Which is the best car out there?

[Rollo]

I found this comment in another thread, I think that it is worth a whole topic on its own.


And let's forget he (Alonso)* is not driving the best car on the track.
* not in the original comment, added for clarity

Apart from Maldonado's win in Spain which I think is an aborration, all other races have been won by four teams.
I think that in order that the best drivers out there are Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Räikkönen, Rosberg, Webber and Kobayashi. This has to be taken into account.

I suggest that the best car out there is the Mercedes, but that Rosberg isn't quite the best driver and Schumacher who apart from having 4 retirements is past it anyway. This means that the Ferrari is probably the second best car, followed by the Red Bull and the McLaren at four.
I think that Webber and Vettel are currently able to drive a little around the "deficiencies" in the Red Bull and that the McLaren isn't quite there.

So I concur that whilst Alonso is not driving the best car on the track, it's not to say that it's a total pig either; it is after all really quite good if it's delivered 6 podiums.

[wedge]

What do you mean by best?

In terms of raw speed it has ebbed and flowed all year between, IMHO, McLaren and RBR but RBR edges it as McLaren's Achilles heel is the rain/inters

Alonso has picked up the pieces with consistency to top WDC, not to mention Ferrari is an all round car that suits different conditions.

I can't see how you can say MGP is best car. Still has a problem from last year eating up its tyres. On a single lap they can give the top 3 teams a hard time but for race? Forget it unless its really cool conditions as in China & Monaco.

[i_max2k2]

I suggest that the best car out there is the Mercedes, but that Rosberg isn't quite the best driver and Schumacher who apart from having 4 retirements is past it anyway.

Rollo, could you please pm me what your on? jk :) , mercedes in my opinion on an avg is the 4th best car.

As for the best car, I'd say Ferrari & Red Bull share that space, it seemed at least in the beginning of the season, they both needed some serious tweaks to get the car to work. Mclaren started pretty balanced but they have slowed in in-season development. Lotus is pretty decent as well it and if they were not doing so bad in quali they probably be leading both

Mercedes is good only in a very small window, and we only see that happen once in a while.

[Tazio]

What do you mean by best?

In terms of raw speed it has ebbed and flowed all year between, IMHO, McLaren and RBR but RBR edges it as McLaren's Achilles heel is the rain/inters

Alonso has picked up the pieces with consistency to top WDC, not to mention Ferrari is an all round car that suits different conditions.

I can't see how you can say MGP is best car. Still has a problem from last year eating up its tyres. On a single lap they can give the top 3 teams a hard time but for race? Forget it unless its really cool conditions as in China & Monaco.

Well stated Wedge! :up: and a difficult question Rollo. From the horses mouth:

Mercedes motorsport boss Norbert Haug insists that the team needs to find half a second to match the pace of the F1 front-runners if it wants to win again this season.//
"The last two races have shown that we currently lack around half a second a lap to the pace-setters. This is clear to all in the team and we'll be doing our maximum to develop the car further and close the gap."
Mercedes 'half a second off the pace' | F1 News | Jul 2012 | Crash.Net (http://www.crash.net/f1/news/182280/1/mercedes_half_a_second_off_the_pace.html?utm_sourc e=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=rss)
That is not to say they are not "Fast" Their DDRS is very useful in quali but in race trim serves very little useful purpose. Plus they are prone to very rapid tire wear especially on their rears. McLaren and RED Bull are currently huge question marks as the former has just had their engine map cheating device banned, and McLaren have not had enough dry running with their latest developments, but both are at or near the top. Williams aberration is that they don't have a Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, or Raik' behind the wheel, otherwise they have great pace. Lotus and Ferrari are also in a group at the top, The distinction I draw is that up until now Red Bull, Ferrari, Williams, and Sauber seem to be less "temperature window" dependant on turning their tires on without overcooking them. McLaren has been lagging a little in that department. Lotus seems best suited to hot track temps or at least tracks with high speed corners that generate heat with tire load.
My short answer is that it is really dependant on the characteristics of each track, when assessing the cars alone without considering driver input. Here is graphed performance as positioned by results - track temp you might find interesting:

http://f.cl.ly/items/3Y2C462R35142n0e0w3F/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-22%20at%2015.57.53.png
http://f.cl.ly/items/0U29413T3n2c35332a14/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-22%20at%2015.58.25.png
http://f.cl.ly/items/0U29413T3n2c35332a14/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-22%20at%2015.58.52.png
http://f.cl.ly/items/0U29413T3n2c35332a14/Screen%20Shot%202012-07-22%20at%2015.59.14.png

