What did Apple actually invent?

[Daniel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFeC25BM9E0)

[pino]

Welcome to the forums :wave: :p :

[race aficionado]

Steve Jobs rocks!!!! :)


Sent from my Olympics home headquarters using Tapatalk

[ioan]

Good one!

[ioan]

Steve Jobs rocks!!!! :)

Given where he lies at this time, that's about the only thing he can see! :D

[gloomyDAY]

Apple is not a company that invents, but innovates. They get their ideas from other companies, make them marketable for the common-user, and then patent those used ideas as their own. I think they have pushed other companies to cater to the customer, rather than just hand out useless crap. Say whatever you want about the iPhone, it was the standard for Android and Co.

Unfortunately, Apple have now taken to the courts as a means to stomp out companies with supposed patent infringements. The lawsuits are frivolous and completely laughable, and the industry is not taking any of Apple's guff. They better start innovating again because run-of-the-mill companies have taken notice and are starting to surpass Apple.


Given where he lies at this time, that's about the only thing he can see! :D I laughed pretty hard. You made my day. Thanks!

[Big Ben]

the rectangle AFAIK

[race aficionado]

iAsh

[ArrowsFA1]

Henry Ford didn't need to invent the motor car to revolutionise motoring.

[ioan]

the rectangle AFAIK

:rotflmao: :up:

And the round button! ;)

[ioan]

They better start innovating again because run-of-the-mill companies have taken notice and are starting to surpass Apple.

They first need to get their hands on others' breakthrough ideas, only after that will they be able to 'innovate', though with the patent war that they started themselves they will find out that the others will not be willing to let them innovate anymore. What goes around comes around.


I laughed pretty hard. You made my day. Thanks!

Cheers! :)

[Mark]

What did they invent? Operating systems. Quite simply. The hardware is just a platform to run the OS.

[BleAivano]

What did they invent? Operating systems. Quite simply. The hardware is just a platform to run the OS.

sorry but apple did NOT invent the operating system.


t is generally thought that the first operating system used for real work was GM-NAA I/O (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM-NAA_I/O), produced in 1956 by General Motors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors)'
Research division [1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_operating_systems#cite_note-0) for its IBM 704 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_704).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_operating_systems#cite_note-CHM-1956-SW-1) Most other early operating systems for IBM mainframes were also produced by customers.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_operating_systems#cite_note-bozemanlugHistoryOfLinux-2)
History of operating systems - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_operating_systems#cite_note-CHM-1956-SW-1)


UNIX was also developed before Apple even existed.

[Mark]

LOL no. That's not what I meant at all.

What I mean is that the real innovation is in the software which runs on their devices. e.g. OSX, iOS. Rather than the hardware.

[ioan]

What did they invent? Operating systems.

Absolutely not.

[BleAivano]

LOL no. That's not what I meant at all.

What I mean is that the real innovation is in the software which runs on their devices. e.g. OSX, iOS. Rather than the hardware.

I still don't agree with you. Developing an OS of their own is not the same as inventing an OS.

[Mark]

I still don't agree with you. Developing an OS of their own is not the same as inventing an OS.

WTF I never claimed they did!!! The mind boggles.

[pino]

This thread reminds me Pirelli's thread on F1 forum :eek: :p :

[race aficionado]

I'll go back to my quote that says Steve Jobs Rocks:


The Man Who Invented Our World






Steve Jobs dead: How the Apple founder changed the world. - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/10/steve_jobs_dead_how_the_apple_founder_changed_the_ world_.html)




All "inventions" are based off something else. It's always a case of looking at something, mixing ingredients and then making it better.

[Jag_Warrior]

Here's a link to an article that describes some of Jobs' patents. A patent can be granted for a brand new product or object (the wheel) or a unique refinement or innovation to something that already exists in basic form (like spokes in the wheel).

Steve Jobs’ Patents (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/08/24/technology/steve-jobs-patents.html)

During the recent Samsung trial, there was an Apple engineer who was called to the stand. From what I recall, he had over 100 patents listed under his name as well.

This is an interesting thread. I was discussing a subject, for which I have a great passion, with a friend of mine who is a professor of history: the items made famous by the Roman Republic/Empire. He noted that the Romans didn't (actually) "invent" the gladius short sword, their unique shield, the scorpio artillery piece or even their distinctive helmets (which identify them to this very day - and on which even some modern military helmets are based). All of those things came from other cultures... most of which are now largely forgotten and lost to history. The Romans took all of these items, in basic form, refined them, melded them into an overall system and it was them who made them effective... and famous.

What did the Romans actually invent? Like Apple, not as much as many assume... but more than some like to give them credit for. ;)

[Big Ben]

I'll go back to my quote that says Steve Jobs Rocks:


The Man Who Invented Our World






Steve Jobs dead: How the Apple founder changed the world. - Slate Magazine (http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2011/10/steve_jobs_dead_how_the_apple_founder_changed_the_ world_.html)




All "inventions" are based off something else. It's always a case of looking at something, mixing ingredients and then making it better.

"Jobs’ best talent was his ability to spot the pain points in every technology he touched. He could look at anything and tell you why it sucked".

amazing man. iNspiring :laugh: .

that's one for the books. that's the best they could say about him in an eulogy? My amazing ability is to tell you why my iPhone sucks. I should have applied to be Jobs' boss.

http://www.pic4ever.com/images/5yjbztv.gif

[D-Type]

The essence of Engineering is taking an existing product and improving it. The product can be as old as the wheel or a brand new invention. The key is developing it.

[call_me_andrew]

The man who first attempted curing a pork belly invented bacon. The man who applied said bacon to a cheeseburger, innovated.

[Alfa Fan]

The man who first attempted curing a pork belly invented bacon. The man who applied said bacon to a cheeseburger, innovated.

Bacon is from a pig's back.. not belly :s

[Big Ben]

Bacon is from a pig's back.. not belly :s

Maybe that's why it's an invention... or an innovation :p :

[ioan]

Maybe that's why it's an invention... or an innovation :p :

Yep, just like Apple products.

[Jag_Warrior]

Something was said by the OP in another thread some time ago - and it kind of stuck with me. We were discussing Microsoft, a company that he is/was a fan of, and Apple. He seemed to believe that Apple could not survive or prosper in the long term because its business model was based on innovation. They continually have to come up with new, cutting edge, marketable products and services. He saw that as a big risk. But all one has to do is look at Wang Labs, DEC (remember those two???), Nokia, RIM and a host of others to see what happens when (especially) high tech companies are unable/unwilling to innovate. He was right, that this is a risk for Apple. But it is a risk for any company that is in this sector. As long as Apple gets it right, they should continue to be successful. If they begin treading water, then the company will probably begin to look more like Microsoft. I don't mean that as a dig. It's just an observation of the respective companies states of being. If MSFT gets Windows 8 right, and it's successful, then they may get back on track. If they get it wrong, then the market will probably continue seeing MSFT as if it was an electric or water utility or a seller of generic commodities.

In high tech, you HAVE to innovate! No one cares who invents something (as long as it's legally licensed). What matters is who brings the right product to market... at the right time and at the right price.

[driveace]

I use an iPad. And don't care who,s idea it was,but I enjoy it.And welcome back to the fold Daniel

[call_me_andrew]

Bacon is from a pig's back.. not belly :s

Bacon can be cut from a pig's side, back, or belly. I used belly because that's the most common cut used for bacon in the U.S.

From USDA.gov (http://www.fsis.usda.gov/Fact_Sheets/Bacon_and_Food_Safety/index.asp):


What is bacon?
The term "bacon" is used to describe the cured belly of a swine (hog) carcass. If meat from other portions of the carcass is used, the product name must identify the portions where the bacon comes from, e.g., "Pork Shoulder Bacon." Bacon is generally produced from young animals (6 to 7 months old) that weigh between 175 to 240 pounds.

Pork bacon without any other descriptors is raw (uncooked) and must be cooked before eating. Most bacon sold in the United States is "streaky" bacon, long narrow slices cut crosswise from the hog belly that contain veins of pink meat within white fat. Unless otherwise noted, the information in this publication refers to "streaky" bacon.

In addition to "streaky" bacon, other U.S. favorites are American-style Canadian bacon (round slices of pink meat from the loin), turkey bacon made from light and dark turkey meat, and beef bacon prepared from various beef cuts. See the "Glossary of Bacon Terms" (found at the end of this publication) for definitions.

[Mark]

But Xerox invented pigs.

[AndyRAC]

So, Sir Isaac Newton didn't invent the apple? He just innovated it....?? ;)

[pino]

...and Italians invented spaghetti carbonara :p :

[schmenke]

Companies such as Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, Nokia, IBM, and dozens of others have done nothing but capitalize on two “inventions”, without which just about all their products would have not been possible:

The microprocessor, invited by (arguably) Intel, and;
The theory of Quantum Mechanics, “invented” over the last few decades by a host of mathematicians and scientists.

[Mark]

Well of course Apple and most other mobile smart phone manufacturers rely on the invention of low power consumption CPUs, first invented by Acorn Computers in the UK.

[Big Ben]

The point of the clip seemed to be made about Apple's paranoid attitude towards competition and some of the seemingly ridiculous suits they've started. You can't start suing other companies for building devices with round shaped corners or leaving holes in the bagels. They behave like they invented hot water. You say they innovate. Alright, but they do seem to behave as if they invented all this stuff, don't they?

