Red Bull - Biggest cheats in F1

[Garry Walker]

As you can see, no question mark there.

First we have the scandal with engine mapping at Germany.
Then we have Bieber trying to cheat Button out of a deserved 2nd place by an illegal overtaking move. When punished, helmet marko (the biggest cheat and jerk in f1) could only say that it is like death penalty for stealing a chicken. At least he admits they tried to cheat.
And finally we have this FIA drückt Auge zu: Red Bull kommt drei Mal davon - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/fia-drueckt-auge-zu-red-bull-kommt-drei-mal-davon-5305748.html)

Red Bull changed the ride height of their car manually at Canada between qualy and race, an offence for which they should have been DQ for.

Those are just the events from last week, in how many scandals have those cheats been in the last few years?

[kfzmeister]

After reading that article (and i speak German), it appears to me that RB have some legitimate complaints, yet they seem to balance out with the lenient way the FIA has approached certain violations ("If the FIA really had it out for RB, then they could have waited and disqualified RB after the Canadian GP for the front axle aero device")
I don't particularly think that RB are the only ones that exploit the regs. They are just very innovative and it shows with their recent titles....
I think "cheats" is a bit harsh.

[Dave B]

They've been caught exploiting the rules. Other teams have not been caught. ;)

[Zico]

I don't particularly think that RB are the only ones that exploit the regs. They are just very innovative and it shows with their recent titles....
I think "cheats" is a bit harsh.

100% agree, as an F1 car designer/engineer its part of Neweys job to find loopholes in the regulations that will offer performance advantages, he just seems to be better at it than the rest. If it was clear unarguable case of cheating directly against the regulations I think Garry might have a point but the fact that the FIA have had to amend the regulations says it all and just proves how innovative they are... not cheating in my book.

[jens]

I find the Red Bull situation intriguing. And certainly some events this year (related to rules and regulations) have caught attention. However, the difficult matter is, how should we evaluate them? It is easy to call them cheaters, but then again... they haven't been disqualified yet! Not even once! It is not like they are blatantly cheating, but they are going just as far as the loopholes possibly allow them to go, without getting DQ'd. So they are still playing by the rules - they are pushing the limits, but even RBR has the limits! They know, what they can do and what they can't without getting DQ'd.

This tells me that Red Bull Racing has got some extremely smart lawyers and engineers, who not only know the limits of rules, but know the limits beyond the rules as well. Bottom line - looks like RBR technical staff is simply smarter than FIA. And that's why they enjoy 'fooling' the governing body. Every time FIA has to concede "oh we are very sorry, we hadn't thought about this issue properly", while RBR had. And it is not like RBR is cheating and FIA hasn't caught them. They have, but conversely haven't managed to do anything about it! Well, except a "rule clarification".

Of course it is possible that one day RBR finally gets it slightly wrong and gets DQ'd. Thus far it is up to us to decide, what should we do here - hate RBR's "cheating" or enjoy their extreme genius. They are still playing by the rules, based on how vague the rules are...

[seppefan]

Red Bull are brilliant. Always pushing the boundaries, totally understanding the rules and seeing ways to find performance within them by finding the legal loophole. This is what F1 is all about. Pushing and seeking a different way that improves performance. Long should it last.

[gloomyDAY]

Make up your mind Garry! A couple of years ago you were complaining that the rules are too restrictive and allow zero innovation. Now Red Bull starts pommeling the competition for the past 2 years by their fair interpretations of the rules and you get all cranky. I'm not sure why you dislike Vettel so much, but it's his right to complain and have a reaction to the situations around him from time to time. I really like the guy because he's not some corporate zombie who nods and smiles all the time, but actually gives an opinion. As for Helmut Marko, we share the same view about that creep.

The issue in Canada was solved quietly because I think it was just a simple error by Red Bull. They adjusted a damper by hand and then the ride height was affected. I wouldn't have a problem if Red Bull were disqualified. I also don't think it was much of an advantage to Red Bull as well. They didn't dominate that weekend even though Vettel qualified in first, but didn't make a podium because of lack of pace.

[andyone]

im not a fun of RBR but for sure as it has been said. they are just too smart. but this year the title might not go there way.

