Are you allowed to overtake off track now?

[Knock-on]

Vettel spent more time off the track than on :(

[Koz]

Only if you have special engine mappings.

RedBull gives you wings! POW!

[N4D13]

Sebastian, Jenson is faster than you. Can you confirm you understood this message?

I'm expecting Seb to get a penalty - at least, to make sure that he'll lose 2nd place, although a drive through looks rather more appropriate.

[donKey jote]

bull**** vettel: "I didn't know where you were so I went outside" :laugh:

[ShiftingGears]

vbb70UDFFQg

32 seconds in. If it's around the outside the stewards don't care.

[steveaki13]

I think he will get a Penalty.

This was the incident I thought of. In 2003. Michael passing Jarno exactly the same. No penalty, but then Mike got a puncture so we will never no.

F1 2003 German gp highlights Itv commentary - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlbFQKuFkrQ)

Look at 2:45 on

[Knock-on]

Got to be 25 seconds at least otherwise the stewards are saying "cheat if you want, there's no penalty"

[Robinho]

they might not have in 2007, but they've been clarifying this stuff a lot lately. Vettels excuse stunk, if he thought that Button was there then he had to yield, not drive off the track around him - he was that much quicker he would have got him somewhere in the next lap, instead he could find himself 5th or 6th.

that said he'll probably get away with it, just as with the engine maps

[AndyL]

If it's around the outside the stewards don't care.

Things might be different here, since there have already been warnings issued this weekend about departing the circuit on the outside.

[steveaki13]

The stewards abit random. They often invent a new penalty just to drop said driver one place. If Kimi had been 3 seconds behind, they would invent a 2.5 second penalty.

[rjbetty]

I can see Vettel getting away with this, just like chopping across Jenson at Suzuka 2011. Jenson was pretty good about it then I thought, but his patience might be tried now.

[truefan72]

i think he gets a penalty

also he needs to stop bitchin about Hamilton taking back his lap, he was clearly faster than him and if he was smart (or fast enough) he would have tailed him and used it to sling shot past Alonso

Vettel is turning out to be a big cry baby

[Knock-on]

"I went to overtke but there might have been a car there so it was easier to overtake off track"

Bullshot!!

[F1boat]

I hope that he will keep second personally, although the fair thing would be to give him a small penalty which will allow Jenson to gets 2nd.

[jens]

At Hockenheim a lot of overtaking has been done off the track after the hairpin, because it is so tight there that cars often get pushed wide.

[N4D13]

vbb70UDFFQg

32 seconds in. If it's around the outside the stewards don't care.
I believe it's a rather different situation. I'd need to rewatch it, but I'd say that both drivers had been pushing each other for some time, and in the end, Kubica just gave Felipe no room whatsoever - he even stepped on the edge of the kerbs. That wasn't the case today - Sebastian went for the outside of the track even before Button went for the kerb.

[Tazio]

http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/553538_329584197130027_745016319_n.jpg
:s ailor: :s ailor: :s ailor: :s ailor:

[Robinho]

The stewards abit random. They often invent a new penalty just to drop said driver one place. If Kimi had been 3 seconds behind, they would invent a 2.5 second penalty.

I don't think thats fair, the penalties are prescribed, but they have the choice of several - equivalent to a drive through, stop and go or an exclusion, or a grid penalty at the next event (there might be others). The obvious would be a drive through, equivalent being about 25 secs added to finish time. They should have the option of simply reversing the positions, seeing as they can "suggest" that they do that in the course of a race to avoid a harsher penalty, they should be able to d it at the end also

[Bagwan]

This was pretty close between them .
We need to see a replay , to see if Vettel had edged ahead before going fully off-track .

If not , then the pass was certainly made off-track , and there should be sanction .

If there is sanction , because it was on the last lap , and too close to call immediately , resulting in no blue flags calling for a relinquishing of the position , he , more than likely , will lose only one position .
At least , that seems logical to me .

[Robinho]

This was pretty close between them .
We need to see a replay , to see if Vettel had edged ahead before going fully off-track .

If not , then the pass was certainly made off-track , and there should be sanction .

If there is sanction , because it was on the last lap , and too close to call immediately , resulting in no blue flags calling for a relinquishing of the position , he , more than likely , will lose only one position .
At least , that seems logical to me .

The replay showed Button still had the lead (just) as Vettel went for the run off. he chose not to yield insted, to drive fully off track to pass

[truefan72]

wow Horner is spewing nonsense in the Sky interview,
crying about Hamilton passing Vettel

just absurd talk

[Zico]

They are supposed to have clamped down on this behaviour... Vettel should have given the position back immediately and had another go instead... unless he knows he is immune from getting a penalty. Remembering Lewis/Kimi incident at Spa a few years ago and with Lewis getting a suspended penalty for gaining an advantage... lets hope for some consistancy from the Stewards.

[Knock-on]

I must admit that my mind went to the Kimi Spa incident but the difference there was that Lewis gave the position back but STILL got penalised.

As for Horner, what a tosser. The crap he spouted was pure rubbish. I'm glad that Herbert and Hill put it back to him and made him admit Lewis didn't break the rules.

I really have no time for this man any more. He's worse than ioan for bias.

[ShiftingGears]

They are supposed to have clamped down on this behaviour... Vettel should have given the position back immediately and had another go instead... unless he knows he is immune from getting a penalty. Remembering Lewis/Kimi incident at Spa a few years ago and with Lewis getting a suspended penalty for gaining an advantage... lets hope for some consistancy from the Stewards.