[BleAivano]

Big Ben, i agree with you. Just look at TV's they all look the same. A rectangular screen with a black frame.
But do they sue each other? Do car manufacturers sue each other when they loan some design futures from each other?

The answer is no they don't.

I also have no faith in the USA courts that will decide in the matter.

Apple have several times been caught with using fabricated evidences,
mainly consisting of images that have been photoshopped by Apple to support their case.

[Big Ben]

Who says I don't like Apple? I just didn't raise them to the cult status others have. I like some Apple products (all in all I'm pretty satisfied with my iPhone even if it's berfore yesterday's news) but I still find this tactics pathetic.

[BleAivano]

Samsung Claims Apple Exposed To iPad-Like Tablet In Mid-90s | Pocketnow (http://pocketnow.com/2012/08/15/apple-ipad-design-copied/)

So it seems Apple copied a product from 1994 when they made their Ipad.

[Mark]

The current patent tit for tit isn't helping anyone and is stifling innovation.

[ArrowsFA1]

You serve me
And I'll serve you
Swing your partners, all get screwed
Bring your lawyer
And I'll bring mine
Get together, and we could have
A bad time
Sue Me, Sue You Blues by George Harrison

[Malbec]

Do car manufacturers sue each other when they loan some design futures from each other?

The answer is no they don't.

Errr car manufacturers aggressively threaten each other with legal action if they believe certain features are copied. The difference between car manufacturers and electronics manufacturers is that the former are very keen to differentiate their products from other makers whereas imitation is far more common in electronics.

Where car makers feel that a rival is bringing something to market that may confuse the customer as to its origin they sue. Hence why the 911 is not called the 901 as Porsche originally intended as Peugeot successfully brought a court case against them claiming they had the right to the x-0-x numbering system as a brand. Ditto Ford vs Ferrari over the F150 name. There have been numerous court cases in China against local makers that have blatantly copied Western manufacturers.

Another difference is that car manufacturers are less secretive and are far more likely to hire expertise and share information from rival companies although they do not want the public to know about this. Hence they trade patents or simply buy the completed product fully above board from rivals negating the need for companies to sue. Again where information is thought to have been stolen from a rival they will not hesitate to sue. Check out GM suing VW for Lopez taking his corporate secrets with him ending in a $100 million cash settlement and a further agreement that VW buy $1 billion worth of spares from GM. Puts this whole Apple vs Samsung tiff into perspective.


I also have no faith in the USA courts that will decide in the matter.

In this case I believe the judge has been reasonable pressing both sides to settle this at the top level outside the legal system to come to a sensible agreement. Neither side have been interested in doing so. I suspect that whatever the conclusion reached, it will not be what either Apple or Samsung hoped for but something intended to deter both and other parties from bringing similar cases in the future.

[Jag_Warrior]

Once certain patents are recognized as industry standards, the license holders are compelled to offer them for a reasonable price under license agreements to competitors. The European version of this requirement is called FRAND: Fair and Reasonable Use Standards. In the U.S., it is RAND: Reasonable and Non-discriminatory Terms. These measures are meant to ensure a certain level of device and component compatibility. But it does not give OEM's free reign to copy or use a patented products or innovations at will, even when some attempt has been made to secure a license. When that happens, or one party feels that it has happened, there will be a legal dispute, as we're seeing throughout the high tech sector now. So they go to court. And a judge and/or jury decides who is in the right. That's just what (hopefully) happens in a civil society.

And speaking of the automotive industry, Caroll Shelby most certainly did go to court to protect the "look and feel" of the Cobra design, when various companies began making Cobra replicas years ago without his permission. And rather than steal the patented technology, Ferrari pays General Motors a licensing fee for the adaptive magnetic suspension technology that it uses. A little known fact (that just came out during the Apple vs. Samsung trial) is that Apple licenses certain mobile technologies to (wait for it)... Microsoft! :eek: But MSFT is prohibited from making iPhone or iPad clones. The same thing happens in the TV industry. If Sony owns a patent, and Samsung wants to use this innovation in its TV's, it can. But it has to secure a license to (legally) do it. I have a DirecTV TiVo box in my house. It just went through a major software upgrade a few weeks ago. Lots of cool new features. And as I was digging around in the support documentation deep in the software, I noticed that TiVo has licensed certain technologies from Apple, related to the Bonjour service. That's perfectly legal. But when EchoStar attempted to lift certain TiVo features, mostly related to the TiVo Time Warp feature, and use them without paying a fee, TiVo sued them and it cost EchoStar/Dish Network a cool $500 million.

If I had just bought a high tech company for a couple of billion dollars (still hoping that my bank loan will go through for my hostile takeover of Commodore Computer :dozey :) , I would hope that I would call an attorney if I had a dispute with another company. Otherwise, I could do it the Mexican Zeta Way: have my henchman go over to the rival CEO's house and shoot his dog, his cat and his kid's pet hamster (I'm gangsta like that!). :bandit:

Apple feels that it has been wronged, so they lawyered up. It was either that or call Luca Brasi...
http://img202.imagevenue.com/loc173/th_260433997_LUCABRASI_TOYSHOPPING_122_173lo.jpg (http://img202.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=260433997_LUCABRASI_TOYSHOPPING_122_ 173lo.jpg)

[airshifter]

What did Apple actually invent? Internet haters, trolling various forums to spew their dislike of a very popular brand/OS combination that most actual users find rock solid and a great interface. This also created a growth in the internet fanboi revolution, though initial credit for that is mostly owned by Microsoft. :)

[pino]

Lol airshifter :up: :D

[CaptainRaiden]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4904804_700b.jpg

[airshifter]

I think thats the thing about this discussion. Apple appears to attract more criticism than any other provider and I can't understand why that is. If it was down solely to the cost, or the fact people thought the OS was rubbish for the money, then they simply wouldn't buy it and not be at all bothered by it. But there is alot of passion in these arguments and a need to put Apple down by some which is confusing. Android offers a great alternative to Apple and I've been thoroughly happy with my Android phones, but I've never allowed myself to become single minded about one service to the point I would never consider anything else.

I think the real issue is that people know Apple are very good at what they do, if not a little on the pricey side, but feel because they maybe out of reach of can't justify the expense themselves, they feel the need to criticize in order to make them feel better about what they have. Thats all fine, but I'm a firm believer in buying what you like (can afford) and for what best suits your needs. I recently had the opportunity (saved a bit of money) to choose between signing up to Sky for the F1, or buying a device that I will use everyday and get far more use out of. Sod the F1, I can watch that on the beeb and can get a nice shiney phone instead. Still haven't decided whether it will be the iPhone or the new Samsung S3 in Black.. :)

This is almost a mirror image of my view. I don't currently own any Apple products, but our daughter has an older iPod touch. But it's a give and take thing... I got a deal on my Android phone but I'll be the first to admit the interface isn't as user friendly as the Apple product is. Cheaper is better in some cases to some people, but in other cases or people cheaper is often just cheaper.

I made the mistake of upgrading my phone to Ice Cream Sandwich at the end of the work week. While some love it, it just slowed down my productivity the end of that week. The interface changed just enough to slow things down and make me look for things I was previously familiar with. Thus is slowed down the human part of the interface.

I don't understand the haters on either side myself. I could buy all of us in my family new iPhones and iPads, as well as computers. But I don't hate anyone because I've made a choice not to do it. Nor will I hate any non Apple users if I finally get an iPad. It just makes no sense to me, and is juvenile. There are a lot of phone features that can still be done with pencil and paper. I wonder if those choosing to use a calculator or paper calendar hate all of us technology users? ;)

[airshifter]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4904804_700b.jpg

I can just see it now... many men reminding woman that mass storage space is very important these days, while some others say less is just fine!

[Dave B]

The current patent tit for tit isn't helping anyone and is stifling innovation.
Agreed. Genuine new innovations deserve to be protected, but natural evolutions of product design do not. Apple seem to be the main culprits of this, although as stated others are becoming as bad. You can't copyright the basic shape of an iPhone or iPad when those products themselves owe so much to their predecessors.

[Jag_Warrior]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/4904804_700b.jpg

Will we hear that more than 34(C) gigs is a waste? Well, one thing is for certain, Apple sales of 34(DD) gig storage devices in Orange County and Beverly Hills, CA are going to shoot through the roof! If they can manage to develop something similar and call it iLips, I look for AAPL to top $2000/ share within six months! :bounce:

[odykas]

Apple probably invented the iMarketing and iBS.

But as regards to everything else, not even close to invention ;)

BTW, welcome back Denial :D

[CaptainRaiden]

I think the real issue is that people know Apple are very good at what they do, if not a little on the pricey side, but feel because they maybe out of reach of can't justify the expense themselves, they feel the need to criticize in order to make them feel better about what they have. Thats all fine, but I'm a firm believer in buying what you like (can afford) and for what best suits your needs.

There is so much wrong with that post. Oh boy, if only I had more time, I'd type out a longer response, but unfortunately work calls.

So, in short, I'll just say this as a non-Apple user. If there was anything even remotely appealing to me about an iPhone 4S, I wouldn't have spent more money on a Galaxy S3. ;)

[pino]

So, in short, I'll just say this as a non-Apple user. If there was anything even remotely appealing to me about an iPhone 4S, I wouldn't have spent more money on a Galaxy S3. ;)

How about the amazing audio ? ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

How about the amazing audio ? ;)

Galaxy S3 + Poweramp Full Version + Sony MDR earbuds > Anything else on the market. ;)

P.S. - Even dedicated MP3 players.