[donKey jote]

only .5 sec? All theyd need is to ditch the Schu and replace him with Alonso :andrea: :p

[DexDexter]

IMO Red Bull is the best all-round car (based on the amount of points they've scored), followed by Ferrari (works in all conditions, different tracks) . Mclaren is quick and slow, you never know what kind of weekend they will have. Lotus has pace on certain tires and hot ambient temperatures. Sauber and Williams are also quick but they don't have top drivers. Mercedes doesn't really have race pace.

[truefan72]

IMO Red Bull is the best all-round car (based on the amount of points they've scored), followed by Ferrari (works in all conditions, different tracks) . Mclaren is quick and slow, you never know what kind of weekend they will have. Lotus has pace on certain tires and hot ambient temperatures. Sauber and Williams are also quick but they don't have top drivers. Mercedes doesn't really have race pace.

hmm, perhaps you should reconsider, now that we know they were running illegal cars for the first 10 races

[DexDexter]

hmm, perhaps you should reconsider, now that we know they were running illegal cars for the first 10 races

I don't know, I have a feeling you're going to see a Red Bull on pole in Hungary.

[driveace]

Red Bull is the fastest car out there ,and if only they would stop cheating (holes in floor,engine mapping,and what ever next) we may see how fast the car really is .Overall the best car and the one to beat is the Car from Marinello,i dont just think that it is down to Alonso being able to peddle it well,i think they are dark horses,and have more in reserve than we all think !

[ArrowsFA1]

How can anyone say definitively which car is the best/fastest?

There are too many variables.

[truefan72]

I think it changes from week to week IMO
first 2 race weekends mclaren looked like runaway champs,
then, although not winning, it was clear on some weekend that the lotus was the best car out there
Mercedes, rose up, won china and seemed like a race winner for a few races (who knows if MSC would have won monaco)
RBR looked like champs in a few races
Ferrari were dogs in the first 7 races, even though they won malaysia, but now look like the car to beat
Sauber is always lurking around the corner and if perez had kept his cool, could have won malaysia
As is the Williams, who won Spain hands down and were the best car. In Valencia (spain again) maldonado and that car were charging up the grid and before his crash, seemed like the best car that day

Despite my disappointment with the macs, I will admit that this uncertainty sure makes the races interesting
The only thing I know for sure is that the HRT and Marussia are clearly the worst

Every other team save caterham, has qualified in the top 10 at some point

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I think we should have a race between the cars to find out. :)

[truefan72]

Williams aberration is that they don't have a Hamilton, Vettel, Alonso, or Raik' behind the wheel, otherwise they have great pace.
:up:
LOL a truer statement has never been made
reminds me of the years when clearly Toyota had a race winning car only to be foiled by their average drivers.
I used to rate Ralf highly, and he had some stellar performances with williams. But he was an absolute dog with the big contract at toyota
and don't get me started with trulli. (and glock to a lesser part)
That car should have won a few races in 2009. They along with Brawn had a huge advantage earlier on.