[CNR]

Renault defends pushing F1 rules to limit with Red Bull (http://www.inautonews.com/renault-defends-pushing-f1-rules-to-limit-with-red-bull)


Interestingly, McLaren-Mercedes’ Jenson Button also appeared to justify Red Bull and Renault’s squeezing of the regulations, insisting the reigning champions are doing it well in every area of the car.
“We are so limited in terms of the regulations,” he said. “It gets more strict every year so you are always going to find people who are pushing the limits, pushing the boundaries


so what if the other teams had the same engine maps
Although the French marque also supplies identical V8 engines to Lotus, Williams and Caterham, Red Bull is regarded as Renault’s ‘works’ team

[Tazio]

Let's see what happens. They may have just done enough to really screw their chances at at least one of the championships. Maybe it is for the best. Perhaps this will finally persuade the FIA to "grow a set" and cut out all nebulous language within the framework of the rules. I realize that is probably just a pipe dream :(

[odykas]

They will keep on cheating as long they enjoy tolerance from FIA.

I disagree on the term "biggest" as this goes to another team / driver / era that we all know ;)

[Tazio]

Unless you are practiced at teleportation that belongs in F1 History ;)

[Knock-on]

Innovation is good but the rules on Parc Ferme are quite clear and however it's dressed up, changing the ride height after qualification without tools is not allowed. Similarly, blown engine mapping has been banned.

The FIA favour Red Bull because of the huge amount of revenue they pump into all forms of Motorsport and I think Vettel is a very acceptable face for them. However, we need to see if the new, Post Mad Max era has more integrity than the bad old days. At the moment, the similarity between the FIA / Vettel / Red Bull situation and the Schumy / Bennetton / Ferrari debarcle with the FIA is strinkingly similar.

As for the rrogance of Horner, Marco, Vettel, well, that's not cheating; merely classless.

[F1boat]

Red Bull are brilliant. Always pushing the boundaries, totally understanding the rules and seeing ways to find performance within them by finding the legal loophole. This is what F1 is all about. Pushing and seeking a different way that improves performance. Long should it last.
I agree with what you said completely :)

[donKey jote]

FIA officials taping up all suspicious holes on the Red Bulls :p

[Hawkmoon]

Horner is a ****er. When asked why, if the suspension can only be changed with tools, the Red Bull even had the option to do otherwise he tries to make out that it's no big deal, the FIA just "prefer" that tools be used. Article 34.5 of the Sporting Regulations: "In order that the scrutineers may be completely satisfied that no alterations have been made to the suspension systems or aerodynamic configuration of the car (with the exception of the front wing) whilst in post qualifying parc ferme, it must be clear from physical inspection that changes cannot be made without the use of tools." That's not "prefer the use of tools" Horner, that's only the use of tools. This guy seems to think everybody is an idiot.

Red Bull build functionality into their car that allows them to break the rules and we're supposed to just trust them that they didn't use it. :rolleyes:

[wedge]

There's a fine line between exploiting loopholes/pushing the envelope/against the spirit of the rules and cheating and blatantly transgressing the rules.

Apparently its a switch which alters the suspension. If true and more details emerge then RBR clearly are cheating. Unless RBR can prove that the tool happens to be Helmut Marko operating the switch.

[jens]

Innovation is good but the rules on Parc Ferme are quite clear and however it's dressed up, changing the ride height after qualification without tools is not allowed. Similarly, blown engine mapping has been banned.


Well, looks like the rules actually were not completely clear, because FIA had to clarify them after the issues. ;) If rules are clear, there is nothing to clarify, right?

Who knows, maybe there is still something vague and RBR soon finds another way...

It is easy to say "rule is easy - blown diffuser is banned", but in the technical and practical world of details it is very different. This is where engineering prowess comes to the fore and you can't ban something that hasn't been invented yet. You reach a new innovation and can effectively get around a ban.

This is also, where it can be said that engineers are smarter than the working group of technical regulations. Because you can't ban something you don't understand/know, while the engineer in the team might have an idea...

[Bagwan]

And , then there is the wording .
"Changes cannot be made without the use of tools" does not technically state the real intention of the statement .
In fact , one can interpret it as saying that you must use tools to make changes , thereby implying that changes , themselves , are permitted .
In this interpretation , it implies that having a device with , say , a handle for adjusting ride height would be prohibitted .

It , for sure , is a bit of a stretch , but it , too , is a logical interpretation of the wording .

[N4D13]

I heard today that there is a rumour on the paddock, according to which, a Red Bull mechanic was found with a monkey wrench during a FIA inspection when he was supposed to be cleaning the car. However, no action was taken as he wasn't caught doing anything special to the car - he just happened to have a monkey wrench. Now, whether this is true or just a badly intentioned rumour, I don't know.

