occasions. But Seb has done the damage limitation - collected the 4ths and 5ths, when the car wasn't that good to avoid dropping out of championship. And now, when it finally looks like RBR has regained some ground and circumstances are again more favourable, he is ready to attack. :)

[zako85]

So bieber will get his 3rd title. I couldn't think of a more an undeserved title, but hey, that's life.

I think this is way too harsh. Vettel got taken out twice out of a race by mechanical problems. Alonso has been taken out twice by a Lotus driver. I'd say that's fair enough..

I wouldn't jump to conclusions, but championship chase looks good for Vettel now.

[zako85]

With that car and nr.1 support pretty much every idiot can win a title.

That's not true IMO. If that was the case, explain why Webber hasn't been finishing reliably right behind Vettel.

[Knock-on]

Vettel may not have had a car advantage for a few races but has for many more and even when the Red Bull hasn't been the fastest car, it has been on pace with the fastest car.

Although Garry makes a reasonable point, you cannot say that the drivers make no difference as if that was the case, Seb would be romping it. Lewis and Alonso have dragged their respective cars up there and although Lewis is pretty much out of it, I hope Alonso carries the fight to Seb as he has driven better than the German this year IMHO.

Also, Ferrari / Fred need to stop moaning about the car. Before this GP they were going on about being off the pace but if Massa can fairly easily cruise to a 2nd place, it can't be that bad.

[DexDexter]

Vettel may not have had a car advantage for a few races but has for many more and even when the Red Bull hasn't been the fastest car, it has been on pace with the fastest car.

Although Garry makes a reasonable point, you cannot say that the drivers make no difference as if that was the case, Seb would be romping it. Lewis and Alonso have dragged their respective cars up there and although Lewis is pretty much out of it, I hope Alonso carries the fight to Seb as he has driven better than the German this year IMHO.

Also, Ferrari / Fred need to stop moaning about the car. Before this GP they were going on about being off the pace but if Massa can fairly easily cruise to a 2nd place, it can't be that bad.

Lewis and Alonso? You forgot Kimi, he's 3rd in the championship.

[F1boat]

Dex, I'd love Seb to win, but if Kimi wins this will be absolutely the greatest and craziest title ever...

[gloomyDAY]

Stop being a cry baby, Garry. You've been on Vettel's case ever since he won his first title. There are still 5 more races to go, and the title is still not won or lost to anyone. I think you just have some problem against Vettel that makes you feel inferior to the guy.

[edv]

Garry..you failed to consider...
5 races left...
5 opportunities for grosjean to take Vettel out of a race on the opening lap.

[Cooper_S]

I have never read such petulant childish rubbish as the opening remark on this thread.

I may be wrong but I'm sure this season gave us the most number of different winners in a season for decades and if Kimi manages a win that will only be extended. It took almost half season before we had a double winner and with 5 races remaining it may be narrowing at the top but it is far from decided.

If, and is still only an if, Vettel does manage to win a 3rd world drivers championship then given the start of the season that would be outstanding (the same can be said if Alonso manages to win his 3rd this season).

If Vettel can win out it will be in part be due to the long seasons we now have which meant he (and his team) had time to recover their poor start.

I want my Champion to be the one that triumphs over all others in a given season even it that means the same driver winning 3 years on the trot (or 5 years for that matter) If all you want is a differen driver then get the FIA to change the rules and ban any driver who wins consecutive championships for one season... hey why stop there why not ban every driver who wins a championship from F1 entirly... presto a new WDC every year.

[kfzmeister]

Well, unless something like a miracle happens, nothing can change it anymore. Bad luck for Alonso who has an inferior car means the title is out of his hand. Nothing can stop the best car of the year anymore - RB is just too good for others over the year.
So bieber will get his 3rd title. I couldn't think of a more an undeserved title, but hey, that's life.

With the way this season has gone, i would hate to come back to this quote of yours at the end of the season. :dozey:

[Somebody]

Dex, I'd love Seb to win, but if Kimi wins this will be absolutely the greatest and craziest title ever...

Oh, I dunno, look at Kimi's 2007 title win, when everyone was focused on the Hamilton/Alonso soap opera and he came from third at the last race to pip them on the line. He's got form on the matter.

Plus, if Grosjean takes both Alonso & Vettel out at a race, and Lotus get their dDRS sorted for qualifying...


Garry..you failed to consider...
5 races left...
5 opportunities for grosjean to take Vettel out of a race on the opening lap.

Nah. He won't get five shots before he's banned again.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Seriously, Garry, you need an attitude adjustment. You've filled up the half of the GP thread with your hateful dribble and now you even open an extra thread for it. You don't like Vettel - WE GOT IT!

If the Red Bull is so superior as you keep yapping about, how come that Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Williams all managed to win races this year? And if any idiot can win the WDC in the RedBull, how come Mark Webber hasn't done so yet?
I agree that after the latest updates, the RB is probably the fastest car at the moment, but for most of the season the fastest car on paper was actually the McLaren. How come they don't lead the championship.

Face it, no matter how much you hate Vettel, along with Hamilton,Raikkönen and Alonso, he's one of the best drivers in the field. When it comes to sheer driving brilliance, Alonso sure had the edge over Vettel this year, but if the WDC was decided on sheer driving talent, Schumacher would have 10 WDCs and slowpokes like Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve would have none. Winning the WDC always requires talent AND a good car.

And as others said already, the season isn't over yet. As long as Grosjean is still active each of the rivals can suffer an early exit from a race.

[The Black Knight]

Seriously, Garry, you need an attitude adjustment. You've filled up the half of the GP thread with your hateful dribble and now you even open an extra thread for it. You don't like Vettel - WE GOT IT!

If the Red Bull is so superior as you keep yapping about, how come that Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Williams all managed to win races this year? And if any idiot can win the WDC in the RedBull, how come Mark Webber hasn't done so yet?
I agree that after the latest updates, the RB is probably the fastest car at the moment, but for most of the season the fastest car on paper was actually the McLaren. How come they don't lead the championship.

Face it, no matter how much you hate Vettel, along with Hamilton,Raikkönen and Alonso, he's one of the best drivers in the field. When it comes to sheer driving brilliance, Alonso sure had the edge over Vettel this year, but if the WDC was decided on sheer driving talent, Schumacher would have 10 WDCs and slowpokes like Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve would have none. Winning the WDC always requires talent AND a good car.

And as others said already, the season isn't over yet. As long as Grosjean is still active each of the rivals can suffer an early exit from a race.

What annoys me about Vettel is that he could very well win three in a row without really having proved himself. We all know he is better than Mark but by and large since (this season excluded where cars are more level) the middle of the 2009 season RBR have had the best car. I don't believe Vettel has proven himself to be that good to deserve 3 titles. If he wins this year the records will show him as an all time great without him ever really after proving or showing what he can do in an uncompetitive car. Italy 2008 being the exception, for me he has never shown he could repeat that. He has driven some superb races this year but no performances ever stood out to me as being worthy of brilliance. When he has the car he leads out front and is unstoppable but, barring his excellent qualifying abilities, he hasn't shown himself to be the complete product to me. He might do this in time but he needs to move team and show what he can do as Schuey did in a Ferrari and Senna in a Lotus and inferior 93 McLaren, Alonso this year and last and Hamilton in 2009 and 2010 inferior McLarens.

Alonso and Hamilton have proved their abilities even though they both have less championships than Vettel does. Bar the finger he puts up after a race I have no issues with Vettel and he seems a thoroughly pleasant chap so this is no gripe with him, but the status of greatness should be earned not simply handed out to someone. And just to be clear Alonso has proved over the last two years that he is a great time and time again as far as I'm concerned. Hamilton still has a bit of work to do in this area I feel but he has done more than Vettel in his career to date. I'm really excited at the prospect of seeing him at Mercedes next year doing it the hard way, opposed to Vettel taking the easy route to three titles.

