Who thinks Schumacher finally should retire? [Archive]

senna 88

14th May 2012, 09:45

When I was a kid I used to watch Schumacher, he was a great driver.
But since he came out of retirement he's just been crashing into other drivers, accidents involving him have been more frequent and it's not fair on the other drivers.
The Spanish GP yesterday just goes to prove my point.
He's beginning to remind me of Alain Prost (mainly in the 80's/90's, I don't know what he's like now) where it's the other drivers, the car, the pit crew, the teams fault...but never his.
Again, the Spanish GP yesterday proves my point.
The other drivers out there are significantly younger than he is with a lot quicker reflexes than his (due to his age, I'm sorry to say).
What's everyone else's opinion on this?

Guy.

P.S This is not a personal attack on neither Alain Prost or Michael Schumacher as I won't deny Alain his awesome driving skills (even now doing Ice Rallying) and Michael has done well considering.

Mark

14th May 2012, 10:12

Yes basically. He retired at the right time in the first place. His comeback hasn't worked.

Coming into the current champion team looked sensible on paper.

SGWilko

14th May 2012, 10:16

I think in fairness to Michael, he is probably as good as he was, but it is like in every sport, the competition is always getting better.

Age is against him of course, and maybe he is letting his frustrations rule his head and thus the silly mistakes become more frequent.

Had he not retired in '06, he may have taken the '07 title, and then retired on the ultimate high. If's and Buts....

Mark

14th May 2012, 11:00

7 World Championships aside, Schumacher was never a perfect driver, he quite often made mistakes under pressure. He just made up for that in every other area.

Dave B

14th May 2012, 11:45

Knock-on

14th May 2012, 12:06

Rosberg has demonstrated that, on its day, the car is capable of victory. That must weigh on Schumacher's mind and I don't think he'll consider his comeback a success unless he too chalks up a win. I hoped he'd do well in this phase of his career, I've a lot of respect for the ol' fella, but unless he can match his team mate I think he should bow out gracefully at the end of the season - and hopefully make way for Paul di Resta.

I'm getting really concerned about his increasingly desperate driving. I hope you're right and he does bow out gracefully but I think he's going to get more erratic.

The sooner PdR is in that drive, the better for everyone.

pino

14th May 2012, 12:34

I only know and still admire one Schumacher...the one from Benetton and Ferrari era ;) And the new Schumacher has nothing in common with that one...sadly.

aryan

14th May 2012, 13:20

SGWilko

14th May 2012, 13:27

He's now taken part in (I think) 43 grand prix since his return, and has not even stood on the podium once. And he's generaly been outpaced by his teammate.

Let's be honest, he's not going to get any faster next year. It's time to call it a day.

Yup - he should make like Wayne Sleep and do the Hot Shoe Shuffle off to the knackers yard...... ;)

Or make like a Unix server and SCO

N. Jones

14th May 2012, 14:41

I can't say it better that SGWilko did!

fandango

15th May 2012, 00:30

SGWilko

15th May 2012, 09:40

Amazing to think he once did most of that GP stuck in fifth and still finished second (if my memory is right). Not to mention the time he first won for Ferrari in the lashing rain.

Times have changed...

:up: For me, this confirms just how much ahead of him the 'new breed' in F1 is now. He set the benchmark, and now the new guard has moved the goalposts way out of his league.

Fair play to him, I'm sure the bank balance has been swollen a bit more, but it's not done his reputation any favours.

odykas

15th May 2012, 09:43

Please lock this thread and .. ban its starter :p :

Schumi is not going to retire :D

F1boat

15th May 2012, 09:44

I'm getting really concerned about his increasingly desperate driving. I hope you're right and he does bow out gracefully but I think he's going to get more erratic.

The sooner PdR is in that drive, the better for everyone.
I agree... :(

Knock-on

15th May 2012, 11:21

Please lock this thread and .. ban its starter :p :

Schumi is not going to retire :D

Ody, Ody, Ody <shakes head> :p

The Black Knight

15th May 2012, 12:19

7 World Championships aside, Schumacher was never a perfect driver, he quite often made mistakes under pressure. He just made up for that in every other area.

There has never been a perfect driver in F1, despite what some Senna fans would have you believe...