[steveaki13]

Track limits are often debatable. i.e here in Hungary we have seen some drivers running wider and wider and there were no penalties. Although most did lose time rather than gain it.

Cheating is tough to call that clearly at times, look at the chicane at the top of the hill at Imola. Every driver would launch over those kerbs taking more and more speed through and putting more and more of there car off the track.

What I am trying to say is that it that situation every driver will "cheat" as much as they can to gain advantage by cutting the corner. The fia put high kerbs in place to stop the drivers doing that, but its the same everywhere. At turn 5 or 6 at Budapest they have for years run wider and more off the track to gain illegal time.

It is a different case in the Seb case. But as I posted on page one of another thread, they need to put gravel or grass back there in order to stop this. Because as I post also we have seen 2 or 3 same moves in years past. Sebs was no different to Schumachers at the same corner in 2003.

[steveaki13]

Here it is again. Look at 2:40-2:45 ish and see Michael pull a very similar move. So really Seb is no different to others it the past. I have seen a few moves like this over the years.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbFQKuFkrQ

[rjbetty]

But as I posted on page one of another thread, they need to put gravel or grass back there in order to stop this. Because as I post also we have seen 2 or 3 same moves in years past. Sebs was no different to Schumachers at the same corner in 2003.

OMGosh I totally agree with this. I don't at all like the super-reliability these days, but if there's one thing I detest it's all the run-offs that don't punish mistake.! Grosjean has provided a blast to the past for me recently by first of all actually retiring from a strong position in Valencia, and then following that up in Silverstone - the sight of his Lotus beached in a gravel trap in qualifying evoked memories of the times when I really first started getting into F1 in the late 90s!

The other main reason Caterham and Marussia are struggling to reach the points is that when drivers ahead make mistakes and go off, they simply drive back on the track and continue, as you do on the PS2! (or 3!)

======================

I want to balance this post out with a bit of positivity: At least they don't normally have race restarts now! Remember those? A bunch of cars get wiped out in a collision (sp?) that's their own fault, the race is restarted, they jump in their spare cars and line up on the grid and get another chance. Oh that wound me up! :)

EDIT: With the benefit of hindsight, I deduce I have caused this topic to go off-track. At least it can use all the run-off to rejoin. :)

[Garry Walker]

I find the Red Bull situation intriguing. And certainly some events this year (related to rules and regulations) have caught attention. However, the difficult matter is, how should we evaluate them? It is easy to call them cheaters, but then again... they haven't been disqualified yet! Not even once! It is not like they are blatantly cheating, but they are going just as far as the loopholes possibly allow them to go, without getting DQ'd. So they are still playing by the rules - they are pushing the limits, but even RBR has the limits! They know, what they can do and what they can't without getting DQ'd.
Well, according to what I understand they could have easily been DQ for breaking the parc ferme rules, even without the clarification by FIA.



Make up your mind Garry! A couple of years ago you were complaining that the rules are too restrictive and allow zero innovation. Now Red Bull starts pommeling the competition for the past 2 years by their fair interpretations of the rules and you get all cranky. I'm not sure why you dislike Vettel so much, but it's his right to complain and have a reaction to the situations around him from time to time. I really like the guy because he's not some corporate zombie who nods and smiles all the time, but actually gives an opinion. As for Helmut Marko, we share the same view about that creep. Bieber is the most fake athlete I know, arrogant to the extreme and overrated even more.



The issue in Canada was solved quietly because I think it was just a simple error by Red Bull. They adjusted a damper by hand and then the ride height was affected. I wouldn't have a problem if Red Bull were disqualified. . Don't be so naive.




As for the rrogance of Horner, Marco, Vettel, well, that's not cheating; merely classless.I never said it was cheating, just merely used the opportunity to launch an attack on them :D .

[Dave B]

Here it is again. Look at 2:40-2:45 ish and see Michael pull a very similar move. So really Seb is no different to others it the past. I have seen a few moves like this over the years.
Which is why the rules have been clarified to clearly state that if you leave the track, you can only rejoin if you do so safely and without gaining an advantage. It's not rocket salad....

[F1boat]

Bieber is the most fake athlete I know, arrogant to the extreme and overrated even more.


