Should we apologise for slavery?

[raphael123]

So some people are arguing that the british should apologise for slavery, as it's currently celebrating it's 200th year since it was outlawed.

Should we apologise (as a british citizen), or should we celebrate the death of slavery as it previously stood?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Should the Scandanavians apologise for the Vikings invading our islands? :rolleyes:

An apology wouldn't mean anything to most people.

[Dave B]

Who would we apologise to? Slavery, at least in the form we all associate with the word, ended two hundred years ago.

We should be concentrating our efforts on ending "modern slavery", like the trade in people traffic, and the problem of young women being sold into the sex industry.

Otherwise where does it all end? All right then, I want an apology from the Romans.

[BeansBeansBeans]

There was an interesting debate about this on Question Time yesterday evening.

I think we should use the lessons of the past to make things better in the future, but I see no purpose in apologising. Especially when everyone involved in the slave trade will have been deceased for at least 100 years.

[Hawkmoon]

No apology should be forthcoming. You can't apply todays standards to history. People thought differently back then. We have moved on and abolished such things as slavery. That is what is important.

I'm not responsible for what my ancestors may have done and I believe that nobody should have to apologise for what their country did hundreds of years ago.

[AndyRAC]

No, we shouldn't apologise, yes it was wrong, but it was 200 years ago. Where do you draw the line, what about apologies from the Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc,. And don't forget who actually sold the slaves, their very own people. Far too many woolly minded liberals in positions of power nowadays. Get real, what do they want us to apologise next for.

[slinkster]

I don't see how apologising for it really means anything. It wasn't our generation that did this, it was in the past where moral standards were completely different and largely don't apply to today at all. Our attentions would be best served making a difference to the here and now.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

What about mixed race people? Do they apologise to themselves?

[Gannex]

But an apology for wrongs done ages ago can be meaningful under some circumstances. For example, if the Turks were to apologise for the massacre of the Armenians in the early twentieth century, I think that would be very meaningful because it would indicate that the Turks finally acknowledge and stop denying the atrocious actions of their grandfathers. In a similar vein, isn't it good if the Church of England apologise for its role in the slave trade, because by doing so the Church is acknowledging its institutional failings as a necessary first step to remedying them?

[BDunnell]

But an apology for wrongs done ages ago can be meaningful under some circumstances. For example, if the Turks were to apologise for the massacre of the Armenians in the early twentieth century, I think that would be very meaningful because it would indicate that the Turks finally acknowledge and stop denying the atrocious actions of their grandfathers. In a similar vein, isn't it good if the Church of England apologise for its role in the slave trade, because by doing so the Church is acknowledging its institutional failings as a necessary first step to remedying them?

I agree. The same goes for the Japanese in relation to the Second World War. However, as an individual, I don't feel in any way responsible for the slave trade, and thus no personal need to apologise, just as I don't think German people of the post-1945 generation need go around apologising for the Second World War any more.

[Dave B]

For example, if the Turks were to apologise for the massacre of the Armenians in the early twentieth century, I think that would be very meaningful because it would indicate that the Turks finally acknowledge and stop denying the atrocious actions of their grandfathers.

There's a difference between denying something happenned and not apologising, though. Nobody's ever tried to claim that there wasn't a slave trade.

[Gannex]

I agree. The same goes for the Japanese in relation to the Second World War. However, as an individual, I don't feel in any way responsible for the slave trade, and thus no personal need to apologise, just as I don't think German people of the post-1945 generation need go around apologising for the Second World War any more.
Absolutely. In fact, the post-war generation of Germans, unlike their Japanese counterparts, should in my opinion be extremely proud, rather than apologetic, about the way they have dealt with their recent history. If only other peoples could react to a historic wrong as the Germans have, there would be a lot less suffering in the world.

[Drew]

Have we not already apologised?

It must also be remembed it wasn't just the British that were the cause of the slave trade...

[Gannex]

What about mixed race people? Do they apologise to themselves?Jon, that's very funny! And surely the answer is yes.