The rule only applies for short-cutting the track.

I can't think of a single instance of stewards clamping down on use of the outside of a corner to pass someone. So at least they're consistent, as much as I dislike run-off being used in that way.

[donKey jote]

The rule only applies for short-cutting the track.

link please (c) valve :bounce:

[Whyzars]

The rule only applies for short-cutting the track.

I can't think of a single instance of stewards clamping down on use of the outside of a corner to pass someone. So at least they're consistent, as much as I dislike run-off being used in that way.

There aren't too many corners like the Hockenheim hairpin.

I was impressed at how well Vettel hooked up when off the track. Maybe they could put a few buckets of sand out there rather than a clean racing surface.

My thought is that Vettel should've yielded the position to Button. He didn't so he should get a drive through or equivalent unfortunately.

I'm surprised that Vettel didn't get an instruction from his pit but he was a fair way in front wthin a couple of corners. Maybe that might save him.

[truefan72]

There aren't too many corners like the Hockenheim hairpin.

I was impressed at how well Vettel hooked up when off the track. Maybe they could put a few buckets of sand out there rather than a clean racing surface.

My thought is that Vettel should've yielded the position to Button. He didn't so he should get a drive through or equivalent unfortunately.

I'm surprised that Vettel didn't get an instruction from his pit but he was a fair way in front wthin a couple of corners. Maybe that might save him.

just remembered that Alonso got a penalty for passing Kubica off track in Silverstone 2 years ago

so what is the hold up with the stewards?

[A FONDO]

Maybe they could put a few buckets of sand out there rather than a clean racing surface.


There should be either sand/gravel traps or a penalty for going wide off the track as it is for short-cutting.

[ArrowsFA1]

IMHO Vettel deliberately took a wide line to gain speed and so make the pass. It was pre-planned, not a response to anything Button did. To claim, as Vettel did, that he only went wide because he didn't know where Button was patently rubbish.

Seb should have given the place back immediately, but as he didn't the stewards need to demote him to third. If they don't then what it the point in the rules of defining the track limits with white lines?

[Bagwan]

The replay showed Button still had the lead (just) as Vettel went for the run off. he chose not to yield insted, to drive fully off track to pass

If that's the case , then I don't think they will have any choice , but to reverse positions at least .

It will be all about the very last moment they deem that Sebastian was on the track surface .

[ArrowsFA1]

Vettel penalised for Button pass, drops from second to fifth in the German Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426)

[donKey jote]

If that's the case , then I don't think they will have any choice , but to reverse positions at least .

It will be all about the very last moment they deem that Sebastian was on the track surface .
http://i47.tinypic.com/29kt406.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/ns6d0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/fdhsg7.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/4lt1fb.jpg

let the discussion begin :p

[donKey jote]

congrats Kimi on a thoroughly deserved podium ! :p

[Bagwan]

http://i47.tinypic.com/29kt406.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/ns6d0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/fdhsg7.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/4lt1fb.jpg

let the discussion begin :p

Thank-you , Mr. Donkey .
It looks like it may have been judged that the moment he started to leave the track , rather than the last moment , that might have been in the reasoning for the decision .

I find it a little surprising that the punishment is more than just a change of positions , given how close it was .
The decision seems logical , though , so I guess I shouldn't be .

[F1boat]

Harsh penalty, I was hoping for a minimal 5 sec one...

[donKey jote]

http://estaticos03.marca.com/imagenes/2012/07/22/motor/formula1/1342966333_extras_portada_1.jpg :p

[Tazio]

congrats Kimi on a thoroughly deserved podium ! :p :s ailor: snap!!! ;)

[edv]

:s ailor: snap!!! ;)

Hey is that Lamont Cranston in your avatar??

I agree with the penalty. Congrats to Kimi & Jensen.

Perhaps SebV can stand in front of a mirror and shake that childish fist at himself!

[thumpingrug]

Presumably if it wasn't in the last 5 laps Vettel would have had a drive through. 20 sec is about the time he would have lost. Seems fair to me.

[markabilly]

Of course one can pass on the off track........might have to pay a little penalty.

I thought that if he did not go off, there would be some bumping and grinding, with neither making it to the flag....

ole donKey must be so happy, he is peeing his kilts.

[AndyL]

Thank-you , Mr. Donkey .
It looks like it may have been judged that the moment he started to leave the track , rather than the last moment , that might have been in the reasoning for the decision .

I'd be looking more at the second picture I think, before Vettel left the track. At that point he'd already run too deep in the corner; he had the option to keep the wheel turned, delay hitting the throttle and complete the turn inside the white line. But he chose to straighten up so he could nail the throttle early, which was inevitably going to take him off track.

[markabilly]

i watched the Q3, and correct me, if i be wrong, but it seemed that Alonso was using a lot of off-track to get the pole position.

Problem was that the TV folks were jumping from car to car, so I could not tell exactly when he was going wide, but it seemed like he was almost always doing it through the qualifying for the pole.....Now I ain't accussing and wanting to make donKey jump up and down on his old lady, but I am just saying......

[N4D13]

i watched the Q3, and correct me, if i be wrong, but it seemed that Alonso was using a lot of off-track to get the pole position.

Problem was that the TV folks were jumping from car to car, so I could not tell exactly when he was going wide, but it seemed like he was almost always doing it through the qualifying for the pole.....Now I ain't accussing and wanting to make donKey jump up and down on his old lady, but I am just saying......
I'd need to watch a replay, but I don't think it's that uncommon. I guess several drivers must have done the same, as the normal racing line would probably have less grip than the rest of the track.