[zako85]

In my opinion, Mercedes, Lotus, and McLaren were fastest cars only at the beginning of this year. However, it seems like they did not quite keep up with Ferrari's and RBRs development through the first half of year. Having said this, I would not jump to say that Ferrari is definitely the fastest car right now. Alonso qualified and run well the last two races, but to say that Ferrari is certainly the fastest car, I would like to see how his car performs relative to competition on a truly dry weekend. Some of recent Ferrari qualifying prowess as well as their first win this year could be attributed to Alonso's skill to drive in changing conditions. At the same time, I never really bought the idea that Alonso can supposedly make the car lap faster than it really is. The justification was that Massa's car was always much slower. However, it is clear that during the last two years, Massa has not been a good yardstick for measuring the raw speed of the car. The truth is probably somewhere in between. Ferrari may or may not be the fastest car, but it definitely has a good pace. And Alonso is a very good and consistent driver.

[Tazio]

I don't know, I have a feeling you're going to see a Red Bull on pole in Hungary.I believe that is a distinct possibility, but I can't help thinking that losing their low end torque advantage, and the loss of exhaust acceleration over the components while off throttle may unbalance the car and cause less efficient acceleration out of lower speed corners and more sliding through high speed corners with wheel spin that may cause added tire wear that wasn't a problem with their previous engine maping tweaks. This is just speculation, and even if true they may be able to compensate by a change in gearing, and suspension/rake adjustments. Plus the entire package works well aerodynamically, and the loss may be only minimal.
One thing I didn't mention is that what was thought to be Ferraris biggest design flaw may actually have turned into a substantial asset. Their front end pull rod suspension and its soft ride, improved aero flow, and lower CoG combined with improved exhaust/diffuser sealing at the rear end, as well as improved front wing efficiency allows them to run more rake (not as much as Red Bull) and this is IMconsideredO starting to pay dividends. Even Massa is more comfortable with the balance.

[Hawkmoon]

I think you can treat fast and best as being two close, but distinctly separate categories.

Fastest Car:
1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Ferrari
4. Lotus
5. Mercedes

Best Car:
1. Ferrari
2. Red Bull
3. McLaren
4. Sauber
5. Lotus

I think the Red Bull is the fastest car over a single lap on any given circuit but the Ferrari is the best car over many different circuits and track conditions. The Sauber isn't a great single lap car, nor is the Lotus, but both a great race cars that allow their drivers perform well on Sundays. The McLaren and the Red Bull are very quick over a lap but seem to have a smaller optimum performance window come race day.

I think if you had to pick a car, based on current form, you'd have to pick the Ferrari as it is close enough on Saturdays and very good on Sundays.

[F1boat]

I think that it depends on the track. In some races McLaren are fastest, in others the Red Bull. Ferrari is clearly a very good and reliable car too. The Lotus is above average, while the Merc is quite inconsistent.

[jens]

I guess over the full season so far Red Bull has been the most consisent car. From what I can recall, they have been in top4 at every circuit so far. In terms of consistency next one has been Lotus, who have had only a couple off-weekends. Since Spain Ferrari has been very consistent. But in terms of peak performance many teams can be at the very sharp end of the field on the right weekend.

[markabilly]

only .5 sec? All theyd need is to ditch the Schu and replace him with Alonso :andrea: :p

no way---ditch rosberg and Norberg (the latter should considerably lighten the load) and get Todt back to run the team, with MS in charge of "final approval" ala ferrari.....and add $$500,000,000 to their budget :bounce:

[donKey jote]

hey Billy's back! :D
Yer missus says hi :wave:

[markabilly]

I think that it depends on the track. In some races McLaren are fastest, in others the Red Bull. Ferrari is clearly a very good and reliable car too. The Lotus is above average, while the Merc is quite inconsistent.



I think close to being right


The best car??

Answer is simple-whichever car is lucky enough to get the right set of tires for the particular car particular driver and particular track.........

Actually, I think the most important factor is the tires given to each team. The tires are inconsistent, respond to different tracks in different ways, such that the cars are not consistent in performance from race to race or even from one set of tires to the next set on the same track.

The tires/car/track go from :love: to :arrows:


Best example-what driver/car went from no where, to an absolutely kick-butt, stomp the field, win?

Hint: and went back to almost nowhere..........................................