[CaptainRaiden]

What's funny is that with all of these lawsuits going on, Apple remains Samsung's biggest customer:

As court drama heats up, Apple remains Samsung's biggest client; companies closely tied on components (http://www.phonearena.com/news/As-court-drama-heats-up-Apple-remains-Samsungs-biggest-client-companies-closely-tied-on-components_id33122)

So, the bottom line is Samsung supplies Apple with LCDs, mobile application processors and NAND flash memory chips, and I'm sure at quite a premium.

So, whenever you're buying an Apple product, what you're essentially buying is Samsung hardware with a fancy OS at a higher price. :p

[pino]

Sony MDR are crap compared to Shure or even Klipsch image 4i and no mobile or Mp3 can match iPhone audio.

[CaptainRaiden]

Sony MDR are crap compared to Shure or even Klipsch image 4i and no mobile or Mp3 can match iPhone audio.

Is that an opinion or a fact? I have heard both, and Galaxy S3 clearly is the better IMO. In fact, if you read any Audiophile blog, they swear by the DAC in the older Galaxy S. If you dig deeper for expert comments, iPhone doesn't even rank in the top 5 music smartphones. Don't know what you're smoking.

Top 10 Smartphones for Music Lovers (http://www.siliconindia.com/gadget/news/Top-10-Smartphones-for-Music-Lovers-nid-117671.html)

Besides, when I buy a $600 smartphone, "sound quality" is not really at the top of my features list. Call sound quality, yes, but I could really be bothered less about how it plays my songs.

[CaptainRaiden]

So Apple sell Samsung hardware at a higher price but you paid more for your S3? Sounds like you were ripped off dude.. :p

Since the Galaxy S3 is 4 times the phone iPhone is in every department possible, I think it's a good deal. ;)

Can't even imagine what a quad core iPhone with expandable memory would cost like! :eek:


PS: Sharp are supplying the LCD screens for the new iPhone not Samsung.

Source to prove this fact? As far as I know, Sharp is only providing LCDs for Apple's upcoming Smart-TV thingy.

As far as portable products like phones, tablets like your iPhone, iPad etc., you can thank Samsung. :)

In fact, Pino should thank Samsung for the "amazing" sound quality of his iPhone as well, as Apple used Samsung made microprocessors. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

My bad. :p I actually did pay less for the Galaxy S3 32GB compared to the iPhone 4S 32 GB.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Samsung-Galaxy-S3-Simfree-Unlocked/dp/B0089OM7NM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345460480&sr=8-1

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Apple-iPhone-4S-32GB-SIM-Free/dp/B005VO7HNI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1345460463&sr=8-1

So yeah, I stand by my previous statement. :)



What's funny is that with all of these lawsuits going on, Apple remains Samsung's biggest customer:

As court drama heats up, Apple remains Samsung's biggest client; companies closely tied on components (http://www.phonearena.com/news/As-court-drama-heats-up-Apple-remains-Samsungs-biggest-client-companies-closely-tied-on-components_id33122)

So, the bottom line is Samsung supplies Apple with LCDs, mobile application processors and NAND flash memory chips, and I'm sure at quite a premium.

So, whenever you're buying an Apple product, what you're essentially buying is Samsung hardware with a fancy OS at a higher price. :p

[CaptainRaiden]

Sharp begins production of world's first IGZO LCD panels | iPhone Atlas - CNET Reviews (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-19512_7-57413856-233/sharp-begins-production-of-worlds-first-igzo-lcd-panels/)

Well, then, you and Pino can thank Samsung for the hardware in your current Apple products. :)

[CaptainRaiden]

Its always nice to be happy to pay more for a phone if you personally feel it is justified. Its just a shame the same stance is not tolerated when the product is made by Apple.

Since I can't do half the things with an iPhone 4S, that I can do with a Galaxy S3, I believe I am justified in not tolerating Apple's higher markup.


I would imagine Apple will use the same pricing system they have used on every iPhone ever released. The price regardless of the spec will be in line with the previous iPhone. Mark and myself have repeated that several times on the other thread.

That remains to be seen. Apple will not match Samsung's hardware, connectivity and memory management, it never has. So, I expect another 4S with slightly improved hardware and the iOS 6 at the same price.


PS: Everybody is well aware Apple paid Samsung to develop the iPhone and this is hardly a revelation.

And your point is? I am well aware Samsung helped Apple develop the iPhone and even the iOS, also Siri. What I'm talking about is Apple using pretty much 90% Samsung hardware for its current lineup of products. Every Apple phone or tablet anybody owns currently has Samsung hardware in it, and that's a fact.

Sharp will provide the LCD for the iPhone 5, but I believe the A5 processors and NAND flash memory will still be manufactured by Samsung.

[CaptainRaiden]

If Pino is anything like me, he probably won't really give two hoots where the insides of his phone comes from in the grand scheme of things. The fact is, the OS on each is very different and that is usually what pleases the customer most. If my wife witnessed this debate right now, she'd probably tell us all to get a life!! :p

I wonder henners, how many times when you don't have a retort to something, you're going to drag your wife into a debate here and try to make it look like talking about hardware or tech stuff on a "discussion forum" in a thread about a "tech company" is somehow uncool.

These posts give me the impression of talking with stuck-up rich brats, who switch to the "no life" card every time their argument gets weak. You do realize you have close to 7000 posts on this forum in just four years. Your wife must REALLY hate this place then.

[pino]

Captain I don't care who invent what, I am just very satisfied with my iPhone. I trust my ears much more than any test people show me and my ears are telling me the iPhone has the best audio on the market period. As for smoking, my work doesn't allow me that unfortunately...

[CaptainRaiden]

I do get a lot of stick if I'm caught typing something for here yes, but I laugh it off.
I've obviously touched a nerve with you here and shall depart for now. I won't apologize because I'm not sorry and don't feel my argument has got weak at all. I've never disputed Samsung make components for Apple and thought I'd pointed that out. I'm a little tired of the anti Apple stuff here and its clearly one way traffic and I have nothing more to add.

Well, if the anti-Apple stuff bothers you, why bother posting in anti-Apple threads at all? You defend Apple tooth and nails, then claim you're not an Apple fan, then when it gets into tech stuff, you get oversensitive and start talking about your wife and how we're wasting our time here. It's a pattern I'm way too familiar with from previous threads.


Suggesting I don't really care who makes the hardware for my phone does not make me a 'stuck up rich brat' either and its a little unclassy to resort to suggestive insults in what was a sensible discussion.

No. My retort was to your claim earlier in the thread.


I think the real issue is that people know Apple are very good at what they do, if not a little on the pricey side, but feel because they maybe out of reach of can't justify the expense themselves, they feel the need to criticize in order to make them feel better about what they have.

The iPhone 4S was well within my reach, but I bought a Galaxy S3. An iPad is well within my reach, but I will buy a laptop. I don't have a tech degree, I am not a software OR a hardware engineer, but I can pretty much do everything in my PC. It's not rocket science, it comes with trial and error. Anybody who can tinker with their PC and keep it running smooth, knows how ridiculous Apple's markup is.

I enjoy talking about tech, and being passionate about tech is just like being passionate about beer. But being techy is uncool for some people and alcoholics are cool. Some of my comments may even come off as anti-Apple, but they're strictly tech based. Talking about tech as uncool and playing the "no-life" card is what brings down sensible discussions.

[Dave B]

Arguing which smartphone has the best audio is like arguing which wasps nest would be the most fun to stick your genitals in. :p

[Big Ben]

Now easy there big fellas.... you're nothing but annoying attachments to your money to all of them :laugh: ... no point in getting so worked up over some commercial products...

[DonJippo]

my ears are telling me the iPhone has the best audio on the market period

Your ears are lying kujio :p :

[Malbec]

Captain I don't care who invent what, I am just very satisfied with my iPhone. I trust my ears much more than any test people show me and my ears are telling me the iPhone has the best audio on the market period.

If you were telling me your android phone had fantastic audio I'd believe you, sadly you're telling me its your iPhone so you must be biased and deluded!

[Malbec]

So, the bottom line is Samsung supplies Apple with LCDs, mobile application processors and NAND flash memory chips, and I'm sure at quite a premium.

Wow, your understanding of industry is really lacking.

Samsung is indeed one of Apple's component suppliers. It does not supply anything like 90% of the components whether by value, weight or any other marker but you're right, its probably the biggest single component supplier for the iPhone.

The thing is, those components would not be supplied at a premium. Quite the opposite in fact. The markup would be low and of course Samsung would have to carry the cost for retooling etc etc whenever any changes were made to the component production process and if various quality and logistical targets were not achieved they would be financially punished too. If they mess up the potential is there for component suppliers to rack up big losses.

Had it not crossed your mind why Samsung is keen to produce the finished article, whether phones or tablets and market them direct to the consumer? Why PC companies like Acer, phone companies like HTC and bicycle companies like Univega realised there's a bigger profit to be made by selling the complete product as their own brand rather than as a component supplier to existing brands?

Have you not studied the Toyota management method which involved transferring as much cost and risk to upstream suppliers to maximise profitability and productivity?

One result of this whole conflict is that Apple is cutting down its reliance on Samsung and is switching suppliers to Japanese ones. Its quite telling how unattractive the component supply side of the business that its only financially desperate companies like Sharp and Sony that are signing up to produce components for the iPhone 5.

