2012 Presidential Race [Archive]

Tazio

4th September 2012, 22:22

I am and have been a registered Democrat since 1972. I've never voted a straight Democratic ticket (if you count abstentions). Having said that this going to be a much closer race than I thought 3 months ago, but Obama holds the trump card which cancels out any suggestion that this President of The United States of America is responsible for our massive Federal Debt. What card is that you ask? He's one of a small group of objective/sane Senators that voted against the invasion of Iraq which saw (through cronyism), companies like Blackwater and other military subcontractors get filthy rich emptying our tills while we eliminated Iraq's vast cache of weapons of mass destruction. Mitt is on record as supporting the "Slam Dunk", although he was vocal in the mismanagement of funds after the horse bolted ;)
My fellow Americans, it’s ok to love your country. It is however helpful that you obey the righteous laws of your country, and you actively participate in repealing the ones that are unjust.

We find ourselves under the government of a system of political institutions, conducing more essentially to the ends of civil and religious liberty, than any of which the history of former times tells us. We, when mounting the stage of existence, found ourselves the legal inheritors of these fundamental blessings. We toiled not in the acquirement or establishment of them--they are a legacy bequeathed us, by a once hardy, brave, and patriotic, but now lamented and departed race of ancestors. Their's was the task (and nobly they performed it) to possess themselves, and through themselves, us, of this goodly land; and to uprear upon its hills and its valleys, a political edifice of liberty and equal rights; 'tis ours only, to transmit these, the former, unprofaned by the foot of an invader; the latter, undecayed by the lapse of time and untorn by usurpation, to the latest generation that fate shall permit the world to know. This task of gratitude to our fathers, justice to ourselves, duty to posterity, and love for our species in general, all imperatively require us faithfully to perform.

ioan

4th September 2012, 23:02

Try to see the positive side of this: none of them can be worse than G W Bush.

Tazio

4th September 2012, 23:15

Rollo you're kidding about California, No?

2012 California President: Romney vs. Obama (http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/pollster/2012-california-president-romney-vs-obama)

odykas

5th September 2012, 09:20

Try to see the positive side of this: none of them can be worse than G W Bush.

True, but Romney can be close.

Tazio

5th September 2012, 15:30

From the outside, this looks like the most boring and dull presidential race I've ever seen.

From the inside it is exciting. I think the DNC got off to an inspired start last night, and tonight Uncle Willie, aka President Bill Clinton is no doubt going to "knock one out of the park"

Gov. Deval Patrick

Gov. Deval Patrick: This Is 'Election of a Lifetime' - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVxRmNO6Qs0)

Mayor Julian Castro's keynote address:

Julian Castro Speech at DNC Democratic National Convention - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRucQRijMk)

Michelle Obama's Speech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZztRcaL5lM

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 16:01

Decision should be very simple. Who of the two would you have run your household and bank account and investments that you work hard for and saved?

race aficionado

5th September 2012, 16:13

Decision should be very simple. Who of the two would you have run your household and bank account and investments that you work hard for and saved?

Who of the two will give you that PLUS the opportunity to work hard, have a household, a bank account, investments and savings?

Tazio

5th September 2012, 16:19

Decision should be very simple. Who of the two would you have run your household and bank account and investments that you work hard for and saved?Before or after Tax?
BTW that is in fact as you say a very simplistic choice: confused: IMO.
While you are at it define "worked hard for" because there are a great many people in this world that really can't do too much hard work.
My quadriplegic son is one of them!

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 16:26

From the inside it is exciting. I think the DNC got off to an inspired start last night, and tonight Uncle Willie, aka President Bill Clinton is no doubt going to "knock one out of the park"

Gov. Deval Patrick

Gov. Deval Patrick: This Is 'Election of a Lifetime' - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVxRmNO6Qs0)

Mayor Julian Castro's keynote address:

Julian Castro Speech at DNC Democratic National Convention - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fRucQRijMk)

Michelle Obama's Speech:

Michelle Obama DNC Speech Democratic National Convention Part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZztRcaL5lM)

Caro dottore dun ya think it can get a lil cornfusink if ya'll say 'Uncle Willie?'
Ya'll know what 'willie' is slang for dontcha?

'Sides, the Republican guy's named Willard. Willard, we seen it right on the birth certificate. (him being the anchor baby for his illegal immigrant Dad)
Willie could be folksy slang for Willard si?

Why do they hide his real name I wonder? Willie hides his real name, hides his tax returns, hides his off-shore bank accounts, hides how Bain Capital paid out huge bonuses to themselves while negotiating the hundreds of millions of debt with FDIC when they acquired some lousy NE Bank that failed..(that's real success, Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation negotiating with Bain and accepting they din't have any cash-- which they didn't have because they just paid out all the cash they had to the "officers" of the Corporation so that they could argue they "couldn't" pay FDIC. Corporate Socialism at its best!)

But he's a wonderful man. :kiss: I'm sure. :s tareup:Just he's seems to hide everything about himself. Could be nothing.
Could be that he learned early on he can do anything he wants regardless of the rules for others, and get away with it.

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 16:39

Before or after Tax?
BTW that is in fact as you say a very simplistic choice: confused: IMO.
While you are at it define "worked hard for" because there are a great many people in this world that really can't do too much hard work.
My quadriplegic son is one of them!

Define? Worked for it and saved it. Please don't use your son for misplaced political agenda. We all have awesome responsibility to everyone who needs help, from the child to elderly. that was not what I was refering to. I did say household and money therefore still leaves you with a choice that you have to make to place your vote.

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 16:49

Who of the two will give you that PLUS the opportunity to work hard, have a household, a bank account, investments and savings?

Agree, that question should be directed to 23 mil or more without work also.

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 16:56

Decision should be very simple. Who of the two would you have run your household and bank account and investments that you work hard for and saved?

Agreed it should be simple.
Should we vote for somebody who inherited millions, started life with a trust fund set up by his daddy which insulated him from the negative outcomes of his decisions meaning he never had to give any thought to making a budget to live on and meant the hard decisions were things like which of all the cars he owned should he drive today and how to "protect' the millions he started with, who could buy whole businesses at fire sale prices with leveraged money, and pay himself millions per year with that barrowed money, and if the combined debt meant the business could not make profits, just liquidate the business and pocket the money,

Or a man who started with just his brains and paid the rent, bought his own cars, his own groceries, the light bill, the water bill, etc in the same way I do, from wages?

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 17:04

Agree, that question should be directed to 23 mil or more without work also.

US big corporations are sitting on such record cash reserves that many rather than invest in machinery, or development and research are spending their money buying up their stocks and making their Public corporations into privately held corporations..

Are you suggesting that Governments should be forcing corporations to hire people and pay them decent wages so maybe they can buy things and get the money circulating?

Are you suggesting that the government should force corporations or even small contractors to make and buy US made products to increase employment?

I thought the decisions to hire and pay employees was the ambit of the employers who despite increasing productivity, refuse to invest and hire.

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 17:59

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 18:01

US big corporations are sitting on such record cash reserves that many rather than invest in machinery, or development and research are spending their money buying up their stocks and making their Public corporations into privately held corporations..

Are you suggesting that Governments should be forcing corporations to hire people and pay them decent wages so maybe they can buy things and get the money circulating?

Are you suggesting that the government should force corporations or even small contractors to make and buy US made products to increase employment?

I thought the decisions to hire and pay employees was the ambit of the employers who despite increasing productivity, refuse to invest and hire.

Wrong again. Land of the free. Two choices .Vote!

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 18:43

Read again, I did not say who to vote for ,that would be your choice. I know who I would give my household and money to be managed ,therefore my children would have inheritance from this fathers hard work of double shifts, and never to have to apologize for it to likes of you.

"have to apologize to the like of me", WTF is that supposed to mean, bud?

Have to? Apologize? "to likes of you", what is the likes of me? I stand and run lathes and mills making rally car parts, and build race motors sometimes, too often until past midnight. Who have you imagined i am?

You don't think there's a difference between guys like you and me working long hours and passing what we can of that and some rich kid getting a 250 million dollar trust fund and a unsecured loan of $270,000 from daddy AND access to Other People's Money?

And further, I read just fine, I did not say, or suggest or imply in any way that you said who to vote for.
I agreed that the choice should be simple---you can read English can't you? I get scolded and threatened when I use even the tiniest bit of any other language so it has to be English, and since the first words were "I agree' and you missed that and start acting like a tough guy, I thought maybe you either can't read, or read so poorly you don't understand, Hmmmm kay?

Yeah the choice should be easy between a guy whose life and home would never be at risk if he made a gross error, vs a guy who understands how to live within normal means..

What's to argue about that?

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 18:51

Wrong again. Land of the free. Two choices .Vote!

What is wrong? That US Corporations are sitting on record amounts of cash? That US corps are rufusing to invest in R&D and hire people? That many are buying up stock and going Private?

What was i previously wrong about if I am wrong "again".

I asked some questions which you evidently couldn't comprehend, and I said i thought businesses made the decisions to invest and hire.

What are you saying is wrong?

And I know you struggle but try and keep it to this thread on the Presidential elections.... I know life must be frustrating when you're busing Fixing It Again Today and you know you have to Fix It Again Tomorrow, and you feel its a Fruitless Italian Attempt at Technology*, but do try paisano.

Which in German is Fruchlose Italiennsch Auggabe im Technologi

driveace

5th September 2012, 18:53

But ! Have the Americans got over the fact of where Obama was born,and if he is genuine,and is his name really the one he uses ,and where his deeds and promises kept ?
As up to the last election,we had all this slander and doubts about Obama

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 19:47

"have to apologize to the like of me", WTF is that supposed to mean, bud?

Have to? Apologize? "to likes of you", what is the likes of me? I stand and run lathes and mills making rally car parts, and build race motors sometimes, too often until past midnight. Who have you imagined i am?

You don't think there's a difference between guys like you and me working long hours and passing what we can of that and some rich kid getting a 250 million dollar trust fund and a unsecured loan of $270,000 from daddy AND access to Other People's Money?

And further, I read just fine, I did not say, or suggest or imply in any way that you said who to vote for.
I agreed that the choice should be simple---you can read English can't you? I get scolded and threatened when I use even the tiniest bit of any other language so it has to be English, and since the first words were "I agree' and you missed that and start acting like a tough guy, I thought maybe you either can't read, or read so poorly you don't understand, Hmmmm kay?

Yeah the choice should be easy between a guy whose life and home would never be at risk if he made a gross error, vs a guy who understands how to live within normal means..

What's to argue about that?

What I'm saying with" likes of you" is , why my children would be trashed if they run for office because their hard working father left them something. That is why hard working ,and not able to speak or spell perfect English people came to this great country, and hate to see it destroyed. Someone inheritance is his and his family business period .You are telling me that he took that inheritance and was smart enough to make it grow for his kids. Hmm ,what a crime ? I say smart, and in my world those type people should manage my house. Question still remains what bothers you more ,your choice or people acting like a tough guys.

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 19:58

What is wrong? That US Corporations are sitting on record amounts of cash? That US corps are rufusing to invest in R&D and hire people? That many are buying up stock and going Private?

What was i previously wrong about if I am wrong "again".

I asked some questions which you evidently couldn't comprehend, and I said i thought businesses made the decisions to invest and hire.

What are you saying is wrong?

And I know you struggle but try and keep it to this thread on the Presidential elections.... I know life must be frustrating when you're busing Fixing It Again Today and you know you have to Fix It Again Tomorrow, and you feel its a Fruitless Italian Attempt at Technology*, but do try paisano.

Which in German is Fruchlose Italiennsch Auggabe im Technologi

Before lecture on political knowledge and superiority over me, why are you still struggling with horse that you pick?

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 20:51

What I'm saying with" likes of you" is , why my children would be trashed if they run for office because their hard working father left them something. That is why hard working ,and not able to speak or spell perfect English people came to this great country, and hate to see it destroyed. Someone inheritance is his and his family business period .You are telling me that he took that inheritance and was smart enough to make it grow for his kids. Hmm ,what a crime ? I say smart, and in my world those type people should manage my house. Question still remains what bothers you more ,your choice or people acting like a tough guys.

Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are saying or what you mean to imply. You do not answer any questions posed to try and get a clear idea of what you mean, I must presume therefore either you don't understand how dialog works, you don't understand how to express yourself clearly in English, or that you are just trolling..

Your posts are non-sequitors and illogical. Is English your no1 language? As I said I get yelled at and threatened and my posts hacked into nonsense if I even write a few words of any other language, but as i can't understand even the first sentence above, is there another language you are more comfortable in?

And, is there some reason why you purposely avoid answering simple direct questions about what you write?

Oh and I'll give you a big hint that somehow you missed figuring out: if one has lots and lots of money, you don't have to be smart, all you really need to do is preserve the principle, and invest other people's money. If the investment works or not speculators make money.. That's the first rule: don't touch the principle..

To make something of a life starting from real nothing, like a single Mom and low income, that takes brains..
Nothing means "nada", like Obama started from... Not nothing like the millions Willard began life with access to.

And for the record I know why people immigrate. I am the only one in my family born in USA, English is my second language---and I remember nothing of my first. I do recall the languages of the countries I myself was an immigrant in...

And it is a great country precisely because we are a nation that was open to 10s of millions of immigrants; we got the benefits of their education and values formed where they came from and from their desire to have a reasonable life for all---not the perpetuation of the privileges of an aristocracy.

So who would you want running your household come down to:
a man who with brains and hard work built his life up and knows what being poor is?
Or a member of an extremely privileged economic over-class?

Mark

5th September 2012, 20:54

Calm down or i will close the thread and then we'll have no discussion of the election at all. Think on.

Gregor-y

5th September 2012, 20:57

Who would want to go through life called Willard, anyway? There are plenty of other things to hold against the guy. Though I didn't understand Henry R. Perot's logic back in the 90s. It was fun with some friends at school referring to one another by our first initial/middle name, though.

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 21:02

Calm down or i will close the thread and then we'll have no discussion of the election at all. Think on.

Who are you suggesting is not calm? Doesn't seem to me that anybody is not calm.
It cannot possibly be me, as I am simply trying to understand to rather hacked up phraseology of the guy "FIAT1"...

Maybe you can help us understand, cause I sure don't, and its rather difficult to discuss when we cannot figure out how responses are related to the subject..or not.

And why the heavy handed moderation in off topic/chit chat? Here you are wading in and there elsewhere Pino's threatening 1 months bans for "all off topic or personal" posts...?
Do you guys act that way in real life?

Tazio

5th September 2012, 21:16

Agreed it should be simple.
Should we vote for somebody who inherited millions, started life with a trust fund set up by his daddy which insulated him from the negative outcomes of his decisions meaning he never had to give any thought to making a budget to live on and meant the hard decisions were things like which of all the cars he owned should he drive today and how to "protect' the millions he started with, who could buy whole businesses at fire sale prices with leveraged money, and pay himself millions per year with that barrowed money, and if the combined debt meant the business could not make profits, just liquidate the business and pocket the money,

Or a man who started with just his brains and paid the rent, bought his own cars, his own groceries, the light bill, the water bill, etc in the same way I do, from wages?

That pretty much sums up my position. Also try to think of where this President is taking women's issues, why President Clinton is an asset to the Democratic cause, and why dubaya and his cronies are persona non grata. Because when I do, and realize that the only contribution his cronies are making is big dinero to Super-PAC's, I wonder who Mitt is actually beholding to.
Perhaps it is time we step boldly into the 1960's and actually move forward from the idea that was first proposed 90 years ago. Let us embrace universal health care. Not for me, (FIAT do you still want me to leave my son out of this? OK fine!) not only will I be eligible for social security, and medicare in 4 years, I don't need it. I come from a time when the USA was at the top of the world in Physical fitness, Life Science, Engineering, Health and Education. But the day may come, perhaps not until I'm in my 90's that I will probably need a safety net. However I already am comfortable with a clear conscience that being from California I probably pay as high or possibly the highest taxes as anyone else of my means in this country. Not only that, I am willing to pay more because the real difference between Democrats and Republicans is that the former believes that mankind is inherently good. Republican policies are predicated on the belief that humanity is inherently bad, and will cheat our Union at every turn. What a miserable way to view your neighbors. I pity people that have such a cold heart.

FIAT1

5th September 2012, 21:23

[quote="janvanvurpa"]Sorry, but I cannot understand what you are saying or what you mean to imply. You do not answer any questions posed to try and get a clear idea of what you mean, I must presume therefore either you don't understand how dialog works, you don't understand how to express yourself clearly in English, or that you are just trolling..

When simple post in regards to ones choice comes to be a venting platform to some type unhappiness for some ,then is time to respectfully stop the nunsence. I wish you all the best! Don't forget to vote, as that is most important thing in this anyway.

janvanvurpa

5th September 2012, 21:34

Who would want to go through life called Willard, anyway?

Well obviously nobody would especially with that horrible B movie about the rat Willard.
But why hide that? His name is Willard, why not use it?

Rollo

5th September 2012, 21:40

Who of the two will give you that PLUS the opportunity to work hard, have a household, a bank account, investments and savings?

The "opportunity to work hard" you say?

AM - Rinehart warns Africans will work for $2 a day 05/09/2012 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3583088.htm)
Furthermore Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day. Such statistics make me worry for this country's future.

Admittedly Gina Rinehart was talking about Australia but the issue is identical. It doesn't matter which western country you live in, the truth is that labour costs in places like parts of South East Asia and Africa are sufficiently low enough that even if taxes were massively minus, it would still be more profitable for companies to employ them.

To prove the point:
GE :: Housewares - Product Detail (http://www.gehousewares.com/Browse_Product.aspx?category_id=8)
http://www.gehousewares.com/products/2009916151430141.jpg
I have one of these. A General Electric slow cooker. General Electric is the only 1896 charter member among today's components of the Dow. If anything can claim to be an American company, it's GE. Yet my GE slow cooker is made in... Namibia.

No policy either by a Republicrat or Democran president forced them to move there, it was the simple economic fact that wages in the US are simply higher. No American would be prepared to work for $4,582 a year.

So then, to answer the question of the two will give you the opportunity to work hard, have a household, a bank account, investments and savings? Well neither of them to be honest.

Tazio

5th September 2012, 22:00

The "opportunity to work hard" you say?

AM - Rinehart warns Africans will work for $2 a day 05/09/2012 (http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3583088.htm)
Furthermore Africans want to work and its workers are willing to work for less than $2 per day. Such statistics make me worry for this country's future.

Admittedly Gina Rinehart was talking about Australia but the issue is identical. It doesn't matter which western country you live in, the truth is that labour costs in places like parts of South East Asia and Africa are sufficiently low enough that even if taxes were massively minus, it would still be more profitable for companies to employ them.

To prove the point:
GE :: Housewares - Product Detail (http://www.gehousewares.com/Browse_Product.aspx?category_id=8)
http://www.gehousewares.com/products/2009916151430141.jpg
I have one of these. A General Electric slow cooker. General Electric is the only 1896 charter member among today's components of the Dow. If anything can claim to be an American company, it's GE. Yet my GE slow cooker is made in... Namibia.

No policy either by a Republicrat or Democran president forced them to move there, it was the simple economic fact that wages in the US are simply higher. No American would be prepared to work for $4,582 a year.

So then, to answer the question of the two will give you the opportunity to work hard, have a household, a bank account, investments and savings? Well neither of them to be honest. A fair point, because it has been at least 20 years in the USA that Hard Work=Financial Security

Tazio

5th September 2012, 23:45

http://www.whatonearthcatalog.com/graphics/products/regular/CF7972T.jpg

Rollo

6th September 2012, 00:36

A fair point, because it has been at least 20 years in the USA that Hard Work=Financial Security

40 years to be pedantic:
Have a look at the Economic Report of the President - 2012

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/ERP-2012/pdf/ERP-2012.pdf

Mired all the way down in Table B-47 on page 374, is Hours and earnings in private nonagricultural industries. Real wages peaked in the United States in 1972.