[BeansBeansBeans]

And surely the answer is yes.

Not necessarily Gannex. The mixed race person in question might be half hispanic, half oriental and this issue won't affect them.

[Gannex]

In that case, I think the person should offer himself a half-hearted apology, and possibly refuse to accept it.

[FrankenSchwinn]

if only it was just slavery that the british ought to appologize for......

[oily oaf]

Absolutely not! :mad:

However I do feel most strongly that my apprentice should apologise to me for fitting a clutch release bearing the wrong way round on a Honda Concerto this morning causing me to spend a precious 3 hours of my time disassembling the whole enchillda, during the course of which I got a sizeable quantity of gearbox oil in one of my shell like earoles. :(

Funnily enough I put the apology question to one of my workmates, Tony a black Cockney rudeboy with a line in Jamaican patois that would have Bob Marley reaching for the phrasebook and after about 10 minutes of sucking his teeth he said. Quote:

"Raaaas! Dem black people need to just get on wid it brudder"

Quite ;)

[Hazell B]

Yes, there should be an apology.

Does it hurt to simply say sorry? No. Does it cost anything? No. Are we all, in some small way, enjoying the benefit of a country's profits from the slave trade 200 years on? Yes.

So why not just say a very open sorry and get on with life in the knowledge that somebody somewhere might be a bit happier that they're called after the person who owned them rather than their own name. Not saying sorry simply means we're not interested in learning why we have so many grand civic buildings and the like - paid for by the trade in slaves - and why so many African people are called Smith, Jones or Watts.

Jeez, with the 'no' side mounting up on here I'm wondering how much a sorry really would hurt you all. And I'm a bit ashamed to be honest. You've probably all got a bit of black blood in your veins you know ....

[LotusElise]

We should be concentrating our efforts on ending "modern slavery", like the trade in people traffic, and the problem of young women being sold into the sex industry.


Spot on. Slavery never really went away, it just got a different image over the years.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Like people in Asia working for Nike for 60p per day. :(

[Roamy]

I think we should offer a one way airplane ticket and a first time buyers mortgage to all that wish to return to their native land.

Quit buying Nike shoes. Quit buying products that are made with slave labor.
this is not a hard deal

[Daniel]

Like people in Asia working for Nike for 60p per day. :(
60p a day is better than on 0p a day. It was hard to explain to someone on this forum a while ago but 3rd world companies have to start somewhere. Countries like India for instance used to have a lot more sweatshops than they do now. Now you find India has a developing IT sector and has a lot more skilled jobs like call centre jobs. 20 years from now a country like India will probably be a lot closer to the West than it is now. All intially because of sweatshop labour. That's not to say I think it's a fair wage or that Nike can't afford to pay more. It's just that boycotting their products just means that more people will be forced to live on 0p a day rather than 60p a day.

As for the original question. No.

[R. Mears]

Ludicrous at best. Then we can apologize for allowing witchcraft,women not being able to vote sooner,slave labor in factories. Then we'll cut them all a check which is what they really want. :confused:

[SEATFreak]

Should the Scandanavians apologise for the Vikings invading our islands? :rolleyes:

An apology wouldn't mean anything to most people.

Regarding the first point, funnily someone said the same thing (albeit using different words) on Question Time this Thursday gone. And one of the panelists who is half Indian and half British said of the British rule over the Raj, though not in as many words, "As an Indian should I be the one being appologised to or as someone born in Britain should I be the appologiser?"

The second sums up my feelings. Even if a white did come up to a black in the sreet and appologise, what benefit would it serve the black? Would he/she feel any better? The whites and blacks that ought to be in that situation to are the slaves and the enslavers. My opinion is it is just a way for blacks to feel superior.