I am less familiar with teen idols than you and unfortunately can not say anything about the character of that singer.
On a more serious note, I think that Lewis is by far more arrogant than Seb. But I guess that this is a matter of personal bias as well ;)

[Knock-on]

Well, looks like the rules actually were not completely clear, because FIA had to clarify them after the issues. ;) If rules are clear, there is nothing to clarify, right?



The rules on ride height are unambiguous. You cannot alter the suspension settings in Parc Ferme without using tools and incurring the associated penalty.

Red bull had a switch that allowed them to do this.

Now, I'm sure Red Bulls*%t will claim that just because the ability was there, doesn't mean they used it :rolleyes: (sounds familiar doesn't it). However, their qualifying pace wasn't as strong as in the last couple of meetings ;) Coincidence non?

[gloomyDAY]

Looks like the matter is resolved. FIA made sure Red Bull wouldn't "interpret" the rules in their own fashion.


Bieber is the most fake athlete I know, arrogant to the extreme and overrated even more.Okay, if you think Vettel is arrogant and you don't like him, then that's cool. Overrated? Youngest and double WDC. :D

[F1boat]

Overrated? Youngest and double WDC. :D

:D

[A FONDO]

Bieber is the most fake athlete I know, arrogant to the extreme and overrated even more.

I agree but not for athlete at all, just F1 driver. Thank God F1 officials know what is good for the sport and cut the wings of his illegal car.

[airshifter]

Track limits are often debatable. i.e here in Hungary we have seen some drivers running wider and wider and there were no penalties. Although most did lose time rather than gain it.

Cheating is tough to call that clearly at times, look at the chicane at the top of the hill at Imola. Every driver would launch over those kerbs taking more and more speed through and putting more and more of there car off the track.

What I am trying to say is that it that situation every driver will "cheat" as much as they can to gain advantage by cutting the corner. The fia put high kerbs in place to stop the drivers doing that, but its the same everywhere. At turn 5 or 6 at Budapest they have for years run wider and more off the track to gain illegal time.

It is a different case in the Seb case. But as I posted on page one of another thread, they need to put gravel or grass back there in order to stop this. Because as I post also we have seen 2 or 3 same moves in years past. Sebs was no different to Schumachers at the same corner in 2003.

This brings up a great point that seems to be overlooked. When a pass is made off track people are up in arms and to that point I can agree. But really any time a driver leaves the track by intentionally taking a wide line they are gaining advantage in the form of time. In Hungary there were a lot of cars going four wheels off track at various corners.

Alonso's pole lap in Germany was made on a lap where his car clearly went all four wheels off track on the final corner. Yet the lap counted. Food for thought.




As for the ride height issues, I haven't seen that much about it. I know on the Speed coverage they mentioned that the RB system really isn't different then that of several other teams, yet nobody is crying about the "several other teams". The nature of the sport is to be more critical of cars doing well.

[donKey jote]

Alonso's pole lap in Germany was made on a lap where his car clearly went all four wheels off track on the final corner. Yet the lap counted. Food for thought.

As was Vettel's fastest lap in Hungary, but I agree :)

[airshifter]

As was Vettel's fastest lap in Hungary, but I agree :) Vettel and several others in Hungary I think. But the rule should exist all the time IMO.

[donKey jote]

It would certainly be easier to apply consistently, as otherwise you need to prove an advantage...

[kfzmeister]

Isn't this a bit self incriminating?


...
"We have never made adjustments by hand," he is quoted by Germany's Auto Motor und Sport.
"I don't know why the others get so upset -- we happen to know that Ferrari used something like that for a year," Marko said.
Ferrari also had hand-adjuster - Marko | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-also-had-hand-adjuster-marko/)

[airshifter]

Isn't this a bit self incriminating?


Ferrari also had hand-adjuster - Marko | News | Motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ferrari-also-had-hand-adjuster-marko/)

I don't see how that incriminates anyone myself. It was mentioned during the race coverage on SpeedTV that other teams on the grid might still currently have the same system as RB that require no tools to adjust ride height. I really don't see the issue unless the FIA has evidence that someone actually changed the ride height on a car, and really can't see why they have to change it. If the FIA wants to make sure the knob isn't moved, they can plant a sticker type seal on it like they do so many other things.

[kfzmeister]

If the FIA wants to make sure the knob isn't moved, they can plant a sticker type seal on it like they do so many other things.

..or have them remove everything that remotely looks like something that can be simply adjusted by hand! :)
And aren't Marko's remarks just about like saying: "They were doing it, too"? That's what i meant by self incriminating.