This means to suggest that if the economy has been growing then the rewards for work, have not been going to workers. Moreover, it also suggests that if you want to blame the President, then every single one of the feckers from Nixon onwards have been negligent.
Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (41), Clinton, Bush (43), Obama - why should the trend for the next president be any different at all? If Romney gets in, it'll be like changing the duvet covers - you won't immediately notice the smell, but under the covers, the cat is still weeing in the bed.

Tazio

6th September 2012, 01:43

Rollo, I don't agree with rude part of your comment comparing all those Presidents of the United States of America to cat piss, but then again this is coming from someone that has implied in the first post of this thread that somehow California is a battleground State. It is so far in Obama's pocket that neither one of them even waste time campaigning here. You are intelligent enough to know that legislation has three separate institutions to clear in order to become law, and many great ideas put forward by all those Presidents you listed have been obstructed.

But hey, as Henners88 told me Britt's are rude by nature.

What is more important to me is that I can see by your signature that you appreciate American Poetry, (at least Henry Wadsworth Longfellow).
I'm partial to this piece of work by Longfellow (even though it is not historically factual. That is called poetic license) :

Paul Revere's Ride

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,–
One if by land, and two if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend through alley and street
Wanders and watches, with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,–
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall,
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel’s tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent,
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,–
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse’s side,
Now he gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry’s height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns.

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet;
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.
He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the cock,
And the barking of the farmer’s dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, black and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadow brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,—
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,—
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere

:s ailor: Saaaanap For The Win!!

Tazio

6th September 2012, 07:28

Do the ladies who got "A little something on the side", in the oval office and elsewhere, still go for him? That is a question that I can't answer. However the thing that disappoints me the most about Bubba is that as the Governor of Arkansas, and The Prez, he was really into skanky biatches. He could have learned a thing or two from John, and Bobby Kennedy. At least they were hitting some fine trim.

Mark

6th September 2012, 10:33

Who are you suggesting is not calm? Doesn't seem to me that anybody is not calm.
It cannot possibly be me, as I am simply trying to understand to rather hacked up phraseology of the guy "FIAT1"...

Maybe you can help us understand, cause I sure don't, and its rather difficult to discuss when we cannot figure out how responses are related to the subject..or not.

And why the heavy handed moderation in off topic/chit chat? Here you are wading in and there elsewhere Pino's threatening 1 months bans for "all off topic or personal" posts...?
Do you guys act that way in real life?

It's not difficult to understand, posts which are along the lines of "are you stupid or what" aren't acceptable. Unfortunately it seems all political threads go this way :(

race aficionado

6th September 2012, 12:23

President Clinton did a great job at the Democratic convention last night.

I'm really looking forward to the debates.

Rollo

6th September 2012, 14:16

F1boat

6th September 2012, 14:40

I hope that Obama will win, but to be honest, Romney is like an angel next to crazy monsters like Santorum or Rick Perry...

Gregor-y

6th September 2012, 15:09

And that's the kind of voter was the Republican platform tailored to appeal to!
50 minute speech:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzDhk3BHi6Q

And

Former President Bill Clinton’s stem-winding nomination speech (http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/dnc-2012-bill-clintons-speech-at-the-democratic-national-convention-excerpt/2012/09/05/f208865e-f7a4-11e1-8253-3f495ae70650_print.html) was a fact-checker’s nightmare: lots of effort required to run down his many statistics and factual claims, producing little for us to write about. Republicans will find plenty of Clinton’s scorching opinions objectionable. But with few exceptions, we found his stats checked out.

http://factcheck.org/2012/09/our-clinton-nightmare/

janvanvurpa

6th September 2012, 15:46

Only from certain posters Mark, only certain posters.

No whatever your name is, not only from certain posters, from many. Some just are moral cowards and attempt to hide behind a facade of politeness and artifice----and write angry obscenity filled PMs displaying their true narrow minded and rage filled reality..
Moralistic Poseurs and we all know who they are, don't we?

Roamy

6th September 2012, 16:21

President Clinton did a great job at the Democratic convention last night.

I'm really looking forward to the debates.

Me too - I thought Clinton did excellent and also Warren was right there too. I really think it will come down to "Class Warfare" and in the
end I suspect Obama will win the election. I have always maintained that "a pig gets fatter and a hog gets slaughtered" Many of the rich and rich
corporations have become "Hogs" while leaving the middle class for dead. It could really bite them in the ass for many years to come.

janvanvurpa

6th September 2012, 18:22

If anybody is interested to see the seriously horrible degree of calculated hypocrisy that the Willard Robme campaign is built on, specifically him wailing about the costs of preventing, right or wrong, the complete meltdown of the US---and much of the rest of the industrialised world---financial system, the mock horror at massive Federal debt--reflect for a moment how "earned' his hundreds of millions---leveraged buy outs..

You folks understand how leveraged buy outs function?

Borrowed money. Bain puts up say 5 million, borrows 175 million from cronies, and "invests in" enough stock to control a carefully chosen , high cash flow company, then Bain doesn't pay back the borrowed capital, the victim company is saddled with the full debt.
And millions per year for the 'work' of putting the deal together--more debt.
And millions per year for Bain to "manage" the company..

Debt is just another word for capital.

Here's a couple of articles explaining how generally the leveraged buyout deals work and specifically how Romney's Bain Capital carried out their 'work":

The Federal Bailout That Saved Mitt Romney
Government documents prove the candidate's mythology is just that
The Federal Bailout That Saved Mitt Romney | Politics News | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-federal-bailout-that-saved-mitt-romney-20120829)

That one is great. With actual documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act it shows how when Bain swooped up a failed New england bank included all assets and liabilities, Bain refused to pay out any money to depositors and fought with FDIC, the Federal Depositor Insurance Corporation who wanted Bain to use its cash on hand to pay depositors, and how Bain clained they couldn't... and then so they would not have any cash, paid Romney and a couple of the other partners "bonuses' amounting to all their cash--25 millions here and 27 millions there---and then said "we don't have any cash" and how FDIC was forced to pay the whole amount out of the insurance fund---which all banks buy into---and pass along the cost to depositors.

and

Greed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital
How the GOP presidential candidate and his private equity firm staged an epic wealth grab, destroyed jobs – and stuck others with the bill

Greed and Debt: The True Story of Mitt Romney and Bain Capital | Politics News | Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/greed-and-debt-the-true-story-of-mitt-romney-and-bain-capital-20120829)

Take the time and read both, its just 10 minutes.

Tazio

6th September 2012, 18:25

California is a strange thing. It used to be traditionally Republican and then blinked red-blue-red through the terms of LBJ, JFK and Nixon. Coupled with the state's crippling financial woes is a general feeling that Obama didn't do what he said he would do. I don't think that there's been this much vitriol flying about since the days of Carter.
The biggest issues of this campaign will be unemployment and the national debt, which less than 4 hours ago (at time of posting this), hit $16 trillion.

File:2008prescountymap.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2008prescountymap.PNG)
If you look at a county by county map, California aint as blue as first thought. I'm trying to find a booth-by-booth set of stats, but I bet that the GOP will be campaining harder for turnout than the Democrats will. Admittedly the only polls which matter are on Nov 6 and Dec 17, even so, the last serious statewide poll was done almost 2 months ago.
Rollo I implore you, put away your statistical analysis I have lived here since I was six years old, 1960. California is a very large place. I don't need to look at PDF's to know for instance that San Diego and Orange County were bastions of Conservatives, without even looking at your link. If you lived here you would know this just by reading Op-Ed’s in great Newspapers like the LA Times and The Sacramento Bee. Just listen for a change I don't want to make this into a protracted explanation, so I will tell you some things you may or may not know. People that vote Liberal are generally more educated, and less rural. There has been a huge migration to California of people with upward mobility, (which for the most part require higher education)the vast majority embrace the laid back attitudes here and are very different than the wealthy in other areas of my country, because it is not the same kind of rat race, and move here for no other reason than our temperate climate. Contrary to what outsiders may think, the richest Californians are quite Liberal and also benevolent enough to never back the former head of Bain Capital, to say nothing of the fact that his policies positions are still very nebulous at this late stage in the election process. San Diego not that long ago had a large plurality of military, and further back not too much further a majority, very Conservative.
The Northern 1/2 of California is and has for as long as I remember been to state broadly militantly radical left. It’s no secret that San Francisco, particularly the Castro District is peopled with “Pole Smokers”, “Pillow Biters”, “Butt Pirates”, and "Barnacle Bumpers". I think you know where their sympathies lie. Costal Southern California (except communities around M.C.S. Camp Pendleton and several Air force Bases in the Southern California Desert) are high-end and for the most part left leaning. African Americans and recently naturalized Latin’s, almost all Mexican or from points south are strongly on board with the Democrats. I apologize for going over the top with you in my last post but here is reality. I haven’t read either one of the links you provided because I have and continue to live the experience. This may sound very obtuse to someone who is pedantic like you, but I offer no apologies for that. If you want to discuss whatever talking points that are included in the data you provided you should put out feelers for some else to discuss them with I don't have the time to educate the world on the history of the demographics of my home "The Great State of California"

janvanvurpa

6th September 2012, 19:08

Rollo, I have lived in California for some years, and nostra caro Dottore is right on in his descriptions of the demography of that skinny state.
There are some viscious "I hate everbody 'cept baby jeebus" types in California, but an extreme minority--interestingly primarily what's called 'the Republican core' which is: high school education only, older white males in service or farming trades.
Personally it seems to me to be you'll find these "I hate everybody 'cept baby Jeebus" types in areas directly dependant on an abundance of extremely low cost, usually undocumented workers , which is ironic as those types are constantly barking at people about how they "did everything themselves and nobody ain't never helped me with no handouts" (like the worlds largest water distribution system, or highways, or electricity to water, process and transport the crops the poor Mexicans did the labor to grow, oh no, Nobody ever helped them with anything)

One little note: way back when---in the 1960s in the now affluent suburban area called "Orange County" I heard my relatives there refer to Richard Nixon as "that liberal boy from Whittier". plus ca change, eh? )

chuck34

6th September 2012, 20:42

Why do they hide his real name I wonder? Willie hides his real name, hides his tax returns, hides his off-shore bank accounts, hides how Bain Capital paid

On that note ... why is it that the "genius" Obama has never released any of his school records? What is he hiding?

But he's a wonderful man. :kiss: I'm sure. :s tareup:Just he's seems to hide everything about himself. Could be nothing.
Could be that he learned early on he can do anything he wants regardless of the rules for others, and get away with it.

Could be nothing. Could be that he's really not the "genius" he want everyone to believe he is. Could be something completely different .....

race aficionado

6th September 2012, 21:16

On that note ... why is it that the "genius" Obama has never released any of his school records? What is he hiding?

My first reaction to this post was: "What does this have to do with it being vital information on this election cycle?"

So I went to good ol' Saint Google and got this:

FactCheck.org : Obama’s ‘Sealed’ Records (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/obamas-sealed-records/)

Next . . . . .

chuck34

6th September 2012, 21:29

My first reaction to this post was: "What does this have to do with it being vital information on this election cycle?"

So I went to good ol' Saint Google and got this:

FactCheck.org : Obama’s ‘Sealed’ Records (http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/obamas-sealed-records/)

Next . . . . .

When did I say his records were sealed? I didn't. That's not the issue. College records, and tax returns are not required to be released by Presidential candidates, yet most have voluntarily released both in past elections. Yet we're supposed to believe that Obama is a "genius" and Romney is a "tax cheating fellon" with no proof either way.

And yes I do think that Romney should release more of his tax returns as well as his college records (which I don't believe he has yet).

ioan

6th September 2012, 21:36

Wrong again. Land of the free. Two choices .Vote!

Land of the free? Keep dreamin'.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 01:51

race aficionado

7th September 2012, 04:36

Bring on the debates!
Let's move to the one on ones and let's fact check every fact (or made up fact) that comes from their mouths.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 05:48

Barak dropped the gloves tonight, and and told Mitt "I'm the Champ, I hold the title" and if you think you can kick my @ss, I'm giving you fair warning I will do a tap dance on your face! ;) Kidding

John Kerry knocked one out of the park tonight. I didn't see that one comming! :up:

Roamy

7th September 2012, 06:39

Bring on the debates!
Let's move to the one on ones and let's fact check every fact (or made up fact) that comes from their mouths.

I thought Obama did very well tonite - the critics say he had nothing in the speech. As I saw it he was rallying the havenots against the rich
while not giving anything to Romney to attack on. Pretty clever if you ask me. Class Warfare is the issue and I am not sure Mitt gets it.
I suspect it will take much more than "trickle down" to overtake Obama.

janvanvurpa

7th September 2012, 07:19

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 12:33

Land of the free? Keep dreamin'.

This is perfect example how I like nothing better than people waving flags of foreign countries in front of my face and lecturing me about my freedom.
.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 15:37

I thought Obama did very well tonite - the critics say he had nothing in the speech. As I saw it he was rallying the havenots against the rich
while not giving anything to Romney to attack on. Pretty clever if you ask me. Class Warfare is the issue and I am not sure Mitt gets it.
I suspect it will take much more than "trickle down" to overtake Obama.
You sir are far more malleable than I ever dreamed you were. Then again anyone that is practiced in the art of fly fishing is by nature a contemplative man. I thought the greatest line spoken by The President of the United States of America was spoken when he summoned the words of the greatest President in the history of the USA in my educated opinion….Abraham Lincoln:

“I’ve been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go"

Battle Hymn of the Republic - London 2001 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmpo0csiIMs)

janvanvurpa

7th September 2012, 16:02

This is perfect example how I like nothing better than people waving flags of foreign countries in front of my face and lecturing me about my freedom.
.

That's good. Because from reading what little I have of what you write it seems that you may not have much to compare "your Freedom™'" with, so that's very helpful of them.
You see, some, mostly ignorantes or people who never refelct for more than maybe max 1 second on anything, never really think about the idea of "freedom" and just bark and wail about it----often in a mildly aggressive and hint of aggressive tone..
But just like the idjits who while smacking their chewing gum say in the most grating voice "I expect quality ___________(car, burger, loo paper,whatever) " with thinking the word quality is useless without a modifier like "high" or "good", so wail and growl some about "Freedom" without a seconds reflection, or anything to measure it against...
Indeed, despite the troublesome thoughts that there is "Freedom from......." and "freedom to.....", effectively the word in USA has become a trademark, a code word, and the use is usually without any thought at all.....its all "implied".....presumably..

So you should be happy all those nice foreigners are kind enough to take the time to help give you some depth and something to compare your idea with their idea.. :love:

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 16:19

That's good. Because from reading what little I have of what you write it seems that you may not have much to compare "your Freedom™'" with, so that's very helpful of them.
You see, some, mostly ignorantes or people who never refelct for more than maybe max 1 second on anything, never really think about the idea of "freedom" and just bark and wail about it----often in a mildly aggressive and hint of aggressive tone..
But just like the idjits who while smacking their chewing gum say in the most grating voice "I expect quality ___________(car, burger, loo paper,whatever) " with thinking the word quality is useless without a modifier like "high" or "good", so wail and growl some about "Freedom" without a seconds reflection, or anything to measure it against...
Indeed, despite the troublesome thoughts that there is "Freedom from......." and "freedom to.....", effectively the word in USA has become a trademark, a code word, and the use is usually without any thought at all.....its all "implied".....presumably..

So you should be happy all those nice foreigners are kind enough to take the time to help give you some depth and something to compare your idea with their idea.. :love:

Hmm, if it isn't self appointed profit of liberal agenda traying to say helo to me. Greatings!

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 16:27

Hmm, if it isn't self appointed prophet of liberal agenda traying to say helo to me. Greatings!

Helo again, spelling correction!

janvanvurpa

7th September 2012, 16:40

Hmm, if it isn't self appointed profit of liberal agenda traying to say helo to me. Greatings!

Clearly you need lots and lots of elucidation. It seems you have suffered from a lack of the values that mark a modern civilized society, education being a cornerstone, and I wouldn't agree I am a 'profit', although I do try and earn a profit with all the long hour I put in manufacturing all those suspension parts, but maybe I can be accused of being a prophet of progressive policies...
You have something against 8 hour day? free public education? Unemployment insurance? Workmans compensation for injuries? Clean water? Clean air, equal protection under the law? The right to vote---without you having to take a literacy test which looking at the misspelling in your off hand sentances amount to around 25-30% misspelled word I fear you would fail...

You have something against any that stuff?
It is progressive politics that built this country and made the widespread mass middle class so big.
And as long as this country followed Progressive policies, the middle class was secure---and grew.
You have something against a secure life for the majority of the country?

That's why Obama is so disappointing, because he is far far to the right of what the policies of even moderate Republicans were a generation ago just to get his policy proposals stonewalled by so called Conservatives..people evidently like you..

Why do you hate America?

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 17:38

Clearly you need lots and lots of elucidation. It seems you have suffered from a lack of the values that mark a modern civilized society, education being a cornerstone, and I wouldn't agree I am a 'profit', although I do try and earn a profit with all the long hour I put in manufacturing all those suspension parts, but maybe I can be accused of being a prophet of progressive policies...
You have something against 8 hour day? free public education? Unemployment insurance? Workmans compensation for injuries? Clean water? Clean air, equal protection under the law? The right to vote---without you having to take a literacy test which looking at the misspelling in your off hand sentances amount to around 25-30% misspelled word I fear you would fail...

You have something against any that stuff?
It is progressive politics that built this country and made the widespread mass middle class so big.
And as long as this country followed Progressive policies, the middle class was secure---and grew.
You have something against a secure life for the majority of the country?

That's why Obama is so disappointing, because he is far far to the right of what the policies of even moderate Republicans were a generation ago just to get his policy proposals stonewalled by so called Conservatives..people evidently like you..

Why do you hate America?

One have to be careful ,as it is very tempting to respond and engage in to political debate of one's party association and believes, therefore I will politely excuse myself from the present conversation with anyone with schoolyard bully mentality ,who is trying to play misplaced patriotism card , especially those who use rolling stone magazine as sorce of information on current affairs. I bid you a good day.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 17:49

Rolling Stone is a credible source.

race aficionado

7th September 2012, 18:05

Rolling Stone is a credible source.

I prefer the Beatles :angel: . . . . . and yes, the magazine is a credible responsible source.

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 18:09

Rolling Stone is a credible source.

Perhaps, like every other media outlet ,blog or magazine promoting their own agenda. Don't take me wrong here, but I'm always suspicious of anything written by one for many, and I don't care who they are.

janvanvurpa

7th September 2012, 18:13

One have to be careful ,as it is very tempting to respond and engage in to political debate of one's party association and believes, therefore I will politely excuse myself from the present conversation with anyone with schoolyard bully mentality ,who is trying to play misplaced patriotism card , especially those who use rolling stone magazine as sorce of information on current affairs. I bid you a good day.

Evidently you don't believe in whatever it is you believe in to even put forth a minimal effort at describing why or what you believe in in the context of this important election..

Very strange idea you have about what a discussion forum is all about since your point is "I refuse to discuss anything with anybody who i believe disagrees with what I am thinking " (because you certainly have not written anything at all).

Yep you must be a conservative.

And rather than lamely dismissing the information---including real documents----in the articles ---clearly without having even clicked the links---counter them. Discuss the content..
Few things are more emblematic of the reasons for the paralyzing polarization in my country than the "I don't know about what that article says, I'm not going to even look at that article, but I know its not true, so i won't even look at it."

Again, why do you hate America?

Tazio

7th September 2012, 18:27

Evidently you don't believe in whatever it is you believe in to even put forth a minimal effort at describing why or what you believe in in the context of this important election..

Very strange idea you have about what a discussion forum is all about since your point is "I refuse to discuss anything with anybody who i believe disagrees with what I am thinking " (because you certainly have not written anything at all).

Yep you must be a conservative.

And rather than lamely dismissing the information---including real documents----in the articles ---clearly without having even clicked the links---counter them. Discuss the content..
Few things are more emblematic of the reasons for the paralyzing polarization in my country than the "I don't know about what that article says, I'm not going to even look at that article, but I know its not true, so i won't even look at it."