[Jag_Warrior]

What's funny is that with all of these lawsuits going on, Apple remains Samsung's biggest customer:

As court drama heats up, Apple remains Samsung's biggest client; companies closely tied on components (http://www.phonearena.com/news/As-court-drama-heats-up-Apple-remains-Samsungs-biggest-client-companies-closely-tied-on-components_id33122)

So, the bottom line is Samsung supplies Apple with LCDs, mobile application processors and NAND flash memory chips, and I'm sure at quite a premium.

So, whenever you're buying an Apple product, what you're essentially buying is Samsung hardware with a fancy OS at a higher price. :p

Not meaning to be offensive (really!), but as Malbec pointed out, you don't seem to have a very good handle on the concept of contract manufacturing. Whether talking about cars, computers, phones or any other product which is a collection of components, most OEM's employ a variety of suppliers. And, as in the case of Apple, even with a single component, there is typically more than one supplier. This is most often seen when the supplier is not design responsible. In a case like that, Apple develops the design, the supplier *may* develop the process, Apple signs off on the process and away they go.

I have worked for automotive suppliers (and others) which were design responsible and others which were not. Depending on the component, in cases where the OEM supplies the design, usually the OEM will retain the patent rights to the product - so they may then use any number of component suppliers to make their component. If the component manufacturer is design responsible, they will typically retain the product and manufacturing process patents, though they may be legally limited to whom they could sell that or a roughly similar component. But unless the particular arrangement is fully detailed in something like a court case, it's not usually the case that the public will ever be aware of the details.

You and I could both own iPhones of the same model (4S let's say), but the two devices may have a number of components from entirely different suppliers. The common thread would be that both devices would have components (of whatever origin) that were derived from an Apple supplied design. So though possibly you were just trying to make a joke about Apple products really being "over-priced" ( :rolleyes: - sorry, but I am a believer in the free market) Samsung hardware with an Apple OS overlayed... that is so far from being the truth that I won't bother to do anything but assume that you were joking. You were joking, right? ;)

Say, on an intra-day trading basis, AAPL just became the most highly valued publicly traded company in history a few minutes ago. It just knocked Microsoft off the record that it set back in 1999: exceeding $618.9 billion. Being such a big fan of Apple, I know that must brighten your day. :D

[CaptainRaiden]

I am an Apple fan, but not to the extent that I buy every Apple product that ever comes out. I won't mention my wife again here on this thread and although you have now mentioned her more times than I have, I trust you will do the same.

Fine. But did I bring her into the debate? Nope. You did. Just like you did in the previous threads, even insinuating that I'm insulting her by insulting Apple products. WTF? It's that kind of oversensitivity that I'm talking about.


I also wasn't aware this was an 'anti Apple' thread. The title is asking a question and has a video of a load of geeks giving their personal opinions.

Hmm. A thread entitled "What did Apple actually invent?" really is a Steve Jobs worship thread. What a big Apple fan that Daniel is.


As for the rest of the post, I really don't have the time or patience to go through all of it. But I'll agree that these arguments are getting tedious.

[CaptainRaiden]

Now easy there big fellas.... you're nothing but annoying attachments to your money to all of them :laugh: ... no point in getting so worked up over some commercial products...

Exactly. While they're making billions, we're racking up forum posts taking from valuable work time making peanuts. :p

[CaptainRaiden]

If you were telling me your android phone had fantastic audio I'd believe you, sadly you're telling me its your iPhone so you must be biased and deluded!

Actually the OS has nothing to do with sound quality. An audio software or app can also maybe improve the sound at a maximum of 5%-10%. What sound really depends on is hardware. Since the A5 processors in Apple products are pretty much the exact same architecture as manufactured by Samsung, it would lead me to believe that Samsung have similar or even better sound processing on their SoCs. Onboard sound can only go so far, and so they would all sound pretty much similar. The remaining improvement can be achieved by app or headphones, but not by much, like I said above.

What would really make a huge difference is a sound card, just as in a PC. Smartphones don't have discreet sound chips yet, because it is not needed, and hence companies care feck-all about it and don't invest in them. So, I don't really understand how one smartphone can sound THAT much better than another one.

So, in this case, I'm afraid you're right that it's either delusion or bias. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

As for Jag and Malbec's long posts explaining all the financial and business mishmash, wow, thanks! And jeez, learn to take a joke!

I'll be the first to admit that my financial knowledge is lacking. But let me make it clear that I was in no way implying that Apple products are 100% Samsung hardware with a fancy OS. It was a figure of speech and meant more as a joke (hence the smiley after it) as a universal retort to people I've met who told me, with a straight face, that Apple hardware is much more reliable than that of Samsung's. :rolleyes:

This though doesn't change the fact that without Samsung's hardware, Apple would be in a pickle. They're already looking at replacement manufacturers in a hurry, because I assume that all these lawsuits would mean the two companies probably won't be doing further business after the current contract runs out. They still might because it's good business for Samsung.

Apple buys liquid crystal displays, microprocessors and NAND flash memory from Samsung, three components which are pretty much the crux of any smartphone or tablet hardware. The A5 SoCs for example are designed by Apple and fabricated by Samsung (the sole manufacturer) based on the ARM architecture. So, I'm correct in saying that every iPhone 4S is running a processor made by Samsung. Same goes for the 3rd generation iPad which uses a modified A5 processor, again made by Samsung.

Also, Apple rejected Sharp as the default LCD manufacturer for the iPad 3, and chose Samsung. So, again, am I correct in saying that every iPad 3 is running an LCD manufactured by Samsung?

Having said that, Apple may be sourcing flash memory from other manufacturers.

[CaptainRaiden]

Having posted all of that, I gotta say this will be it from me in this thread. As entertaining and a wonderful use of time it is :rolleyes: I got a very busy week followed by a well earned vacation. So, if you don't see me replying to your posts, just wait until the second week of September. :D

:wave:

[Malbec]

They still might because it's good business for Samsung.

Actually it is NOT good business for Samsung's component supplier business for it to be sued for patent theft by a close partner and customer especially if the accusations stick. In fact its a good business killer. Why buy from someone who will steal your technology to become a rival?


Apple buys liquid crystal displays, microprocessors and NAND flash memory from Samsung, three components which are pretty much the crux of any smartphone or tablet hardware. The A5 SoCs for example are designed by Apple and fabricated by Samsung (the sole manufacturer) based on the ARM architecture. So, I'm correct in saying that every iPhone 4S is running a processor made by Samsung. Same goes for the 3rd generation iPad which uses a modified A5 processor, again made by Samsung.

Also, Apple rejected Sharp as the default LCD manufacturer for the iPad 3, and chose Samsung. So, again, am I correct in saying that every iPad 3 is running an LCD manufactured by Samsung?

Having said that, Apple may be sourcing flash memory from other manufacturers.

I'm not questioning your comments about existing Apple products having a high Samsung content, however from what I have read the iPhone 5 has a much reduced Samsung content so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

[Malbec]

Actually the OS has nothing to do with sound quality. An audio software or app can also maybe improve the sound at a maximum of 5%-10%. What sound really depends on is hardware. Since the A5 processors in Apple products are pretty much the exact same architecture as manufactured by Samsung, it would lead me to believe that Samsung have similar or even better sound processing on their SoCs. Onboard sound can only go so far, and so they would all sound pretty much similar. The remaining improvement can be achieved by app or headphones, but not by much, like I said above.

What would really make a huge difference is a sound card, just as in a PC. Smartphones don't have discreet sound chips yet, because it is not needed, and hence companies care feck-all about it and don't invest in them. So, I don't really understand how one smartphone can sound THAT much better than another one.

So, in this case, I'm afraid you're right that it's either delusion or bias. ;)

I was being sarcastic about your inability to accept other peoples' opinions or personal choices as being legitimate.

I'm with Dave B on this, I fail to see how anything with an MP3 or AAC suffix and sound quality can be put in the same sentence with a straight face, especially with non-enclosed headphones.

It is interesting to see how you conclude that if an Apple and a Samsung have a similar architecture and components that it stands to reason that the Samsung must either be equal to or better than the Apple. Very rational thinking process there!

[GridGirl]

So I've read this thread from start to finish and got bored of the fan boi versus hater debate about three pages in. Then it occurred to me that Daniel started this thread to create the same old arguments and then ran for the Welsh hills laughing. Why did you guys fall hook, line and sinker for it? New angle but same opinions and arguments.

[CaptainRaiden]

Actually it is NOT good business for Samsung's component supplier business for it to be sued for patent theft by a close partner and customer especially if the accusations stick. In fact its a good business killer. Why buy from someone who will steal your technology to become a rival?

I was talking about good business purely from the money perspective. Apple is Samsung's biggest client.



I'm not questioning your comments about existing Apple products having a high Samsung content, however from what I have read the iPhone 5 has a much reduced Samsung content so I'm not sure where you're going with this.

I was retorting to Jag's comments. Didn't have time for selective quoting at the time of posting, but here you go:


You and I could both own iPhones of the same model (4S let's say), but the two devices may have a number of components from entirely different suppliers. The common thread would be that both devices would have components (of whatever origin) that were derived from an Apple supplied design.

Apple may source flash memory from elsewhere, but for a fact every iPhone 4S runs a Samsung manufactured A5 processor and LCD panels. So, the point about two 4S' having components from entirely different suppliers is wrong.