[BDunnell]

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

[Dave B]

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?
It's not a bit of track, though, it's a bit of run-off. The track is defined by the white lines, and the rules clearly state that if all 4 wheels leave the track and you gain an advantage then you should attract a penalty.

[Dave B]

Just for clarity:

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

Source: Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8683/fia.html)

:)

[ArrowsFA1]

Just for clarity...
Crystal clear :up:

[jens]

It's not a bit of track, though, it's a bit of run-off. The track is defined by the white lines, and the rules clearly state that if all 4 wheels leave the track and you gain an advantage then you should attract a penalty.

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Throughout the years I have personally got the impression that going off the track at that part of the Hockenheim circuit after the hairpin during battles is so normal that it even surprised me they have started penalizing this.

[steveaki13]

http://i47.tinypic.com/29kt406.jpg
http://i49.tinypic.com/ns6d0.jpg
http://i46.tinypic.com/fdhsg7.jpg
http://i50.tinypic.com/4lt1fb.jpg

let the discussion begin :p

I think the simple answer is that once he ran wide in the last picture, he just needed to tuck in behind. Then pass him later, which he surely would have.

Instead he just floored it and passed him.

[markabilly]

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

or this:
http://www.australianautomation.com.au/images/Road%20Spikes/7.JPG Walls are bit confining, so I go with the spikes.

For sure, a result in a mandatory pit stop.


Plus I think may be there should be a similar penalty for pushing the other driver off track............

[BDunnell]

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Exactly.

[steveaki13]

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Throughout the years I have personally got the impression that going off the track at that part of the Hockenheim circuit after the hairpin during battles is so normal that it even surprised me they have started penalizing this.

They clearly could do something about this.

The tarmac is there on the way into the hairpin because if a car goes off it is safer to brake and slow down on tarmac. Which is fine.

However on the exit they need to put grass or gravel in, as there is no danger of injury. It means there is no chance of gaining an advantage.

That would be my solution anyway

[BDunnell]

If the run off area looks like a pice of 'real track', why is it heavy painted with Santander logo's which are not normally painted on any other track surface? Its there for drivers to run wide if they miss their braking or are forced wide, they can't use it to gain better traction and cut out part of the track to get past another driver though.

Why, in that case, make it somewhere a driver would want to go in order to gain an advantage?

[markabilly]

I do not know why they do not add something extra at the end, such as a slow down, twist and turn, so anyone who uses it, will automatically lose time

[driveace]

Correct decision by the stewards ,it was a planned overtake,and a bull**** excuse.Why does Red bull feel it can break rules all the time ? Engine mapping,holes in under floors,overtaking off track! Red bull are being made to look like cheaters by Horner and his team.

[odykas]

I guess Vettel will blame cucumbers again :laugh:

Great move by Lewis! :D

[CNR]

looking at the images button is running him off the track is this also allowed ?

[wedge]

Right decision by the stewards but a harsh penalty, IMO. Should have dropped backed to third.

This is surely one of things Derek Warwick needs looking at with the FIA.


vbb70UDFFQg

32 seconds in. If it's around the outside the stewards don't care.

To be fair both were in dogfight and racing very hard: both went off at various points of the battle.


just remembered that Alonso got a penalty for passing Kubica off track in Silverstone 2 years ago

so what is the hold up with the stewards?

That was mid-race.

The incident today came at the end of the race and ran out of time to evaluate thoroughly and thus with post race and the penalties available.


Kimi used the run off at Spa for similar reasons a few years back and the FIA made it very clear you can't gain an advantage from using the grippy run off areas. All drivers are aware of this and I'm sure it would have been discussed in the Friday briefing too.

That was at the start. If he had yielded he most probably cause a chain reaction behind him.


Why, in that case, make it somewhere a driver would want to go in order to gain an advantage?

Asphalt run off is needed but sensibly revised. What is the likelihood of a high speed accident on the exit of hairpin?

[N4D13]

Asphalt run off is needed but sensibly revised. What is the likelihood of a high speed accident on the exit of hairpin?
It wouldn't be a high-speed impact, but it's not difficult to imagine a driver spinning as he goes out of the hairpin, then getting T-boned by someone behind him.

[Zico]

looking at the images button is running him off the track is this also allowed ?

Vettel had clearly decided he was going to use the run-off as part of the race track even before Jenson (would have) forced him to abandon the move and pull in behind by crowding him out... isn't that the way it is and understood by all the drivers? Jenson did nothing wrong in my book.

[wedge]

It wouldn't be a high-speed impact, but it's not difficult to imagine a driver spinning as he goes out of the hairpin, then getting T-boned by someone behind him.

What good would it do?

Asphalt is good for deceleration from high speed.

[N4D13]

What good would it do?

Asphalt is good for deceleration from high speed.
My point was that if there's asphalt in the run-off, it would be less likely to see spins in there. However, if there was grass, you might see a few ones - not many, anyway.

[Mark]

It wasn't that long ago there would have been gravel here. At least with runoff areas it means drivers can take a punt and if they make a mistake they can recover from it. But of course they can't then use it to their advantage either.

[SGWilko]

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

Graet Idea, but it (said wall) needs to be able to be retracted in nanoseconds so as not to risk maiming the wet behind the ears GP2 driver careering in that direction cos he thinks he can't kill himself. Bet yeah, walls right up close to the racing line are a fine idea! :up:

[A FONDO]

Right decision by the stewards but a harsh penalty, IMO. Should have dropped backed to third.