Again, why do you hate America?It's not hate it is greed. I worked cutting, and finishing marble and granite for the largest granite, and marble company in San Diego. Our products were installed all over this country and many others by our installers. There was a large contingent of first generation American/Italians that were very talented in this field as you can imagine.
Considering my personal ancestry it pains me to say that these were some of the greediest thieving people I've ever known. Many relatively inexpensive accessories had to be locked away because of the rate that they were stolen.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 19:05

^^^^Italian/Americans some were legal alien status, who were probably innocent pawns!

http://www.alicia-logic.com/capsimages/mib_006JonesMikey.jpg

FIAT1

7th September 2012, 20:26

Evidently you don't believe in whatever it is you believe in to even put forth a minimal effort at describing why or what you believe in in the context of this important election..

Very strange idea you have about what a discussion forum is all about since your point is "I refuse to discuss anything with anybody who i believe disagrees with what I am thinking " (because you certainly have not written anything at all).

Yep you must be a conservative.

Again, why do you hate America?

Did you ever come to think about Americans who worked two shifts for years, borrowed money from friends to start little buisness. Did you ever think of people who are traying to survive in this in environment by mortgaging their house and not sleeping at night of worries what's next. Did you ever think of people not letting couple employees go because they have kids in college. I thought so. This American is tired of cute speeches, false hopes and empty promises from every angle.This American doesn't have education of his children and knows how to miss spell word here and there, but this American doesn't need magazine ,or forum propaganda to awaken the senses when it come to love of this country. Before you start pointing fingers and label me by some missguided political view. Before you shoot from the hip ,please think.

Gregor-y

7th September 2012, 22:54

it pains me to say that these were some of the greediest thieving people I've ever known. Many relatively inexpensive accessories had to be locked away because of the rate that they were stolen.
Interesting. The most greedy thief I've ever met was the cab driver that I traveled with from 'Glasgow' Prestwick to the actual city of Glasgow. He wanted to over-charge the fee once he found I was charging the ride to my employer, taking some of the extra for himself and giving me an even higher priced receipt so I could make a bit as well.

On the other hand he was dead honest about it.

Tazio

7th September 2012, 23:19

Sounds like pretty much the same game doesn't it? Do great work for your employer. Steal customers that would have paid more if they were actually going through your employer, and give the customer the same product at a reduced cost while increasing your own take.
It was quite a network they had going as the exspensive product, the vast inventory of granite and mable slab that couldn't be locked awaywas secreted on to company trucks leaving for legitimate Company jobs.

janvanvurpa

8th September 2012, 00:11

Wise move. Even making an attempt at discussions with some will net you nothing more than insults and more insults from certain far left wing radicals if you don't march in lock step with them. The very idea of an open discussion, letting others express views, is a foreign concept. For them, freedom of speech is only for them and doesn't apply to any who may disagree. Funny how the very idea of "freedom" gets changed around.

Yeah what he said, except all the pronouns changed.
dismiss everything without ever looking ..PM your friends so they can gang up and say harumph harumph..
And be a pawn your whole life long.

janvanvurpa

8th September 2012, 00:42

Did you ever come to think about Americans who worked two shifts for years, borrowed money from friends to start little buisness. Did you ever think of people who are traying to survive in this in environment by mortgaging their house and not sleeping at night of worries what's next.

Yeah Antonio
Of course I think of them, I'm one of them. last 7 years I'm up from whenever to sometimes past midnight. Until just about 2 1/2 years ago I was and should have been disabled for almost anything other than standing so i concentrated on machining---making things out of metal..
My personal joke is "Yeah on Christmas I only work 1/2 day: 12 hours"
0730 to midnight 30 is more than 2 shifts in my book.

And I've worked in producing things parts tools machinery for 43 years, except a little break racing motorcycles for a living----which led all those years later to fawked up vertebrae in 2 places, ripped up knees ( 7th knee operation one week ago)
and still working even if I could not see straight..
I have kids, and I have a wife, and a house (bought at 50, first house) .
That is why I work.
I agitate because I want an economy that allows people to buy my products which we had the previous time when we had a Democratic President and a less ideological Conress.
I am not doubting your or anybody's love of country---regardless if you, with an obvious big chip on your shoulder claims I am..
I am saying that you might want to click this links, read the articles---you can read this sheeet, then you can read that---and read how the man whose only card he can really try and throw down is "Obabma increased the deficient by xx %" and smugly claiming that he is a genius at business---when in fact he's a common ordinary financial manipulator who made money by transferring debt to companies and charging outrageous fees and made profit if the business ---and the advice---worked OR NOT.

You don't get paid if you don't do the work--produce something--of whatever you do.
I don't get paid if I don't make the rally car struts and engines that WORK.
He became fabulously wealthy singing convincing songs to businesses in trouble, and bleeding his company's fees whether the place went broke or not---and by passing the debt burden that Bain took out to finace their leveraged buyouts, crushed many companies.....and once they went broke, Bain walked away from the leveraged debt.

Can you do that with debts? just walk away?
I can't.
THEY can
HE did.

No man is an island unto himself, you cannot accomplish much alone none of us can, and you cannot spend the time researching by yourself who this smooth talking born-rich boy is. That is why we read.
Did you ever think of people not letting couple employees go because they have kids in college. I thought so. This American is tired of cute speeches, false hopes and empty promises from every angle.This American doesn't have education of his children and knows how to miss spell word here and there, but this American doesn't need magazine ,or forum propaganda to awaken the senses when it come to love of this country. Before you start pointing fingers and label me by some missguided political view. Before you shoot from the hip ,please think.[/QUOTE]

Tazio

8th September 2012, 03:00

You sir are far more malleable than I ever dreamed you were. Then again anyone that is practiced in the art of fly fishing is by nature a contemplative man. I thought the greatest line spoken by The President of the United States of America was spoken when he summoned the words of the greatest President in the history of the USA in my educated opinion….Abraham Lincoln:

“I’ve been driven to my knees many times by the overwhelming conviction that I had nowhere else to go"

Battle Hymn of the Republic - London 2001 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmpo0csiIMs)In case you are having trouble connecting the dots I offer my humble assistance. Like Lincoln with the same words Obama admits he has had failings. As for the video:
Isn't it sad that all the good will that was shown the USA after 9/11 was squandered by Bush/Cheney/Neo Cons. I hold this in stark contrast to 1991 when Bush Sr. who for reasons that those who understand American Civics I detested, at least had the type of advisors to stop the first gulf war after a real coalition liberated Kuwait (their oil at least, and thier sovereignty) and cut Saddam Hussein’s balls off, leaving Clinton (who like all men had failings) to only have to lob a cruise missile in when Iraq thought they could violate the "No Fly Zone"
I present the following video after that war in stark contrast.

Whitney Houston - Battle Hymn Of The Republic (WHH) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=aSvH4s-4sCQ&NR=1)

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 05:10

Try to see the positive side of this: none of them can be worse than G W Bush.

Considering Obama has been much worse that Bush(Hell he is battling with Carter for worst pres ever), Your premise is flawed.

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 05:13

I don't give a damn what your political affiliation is but I want to know if there is a man woman or child that saw Gaby Gifford recite "The Pledge of Allegiance" at the DNC that was not moved to tears?

I wasn't

All I saw were the same people who booed the alliance with Israel and the Word God being including in the platform then pretending they are pro-America and religion by propping up a victim for some grandstanding.

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 05:18

You have something against 8 hour day? free public education? Unemployment insurance? Workmans compensation for injuries?

Yep....Lots

Why do you against freedom of choice?

It is progressive politics that built this country and made the widespread mass middle class so big.

Bwaaaahahahha You funny!

Why do you hate America?

Sarcasm.....I get it. You hate the real America and what made it great so you question others.....Funny.

Seriously....Why do you hate America, Freedom and the poor?

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 05:23

These are the people of the Democratic party.

These aren't just some schmoes pulled off the street but the duly appointed representatives of party members

Democrats: Let's Ban Profits! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07fTsF5BiSM)

How can anybody who has even and ounce of self-respect vote for these people

Tazio

8th September 2012, 05:47

I wasn't
Why am I not surprised? :p

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 06:43

Why am I not surprised? :p

Let me guess.....You think she is a "hero"

Jag_Warrior

8th September 2012, 06:47

Considering Obama has been much worse that Bush(Hell he is battling with Carter for worst pres ever), Your premise is flawed.

Opinions about Obama and Carter aside, when I read these opinions of one recent President or another being the worst in history or the best in history, I'm easily reminded of my sig line quote:

"Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

I doubt an actual historian would put Carter or Obama in the league of Warren G. Harding, Herbert Hoover or Andrew Johnson. My fascination with history tends to be more focused on ancient Rome than on U.S. history. So I'm not any sort of American historian either. But I recall enough American history from my earlier academic years that I wouldn't overstate *relatively* minor events in modern history and compare them to much more major events in the more distant past.

I'm not a huge Obama fan these days either. But I do have to say, for all of the hyperbole and nonsensical hand-wringing that is tossed around concerning the man and his supposed radical beliefs, if this country can't survive under his Presidency, then quite possibly it shouldn't survive anyway. Too many people (on the left and the right) are too caught up in the tempest in a teapot of the here & now, and lack a proper historical perspective, IMO.

No real point, political or otherwise. Just a general observation. :dozey:

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 07:07

Opinions about Obama and Carter aside, when I read these opinions of one recent President or another being the worst in history or the best in history, I'm easily reminded of my sig line quote:

"Every generation's memory is exactly as long as its own experience." --John Kenneth Galbraith

That is something a pretentious, pompous, self-serving, person like Galbraith would say. It is because of people like Galbraith and his hatred of personal freedom and personal responsibility and his love of big government and high taxes that we are in the economic problems today.

I doubt an actual historian would put Carter or Obama in the league of Warren G. Harding, Herbert Hoover or Andrew Johnson. My fascination with history tends to be more focused on ancient Rome than on U.S. history. So I'm not any sort of American historian either. But I recall enough American history from my earlier academic years that I wouldn't overstate *relatively* minor events in modern history and compare them to much more major events in the more distant past.

I'm not a huge Obama fan these days either. But I do have to say, for all of the hyperbole and nonsensical hand-wringing that is tossed around concerning the man and his supposed radical beliefs, if this country can't survive under his Presidency, then quite possibly it shouldn't survive anyway. Too many people (on the left and the right) are too caught up in the tempest in a teapot of the here & now, and lack a proper historical perspective, IMO.

No real point, political or otherwise. Just a general observation. :dozey:

I could care less about what "most historians" think. They are the same people who claim the JFK was a great president. Carter easily oversaw the worse 4 years any administration in US history.

High unemployment, High Inflation. Gave away US territory, His abandonment of US allies directly led to the world's problem in Iran and the Taliban. He allowed US territory to be invaded and our people held hostage and did little or nothing(Except for some stupid special forces mission that most of the military knew was doomed to failure)

Just tell me one significant, positive thing that happened in his administration. Just one!

Tazio

8th September 2012, 07:59

Let me guess.....You think she is a "hero"
Not at all dog, that is why the preface to that original comment said specifically that it was not a political statement. How could you misunderstand my meaning, are you drinking tonight Tony?
I only saw how normal she was before some sick fvck blew her head off, and it is sad that she can barely talk, and can barely walk as a result of her brain injury. I would say her husband could be considered a hero by people that practice hero worship, (which I don't) considering that he was pilot, and commander of four space shuttle missions.

janvanvurpa

8th September 2012, 08:09

janvanvurpa

8th September 2012, 09:26

That is something a pretentious, pompous, self-serving, person like Galbraith would say. It is because of people like Galbraith and his hatred of personal freedom and personal responsibility and his love of big government and high taxes that we are in the economic problems today.

Yeah, you da man Vop. A man whose life it is to talk about the trivial accomplishments of people playing, you're a real historian..
Must have been just a coincidence that he was chosen to run the entire wage and price control sytem for the country and fooled everybody into thinking he knew something...
But you a salesman got him figured out.

That should have given you the job..
And it must have been a coincidence that the wealth and productivity and position of the USA worldwide was at its highest ever when people were letting this Freedom hating Feds be so involved with the the country's economy. Almost 30 years of record improvements in standard of living, level of education, transportation infrastructure, all getting better year by year..
until it all stalled for most people.

I could care less about what "most historians" think. They are the same people who claim the JFK was a great president. Carter easily oversaw the worse 4 years any administration in US history.

Thankfully, most of the world couldn't care less that you can care less about what most historians think..
Just how much more could you care less?

Vop I know you're just short of the level needed to instutionionalize people, but rather than repeat your or your masters tired garbage, and thinking that this is an international forum and many here are not life time economic historians like you in your mind imagine you are,
could you tell us why there was high inflation way before and after Carter's term?

The records show that inflation, which was at a moderate 3.25% in Nixon's second term, began to grow much faster sometime after summer of 1971, and really took off in 1972 and jumped way up in the fall of 1973.
You who could care less about most historians position yourself as knowing enough to discount them. So tell the world what was occuring so far earlier than Carters term to cause this inflation.

Unemployent was up at the 535,000 American troops in Viet Nam returned home and additional hundreds of thousands of other military were demobilized while American leadership re-set the goals and searched for targets that the strongest and best equipped military in the world could manage to beat, but if high unemployment was bad in Carters term , why was it equally high in Ford's term, and why aren't you regaling us with your wisdom about how horrible he was?
And where are your contemptuous rantings about Reagan whose terms saw both high unemployment and high inflation and, until he raised taxes several times, stagnation?

High unemployment, High Inflation. Gave away US territory, His abandonment of US allies directly led to the world's problem in Iran and the Taliban. He allowed US territory to be invaded and our people held hostage and did little or nothing(Except for some stupid special forces mission that most of the military knew was doomed to failure)

Just tell me one significant, positive thing that happened in his administration. Just one![/QUOTE]

Tazio

8th September 2012, 11:41

Watch Gabby Giffords lead the pledge of allegiance at DNC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEuWuqZigD4)

ioan

8th September 2012, 12:06

Perhaps, like every other media outlet ,blog or magazine promoting their own agenda.

Is there any media outlet that doesn't do exactly that?!

ioan

8th September 2012, 12:10

Did you ever come to think about Americans who worked two shifts for years, borrowed money from friends to start little buisness.

Yep, thought a lot about that and the conclusion is that there is something rotten in the system if you have to go through all that pain to start a little business.
In Europe you have more freedom and support if you want to start a little business.

FIAT1

8th September 2012, 13:29

Yep, thought a lot about that and the conclusion is that there is something rotten in the system if you have to go through all that pain to start a little business.
In Europe you have more freedom and support if you want to start a little business.

Ok, than open buisness there, but don't come here and tell me that my house stinks. I love it here, I love the system and yes I have made choice to work double and go through the pain of running the business, and I don't mind ,but what I do mind is others tell me what to do with it. I do mind when I'm told I didn't build it. When this election theater is over, there is gona be a man standing doing what he always does ,going to work traying to help his buisness ,his country and fellow man on the principle of his character, not because political party faithful told him do so.

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 13:30

Contentless assertions, repeated for years on end is not an answer. It is what it always has been hot air..
Some people, utterly berift on anything resembling ordinary humanity, believe that they can just say "no it's not" and that is discussion..
They are the people destroying this once functioning country..

makes you wonder if its really the geographic location that makes Florida air so hot and miserable.....or if it's the hot air pumped out non-stop by so many there?

Holy Hyperbole!

What does one do when they cannot actually defend their beliefs.....? Do what janvanvurpa does and personally attack those who dare question you.
Sure it is cliche and predictable but those who agree with you aren't actually free thinks anyway so you have nothing to lose.

The really sad part is that it is those on the left who have no humanity and actually believe they are helping people with their self-serving policies. They say the want to help the poor but then enact policies that only raise costs. They say they are fighting racism and then they everything they can to prevent a level playing field. They claim they want to jump start the economy but then they strangle small businesses with over regulation and cronyism.

Tazio

8th September 2012, 14:45

Yep, thought a lot about that and the conclusion is that there is something rotten in the system if you have to go through all that pain to start a little business.
In Europe you have more freedom and support if you want to start a little business.
And you have it in the U.S. always have. Those who claim otherwise are just ignorant or greedy. The issue is that the incumbent wants to leave it that way, and the challenger wants to take away those systems. It's simple brainwashing, which you and any other educated person understands and can see through. At the bottom it is really racism rearing its ugly head. The government is and should help it's citizens, and many people are too anti American to care for their countrymen.

FIAT1

8th September 2012, 16:01

And you have it in the U.S. always have. Those who claim otherwise are just ignorant or greedy. The issue is that the incumbent wants to leave it that way, and the challenger wants to take away those systems. It's simple brainwashing, which you and any other educated person understands and can see through. At the bottom it is really racism rearing its ugly head. The government is and should help it's citizens, and many people are too anti American to care for their countrymen.

Yep,when everything else fails, race card comes in to play. Typical .Play the class warfare card.

Tazio

8th September 2012, 16:15

If you don't think that a lot resistance to this president is racially motivated it may me be that you were abducted by aliens and had your brains jettisoned at a close proximity to Uranus. I dare say I am in a class well of above yours so that has nothing to do with it. Do you know that in the Book of Morman it states that the darker your skin is the more evil you are. Why don't you read the doctrine of the religion of the man you are supporting, or maybe not why don't you just get back to me after the election and we can go from there

Tazio

8th September 2012, 16:47

It would be ignorant to deny that race is a motivating factor for some people. There will always be those who are that misguided. However, you imply by the use of the words "a lot" that racism is a major motivating factor. It is not.

FIAT1's point is well taken. The race card is a leftist's "go to" insult for all occasions. If anyone disagrees they must, de facto, be a racist. Shame on you.It's in the book.

And [God] had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities." (2 Nephi 5:21) but you are right it is not that simplistic. as it could be argued that support of Obama is racially motivated. What do you say to a large part of his constituancy that continue to argue that he was not even born in America. That is what I'm talking about.

Tazio

8th September 2012, 16:49

You have misrepresented the position of the challenger. The point being that government in the US has, through bureaucracy, made it more difficult to start new enterprises. A cutting back on some redundant and non pertinent regulations is a good thing. The very nature of bureaucracy is self justification and expansion. Any government suffers from this over time. Pruning back is almost always a good thing.That includes cutting taxes of the richest Americans? I own a business in California I see no excessive bureaucratic hurdles. What we have are disappearing jobs many just through automation. Times are changing we have to all realize that it is tumultuous even inevitable. It is not a reason to oppose low interest rates on student loans so we have a level field for the jobs of the future. It’s called investing in your country. We will work through it even though it may be awkward. At any rate it has been an interesting exchange I'm going on the road and will try to keep up with the conversation, see ya.

Jag_Warrior

8th September 2012, 17:50

That is something a pretentious, pompous, self-serving, person like Galbraith would say. It is because of people like Galbraith and his hatred of personal freedom and personal responsibility and his love of big government and high taxes that we are in the economic problems today.

No matter how one might characterize the man, I believe that that particular quote is quite true. It's very common for people to be blind to the past and not have an historical perspective as they judge the relative importance of events over time. People just have this tendency to overstate the importance of the time in which they live... because that's all they really know. That's all Galbraith was trying to express and I believe that several of the comments in this thread give credence to the accuracy of that statement.

I could care less about what "most historians" think. They are the same people who claim the JFK was a great president.

Not all historians (or even most) are on the same page about every President. They have their opinions and you have yours. But (and no offense intended) I would say that actual historians are probably a good deal more objective and less biased than you, as they rank various Presidents.

Carter easily oversaw the worse 4 years any administration in US history.

Ah yes, but I hear Galbraith's quote playing just now. ;) If you actually believe that, then I suggest you do a bit of comparative reading on the Andrew Johnson administration, and especially that of Herbert Hoover.