[CaptainRaiden]

I was being sarcastic about your inability to accept other peoples' opinions or personal choices as being legitimate.

My main gripe is and always has been Apple's ridiculous markup. People can buy whatever they want.


I'm with Dave B on this, I fail to see how anything with an MP3 or AAC suffix and sound quality can be put in the same sentence with a straight face, especially with non-enclosed headphones.

Hey, I agree with Dave B as well. People can't even tell the difference between lossless and lossy, FLAC and MP3 on the highest of high end sound processing hardware. But Pino's ears are definitely telling him something else. I even mentioned in my retort to him in the previous page that all smartphones will sound pretty much the same, unless they have a discreet sound chip. And buying a smartphone for its sound is like -- I don't even know what example to use!


It is interesting to see how you conclude that if an Apple and a Samsung have a similar architecture and components that it stands to reason that the Samsung must either be equal to or better than the Apple. Very rational thinking process there!

I assumed since Samsung fabricate the systems-on-a-chip processors for Apple, they are quite well versed with what kind of architecture Apple uses, and can surely do slightly better? They already did better in the graphics arena with the Galaxy S2, which again ran a processor and GPU unit built around similar ARM architecture, but beat the iPhone 4S when it came to playing high end games or streaming movies on a bigger screen, running a supposedly "slower" and glitchy Android OS. It stands to reason that they could surely do better with the sound chip too? And by better I mean maybe 5% better.

You can check up on audiophiles over the internet talking about the original Galaxy S' DAC to be the best in business still when it comes to playing music. That again is software based, so it can only go so far.

But that's just opinion. Fact is when it comes to listening to MP3 or even FLAC on smartphones, it's purely down to personal preference, and I'm aware of that. But claiming that the iPhone's sound is best in the market is quite far fetched.

[CaptainRaiden]

It is interesting to see how you conclude that if an Apple and a Samsung have a similar architecture and components that it stands to reason that the Samsung must either be equal to or better than the Apple. Very rational thinking process there!

So, I guess I was right about this too, again. When I listened to both iPhone 4S and Galaxy S3, the S3 sounded better to me. I have to work with sound cards for my work, so I can tell the quality difference also when playing FLAC. I bumped into this by accident. And yep, this proves that the Galaxy S3 has better sound quality, because it carries a discreet sound chip made by Wolfson.

The Samsung Galaxy S3 (http://www.droid-life.com/2012/06/26/the-samsung-galaxy-s3s-sound-is-indeed-powered-by-wolfsons-audio-chips/)

Samsung Galaxy S3 features a Wolfson audio chip, but not in North America (http://www.androidauthority.com/samsung-galaxy-s3-wolfson-audio-chip-97729/)

Whereas the iPhone 4S uses a codec, and has been even criticized for its sound and even deemed inferior to the older iPhone 4 when it comes to audio quality.

iPhone 4S audio chip ? (http://www.head-fi.org/t/575429/iphone-4s-audio-chip/45)

Apple iPhone 4s music audio quality in question. - CNET iPhones, iPods, and iPads Forums (http://forums.cnet.com/7723-12545_102-546177/apple-iphone-4s-music-audio-quality-in-question/)


Well, my work here is done. I guess I could have used 10 minutes to clear some things up. Back to work!

[odykas]

Finally, I managed to find a real Apple invention..... the one button mouse! http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6425.gif http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_3724.gif

http://www.bloggernews.net/wp/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/apple_one_button_mouse.jpg

No, Unix users! You don't need 3 buttons. http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_4205.gif
One button is enough http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_4293.gif

[ioan]

Just remembered this one:

Apple Introduces Revolutionary New Laptop With No Keyboard - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BnLbv6QYcA)

PS: It is just a joke, but a rather good one!

[Mark]

Apple may source flash memory from elsewhere, but for a fact every iPhone 4S runs a Samsung manufactured A5 processor and LCD panels. So, the point about two 4S' having components from entirely different suppliers is wrong.

It was merely an example, some components are from one manufacturer, some are from more. In any case the A5 is manufactured by Samsung, but with an Apple design based on components designed by ARM.

[CaptainRaiden]

I can only repeat what has been said many, many times on various threads. Apple have never set out to be like every other phone manufacturer by supplying products that everybody can have. Apple base their price around the software rather than the hardware and trust people are buying into their system rather than the pure product design. Millions of people buy their phones because they enjoy the simplicity of iOS and I dare say some enjoy having it because its an iPhone. That is natural with any brand including Samsung. A reputation has been built up and desirability is there and this isn't based on hardware alone as many point out. There is no other manufacturer that can offer iOS on a mobile phone which is why Apple have the ability to price their products higher and supply a percentage of the market that are willing to pay for what they believe is a very nice product. Samsung also produce very nice products and I am very happy with the 3 TV's, and microwave I presently own. The Samsung S3 is by far the best mobile phone presently on the market IMO and many people are buying it due to its decent spec and very affordable cost. Fantastic.

I'm not trying to convince you Apple produce anything as good as Samsung and I doubt you would listen to it. I suppose for the sake of keeping this thread on topic I would say Apple have invented the iPhone. A phone that pushed all other manufacturers to up their game and have forced the market to become very competitive. A phone that was the idea of Apple, like the car industry, components manufactured by many, but delivered and highly desirable. They've also forged opinions where people have chosen to be pro-Apple, anti Apple in there consumer choices or like me pretty open to anything as long as I enjoy using it. They've 'helped' invent the new age of mobile devices and the way it has headed. :)

I recently upgraded my PC with a new gen graphic card, a 3 terabyte hard drive and a 2 ms 24 inch monitor. ALL for less than the price of an iPad 3. So, no, as a person who knows what to do with his computers, IMO Apple's markup is ridiculous.

We can go around in circles and have long ass posts debating back and forth, but nobody's opinions are gonna change. So, why waste time? ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

It was merely an example, some components are from one manufacturer, some are from more.

Yes, but two iPhone 4S' cannot have processors and LCD panels built by two entirely different manufacturers. They are manufactured by Samsung. Apple also buys NAND flash memory from Samsung, a key component in every iPhone and iPad, which would lead me to believe every iPhone 4S also has flash memory made by Samsung.


In any case the A5 is manufactured by Samsung, but with an Apple design based on components designed by ARM.

I am not debating that.

[CaptainRaiden]

I didn't mean to come across as a fanboy


Spotted this on my morning read and thought it may be of interest here but am not suggesting value has anything to do with who is best amongst rivals etc:


BBC News - Apple becomes the most valuable company of all time (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19325913)

:laugh:

You know, henners, I have discussed these things with a lot of Apple "fanboys" over the years, and they all return to the argument of how much money Apple is making and how profitable their business is. At least they admit they are fanboys, just as I don't have a problem with being labeled a hater. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

I think the part you chose to bold is the operative part of your post. If its all about hardware for you and nothing else, then you are right. Lets face it, you will never attempt to try and see the perspective of somebody who doesn't neccessarily buy a product based on purely hardware so it really is a waste of time to discuss this further on that basis.

Oh boy, this is only going around in circles. :crazy:

One last time: No, it is not just about hardware for me. I believe Android is a better OS than Apple's iOS. And I also believe Windows 7 is a better OS than Mac OS X.

Since I like to upgrade my PC components regularly, I don't understand why Mac doesn't give me that option, for a higher price.

Since I like to play a lot of games on PC, Mac just doesn't make sense, because their library of developers is puny, again, for a higher price.

So, in any way, shape or form, Apple products DO NOT make sense to me, and so their markup will always be ridiculous for me.

If people like to buy them, good for them. Seriously, I don't care anymore. ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Anyway, regarding the current lawsuit battle between Apple and Samsung:

Did Apple Really (http://phandroid.com/2011/04/20/did-apple-really-steal-their-iphone-design-from-samsung-pot-meet-kettle/)

http://phandroid.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Samsungvs.Apple_-550x391.jpg


Take a look at this picture. Take a good look at it. On the right? an iPhone. (I’m not sure which revision, really.They all look the same to me.) On the left? Well that’s a little fellow from Samsung known as the Samsung F700. The image alleges that the phone was announced in 2006 and released in February 2007, but only the latter is fact. The iPhone was announced and released in 2007.

So that begs the question: who’s really stealing from who? (If you didn’t know, Samsung is being sued by Apple for the Galaxy S’ resemblance to the iPhone.) Samsung clearly had something going with this design way before they thought up the Samsung Galaxy S and before we even knew of the iPhone’s existence. And the user interface isn’t looking too much different form iOS, either. (If we’re just talking about grid-based layouts.)

The answer: no one is stealing from anyone. Apple didn’t invent icons, nor did they invent the grid in which they sit. They didn’t invent the rectangle. They didn’t invent the touchscreen. They surely didn’t invent the nice looking button sitting at the bottom. And last, but not least, they didn’t invent phones.

And all of the same applies to Samsung and any other OEM. This image should serve as a good reminder that with innovation comes imitation. A standard is always set and manufacturers will always look to meet or surpass that standard. Apple can’t go around suing everybody because their phone was the first one that looks like it to be successful. Fall back, Apple – you really have no case here. [Thanks, Suriv!]

PS: Feel free to use this as ammunition in your court battles, Samsung – we’re on your side.