[Tomi]

Should the Scandanavians apologise for the Vikings invading our islands? :rolleyes:

Sorry, about the invading, you can PM your account number for compensation. :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

60p a day is better than on 0p a day. It was hard to explain to someone on this forum a while ago but 3rd world companies have to start somewhere. Countries like India for instance used to have a lot more sweatshops than they do now. Now you find India has a developing IT sector and has a lot more skilled jobs like call centre jobs. 20 years from now a country like India will probably be a lot closer to the West than it is now. All intially because of sweatshop labour. That's not to say I think it's a fair wage or that Nike can't afford to pay more. It's just that boycotting their products just means that more people will be forced to live on 0p a day rather than 60p a day.

.

Of course 60p is better than nothing but that doesn't make it morally right. It's not like Nike or other TNC's have profit margins so small that they have to pay small wages to make money. They can easily afford to pay more and still make money for themselves. Buying fair trade products is an alternative :) (although I don't kow any fair trade sports wear products)

As for the slave trade who would be apologising? :confused: White people to black people or Britain to black people? Who do black british people apologise to?

This is just dividing white and black people again.

[Ian McC]

Sorry, about the invading, you can PM your account number for compensation. :)

We don't want compensation, we want to return the favour! Just allow us a few free nights out at your best drinking establishments with some of your finest women and we will call it quits :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

Lets see, who really gains by an apology? Do blacks who don't have jobs get jobs from it? No. Do white libreals who talk about making the world better while actually doing nothing concrete feel better? Yes. I see, guilt is a wonderfully useless emotion when it is held by a group of people that actually did nothing to deserve that emotion.

No apology is required since most blacks in modern western nations want better opportunity and jobs, not worthless platitudes. They of course will get this for the most part if they want it, not because someone is holding them down or keeping them there. Freedom means you have the opportunity to succeed, or fail. Most people know this, and a worthless apology from a bunch of people who feel guilty for belonging to a successful society isn't going to mean a damned thing.

[Hazell B]

Lets see, who really gains by an apology?

Turn that on it's head and ask who loses ;)

The gain bit is easy - some people will feel better. I frankly don't know who they are, but as this is a hot topic I guess somebody somewhere suggested an apology and somebody else said it would be a good thing. Therefore, even if it only serves those two people it must be good. No apology serves no people at all, but is making the news in a rather bad way.

As I said earlier, it hurts nobody to say sorry. It costs nothing. Why not then?

[SEATFreak]

Turn that on it's head and ask who loses ;)

The gain bit is easy - some people will feel better. I frankly don't know who they are, but as this is a hot topic I guess somebody somewhere suggested an apology and somebody else said it would be a good thing. Therefore, even if it only serves those two people it must be good. No apology serves no people at all, but is making the news in a rather bad way.

As I said earlier, it hurts nobody to say sorry. It costs nothing. Why not then?

Sorry lass but although I don't really see where your coming from, I do feel strongly that it is the feeling better when you appologise (though not in my case - I feel humiliated) that is atleast in part why blacks want whites to appologise. But their is no sense of feeling better when it is for a bad event that happened so long ago and is so un-connected to you, but only is because your of the same religion, race etc.

[Hazell B]

It is connected!

Almost every town and city has buildings paid for by slave traders who wanted to be civic leaders. Schools, hospitals and all manner of establishments were funded by the men who dealt slaves. Those places are still in use. If we had had to pay to build them from taxes of the day, they simply wouldn't exist at all. Without them our relatives would never have had the life they had and quite a few of us lot wouldn't be here today.

The slave trade funded vast sections of UK life.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Almost every town and city has buildings paid for by slave traders who wanted to be civic leaders. Schools, hospitals and all manner of establishments were funded by the men who dealt slaves. Those places are still in use. If we had had to pay to build them from taxes of the day, they simply wouldn't exist at all. Without them our relatives would never have had the life they had and quite a few of us lot wouldn't be here today.

You have a good point.

My family come from Liverpool; a city built on the slave trade. So perhaps, on behalf of my ancestors, I do have something to apologise for.

[Ian McC]

Sins of the father hey Hazell? Or should that be great great great Grandfathers.....