[markabilly]

:s mokin:
hey Billy's back! :D
Yer missus says hi :wave:

as soon as i finish in another hour or so, your momma will say hi......after she clears her throat :s mokin:

[donKey jote]

:laugh: :bandit: :D

[F1boat]

Today McLaren were the best. I hope that Red Bull and Ferrari can strike back.

[steveaki13]

Lotus weren't far off either here, be interesting to see what happens on F1's return from holiday at Spa. A very different circuit.

[Garry Walker]

Today McLaren were the best. I hope that Red Bull and Ferrari can strike back.

Yesterday they were. Today Red Bull was better and probably Lotus too. But overall, the best car of the week was Red Bull.

[F1boat]

Yesterday they were. Today Red Bull was better and probably Lotus too. But overall, the best car of the week was Red Bull.

We have to agree to disagree here. I think that the Red Bull was very mediocre yesterday and today.

[wedge]

Yesterday they were. Today Red Bull was better and probably Lotus too. But overall, the best car of the week was Red Bull.

I'm not so sure. Was Vettel doing 1m26s knowing a pit stop was coming and going for a 3 stopper?

I'd say Lotus had the best car today.

[driveace]

Lotus had definetley the better car today,and got its two drivers on the podium,and Hamilton had or did a good job of holding off Grosjean early in the race cos the Lotus had some real pace .

[F1boat]

But not in qualy and here overtaking is impossible. McLaren were the best this weekend - well done for the boys in Walking.

[ArrowsFA1]

Car of the day was the Lotault (still can't call it a Lotus!). Another missed opportunity.

[Mia 01]

MacLaren!!

[jens]

Car of the day was the Lotault (still can't call it a Lotus!). Another missed opportunity.

Surely qualifying hampers Lotus. Despite a lot of podiums already, Räikkönen hasn't qualified higher than 5th (4th on the grid in China after Hamilton's penalty) this season. If he could get to the front on Saturdays, he could win. Reminds a bit of 2008, when grid positions prevented Kimi from having a more successful season. But who knows, maybe he can win the WDC without a race win. :p :

[donKey jote]

qualifying, and their pit stops are slooooow

[Knock-on]

OK, lets try and put a bit of logic behing the hocus-pocus of guesswork.

Fastest car out there was Red Bull with a 1:2.136. This was over a second faster than the next fastest lap of Perez and Webber.

The best engines out there would appear to be Renault closly followed by Ferrari with 7 out of the top 8 finishers between them.

Then we have two Mercedes engined car of Jenson and Schumcher topping out the top 10 fstest lap.

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/874/7119/fastest_laps.html)

What is quite telling is that Kimi and Mark set their laps at just over half distance when the cars were still quite heavy.

Alonso has a great car but if the Renault powered cars keep putting in these sorts of performances, then his lead isn't unassailiable.

[Zico]

OK, lets try and put a bit of logic behing the hocus-pocus of guesswork.

Fastest car out there was Red Bull with a 1:2.136. This was over a second faster than the next fastest lap of Perez and Webber.

The best engines out there would appear to be Renault closly followed by Ferrari with 7 out of the top 8 finishers between them.

Then we have two Mercedes engined car of Jenson and Schumcher topping out the top 10 fstest lap.

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/results/season/2012/874/7119/fastest_laps.html)

What is quite telling is that Kimi and Mark set their laps at just over half distance when the cars were still quite heavy.

Alonso has a great car but if the Renault powered cars keep putting in these sorts of performances, then his lead isn't unassailiable.


Race pace laptimes dont really tell us what the 'fastest' car is, ie; Im sure Lewis could have given us a fastest laptime if he really had to... at the unwanted expense of reduced tyre performance later in the race. F1 races are now pretty much endurance events as far as the current tyres go.... and yep, the fact that Kimi and Mark set their fast laps at just over half race distance says it all.

[wedge]

OK, lets try and put a bit of logic behing the hocus-pocus of guesswork.

Fastest car out there was Red Bull with a 1:24.136. This was over a second faster than the next fastest lap of Perez and Webber.

A bit of logic ie. fastest lap overall just isn't enough.