[race aficionado]

The term "Apple fanboy" is so lame.
It just appeals to ridicule.
Either you like something or you don't.
And you can also like something a lot - or don't like something a lot.
What's the big deal?

[ArrowsFA1]

Anyway, regarding the current lawsuit battle between Apple and Samsung:
LOL @ PHOTO
Well spell checked
:laugh:

[schmenke]

... IMO Apple's markup is ridiculous.

Are you a holder of Apple shares? If so you would have access to their financial statements that specify their yearly net margins. Without this information you don't know what Apple's mark-ups really are.

[CaptainRaiden]

Are you a holder of Apple shares? If so you would have access to their financial statements that specify their yearly net margins. Without this information you don't know what Apple's mark-ups really are.

At the risk of repeating myself for the nth time on this topic:

A Dell XPS with Windows 7 - $999

A Macbook Pro with Mac OS X - $1799 (Inferior hardware compared to the Dell)

Source: Amazon.com

The Macbook is obviously lined with diamonds, right?

[ioan]

LOL @ PHOTO
Well spell checked
:laugh:

:rolleyes: Apple fanboy! :rolleyes:

What happened to the punctuation in your post? You forgot to check it? Just saying. :\

[ioan]

At the risk of repeating myself for the nth time on this topic:

A Dell XPS with Windows 7 - $999

A Macbook Pro with Mac OS X - $1799 (Inferior hardware compared to the Dell)

Source: Amazon.com

The Macbook is obviously lined with diamonds, right?

Who needs diamonds? For some people apples are more than enough! ;)

[Malbec]

Yes, but two iPhone 4S' cannot have processors and LCD panels built by two entirely different manufacturers. They are manufactured by Samsung. Apple also buys NAND flash memory from Samsung, a key component in every iPhone and iPad, which would lead me to believe every iPhone 4S also has flash memory made by Samsung.



I am not debating that.

Sorry to be pedantic but you do not KNOW this. As Jag has already pointed out there are supply contracts around where the design is not specified, all the supplier has to do is come up with enough items that fulfil the specification criteria and supply them. They do not have to be manufactured by the supplier unless this is specified in the contract.

Therefore its perfectly possible that the flash memory whilst supplied by Samsung may actually come from several different suppliers, possibly the same might go for the LCD although the processor is almost certainly Samsung produced only.

If you doubt this to be true Toyota took so damn long to reply to questioning about the sticking accelerator issue because they have several different suppliers manufacturing different pedal modules for the same cars. As long as they all fit in the same space and did the same job Toyota didn't care who made them until they had to trace back a potential fatal error and had to check exactly which company had manufactured the system that 'failed' (they didn't fail it turned out) in each car involved.

[Malbec]

My main gripe is and always has been Apple's ridiculous markup. People can buy whatever they want.

Then why dismiss Pino's choice and reasoning so out of hand?


But that's just opinion. Fact is when it comes to listening to MP3 or even FLAC on smartphones, it's purely down to personal preference, and I'm aware of that. But claiming that the iPhone's sound is best in the market is quite far fetched.

I don't think you quite understand that not everything can be objectively measured, certainly not sound quality.

I haven't compared an iPhone and a Samsung back to back for sound quality and I really couldn't care less either, however has it crossed your mind that an iPhone might be set up to have a different sound than the Samsung? If Pino is a classical and jazz man he may prefer a warmer setup. If he's more of a rock and dance man he'd probably go for a more upfront setup. Perhaps he compared several phones and preferred the iPhone setup to that of its alternatives? Maybe the iPhone plays Arcam to Samsung's Marantz?

BTW I had to laugh at the line about knowing about sound quality because you've had different soundcards, classic. Computers (Apple or PC) are utter trash when it comes to sound quality, only one better than phones.

[CaptainRaiden]

BTW I had to laugh at the line about knowing about sound quality because you've had different soundcards, classic. Computers (Apple or PC) are utter trash when it comes to sound quality, only one better than phones.

Are you saying that a discrete sound card is no better than an onboard chip?

[CaptainRaiden]

Therefore its perfectly possible that the flash memory whilst supplied by Samsung may actually come from several different suppliers, possibly the same might go for the LCD although the processor is almost certainly Samsung produced only.

Why are we repeating the same things? I already said Apple might source flash memory from elsewhere, but the processor is definitely Samsung made. Perhaps reading my posts before jumping to bash might help. As far as LCD panels go, that is debatable, and may have many suppliers, but from what I read about the iPhone, Samsung and Sharp were the two main manufacturers.

[CaptainRaiden]

Then why dismiss Pino's choice and reasoning so out of hand?

Hmm. So, he can opine that the iPhone has the best sound in the market, but I can't challenge that with my own opinion? WTF?


I don't think you quite understand that not everything can be objectively measured, certainly not sound quality.

I haven't compared an iPhone and a Samsung back to back for sound quality and I really couldn't care less either, however has it crossed your mind that an iPhone might be set up to have a different sound than the Samsung? If Pino is a classical and jazz man he may prefer a warmer setup. If he's more of a rock and dance man he'd probably go for a more upfront setup. Perhaps he compared several phones and preferred the iPhone setup to that of its alternatives? Maybe the iPhone plays Arcam to Samsung's Marantz?

So, if you haven't compared the two devices, what you're saying is pretty basic, bleeding obvious stuff, nothing special, and everybody knows that, or else every soul in the world will have the exact same audio equipment.

Bottom line is, discrete audio chips and sound cards provide better audio quality compared to onboard sound and that's a fact.

[odykas]

And I also believe Windows 7 is a better OS than Mac OS X.


It's difficult to decide which one is the worst OS :D

[CaptainRaiden]

I'd be interested to know why there is this obsession with pointing out that Samsung make parts for the iPhone/iPad. What is the point of stating this and how does this prove anything in this argument?

I can't think of a better company to outsource R&D to than Samsung and surely we should applaud both companies for producing such an amazing phone rather than trying to give sole credit to one in order to diminish the abilities of the other. It doesn't fool anybody.

*sigh* repeating an older post from me in this thread. I've had people tell me Apple hardware is better and more reliable than Samsung's. :rolleyes:

[Malbec]

Are you saying that a discrete sound card is no better than an onboard chip?

Nope

[Malbec]

Hmm. So, he can opine that the iPhone has the best sound in the market, but I can't challenge that with my own opinion? WTF?

You realise that when Pino bought his iPhone the S3 probably wasn't out on the market? Why then are you comparing the iPhone to the S3 to prove his choice wrong?

If you go through all the Apple threads you'll find a consistent pattern. People say certain Apple products happen to be the right product to meet their needs. Yet consistently you claim you know better than they do, that they are simply wrong and throw in a couple of insults for good measure. Frankly its almost autistic in the inability to grasp that other people have different priorities and standards to yours. Maybe when you get older you'll be able to understand this....

[Malbec]

Just found out my wife is pregnant so this whole debate has been put into perspective for me. I will probably end up with a crappy pay as you go phone and all this has been pie in the sky ha ha. I actually don't care and am off to have a glass of wine and wipe a few tears away!!! :D

Congratulations! Now that puts this silly debate into perspective. Fantastic news!

[BDunnell]

Frankly its almost autistic in the inability to grasp that other people have different priorities and standards to yours.

In that respect, not much different to some others one could name, who appear not to understand what seems disturbing about their behaviour.

Personally, it amazes me that a discussion such as this could go on so long. As you say, different people have different needs and tastes when it comes to buying products, no matter what they might be. What is the problem others have with this?

[BDunnell]

Just found out my wife is pregnant so this whole debate has been put into perspective for me. I will probably end up with a crappy pay as you go phone and all this has been pie in the sky ha ha. I actually don't care and am off to have a glass of wine and wipe a few tears away!!! :D

Very many congratulations to you both.

[ArrowsFA1]

Just found out my wife is pregnant so this whole debate has been put into perspective for me. I will probably end up with a crappy pay as you go phone and all this has been pie in the sky ha ha. I actually don't care and am off to have a glass of wine and wipe a few tears away!!! :D
Cheers henners. Many congratulations to you both.

[Mark]

You don't have to pay full price for an iPhone. After all there is someone who signs up for several accounts a day on the forums just to offer his special deals. I delete the posts just to keep the special offers to myself.

I ordered my iPhone 6 months ago; so it should be here any day now :erm:

[Mark]

Just found out my wife is pregnant so this whole debate has been put into perspective for me. I will probably end up with a crappy pay as you go phone and all this has been pie in the sky ha ha. I actually don't care and am off to have a glass of wine and wipe a few tears away!!! :D

I bought a 4S because we needed better quality pictures of the baby ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

Just found out my wife is pregnant so this whole debate has been put into perspective for me. I will probably end up with a crappy pay as you go phone and all this has been pie in the sky ha ha. I actually don't care and am off to have a glass of wine and wipe a few tears away!!! :D

Congrats to both of you! :)

[Mark]

The camera on the iPhone is very good and the video is much better quality than on my HTC. I do have a pretty decent Canon DSLR for the poser shots but an iPhone to capture all those mishaps and 'wind smiles' would be nice lol. :D

It's often said that the best camera is the one you have with you. And for babies this is certainty the case!

[CaptainRaiden]

You realise that when Pino bought his iPhone the S3 probably wasn't out on the market? Why then are you comparing the iPhone to the S3 to prove his choice wrong?