The penalty was soft for his arrogance. And if he was only dropped to his previous position, everybody would begin overtaking from the outside.

[F1boat]

The penalty was soft for his arrogance. And if he was only dropped to his previous position, everybody would begin overtaking from the outside.

Why? They would know that it won't work. And why the hatred for Vettel, I wonder. Did the last season hurt so much?

[A FONDO]

Are you slow? Not every time you offend the rules you get a punishment, so why not you try your luck when the worst outcome is to end in your initial position?!
And if you dont see how nasty Bieber is, you're really biased, too pity it is for an illegal champion.

[Knock-on]

I wonder just how much easier on his tyres Vettel was by using these run off areas on a regular basis. Jenson hardly ever went off track from my recollection whereas Vettel seemed to make some sort of run wide almost every lap. This means he isn't making as tight a turn as Jenson and therefore not loading and wearing out his tyres as much. It was happening so regular that it must have been a planned tactic.

When you have a relitively slow corner like that, there can surely be no justification for a big run-off area and instead it should be a gravel trap to deter people using it as Vettel did. They can compact it down so cars can run through it if they make a mistake but there will be a few seconds penalty while they rejoin the track. It would cut this sort of thing out in a stroke.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Why did we never see black and white warning flags for drivers running 4 wheels off the race-track? In the BTCC they always clamp down on drivers deliberately running wide at Copse corner at Silverstone, so why is F1 above enforcing normal motor racing rules?

[The Black Knight]

wow Horner is spewing nonsense in the Sky interview,
crying about Hamilton passing Vettel

just absurd talk

Absolutely. He has retracted it to be fair and said Hamilton did nothing wrong. If Vettel wasn't throwing the toys out of the pram so much then he'd have probably lost a lot less.

Crazy by Vettel on Button. He didn't even try to overtake on the track. He was clearly behind and just accelerated early to go around Button. I don't know how he thought he'd ever get away with it to be honest. 20 second penalty was spot on, in my opinion. He should have given the position back.

[F1boat]

Not every time you offend the rules you get a punishment
And this is not good. The rest of the post is too biased for me to answer. I have never seen Seb to be "nasty".

[wedge]

I wonder just how much easier on his tyres Vettel was by using these run off areas on a regular basis. Jenson hardly ever went off track from my recollection whereas Vettel seemed to make some sort of run wide almost every lap. This means he isn't making as tight a turn as Jenson and therefore not loading and wearing out his tyres as much. It was happening so regular that it must have been a planned tactic.

When you have a relitively slow corner like that, there can surely be no justification for a big run-off area and instead it should be a gravel trap to deter people using it as Vettel did. They can compact it down so cars can run through it if they make a mistake but there will be a few seconds penalty while they rejoin the track. It would cut this sort of thing out in a stroke.

I don't think it was anything to do with tyres. More like try too hard for greater speed off corner exit.

[Bagwan]

I wonder just how much easier on his tyres Vettel was by using these run off areas on a regular basis. Jenson hardly ever went off track from my recollection whereas Vettel seemed to make some sort of run wide almost every lap. This means he isn't making as tight a turn as Jenson and therefore not loading and wearing out his tyres as much. It was happening so regular that it must have been a planned tactic.

When you have a relitively slow corner like that, there can surely be no justification for a big run-off area and instead it should be a gravel trap to deter people using it as Vettel did. They can compact it down so cars can run through it if they make a mistake but there will be a few seconds penalty while they rejoin the track. It would cut this sort of thing out in a stroke.

Very true , Knockie .
Whadaya know . We agree on something !

The idea of gravel would work , but you will always have the issue of having it spread all over the track , and more often than not in corners , where grip is essential .
Compacted or not , it would still have too much potential to flip a car if it was to dig in .

But , how about having deep grooves cut into the surface , heavily increasing grip where it's needed for slowing a car going off , but also , so heavily abrasive as to make it unwise to use on any regular basis ?

[Knock-on]

I don't think it was anything to do with tyres. More like try too hard for greater speed off corner exit.

It could be that as well. We saw how much extra speed he had by running wide on the Jenson non-overtake so if he was doing this all race, he could quite easily make up a second a lap. Would he have been "trying as hard" if there was a wll there? No. So unless we are saying he is a crap driver that can't keep it on the Island, we must conclude that he was using areas on purpose that he shouldn't have.

Baggy, yes we agree. Some sort of surface with greatly reduced grip but which still allows an out of control cr to safely slow down is essential. I think the TWG need to look at ths.

[Mark]

If all 4 wheels are outside the race track you automatically get the length of time you were outside the boundaries of the track added to your race time.

[Robinho]

It could be that as well. We saw how much extra speed he had by running wide on the Jenson non-overtake so if he was doing this all race, he could quite easily make up a second a lap. Would he have been "trying as hard" if there was a wll there? No. So unless we are saying he is a crap driver that can't keep it on the Island, we must conclude that he was using areas on purpose that he shouldn't have.

Baggy, yes we agree. Some sort of surface with greatly reduced grip but which still allows an out of control cr to safely slow down is essential. I think the TWG need to look at ths.

how about a car width or 2 of clay like they play tennis on?

[Bagwan]

Baggy, yes we agree. Some sort of surface with greatly reduced grip but which still allows an out of control cr to safely slow down is essential. I think the TWG need to look at ths.

Well , almost .
I was talking about diamond cutting , to increase grip for running off , but also to punish those going wide , by reducing the tire life .
A reduction in grip could compromise the safety of the run-offs when a driver does have a shunt .

You're right that the TWG needs to have a good look in here , though .