[Tomi]

We don't want compensation, we want to return the favour! Just allow us a few free nights out at your best drinking establishments with some of your finest women and we will call it quits :D

Sounds ok to me, make your pic then :)

[Malbec]

Absolutely. In fact, the post-war generation of Germans, unlike their Japanese counterparts, should in my opinion be extremely proud, rather than apologetic, about the way they have dealt with their recent history.

I'd be careful about statements like that.

Whereas the Japanese government may steadfastly refuse to apologise for its actions in the war, the vast majority of the Japanese public are highly aware of what was done in their name in countries like China. While the right wing sponsored textbooks that deny the Nanking massacre might grab the headlines in the west, what isn't conveyed is that very few schools actually use them, and most of those controversial books are sold to members of the public who buy them out of curiosity.

I remember someone once explaining to me why Mitsubishi kept signing contracts with companies like Hyundai and Proton which were highly unfavourable to the Japanese company. They said that it was a form of corporate reparations to countries that had suffered under Japanese occupation.

Perhaps you ought to consider the Japanese 'allergy' against warmaking, and WHY the Japanese find it so difficult to consider the thought of sending troops overseas again, even if its for peacekeeping.

As for the original thread title, I'm unsure. Hazell B does bring up an excellent point, that the economic contribution made to the UK economy by the slave trade lives on, even though current generations have had nothing to do with the trade itself.

I'd like to ask one question though. Have the Africans and their descendants across the Atlantic come to terms with how the Africans collaborated with the Europeans in the slave trade?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

It is connected!

Almost every town and city has buildings paid for by slave traders who wanted to be civic leaders. Schools, hospitals and all manner of establishments were funded by the men who dealt slaves. Those places are still in use. If we had had to pay to build them from taxes of the day, they simply wouldn't exist at all. Without them our relatives would never have had the life they had and quite a few of us lot wouldn't be here today.

The slave trade funded vast sections of UK life.


The ansestors of black slaves living in the UK have also benefitted though :confused:

Sorry can be used to easily .

[Hazell B]

The ansestors of black slaves living in the UK have also benefitted though :confused:



Yes they have. Thing is, they know how it was paid for, unlike so many whites who frankly don't seem to care at all. Imagine how you'd feel in their place.

It's okay saying sorry is used too much, but again I say it costs nothing. One politician or member of the Royal family simply saying we now regret the treatment of slaves would do the trick. It really is that simple.

These people where cargo, thrown overboard if they started to sneeze, given less air than bread fruit and yet some forum mebers are still saying it isn't important. I say it is.

[slinkster]

These people where cargo, thrown overboard if they started to sneeze, given less air than bread fruit and yet some forum mebers are still saying it isn't important. I say it is.

Like someone else has said, saying it's not important and apologising for it are two different things. I don't deny it, I don't deny the impact it had and I certainly don't deny that it was an awful thing... I don't have a problem with being educated about it and having days mark the abolition. But saying that I personally should apologise for it, or people today should apologise for it... seems... i don't know the word... like we're still accountable. And I don't feel we are. Our moral standings on these issues have changed, if anyone is in any doubt of that then it needs to be discussed, but otherwise I would hope that acceptance is more important than apologising. I'm aware that much of this country has been established on the backs of many people... over many battles, many imigrants and slaves etc etc. How far back are we going to go? Where do we end apologising for all the wrongs of the past and of our ancestors who knew no better?

I just feel there are more pressing matters... there are people STILL in the grips of similar trades and our attentions should be focussed on those.

[Roamy]

maybe you should apologize to the ones you left behind. Like in Sudan ETC. Offer citizenship to everyone in zimbabwe.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Turn that on it's head and ask who loses ;)

The gain bit is easy - some people will feel better. I frankly don't know who they are, but as this is a hot topic I guess somebody somewhere suggested an apology and somebody else said it would be a good thing. Therefore, even if it only serves those two people it must be good. No apology serves no people at all, but is making the news in a rather bad way.