The Black Knight

15th May 2012, 12:27

For me, this confirms just how much ahead of him the 'new breed' in F1 is now. He set the benchmark, and now the new guard has moved the goalposts way out of his league.

Fair play to him, I'm sure the bank balance has been swollen a bit more, but it's not done his reputation any favours.

While we're slating Schuey here in all, I don't think it should be forgotten that most of his bad luck this season has been due to Mercedes, not himself. I have to rewatch the footage of what happened as I was at the race and it happened too quicly for me to be able to tell what went on with my eyes, but my inital impression from watching was that Senna did move in the braking zone but that it was still Schumacher's fault.

Either way it's the worst ever start to a season for him. It's a shame really because he has been driving quite well this year until now I feel. He outqualified Nico in the first two races of the season. His Malaysian race was over due to no fault of his own when I think it was Grosjean hit him on the first lap. So three out of the 5 races this season has seen him have very bad luck. To shout for his retirement over a silly incident such as yesterday is premature and hasty given what bad luck he has had in this season most of which were factors that were simply out of his control.

senna 88

15th May 2012, 13:59

There has never been a perfect driver in F1, despite what some Senna fans would have you believe...

Do you mean Ayrton or Bruno? :laugh:

Ayrton was far from a perfect driver (if he was, I don't think anyone would like him because no-one likes someone too perfect) he loved smashing his car up lol but that was because he was always driving on the edge and pushing the limits. :hot:
If (this is a huge if) Ayrton hadn't so sadly and suddenly lost his life I believe that he'd be more successful than Schumacher.
Both M. Schumacher and A. Senna are/were great people, did lots of charity work.

As for Bruno as far as I've seen it seems that the driving trait has skipped a generation but we'll have to wait and see, won't we? ;)
Maybe he should watch over a few of his uncles old races and take notes (no disrespect intended)

Guy.

F1boat

15th May 2012, 18:42

7 World Championships aside

hahah, you can't put them aside, but yes, there is no perfect driver and never was.

lotus rules

15th May 2012, 20:14

hahah, you can't put them aside, but yes, there is no perfect driver and never was.

negative- fangio was the best, great driver and a gentleman; 5 world championships in dangerous cars and he did it in his forties. even schumi says that.

schumi has to go, he blew it by coming back; he never was that good of a driver - he just benefitted from a great car and a skewed points sytem. plus he has an ego the size of australia. those three years he spent in "retirement" were three great years of racing. get rid of him!

steveaki13

15th May 2012, 21:17

To me Senna had the perfect mindset of being utterly ruthless with the balls to admit his actions or intent. He was far from the perfect driver though and like anyone he was human with misjudgements and mistakes. I like to see arrogance in a driver.

That is what has been great about Lewis he has that attitude, however like Senna and to maybe a greater extent, he has gotten himself mixed up in incidents at times.

Give him a car that is one of the best and he can lift himself above the rest.

Alonso is the same he is brilliantly talent, aggressive and consistant. He does not seem to get involved in incidents as much which is better, however he has a latin hot headedness and that is a weakness.

Vettel and Schumacher are largely similar, in that in a perfect car that works for them they are untouchable. Their ability to open up gaps in the first few laps and around pit stops, and team tactics get them ahead.

Schumacher is struggling, and I see this as his last season.

senna 88

15th May 2012, 21:48

Has anyone also noticed when things don't go Vettels way, he acts like a little kid and throws his dollies out the pram?
Like Schumacher did, and still does.

iva.rpm

15th May 2012, 23:35

I think Schumacher will hang his helmet by the end of this season. He's not as competitive as he used to be.

tfp

15th May 2012, 23:47

There has never been a perfect driver in F1, despite what some Senna fans would have you believe...

Agreed, I dont believe there is such a thing as a perfect driver, whether its Senna or the Shoe. The Shoe especially, if you ask Verstappen :p I wonder what hapenned with those supposed electronic aids...?

Not to take anything away from The Shoe, I still hope to see him on the podium before he retires.

Anyway, as the saying goes, a driver is only as good as his last race(exept in Massas case, where its about the last five races :D or maybe more, I loose count) and if he does get a good result, especially if it comes at the time to renew his contract, then maybe he will stay.

keysersoze

16th May 2012, 03:06

Well, notwithstanding his goof-up on Sunday, he's been closer to Nico this season. I'm utterly amazed at his pace, especially given the talent level of not only the drivers but the teams. Plus, the guy is flat old. Still quick, still fit.