[Bagwan]

how about a car width or 2 of clay like they play tennis on?

The concept of having a lower grip surface just outside the curbing has some merit , but not clay .
They don't play tennis in the rain .
One car dragging some wet clay onto the racing surface could have some really disastrous effect on the rest of the runners , if the clay is anything like the "slippery when wet" stuff we get around here .

[wedge]

It could be that as well. We saw how much extra speed he had by running wide on the Jenson non-overtake so if he was doing this all race, he could quite easily make up a second a lap. Would he have been "trying as hard" if there was a wll there? No. So unless we are saying he is a crap driver that can't keep it on the Island, we must conclude that he was using areas on purpose that he shouldn't have.

Would he doing it if he was in the lead controlling the race? Probably not.

Besides, how far do you go? I'm not to keen on drivers taking the racing line into the pits.

But as BDunnell pointed out you use whatever is available to make up the difference.

[Bezza]

If we take the hairpin as a great example, there is absolutely no need for tarmac run-off on the exit of the corner.

I agree with it being there on the entry, so that if a crash happens there is enough grippy run off to stop the car before the wall.

But they should look at corner exits, there is no way you could have a high-speed crash on the exit of the corner, so they should put grass there to slow down any driver that gets the corner wrong.

They then need to adopt this attitude with other corners and other tracks. tarmac run off on corner entry, grass run off on corner exit.

[BDunnell]

If we take the hairpin as a great example, there is absolutely no need for tarmac run-off on the exit of the corner.

I agree with it being there on the entry, so that if a crash happens there is enough grippy run off to stop the car before the wall.

But they should look at corner exits, there is no way you could have a high-speed crash on the exit of the corner, so they should put grass there to slow down any driver that gets the corner wrong.

They then need to adopt this attitude with other corners and other tracks. tarmac run off on corner entry, grass run off on corner exit.

Exactly. Same goes for absurd situations like warnings and penalties being meted out for 'exceeding track limits' at Paddock Hill Bend at Brands Hatch. If you don't want people driving there, make the corner such as there is no advantage to be gained from doing so.

[Firstgear]

The concept of having a lower grip surface just outside the curbing has some merit , but not clay .

Google 'turfstone'. I think I may have seen it at some tracks, and I think it would be a good 'low grip' solution here. It's like a cross pattern of concrete/brick with grass infill. Slippery enough to deter drivers, but not dangerous like a wall, or race ending like a sand trap might be.

[Tazio]

After thoughtful consideration I have come to the opinion that probably any of the top guys not driving for Red Bull would have immediately got on the radio and asked if he should give the place back. I know Button, and The Boss would, the latter has been down that road before. I also feel pretty confident that MW, Kimi, and Alonso would as well. Now Mike.... he might not :p : IMHO There are two reasons I can think of that Vettel did not; a culture of arrogance and entitlement on his side of the paddock (that includes Horner of course) at Red Bull, or simply inexperience in that type of situation on the part of Vettel because Buttons tires were shot out of a mortar off the cliff, and Seb knew it (he even said so). :s ailor: I'm guessing it is a little of both.

[Knock-on]

If we take the hairpin as a great example, there is absolutely no need for tarmac run-off on the exit of the corner.

I agree with it being there on the entry, so that if a crash happens there is enough grippy run off to stop the car before the wall.

But they should look at corner exits, there is no way you could have a high-speed crash on the exit of the corner, so they should put grass there to slow down any driver that gets the corner wrong.

They then need to adopt this attitude with other corners and other tracks. tarmac run off on corner entry, grass run off on corner exit.

As per normal, put much more eloquently than my post :up:

There is no reason for the runoff there. A length in case someone overshoots the corner but why have it on the exit. Makes no sense.

Damn you Tilke; damn you!! (Shakes fist)

[Knock-on]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/s480x480/551038_250261601757071_1210065237

[Knock-on]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/551038_250261601757071_1210065237_n.jpg

[Bagwan]

Charly has just come out and said that the penalty for Vettel was harsh at twenty seconds , but that it was the only option available .
Apparently , they are now working on a rewrite of the rules , to allow for some choice for the stewards , on the number of seconds they are penalized for infractions .

This is good news , as any punishment should fit any crime . It's only fair .

And , good news for the forum , too , as there will undoubtedly be some stellar debating here about whether it should have been five , or whether six seconds should have been the minimum penalty for such an aggregious act .

[SGWilko]

A penalty is a penalty. If you do not want to suffer the penalty - fair or not - don't break the rules.

[Bagwan]

A penalty is a penalty. If you do not want to suffer the penalty - fair or not - don't break the rules.

Marko just described it as "capitol punishment for stealing chickens" .

So , it sounds like he knew Sebastian was caught in the henhouse , chicken-handed .

But , he wasn't pleased to hear "Off with his head" .

[ArrowsFA1]

Formula 1 drivers were warned specifically about increased scrutiny on anyone gaining an advantage by leaving the track, before Sebastian Vettel's controversial move on Jenson Button at the German Grand Prix.
Sebastian Vettel's German Grand Prix penalty came after FIA warning over off-track moves - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101474)

Vettel, Marko et al can have no complaints.

[Bagwan]

Sebastian Vettel's German Grand Prix penalty came after FIA warning over off-track moves - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101474)

Vettel, Marko et al can have no complaints.

To be fair , they argued that he was pushed off .
So , they complained it wasn't fair to say he did it deliberately .

Now , having appeared to have accepted he should be punished , they are complaining that it is too harsh .
That's something with which Charlie is in agreement .