High unemployment, High Inflation. Gave away US territory, His abandonment of US allies directly led to the world's problem in Iran and the Taliban. He allowed US territory to be invaded and our people held hostage and did little or nothing(Except for some stupid special forces mission that most of the military knew was doomed to failure)

I'll see your Jimmy Carter and raise you a George W. Bush. :dozey:

Just tell me one significant, positive thing that happened in his administration. Just one!

I'll give you a couple - at no extra charge: the Camp David Agreement, where he brought together Israel and Egypt. Also, the creation of 8 million jobs during his administration. George W. Bush was actually the first President since Herbert Hoover to experience a net loss of jobs over the course of his administration. Every administration has some positives, Anthony - even if the net is a negative.

I'm not a fan of Jimmy Carter or his administration. But in comparison to where George W. Bush took the country by the time he left office and where it was when Carter left office, I believe Bush wins the Donkey of the Race trophy pretty easily... if we go by actual data and facts.

But my point remains: through good administrations and bad ones, a truly great nation survives and eventually prospers. That's the way it has always been for the U.S. and that's the way it will always be... until the people of this republic stop believing in themselves, and they allow the republic to fold up and die. In times of adversity, my grandfather often said this: "the same heat that melts butter, tempers steel."

So IMO, it really just comes down to whether the people of this nation (current and future generations) are butter or steel. IMO, we have waaay too many Chicken Little types these days, who are predicting that the sky is falling whenever things aren't going exactly the way they think they should be. They are butter. They are weak. They are in the way.

FIAT1

8th September 2012, 18:01

. Do you know that in the Book of Morman it states that the darker your skin is the more evil you are. Why don't you read the doctrine of the religion of the man you are supporting, or maybe not why don't you just get back to me after the election and we can go from there

Thank you for the heads up, I will make sure to stay away from the beach and tanning salon just in case Romney wins I don't want to be in trouble.

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 18:09

That includes cutting taxes of the richest Americans? I own a business in California I see no excessive bureaucratic hurdles.

You are either lying or blind.

Right now Amazon is experiencing a surge in sales to California due to the new internet sales tax law they have imposed.

anthonyvop

8th September 2012, 18:14

I'll give you a couple - at no extra charge: the Camp David Agreement, where he brought together Israel and Egypt.

HA 100's of Billions of $$$ wasted to buy a false peace only to have Sadat Assassinated along with any hope of Democracy taking root in Egypt.

Also, the creation of 8 million jobs during his administration. .

Try again
The Problem with Tax Credits - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055394016616742.html)

Jag_Warrior

8th September 2012, 19:05

HA 100's of Billions of $$$ wasted to buy a false peace only to have Sadat Assassinated along with any hope of Democracy taking root in Egypt.

And who was it that assassinated Sadat... and why did they do that? ;) The Camp David Peace Accord was seen as a very positive and significant thing, no matter how it turned out for some of the individual players. As for your belief/opinion that hundreds of billions were wasted, that's fine. But let's compare that supposed number (which I doubt is correct) to the actual costs of Operation Iraqi Freedom: approximately $825 billion through FY2012. There is also the question of $10-$15 billion in American cash that is yet to be accounted for, sent over by the Bush Administration, that is apparently floating around in someone's pocket in Iraq. This nation-building exercise has turned out to be the second costliest "war" in American history, just behind World War II. And for the record, I am very much in favor of slashing ALL foreign aid, including that to Israel. It's time for others to pull their own weight, without relying on the American taxpayer.

So anyway, the (factual, data based) evidence mounts: W. Bush brought us the second costliest war in American history and the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. Our pal, George W.: Winna, winna, chicken dinna! :bounce:

Try again
The Problem with Tax Credits - WSJ.com (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704820904575055394016616742.html)

That's nice but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I posted: there were approximately 8 million jobs created during Carter's administration. You wanted one single positive and I gave you a positive. If 8 million jobs had been created during W. Bush's administration (instead of a net loss), I would also list that as a positive for him. So no, no need for me to try again. I gave you what you asked for the first time. :)

ioan

8th September 2012, 20:13

Ok, than open buisness there, but don't come here and tell me that my house stinks. I love it here, I love the system and yes I have made choice to work double and go through the pain of running the business, and I don't mind ,but what I do mind is others tell me what to do with it. I do mind when I'm told I didn't build it. When this election theater is over, there is gona be a man standing doing what he always does ,going to work traying to help his buisness ,his country and fellow man on the principle of his character, not because political party faithful told him do so.

Instead of complaining about my criticism you should read it, understand it, discuss it and possibly try to improve what you have, because by all accounts it is far from good enough.
Or you can continue complaining and live with the illusions that all is fine.

BTW, here it isn't perfect either, we know it and try to improve it.

Tazio

8th September 2012, 20:15

You are either lying or blind.

Right now Amazon is experiencing a surge in sales to California due to the new internet sales tax law they have imposed.I will gladly produce the legal documents of my Sole Proprietorship. I'm not blind, although I do require reading glasses ;) That law arguably has taken the fun out of making purchases over the internet. It is tempered with a lowering of said sales tax, but then again it may reduce the rate of obesity, something I think you should be addressing as I have seen your webcast.......

donKey jote

8th September 2012, 20:47

:o :arrows: :laugh:

FIAT1

8th September 2012, 20:51

Instead of complaining about my criticism you should read it, understand it, discuss it and possibly try to improve what you have, because by all accounts it is far from good enough.
Or you can continue complaining and live with the illusions that all is fine.

BTW, here it isn't perfect either, we know it and try to improve it.

Read again, I have said I love it here, I love the system and yes I have made choice to work double and go through the pain of running the business, and I don't mind ,BUT WHAT i DO MIND FOR OTHERS TELLING ME WHAT TO DO WITH IT and I do mind when I'm told I didn't build it. When this election theater is over, there is gona be a man standing doing what he always does ,going to work traying to help his buisness ,his country and fellow man on the principle of his character, not because political party faithful told him do so.

BTW there's plenty of advice here that is irrelevant to my life and interest including yours. Thanks all pass..

ioan

8th September 2012, 21:45

janvanvurpa

8th September 2012, 22:35

Perhaps, but most places not. I can't help but notice that there is still a line of people trying to get in and not so many trying to get out. ;)

Oh but that's where you are wrong. and that's fully understandable because you really don't know anything about even this country really much less any other country..

There are lines waiting to get in almost everywhere.
France, UK, Canada, Germany, Italy, NL, Sweden, Finland, even Russia, even in People's Republic of China, into various other American countries from others. that's because there is , except some real desperate places, always somewhere better.

We are in the midst, worldwide, of the largest migrations of people in history.
So, it's not just the USA..
(Once again the shortsighted, Americo-centric conceit that gets our country in trouble everywhere is displayed...Amazing really in this day of the WORLD Wide Web.)(I guess it proves the insular, and unaware world view that is prevalent in this still great Country)

Tazio

8th September 2012, 23:28

Oh but that's where you are wrong. and that's fully understandable because you really don't know anything about even this country really much less any other country..

There are lines waiting to get in almost everywhere.
France, UK, Canada, Germany, Italy, NL, Sweden, Finland, even Russia, even in People's Republic of China, into various other American countries from others. that's because there is , except some real desperate places, always somewhere better.

We are in the midst, worldwide, of the largest migrations of people in history.
So, it's not just the USA..
(Once again the shortsighted, Americo-centric conceit that gets our country in trouble everywhere is displayed...Amazing really in this day of the WORLD Wide Web.)(I guess it proves the insular, and unaware world view that is prevalent in this still great Country)Jan, In Baseball Parlance:
"You just went yard"

FIAT1

9th September 2012, 00:02

What you didn't get is that I did not criticize you, it all started when I said that the freedom you think you have in the USA is an illusion and that there is more freedom elsewhere.
Not sure why you took it personally, but then again that is your issue not mine.

Elsewhere perhaps ,but rest assured I love and I'm content with my illusion of the freedom in my country and would never be tempted to exchange it for any other, especially for the country whos flag you're waving, therefore I don't see a need for you knocking on my door and giving me a lecture on the matter .

TheFamousEccles

9th September 2012, 01:50

anthonyvop

9th September 2012, 05:20

And who was it that assassinated Sadat... and why did they do that? ;) The Camp David Peace Accord was seen as a very positive and significant thing, no matter how it turned out for some of the individual players. As for your belief/opinion that hundreds of billions were wasted, that's fine. But let's compare that supposed number (which I doubt is correct) to the actual costs of Operation Iraqi Freedom: approximately $825 billion through FY2012. There is also the question of $10-$15 billion in American cash that is yet to be accounted for, sent over by the Bush Administration, that is apparently floating around in someone's pocket in Iraq. This nation-building exercise has turned out to be the second costliest "war" in American history, just behind World War II. And for the record, I am very much in favor of slashing ALL foreign aid, including that to Israel. It's time for others to pull their own weight, without relying on the American taxpayer.

So anyway, the (factual, data based) evidence mounts: W. Bush brought us the second costliest war in American history and the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. Our pal, George W.: Winna, winna, chicken dinna! :bounce:

That's nice but it doesn't have anything to do with the fact that I posted: there were approximately 8 million jobs created during Carter's administration. You wanted one single positive and I gave you a positive. If 8 million jobs had been created during W. Bush's administration (instead of a net loss), I would also list that as a positive for him. So no, no need for me to try again. I gave you what you asked for the first time. :)

You have yet to post one thing positive to come out of the Carter Administration. The Camp David Accords just legitimized Islamo-Fascism and those job numbers were false.

Try again.

anthonyvop

9th September 2012, 05:23

anthonyvop

9th September 2012, 05:23

Like most of those on the left Logic escapes them

How 'Pro-Choice' are Democrats? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwejQBIyjow&feature=player_embedded)

9th September 2012, 06:33

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9th September 2012, 06:40

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Jag_Warrior

9th September 2012, 07:15

You have yet to post one thing positive to come out of the Carter Administration. The Camp David Accords just legitimized Islamo-Fascism and those job numbers were false.

Try again.

I see. No Anthony, no more "try again". I don't waste my time posting facts to people who deny facts. 2+2 doesn't equal 4 if one insists on not believing it.

anthonyvop

9th September 2012, 14:02

I see. No Anthony, no more "try again". I don't waste my time posting facts to people who deny facts. 2+2 doesn't equal 4 if one insists on not believing it.

Facts are facts....except for those on the left. For them facts are things that back up their beliefs no matter if true or not.

Jag_Warrior

9th September 2012, 21:38

Since when did figures from the Bureau of Labor Statistics become a "left wing source"??? Doing a bad imitation of Michele Bachmann just causes people to not take a fellow seriously, Anthony. If every statistical fact that you don't like must be denied, and somehow feeds into some kind of dopey, half-thought out conspiracy theory, well... people will just think you're kind of goofy. Ya know? :dozey:

http://img104.imagevenue.com/loc492/th_173387645_private_sector_job_creation_by_presid ent_political_party_122_492lo.jpg (http://img104.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=173387645_private_sector_job_creatio n_by_president_political_party_122_492lo.jpg)

Jobs Created in Thousands President Political Party

8,592 Jimmy Carter Democrat

*To read additional information, click on United States Bureau of Labor Statistics (http://www.bls.gov/).

Rollo

9th September 2012, 21:41

Like most of those on the left Logic escapes them

How 'Pro-Choice' are Democrats? - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwejQBIyjow&feature=player_embedded)

Political Party Quiz (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2012/quiz/)

The Left.... on which axis?
I come out on all sorts of test as being being both extremely left and extremely right if more than one axis is involved.

If you insist on using such a glib coverall term, please define it.

janvanvurpa

9th September 2012, 21:53

Facts are facts....except for those on the left. For them facts are things that back up their beliefs no matter if true or not.

Facts are facts.
But silly people saying "You're wrong. Try again" is not a fact. It is an assertion..and without anything to back up an assertion it is useless.

And you arguing about Carter is not on topic. They are off topic.
rules are rules and
Recently we saw this:

pino (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/pino-73487/) http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/statusicon/user-online.png Moderator http://www.motorsportforums.com/avatars/pino.gif?dateline=1308475491 (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/pino-73487/) Join DateJan 2002LocationSanremo ItalyPosts23,907
:p aper:
Just a note to everyone :

From now on all off-topic or personal comments will be punished with a month ban !

See you in a month.. :imubash: if of course Pino applies his warnings fairly.

Now, back to 2012 presidential Elections.

It seems Willard thinks everybody has as poor a memory as he has.. Not being very original or creative--or knowing his base can't remember last week much less 4 years ago, or 30 years ago, he's recycling Reagans
Are you better off now than....."

Well my creaky memory says the US was losing 700,000 per month when Obama took office.

And I'd have to look, but I think the Dow-Jones was January 18, 2008 ......12,099.30 and now its September 7, 2012.....13,306.64

Now individually a lost job or not finding a good one is rough so the question "are YOU better off" is probably the wrong question. Maybe its like a soldier in a fox-hole on a front 1000 miles long. He may in a quiet sector and just comfy as can be.. or he may be under heavy artillery fire and know he's in a world of sheeet. But the simplistic question "well Private, are you better off today than you were 4 years ago?" may not be the question that is going to answer if THE WHOLE ARMY is going to win, and then he gets to survive.

So ain't losing 700,000 jobs a month.. Ain't as good as it could be but regardless of where you stand we cannot forget what McConnel said about their only goal is make sure Obabma is out of work in Jan 2013, that obstruction has been overt, obstruction of almost any and any proposal the tea-Bagger infected Rebublicans themselves didn't draft.

And obstruction of proposals in fact that are identical to their own proposal as the Obamacare was drafted by the same person as worked for Romney in Massachusetts, and that was the same guy who drafted the 1994 Republican plan.
It was OK in 1994 when it was Republican Plan
It was OK when it was Romneys plan
Same plan is totalitarian when the title page has somebody elses' name on it..

So are you better off?
I'm not.
Are WE better off?
I don't know.
But I do know returning those who let their close friends and relations gorge themselves into delirium to the point that they had brought the entire financial system to within hours of collapse isn't an option.

And while Obama has a lot of friends amongst the savages of Wall Street, he knows there is another side to the world.

fandango

9th September 2012, 22:02

One of the problems with getting into a debate with anthonyvop is that he never says things like "I see your point but..." or "That's a fair point" or "Yes, well, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one". He only seems to debate with people he completely disagrees with, and gives the impression that he thinks they are total idiots (gives the impression to me, anyway). There's another Republican party supporter on here who often does that too. Not sure if that's a pattern.

I try to follow donkey jote's advice of "never argue with a fool, other people won't know the difference", which makes me wonder why anthonyvop bothers to debate points with people whose viewpoint he has no respect for. So, it's a pity, 'cause he's most likely someone who you could sit down and have a beer with. So it goes...

janvanvurpa

10th September 2012, 01:10

Political Party Quiz (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/vote2012/quiz/)

The Left.... on which axis?
I come out on all sorts of test as being being both extremely left and extremely right if more than one axis is involved.

If you insist on using such a glib coverall term, please define it.

Well for Vop isn't it obvious? Anybody to the left of Ghengis Kahn is a filthy dirty socialist and deserves to die

But again this is veering off topic...Presidential Elections mmmm-kay?

Rollo

10th September 2012, 01:16

You have yet to post one thing positive to come out of the Carter Administration.

Try again.

How about the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act, or the 1980 Motor Carrier Act or the 1980 Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act?
Those three acts deregulated the Airlines, the Trucking Industry and the Finance Industry.

You should like all of those.

janvanvurpa

10th September 2012, 01:23

How about the 1978 Airline Deregulation Act, or the 1980 Motor Carrier Act or the 1980 Depository Institutions Deregulation and Monetary Control Act?
Those three acts deregulated the Airlines, the Trucking Industry and the Finance Industry.

You should like all of those.

And all those things went to hell with catastrophic losses for millions, yeah deregulation, Great!

Rollo

10th September 2012, 03:17

And all those things went to hell with catastrophic losses for millions, yeah deregulation, Great!

Well I know this and you know this, but deregulation is a free-market policy. The lifting of regulation to a laissez-faire position is rightist by definition.

From Mr Vop's point of view, the removal of regulation must be a good thing because it must have encouraged greater efficiencies in those industries.

Gregor-y

10th September 2012, 17:40

Just be thankful AVop hasn't been posting the race-baiting rhetoric that got the entire off topic section of specialstage.com shut down during the last election because no one had the balls to ban him.

Romney spent the weekend moving back to the center, particularly on health care. On one hand pledging to repeal 'Obamacare' and on the other saying he wants to keep key provisions such as protecting people from 'preexisting condition' clauses and allowing children to stay on parents' plans well into their 20s.

The President got a bear hug from a registered Republican.
Obama gets airborne bear hug - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdWSdiRVlpc)

anthonyvop

10th September 2012, 19:24

ioan

10th September 2012, 19:47

Elsewhere perhaps ,but rest assured I love and I'm content with my illusion of the freedom in my country and would never be tempted to exchange it for any other, especially for the country whos flag you're waving, therefore I don't see a need for you knocking on my door and giving me a lecture on the matter .

:laugh:
I saw this knee jerk reaction coming from you! :D
FYI I left that country 14 years ago and I live in the capital city with the highest quality of life around the globe, because I am not a nationalist and will not accept anything that is not meeting my expectations. :)

ioan

10th September 2012, 19:48

Facts are facts....except for those on the left. For them facts are things that back up their beliefs no matter if true or not.

Get a mirror and take a good look into it.

Starter

10th September 2012, 19:55

Romney spent the weekend moving back to the center, particularly on health care. On one hand pledging to repeal 'Obamacare' and on the other saying he wants to keep key provisions such as protecting people from 'preexisting condition' clauses and allowing children to stay on parents' plans well into their 20s.

The President got a bear hug from a registered Republican.
Obama gets airborne bear hug - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdWSdiRVlpc)
There were a couple of good things in the healthcare bill. It went on for twenty two hundred some pages, there should have been a couple good things along with the junk.

No one should be surprised that Romney is moving to the center, that's where most Americans are anyway and it's his history too. I realize he had to run from the right just to get the nomination, that is the unfortunate way American politics are these days on both sides.

FIAT1

10th September 2012, 20:00

:laugh:
I saw this knee jerk reaction coming from you! :D
FYI I left that country 14 years ago and I live in the capital city with the highest quality of life around the globe, because I am not a nationalist and will not accept anything that is not meeting my expectations. :)

Ok than, keep on barking. Label me all you want , I'm happy here!

ioan

10th September 2012, 20:10

Ok than, keep on barking. Label me all you want , I'm happy here!

Not sure why you are getting so worked up again, but hey more freedom to you, just so you can express yourself freely around here! :D

FIAT1

10th September 2012, 20:23

Not sure why you are getting so worked up again, but hey more freedom to you, just so you can express yourself freely around here! :D

I see, you found little time in the middle of freedom activist movement to play frendly game of tag, okay you're at!

ioan

10th September 2012, 22:14

I see, you found little time in the middle of freedom activist movement to play frendly game of tag, okay you're at!

Here, news about your kind of freedom:

Guantanamo prisoner found dead, U.S. military says - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/guantanamo-prisoner-found-dead-u-military-says-162737813.html)

The best part:

The dead man was not among the small group currently facing charges in the war crimes tribunal at the Guantanamo base in eastern Cuba, and he had not been designated as eligible for prosecution, said Navy Captain Robert Durand, a spokesman for the detention operation.

If he wasn't to be prosecuted then why is he kept prisoner in a US navy base?

USA=freedom?! Good joke!

If Obama couldn't close the Guantanamo 'surfing' facility then none of your presidents will do it, whomever you elect.

Gregor-y

10th September 2012, 22:26

You better have something to back up that allegation.

You know what? You're right. That was someone else who wrote offensive posts. It was rallytaff. Sorry about that; my bad.

FIAT1

10th September 2012, 23:55

[quote="ioan"] The best part:

anthonyvop

11th September 2012, 01:10

You know what? You're right. That was someone else who wrote offensive posts. It was rallytaff. Sorry about that; my bad.