As I said earlier, it hurts nobody to say sorry. It costs nothing. Why not then?

Hazell, I admire your belief that someone might benefit from this, but if it is a White guy who feels less guilty for it, it is just pablum, rubbish and just nice thoughts. That and 25 cents wont buy a cup of coffee. There is not a politician in the western world where slavery was part of the past that would advocate that slavery WASNT wrong. Even in the deep south of the US, no one in their right mind would state that Slavery was right. Not now and maybe not in the last 50 years.

Martin Luther King Jr. changed a lot of people's opinions in the US and Canada, and the civil rights amendments of the 60's in the US did much to fix many of the wrongs against black America. In nations of the Commonwealth, black slavery was outlawed essentially by Wilberforce and Lord Simcoe's efforts; and no one in the UK or Canada or any other nation in the Commonwealth had anything to do but encourage the end of slavery. Did we end it everywhere? No, in the far dark corners of Africa and the Arab world, slavery is still around, but I wont apologize for their evil towards their fellow man, and I cant feel guilt for it either. I think we should do more, but worthless platitudes wont cut it.

What in GOD's name does apolgizing for what the slave traders in the 1700's did would be accomplished? Black American and to a lesser extent, blacks in the UK and Canada may appreciate the apology, but I don't see some groundswell of desire to hear the apology. Oh they would take it, but then some minority of this group would go right back to blaming white society for many of their ills. The point is, some black activists who use this guilt we may have for slavery to attone for often take today's issues and attach it to the ill's of the society of large to attone for slavery. They use our "guilt" to try to con society at large to fix perceived problems. Fine, fix the problem, but spare me the guilt trip. I have never felt any guilt but I do feel that what my ancestors 5 generations before me did has little to do with me either. Let's address what is going on with society and fix it, not waste everyone's mental energy arguing about whether someone should feel guilt for things we have no control over.

Slavery sucked, it was outlawed, over 200 years has gone by since it was practiced in the UK and/or its colonies. Canada was a haven for freed slaves at the end of the underground railroad, and I don't feel any guilt that needs to be assauged by some blanket lame ass apology to people who were never held in any way as slaves. Guilt by people in western nations for their high standard of living is useless and misguided. You want a better world, do something to help, not talk about it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

One more point. Would a black man in America say he is better off because his ancestors were taken from Africa as slaves? He likely wouldn't, but blacks in Western society do have the all the rights whites do, and I doubt highly any black in western society would give up what they have now to move back to Africa. Should we as a society think slavery was a good thing? No, but sometimes, people have to look at where they would be if something DIDN'T happen also. I think we as a society, whether it be the US, Canada, the UK or Australia are better off for the racial diversity we have, and we wouldn't have had it to the extent we do if slavery wasn't part of society in the 1700's either. It doesn't make it right, but I do think we as a society have progressed past worthless platitudes and making real steps to making our societies work for all people. By enforcing the rights of the individual, you will do more than just talking about how sorry you are for something that happened 200 years ago.

[futuretiger9]

Whilst it seems unfair to force the modern generation to carry the can for the misdemeanours of its ancestors, that doesn't stop us from expressing remorse and regret for what happened.

[BDunnell]

Hazell, I admire your belief that someone might benefit from this, but if it is a White guy who feels less guilty for it, it is just pablum, rubbish and just nice thoughts. That and 25 cents wont buy a cup of coffee. There is not a politician in the western world where slavery was part of the past that would advocate that slavery WASNT wrong. Even in the deep south of the US, no one in their right mind would state that Slavery was right. Not now and maybe not in the last 50 years.

Martin Luther King Jr. changed a lot of people's opinions in the US and Canada, and the civil rights amendments of the 60's in the US did much to fix many of the wrongs against black America. In nations of the Commonwealth, black slavery was outlawed essentially by Wilberforce and Lord Simcoe's efforts; and no one in the UK or Canada or any other nation in the Commonwealth had anything to do but encourage the end of slavery. Did we end it everywhere? No, in the far dark corners of Africa and the Arab world, slavery is still around, but I wont apologize for their evil towards their fellow man, and I cant feel guilt for it either. I think we should do more, but worthless platitudes wont cut it.