I've never cheered for him and probably never will, but I will also never deprecate his stunning, unmatched resume.

fandango

16th May 2012, 08:12

It would be nice to keep this thread on-topic, I think.

There seems to be something inexorable going on with Schumacher, and it's because of his age. If he had had the same luck and bad judgement that Hamilton has had in the last year we probably wouldn't even be talking about him. But with Hamilton there has always been the feeling in the background that he can turn it around, that there's time to improve, re-focus and re-group. And Hamilton's showing signs of it. Wth Schumacher there's a feeling that the last grains of sand are slipping through the neck of the bottle.

At the circuit on Sunday they broadcast the radio messages on the loudspeakers, and when I heard the "What an idiot!" comment I assumed it was Senna talking, and I thought "he's got some ba**s to say that about a seven times WDC. But from Schumacher it just seems like the rantings of the old man down the street, just like his comments about Pirelli recently.

Things are so close now in F1, though, that it's not inconceivable that it all comes together for him in Monaco and he wins. However, everyone feels that, unlike the younger guys, he'll never get back to the level he was at in the past. If he could just have one really good result this year, and then call it a day, everyone would feel a lot more comfortable.

F1boat

16th May 2012, 09:53

negative- fangio was the best, great driver and a gentleman; 5 world championships in dangerous cars and he did it in his forties. even schumi says that.

schumi has to go, he blew it by coming back; he never was that good of a driver - he just benefitted from a great car and a skewed points sytem. plus he has an ego the size of australia. those three years he spent in "retirement" were three great years of racing. get rid of him!
Ridiculous. I never saw Fangio but it is well documented that he was top driver at the teams he drove, plus he always jumped ship to be in the top car, plus, while the racing was very dangerous, physically it was not as hard as today and the sport were less professional. In conclusion - Fangio undoubtedly is one of the best ever, even the best ever, maybe, but if you want, you can diminish every achievement, like you are doing with the case of Michael Schumacher. And sorry, but it was obvious that he is very fast and talented - both in his championship years and in the late 90s. Now, he is simply well past his prime.

Garry Walker

20th May 2012, 11:39

. But from Schumacher it just seems like the rantings of the old man down the street, just like his comments about Pirelli recently.

Schumacher finally had the balls to speak up, thankfully other drivers are beginning to gain some testicular fortitude as well and are going to speak up about those joke tyres.

Garry Walker

20th May 2012, 13:50

I don't think its a case of him having more balls than other drivers because lets face it most of them are pretty vocal when things happen they dislike. I think its more a case of Schumacher struggling more than most and venting his frustration at the tyres because he is unable to adapt fully. The balls in Schumachers case made their way swiftly to his forehead in Practice for the last race where he slowed down on the apex of the final chicane when he thought he had been held up by Hamilton and tried to make his point. He nearly caused an unnecessary accident and demonstrated he is a man under immense pressure.

Spain 2012 - Schumacher's Weekend - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqx67b_spain-2012-schumacher-s-weekend)

Actually, there hasn't been much wrong with his performances this year - He sucked bigtime in 2010, was better in 2011 and is even better now. He hasn't been slower than Rosberg (with the exception of China), just bad things have happened. His only fault so far has really been the crash with Senna, otherwise he has had mechanical problems and collisions caused by other drivers.

steveaki13

20th May 2012, 19:19

I agree he's been better, but that could all have been overshadowed by the idiotic move posted above. Cutting out a chicane so he could hinder Hamilton's exit at the final corner?! Thats bonehead stuff if ever I saw it. Missing his braking point and being indecisive behind Senna is just one of those things, a racing incident IMO. Giving him a 5 place grid penalty was harsh IMO in that instance but the practice incident deserved just that.

I agree really. The collision was just one of those things which happen sometimes in hard racing.

But the move on Hamilton was just not needed. Whatever reason is given from both sides it wasn't needed.

In other races this season he has had rotten luck.