Typical attitude of those on the left. You apology is not accepted and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Rollo

11th September 2012, 01:48

No one should be surprised that Romney is moving to the center, that's where most Americans are anyway and it's his history too. I realize he had to run from the right just to get the nomination, that is the unfortunate way American politics are these days on both sides.

The Republican right also includes the Tea Party which is bordering on lunacy and the Christian Right who for the most part are economically illiterate, don't really read scripture but can be whipped into a mawkish frenzy by mentioning "abortion" or "gay marriage".
Actually I find it somewhat strange that there's a push to remove the mention of God from every single government institution but immediately before any election the political parties do their little dance to make the Christian Right vote for them. There's almost a cognitive dissonance about it.

Romney has to perform an interesting dance with the right. Economically he pretty well much lives there, but to be electable he's had to make himself appear as though he understands normal people.

"Our desk was a door propped up on saw horses, our dining room table was a fold-down ironing board in the kitchen. But those were the best days." - Ann Romney at the RNC

I'm not sure if I exactly believe that story but it sounds emotive enough and considering that almost no serious journalistic fact-checking is going on, no-one will find out either.

janvanvurpa

11th September 2012, 02:05

You know what? You're right. That was someone else who wrote offensive posts. It was rallytaff. Sorry about that; my bad.

I was going to point that out to you. There was one point before I became disgusted with the selective and petty so called moderating there that the decrepit bag of bones, that turncoat who swore allegiance to his Queen who then on a whim, just chucked that over the shoulder, and abandoned the land ofg his birth to come and plague us here, he had filled the first one and a half full pages at 'threads" of "Off Topics" with FreeRebublic.org type headlines, Headlines like "Worse than Nazis..BLM closing an off road vehicle area!!!!!" and other insane drivel and then links and no comments to various extremist hate sites and of course no responses to any of his threads..

So while its the same style and tone and "depth" of analysis, and I could see how you could transpose them, it wasn't Vop..

Do you think you should ban yourself for making a typical left wing mistake, sure sounded like he was getting angry.

And apropos this thread, yep heard that... Some say its a shame, but I would bet they were screaming "flip-flop" when anybody else might have reverse course. These days it doesn't seem to matter, and the lib'ral press just sits passively by nodding Uh hum...

So should we start a list to remind everybody of the major WIllard flip flops?

Starter

11th September 2012, 03:48

The Republican right also includes the Tea Party which is bordering on lunacy and the Christian Right who for the most part are economically illiterate, don't really read scripture but can be whipped into a mawkish frenzy by mentioning "abortion" or "gay marriage".
It would be a mistake to characterize all people who have positions in the above two groups as either stupid or crazy. While it's true that some of the more rabid and extreme have taken front page (blame the media for overly sensationalizing), many are just nice people who have certain core beliefs, particularly on religious matters. I don't agree with them on many things, but I respect their positions. The Tea Party especially has been high jacked by the (relatively few) wackos when it was founded by more moderate people who were just disgusted with both major political parties.

Romney has to perform an interesting dance with the right. Economically he pretty well much lives there, but to be electable he's had to make himself appear as though he understands normal people.
You haven't been paying close attention. You have it backwards. An interesting dance, true, but the other way. Romney actually has a record and as Governor of Massachusetts was in the center. He needs the support of the right to get elected. I think you also confuse being successful in business as automatically meaning he can't or won't be mindful of people who work for a living. A false premise - see Warren Buffett or Bill Gates (as well as many others) for examples. Try and cut through the garbage. The Democrats and left throw out just as much crap as the republicans and the right.

janvanvurpa

11th September 2012, 04:43

Some people with memory will recall that the RNC who organsied in those days and may still a Monday morning conference call with all the favorite darling child talking heads of the AM radio would feed Rush and Hennity and that slimy Carlson twerp (my last wife was a classmate and said he was a little weasly brown-nosing punk then) and Beck, all the prime sources of all knowledge for some, their weekly "key words" for them to repeat constantly---and about 18 months before the last election when it looked pretty clear that the Bush/Cheny crime family had poisoned things for Republicans, they all simultaneously began repeating "They're all corrupt, ALL of them".....

So some may say "many are just nice people who have certain core beliefs, particularly on religious matters." and some could counter that if they are misled and delusional and paranoid in one area, it should not be surprising that they are delusional and paranoid and easily misled in any other. Earth is 6439 years, check. man lived with dinosaurs, check, Son of Gawd talks in their ear, check, Obama is a Nazi dictator using armies of illegal Mexicans, to build FEMA camps with Death Panels where all Patriots will be herded as soon as they're disarmed because he is a Muslim Kenyan Communist, check.

In short maybe they are disgusted with both because the Koch Brothers and such like have decided that is one way to engender hate and contempt for the political process---since democracy stands in their way, and so the bought and paid for talking AM radio head obediently do their part.

You may say "it was founded by "more moderate" people, but even if that was true, and they weren't in the main religiously intolerant homophobic xenophobes then, it was hijacked, it IS high jacked and IS now a Koch Bros funded astro-turf movement.

As for a record in Taxachusetts, Willard never makes reference to it or his only worthwhile accomplishment while there: Romneycare..A whole convention and not one syllable on his Governorship from him or anybody.. Of course not a word on Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, ....
As for "being successful in business as automatically meaning he can't or won't be mindful of people who work for a living."
din't he already say "I like firing people"

Tazio

12th September 2012, 01:15

Man of the people!! :s tareup: :love: :rotflmao:

Pizza shop owner greets Obama with bear hug - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9QXfRKbjXU)

Tazio

12th September 2012, 15:14

If Romney loses Ohio, Obama wins big | Power Players - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/power-players-abc-news/romney-loses-ohio-obama-wins-big-111350109.html)

Gregor-y

12th September 2012, 15:22

Typical attitude of those on the left. You apology is not accepted and you should be ashamed of yourself.

Don't worry. I won't. You have brought shame to yourself by you cowardly, lies and disingenuous apology.

I'll quote these in case you change your posts.

anthonyvop

12th September 2012, 15:28

I'll quote you in case you change your post.

Don't worry. I won't. You have brought shame to yourself by you cowardly, lies and disingenuous apology.

anthonyvop

12th September 2012, 15:31

The Republican right also includes the Tea Party which is bordering on lunacy

You are right. Free Markets, Fiscal Responsibility and Constitutionally Limited Government is the stuff of madness.

Please note the sarcasm.

Gregor-y

12th September 2012, 15:39

Oddly enough one of the ads popping up on this thread is for Atlas Shrugged II. Even John Travolta knew better than to pursue Battlefield Earth any farther.

Politically, Rmoney's given up on Michigan and Pennsylvania (Mainly because Pittsburgh and Philadelphia outweigh the backwoods area in between) and falling behind in Ohio, which has already been identified as critical. I do hope Howard Dean's 50 state strategy is still being used since I hate to see divisions being played up in the country.

janvanvurpa

12th September 2012, 15:51

Originally Posted by anthonyvop http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/154767-2012-presidential-race-post1064310.html#post1064310)

Typical attitude of those on the left. You apology is not accepted and you should be ashamed of yourself.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by anthonyvop

Don't worry. I won't. You have brought shame to yourself by you cowardly, lies and disingenuous apology.

I'll quote these in case you change your posts.

Gee, gregori, that first quote sure looks like an off topic personal attack, and the second one is pretty personal and off topic and
looks like harrassment..

Do you remember Pino write like last week was it:
Recently we saw this:

pino (http://www.motorsportforums.com/members/pino-73487/) http://www.motorsportforums.com/images/statusicon/user-online.png Moderator Join Date Jan 2002LocationSanremo ItalyPosts23,907
2
Just a note to everyone :

From now on all off-topic or personal comments will be punished with a month ban !

See you in a month..if of course Pino applies his warnings fairly.

Are you just going to ignore that so we can discuss the elections?

I think you should ask Pino in the sense of responsibility---its sorta appropriate to the "conservitude attitude" that they should be punished severely for their sins.

I know this is Presidential Elections but I keep digging for what's up in the Congress, particularly the House....

But right now seems we have to think of the pres especially in light of upcoming Supreme Court appointments.

The mind shudders to think of what sort of kooks and weird-Os a kook and weird-o like Willard could dream up..

Starter

12th September 2012, 16:05

Gregor-y

12th September 2012, 16:33

Gee, gregori, that first quote sure looks like an off topic personal attack, and the second one is pretty personal and off topic and
looks like harrassment.
No worries. I did make a pretty big (and inaccurate) statement.

Gee, hope all those people who live in places like Harrisburg, State College, Erie, Allentown, Scranton, etc. don't read that and finally realize what dopes they are. :rolleyes:
I grew up in Pittsburgh and spent plenty of time in the hinterlands chasing trains and hiking abandoned lines with my Dad through the 80s and early 90s. I feel pretty comfortable with my assessment, though yes, there are a few of the built up areas that are sensible, though not all of the ones you listed are And you forgot Johnstown and Altoona. Other than the massive year-round humidity and regularly overcast skies it's a great state for anyone interested in history and geology. I'm working myself up to bike at least the Allegheny Passage (http://www.atatrail.org/) from Pittsburgh to Cumberland on the abandoned Western Maryland next spring, maybe also the C&O canal towpath (http://www.bikecando.com/_bikecando/default.aspx) all the way to Washington. I'm following a blog of two people that just started the trip from Erie and am curious what their path to Pittsburgh is.

Gregor-y

12th September 2012, 18:14

You forgot Johnstown and Altoona. I grew up in Pittsburgh and spent plenty of time chasing trains and hiking roadbeds all over the state in the 80s with my dad so I feel pretty comfortable with my statement, though there are a few exceptions in some built up areas. Not Scranton, though.

DanicaFan

13th September 2012, 05:11

Voting for Obama this November reminds me of the saying....

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...

Roamy

13th September 2012, 06:59

janvanvurpa

13th September 2012, 07:55

What is really scary is to think the people of this country would in fact re-elect Obama. Well if they do the republican party as we know it today will be gone and maybe that would not be a bad thing if we can't somehow get a "Middle" party going.

Forget middle as it now stands, how about a party that represents, wage earners, not corporations and big finance..

And to borrow a line from Shakespeare "First, let's kill all the lobbyists"

Roamy

13th September 2012, 12:29

Forget middle as it now stands, how about a party that represents, wage earners, not corporations and big finance..

And to borrow a line from Shakespeare "First, let's kill all the lobbyists"

Actually to me that would be a Middle Party. And yes to the lobbyists - should I use my 10mm or 460 mag?
BTW do you include small business in the wage earner category?

Starter

13th September 2012, 13:16

If you take the (expressed) social values of the Democrats and the (expressed) economic values of the Republicans, you'd have a really good start.

janvanvurpa

13th September 2012, 16:20

Actually to me that would be a Middle Party. And yes to the lobbyists - should I use my 10mm or 460 mag?
BTW do you include small business in the wage earner category?

Depends on the small business definition. I'm a one man business. I buy the steel and aluminum and springs and inserts and shocks, I pick up and chop up the steel and aluminum, sometimes i run the parts, sometimes Bob---the guy who owns all the machines, runs my parts while I run some of his, I drop the stuff off to get anodized and cad plated, I assemble, pack address, and ship and do the correspondence.. Yesterday from 0720 to 0130---late cause I had billing to do.
That's the making of race car (rally car) suspension. Then there's the motor parts, motor builds, and specials, like a run of 10 then 25 light steel flywheels for turbo rwd Volvos.

Its a small "business" or "sole proprietorship" but its mostly just dumb work---since the Big Boys of wall Street wrecked the economy its not made much more than break even plus a couple of thou after a full year, but gotta do it or you disappear.

That is a legit question, I know farmers may be "small" business and -if htere's any left---turn over 1.2 million for a profit of 15-20k...

In that case i's say, yeah he's in the same boat as me, and ordinary wage earners...

But its quite a stretch to imagine that the worries are the same for somebody teetering along on 30k-40k a year and somebody
"barely surviving" at 185k...

gloomyDAY

16th September 2012, 17:42

Voting for Obama this November reminds me of the saying....

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

DanicaFan

16th September 2012, 17:57

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing... Government controls everything.

First off, the Government is for the people, here to protect its people, not run the people's everyday life.

Im not a big Romney fan either but he is definitely the better choice and my opinion, the only choice we have. We CANNOT afford 4 more years of Obama. My favorite candidate we had was Herman Cain, for those of you wondering.

But these recent attacks on US Embassies, lack of Israel support and Iran situation has really got me upset.

Mr. President....Attacking US Embassies is an act of war and you are doing nothing to defend them or America. He wont meet with the Israel Prime Minister but invites the Egypt Muslim Brotherhood leader over here ? Why, I have no understanding of that. He apologizes to Islamic countries about our beliefs in Islam but doesnt defend us when they attack our country's beliefs and way of life. Disgusting.

And in America, we all know his failures here..

Record National Debt over 16 trillion dollars. He has increased the National Debt more than all other presidents combined!
Unemployment higher than ever
Oil Prices high
Ruining the healthcare system
Lack of Military Support
Not defending our borders
Not enforcing illegal immigration but insteads caters to them, lets them stay here, work, get driver's licenses, etc...
Our Nation's credit rating has dropped to AA-

I could go on and on but I wont. America will fall if he stays in office another 4 years. I am a veteran and to see this country being destroyed by him is very upsetting and depressing.

BDunnell

16th September 2012, 18:17

It would be a mistake to characterize all people who have positions in the above two groups as either stupid or crazy. While it's true that some of the more rabid and extreme have taken front page (blame the media for overly sensationalizing), many are just nice people who have certain core beliefs, particularly on religious matters. I don't agree with them on many things, but I respect their positions.

Do you extend the same 'respect' to, say, the views of al Qaida? Where does this 'respect' for views with which you disagree end? I have no respect at all for homophobes, anti-abortionists, or so forth. Why should I, when I consider their views not only to be wrong but also damaging?

BDunnell

16th September 2012, 18:18

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing...

With that statement, you disqualify yourself from making any political comment, in my opinion. Have you ever encountered an actual socialist or Communist?

Mark

16th September 2012, 18:20

Socialism is very very different from communism. Most European countries are socialist to some degree. That doesn't make them communist. Not even close.

BDunnell

16th September 2012, 18:22

Socialism is very very different from communism. Most European countries are socialist to some degree. That doesn't make them communist. Not even close.

To add to that, many prominent socialist politicians in the post-war years, for example in the first post-war Labour government in Britain, were amongst the most vehement anti-Communists one could have encountered. I suspect this is rather too subtle a distinction for some to grasp.

race aficionado

16th September 2012, 18:47

With that statement, you disqualify yourself from making any political comment, in my opinion. Have you ever encountered an actual socialist or Communist?

As Mark said, there is a big difference betwee the two.

Let's educate ourselves correctly when throwing out terms like socialism and communism or any "ism" for that matter.

Tazio

16th September 2012, 18:54

Just a quick thought slightly OT. The Government (and all of it's recourses) of The United States of America has Identified the three hate-mongers that made the video that started all the latest protests over what has to be an extremely offensive video to Muslims in Africa and the Mid-East (has anybody seen it?) The apparent ring leader is an Egyptian ex-patriot who is also a Coptic Christian that hates the fact that his ex-country is for the most part Muslim. He is in custody. The other two are in hiding, with friends saying they have received credible death threats. :dozey:
I was asking my sister who is a defense attorney that only handles capitol felonies, and I'm guessing she is very good at what she does, because she has ongoing concerns that because of pleas and not guilty verdicts she has taken measures to protect herself from dissatisfied "alleged victims", and even the police. I asked her if these three will be able to at least be tried for involuntary manslaughter. She said that it is not the proper course of action. A little to my surprise she said they will more likely be tried for crimes against “The State” in Federal Court, and then much to my surprise she added: "that way they can send them to Gitmo"!!!!!! Just sayin'

Jag_Warrior

16th September 2012, 19:49

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing...

You know that I don't like your favorite driver. But as I've said, I've always thought that you were a nice guy and a good racing fan, Chad. So I'm not saying any of this to insult or offend you. Don't take it that way. But if you don't know that communism and socialism are NOT pretty much the same thing, then you really don't know what you're talking about.

Here's what it comes down to: I support your right to believe anything you want. I support your right to support any candidate that you choose. But before you can define someone as something, it's quite necessary for you to at least know the definition. M'kay? :)

janvanvurpa

16th September 2012, 20:21

With that statement, you disqualify yourself from making any political comment, in my opinion. Have you ever encountered an actual socialist or Communist?

You must recall that in this country since maybe 1946 the word "Communist" is just a 'dirty word' people spit out when they want to insult... I recall in 1st Grade, 1958, I'm what? 6 years old, maybe 7 and in a fight rolling around in the dirt and I pin the guy down and hold his arms so he can't swing...kid's face is bright red and he's so angry ----and most kids at the point even in Texas didn't swear---yet----he can barely speak but he managed to finaly spit out "You---You---- You dirty communist!"

Try and keep in the forefront of your consciousness t polls done many times in the 50s and 60s and 70s where pollsters would show either the Preamble to our Constitution, or the beginning of our Declaration of Independence, to people all over the country and asked people to sign it as a petition...
A preponderance of respondents would refuse and hurl "Communist" and "socialist" at the pollsters..

It was a cliche of the times.

Now we see with most of the Americans who have posted here that there is no difference between Communists, Socialists and Nazis.. "they're all the same".

How is dialog possible with such people?

Jag_Warrior

16th September 2012, 20:33

As Mark said, there is a big difference between the two.

Let's educate ourselves correctly when throwing out terms like socialism and communism or any "ism" for that matter.

Yes, we definitely should. I blame it on the failure of the American educational system. Not only are our younger people unable to perform at a global level in math and science, we also do a very bad job teaching them civics and government. People in the U.S., especially those of certain political persuasions, have a tendency to throw around rather nonsensical terms based solely on engrained fears that they have.

As far as Obama, I know for a fact that he is a Reptilian Moon Jew. And if he gets another term, he'll build camps and lock all of us away so that his Reptilian Moon Jew comrades can then come and eat us. We will be assimilated! And annihilated. And eviscerated! It's true! Tell your friends! Stranger Danger! Stranger Danger! :eek:

gloomyDAY

16th September 2012, 20:35

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing... :laugh: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the result of our underfunded education.

Mr. President....Attacking US Embassies is an act of war and you are doing nothing to defend them or America.You're lying. Obama has sent more Marines to embassies in the Middle East and routed destroyers near Libya to protect our interests.

And in America, we all know his failures here...Here we go...

1. Record National Debt over 16 trillion dollars. He has increased the National Debt more than all other presidents combined!
2. Unemployment higher than ever
3. Oil Prices high
4. Ruining the healthcare system
5. Lack of Military Support
6. Not defending our borders
7. Not enforcing illegal immigration but insteads caters to them, lets them stay here, work, get driver's licenses, etc...
8. Our Nation's credit rating has dropped to AA-1. Obama inherited two wars and a financial meltdown. War is expensive and if you can't foot the bill, then don't pick a fight.

2. Ever? Really?! I'm glad those Depression Era kids aren't reading that little low-light of yours. If it wasn't for the American Reinvesting and Recovery Act, then millions more would be unemployed, unable to pay their mortgages, and feed their kids.

3. No President can take control over this.

4. Ruining? Depends on who you ask. There are plenty of 20-something kids fresh out of college who are thanking Obama for the passage of his healthcare reforms since they can't get a job (due to greedy companies piling money and not hiring), and have zero benefits. Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act enabled these kids to actually have a fighting chance to be part of their parent's health care until 26 and not get kicked out by insurance companies due to a pre-existing condition.

5. I'm not sure what you mean. Hauling America troops out of Iraq? Yeah, thanks. Enough of that quagmire.

6. Uh oh. Here come those invading Canadians.

7. Well, America has a hypocrisy about this that I still don't understand. America needs workers and at the same time wants to kick those workers out its territory. I'm with you on kicking illegal immigrants out of America, but not for the same reasons. I want illegal immigrants to be kicked out so Americans can happily go pick their own crops, clean up their own trash, and make their own food. Think prices are high now? It's nothing compared to how it's going to be when American demand more than minimum wage to do mundane jobs and benefits.