By right, Lewis Hamilton should be comfortably leading this years championship. 4 DNF's which were out of his control, and about 20 or so points at least lost in McLaren pitstop blunders. If he is not WDC this year then it's not because McLaren don't have the quickest car as they have had for a lot of the season, it's because McLaren haven't been consistent. This inconsistency is the reason they haven't won a WCC in 14 years and why I'm glad Hamilton is moving as I believe when Mercedes become a force they will be a far more consistent outfit.

[dj_bytedisaster]

What annoys me about Vettel is that he could very well win three in a row without really having proved himself.

...

Alonso and Hamilton have proved their abilities even though they both have less championships than Vettel does. Bar the finger he puts up after a race I have no issues with Vettel and he seems a thoroughly pleasant chap so this is no gripe with him, but the status of greatness should be earned not simply handed out to someone.

I can't really agree with that. Vettel came into F1 just shortly after stopping to soil his diapers. He drove the BMW into the points at his first ever GP and he's collected more points in the Torro Rosso than any driver before or since. I would agree with you that Alonso is probably a bit better still, but that doesn't mean he's never proven himself. Piquet and Prost collected 3 and 4 WDC collectively, while the undisputedly best driver at the time was Senna - are they undeserving?
And when did Hamilton prove himself? They plopped him down into a front-running car from his very first Grandprix. He had it even easier than Vettel and if he hadn't made such a monkey's breakfast of last season with his attitude, Vettel wouldn't have romped away with it like that either.
Maybe Vettel has not proven himself as spectacularly as Schumacher at Ferrari or Alonso at Renault, but that doesn't mean he only wins because of the car. Remember that even the greats like Senna needed the best car in the field to win the WDC. Senna had some spectacular races in the Lotus and the godawful 1993 McLaren, but he didn't win the WDC in them. He won in the years in which the McLaren was head and shoulders above the rest, so this whole argument doesn't really hold water.

[Donney]

Things don't look that good for Alonso and Ferrari, but I still have hopes they can win the championship. This season has been a thriller and it seems the end won't fail to disappoint.

[The Black Knight]

I can't really agree with that. Vettel came into F1 just shortly after stopping to soil his diapers. He drove the BMW into the points at his first ever GP and he's collected more points in the Torro Rosso than any driver before or since. I would agree with you that Alonso is probably a bit better still, but that doesn't mean he's never proven himself. Piquet and Prost collected 3 and 4 WDC collectively, while the undisputedly best driver at the time was Senna - are they undeserving?
And when did Hamilton prove himself? They plopped him down into a front-running car from his very first Grandprix. He had it even easier than Vettel and if he hadn't made such a monkey's breakfast of last season with his attitude, Vettel wouldn't have romped away with it like that either.
Maybe Vettel has not proven himself as spectacularly as Schumacher at Ferrari or Alonso at Renault, but that doesn't mean he only wins because of the car. Remember that even the greats like Senna needed the best car in the field to win the WDC. Senna had some spectacular races in the Lotus and the godawful 1993 McLaren, but he didn't win the WDC in them. He won in the years in which the McLaren was head and shoulders above the rest, so this whole argument doesn't really hold water.

You should read posts properly before replying to them.

[dj_bytedisaster]

You should read posts properly before replying to them.

And you should elaborate on why you think I didn't ;)

[The Black Knight]

And you should elaborate on why you think I didn't ;)

I stated that "Hamilton still has a bit of work to do in this area I feel but he has done more than Vettel in his career to date" .

[The Black Knight]

I agree with most of what you are saying but the bit I have quoted is just nonsense IMO. Hamilton and Vettel had very similar approaches to the sport in the fact they were both snapped up at an early age by large investors. Vettel was supported through the Red Bull driver devlopment program as was Hamilton at McLaren. They both proved why they were worthy of a top drive and neither have had it easy. They both had to prove they could convert races into wins regardless of what they were driving. Many drivers land in top teams, but its the best who ultimately know how to win IMO. Both drivers have more than proved their abilities on track.

I agree with what you have said but Vettel has had to struggle less in recent times and was able to waltz away with last years championships. Lewis has never had that kind of consistent advantage in machinery that Vettel has enjoyed and Lewis also beat a two time WDC in his first year in F1. Alonso himself has said that he rates Hamilton higher than Vettel. There is no doubting Vettel is a brilliant driver and one of the best on the grid but even if he gets 3 WDC's under his belt this year I still won't believe he is good as Alonso or Hamilton, he simply hasn't proven it yet. I think he has the ability though so we'll see in time :)

[zako85]

All of this complaining about how Vettel hasn't yet proven "enough" to be given a championship winning car sounds biased and fanboyish, despite the Night's and Walker's best efforts to sound like they're not prejudiced. This notion is a straw man setup to begin with, and one of the silliest things posted here. It's worded carefully, so that say Nigel Mansell's 1992 WDC in hyper-dominant car is fine because after all he had proven enough by then. Ditto Schumacher in 2004, 2002, etc. However, there is somehow a problem with Vettel's WDCs because he hasn't proven enough yet. Why don't we try the reverse argument. If someone has proven himself, why should this driver be given a dominant car? Wouldn't that only magnify their field advantage?

The way I see it, Vettel has proven more than enough in 2008 at Toro Rosso and in 2010 at RedBull, and frankly this year he has been great too. So far, RedBulls had something like 5 wins and 4 poles this year. McLarens had 5 wins and 6 poles. Where is this super Red Bull dominance that everyone is talking about?

[Knock-on]

Vettel is great in a fast car. One of the very fastest as most people would agree.

The problem is, as a couple of people have alluded to, that when he isn't in the fastest car, he looks a little shakey. He doesn't have the racing 'nouse' that Hamilton or Alonso has IMHO.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Vettel is great in a fast car. One of the very fastest as most people would agree.

The problem is, as a couple of people have alluded to, that when he isn't in the fastest car, he looks a little shakey. He doesn't have the racing 'nouse' that Hamilton or Alonso has IMHO.

That is only partially true. For most parts of this season, he wasn't in the fastest car as for quite some parts of it the McLaren was faster or at least equal. Still he didn't look particularly shakey. He didn't win consistently, but he drove good enough to over come two technical DNF's and still be in title contention.
The thing that most people detest is, how dominant he was in 2011. It is obvious that the RB was the best car last year, but that still doesn't explain why Mark merely managed one single win in it. Even if you have the best car, you still need the 'nouse' to take it to a win.

The one, who really 'proved' himself is Alonso. He took the Minardi's to positions in the field where they didn't belong. Then he went on to make the midfield Renault a championship winning car, spelling an end to Schumachers dominance in the process.
In a way it is true that Vettel and Hamilton had it easier, coming in as protegés of two major F1 players. But that doesn't mean they were spoon-fed. If anything, you could apply that branding to Hamilton. He had a front-running car from his first ever GP and frankly with the options he's had, he should have at least 2 WDC if not more. If anything, he's the one who has to prove anything. More often than less his attitude gets in his way and impedes his raw talent.
Vettels way into F1 is a bit of both. He had it easy in the way that RB money let him storm through the Junior formulae, but once he was in F1 he had to prove his mettle in a mediocre car. Normally you see the Torro Rosso in minor points scoring positions or behind in the midfield. Only Vettel managed to get that thing to positions like 4 or 5 in 2008 - not to forget the win in Monza. Even if it was down to nailing the setup spot-on. He still had to beat all other cars and you don't find a perfect setup without the drivers input either ;)

So saying that Vettel won those WDC too easily is rubbish. In 2010 he won it in the last race against two opponents, who had way better chances to walk away with it. He delivered a flawless race when other teams botched their strategy or drivers failed to get pas Petrov. Only in 2011 had he had the best car, but then there's still your team-mate to beat.