SGWilko

21st May 2012, 10:11

I don't think its a case of him having more balls than other drivers because lets face it most of them are pretty vocal when things happen they dislike. I think its more a case of Schumacher struggling more than most and venting his frustration at the tyres because he is unable to adapt fully. The balls in Schumachers case made their way swiftly to his forehead in Practice for the last race where he slowed down on the apex of the final chicane when he thought he had been held up by Hamilton and tried to make his point. He nearly caused an unnecessary accident and demonstrated he is a man under immense pressure.

Spain 2012 - Schumacher's Weekend - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xqx67b_spain-2012-schumacher-s-weekend)

Classic road rage! He needs to try the roundabout over the M25 at Swanley!

He should go find a little guy and take it out on him!!!

D28

23rd May 2012, 01:17

Ridiculous. I never saw Fangio but it is well documented that he was top driver at the teams he drove, plus he always jumped ship to be in the top car, plus, while the racing was very dangerous, physically it was not as hard as today'....I'm not sure this statement is totally accurate. Two of his car changes were necessitated by his team folding, so he had to choose who to drive for. In 1954 obviously the best team was Mercedes and he made the right choice. Not very many drivers choose to disadvantage themselves with inferior equipment. In 1956 Lancia-Ferrari may have been the best car, but his teamates were very competitive.. For 1957 he left Ferrari more over personal conflicts with owner and team management, rather than to move to a supeior car, Vanwall may have offered more potential. In short Fangio was not always in the very best car, but made the most of his opportunities.

F1boat

23rd May 2012, 13:08

My point is that it is easy to discredit someone... I respect Juan Manuel tremendously... he was a true legend.

lotus rules

24th May 2012, 16:22

Ridiculous. I never saw Fangio but it is well documented that he was top driver at the teams he drove, plus he always jumped ship to be in the top car, plus, while the racing was very dangerous, physically it was not as hard as today and the sport were less professional. In conclusion - Fangio undoubtedly is one of the best ever, even the best ever, maybe, but if you want, you can diminish every achievement, like you are doing with the case of Michael Schumacher. And sorry, but it was obvious that he is very fast and talented - both in his championship years and in the late 90s. Now, he is simply well past his prime.

dude, i am saying that fangio was the best, he was the best and still is.
and the driving back then was hard, those drivers came out of a race exhausted, and they didn't have fancy drivers aids or water bottles.

Malbec

24th May 2012, 18:19

dude, i am saying that fangio was the best, he was the best and still is.
and the driving back then was hard, those drivers came out of a race exhausted, and they didn't have fancy drivers aids or water bottles.

Nor did they have fitness regimes, physios or even have to stop smoking to get fit. Most partied through the weekends when they weren't in the car and drank heavily. They looked exhausted because they weren't as fit as current drivers.

The g-forces they encountered in their cars were not much higher than you get now in a moderately priced sports car and are nothing compared to the forces modern drivers have to endure.

Different times, different conditions. Fangio and his colleagues had a completely different skillset from modern drivers and a different outlook on life. While Fangio was excellent and the best of his generation I do not think you can make an accurate direct comparison with a modern driver.

As for Schumi, he's in a fortunate position. His team will indulge his lack of points because of his marketing potential so he can pick and choose when to retire which is not a luxury other drivers have. I think he's driven very well this year except he's had appalling luck. As the season progresses I'm sure we'll see him get a few good results. I'm rooting for him as its good to see an old 'un stick it to the young'uns once in a while.

ArrowsFA1

24th May 2012, 19:18

Different times, different conditions. Fangio and his colleagues had a completely different skillset from modern drivers and a different outlook on life. While Fangio was excellent and the best of his generation I do not think you can make an accurate direct comparison with a modern driver.
True, but a class act is a class act whatever the era.

Rollo

24th May 2012, 21:28

Schumacher's record as far as I'm concerned is completely irrelevant to whether or not he should retire. From Mercedes-Benz' perspective, it should be about putting the best set of components to go racing with. To that end, the question needs to be asked is:

"Is Schumacher the best component currently available" - I think "No".

Realistically the best asnwer to that question is probably Gary Paffett who is under contract to HWA AG. Daimler AG could pull rank and put him into a Mercedes-Benz with very little effort.

F1boat

25th May 2012, 14:23

dude, i am saying that fangio was the best, he was the best and still is.

You can't go and state opinions like facts. Besides, is extremely difficult to make comparisons between drivers from different eras.