8. You're blaming Obama for this? Laff!

I could go on and on but I wont. America will fall if he stays in office another 4 years. I am a veteran and to see this country being destroyed by him is very upsetting and depressing.

gloomyDAY

16th September 2012, 20:36

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing... :laugh: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the result of our underfunded public education system.

Mr. President....Attacking US Embassies is an act of war and you are doing nothing to defend them or America.You're lying. Obama has sent more Marines to embassies in the Middle East and routed destroyers near Libya to protect our interests.

And in America, we all know his failures here...Here we go...

1. Record National Debt over 16 trillion dollars. He has increased the National Debt more than all other presidents combined!
2. Unemployment higher than ever
3. Oil Prices high
4. Ruining the healthcare system
5. Lack of Military Support
6. Not defending our borders
7. Not enforcing illegal immigration but insteads caters to them, lets them stay here, work, get driver's licenses, etc...
8. Our Nation's credit rating has dropped to AA-1. Obama inherited two wars and a financial meltdown. War is expensive and if you can't foot the bill, then don't pick a fight.

2. Ever? Really?! I'm glad those Depression Era kids aren't reading that little low-light of yours. If it wasn't for the American Reinvesting and Recovery Act, then millions more would be unemployed, unable to pay their mortgages, and feed their kids.

3. No President can take control over this.

4. Ruining? Depends on who you ask. There are plenty of 20-something kids fresh out of college who are thanking Obama for the passage of his healthcare reforms since they can't get a job (due to greedy companies piling money and not hiring), and have zero benefits. Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act enabled these kids to actually have a fighting chance to be part of their parent's health care until 26 and not get kicked out by insurance companies due to a pre-existing condition.

5. I'm not sure what you mean. Hauling American troops out of Iraq? Yeah, thanks. Enough of that quagmire.

6. Uh oh. Here come those invading Canadians.

7. Well, America has a hypocrisy about this that I still don't understand. America needs workers and at the same time wants to kick those workers out its territory. I'm with you on kicking illegal immigrants out of America, but not for the same reasons. I want illegal immigrants to be kicked out so Americans can happily go pick their own crops, clean up their own trash, and make their own food. Think prices are high now? It's nothing compared to how it's going to be when Americans demand more than minimum wage and benefits to do a mundane job.

8. You're blaming Obama for this? He had nothing to do with the lowering of America's credit rating.

Gregor-y

16th September 2012, 22:45

Now we see with most of the Americans who have posted here that there is no difference between Communists, Socialists and Nazis.. "they're all the same".

Heh, in the last 40 years I think there's been a big effort to get 'liberals' in there, because liberty is an opposition to the status quo when it comes to equal rights. In the last ten 'progressive' has been added since conservatism by it's nature is opposed to any kind of change, even when it's beneficial.

Ohio's slipping away as is Virginia. Rmoney's not looking so hot to anyone but the nuts who themselves don't really like him, since they put Mormons in the same boat the Iranian government puts anyone associated with the Baha'i.

janvanvurpa

16th September 2012, 23:21

:laugh: Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the result of our underfunded public education system.

You're lying. Obama has sent more Marines to embassies in the Middle East and routed destroyers near Libya to protect our interests.

Here we go...

1. Obama inherited two wars and a financial meltdown. War is expensive and if you can't foot the bill, then don't pick a fight.

2. Ever? Really?! I'm glad those Depression Era kids aren't reading that little low-light of yours. If it wasn't for the American Reinvesting and Recovery Act, then millions more would be unemployed, unable to pay their mortgages, and feed their kids.

3. No President can take control over this.

4. Ruining? Depends on who you ask. There are plenty of 20-something kids fresh out of college who are thanking Obama for the passage of his healthcare reforms since they can't get a job (due to greedy companies piling money and not hiring), and have zero benefits. Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act enabled these kids to actually have a fighting chance to be part of their parent's health care until 26 and not get kicked out by insurance companies due to a pre-existing condition.

5. I'm not sure what you mean. Hauling American troops out of Iraq? Yeah, thanks. Enough of that quagmire.

6. Uh oh. Here come those invading Canadians.

7. Well, America has a hypocrisy about this that I still don't understand. America needs workers and at the same time wants to kick those workers out its territory. I'm with you on kicking illegal immigrants out of America, but not for the same reasons. I want illegal immigrants to be kicked out so Americans can happily go pick their own crops, clean up their own trash, and make their own food. Think prices are high now? It's nothing compared to how it's going to be when Americans demand more than minimum wage and benefits to do a mundane job.

8. You're blaming Obama for this? He had nothing to do with the lowering of America's credit rating.

Thank you. Point by point every single thing was not just false but ridiculous...and easily disproved
Obama has his failings and one is thinking just because he is so much smarter than the "other side' that he could use logic and reasoning and negotiate with them like all reasonable people do with other reasonable people...
Huge mistake and one based on either ego in thinking he could convince them or something else.

janvanvurpa

16th September 2012, 23:31

Heh, in the last 40 years I think there's been a big effort to get 'liberals' in there, because liberty is an opposition to the status quo when it comes to equal rights. In the last ten 'progressive' has been added since conservatism by it's nature is opposed to any kind of change, even when it's beneficial.

Ohio's slipping away as is Virginia. Rmoney's not looking so hot to anyone but the nuts who themselves don't really like him, since they put Mormons in the same boat the Iranian government puts anyone associated with the Baha'i.

Yep. But still the pivot is Florida. Obama may do OK in Florida but there's an awful lot of the place that's more like "Flar-duh" and they have a long record of voter suppression and ballot tampering with evident impunity. Violating the law seems to be a long habit there.

ShiftingGears

17th September 2012, 00:27

1. Obama inherited two wars and a financial meltdown. War is expensive and if you can't foot the bill, then don't pick a fight.

Exactly.

I would also like to add that there would be much less animosity between Western countries (namely, the US) and the Middle East if there wasn't any meddling in foreign territories. This extends to aid to Israel - Israel are more than capable of defending themselves from any perceived threat without the USA becoming involved.

All this simply does is fuel extremism and give hardline Islamic extremists ammunition to indoctrinate their children with. Speaking of indoctrinated, explaining any dislike of the US by foreign countries with "they hate our freedoms" as an open-and-shut case is a moronic oversimplification and is one of the reasons why people continue to vote for candidates with bellicose foreign policies, and hence a reason why these conflicts keep happening.

Roamy

17th September 2012, 01:27

foreign aid is expensive - get rid of it !!!

janvanvurpa

17th September 2012, 03:31

foreign aid is expensive - get rid of it !!!

Furrin aid, like all aid, sometimes, when carefully done, is a good investment in peace. We did it once...and where we did and encouraged real democracy, there has been peace for 67 years.
For the first time in recorded history..

But the way we normally do it, where the aid is structured implicitly to benefit some huge US corporation, and the "host country" possibly not even seeing a penny of cash*, forget it.

Where ever you stand, its worth a read --a quick read---of the details of how this works as direct transfers to Corporations with "connections" have a look at "Confessions of an Economic Hitman"..

. sure its broad and some have picked at it, but compare what he says is the mechanism of gaining control with how things we've all seen again and again have gone everywhere that gets ensnared by foreign aid---be it US, or French of whatever..Easy "aid" then debt burden followed by IMF and the World Bank, debt "restructuring and wide open borders for foreign investments and monopolies.

Jag_Warrior

17th September 2012, 04:20

Yep. But still the pivot is Florida. Obama may do OK in Florida but there's an awful lot of the place that's more like "Flar-duh" and they have a long record of voter suppression and ballot tampering with evident impunity. Violating the law seems to be a long habit there.

I read through some electoral college scenarios last weekend (the national polls mean virtually nothing at this point). And from that, I think you're right: Florida is the most pivotal state. It seems like Romney has to win Florida or he's basically toast. If Obama wins Florida, and I think one or two of the other battle ground states, he's pretty much got it locked up. A guy by the name of Virgil Goode got on the ballot in VA very recently. I expect for him to take away at least some small slice of the extreme right wing vote here. Romney really needs those votes. He really needs VA. If Goode screws that up for him, and Ohio keeps drifting away... Mitt might as well tell the fat lady to get tuned up.

What I find incredibly amusing is the number of generic conservatives and Obama haters on various forums who are claiming that this election is going to be a Romney landslide. I think it's certainly possible that Romney can win. But I've seen absolutely no evidence or polling data to suggest that either one of them is going to win in a landslide. But I forget, these predictions seem to usually come from people for whom mathematics is not their strongest card. :dozey:

Rollo

17th September 2012, 05:37

I am a veteran and to see this country being destroyed by him is very upsetting and depressing.

So as an ex-government employee in by definition a monopolist a socialist organisation, you're calling for (as you see it) a Socialist/Communist to go.

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing...

Do you or are you currently claiming your Socialist/Communist government pension as a result of being an ex-government employee in a socialist organisation?

gloomyDAY

17th September 2012, 06:39

janvanvurpa

17th September 2012, 06:51

Romney wants the government to know whether or not you're watching porn.

“If I am President, I will work to make sure that every computer sold into the home has an easy to engage pornography filter so that every parent can protect their child from unwanted filth.” (http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/gop1007/romney102007sp.html)

No thanks! I'll keep my porn, thank you. I don't need Mr. Mormon trying to get rid of my porn because his twisted religion doesn't find it morally up to par. I'm not even sure why Romney is trying to tout the moral high ground through his religion. Joseph Smith was a polygamist (3-way anyone?) and was incarcerated for fraud.

If Romney gets elected, then he'll go after the porn industry. He will then go after the computer manufacturers to place spyware on your personal computer (http://techcrunch.com/2012/07/24/could-romney-really-ban-porn/) and use some vague terrorism law to do so. This is real! You don't believe me? Then I bet you don't recall what Alberto Gonzalez did to tear The Constitution to bits with the unPATRIOTic Act. No, I'm not voting for Romney.

Wait..Unwanted filth?? That implies that there is either no need for parents to protect their child from wanted filth...
I just did a set of brake pads on my neighbors new minivan cause he has a second kid coming in less than a month, and my hands were filthy..I didn't like it at all, it was unwanted.. I protect my girls from this unwanted filth by washing my hands using Boraxo and Scotch Brite...

But my oldest who is 7 1/2 now seems to want to work on cars and i taught her young that with soap and water a lotta filth is just a temporary thing..
But is he wanting to work on cars "wanted filth"?

gloomyDAY

17th September 2012, 07:08

Wait..Unwanted filth?? That implies that there is either no need for parents to protect their child from wanted filth...
I just did a set of brake pads on my neighbors new minivan cause he has a second kid coming in less than a month, and my hands were filthy..I didn't like it at all, it was unwanted.. I protect my girls from this unwanted filth by washing my hands using Boraxo and Scotch Brite...

But my oldest who is 7 1/2 now seems to want to work on cars and i taught her young that with soap and water a lotta filth is just a temporary thing..
But is he wanting to work on cars "wanted filth"?Yeah, I don't think Romney is the type to get his hands dirty. He did his mission in France, so I guess the biggest hardship he had in his life was going from his chateau to the corner market for a baguette. Oh, yeah! I forgot to mention that he's also a draft dodger. I don't think Romney wanted to get his hair dirty in Vietnam, so he decided to hit the slopes of Chamonix.

As you can see in this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqMUG1uNK_Y), there is a gay veteran from the Vietnam War who happens to be the same age as Romney. Will Mr. Mormon decides to tell this veteran that his right should be crapped on because of his sexual orientation. I guess being gay really doesn't make you a coward. This gay veteran should have gone on that trip to France with Romney instead and taught him a few bedroom tricks too! Ann would have been pleased.

Gregor-y

17th September 2012, 13:35

Tazio

17th September 2012, 16:13

To add to that, many prominent socialist politicians in the post-war years, for example in the first post-war Labour government in Britain, were amongst the most vehement anti-Communists one could have encountered. I suspect this is rather too subtle a distinction for some to grasp. As this applies to citizens of The United States of America, and has been pointed out by the semi-great American Satirist John Vanlandingham, since 1946 Communism is a filthy Un-American word. I used to make a point as a contrast to what communism actually means by asking my countrymen that bandy that term about; "Do you now have a roommate? Has your "Home" ever been a house or apartment that you share the expenses with with someone whose only relationship to you is the mutual benefit of sharing the expense of that dwelling? When the response is in the affirmative I would ejaculate:
"You do know that that makes you a communalist". After a period of consternation on that persons behalf I would "try" to explain the subtleties of the distance between the two. Like the semi-great American Satirist I too have a one man operation, a sole proprietorship in the fenestration discipline. In plain (American) English that means my trade is installing windows, replacement glass, window screens, waterproofing of window openings, and a variety of other products like shutters, and "Alarm Screens", and almost anything that applies to windows and glass. Since this company has not turned a significant profit in 3 years I have taken a bearish stance instead of chasing bad money with good. Possibly this is one reason why the semi-great American Satirist who has shown his hand and is in fact two years older than me ;) , sounds semi-desperate when discussing his advocation is that I have other streams of income, all legal. Having an offspring that had a horrible accident (spinal injury) at the age of 32 has given me a special perspective on what actually is valuable in life. For me at the very top is having a sense of humor, and BP that is less than stage one hypertension.

Full Color Football: The History of the American Football League - 5 of 15 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=85Fcdezn1BI)

DanicaFan

17th September 2012, 18:30

DanicaFan

17th September 2012, 18:40

Obamunism... Work Hard, Other People Need YOUR Money.

DanicaFan

17th September 2012, 18:55

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/AntiObamaposterVII.jpg

Mark

17th September 2012, 19:19

I invoke Godwins Law.

BDunnell

17th September 2012, 19:49

OBAMA has already broke us. Another 4 years of him and we will be no better than several third world countries. Nobody in their right mind should want to see anymore war but trying to pacify them will not work. They hate our way of life and will not stop until they change it. We had better open our eyes now! Romney would not be my first choice but he is the BEST choice! Obama's plan is to turn us into a country where the people rely on government for everything. It is what he studied, how he was taught and what he believes. I will never turn my back on my country for I love her so much but if Obama was to walk past me I would turn my back to him.

Have you read any of the other posts in this thread? You may, if you approach them with an open mind, learn from them.

donKey jote

17th September 2012, 20:01

:crazy: :dozey:

Captain VXR

17th September 2012, 20:31

OBAMA has already broke us. Another 4 years of him and we will be no better than several third world countries. Nobody in their right mind should want to see anymore war but trying to pacify them will not work. They hate our way of life and will not stop until they change it. We had better open our eyes now! Romney would not be my first choice but he is the BEST choice! Obama's plan is to turn us into a country where the people rely on government for everything. It is what he studied, how he was taught and what he believes. I will never turn my back on my country for I love her so much but if Obama was to walk past me I would turn my back to him.

Explain how Romney would be any good? Tax cuts for the rich? Their extra money won't end up going straight into offshore tax havens? I didn't realise that Americans relied on the government for oxygen, the sun's light etc etc. And those poor people, they don't deserve healthcare do they? It's their fault that they're lazy and feckless and unable to get a good job?

Captain VXR

17th September 2012, 20:51

Jag_Warrior

17th September 2012, 21:03

Perhaps a return to sanity and reason is in order, as opposed to the "wing nuttery" of those who have a limited understanding of economics and political philosophy.

Here's something I found which is (IMO) quite interesting - especially in light of the claims that Obamaism is all about communism/socialism/fascism/Nazism... :rolleyes: I'm not on the Obama bandwagon, nor am I his biggest fan. But the ridiculousness of the claims by some of his critics has made me not want to see people of that ilk getting (back) in power. What has happened to intelligence in the conservative movement in America? What has happened to people like the late Jack Kemp? Have the paranoid wing nuts and ill informed flakes truly chased them away, by calling them RINOs for not agreeing with every single iota of their right wing social radicalism???

Doesn't it seem rather odd that if Obama is indeed the greatest expression of communism, socialism, and whatever other nonsensical, self-created ism that people want to come up with, that more sectors in the greatest expression of free market capitalism (the equity market) would apparently do better under an Obama administration than under a Romney administration? Yeah, weird. :confused: But what do those 1%'ers know about stocks anyway?

What Stock Market Is Saying About November Elections (http://www.cnbc.com/id/49062218)

Stock sectors that could do well if Democrats win in November have been outpacing those that might be in favor if Republicans get control of the White House and Senate, according to an index created by LPL Financial.

Democrats were assigned health care facilities; food and staples retailing; gas utilities; health care services; life sciences tools and services; construction materials; homebuilding and construction and farm machinery.

Republican sectors are coal and consumable fuels; diversified financial services; oil and gas exploration; oil and gas drilling; managed care; electric utilities; specialty retail, and telecommunications services.

At the current rate, someone like this will be the GOP candidate for President in 2016. God help us all!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1KvgtEnABY

Rollo

17th September 2012, 21:42

I read through some electoral college scenarios last weekend (the national polls mean virtually nothing at this point). And from that, I think you're right: Florida is the most pivotal state. It seems like Romney has to win Florida or he's basically toast. If Obama wins Florida, and I think one or two of the other battle ground states, he's pretty much got it locked up. A guy by the name of Virgil Goode got on the ballot in VA very recently. I expect for him to take away at least some small slice of the extreme right wing vote here. Romney really needs those votes. He really needs VA. If Goode screws that up for him, and Ohio keeps drifting away... Mitt might as well tell the fat lady to get tuned up.

What I find incredibly amusing is the number of generic conservatives and Obama haters on various forums who are claiming that this election is going to be a Romney landslide. I think it's certainly possible that Romney can win. But I've seen absolutely no evidence or polling data to suggest that either one of them is going to win in a landslide. But I forget, these predictions seem to usually come from people for whom mathematics is not their strongest card. :dozey:

In the opening post of this before it got out of hand, I had Romney winning by only 8 votes in the electoral college. And that assumed based on pre-polling data that or the 50% states in the Union, all would vote identically to they way they did in 2008 with only a very small percentage difference.

Under all scenarios, Florida basically has to switch. It carries 29 votes which is 2 up from 2008 and Texas also picks up an extra 4. Apart from Louisiana which lost population due to the after effects of Katrina, all the other Electoral College vote changes have been in the north eastern part of the country.

In January during the primaries, I predicted that it'd Romney-Rubio on the Republican ticket. Rubio would have been a good thing to put on the ticket because he's got a fresh face and tactically having the Senator from Florida would have been useful in flipping Florida back to red.

The last poll survey which I read had Ohio at Obama 57-Romney 43. 14 points is a lot to shift.

janvanvurpa

17th September 2012, 21:54

Plus Paul Ryan is a serial liar:
6 Worst Lies In Paul Ryan's Speech | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/30/772921/6-worst-lies-in-paul-ryans-speech/?mobile=nc)
Paul Ryan caught lying over unemployment figures, has no defense - Detroit liberal | Examiner.com (http://www.examiner.com/article/paul-ryan-caught-lying-over-unemployment-figures-has-no-defense)

Romney is only a fan of limited government when it comes to taxing the rich and helping the poor. If you want a fan of both limited government and freedom, vote Johnson.