Discarding a WDC because it was won in a dominant car is rubbish. If that logic holds true, you have to discard Senna in 1988, Mansell in 1992, Prost in 1993, Hill in 1996 and Villeneuve in 1997, because they were also won in utterly superior cars, more superior perhaps than last years RedBull.

[F1boat]

For me it is very sad that people try to diminish the success of Seb. First of all, he is still very young. To achieve so much so early in your life is phenomenal. Second of all, he won his first world championship in a really heroic way - he had awful reliability, he had a strong teammate and he was against the driver, who is considered to be the best in the sport - Alonso, in the most successful team in history - Ferrari. Third, his second world championship is also legendary - such dominance we have witnessed only from Michael Schumacher in 2001, 2002 and 2004 and from Nigel Mansell in 1992. And while the Red Bull was the best car last year, I don't think that it was as dominant as the golden age Ferrari or the golden age Williams-Renault. Fourth, this year he has a car which is sometimes fastest, but sometimes not allowing him to compete even for podiums and he is still up there, fighting for the championship. I think that people simply don't want to admit that he might be better than their favorite drivers Alonso and Hamilton and that's why they try to diminish his success. This is, in my opinion, not only stupid, but disrespectful and ugly. And finally - if, and it is a very big if, Seb wins his third WDC this year, he would prove himself as one of the all-time greatest, despite what haters and armchair experts may say. Even if he doesn't, he still proved that he is one of the very best drivers today. IMO the best, actually.

[steveaki13]

I think its a bit of everything.

Some here are saying that Seb is only good in a good car. Well to be honest most drivers only actually win the title in the best 1 or 2 cars.

But I think Seb is more than that. He is one of the best and if he wins a third title he and Red Bull will become two of the all time greats in F1 history. He is not only good in a good car he is good at the front of the field. In the Red Bull and Toro Rosso when he has started towards the front he can race well and score massive points. He had a few 4ths & 5ths I think in 2007 & 2008 in the Toro Rosso. When he starts further back in either slower cars or faster cars he struggles and can make mistakes. Just my impression.

We have seen Alonso be able to race any car into a decent position for that car, I will be interested to see how Hamilton copes for the first time with a potential midfield car.

I know in 2009 Mclaren were slow at the beginning, but with a team like Mclaren he must have been confident his racing at the back was only temporary. Next year it might be a long haul and we will see how he manages like most do earlier in his career.

[AndyL]

Some here are saying that Seb is only good in a good car. Well to be honest most drivers only actually win the title in the best 1 or 2 cars.

Only twice has the WDC been won in a car that was outside the top 2 in the constructors championship: Keke Rosberg in a Williams in 1982 and Nelson Piquet in a Brabham in 1983.

[Cooper_S]

Rosberg and Piquet, two name that role off the tounge when people discuss F1's greatest drivers...

[AndyL]

Rosberg and Piquet, two name that role off the tounge when people discuss F1's greatest drivers...

Yes quite :) When it has happened it was probably more about the particular combination of circumstances than the greatness of the drivers. You need the opposing teams' drivers to be evenly matched, while your own team-mate is weak and makes little contribution to the team's score. Rosberg had that with Derek Daly. Piquet's team-mate was Patrese, who was no mug of course, but suffered terrible unreliability in 1983. If Alonso achieves the feat this year you would have to say he will have been helped by the same circumstances.
But the telling point is that all the past greats have won their championships in a car that was at least good, if not very good.

[dj_bytedisaster]

People seem to be obsessed with finding a measure for "greatness" and comparing drivers against each other. Fact is that everyone, who manages to become World Champion is a good driver. Some, like Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve were basically handed the thing on a silver plate, because their cars could run rings around the opposition, but the fact is that they still had to drive them faster than anyone else.
There are a few, who we consider the 'greats' because they would have been fast in a motorized shopping cart. But that doesn't mean the 'non-greats' were mugs. I generally don't consider Damon Hill a particularly talented driver, but watch the 1997 Hungarian GP - That's an inspired drive if I ever saw one.

[wedge]

If Fingers is WDC then he deserves it. He maximised the car when Newey & co got on top with development.


People seem to be obsessed with finding a measure for "greatness" and comparing drivers against each other. Fact is that everyone, who manages to become World Champion is a good driver. Some, like Nigel Mansell, Damon Hill or Jacques Villeneuve were basically handed the thing on a silver plate, because their cars could run rings around the opposition, but the fact is that they still had to drive them faster than anyone else.
There are a few, who we consider the 'greats' because they would have been fast in a motorized shopping cart. But that doesn't mean the 'non-greats' were mugs. I generally don't consider Damon Hill a particularly talented driver, but watch the 1997 Hungarian GP - That's an inspired drive if I ever saw one.

Greatness comes from driving at a very high level at a consistent basis, maximising the car regardless if you have the best or not - that's what separates the greats and the not so greats.

Vettel is an odd one.

I agree he has not replicated the feats of his first win in 2008.

His race-craft has been questioned and the Pirelli era has arguably made great drives redundant.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Fingers is WDC then he deserves it. He maximised the car when Newey & co got on top with development.

Greatness comes from driving at a very high level at a consistent basis, maximising the car regardless if you have the best or not - that's what separates the greats and the not so greats.

Vettel is an odd one.

I agree he has not replicated the feats of his first win in 2008.

His race-craft has been questioned and the Pirelli era has arguably made great drives redundant.

That's full of win. I think the only chance for anyone to deliver a truly epic drive would be torrential rain, like Senna at Donnington '93 or Schumachers romp in Barcelona '96. With Pirelli's comedy tires it has become all about setup and conserving tires and making them work in the first place. While it was epic to have 6 different winners in the first 6 races, it was basically down to the fact that whoever had most luck with tire temperatures, won and most likely was absolutely nowhere the next race.

That has seriously reduced the impact of the driver. In the olden days, when tires were made of tritanium and could almost last an entire race, you could see people thrashing their car around as if survival had gone out of style to drive around a slightly wonky setup. You try that today or get the setup even slightly wrong, you're nowhere. Just ask Lewis about his Suszuka race.

[heliocastroneves#3]

Vettel is a good driver but I don't think Webber and Massa are less as good as he is. Vettel has sponsors and his age with him... Webber started his career at Minardi and let's face it, Red Bull does like their young superstar Sebastian much more than him. Felipe Massa was also one of those great drivers, Kimi never completely outpaced him but since his accident and Fernando Alonso had become his teammate, this man had a hard time to recover. Also the fact that he had to let Alonso pass him during the 2010 German Grand Prix really damaged his ego that much.... I think he will be more successful with Sauber if they continue to build such great cars in the future like they did for this season. Also we got to mention that Sebastian Vettel isn't the championship leader yet, I don't understand why people do already think that Seb is going to get his third consecutive drivers championship to be honest..

[ShiftingGears]

I generally don't consider Damon Hill a particularly talented driver, but watch the 1997 Hungarian GP - That's an inspired drive if I ever saw one.

I would have been a great victory, but don't discount that Arrows were one of the only teams (the only team?) on Bridgestones. I daresay that was more of a factor than anything Damon did.

[ShiftingGears]

I agree he has not replicated the feats of his first win in 2008.

I disagree. The fact it was a Toro Rosso does not negate the fact that they had an amazing car that weekend. Bourdais was on the second row.


His race-craft has been questioned and the Pirelli era has arguably made great drives redundant.

I tend to agree. I haven't seen anything to suggest his ability to go wheel-to-wheel is at the same level as Hamilton, Raikkonen or Alonso.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I disagree. The fact it was a Toro Rosso does not negate the fact that they had an amazing car that weekend. Bourdais was on the second row.


But Bourdais was also a second slower in Q3 and ended up nowhere in the race.


I tend to agree. I haven't seen anything to suggest his ability to go wheel-to-wheel is at the same level as Hamilton, Raikkonen or Alonso.