D28

25th May 2012, 16:00

N4D13

25th May 2012, 17:21

Fangio's winning per centage 24/ 51 starts still looks awfully impressive (47). So does Schumacher 91/292 (31). The trouble is that number declines the more races he enters, also true of some of his other statistics. I'm sure he is aware of this, and not much bothered by it.Probably we shouldn't be either.
Of course... one shouldn't rely much on statistics. Hamilton used to have a rather large win percentage in his first seasons, but since then, it has been reduced considerably. Meanwhile, Vettel's win percentage increased noticeably in 2012, but still... do you know who's the active driver with the largest podium percentage (after Schumacher)? It's neither Hamilton nor Vettel - Alonso, then Räikkönen. You can always try to read into some pieces of data, but they don't always tell the bigger picture.

lotus rules

25th May 2012, 21:04

Of course... one shouldn't rely much on statistics. Hamilton used to have a rather large win percentage in his first seasons, but since then, it has been reduced considerably. Meanwhile, Vettel's win percentage increased noticeably in 2012, but still... do you know who's the active driver with the largest podium percentage (after Schumacher)? It's neither Hamilton nor Vettel - Alonso, then Räikkönen. You can always try to read into some pieces of data, but they don't always tell the bigger picture.

you know it, stats are only PART of the big picture,
and in the big picture, Fangio Rules!! still the best!
even schumi said that. as for schumi in the big picture, yes he had talent but it's hard to call him the best yet. he was lucky to have a great car when others had crap, a points system that blew him to the top by the third race, and he pulled manuevers that he wouldn't accept if someone did them to him. in the big picture he's an average driver; other contemporaries like coultard or hakkinen would have the same record if they had had the same car. get rid of him! i notice he's very silent on the issue illegal electronic aids in his car. Forever Fangio!

Malbec

25th May 2012, 22:16

you know it, stats are only PART of the big picture,
and in the big picture, Fangio Rules!! still the best!
even schumi said that. as for schumi in the big picture, yes he had talent but it's hard to call him the best yet. he was lucky to have a great car when others had crap, a points system that blew him to the top by the third race, and he pulled manuevers that he wouldn't accept if someone did them to him. in the big picture he's an average driver; other contemporaries like coultard or hakkinen would have the same record if they had had the same car. get rid of him! i notice he's very silent on the issue illegal electronic aids in his car. Forever Fangio!

How can you claim that a man who physically wouldn't even fit in a modern F1 car is a better driver than Schumacher or whoever? How do you know whether he would have been able to achieve the levels of physical fitness required to complete a race these days given his age when he won his championships in his own day? How can you be so confident that he would master the electronics and system management skills also essential these days? You can't. Just as you couldn't know how hard or aggressive Schumacher would have been back in Fangio's day knowing that an accident probably meant death.

Motorsport is technology dependent and the sport has changed beyond recognition. Beyond the ability to merely drive fast the skillsets required have changed completely. It is therefore nearly impossible to compare drivers from the very beginning of the F1 era with the modern day, let alone claim that one is superior to the other.

I'm not denigrating Fangio, he was fantastic but you cannot claim that he was the best ever. We simply don't know because we can't compare.

F1boat

26th May 2012, 09:04

lotusrules, when you said that Michael and Mika are average, for me your post lost credibility. You like drivers of old, I can understand that. But to degrade two of the best drivers in modern era is ridiculous. Different times, different circumstances. For me, what Michael did with Ferrari is the greatest. You think different. That's why we have opinions. For facts we have statistics.

pino

26th May 2012, 09:32

Sorry guys but what Fangio has to do with this topic ? :confused:

ioan

26th May 2012, 14:24

i_max2k2

26th May 2012, 14:25

I'll answer it now, no he shouldn't retire just yet.

ShiftingGears

26th May 2012, 14:30

Yes, he should be immediately replaced by drivers like Paffett or De La Rosa.

donKey jote

26th May 2012, 14:56

Grandpa got Pole :eek:

I'll eat my hat :bandit:

Unless of course it was due to the stoopid Pirelli tyre lottery eh ioan ? :p

The Black Knight

26th May 2012, 15:35

Fantastic lap from Schumacher. There have been signs of the old spark returning this year and hopefully we're beginning to see the start of the fire burning for Schumacher again. If at 43 he can win a race that would be something unbelievable. He certainly deserves to be on pole tomorrow. Shame about the penalty.

markabilly

26th May 2012, 16:00

who is michael schumacher?