You really think people like "Iwaanabedanica" will click your link to see?
You have to place everything in front of their eyes, then there can be no possible excuse they didn't see it--except refusal or some tragic accident that left them maimed and with cranial-rectal occlusions.
Cut and paste:
6 Worst Lies In Paul Ryan’s Speech (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/30/772921/6-worst-lies-in-paul-ryans-speech/) By Aviva Shen (http://thinkprogress.org/author/ashen/) on Aug 30, 2012 at 9:36 am
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/ryan-300x225.jpg Vice presidential candidate Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI) is taking flack on the morning news shows for his keynote address at the Republican National Convention Wednesday night. His speech was riddled with false claims, so much so that even Fox News wrote (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/08/30/paul-ryans-speech-in-three-words/), “To anyone paying the slightest bit of attention to facts, Ryan’s speech was an apparent attempt to set the world record for the greatest number of blatant lies and misrepresentations slipped into a single political speech.”
Here are the most glaring lies from his speech:
1. “A downgraded America.” Ryan blamed (http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/08/05/289867/boehners-folly-leads-to-sp-downgrade-of-us-debt/) the president for the nation’s credit downgrade in August 2011 after Republicans threatened to allow the government to default on its debt for the first time in history. But the ratings agency explicitly blamed (http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2011/08/05/289771/report-sp-to-downgrade-u-s-credit-will-cite-gop-refusal-to-raise-taxes/) “Republicans saying that they refuse to accept any tax increases as part of a larger deal.”
2. “More debt than any other president before him, and more than all the troubled governments of Europe combined.” Romney has made the almost identical claim, that Obama has amassed more debt “as almost all of the other presidents combined.” But their math doesn’t add up (http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/12/16/iowa-debate-fact-check/): when Obama took office, the national debt was $10.626 trillion. It has increased to slightly above $15 trillion.
3. Shuttered General Motors plant is “one more broken promise.” Ryan described a GM plant that closed down in his hometown, Janesville, Wisconsin, and blamed Obama for breaking his promise to keep the plant open when he visited during his campaign. But Obama never made that promise, and the plant shut down in December 2008 (http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120816/AUTO0103/208160480), before Obama even took office.
4. Obama “did exactly nothing” on Bowles-Simpson. Ryan said, “He created a bipartisan debt commission. They came back with an urgent report. He thanked them, sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing.” In fact, Ryan was instrumental in sabotaging the commission, leading the (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-08-13/ryan-opposed-debt-reduction-plan-romney-used-as-a-model) other House Republicans in voting against the plan.
5. “$716 billion, funneled out of Medicare by President Obama.” Ryan’s favorite lie is a deliberate distortion of Obamacare’s savings from eliminating inefficiencies. Furthermore, Ryan’s own plan for Medicare includes these savings. Romney has vowed to restore these cuts, which would render the trust fund insolvent (http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/08/22/725081/romneys-plan-to-restore-medicare-cuts-would-increase-seniors-premiums/) 8 years ahead of schedule.
6. “The greatest of all responsibilities is that of the strong to protect the weak.” Ryan closed the speech with an invocation of social responsibility, saying, “The truest measure of any society is how it treats those who cannot defend or care for themselves.” However, numerous clergy members have condemned (http://thinkprogress.org/election/2012/08/17/704971/wisconsin-catholic-group-prays-for-paul-ryan-to-reconnect-with-the-compassion-for-the-poor/) Ryan’s budget plan as “cruel,” and “an immoral disaster” because of its devastating cuts in social programs the poor and sick rely on. Meanwhile, Ryan would give (http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2012/03/20/448057/paul-ryan-claims-to-maintain-revenue-in-budget-that-gives-away-3-trillion-to-corporations-and-the-wealthy/) ultra-rich individuals and corporations $3 trillion in tax breaks.

OK?

janvanvurpa

17th September 2012, 21:55

Dead-enders from the old regime are fawkin with my confuser!

gloomyDAY

18th September 2012, 00:02

Bush has already broken us...Nobody in their right mind should want to see anymore war, but I'm not right of mind. They, terrorists, hate our way of life and will not stop until they change it, even if they have successfully done so (i.e. NSA giving kids full body pat down at the airport). We had better open our eyes now! Romney would mercilessly subjugate the American population with his religious doctrine, but he's still my first choice because my television says so! Obama's plan is to turn us into a country where the people rely on compassion from one another in order to see us through dire straits. It is what he studied at Harvard, how he was taught and what he believes. I would rather turn my back on my countrymen, and let them wallow in a mess they did not create but only inherited.I fixed a few things for you.

Obamunism... Work Hard, Other People Need YOUR Money.Ram-mesim: work like a slave and watch as your future burns to ashes.

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/AntiObamaposterVII.Nice meme, and it had grammatical and spelling errors as well! Love it. I love how you showcase your views through generic Facebook posts.

Proverbs 24:21-22
21 My son, fear thou the Lord and the king: and meddle not with them that are given to change:
22 For their calamity shall rise suddenly; and who knoweth the ruin of them both?

Good thing I'm an atheist. No need for me to bow down to some invisible deity. This is basically stating that you should accept the status quo and not question authority even when you're being driven to the ground. No, f'q your religion. Christianity intertwined with the GOP is the reason Congress can't compromise.

gloomyDAY

18th September 2012, 00:21

What saddens me about the GOP was that it had strong leaders like Barry Goldwater. What happened? People who were level-headed are non-existent in the GOP. Militant Christians are overrunning the party! No one is willing to compromise, therefore, we have a stagnant government and volatile government.

The hatred on both sides is palpable. Sometimes it feels in America as if we're a massive powder keg and the Presidential elections of 2012 are like a matchstick coming dangerously close to igniting the populace.

Rollo

18th September 2012, 00:25

Good thing I'm an atheist. No need for me to bow down to some invisible deity. This is basically stating that you should accept the status quo and not question authority even when you're being driven to the ground. No, f'q your religion. Christianity intertwined with the GOP is the reason Congress can't compromise.

I'm sorry but the GOP is hardly a representation of Christianity and certainly not a representation of Christ. The bible speaks far more about helping those in need and king's duties to be generous to their people than the GOP are prepared to admit.

As a Christian I would be deeply offendend to be represented by either the GOP or the Democrats and the fact that the Christian right is so easily manipulated suggests to me that there is a distinct lack of any critical thinking whatsoever.

I wonder what the Christian right would have to say about something like this with regards their support of the two major parties in US politics?
Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.

I completely understand your suspicions of Christianity and so-called "Christian politics"; especially given that it appears that so many people sing songs and leave their conscience at the door of a church on Sunday and merrily go about their own horrid business the rest of the week.

janvanvurpa

18th September 2012, 03:27

What saddens me about the GOP was that it had strong leaders like Barry Goldwater. What happened?
They had strong leaders, like Goldwater...who just happened to be borderline insane. Which side of the border it was is the only question.

People who were level-headed are non-existent in the GOP. Militant Christians are overrunning the party! No one is willing to compromise, therefore, we have a stagnant government and volatile government.

We as a people unbelievably lucky where we ended up, have always tended to think and talk in strong dichotomies. You see it everywhere (but its just part of the forest so being a tree in the forest it just jump out and smack you) Look how people talk of cars "Its WAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaAAAAAY bitchin " or "What a pile of junk" (hell not even a good rant like That car makes me want to vomit! Why its so gutless it only runs by somehow extracting power from other cars. It's styling reminds me of something I spewed and then flushed. I better get an icepick an stab me eyes out so I don't hafta see it!!! Arrrrrgh!) No just "It's junk") or wimmins "She's soooooooooooooooooooo hot" or "Bitch".

This being a motorsport forum, don't know what branch you look in on but for me its rally just gravel rally. 1st and 2nd after 3 hours maybe separated by a few seconds or an actual 0.003% and some guys "he's soooooooooooo fast" and the other "He's washed up, hang up the helmet," and the key one, you must have seen it ---always written by some Jabba-the-hut like gnome "second place is the first LOSER". <-------That's the problem....for idiots with no sense of anything, their own words and the American obsession on "winning" means you win or you don't take part. Any uncertainty---don't take part..

In my lifetime, just 60 years, the idea of compromise has become a code word for weakness, especially among the weak, fearful and protected. And of course, weak of mind.

Didya read the link to the "Paranoid Style of American Politics"? That was prompted by somebody you brought up: Goldwater.
All these hater-loon-religious whackoids are his descendants, but they've always been around.

The hatred on both sides is palpable. Sometimes it feels in America as if we're a massive powder keg and the Presidential elections of 2012 are like a matchstick coming dangerously close to igniting the populace.

Well the Repug base are mostly evangelical ravers, and for them it fufills they death fantasies about "End Times" and Armageddon--when they think they will waddle out and blaze away killing all of us who aren't exactly like them..

They'll still be old and fat and impotent tho.... :uhoh:

DanicaFan

18th September 2012, 07:15

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/bushobama-1.jpg

Although now, our credit rating is AA-, the National deficit is over 16 Trillion.

Malbec

18th September 2012, 07:41

Although now, our credit rating is AA-, the National deficit is over 16 Trillion.

I know you don't like to look too deeply into things but did you read the credit downgrading report? You realise that it was Republican opposition to anything proposed by Obama that lead to the credit rating agencies downgrading their rating? It wasn't based on the strength of the US economy but an indictment of BOTH political parties to reach compromise that could sabotage American growth.

Oh yeah and the national deficit, do you think that might have had something to do with the credit crunch? Lets see how the American economy would fare with $100s of billions of spending cuts overnight. Good luck!

As Mark Twain once said, better to look a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Rudy Tamasz

18th September 2012, 10:43

Politics is fun, innit? About as much fun as women's wrestling in dirt.

I believe people have delegated way too much power to politicians and let them ru[i]n the world. People are not gonna take that power back by voting one crook or another. People would be much better off just minding their own business, ignoring the travesty called elections and thus making politics and politicians redundant.

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 11:16

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/bushobama-1.jpg

Although now, our credit rating is AA-, the National deficit is over 16 Trillion.

Are you even able to see any of the other posts in this thread?

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 11:26

In my lifetime, just 60 years, the idea of compromise has become a code word for weakness, especially among the weak, fearful and protected. And of course, weak of mind.

One sees it on display too from those people who see everything in black and white, not shades of grey; those who believe in such absurd concepts as there being 'good' and 'evil' people with nothing in between, for example. I have said it many times on here, but I genuinely fear for the mental stability of some of them.

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 11:27

I believe people have delegated way too much power to politicians and let them ru[i]n the world. People are not gonna take that power back by voting one crook or another. People would be much better off just minding their own business, ignoring the travesty called elections and thus making politics and politicians redundant.

It would never happen, for human instinct, surely, always sees leaders of some sort develop.

Rudy Tamasz

18th September 2012, 12:16

Leaders do develop and their power is institutionalized in the government. It is up to the society to keep their leaders in check, though. With the moder days monstorus governments it is easier to fly to Mars than hold a politican accountable for his actions. That's the problem and elections are not the solution, sadly.

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 13:14

With the moder days monstorus governments it is easier to fly to Mars than hold a politican accountable for his actions.

Those in government, maybe, but I don't think things have changed in that respect with regard to the average elected politician on the backbenches. However, I'm drifting off topic here, as this is based on my experience (professional and personal) of British politics.

DanicaFan

18th September 2012, 13:41

Are you even able to see any of the other posts in this thread?

Which ones ? The ones that defend Obama ? Come on, I dont know how anyone could defend him. He is horrible, spineless, and all in it for himself. I dont want and have no respect for a "so-called" leader who refuses to meet with the Israel Prime Minister but has time to invite the Egypt Muslim Brotherhood leader over here, has time to go the Letterman Show, writes a form letter to a navy seal that dies but writes a personal letter to some rapper. Oh, I could go on.

Statistics and facts dont lie. He has failed and will continue to fail until this country has fallen.

DanicaFan

18th September 2012, 13:53

He gives billions of taxpayer money to foreign countries..Egypt, Libya, etc and these same countries attack us. He stops oil drilling in America but again spends billions of taxpayer money to Brazil, Columbia, Mexico so they can drill.

He wastes billions of dollars with green energy scams - Solyndra to only have them fail.

All these billions add up people...wake up!

Again, this man has increased the deficit more by himself than ALL presidents combined.

Tazio

18th September 2012, 13:56

Statistics and facts dont lie. He has failed and will continue to fail until this country has fallen. With sincere apologies to the intelligence to those who would and rightfully site Goodwin's law, that is what they said when FDR secretly invited the Third Reich to bomb Pearl Harbor :dozey:

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 14:49

Which ones ? The ones that defend Obama ?

I'd prefer to call them 'the ones rebutting, with facts, the ill-informed, paranoid rantings of someone who doesn't even know the difference between socialism and Communism'.

The fact that you made the latter comparison at all indicates that you are not someone whose views on matters political deserve to be taken all that seriously, I'm afraid.

Mark

18th September 2012, 14:51

Oh dear. I see it's a case of "You're with us or you're against us".

janvanvurpa

18th September 2012, 16:09

. Oh, I could go on.

Statistics and facts dont lie. .

Oh we know you could, but we could just read some neo-con hate sites or listen till Glenn Beck and hear the same exact ccollection of crap...
I keep saying it: YOU are the problem in the country.
YOU dispise everybody so much YOU refuse to even respond to them and YOU engage not in a dialog but rather screaming somebody elses' pre-digested poster or bumpersticker.

You and YOUR TYPE have destroyed the political process by your non-engagement.

janvanvurpa

18th September 2012, 16:12

With sincere apologies to the intelligence to those who would and rightfully site Goodwin's law, that is what they said when FDR secretly invited the Third Reich to bomb Pearl Harbor :dozey:

"His real name was Rosenfeldt, didya know that Goldstein? Huh? What do you thing of that Goldberg? Huh!?" Joseph Heller's father-in-law in "Good as Gold"

loowisham

18th September 2012, 17:24

This is to Danica fan. Sorry I do not know how to operate the devices available at this time to have your comments included.

It makes me feel so sad to see this country so polorized.

You have a some type of poster on the top of the page with what the issues were prior to President Obama taking and what they are now. You telegraph with that statement that you will vote for Romney. Your choice.
May I turn the issue and ask you to let me know what the state of the country was in prior to President George Bush taking over in 2000/1 after President Clinton.

donKey jote

18th September 2012, 17:29

The fact that you made the latter comparison at all indicates that you are not someone whose views on matters political deserve to be taken all that seriously, I'm afraid.

This, and -obviously to a lesser degree- preferring someone like Herman Cain to become President of the USA. :laugh:
Although I guess even Herman "bekiwekizeki" Cain would show less disrespect for 47% of the voting populace. :dozey:

Lousada

18th September 2012, 17:48

I'd prefer to call them 'the ones rebutting, with facts, the ill-informed, paranoid rantings of someone who doesn't even know the difference between socialism and Communism'.

The fact that you made the latter comparison at all indicates that you are not someone whose views on matters political deserve to be taken all that seriously, I'm afraid.

You can dismiss his opinions all you want, but his "uneducated" vote has the same value as your "educated" vote.

D-Type

18th September 2012, 18:19

janvanvurpa

18th September 2012, 18:48

I have to wonder what propaganda is fed to people in parts of the USA. Some of the crypto-fascist views expressed here frighten me. How can someone claim to be educated and not know the difference between Socialism and Communism?

It's not just fed, the metaphor would have to be "What drive some people to gorge themselves to bursting on this divisive, hate fueled and hate filled diet?"..

Although there is in all the English speaking countries there is some degree of a contempt for "eggheads" or "ack-a-demmicks", even that vitally important position: teachers... we see it in the crap spit out by knucklescrapers when they say "those can can do, those that can't teach".......(never realising the irony of their ability to read and repeat stupid dogma is thanks to a teacher teaching them---and ironically ignoring the huge role of "talking heads" TV commentators who neither instruct or do, but repeat crap constantly so they have some noise in their empty skulls) .
Pommieland has its Chavs, Oz its bogans, but nobody pays any attention to them cause they're idiots.

We have our "highschool education only, probably trade skills middle aged (or wannabe middleaged) males" who seriously defiantly say "I haven't read a gawddayum book since highschool"..

And you folks have no idea what a joke, what an insult, what a triumph of mindlessless US Highschool is.

So, many would never claim to be educated, they would be instant social outcasts if they dared do that.

And if you have education and/or actual personal experience beyond the "highschool education only, probably trade skills middle aged (or wannabe middleaged) males", the inavriable answer is exactly what you see here from the "usual suspects".....
totally disregard whatever you say and reply with a poster AND some Old Testament quote

(Notice how they avoid the New Testament---that's the one full of all that be kind to your neighbors" and help strangers stuff that sounds like filthy comma-nist propaganda....and full disclose time: I was raised in the Evangelically drenched US South is the 50s/early 60s and I adsorbed the ideas and ideals---so when I immigrated to Sweden at 17 to learn my trade---racing---my mind was well prepared for the logical extension of the idea of universal brotherhood which was International Socialism...kinda ironic that New Testament style stuff is the root of Socialism....)

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 19:14

You can dismiss his opinions all you want, but his "uneducated" vote has the same value as your "educated" vote.

But his underlying opinions, based as they are on a position of ignorance, don't.

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 19:16

BDunnell

18th September 2012, 19:17

It's not just fed, the metaphor would have to be "What drive some people to gorge themselves to bursting on this divisive, hate fueled and hate filled diet?"..

Although there is in all the English speaking countries there is some degree of a contempt for "eggheads" or "ack-a-demmicks", even that vitally important position: teachers... we see it in the crap spit out by knucklescrapers when they say "those can can do, those that can't teach".......(never realising the irony of their ability to read and repeat stupid dogma is thanks to a teacher teaching them---and ironically ignoring the huge role of "talking heads" TV commentators who neither instruct or do, but repeat crap constantly so they have some noise in their empty skulls) .

Indeed.

ShiftingGears

18th September 2012, 23:30

Which ones ? The ones that defend Obama ? Come on, I dont know how anyone could defend him. He is horrible, spineless, and all in it for himself.

If you don't know, why don't you ask so that you can understand rather than subcontracting your own arguments out to images on the internet?

Directly responding, with your own reasons, to claims you don't agree with would be a start. Did you even read and attempt to understand the viewpoints in this thread?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/chit-chat/154960-remembering-9-11-a.html

Leveling "Spineless and all in it for himself" against an opponent of Romney seems a bit silly, to be honest. Romney will say pretty much anything and argue any point of view if the bottom line is popularity.

K9njHHyRI7g

Alexamateo

19th September 2012, 00:49

http://www.slate.com/content/dam/slate/blogs/moneybox/2012/09/17/who_doesn_t_pay_taxes_/1347922367747.gif.CROP.article568-large.gif

I don't know what has happened to conservatives or conservative pundits in this country, but they appear to have lost the ability to reason.

Take for example the idea that 47% of households don't pay any income tax. That is true, but do they ever stop and ask why? They seem to imply that these people are just takers,living off the largesse of society, but 5 minutes of analysis reveals this not to be true, so why does the idea persist?

I don't know if the graph will display properly but here is the breakdown:

53% pay income taxes, 47% don't.

The 47% breakdown as follows:

28.3% pay payroll taxes
10.3% are elderly
6.9% are nonelderly income under $20,000
1% are other

Well, right off the bat you see 10.3% are people like my parents who are retired, living off savings, social security and medicare. Of course,they paid in for 40 years so they certainly feel like they have earned it.

I suppose the 6.9% who are poor and the 1% other could be considered "takers" and not "contributors" of society, I don't know, I cannot say for certain who these people are, but 7.9% is a far cry from 47%.

So that leaves the 28.3% who pay payroll, but no income taxes. What it means is that these families got back 100% of their witholding when they filed taxes. How? Well,the first thing I would point to is kids. A $1000 tax credit per child goes along way toward eliminating tax liability. The next thing is saving for retirement. IRA's and 401k's all reduce tax liability. Then there is purchasing health insurance and health savings accounts,and flexible-spending accounts. At most companies, these contributions are taken out pre-tax, so they reduce your top-line income amount (but not your social security(payroll)) amount. Then there is charity, mortgage interest, and all of the other assorted tax deductions.

So my question is this. When all of these ideas; saving for retirement, taking care of your own health care, giving, having children, owning a home; ideas championed by conservatives, are taken advantage of, why are they now complaining that we are not doing enough? Several times in the 2000's I got back 100% of withholding through careful tax planning, even making as much as $70,000/year. I thought I was being a good conservative, but I guess I was just being a freeloader.

The GOP seems to me as having lost their way. I read an article the other day talking about the disintegration of the Whigs in the 1800's, I wonder if that could happen today.