[nigelred5]

Adrian Newey is smarter than the FIA technical committee. They are masterful at interpreting the regs and designing around them. So are most of the top designers. Take your pick, Redbull is just the latest to have the target pasted to their chest. How long was it that Ferrari were the "Cheats"? Benneton/Renault? McLaren? Lotus? Tyrell? as long as there are regulations at curbing speed, technology and cost, there will be someone smart enough to find a way around them.... If they weren't, F1 would be boring as all hell.

[nigelred5]

I don't see how that incriminates anyone myself. It was mentioned during the race coverage on SpeedTV that other teams on the grid might still currently have the same system as RB that require no tools to adjust ride height. I really don't see the issue unless the FIA has evidence that someone actually changed the ride height on a car, and really can't see why they have to change it. If the FIA wants to make sure the knob isn't moved, they can plant a sticker type seal on it like they do so many other things.

Exactly. Prove they actually changed the ride height. Every car has adjustable ride height. If I'm as limited on testing as F1 teams are, when I do have hte opportunity to test and I'm ALLOWED to adjust ride height, i'd want it to be as easy as possible, without tools. That is like saying you have to put your spark plugs INSIDE the engine to ensure you can't change them easily.

[kfzmeister]

If I'm as limited on testing as F1 teams are, when I do have hte opportunity to test and I'm ALLOWED to adjust ride height, i'd want it to be as easy as possible, without tools.

Regs stipulate that it be adjustable only with tools.

[ArrowsFA1]

Regs stipulate that it be adjustable only with tools.
Define tools. Could it be the nut behind the wheel? :p

[kfzmeister]

Define tools. Could it be the nut behind the wheel? :p

Here's a picture of a definite tool! 2990

[nigelred5]

Here's a picture of a definite tool! 2990

lol.

[Garry Walker]

I am less familiar with teen idols than you and unfortunately can not say anything about the character of that singer.
He is a singer? I didn't know that. It appears you know quite a bit about teen idols, clearly more so than me.



Okay, if you think Vettel is arrogant and you don't like him, then that's cool. Overrated? Youngest and double WDC. :D

Considering for how long he has had the best car, it is almost embarrassing he only has two titles.

[Mia 01]

I remember a 100 million fine some years ago.

[Zico]

Considering for how long he has had the best car, it is almost embarrassing he only has two titles.

Garry, you are entitled to your opinion but I dont think anyone else on here shares it. Im no Vettel fan but even if he did have the best car for his two WDC's, he did the job and he did it well. I dont think he deserves such contempt.

[airshifter]

Garry, you are entitled to your opinion but I dont think anyone else on here shares it. Im no Vettel fan but even if he did have the best car for his two WDC's, he did the job and he did it well. I dont think he deserves such contempt.

Haters will hate, and not much will change that. And evidence of the dominant car shows in all the WDC titles Vettel and Webber have won. Oops... according to conspiracy theory Webber doesn't get a good car. Can't you see the logic in only providing one good car per team? :laugh:

[kfzmeister]

Oops... according to conspiracy theory Webber doesn't get a good car.

Sometimes he does get some good parts put on his car........by accident. :eek:

[airshifter]

Sometimes he does get some good parts put on his car........by accident. :eek:

Ahhh.... that explains the occasional great performance. They get the cars mixed up and give Mark the "winning cheater" car!

[kfzmeister]

Ahhh.... that explains the occasional great performance. They get the cars mixed up and give Mark the "winning cheater" car!

Last year, for sure. They must have backed off this year in fear of being exposed. He's actually doing rather well. :D

[Garry Walker]

Garry, you are entitled to your opinion but I dont think anyone else on here shares it. Im no Vettel fan but even if he did have the best car for his two WDC's, he did the job and he did it well. I dont think he deserves such contempt.

Even if he had the best car? He has had the best and fastest car since about the one third mark of the 2009 season.

[wedge]

Even if he had the best car? He has had the best and fastest car since about the one third mark of the 2009 season.

It's debatable whether Vettel should have won WDC that year.

For sure there were moments of immaturity/trying too hard as in Australia, Monaco and Singapore, though the biggest criticism IMO would be whether Vettel could (decisively) overtake and there were moments when RBR looked strategically inept.

Good example would be that year's Turkish GP where it looked possible to overtake Button and when Vettel chickened out RBR should have changed to a 2-stopper instead of continuing with a 3-stopper.