What in GOD's name does apolgizing for what the slave traders in the 1700's did would be accomplished? Black American and to a lesser extent, blacks in the UK and Canada may appreciate the apology, but I don't see some groundswell of desire to hear the apology. Oh they would take it, but then some minority of this group would go right back to blaming white society for many of their ills. The point is, some black activists who use this guilt we may have for slavery to attone for often take today's issues and attach it to the ill's of the society of large to attone for slavery. They use our "guilt" to try to con society at large to fix perceived problems. Fine, fix the problem, but spare me the guilt trip. I have never felt any guilt but I do feel that what my ancestors 5 generations before me did has little to do with me either. Let's address what is going on with society and fix it, not waste everyone's mental energy arguing about whether someone should feel guilt for things we have no control over.

Slavery sucked, it was outlawed, over 200 years has gone by since it was practiced in the UK and/or its colonies. Canada was a haven for freed slaves at the end of the underground railroad, and I don't feel any guilt that needs to be assauged by some blanket lame ass apology to people who were never held in any way as slaves. Guilt by people in western nations for their high standard of living is useless and misguided. You want a better world, do something to help, not talk about it.

While I agree that apologising for slavery seems like a rather token gesture, many of the same points as you make could also apply to things like Veterans' Day, which commemorates many actions that are so far in the past that they are now irrelevant to many, and the effects of which no longer have a bearing on peoples' lives.

[viper_man]

Frankly I find the notion of apologising for something that ended 200 years ago totally ridiculous.

We should never forget, and we should look back with regret, but apologise? Sorry, but no.

It would serve no purpose, how would the black communities of the world benefit from it? It would simply be to give those countries who were at one time responsible for slavery an excuse to feel better about themselves, mainly my country.

Are we suggesting that every descendant or countryman of someone who was at one time involved in something bad should apologise? I wouldnt expect a German to come up to me and apologise for the war. I would appreciate regret and remembrance, as we already do, but an apology? No.
Who would apologise? The Queen? For what, something someone did 200 years ago and for which she obviously has nothing to do with? Who should she apologise to? Should she shout it from the rooftops?

Maybe the do gooders would instead like to focus their attention on the vastly more important modern day slavery that is occuring all over the world, rather than something that ceased 200 years ago?

[Hazell B]

While I agree that apologising for slavery seems like a rather token gesture, many of the same points as you make could also apply to things like Veterans' Day, which commemorates many actions that are so far in the past that they are now irrelevant to many, and the effects of which no longer have a bearing on peoples' lives.

My own thoughs too. However, I'm also starting to partly see Mark's points.

All the same, I remember a photo in The Express in 1999's 'Photos that changed the World' top 50 of black men who had been purchased having a roll call in Southampton docks .... in 1902. Slaves, though known by another name at that point, where still allowed to change ships and carry on their voyage here in the UK within living memory. It moved me far more than the little running girl screaming in a Napalm attack and the Asian prisoner being shot in the head, both far newer and more well known photos.

[airshifter]

The state of the US I live in just last month passed legislation making apologies for slavery.

I personally think it was wrong to make an apology. To recognize that it shouldn't have happened, thank those that opposed it and created change, or to condemn the act makes sense and I feel isn't wrong. But to aplogize for acts that current generations had no hand in isn't right.

I don't feel any current person should feel guilty of what those before them did, regardless of what it was, unless they still support it.

[jso1985]

I guess Bolivian socialists read this forum :mark:

today I heard on the radio, the chancellor(from the socialist party and a native) propossed that all whites in the country should put their signatures in the "sorry act" to apologize for coming to America and taking their lands...

why should I apologize for something I didn't do? :mark: last time I checked I was born in Bolivia and never took any land from any native