If you go back, you'll see I didn't compare it straight away to the Galaxy S3, but rather the DAC of the older Galaxy S, which had a Wolfson audio chip and came way before the 4S. Also, I mentioned the iPhone 4S wasn't considered even a top 5 music smartphone by any audiphile blog. Later was the discussion of Samsung hardware in Apple phones. But why would you pay attention to that in bash mode?


If you go through all the Apple threads you'll find a consistent pattern. People say certain Apple products happen to be the right product to meet their needs. Yet consistently you claim you know better than they do, that they are simply wrong and throw in a couple of insults for good measure. Frankly its almost autistic in the inability to grasp that other people have different priorities and standards to yours. Maybe when you get older you'll be able to understand this....

To be quite honest, you come off as quite a patronizing person. I have never told anybody here that the Apple product they bought is useless, neither have I criticized their purchase. I make sure to illustrate Apple solely for their ridiculous markup. While I have never insulted you in this thread, you make sure to keep throwing backhanded insults throughout. If you're personally butt-hurt by any anti-Apple remarks or feel bad about your purchase, it's your problem, not mine.

[Malbec]

It's often said that the best camera is the one you have with you. And for babies this is certainty the case!

Yep we got a good compact camera for the baby, my DSLR is never out in time to get the best shots. Nor is my video camera.

[CaptainRaiden]

Nope

So then how do you know what I'm talking about? Do you just post baseless tripe for the sake of it? You find something laughable without knowing what it's about?

A part of my job requires me to proofread/edit transcripts on my PC. Majority of the audio files are WAV. I have tried everything from Auzentech, the ASUS Xonar lineup and Creative's Recon sound cards. Each one of them made a HUGE difference in the sound quality. I finally decided on a Xonar.

One of my acquaintances runs a rock pub and blasts music at ridiculously high volume through a PC using the exact same sound card without losing a single ounce of clarity.

I'm not pretending to be an audiophile here, but any decent sound card with 7.1 speakers will make quite a sizable difference and it's far from being crap.

[Malbec]

If you go back, you'll see I didn't compare it straight away to the Galaxy S3, but rather the DAC of the older Galaxy S, which had a Wolfson audio chip and came way before the 4S. Also, I mentioned the iPhone 4S wasn't considered even a top 5 music smartphone by any audiphile blog. Later was the discussion of Samsung hardware in Apple phones. But why would you pay attention to that in bash mode?

My bad.


To be quite honest, you come off as quite a patronizing person. I have never told anybody here that the Apple product they bought is useless, neither have I criticized their purchase. I make sure to illustrate Apple solely for their ridiculous markup. While I have never insulted you in this thread, you make sure to keep throwing backhanded insults throughout. If you're personally butt-hurt by any anti-Apple remarks or feel bad about your purchase, it's your problem, not mine.

Maybe I'm patronising but perhaps you ought to ask yourself why the same criticism has been levelled at you from other posters too? Are they all patronising too?

I don't actually identify with my purchases. They aren't an extension of my personality or my ego. As I've stated previously I refuse to buy an iPhone because I disagree on principle with their business model. I don't particularly like Samsung either and I refuse to buy their products too. I still cannot for the life of me understand the point of a tablet regardless of brand.

I do take exception for being called dumb and ignorant by the likes of you for having purchased an Apple (this is a comment you made on the other Apple thread). Should I not have been?

[Malbec]

So then how do you know what I'm talking about? Do you just post baseless tripe for the sake of it? You find something laughable without knowing what it's about?

A part of my job requires me to proofread/edit transcripts on my PC. Majority of the audio files are WAV. I have tried everything from Auzentech, the ASUS Xonar lineup and Creative's Recon sound cards. Each one of them made a HUGE difference in the sound quality. I finally decided on a Xonar.

One of my acquaintances runs a rock pub and blasts music at ridiculously high volume through a PC using the exact same sound card without losing a single ounce of clarity.

I'm not pretending to be an audiophile here, but any decent sound card with 7.1 speakers will make quite a sizable difference and it's far from being crap.

I'm sure all your soundcards made a tremendous difference. As does upgrading from a £50 to a £100 sound system. Fact is the sound quality will still be crap.

I'm comparing to a properly setup hi-fi system. Even the lowest separates system will leave a PC behind when it comes to sound quality. Just go to a hi-fi store and take a proper listen. I suspect you'll revise your expectations.

[CaptainRaiden]

Personally, it amazes me that a discussion such as this could go on so long. As you say, different people have different needs and tastes when it comes to buying products, no matter what they might be. What is the problem others have with this?


Maybe I'm patronising but perhaps you ought to ask yourself why the same criticism has been levelled at you from other posters too? Are they all patronising too?

I don't understand how criticizing a company somehow is misconstrued as me criticizing their customers. This way there will be no room for any more discussion on a forum. If I'm criticizing Red Bull, I am not criticizing EVERY single person who drinks a Red Bull!


I do take exception for being called dumb and ignorant by the likes of you for having purchased an Apple (this is a comment you made on the other Apple thread). Should I not have been?

I don't think I ever generalized all Apple customers as being dumb or ignorant on this forum, only the ones that I've personally known as acquaintances or friends (the same folks who told me Apple hardware is better). I feel I've been very clear about this, and even mentioned who exactly in other threads, for ex. friend, acquaintance or a colleague.

[CaptainRaiden]

I'm sure all your soundcards made a tremendous difference. As does upgrading from a £50 to a £100 sound system. Fact is the sound quality will still be crap.

Again, I'm not claiming to be an audiophile, but a top of the line Auzentech, in my experience, has proven to be as good or at least very close to a Philips hi-fi system, i.e. playing the same song from the same audio CD side-by-side. Having said that, I have no idea where Philips stands in the hi-fi hierarchy.


I'm comparing to a properly setup hi-fi system. Even the lowest separates system will leave a PC behind when it comes to sound quality. Just go to a hi-fi store and take a proper listen. I suspect you'll revise your expectations.

Again, that's bleeding obvious and I'm quite aware of that. An add-on to a PC will never be good as a standalone system. Duh! The point I was making is that a discreet audio chip still makes things better, be it smartphone or PC.

[schmenke]

At the risk of repeating myself for the nth time on this topic:

A Dell XPS with Windows 7 - $999

A Macbook Pro with Mac OS X - $1799 (Inferior hardware compared to the Dell)

Source: Amazon.com

The Macbook is obviously lined with diamonds, right?

You can repeat all you want...
Those figures compare retail costs and provide no indication of corporate mark-ups.

[schmenke]

...The point I was making is that a discreet audio chip still makes things better, be it smartphone or PC.

Not to hijack this into an audio thread, but I’m not sure I agree.
As far as music is concerned, the chip is nothing more than the device that runs the algorithms that decodes digital audio files. The algorithms are identical as they are, more or less, industry standards (dobly, DTS, etc.).
A dedicated chip only ensures that audio decoding is processed independently from the main processors.

Sound quality is far more dependent on the quality of the speakers :mark:

[Malbec]

Again, I'm not claiming to be an audiophile, but a top of the line Auzentech, in my experience, has proven to be as good or at least very close to a Philips hi-fi system, i.e. playing the same song from the same audio CD side-by-side. Having said that, I have no idea where Philips stands in the hi-fi hierarchy.

As far as I am aware Philips produce mini/microsystems. These are not hi-fi. It does not take much to have sound quality as 'good' as a mini/microsystem. For the same cost a separates system will outperform most if not all mini/microsystems.

[CaptainRaiden]

Not to hijack this into an audio thread, but I’m not sure I agree.
As far as music is concerned, the chip is nothing more than the device that runs the algorithms that decodes digital audio files. The algorithms are identical as they are, more or less, industry standards (dobly, DTS, etc.).
A dedicated chip only ensures that audio decoding is processed independently from the main processors.

Sound quality is far more dependent on the quality of the speakers :mark:

Don't know about you, but with the exact same speakers, I heard a marked difference in sound quality with a Xonar. This is especially even more apparent at higher volume, as the output is sharper, clearer and much less distorted.

Like I have said before in this thread, I am not an audiophile and don't claim to know all the technicalities that go with it. Hell, I didn't even buy the sound card to listen to music. But both with headphones and speakers, I have definitely heard a big difference in the audio quality with a discrete sound card. And I'm talking right after installation, and then switching between the two through the playback devices option.

Or maybe the onboard sound on my mobo was mega crap to begin with. That's unlikely though as it's pretty new gen.

[CaptainRaiden]

You can repeat all you want...
Those figures compare retail costs and provide no indication of corporate mark-ups.

Well then, IMO Apple's retail prices are ridiculous.

[schmenke]

Don't know about you, but with the exact same speakers, I heard a marked difference in sound quality with a Xonar. This is especially even more apparent at higher volume, as the output is sharper, clearer and much less distorted.

Like I have said before in this thread, I am not an audiophile and don't claim to know all the technicalities that go with it. Hell, I didn't even buy the sound card to listen to music. But both with headphones and speakers, I have definitely heard a big difference in the audio quality with a discrete sound card. And I'm talking right after installation, and then switching between the two through the playback devices option.

Or maybe the onboard sound on my mobo was mega crap to begin with. That's unlikely though as it's pretty new gen.

Like I said, the processing algorithms decode a digital audio file into discrete channels, which the soundcard then amplifies and routes to the speakers.
It’s how (i.e. to what level) the soundcard amplifies each channel that makes the difference in what you’re hearing. The soundcard may also adjust and optimize the volume of a range of sounds which will affect what you hear (the combination of range/volume is adjusted via equalizer controls, if the soundcard, or supporting software, is equipped).