But mainly because he never needed to. Most of 2011 he never needed to fight as he simply romped away at raw speed. Just watch him Overtake Alonso at Monza 2011. Even though Alonso almost shoved him off the road, he floored it with two wheels on the grass. When the same thing happened in 2012 with reversed roles, Alonso immediately cried a river on the team radio. He had his fair share of hefty overtaking manovres, but he rarely needed to apply that talent in the last 3 years. I didn't see Lewis pull too many great manovres at Suzuka. Alonso once got trounced by Heidfeld on the outside of a corner. Even the greatest drivers are useless if their car isn't up to the job.
And the fact is that, if Vettels car is crap, he'll start in the midfield and usually stay there to pick up the positions by strategy or attrition and when his car is good, he usually starts in the front row. Drivers with no wheel-to-wheel talent crash into others when in the field. It's not something that Vettel is particularly known for, like - let's say - Maldonado or Grosjean.

[wedge]

I disagree. The fact it was a Toro Rosso does not negate the fact that they had an amazing car that weekend. Bourdais was on the second row.

The race had changing conditions - a great test to any driver - wet start, drying track and the odd sprinkle of rain.



I tend to agree. I haven't seen anything to suggest his ability to go wheel-to-wheel is at the same level as Hamilton, Raikkonen or Alonso.

The pass on the grass in last year's Italian GP.

Passed a number of cars at the Belgian GP but did so against Webber with ruthless efficiency.


He reminds me a bit of Piquet Sr.

[kfzmeister]

But Bourdais was also a second slower in Q3 and ended up nowhere in the race.


Yuji Ide was better than Bourdais! :D

[Garry Walker]

That's just not true. Williams have had a very competitive car this year and look at their points tally. A quick car means nothing without quality drivers. Ask Boullier.
Williams has been nowhere near the car the RB has been. That said, of course someone like Alonso would have done far more with that car.


. For much of the season Red Bull hasn't had the car speed advantage like they had in 2010-11. Especially after the ban of some devices RBR was struggling to compete even for podiums on merit on several occasions. But Seb has done the damage limitation - collected the 4ths and 5ths, when the car wasn't that good to avoid dropping out of championship. And now, when it finally looks like RBR has regained some ground and circumstances are again more favourable, he is ready to attack. :)
RB has been right on the pace of leaders or the fastest car the whole year. Has there actually been a race where they have had a car that was not competitive? I don't remember that being the case. No other team has been that good.


Stop being a cry baby, Garry. You've been on Vettel's case ever since he won his first title. There are still 5 more races to go, and the title is still not won or lost to anyone. I think you just have some problem against Vettel that makes you feel inferior to the guy.
Inferior to bieber? LOL!!!.


Garry..you failed to consider...
5 races left...
5 opportunities for grosjean to take Vettel out of a race on the opening lap.
Well, I would be very very happy if that happened.


I have never read such petulant childish rubbish as the opening remark on this thread.
Dude, you need to change your tampon.


Seriously, Garry, you need an attitude adjustment.
Yeah, sure I am going to listen to "advice" from someone like you. Good one dude.



If the Red Bull is so superior as you keep yapping about, how come that Ferrari, McLaren, Mercedes and Williams all managed to win races this year? Because the RB drivers have usually been mediocre. In addition to that, RB has not been by far the fastest car in every race. But they have always been very competitive and right on the pace of leaders.



And if any idiot can win the WDC in the RedBull, how come Mark Webber hasn't done so yet? He is not the golden boy of the team.



I agree that after the latest updates, the RB is probably the fastest car at the moment, but for most of the season the fastest car on paper was actually the McLaren. How come they don't lead the championship.
1) RB has been far superior to McLaren this year.
2) Probably the fastest car? Yeah and the sun is probably bigger than the moon and I am probably smarter than you.


That is only partially true. For most parts of this season, he wasn't in the fastest car as for quite some parts of it the McLaren was faster or at least equal. Still he didn't look particularly shakey. He didn't win consistently, but he drove good enough to over come two technical DNF's and still be in title contention.
The thing that most people detest is, how dominant he was in 2011. It is obvious that the RB was the best car last year, but that still doesn't explain why Mark merely managed one single win in it. Even if you have the best car, you still need the 'nouse' to take it to a win.
By all accounts Webber was beyond awful last year. Maybe being the clear nr.2 of the team had something to do with that.


But Bourdais was also a second slower in Q3 and ended up nowhere in the race. Bourdais stalled his car at the start.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Williams has been nowhere near the car the RB has been. That said, of course someone like Alonso would have done far more with that car.

Alonso would have done more than most others in a motorized wheelie bin, but the fact is that the Williams is a decent car and only the fact that Senna and Maldonado seem to have learned their trade at crash test derby's is responsible for their modest points tally.


RB has been right on the pace of leaders or the fastest car the whole year. Has there actually been a race where they have had a car that was not competitive? I don't remember that being the case. No other team has been that good.

Well 'not competitive' is a relative term. They had some races where they struggled to keep up, especially at the start of the season, where no team had any clue what to make of Pirelli's comedy tires. The only ones, who were always at the front or near it were Alonso through sheer driving brilliance and the McLarens, which I think had a small, but visible advantage over Red Bull at the start of the season.



Inferior to bieber? LOL!!!.
Who's Bieber? Didn't hear of any driver by that name.



Dude, you need to change your tampon.
You seem to be a man of experience. I let you in on a secret. Most of us other dudes don't actually need one. The only ever time we we get close to one is when we eat out the missus while she has her monthly visitor. But look at the practical side. That way you can have dessert and floss your teeth afterwards.



Yeah, sure I am going to listen to "advice" from someone like you. Good one dude.
That pretty much sums you up Garry. If you run out of useful arguments, which you more often than not don't have to begin with, you react with ad hominem attacks. Don't be surprised if you get fed some of your own medicine.


Because the RB drivers have usually been mediocre. In addition to that, RB has not been by far the fastest car in every race. But they have always been very competitive and right on the pace of leaders.
How can a driver be mediocre AND always very competitive. That makes even less sense than your usual stuff.


He is not the golden boy of the team.
Neither is Vettel or at least hasn't been from the start. If you remember 2010 it was actually Webber, who was their best shot at the title. Vettel caught him in the very last race. Ferrari botched up Alonso's strategy and Webber didn't get past Vitali Petrov. Except for Monaco, not getting past a Russian pay driver while sitting in one of the best cars of the field is a fail.
Once Vettel was WDC, he was at least slight favourite in the team and that's a normal thing. Webber is closer to the end of his career than to the start of it, while Vettel has many years ahead of him. In which driver would you invest as a team boss?



1) RB has been far superior to McLaren this year.
2) Probably the fastest car? Yeah and the sun is probably bigger than the moon and I am probably smarter than you.

1) Did we see the same season? McLaren was at least on par with Red Bull, if not faster at at least half the races so far.
2) I would doubt both.


By all accounts Webber was beyond awful last year. Maybe being the clear nr.2 of the team had something to do with that.
Maybe having always been inconsistent throughout most of his career has something to do with it as well. Webber can be brilliant in one race (storming from 18th to 3rd in last years China GP comes to mind) and the next race we would fail to make up a single position from 7th on the grid.


Bourdais stalled his car at the start.
I know, but he still ended 18th. If the car was so brilliant as some insinuate, he should have made up a few positions, especially since overtaking at Monza isn't particularly difficult.

[kfzmeister]

Who's Bieber? Didn't hear of any driver by that name.


aka Fingers. :D

[Cooper_S]

Dude, you need to change your tampon.


Calm down fella... This is a motorsport forum and you bring nothing but filth and hate... have you really nothing of more value to say.

[gloomyDAY]

Garry, been taking PR advice from Lewis Hamilton?

[nigelred5]

Thanks for congratulating Fernando Alonzo on winning his third WDC title! :)

[wedge]

RB has been right on the pace of leaders or the fastest car the whole year. Has there actually been a race where they have had a car that was not competitive? I don't remember that being the case. No other team has been that good.