So , not only complaint , but seemingly justified complaint since the race director agrees .

[ArrowsFA1]

1) Charlie's instruction, issued at the British GP the week before Germany, says "Any driver leaving the track may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage." Red Bull cannot complain they were unaware of that instruction.
2) Being aware of that instruction, and having undoubtedly gained a position by "leaving the track" Red Bull should have immediately told Vettel to give the position back to Button avoiding a penalty and so retaining the opportunity in the remaining laps to overtake legitimately. They only have themselves to blame for not doing so, therefore they cannot complain.
3) Having determined that Vettel had made an illegal pass the penalties available to the stewards are fixed in the regulations. Regulations that Red Bull have signed up to. Again, no cause for complaint.

Personally I think a reversal of positions would have been sufficient however as someone who has repeatedly called for consistency when it comes to penalties I have no complaint that the offence was judged and the penalty applied according to the rules. If, as a result of this, the stewards are going to be able to make up their own penalties according to circumstance then consistency will go right out of the window.

[BDunnell]

1) Charlie's instruction, issued at the British GP the week before Germany, says "Any driver leaving the track may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage." Red Bull cannot complain they were unaware of that instruction.
2) Being aware of that instruction, and having undoubtedly gained a position by "leaving the track" Red Bull should have immediately told Vettel to give the position back to Button avoiding a penalty and so retaining the opportunity in the remaining laps to overtake legitimately. They only have themselves to blame for not doing so, therefore they cannot complain.
3) Having determined that Vettel had made an illegal pass the penalties available to the stewards are fixed in the regulations. Regulations that Red Bull have signed up to. Again, no cause for complaint.

Personally I think a reversal of positions would have been sufficient however as someone who has repeatedly called for consistency when it comes to penalties I have no complaint that the offence was judged and the penalty applied according to the rules. If, as a result of this, the stewards are going to be able to make up their own penalties according to circumstance then consistency will go right out of the window.

I don't disagree with any of this, but can anyone really say that these rules and endless opportunities for the meting-out of penalties improve the sport?

[Malbec]

There is no reason for the runoff there. A length in case someone overshoots the corner but why have it on the exit. Makes no sense.

Isn't it historical? Isn't it where the track used to return from the woods and back into the stadium section back in the old days? They just tarmaced over the whole area I think instead of sculpting out gravel traps.

Agree with the above posts saying that if you give drivers the option of a run-off area that doesn't slow you down they'll just exploit it. Merely penalising the odd trespasser afterwards is ineffective. A stepped kerb at the edge of the track that makes excursions both painful and potentially damaging to the car would do the trick.

[ArrowsFA1]

I don't disagree with any of this, but can anyone really say that these rules and endless opportunities for the meting-out of penalties improve the sport?
Not in my view. I think there are already too many rules, particularly where driver behaviour is concerned.

[Bezza]

Vettel and "Dr Marko" have a history now of being utter complete whingebags. I'd argue Marko is even worse than Vettel! And they seem completely unable to hold themselves responsible of an accident.

It is so blatantly clear that Vettel drove purposely off track to gain the position, that Red Bull and Vettel should be in disrepute for even protesting their innocence over it.

Christian Horner's interview on Sky was cringeworthy. He squirmed and shuffled and said "well, as you can see on the video - Jenson ran wide and Vettel had no choice but to go over the kerb - Jenson did it as well!!!!" - yet, the video showed Jenson barely touched the kerb until Vettel was powering ahead of him! Vettel said the same "I didn't see where he was". Your bloody in-car camera shows Button is right there, are you blind?! If you couldn't see him, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in F1! It was clear that they had choreographed their answers.

Vettel then lied on the podium interview, saying Button hadn't said anything, when we all heard him have a go on live TV five minutes earlier.

This is why I can't stand Red Bull at the moment, apart from Mark Webber, who is good honest racer. I am really hoping the title comes to a showdown between Alonso and Webber.

[Bezza]

Doesn't surprise me that on Google when you search for "Helmut Marko" - the first predicted response is "Helmut Marko Idiot" :laugh:

[Mia 01]

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.

[ArrowsFA1]

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.


20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving
back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least
one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

FIA Sporting Regulations (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/81DF225EBCCCA51BC12579C8002D2DEC/$FILE/1-2012%20SPORTING%20REGULATIONS%2009-03-2012.pdf) (pdf)

[SGWilko]

A stepped kerb at the edge of the track that makes excursions both painful and potentially damaging to the car would do the trick.

Anything that has the potential to launch an out of control car should be avoided. Slap offenders with endless penalties until they learn the hard way.

[SGWilko]

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.

No, the clarification was made after Nico R tried that one twice in one race......

[Mia 01]

"A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason".

Forced off.

[SGWilko]

"A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason".

Forced off.

Vettel had the chance to switch back, but chose to continue around the outside of Button. He put himself in that position, Button just took the best line given his fading tyres.

[wedge]

Christian Horner's interview on Sky was cringeworthy. He squirmed and shuffled and said "well, as you can see on the video - Jenson ran wide and Vettel had no choice but to go over the kerb - Jenson did it as well!!!!" - yet, the video showed Jenson barely touched the kerb until Vettel was powering ahead of him! Vettel said the same "I didn't see where he was". Your bloody in-car camera shows Button is right there, are you blind?! If you couldn't see him, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in F1! It was clear that they had choreographed their answers.

Cringeworthy in its execution but Horner is hardly going to say Seb is guilty and compromise RBR's quest for the 2012 WDC & WCC.