Vettel set his fastest laps on his final 11 lap stint, on a 3 stopper and on scrubbed softs.

On the other hand Kimi was on a 2 stopper. His personal best was 1m25.831 whilst coming at the end of longish middle stint of 25 laps on scrubbed softs.

[Knock-on]

I said a 'bit' of logic??? I never said it was definitive.

The fastest car out there is more than just a single lap time but is down to how a car performs over a race. All I was pointing out was that The Ferrari and Renault engined car seem to be the best out there. Whether this is Ferrari, Lotus or Red Bull is immaterial but the Renault cars especially seem to be very gentle on their tyres.

[wedge]

I said a 'bit' of logic??? I never said it was definitive.

The fastest car out there is more than just a single lap time but is down to how a car performs over a race. All I was pointing out was that The Ferrari and Renault engined car seem to be the best out there. Whether this is Ferrari, Lotus or Red Bull is immaterial but the Renault cars especially seem to be very gentle on their tyres.

Then why base you answer soley on fastest lap times?

Is it simple enough to say Ferrari or Renault have the best engines based on simple statistics?

[The Black Knight]

I found this comment in another thread, I think that it is worth a whole topic on its own.


* not in the original comment, added for clarity

Apart from Maldonado's win in Spain which I think is an aborration, all other races have been won by four teams.
I think that in order that the best drivers out there are Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso, Button, Räikkönen, Rosberg, Webber and Kobayashi. This has to be taken into account.

I suggest that the best car out there is the Mercedes, but that Rosberg isn't quite the best driver and Schumacher who apart from having 4 retirements is past it anyway. This means that the Ferrari is probably the second best car, followed by the Red Bull and the McLaren at four.
I think that Webber and Vettel are currently able to drive a little around the "deficiencies" in the Red Bull and that the McLaren isn't quite there.

So I concur that whilst Alonso is not driving the best car on the track, it's not to say that it's a total pig either; it is after all really quite good if it's delivered 6 podiums.

I really never quite get why people don't regard Rosberg highly. He's is matching a 7time world champion, even if it is a 7 time WDC that appears to be suffering memory loss not remembering his box and starting light sequences and procedures. Plus Rosberg has pretty much destroyed all his teammates of the past. You don't have that kind of record without being a top qualify driver and he proved how good he is in China this year.

The Mercedes is clearly not the best car out there.

There is no best car out there. RBR, McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus all have great cars on their day but this year there appears to be no consistency. We can do a race by race song and dance arguing based on latest results who has the best car, but in reality it is very much track specific and highly dependent on the arrival of updates from the factory. We all thought RBR had made a big step in Valencia and were clearly the quickest car yet they couldn't have won in Germany where Ferrari and McLaren were quicker. I know Ferrari claim their car isn't the best and they need to improve, but fact is Alonso is the only driver to have won 3 races on three very different tracks so it ain't that bad either. Ferrari have always downplayed their chances throughout the years, partly due to the massive expectation placed upon them by the Tifosi.

In reality, there is no best car, but on any day RBR, McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus are quick enough to win.

[Knock-on]

Then why base you answer soley on fastest lap times?

Is it simple enough to say Ferrari or Renault have the best engines based on simple statistics?

I don't know what the problem is Wedge. I just looked at some of the data out there and started to see some patters emerging.

It could be argued taht Lotus and Red Bull are the two fastest cars out there this year and they also seem to be the cars that are easiest on their tyres. Common demoninator is the Renult engine. Similarly the Ferrari engined cars are very strong whereas the Mercedes seems to now be as strong as they have been.

Of course, I could fight the urge to look at some logic behind what is happening and just stick my finger in the air (or somewhere else) and guess.

[F1boat]

I really never quite get why people don't regard Rosberg highly. He's is matching a 7time world champion, even if it is a 7 time WDC that appears to be suffering memory loss not remembering his box and starting light sequences and procedures. Plus Rosberg has pretty much destroyed all his teammates of the past. You don't have that kind of record without being a top qualify driver and he proved how good he is in China this year.