Spain was the only blight.

IMO being competitive means strong performance over a GP weekend. If the car was better over a single lap Fingers would be, well, doing his finger-thing more often.

[zako85]

I will repeat this question. If RedBull has been the fastest car the whole year, how come it has 5 wins and 4 pole positions to McLaren's 5 wins and 6 pole positions so far? Granted, Vettel's car broke down once with him in the lead, while McLaren botched more than once Hamilton's pit stops. The way I see it, McLaren had a very fast car that on an average weekend was competitive with RedBulls. Until just a few races before now, Hamilton was very much in contention to fight for the championship. Looking at the table of results here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_season#Constructors.27_standings) , again I fail to see a consistent RedBull dominance throughout the year. McLaren was right up there with RBR the whole time. In fact, if Massa's did a better job and earned half the points Alonso has, Ferrari would had more points than McLaren. Finally, if RedBull chassis is so fast that any idiot can drive it and win, how come Vettel's number two driver can't at least finish reliably right behind Vettel?

[The Black Knight]

I will repeat this question. If RedBull has been the fastest car the whole year, how come it has 5 wins and 4 pole positions to McLaren's 5 wins and 6 pole positions so far? Granted, Vettel's car broke down once with him in the lead, while McLaren botched more than once Hamilton's pit stops. The way I see it, McLaren had a very fast car that on an average weekend was competitive with RedBulls. Until just a few races before now, Hamilton was very much in contention to fight for the championship. Looking at the table of results here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Formula_One_season#Constructors.27_standings) , again I fail to see a consistent RedBull dominance throughout the year. McLaren was right up there with RBR the whole time. In fact, if Massa's did a better job and earned half the points Alonso has, Ferrari would had more points than McLaren. Finally, if RedBull chassis is so fast that any idiot can drive it and win, how come Vettel's number two driver can't at least finish reliably right behind Vettel?

The McLaren, and RBR's have been very level this year, the only issue is that McLaren as a team keep making mistakes with either set up, pit stops, strategy etc. RBR on the other hand make the most of their strategies and races. They are better than McLaren in this area. There's always something with them and that's why I'm happy Hammy is moving as he would be leading the championship now were it not for his team.

[Knock-on]

Calm down fella... This is a motorsport forum and you bring nothing but filth and hate... have you really nothing of more value to say.

Really? I'm no defender of Garry as everyone knows but he fights a good fight and defends his opinion to the hilt. Even if he backs up his opinion with more opinion, it is at least reasoned unlike some on here and his posts have value for discussion.

If you're upset about the tampon quip, you will be spitting condoms at DJ's response :D

[Knock-on]

The McLaren, and RBR's have been very level this year, the only issue is that McLaren as a team keep making mistakes with either set up, pit stops, strategy etc. RBR on the other hand make the most of their strategies and races. They are better than McLaren in this area. There's always something with them and that's why I'm happy Hammy is moving as he would be leading the championship now were it not for his team.

I'm just tipping over the other side of the fence. I think RB has the edge this year and is ultimately the best car out there but it's just my view and impossible to prove.

As for McLaren, there have been too many mistakes this year. A few howlers but overall there seems to be an uncharacteristic amount of little errors which really pains me.

Lewis is moving on and I am sure he will do well with Mercedes but McLaren need to regroup and rebuild. With the spygate and the $100m fine, Ron moving on, the explosion of the car business, the disentanglement of Mercedes and some high profile driver issues, they need to take a step back and baseline before moving two steps forward IMHO.

This is the best F1 team in the world and they will bounce back but it just feels like a firmer hand on direction may be required.

[The Black Knight]

I'm just tipping over the other side of the fence. I think RB has the edge this year and is ultimately the best car out there but it's just my view and impossible to prove.

As for McLaren, there have been too many mistakes this year. A few howlers but overall there seems to be an uncharacteristic amount of little errors which really pains me.

Lewis is moving on and I am sure he will do well with Mercedes but McLaren need to regroup and rebuild. With the spygate and the $100m fine, Ron moving on, the explosion of the car business, the disentanglement of Mercedes and some high profile driver issues, they need to take a step back and baseline before moving two steps forward IMHO.

This is the best F1 team in the world and they will bounce back but it just feels like a firmer hand on direction may be required.

14 years since their last F1 WCC, they are slowly becoming the nearly men of F1. Some years they have had the best car or their car has been there or thereabouts but they never pull it together throughout the course of a season and make too many stupid mistakes which cost them time and time again. Lewis should be a 3 time WDC by now but instead he only has one. I hope they do bounce back but they need to do so quickly because if they don't then surely the time will eventually come where Whitmarsh has to step aside for someone else. That's not to say he hasn't done a good job, but not as good as say Christian Horner has done. It's up to him to take a firm hold of the situation and sort things out but every year the same stupid mistakes creep in over and over again, remove the errors and show their proper potential.

[F1boat]

Hammy is moving as he would be leading the championship now were it not for his team.

He wouldn't have in a Mercedes, let's be serious. He was lucky to start his career in McLaren.

[Knock-on]

I find it impossible to argue with your post Knighty but cannot bring myself to condemn MW out of hand. He has been there with Ron over that period and nobody could accuse Ron of being incompetant or a weak leader.

I couldn't claim for a second to have any insight into the upper eschelons of McLaren management other than what we all see on TV but the impression I get is that McLaren are a massive corporation now that hasn't managed to seperate the disperate business streams and focus on each to the maximum. The F1 side of the business might not be getting the uninterupted focus it enjoyed 20 years ago.

[dj_bytedisaster]

I couldn't claim for a second to have any insight into the upper eschelons of McLaren management other than what we all see on TV but the impression I get is that McLaren are a massive corporation now that hasn't managed to seperate the disperate business streams and focus on each to the maximum. The F1 side of the business might not be getting the uninterupted focus it enjoyed 20 years ago.

McLaren has always been a bit of a mystery to me. They were best when they were nothing more than a dedicated privateer F1 team, but when they started to try to expand into a full blown sportscar manufacturer, they IMHO started losing focus. THats practically, how Ferrari started out, but that was, when most drivers' payment was going home alive after a race, not like these days, where 18 year old hoodies drop by and demand 60 bazillions of monies for a single season.

Then there's the team's attitude. I've never really like Ron Dennis much, mainly because of his attitude toward the drivers. This whole 'team keeps the trophies' thing makes me facepalm. I as a driver wouldn't put up with it. It might be seen as a petty issue by many, but if I was a driver, I'd be miffed. The winning team gets their trophy at the ceremony - why do they need the drivers' as well? Maybe I'm weird, but if I was a race winning driver I would want to be able (40 years down the road) to show me grandkids, what gramps has been up to when he was young and not buy a visitors ticket to the MTC to see the trophies that *I* won.

I think the teams attitude was a large part of what made Lewis look otherwise. Not that his attitude doesn't need an adjustment, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if that changed at Mercedes, because the team has a different approach.

[Garry Walker]

Well 'not competitive' is a relative term. They had some races where they struggled to keep up, especially at the start of the season, where no team had any clue what to make of Pirelli's comedy tires. The only ones, who were always at the front or near it were Alonso through sheer driving brilliance and the McLarens, which I think had a small, but visible advantage over Red Bull at the start of the season. There have been races where McLaren has clearly been off pace and not able to follow the pace of the leaders. There really has not been such a race for Red Bull, maybe except Spain. Even when they have not been in the lead, like Monza for example, they have still been able to lap at the same pace as the leaders. In addition to that, McLaren as a team has made far more mistakes than Red Bull. Far more.



Who's Bieber? Didn't hear of any driver by that name. Tough luck.