It's part and parcel of being a senior team member to defend your driver. Win as a team and lose as team. Marko clearly showed his/RBR's real allegiances were with Vettel after the crash with Webber in Turkey 2010, Ron Dennis did it in 1989 saying Prost left the door open to invite Senna for lunge down the inside, Ross Brawn a number of times defended Schumi.

[ArrowsFA1]

It's part and parcel of being a senior team member to defend your driver.
Indeed :up: As it is part and parcel of being a driver to toe the team line in interviews :)

[Bezza]

Cringeworthy in its execution but Horner is hardly going to say Seb is guilty and compromise RBR's quest for the 2012 WDC & WCC.

It's part and parcel of being a senior team member to defend your driver. Win as a team and lose as team. Marko clearly showed his/RBR's real allegiances were with Vettel after the crash with Webber in Turkey 2010, Ron Dennis did it in 1989 saying Prost left the door open to invite Senna for lunge down the inside, Ross Brawn a number of times defended Schumi.

I understand this, but it was so blatantly clear that Vettel was in the wrong that I found the whole thing a bit difficult to watch.

Red Bull need to think harder about how they control their "Number One Driver". Horner should've been on the radio immediately, saying give the place back. He then could have tried a pass next lap around, or maybe he would've had to settle for third. Would've been better than fifth!

[Tazio]

Vettel then lied on the podium interview, saying Button hadn't said anything, when we all heard him have a go on live TV five minutes earlier.
Saved on Tivo for posterity :p : I guess he was just at a loss for words in an awkward public speaking moment :laugh: Kudos to Button for taking the whole thing in stride, and actually thanking the German fans, something that Vettel couldn't even choke out!!

[Bagwan]

Red Bull need to think harder about how they control their "Number One Driver". Horner should've been on the radio immediately, saying give the place back. He then could have tried a pass next lap around, or maybe he would've had to settle for third. Would've been better than fifth!

Vettel's now saying he got no direction as to whether to relinquish the position from either the FIA or his team .
I'm wondering if they were on the phone to Charlie , asking if he had to give it back , or if they bothered .

Certainly , Button had his doubts as to whether the move was legal .

So , Sebastian clearly thought he had done nothing wrong , and his team's inaction backed his opinion .

It seems as though it would have more clever to at least ask , whether they believed he was in the right or not , but it doea appear they did .

[Tazio]

Vettel's now saying he got no direction as to whether to relinquish the position from either the FIA or his team .
I'm wondering if they were on the phone to Charlie , asking if he had to give it back , or if they bothered .

Certainly , Button had his doubts as to whether the move was legal .

So , Sebastian clearly thought he had done nothing wrong , and his team's inaction backed his opinion .

It seems as though it would have more clever to at least ask , whether they believed he was in the right or not , but it doea appear they did .I think he should have given it back, knowing that he had a better than average chance to take it right back since Button was dead in the water. I understand that hindsight is 20/20, but they had to know that Button had lodged a complaint immediately as it was only slightly delayed on the world feed.
Arrogance and a sense of entitlement that has filtered down from Marko's ego were relevant in their decision making, plus a dose of Vettel’s emotional make-up that precludes him from being a very good independent thinker where logic is involved. JMO

[TheFamousEccles]

Aaarrrggghhh, must.......not......say.....anything......inflamma tory......(aaaaaiiiii)......about...:..Helmut..... ...nooo....(sound of head exploding).

[truefan72]

I think he should have given it back, knowing that he had a better than average chance to take it right back since Button was dead in the water. I understand that hindsight is 20/20, but they had to know that Button had lodged a complaint immediately as it was only slightly delayed on the world feed.
Arrogance and a sense of entitlement that has filtered down from Marko's ego were relevant in their decision making, plus a dose of Vettel’s emotional make-up that precludes him from being a very good independent thinker where logic is involved. JMO

Vettel & RBR never think they havedoen anything wrong, even though in the last 3 years they've been the source of controversy time and time again with constant rule clarifications and requests to alter their car.
They have mastered the art of absconding & fingerprinting to such a degree that if a mirror were placed in front of them, it wouldn't reflect them.

At one time I liked this team, my Austrian roots, the plucky upstarts, the new and trendy aura they projected.
But they have quickly become an entitled team who think they are above the law and rulebook.
Winning at all cost and often beyond the boundaries is what they are about now.

After Flavio and Fry, Horner is my least liked principle of all time

[ArrowsFA1]

So , Sebastian clearly thought he had done nothing wrong , and his team's inaction backed his opinion .

It seems as though it would have more clever to at least ask , whether they believed he was in the right or not , but it doea appear they did .
No overtaking off track is one of the clearest, least ambiguous, rules there is. Vettel knew he had passed Button off track. The team must have known that a penalty was a possibility at the very least immediately after he had done so. If Vettel didn't ask the question the team should have.

[Dave B]

Every driver knows that if they overtake off-track they should get on the radio and whinge that they were forced off, as an arse-covering exercise in case it goes to the stewards. Vettel didn't do that, so either he was ignorant of the rule (unlikely, he's a clever chap), he didn't know he'd breached it (unlikely, those white lines are highly visible) or he thought he'd got away with it (ah....)

[Garry Walker]

The overview footage of this incident shows clearly Vettel was not forced off. He had the option to tuck in behind Jenson but chose to leave the track and use the more grippy surface to get ahead. Forced off, err I think not.

Why is this even being discussed anymore? It was as clear as possible that bieber tried to cheat, in fact I can't understand how anyone could even argue otherwise.