Rollo

19th September 2012, 01:22

Obama HAS TO GO. This guy is a Socialist/Communist, however you want to call it, pretty much the same thing... Government controls everything.
First off, the Government is for the people, here to protect its people, not run the people's everyday life.

Well take you suggestion of anti-Socialism/Communism and apply it to your compaints:

Unemployment higher than ever
- Two things:
1. Unemployment peaked in 1933 at 25.2%. It is now 8.1% or only a third of that. Your statement is materially wrong.
2. So what about unemployment? From a free-market viewpoint, unemployment is a consequence of there being an oversupply of labour or an underdemand of it. Suggesting that the government do anything is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Oil Prices high
- Oil prices are determined by supply and demand. Petrol in the United States is pretty well already near the cheapest in the developed world. Are you asking the government to interfere in the market and alter petrol prices and thus act with a policy with is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Ruining the healthcare system
- You already pretty well have the least socialist health care system in the world. The main reason why health care is so expensive in the United States is down to a combination of obesity rates (caused by free market choices and people's basic lack of self-control) and lack of tort reform. If you're asking for tort reform, then you're asking the government to impose more regulation which is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Lack of Military Support
- The Military itself by definition is a Socialist/Communist entity as it is a government owned monopoly. I assume you could set up private mercenary forces but if you're calling for the government to increase military spending, then you're asking the government to act with a socialistic policy - which you are complaining about.

Not defending our borders
Not enforcing illegal immigration but insteads caters to them, lets them stay here, work, get driver's licenses, etc...
- I would have thought that under NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) and especially NAALC (North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation) that the free movement of labour within the bloc was the best free-market policy. Surely you want people to stay, work and get driver's licenses, etc. in order to satisfy the requirements of labour demands.
Why are you yet again asking the government to act against this in a socialist manner? Presumably you're asking for this on the basis of protectionist reasoning but again asking the government is act is by defnition a socialistic policy - which you are complaining about.

Our Nation's credit rating has dropped to AA-
- So? Credit Ratings and assessment are based on the forces of supply and demand with regards the cost of money. If you're asking the government to sure up the credit rating and the currency, then you are in effect either asking it to interfere on money markets or credit markets; both of which by definition are socialistic policies - which you are complaining about.

Record National Debt over 16 trillion dollars. He has increased the National Debt more than all other presidents combined!
- Since 1953 (which was the last recorded fiscal surplus in the US) there have been only two months of government surplus since - Jun 1969 and Apr 2012 (I do believe that Apr 2012 may have been within Obama's tenure)
If government spending was slashed to ZERO, at FY2011 taxation receipts of $2303Bn and an interest rate of 4%, it would still take 8 years and 2 months to clear the debt; by which stage you would have shrunk the economy by reducing aggregate incomes so much that unemployment probably would have exceeded that even of the 1930s.
Also, the last time the US was actually government debt-free was in 1836. Collectively as a nation you've had easily the best part of 176 years to sort the problem. Are you actually requesting to pay more in tax to solve the issue?

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 02:28

Well take you suggestion of anti-Socialism/Communism and apply it to your compaints:

Unemployment higher than ever
- Two things:
1. Unemployment peaked in 1933 at 25.2%. It is now 8.1% or only a third of that. Your statement is materially wrong.
2. So what about unemployment? From a free-market viewpoint, unemployment is a consequence of there being an oversupply of labour or an underdemand of it. Suggesting that the government do anything is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Oil Prices high
- Oil prices are determined by supply and demand. Petrol in the United States is pretty well already near the cheapest in the developed world. Are you asking the government to interfere in the market and alter petrol prices and thus act with a policy with is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Ruining the healthcare system
- You already pretty well have the least socialist health care system in the world. The main reason why health care is so expensive in the United States is down to a combination of obesity rates (caused by free market choices and people's basic lack of self-control) and lack of tort reform. If you're asking for tort reform, then you're asking the government to impose more regulation which is decidedly socialist - which you are complaining about.

Lack of Military Support
- The Military itself by definition is a Socialist/Communist entity as it is a government owned monopoly. I assume you could set up private mercenary forces but if you're calling for the government to increase military spending, then you're asking the government to act with a socialistic policy - which you are complaining about.

Not defending our borders
Not enforcing illegal immigration but insteads caters to them, lets them stay here, work, get driver's licenses, etc...
- I would have thought that under NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) and especially NAALC (North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation) that the free movement of labour within the bloc was the best free-market policy. Surely you want people to stay, work and get driver's licenses, etc. in order to satisfy the requirements of labour demands.
Why are you yet again asking the government to act against this in a socialist manner? Presumably you're asking for this on the basis of protectionist reasoning but again asking the government is act is by defnition a socialistic policy - which you are complaining about.

Our Nation's credit rating has dropped to AA-
- So? Credit Ratings and assessment are based on the forces of supply and demand with regards the cost of money. If you're asking the government to sure up the credit rating and the currency, then you are in effect either asking it to interfere on money markets or credit markets; both of which by definition are socialistic policies - which you are complaining about.

Record National Debt over 16 trillion dollars. He has increased the National Debt more than all other presidents combined!
- Since 1953 (which was the last recorded fiscal surplus in the US) there have been only two months of government surplus since - Jun 1969 and Apr 2012 (I do believe that Apr 2012 may have been within Obama's tenure)
If government spending was slashed to ZERO, at FY2011 taxation receipts of $2303Bn and an interest rate of 4%, it would still take 8 years and 2 months to clear the debt; by which stage you would have shrunk the economy by reducing aggregate incomes so much that unemployment probably would have exceeded that even of the 1930s.
Also, the last time the US was actually government debt-free was in 1836. Collectively as a nation you've had easily the best part of 176 years to sort the problem. Are you actually requesting to pay more in tax to solve the issue?

To sum up: facts don't lie but the willful ignorance, inability to critically think and flat laziness of some "target demographics"

ALLOWS LIARS TO MAKE STUPID POSTERS in which every single point is a lie...and have it swallowed whole without a moments thought..

Again it si the reliable, predictable hate of people like "the usual suspects here" along with the known ---and amply demonstrated---intellectual sloth,
which allows regressive, ravenously greedy, flat evil people to gain legislative power and then legally plunder the whole country---and damage much of the world while they're at it..
Collateral damage and all (Sorry everybody :D )

If you're trying to lose weight and want some sickening reading, read how George W Bush and some of his daddy's friends managed to legally condemn, and evict and pay mere fractions of market rates for the properties the slimy scum intended to build---with borrowed money---the Huston Spastrodome, which was then financed at Public Expense....and then the Shrub sold his portion for $150,000,000 a few years later..

Great reading..

Socialism for the Millionaires.
America.
Fawk yeah!

Jag_Warrior

19th September 2012, 02:45

The way that he's performing this act, I really don't think Mitt Romney wants to be President.

You give some people a shovel and they'll try to dig a foundation. You give others a shovel (Romney) and they'll try to dig a grave... their own. It's not often that a candidate melts down the way this character has. First the Libya thing and now this thing, where Romney tries to swallow his foot, talking about the 47% of the electorate that he doesn't care about.

Unless Romney can hit a homerun or three during the debate, he might as well cancel that U-haul moving van scheduled for January 2013.

Tazio

19th September 2012, 03:12

"How are the mighty fallen" 2 Samuel 1:19 :s tareup:

gloomyDAY

19th September 2012, 03:35

I'm sorry but the GOP is hardly a representation of Christianity and certainly not a representation of Christ. The bible speaks far more about helping those in need and king's duties to be generous to their people than the GOP are prepared to admit.The GOP is a representation of the Christian right-wing, and it is their accurate representation of Christ. The Bible does speak of many positive aspects of human life, but the GOP only cherry-picks verses from the Old Testament (e.g. Leviticus) and completely ignores the New Testament.

As a Christian I would be deeply offendend to be represented by either the GOP or the Democrats and the fact that the Christian right is so easily manipulated suggests to me that there is a distinct lack of any critical thinking whatsoever.As a non-believer of Christ and an atheist I thank you. I can respect your beliefs and values, but not if you try and stuff them down my throat.

I wonder what the Christian right would have to say about something like this with regards their support of the two major parties in US politics?
Proverbs 14:31 Whoever oppresses a poor man insults his Maker, but he who is generous to the needy honors him.Preach it!

I completely understand your suspicions of Christianity and so-called "Christian politics"; especially given that it appears that so many people sing songs and leave their conscience at the door of a church on Sunday and merrily go about their own horrid business the rest of the week.I abhor this, terribly. Many Christians decide that once they exit their Church that they can act like assholes and be absolved from all when they return to church the following Sunday. Keep your religion at your place of worship and don't intertwine them with politics.

Ezekiel 23:19-20

Big Ben

19th September 2012, 10:43

All in all I think there isn't much much difference between the two. I really don't get this attitude of some who believe winning one over the other is the end of the world somehow.. they're both average

Bagwan

19th September 2012, 14:52

Jimmy Carter once told me a story .
Well , it wasn't Jimmy , but rather , Abby Hoffman , relating Jimmy's words .

Long story short , from behind , out of Jimmy's sight , John Tower was sent to talk to the Ayatollah to ask if the hostages could be kept long enough to make Jimmy look bad , and make Ray-gun an instant hero .
When things went sideways , Ollie and the Contras were added to confuse , and John was sent in again to cover the tracks in the Tower commission .

Somewhere about eight months after I heard Abby tell us this story , he was dead , having allegedly commintted suicide .

Given the treasonous tale he told , I don't believe it was suicide .

The reason I told you all this tale , is to illustrate that it matters not who the puppet in power happens to be .

DanicaFan

19th September 2012, 16:05

Ok so here's a thought that is likely to be the burr under the saddle pad of the liberals among us. In regard to Romney's comments stating that 47% of the vote will go to Obama because that percentage of the population is on government assistance and if the vote Nobama, that is essentially biting the hand that feeds them. Why is this remark inflammatory?
To me it is a perfectly logical conclusion. If a person is being supported by a government, then why would that person want to change that government? I think the bigger question we should ask ourselves is why under the current administration is 47% of the population dependent on the government, and why is this considered acceptable? Having such a sizable portion of the population on the public dole is disgraceful. Obama vowed to fix the economy in 3 years and if he couldnt then he'd be a one term president. I suggest he at least keep that one promise. That way he can at least claim everything he has said isn't a complete and utter lie. Wake up people. See the facts and recognize that this nightmare of a president is playing fast and loose with this country on all fronts...economically, morally, militarily/foreign policy...and he doesn't give the first damn about you or your family or your community. Caring about that would interfere with his vacations, his golf, and his letterman appearances, and hobnobbing events with Beyonce and Jay Z.

DanicaFan

19th September 2012, 16:07

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/conservative_zps2857bd23.jpg

Alexamateo

19th September 2012, 16:33

Danicafan did you not read my post? 47% is not on the public dole, unless you count the 10.3 % retirees drawing social security to which they have already paid in for 40 years. Nor should you count the 28.3% of working households that get all of their withholding refunded either because of standard deductions and personal exemptions, not to mention child tax credits of $1000 per child, or because they itemize their retirement savings, their health insurance and health and flex-spending accounts, not to mention give money to charity and take the mortgage interest deduction.

These are programs that the conservatives fought for and won to reduce the tax burden on the middle class, so why are they now complaining that people take advantage of these laws conservatives passed for us?

It is insulting to a large chunk of the population that supports conservative politicians. How can they not see it and let it go? The public dole is only the 6.9% that are poor, if that, because if you dug into it, you'd probably find out a lot of those 6.9% are students.

Gregor-y

19th September 2012, 16:41

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/conservative_zps2857bd23.jpg
I don't believe it about conservatives, but for sure bald eagles couldn't exist or live very well without the Endangered Species Act, which I don't think you'll find many conservatives claiming to support.

It's not even worth arguing with stuff like this. Just point and laugh.

BDunnell

19th September 2012, 17:02

Danicafan did you not read my post?

I think it's in posts like the two above to which you refer that the deficiencies in education mentioned earlier are demonstrated most clearly. I say this entirely seriously. They are typical of a person who simply does not want to learn, to be informed — the mark of an individual happy to wallow in their own ignorance, and entirely comfortable with others considering them ignorant.

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 17:13

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee236/DanicaRules/conservative_zps2857bd23.jpg

No, they couldn't.
Another lie.
You're too lazy to read more than posters, but all adults know that all the heavily so called "Conservative" areas in the whole country are all the areas where direct Government cash infusions and subsidies are the highest.
The US South has the highest percentage of Federal aid and always have.Highest % of Food Stamps, welfare, farm aid, military bases--which is direct free money, tax rebates to corporations to locate; they could not survive without outside aid---from Progressives.
The only reason they have water, roads, electricity, schools, harbors, railroads, is because the hard working people in the rest of the country pay their taxes and the Feds send them money..
In the Western half of the whole country the population density is too low to justify building roads, railroads, water, electricity generation and distribution, postal service, schools, universities based on the local population tax base, so us Progressive tax payers tax ourseleves and subsidise the empty parts. That's true on the county level, true on the State level.
Farmers---and agribusiness live and die on subsidies and price guarantees and publicly provided transport network..along with generous deductions at tax time---that's Progressive policy and changed the rural parts of the country from being backwards, atavistic poor regions frozen in their development---to being able to make everybody in the country not just fed, but fat---and export their wheat and grains and "stuff" to the rest of the world, even if they are still black-holes of logic.

Conservatives without liberal political and economic and credit policies would have died generations ago..

Danicaboy, you disrespect the very policies which made the country great..
We all know what the country looked like before all the modern liberal/progressive policies raised the whole country up.
People, over 90% lived in utter poverty, died on average 20 years earlier from preventable diseases like tuberculosis aggravated by poor diets thru their lifetimes..

Vote whatever you want, but learn a bit of reality and stop with these absurd, brainless nonsensical posters.

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 17:21

I think it's in posts like the two above to which you refer that the deficiencies in education mentioned earlier are demonstrated most clearly. I say this entirely seriously. They are typical of a person who simply does not want to learn, to be informed — the mark of an individual happy to wallow in their own ignorance, and entirely comfortable with others considering them ignorant.

On a related note, you may have read about the Conservative push to link teacher pay and even continued employment to "student achievement" allegedly (actually it's all about destroying unions and suppressing wages of teachers who teach other people's kids that they don't think are as worthy as their own kids)..

I counter that teachers can only do so much when there is a culture of resistence to even reading---much less thinking----and this guy Danicawannabe is an excellent example of why teacher's pay should never be linked to what possibly recalcitrant and obstinate children decide to do.

Good info in, garbage out--on purpose. What can the society do?

BDunnell

19th September 2012, 17:33

John, reading your posts on this topic, I feel bad about having got into an argument with you on Assange, etc.

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 18:25

John, reading your posts on this topic, I feel bad about having got into an argument with you on Assange, etc.

Oh don't feel bad about getting into an argument, misunderstandings can pop up anywhere and where you least expect. If this were a Monty Python skit we'd cue the clashing organs now and the guys would jump out in Cardinal's outfits...wait----? um never mind.

Only thing I thought kind of 'no fun" and confusing was this kind of vaguely dismissive thing that you do sometimes and did there which I presume comes from you not liking not the content or the implied ideas I was writing but the mode or 'authorial voice' which I tend to write in.. Thing is on written forums I tend to look at these things as more conversation, like at a pub or a quiet party at home, not stylized debate, not lectures, but talk---which is why I play with languages, spellings, etc since we don't have sound, voice, inflection and importantly nuance....
Some of the misunderstanding may be just a strongly differing conversational style grown out of vastly different social and cultural backgrounds and that's something that I had to struggle against with myself to not dismiss people soley because the sounded like a "gawddam hick" or "a pommie bastid" or_______________ (insert generic term for foreign worker)( Oh! Snap! I was a foreign worker!!)
I learned eventually to listen to not just the words, but the intent, their hope in words.

DanicaFan

19th September 2012, 18:33

DanicaFan

19th September 2012, 18:40

If you guys seriously think another 4 years of this will be good for the country or things will change, you are greatly mistaken. Oh, they will change but for the worse. Go see Obama 2016. America will fall quickly under his regime another 4 years. We cannot afford it.

Voting for Obama in November and expecting more empty promises with his already proven failed policies is basically insanity. Not going to happen.

Reminds me of the words of Albert Einstein...

Insanity...doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I served in the military and defended this country and the right to say this.... Obama is a moron. lol

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 18:51

I honestly dont know how anyone could vote for Obama. Wow, it just baffles me. The guy has done nothing good for this country...

Increased debt to over 16 Trillion
43 months of Unemployment over 8%
Wasted billions of taxpayer money on Solyndra and other green-energy scams.
Given Billions of taxpayer money to foreign countries and these same countries are attacking us.
A gallon of gas when he took office average 1.84 a gallon, now its 3.84 average
Our Credit rating has plummeted.
Lack of immigration policies and enforcement. He wants to give them money, feed them, license them.... I dont get that
Decrease military funding

Oh, I could go on and on.

You are going on and on, you posted essentially the same thing a few days ago and had every single point proven to be a lie.
Here: explain this:
http://66.70.86.64/ChartServer/ch.gaschart?Country=Canada&Crude=f&Period=60&Areas=USA%20Average,,&Unit=US%20$/G

Explain why the gas prices were higher under the Republican regime..
And give us a suggestion on what any President is supposed to do to control gas prices...

BDunnell

19th September 2012, 18:53

I served in the military and defended this country and the right to say this.... Obama is a moron. lol[/LEFT]

Do you seriously expect anyone to see such a statement and consider you to be someone whose view deserves to be taken seriously?

Honestly, you seem to have real difficulty even comprehending the points being put to you, let alone addressing or debating them.

DanicaFan

19th September 2012, 18:55

I know the facts, I got the facts. I dont watch CNN, MSNBC and all that other liberal media out there that only gives you what they want you to hear..half-truths, etc.

You need to watch FOX News. They have it all layed out there, the whole truth and not afraid to say it. Not some biased media outlet that caters to the liberals.

janvanvurpa

19th September 2012, 19:12

I

Reminds me of the words of Albert Einstein...

Insanity...doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

I served in the military and defended this country and the right to say this.... Obama is a moron. lol

You can't get anything right it seems:

The answer isn't really known but current consensus is that it came from the author Rita Mae Brown in her book Sudden Death on Pg. 68 from 1983.

Quote: "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results."

Most people will attribute this quote to Albert Einstein but there is no evidence to suggest that he made this statement.

This quote "Insanity is repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results" appears in the Basic Text of Narcotics Anonymous which was copyrighted in 1982 and later published in 1983. It is found on page 11 of the final "Review Form" which was distributed to the fellowship in November of 1981. It is found on page 23 of the current sixth edition.

Whenever I hear people claiming right to speak---granted every human by birth and enshrined in the 1st Amendment, but when I hear them claim because they couldn't get a job so they took the easy way out and signed up I feel compelled to ask:
When were you in the military and what were your position/duties, and where were you stationed?

The world can be the judge of if you "defended" this country, or if you were just another guy public assistance.
Or if you were busy making the world safe for Exxon and GM.

Now despite the rather painful fact that you don't seem very bright at all, SEEM I stress--it could be that you just express yourself poorly---maybe you don't know it but morons dont do this:

(Obama) After graduating with a J.D. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor) magna cum laude (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_honors#Types)[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama#cite_note-Juris_Doctor-41) from Harvard in 1991,

Now I ran a small race/rally oriented shop just blocks from Harvard and down the road from MIT and while i was shocked at the ignorance and arrogance and insularity of the young people i ran into. and could see much obvious difference between the local Masshole townies and the students in their behavior

And we know that virtually anybody can get IN, if daddy and Grandpa give those Ivy League schools enough millions but

But do you really think a moron can FINISH "magna cum laude" from law school?

I am positive you have no idea what magna cum laude means so here:

magna cum laude (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/magna_cum_laude), meaning "with great honor" [/*:m:3l51sh6l]

You obviously blindly hate Obama, we have a good idea why, but only a mormon would call him a moron...

Oh did I spell that wrong?