You seem to be a man of experience. I let you in on a secret. Most of us other dudes don't actually need one. The only ever time we we get close to one is when we eat out the missus while she has her monthly visitor. It takes a brave man to swim the Red Sea, but it takes a hero to actually drink from it :D



That pretty much sums you up Garry. If you run out of useful arguments, which you more often than not don't have to begin with, you react with ad hominem attacks.
Exactly what is that useful argument against someone telling me I need an attitude change? You are not talking to a school boy and most men, including me, usually don't respond kindly to nobodies trying to lecture us.



Don't be surprised if you get fed some of your own medicine.
Oh that is not a problem at all, you can scream and insult me as much as you want, I think I can survive.



How can a driver be mediocre AND always very competitive. That makes even less sense than your usual stuff. I was talking about the car being competitive. Can't say I am surprised you were not able to understand that.



Neither is Vettel or at least hasn't been from the start. If you remember 2010 it was actually Webber, who was their best shot at the title. Vettel caught him in the very last race.Funny that, in 2010 already in Turkey they ordered Webber to let bieber pass him by telling him to lower his engine power, whereas they told bieber to keep his engine at full power. And when bieber stupidly rammed Webber, they actually stood behind bieber and said it was the fault of Webber that bieber stupidly rammed him.
Not to mention Silverstone where Bieber crashed his new front wing (there were 2 altogether), then they took the new front wing away from Webber and gave it to Bieber. When such things happen in public one can only wonder what else has been going on.
´


Once Vettel was WDC, he was at least slight favourite in the team and that's a normal thing. Webber is closer to the end of his career than to the start of it, while Vettel has many years ahead of him. In which driver would you invest as a team boss? As I showed you, Bieber was the team golden boy from the first race on.



1) Did we see the same season? McLaren was at least on par with Red Bull, if not faster at at least half the races so far.
2) I would doubt both.
1) Did we?
2) You would doubt that the sun is bigger than the moon and that I am smarter than you? Again, I am not really surprised.



Maybe having always been inconsistent throughout most of his career has something to do with it as well. Webber can be brilliant in one race (storming from 18th to 3rd in last years China GP comes to mind) and the next race we would fail to make up a single position from 7th on the grid.
I said he was awful, you said he was inconsistent. So pretty much you agree with me.



I know, but he still ended 18th. If the car was so brilliant as some insinuate, he should have made up a few positions, especially since overtaking at Monza isn't particularly difficult. He was 2 minutes behind the leaders after 1st lap, because they couldn't get his car going.


Calm down fella... This is a motorsport forum and you bring nothing but filth and hate... have you really nothing of more value to say. Hey boy, have a look at your posts in this thread and tell me if they bring anything of value?


Really? I'm no defender of Garry as everyone knows but he fights a good fight and defends his opinion to the hilt. Even if he backs up his opinion with more opinion, it is at least reasoned unlike some on here and his posts have value for discussion.

If you're upset about the tampon quip, you will be spitting condoms at DJ's response :D

Thanks :D

[Tazio]

I realize that most of ya' 'awl boys have written Fred off for this seasons WDC, but I'm waiting to see what they bring to India. If Kettle dominates there than I will agree that barring a miracle RB and SV have it in the bag :(

[gloomyDAY]

I realize that most of ya' 'awl boys have written Fred off for this seasons WDC, but I'm waiting to see what they bring to India. If Kettle dominates there than I will agree that barring a miracle RB and SV have it in the bag :( Yep! Don't count your chickens before the hatch. Writing off Alonso is a mistake, and I think Ferrari still have an ace up their sleeve.

What's your opinion on the rumor of Vettel's move to Ferrari in 2014, Taz?

[Tazio]

:beer:
Yep! Don't count your chickens before the hatch. Writing off Alonso is a mistake, and I think Ferrari still have an ace up their sleeve.

What's your opinion on the rumor of Vettel's move to Ferrari in 2014, Taz?To be honest I don't know what to think about it other than I would indorse it. ;) Sadly it seems that the only way we have to differentiate the comparable talent between drivers is if they are on the same team. Crazy season this is, and considering all factors I think that Alonso vs. Kettle would be worth the price of admission as they are two of a select few drivers that can make a case for being the best. Kimi has exceeded my expectations and it is hard to tell where the Lotus challenger ranks, but Kimi deserves any and all accolades wherever he lands in the final WDC standing.
I am equally impressed with LH but that is to be expected. To be honest If Mark can consistently quail near the top it makes me think that is the car not the driver. I rate Webber slightly lower than FM and JB but that is JMHO.
Back to Vettle, if he signs with Ferrari it will make the season very interesting. Two of the best both with ridiculously high salaries, and Ferrari will not be able to hold SV back for the sole interest of Fernando Aloysius Alonso :p
BTW if he is in a Scud I will totally back his play FWIW :beer:
However I see RB dominating in the immediate future, and leaving would be a mistake for Seb.

[Warriwa]

Seb will be world champ. Dont bet against the bookies.
When Seb goes to Ferrari, his golden boy status will continue.
He will force Fernando out within two years imo.

[dj_bytedisaster]

If Vettel really goes to Ferrari in 2014, Alonso will leave after 2013. Ferrari played with fire twice (Pironi/Villeneuve and Prost/Mansell). Both times they got burned. They'll never allow two potential #1's in the team. It will always be a master/servant combo and both Vettel and Alonso make lousy servants.

[ShiftingGears]

Seb will be world champ. Dont bet against the bookies.
When Seb goes to Ferrari, his golden boy status will continue.
He will force Fernando out within two years imo.

Why? Is Marko going to Ferrari also?

[Big Ben]

Not only is he going to beat Alonso this year and next year and than move to Ferrari and force him into retirement but he's also going to take his home, his wife or girlfirend and his dog. In your face, punk!

[ShiftingGears]

Honestly I think Fernando has shown from his time at Renault and Ferrari thus far he is more than capable of molding a team around him.

I do not believe that a driver with the ability and ruthlessness of Alonso will allow a situation whereby a driver new to the team would usurp his "golden boy" status. In all respects, Vettel will be joining what is essentially Alonso's team, and Alonso will use all his influence within Ferrari to ensure it stays that way.


Not only is he going to beat Alonso this year and next year and than move to Ferrari and force him into retirement but he's also going to take his home, his wife or girlfirend and his dog. In your face, punk!

Ha!

[tfp]

Lets hope the end of this season wont be with Bieber qualifying first and driving off. That would be a rubbish end to a very good season. If Bieber is going to win, lets hope its from 5th place, or due to blinding pace despite poor tactics from RBR (Ha). I wouldnt mind that so much. But it makes the race dull at the front when he qualifys first and wins with by far and away the quickest car.

[kfzmeister]

Fingers is way overrated. He can come to Ferrari. That would be like Alonso coming into Mclaren in '07. Alonso would destroy him in equal equipment and 4 years at Ferrari. They revere Alonso at Ferrari. Who's Vettel to them? What's he done?

[dj_bytedisaster]

Fingers is way overrated. He can come to Ferrari. That would be like Alonso coming into Mclaren in '07. Alonso would destroy him in equal equipment and 4 years at Ferrari. They revere Alonso at Ferrari. Who's Vettel to them? What's he done?

If I recall correctly, the mighty Mr. Alonso was driven out of McLaren by a rookie named Hamilton. And just for the record. An overrated driver doesn't win two WDC. The last overrated drivers to win the championship were Hill and Villeneuve in 1996 and 1997.
As I said before. Alonso would never accept Vettel in his team. He'll either veto the move or he'll bugger off to a different team.

[Big Ben]

If I recall correctly, the mighty Mr. Alonso was driven out of McLaren by a rookie named Hamilton.

And what a great move it was for McLaren. :laugh:


And just for the record. An overrated driver doesn't win two WDC. The last overrated drivers to win the championship were Hill and Villeneuve in 1996 and 1997.

An overrated driver, to this date, can win up to 7 titles and still be overrated.