No overtaking off track is one of the clearest, least ambiguous, rules there is. Vettel knew he had passed Button off track. The team must have known that a penalty was a possibility at the very least immediately after he had done so. If Vettel didn't ask the question the team should have.

Red Bull is full of arrogant jerks, lead by marko who is the most arrogant of all. The only person there (and I am not talking about mechanics who we know nothing about) who doesn't have his head in his ass is Mark Webber. The rest are pricks of the highest order.

[Bezza]

Red Bull is full of arrogant jerks, lead by marko who is the most arrogant of all. The only person there (and I am not talking about mechanics who we know nothing about) who doesn't have his head in his ass is Mark Webber. The rest are pricks of the highest order.

I actually could not put that any better.

I think Red Bull are getting worse as well. After two titles, they now feel they are owed something and deserve decisions made for them in their favour.

I don't recall Newey being so completely ridiculous with his cars at Williams or McLaren. I do recall the 1998 McLaren having rear brakes, but Red Bull at the moment seem to have a new dodgy car every week.

[airshifter]

Though I fully agree that Vettel exited and made the pass off track, I don't think Jenson would have been able to keep from pushing him off the track either. Vettel took his out early, got on the gas, and made the pass off track. The room wasn't there to stay on track, and recent clarifications have indicated that Jenson should have clearly left room for Sebastian on the outside.

I don't have any problem with the penalty, but think this and many others are often enforced on a somewhat selective basis. RB should have told Vettel to give the spot back so he could try again, but IMO it doesn't make what Button did right either.

[ArrowsFA1]

...recent clarifications have indicated that Jenson should have clearly left room for Sebastian on the outside.
Somebdy will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rule regarding having to leave room referred more to when a driver makes a move to defend a potential pass and moves back he has to leave a cars width of space.

Button did that approaching the corner. If he was then supposed to leave the door open again I really don't hold out much hope for racing. As I've said I already think there are too many rules governing what drivers can and cannot do!

IMHO Vettel, knowing he had not made the pass, deliberately took the off track option early. He knew he would gain speed because he could floor the throttle earlier than JB by taking the line that he did.

I assume that the stewards, with access to far more data than we ever see, had some evidence of this. I don't see that Vettel was "forced" off track, rather he made a choice. It proved to be the wrong one according to the penalty imposed.

[Garry Walker]

Though I fully agree that Vettel exited and made the pass off track, I don't think Jenson would have been able to keep from pushing him off the track either. Vettel took his out early, got on the gas, and made the pass off track. The room wasn't there to stay on track, and recent clarifications have indicated that Jenson should have clearly left room for Sebastian on the outside.

I don't have any problem with the penalty, but think this and many others are often enforced on a somewhat selective basis. RB should have told Vettel to give the spot back so he could try again, but IMO it doesn't make what Button did right either.

LOL.
Really, go stand in the corner.

[Tazio]

Somebdy will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rule regarding having to leave room referred more to when a driver makes a move to defend a potential pass and moves back he has to leave a cars width of space.

Button did that approaching the corner. If he was then supposed to leave the door open again I really don't hold out much hope for racing. As I've said I already think there are too many rules governing what drivers can and cannot do!

IMHO Vettel, knowing he had not made the pass, deliberately took the off track option early. He knew he would gain speed because he could floor the throttle earlier than JB by taking the line that he did.

I assume that the stewards, with access to far more data than we ever see, had some evidence of this. I don't see that Vettel was "forced" off track, rather he made a choice. It proved to be the wrong one according to the penalty imposed.I think that the ruling made at the time was done with the time and type of deliberation that it is de facto correct. What I don't want to see is someone else getting away with doing it presisely the same way as the Stewards have a very bad habit of being inconsistant, and subjective.

[airshifter]

Somebdy will correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the rule regarding having to leave room referred more to when a driver makes a move to defend a potential pass and moves back he has to leave a cars width of space.

Button did that approaching the corner. If he was then supposed to leave the door open again I really don't hold out much hope for racing. As I've said I already think there are too many rules governing what drivers can and cannot do!

IMHO Vettel, knowing he had not made the pass, deliberately took the off track option early. He knew he would gain speed because he could floor the throttle earlier than JB by taking the line that he did.

I assume that the stewards, with access to far more data than we ever see, had some evidence of this. I don't see that Vettel was "forced" off track, rather he made a choice. It proved to be the wrong one according to the penalty imposed.

I don't disagree that Vettel took the off track early, but I simply don't see that he would have had room either way. If you look at the stills posted on page 1 of the thread (or watch in slow motion as I did several times) Jenson essentially does not complete turning back to the angle of the track until Vettel is off track.

This doesn't excuse Vettel using the off track area to gain position, it's simply an opinion that had Vettel turned hard enough to stay off the kerbs, Jenson would have hit him.

[steveaki13]

[quote="ArrowsFA1"]Button did that approaching the corner. If he was then supposed to leave the door open again I really don't hold out much hope for racing. As I've said I already think there are too many rules governing what drivers can and cannot do!

IMHO Vettel, knowing he had not made the pass, deliberately took the off track option early. He knew he would gain speed because he could floor the throttle earlier than JB by taking the line that he did.

QUOTE]

[steveaki13]

Button did that approaching the corner. If he was then supposed to leave the door open again I really don't hold out much hope for racing. As I've said I already think there are too many rules governing what drivers can and cannot do!



Agree with this 100%.

Put gravel on the exit too, then safer entry to hairpin tarmac. Then exit gravel or grass to stop this action.