So yes, a soundcard will provide better quality audio, but it’s not necessarily the microprocessor that actually provides this.

(sorry, I did say I wouldn't hijack this thread... :uhoh: )

[airshifter]

I still don't think some people are getting it.

Most Apple users could probably care less what if anything Apple invented. The same applies for most Android phone users, regardless of brand. Some pages back Captain Raiden posted a link about audio quality, and my Droid Razr was a top 4 pick. Do you care? I certainly don't.... I've never hooks earbuds up to my phone and probably never will any time soon.

If I took the attitude of some on the forum, I should tell everyone what a bad decision they made on their phones because mine has better audio quality and was cheap too. But that would be pointless and juvenile, because I don't really care what any other user buys as long as they are happy with the decision.



Like I said pages ago, Apple invented internet haters, out on a mission to hate.

[Big Ben]

I'm pretty sure they didn't invent haters either. It's always fashionable to hate people, teams, companies or whatever that are doing well :p :. Add their a little cockiness and you'll have them ripping their clothes in fury :laugh: .

[CaptainRaiden]

Some pages back Captain Raiden posted a link about audio quality, and my Droid Razr was a top 4 pick. Do you care? I certainly don't.... I've never hooks earbuds up to my phone and probably never will any time soon.

People have REALLY got to start looking at what context the link was posted. Long story short: I replied to henners, Pino then replied to me, and then I replied to pino. I didn't post the link about audio quality just out of the blue. WTF? Go back, read, and then maybe you'll understand.

About criticizing Apple. Again, let's say I don't like how Peugeot design their cars or their business model, so I criticize the company. By doing that, I am NOT criticizing their customers. They can buy whatever they like, it's a free world. Where have I said in any of these threads that buying Apple products is a bad decision and you shouldn't do so? I wonder why people take it so personally.

[CaptainRaiden]

Like I said pages ago, Apple invented internet haters, out on a mission to hate.

And do you actually believe there's no reason for that "hate"? Are you so self-assured that Apple does absolutely nothing wrong and the haters are just out there on the troll highway?

A few pages ago henners posted that people who can't afford Apple products are the ones who hate Apple to make themselves feel better about it. That's a very naive and, pardon my language, stuck-up way of looking at it. I have seen people with 3 cars in their garage and full blown racing setups in their villas "hating" Apple products.

There is no other tech company that gets the same type of stick as Apple does, not even the small Chinese companies which make dodgy gadgets. The internet is full of communities and communities with these "haters" or "trolls" as you like to call them. What do you think? This is a hobby? That people just wake up, switch on their PCs and phones and just start spewing hate for no reason? Or is it a libel campaign by other manufacturers, as Steve Jobs liked to think?

Why do premium brands in automobiles like Ferrari, Lamborghini, Mercedes or Aston Martin not get the same amount of stick as Apple do? (I'm sure they do, but not to the global extent that Apple does.)

You have to understand a really simple distinction, which for some reason so many are mind-bogglingly incapable of grasping.

I can't afford a Ferrari or any of the aforementioned luxury cars, but do I dream of or desire them? Yes!

I can afford Apple products. Do I desire them? NO.

Do I not agree with their business model or understand how ridiculous their rates are? YES!

Am I allowed to post opinions about it on a discussion forum? Hell yes!

[CaptainRaiden]

Others may not agree with basing their opinions on cost and hardware and may choose an Apple product simply because they enjoy using them and fancy spending a bit more than some. Why should that bother you so much? It really is no big deal at the end of the day. You do say you have no problem with people buying Apple products, but its clear this isn't true by the amount of repeats we keep seeing. I know your stance and everybody who reads this thread knows your stance by now.

It's not a bit more, it's a lot more. But then again, have I ever told anybody on this forum that they shouldn't have bought their Apple products or that it's a bad investment? I'm merely sharing better alternatives. And sometimes a little inevitable slandering of Apple happens. I know you own a couple of Apple products, henners. Have I told you even once that you made a bad purchase?

Problem is people take the criticism directed towards Apple, personally, like somehow it's directed towards their own personal choices, when it's not. And this happens when they really have no answer to why Apple charge $800 more for inferior hardware. If people get this sensitive, then that is not really my problem.


This whole argument/debate could be attached to absolutely every single product on the market across multiple levels because there is always a more expensive/cheaper alternative. I could buy a pair of trainers for a tenner that will do the same job as a pair of Nike's for 10 times the price, but hey, I like certain brands and enjoy buying certain brands. This could be applied to electronics along with everything that has been stated here because consumer preferences will always be a major influence.

Again, like I said, the circle. Trainers are manufactured by separate brands using maybe similar material, but pressed, sown, designed, manufactured using their own technology.

Apple, as we know, sources similar hardware as PC, and put their OS (the superiority of which is subjective and not really proven to be any better), and are sold at almost 1.5 to 2 times the price. I don't agree with that, but I have come to not really give a flying rat's ass if people do.


ANYWHOO this I'm afraid will go in circles again, beating around the same bush with same tiring arguments with both parties. Henners, I'm sure you've got your hands full with better things to do, congrats again btw, and I too have to finish all my work before Saturday for a well deserved vacation. This is a useless distraction. So, I guess it's in better interest of everybody to let Apple and Samsung make their billions and for us to keep working like dogs and keep buying their products with our hard earned money. :p Enough from me on this topic, seriously this time!

[Malbec]

Again, like I said, the circle. Trainers are manufactured by separate brands using maybe similar material, but pressed, sown, designed, manufactured using their own technology.

The production of most trainers is outsourced to companies that again produce shoes for a wide variety of brands. They want you to think that they are technology intensive, however there is little differentiation between the rival products. However there has been widespread 'hate' (as you put it) for brands like Nike because some of their suppliers were found guilty in the past of using child labour.

What is interesting about the 'hate' against Apple is that the company doesn't really vary from the industry norm when it comes to ethics, political affiliations, environmental friendliness or any other marker of corporate behaviour. Its method of doing business sadly is little different IMO from other tech companies that have found themselves in such a position of dominance in a particular market, compare its use of iTunes for iPhone/iPod use with Microsoft's use of internet explorer back in the day. Yet Apple gets more criticism than probably all the other brands put together.

I could understand the criticism if Apple flattened rainforests for their factories, used child or prison labour, donated money to extreme political groups etc etc but they haven't any more or less than their rivals.

So if its not corporate behaviour that gets Apple this criticism it must be the product.

If it is the product that gets people so riled up that they spend time on forums attacking the company then all I can say is, get a life. Life is too short for this rubbish. Don't like it, don't buy it.

BTW you may not criticise Apple buyers directly but your extended argument has long been that Apple gets away with a high markup because their customers are ignorant and gullible. By extension Apple product owners are ignorant and gullible. Its this passive/aggressive rubbish of yours that people are pointing out.

[Malbec]

I could buy a pair of trainers for a tenner that will do the same job as a pair of Nike's for 10 times the price, but hey, I like certain brands and enjoy buying certain brands.

Better enjoy that while you can! ;)

[CaptainRaiden]

If it is the product that gets people so riled up that they spend time on forums attacking the company then all I can say is, get a life. Life is too short for this rubbish. Don't like it, don't buy it.

See, there's again the patronizing crap that I was talking about earlier. Why do you come to a discussion forum then? Can't tell me you haven't moaned about anything ever. Don't like what you're seeing in F1, change the channel or watch another sport. Don't agree with someone's opinion, close the tab. Stop complaining about the weather or your country's healthcare and economy on a forum. If it really bothers you, go out and do something about it. I believe if you really had a life, you wouldn't be spending hours at a forum arguing with a Apple hater for sure. ;)


BTW you may not criticise Apple buyers directly but your extended argument has long been that Apple gets away with a high markup because their customers are ignorant and gullible. By extension Apple product owners are ignorant and gullible. Its this passive/aggressive rubbish of yours that people are pointing out.

Like I said before, I didn't generalize all of them. Ignorant and gullible were the people I met personally, and I would call them ignorant and gullible even if they were PC users, and believe me, I have met a lot of them.

POS topic.

[CaptainRaiden]

I own one pair of running shoes and opt for Converse All Stars for my casual trainer. Nice and cheap and look good when I'm playing my Telecaster :)

OT but are you sure Converse All Stars are good for training? I wore them once for my regular cardio sessions and my feet hurt like hell. Couldn't wait to get back into my Asics gel. I'd suggest investing in something with a thicker sole if you don't wanna hurt your joints or have an acute injury.

[Malbec]

See, there's again the patronizing crap that I was talking about earlier. Why do you come to a discussion forum then? Can't tell me you haven't moaned about anything ever. Don't like what you're seeing in F1, change the channel or watch another sport. Don't agree with someone's opinion, close the tab. Stop complaining about the weather or your country's healthcare and economy on a forum. If it really bothers you, go out and do something about it. I believe if you really had a life, you wouldn't be spending hours at a forum arguing with a Apple hater for sure. ;)

I come to the forum to discuss. Sure I moan about some things, however I do not obsessively 'hate' (your words not mine) anything regardless of whether its a brand, a team or a particular driver. I find such obsession rather bizarre IMO. Its sad that some people are defined more about what they dislike than what they like.

[pino]

Show is over thanks everyone ;)