As I said before. Alonso would never accept Vettel in his team. He'll either veto the move or he'll bugger off to a different team.

Somehow I'm under the impression that you know even better than Alonso himself what he would or wouldn't accept. And he also has the option to retire.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Hill wasn't overrated and anyone who lived through that era would remember the tense battles he had with Schumacher and on many occasions out driving him. Credit where credit is due.

*snort*
The only race at which Hill outdrove *someone* was the 1997 Hungarian GP. The 1996 title was a complete gift. His two only rivals were Schumacher and Villeneuve. Schumacher was in a crap car and Villeneuve was a rookie coming in from Americaland with little experience of running in the wet. Watch Barcelona 1996 for a driver winning on sheer talent. Hint: Hill wasn't it.

[zako85]

Fingers is way overrated. He can come to Ferrari. That would be like Alonso coming into Mclaren in '07. Alonso would destroy him in equal equipment and 4 years at Ferrari. They revere Alonso at Ferrari. Who's Vettel to them? What's he done?


I think a lot of people fail to realize that Alonso, like all other drivers, is merely an employee of his team. He is not running this team. If Ferrari management will deem it necessary, they will force him to race on equal status with Vettel, or may be even force him out of the team. And such things have happened in the past (Schumacher 2007, Raikkonen 2010), so I don't see why it can't be repeated again.

Having said this, it doesn't make sense why Ferrari is taking Vettel, but if they are to take Vettel, I don't see why it would be for any reason other than give him at least an equal status with Alonso. I am pretty sure Vettel has already thought about all complexities in advance.

[pino]

Seb will be world champ. Dont bet against the bookies.
When Seb goes to Ferrari, his golden boy status will continue.
He will force Fernando out within two years imo.

He might win the title this year due to a better/faster car but... If he signs for Ferrari, Alonso will humiliate him ;)

[donKey jote]

If I recall correctly, the mighty Mr. Alonso was driven out of McLaren by a rookie named Hamilton.

and his Dad, and his team, and the mighty UK yellow press... ;)

[gloomyDAY]

He might win the title this year due to a better/faster car but... If he signs for Ferrari, Alonso will humiliate him ;) :rolleyes: Sure, buddy. Sure.

[Knock-on]

He might win the title this year due to a better/faster car but... If he signs for Ferrari, Alonso will humiliate him ;)

Couldn't agree more. It's not like you to make sense Pino. You've caught too much Sun :p

[Tazio]

He might win the title this year due to a better/faster car but... If he signs for Ferrari, Alonso will humiliate him ;) Word up Pino, Fred would jack him :s tareup: ;)

[F1boat]

Fans always predict that their favorite driver will "humiliate" the driver who is beating him, if only they were with the same car ;) History has suggested that top drivers in F1 are pretty close in skill and humiliation rarely happens. I would also like to add that usually a few years must pass since the success of a driver and than the fans, free of their bias, appreciate his success more. When Hakkinen won the championships on 1998 and 1999 people said that it was the car and that Michael is much better. Now Hakkinen is recognized as a great driver, although not as good as Michael. Same with Alonso - I remember this forum in 2005, when people were not happy with him winning the championship instead of Kimi Raikkonen. I am sure that with time Vettel will be recognized for what he is, one of the best drivers of his generation and a truly great champion :)

[pino]

I am not an Alonso fan just a tifoso ;) and I have a great respect for Vettel, I just don't think he's at the same level as Fernando, and he will probably win the title just due to a better car...thats all. If one day he will reach same level as Alonso, I will be the first one to applaude him :)

[pino]

Ok let me just point out that saying he would humiliate him, didn't mean Alonso would be 10 sec faster...just he would beat him in most events ;)

[Knock-on]

Fans always predict that their favorite driver will "humiliate" the driver who is beating him, if only they were with the same car ;) History has suggested that top drivers in F1 are pretty close in skill and humiliation rarely happens. I would also like to add that usually a few years must pass since the success of a driver and than the fans, free of their bias, appreciate his success more. When Hakkinen won the championships on 1998 and 1999 people said that it was the car and that Michael is much better. Now Hakkinen is recognized as a great driver, although not as good as Michael. Same with Alonso - I remember this forum in 2005, when people were not happy with him winning the championship instead of Kimi Raikkonen. I am sure that with time Vettel will be recognized for what he is, one of the best drivers of his generation and a truly great champion :)

Well, I cannot be classed as a Fred fan. I am a McLaren fan and Alonso could have destroyed the team with his lying about what he knew of the dossier and then the Blackmail attempt. However, I appreciate a superb driver and everything I have seen of Fred leads me to believe he is a great driver.

Vettel on the other hand is very quick and polished when at the front. He flaps under pressure and has a glass jaw. Put them both in the same team and Alonso will beat Seb in 3 of every 4 races IMHO.

[F1boat]

However, I appreciate a superb driver and everything I have seen of Fred leads me to believe he is a great driver.


I won't deny this. I simply don't think that he will beat Vettel, that's all. Even in the same team.

[zako85]

Vettel very much follows the footsteps of Schumacher. Both showed impressive drives and wins right from the start of their first full time season in F1. Schumacher got two titles with Benetton (1994 Benetton cheating allegations notwithstanding). Vettel drove well in 2008 and got two titles with RBR in 2010 and 11, and is highly likely to win 2013 and 2014 titles. Schumacher then chose to move to Ferrari even though it was not the top team, and Vettel is following his footsteps to Ferrari too.

In order to avoid a massive disappointment, I'd say start preparing to witness a decade of Vettel domination. The lad fights like a lion even after massive blows to his title hopes, such as this year when his car broke numerous times or in 2010 when he lost engine in Korea at a critical time. He has a strong will power, and focuses on this goals, unlike drivers like Hamilton or Massa who seem to be driving well only according to their motivation at the moment. Witness Hamilton's season in 2011, Button in 2012, or Massa since his accident. Vettel always drives well and when he is not on the top he is not complaining about not being able to adapt to new tires or new car. He just keeps on fighting. So IMO, Vettel, Alonso, and probably Kimi are in the class of their own. As for Alonso or Vettel being the best of them, we need to have more data in order to make this conclusion. I wouldn't jump to make a claim that either one of them is better. Doing so would be too fanboyish.

[F1boat]

The lad fights like a lion even after massive blows to his title hopes, such as this year when his car broke numerous times or in 2010 when he lost engine in Korea at a critical time.

This is the most amazing thing about him... no other driver could have won the WDC with so many reliability issues in 2010, I think.

[F1boat]

The lad fights like a lion even after massive blows to his title hopes, such as this year when his car broke numerous times or in 2010 when he lost engine in Korea at a critical time.

This is the most amazing thing about him... no other driver could have won the WDC with so many reliability issues in 2010, I think.

[Ranger]

This is the most amazing thing about him... no other driver could have won the WDC with so many reliability issues in 2010, I think.

You forget that the car was on pole for 15 of the 19 races.

It retired twice from the lead because of reliability issues, but he also binned it in Turkey and Belgium, both of which were entirely of his own making.

I dare say there are several others who could have won the title in that car even with the same reliability issues.

[CaptainRaiden]

This is the most amazing thing about him... no other driver could have won the WDC with so many reliability issues in 2010, I think.

:laugh:

[zako85]

It retired twice from the lead because of reliability issues, but he also binned it in Turkey and Belgium, both of which were entirely of his own making.


Probably his own making. Though, the Turkey bin was also partially a courtesy of having a teammate with a pair of balls (football balls of course :-)

[steveaki13]

Looking more and more like this season is going to be over sooner than we would like.

I know with 3 races after this one anything can happen, but here in India Vettel is looking unstoppable.

If Alonso hadn't had the retirement in Japan it could have gone right to the wire.

[pino]

I won't give up until the mat says it ;)

[F1boat]

I won't give up until the mat says it ;)

and this is the right attitude... it is never over till its over, as a Seb fan I even fear Lewis as well.