The Mercedes is clearly not the best car out there.

There is no best car out there. RBR, McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus all have great cars on their day but this year there appears to be no consistency. We can do a race by race song and dance arguing based on latest results who has the best car, but in reality it is very much track specific and highly dependent on the arrival of updates from the factory. We all thought RBR had made a big step in Valencia and were clearly the quickest car yet they couldn't have won in Germany where Ferrari and McLaren were quicker. I know Ferrari claim their car isn't the best and they need to improve, but fact is Alonso is the only driver to have won 3 races on three very different tracks so it ain't that bad either. Ferrari have always downplayed their chances throughout the years, partly due to the massive expectation placed upon them by the Tifosi.

In reality, there is no best car, but on any day RBR, McLaren, Ferrari and Lotus are quick enough to win.

I agree with the comment that there is no best car this season, but about Rosberg - he matches a Schumacher who is passed his physical peak at least. He is a good driver, but not on the level of Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso. IMO, of course.

[kfzmeister]

I agree with the comment that there is no best car this season.

Lotus. It will show the second half of the season.

[Knock-on]

I agree with the comment that there is no best car this season, but about Rosberg - he matches a Schumacher who is passed his physical peak at least. He is a good driver, but not on the level of Vettel, Hamilton or Alonso. IMO, of course.

Much the same as my opinion. He's a good peddler but flatters Mike sometimes.

[F1boat]

Lotus. It will show the second half of the season.

If they win and Kimi becomes champion, I'll be very happy :) Although I still prefer Alonso and Ferrari.

[wedge]

I don't know what the problem is Wedge. I just looked at some of the data out there and started to see some patters emerging.

It could be argued taht Lotus and Red Bull are the two fastest cars out there this year and they also seem to be the cars that are easiest on their tyres. Common demoninator is the Renult engine. Similarly the Ferrari engined cars are very strong whereas the Mercedes seems to now be as strong as they have been.

Of course, I could fight the urge to look at some logic behind what is happening and just stick my finger in the air (or somewhere else) and guess.

What data would that be? The fastest laps chart? Race results?

Assessing performance is far more complex. It is far more about the tyres than it is with aerodynamics and engines - not to mention KERs which equates to the package.

There have been days when the option of getting full power on Lotus and RBR. Does that mean Renault (their KERS is developed in-house) have the best engine?

Using simple logic again, Hamilton has been the top performing M-B shod driver so does that mean their engine is crap/isn't competitive enough? How do you quantify its performance if the factory car has woeful tyre usage?

[Tazio]

The Pirelli tires are, de facto part of the formula this season though~~~~~~~~~~~~ bro!

[kfzmeister]

Using simple logic again, Hamilton has been the top performing M-B shod driver so does that mean their engine is crap/isn't competitive enough? How do you quantify its performance if the factory car has woeful tyre usage?

Mercedes F1 engines eating Pirelli tyres (http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15769.0.html)

[wedge]

Mercedes F1 engines eating Pirelli tyres (http://www.gpwizard.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,15769.0.html)

Just read the original source: Mercedes-Motor schuld am Reifen-Problem? - AUTO MOTOR UND SPORT (http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/mercedes-motor-schuld-am-reifen-problem-5316057.html)

Merc are highly rated engines and yet it creates and imbalance eats the rear tyres. Does it still make it the best engine if it harms the package?

[kfzmeister]

Iirc, Brawn mentions that Mercedes is working on changing the mapping to help decrease the output, so that tires last longer.
Isn't that essentially what RB were doing and this goes against the regs??

[wedge]

Iirc, Brawn mentions that Mercedes is working on changing the mapping to help decrease the output, so that tires last longer.
Isn't that essentially what RB were doing and this goes against the regs??

RBR found a loophole for specific torque setting as kind of TC and blowing the rear of the car.

M-B haven't done a lot of work on their sidepods so I'm guessing Brawn is looking for a more rear tyre friendly engine map.