[kfzmeister]

Looking more and more like this season is going to be over sooner than we would like.

I know with 3 races after this one anything can happen, but here in India Vettel is looking unstoppable.

If Alonso hadn't had the retirement in Japan it could have gone right to the wire.

It still may. Tomorrow is not a given for Vettel especially in the first lap. RB has a low high speed at 311kph , whereas Macca and Ferrari are at 318 and 321, so it could get interesting. Ferrari has good race pace, as do Macca. Very similar to RB. Ferrari looking good heavy on long runs. Vettel showing signs of pressure by mistake in final run of Q3.
Go Alonso.

[Tazio]

It still may. Tomorrow is not a given for Vettel especially in the first lap. RB has a low high speed at 311kph , whereas Macca and Ferrari are at 318 and 321, so it could get interesting. Ferrari has good race pace, as do Macca. Very similar to RB. Ferrari looking good heavy on long runs. Vettel showing signs of pressure by mistake in final run of Q3.
Go Alonso. I think Ferrari will be kind, fast, and planted on their options with full tanks. Alonso has to get off the line better than he did in Singapore. Even though he picked off di Resta by about turn 4, off the line he came very close to being overtaken by 3 cars from grid positions behind him at T1. The start should be interesting especially if “Zo” can benefit from a covering move on a McLaren by Webber.
May the Forza be with him :r2d2:

[Garry Walker]

The last overrated drivers to win the championship were Hill and Villeneuve in 1996 and 1997.

Drivers who were not even slightly worse than Bieber.


*snort*
The only race at which Hill outdrove *someone* was the 1997 Hungarian GP. The 1996 title was a complete gift.
If 1996 title to Hill was a gift, how would you call the 2011 title to Bieber? Hill in fact probably deserved his title even more, because only Schumacher was a better driver than him, whereas there are more than 1 driver who is better than bieber.


This is the most amazing thing about him... no other driver could have won the WDC with so many reliability issues in 2010, I think.

LOL. Funniest thing I have read this week.

[gloomyDAY]

Lewis Hamilton agrees with you (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/9652249/Lewis-Hamilton-says-Fernando-Alonso-is-better-than-Sebastian-Vettel.html) Garry Walker.


I think lots of people in the paddock wish they could have Adrian’s car so they could show that they’re just as competitive as Sebastian. Fernando, for me, is more accurate. He hits all the apexes [the perfect racing line through a corner]. Sebastian misses four apexes on a single lap and still goes quickest. He goes off and he still goes quickest. And I think ‘Holy crap, I couldn’t do that lap even if I was on the limit’. His car is just that far ahead of everyone else’s. They made such a big step for some reason.

[Javi_racing]

I find much funny this topic. How many F1 races have you seen, dont you know 3 races left are a lot of races, a lot of opportunities? heheh everything can happen dude, do not throw in the towel.

I still thinking fernando can win this tittle as Vettel can. What will happen If Vettel is sanctioned tomorrow as Hamilton was in spain (lack of fuel this qualyfing) , or If grosjean crash into him, or, or...xD

[i_max2k2]

I'm rooting for Fernando, I guess a lot many along with me think he is much worthy!

[gerkebi]

With Vettel being sent to the back of the bus, this will spice things up a bit tomorrow.

[F1boat]

Well Seb drove very well today :-) I am very happy for his podium and while he lost points to Alonso, it could have been much worse.

[jens]

I think as Hamilton and Alonso have so many fans, the strength of Vettel as a driver gets somewhat lost on the forums. And it is sad to see that a truly strong racer, a multiple world champion, gets so little appreciation of what he actually does and achieves.

I can understand people wanting to see different people winning, having a WDC decided on an even-playing field (without anyone having a 'car advantage'), simply having different sympathies, etc. But I am struggling to understand the ever-lasting complaining that an "average driver is lucking into WDC's". Some people seem to take it rather dramatically.

I don't know if Vettel wins the third WDC. As the DQ of qualifying showed, anything can happen. But a triple WDC is a top driver, nothing less. What some may struggle to understand, is how difficult it is to be competitive in this sport, even more so consistently competitive. We have seen even in the case of top drivers, how easy it is to have an off-year (Lewis in 2011, Kimi in 2008). If you win three WDC's in a row, you can't afford any off-years, you need to perform at the highest level on a consistent basis. And this is what Seb is doing.

In addition, Webber is a decent driver though not a world-beater, and he is yet to finish even as a runner-up in the WDC standings (3rd, 3rd and currently 4th in the last three seasons). This shows that even if the car is great, you need great performances to wring the speed out of it and actually win championships.

[F1boat]

Well said, jens :)

[steveaki13]

Well said Jens.

He drove well today. He made a few mistakes and worked back from them, he got a bit of luck here and there with SCs, but amid that he pushed hard and achieve a brilliant result from 23rd to 3rd.

Walking past Webber on route.


Great Job by Seb. He has one hand on that throphy now I think. This was the day Ferrari needed to pull those points back with Seb starting from the Pits and Seb managed to reduce that to 3 points.

A key performance in this years championship.

[dj_bytedisaster]

A key performance in this years championship.

Don't expect the haters to accept that, though.

[steveaki13]

Don't expect the haters to accept that, though.

True.

I am honest enough to say I would prefer Alonso to win the title, but this performance today and a very fast car leave Vettel on target to claim the title again.

If this happens he will fully deserve it because the Red Bull and Vettel is one awesome package, and this result will be one he looks back on.

[Javi_racing]

True.

I am honest enough to say I would prefer Alonso to win the title, but this performance today and a very fast car leave Vettel on target to claim the title again.

If this happens he will fully deserve it because the Red Bull and Vettel is one awesome package, and this result will be one he looks back on.

True.

I have to admit that vettel has done an excellent race today...(I've never liked vettel at all xD) He has done merits to win this championship, although as you have said, he has been very lucky (in all aspects... I couldn't believe how lucky has he had xD) but he has fight to the limit, with almost no making mistakes


In my opinion, whoever who win this tittle will be a fair winner. I'm alonso fan so I hope he make some magic in the next races, he'll do his best as always, but I fear we are gonna need some mistake or failure in Vettel.. If not, its gonna be very difficult to win

Nevertheless, from an objective perspective Alonso should be the champion, we all know how he has fought in each lap each race, how he has been able to get the most of a not so good car, and the most important, he has not made any mistake, very constant

[Tazio]

A key performance in this years championship.
Even Scuderia Alonso is starting to sound a little reserved (for him ;) ) about his chances.... :bulb:
See 1:30 on untill Felipe takes over the interview


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hE81kkVZtVI

[airshifter]

In addition, Webber is a decent driver though not a world-beater, and he is yet to finish even as a runner-up in the WDC standings (3rd, 3rd and currently 4th in the last three seasons). This shows that even if the car is great, you need great performances to wring the speed out of it and actually win championships.


I don't understand why Red Bull doesn't just hire you and me as drivers. They would save a TON of money, and we could just toss a coin to decide who is the #1 and #2 driver. After all, the car wins races all by itself right? :laugh:


Great post. I think it's amazing how many haters will discredit someone when they really have no real gauge of just how close the cars are or aren't.

[Garry Walker]

Lewis Hamilton agrees with you (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/9652249/Lewis-Hamilton-says-Fernando-Alonso-is-better-than-Sebastian-Vettel.html) Garry Walker.

Hamilton is right of course.

[Knock-on]

Garry. You made parole again :D

[pino]

I agree with both Garry and Hamilton :D

[Garry Walker]

Garry. You made parole again :D

:D Too much work the last couple of months, I have had very little free time.

[Knock-on]

:D Too much work the last couple of months, I have had very little free time.

I've had the opposite but the build up to the season starts next week with a trip to Germany. Can't wait. It's been ages since Brasil.