A FONDO

26th May 2012, 16:37

one fastest lap on a track suitable for the car and well-known from the years doesnt mean anything. his return is still a disaster, he only spoiled his image.

ArrowsFA1

26th May 2012, 17:51

Well he shouldn't retire before tomorrow that's for sure :D

Mia 01

26th May 2012, 19:58

Ms schooled the youngsters today, what a lap!

He still got atleast that onelap speed.

Zico

26th May 2012, 20:45

Ms schooled the youngsters today, what a lap!

He still got atleast that onelap speed.

Imo his vast experience should in theory serve him better over a full race distance than his one lap pace (especially around a track like Monaco) when you take his age and slowing reflexes into account.

I never was a great fan of Michael mainly due to his agressive and often dangerous driving but a single lap like that around such a demanding circuit and at his age quicker (In pretty much equal machinery) than the very best young drivers gets my full respect.

ioan

26th May 2012, 20:52

donKey jote

26th May 2012, 21:03

His best performance IMO was 2006 :p

MAX_THRUST

26th May 2012, 21:19

Well done for pole, idiot for hitting Senna though and wasting this oppotunity to lead the race from the start and maybe win. Interesting behaviour of MS at Spain with Lewis as shown on the BBC coverage today. He deliberately cut the track to block Lewis, when i reality Lewis had blocked him. MS would have been in the right, but we all know two wrongs dont make a right.

The Black Knight

26th May 2012, 21:34

One of his favorite circuits.
And his best ever quali, IMO, was the 1996 Monaco GP:

F1 Schumacher Monaco Monte Carlo 1996 The best Qualifying lap ever - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-X45KU2WMk)

It was certainly up there but I honestly felt that Malaysia 99 was as good as it gets. Taking pole by I think 9 tenths of a second. Masterful.

ArrowsFA1

26th May 2012, 21:50

All is well in ioanworld :D Schumi's on pole and F1 is as it should be again ;)

Except he's not, and his car is silver and it's a lottery anyway because of those hopeless Pirellis :dozey:

ioan

26th May 2012, 22:56

You're way to predictable grumpy ol' man.
Just for your personal info I don't give a damn about F1, but I effin' enjoy to rub it in to MS hatters. :laugh:

donKey jote

26th May 2012, 23:32

and you don't mean the MS mad hatters, do you? :p

odykas

26th May 2012, 23:46

His best performance IMO was 2006 :p

I guess it was the parking manoeuvre that made the difference :p :

gloomyDAY

27th May 2012, 01:38

I'm happy for Mike Shoe. He can still muster the good stuff.

I effin' enjoy to rub it in to MS hatters. :laugh: lolwut

http://www.alice-in-wonderland.net/alicepic/disney-movie/mad-hatter-4.jpg

Ranger

27th May 2012, 03:23

Michael should have been starting on pole today but for a dubious penalty.

Never was much of a fan but it would be great to see him win again.

http://mwittmann.wippiespace.com/schumi.gif

F1boat

27th May 2012, 15:07

Again poor luck...

Ranger

27th May 2012, 15:10

Terribly unlucky all weekend, he deserved a lot more.

N4D13

27th May 2012, 15:13

The Black Knight

28th May 2012, 09:13

It's his fourth retirement in six races, and at least two of them haven't come through his own fault - China and Monaco. I remember him crashing into Senna at Montmeló as well, so which one am I missing?

Edit: gearbox failure in Australia, I think. This guy can't catch a break...

In four out of six races so far, the team has screwed Schumacher royally - the above car retirements, plus Bahrain qualifying. Add to that the Mercedes' poor race performance in Malaysia, and you've got that he's only had a chance to do something in a single race, Montmeló, in which he crashed into Senna. I don't think anyone can blame him at this point.

Agreed. He has made one mistake this year and that was in Spain. Other than that I think he and Rosberg have been pretty evenly matched honestly. Rosberg was ahead in China, Schumacher was ahead in Spain and Malaysia. It's 3-3 in qualifying statistics. Not too bad for an old timer.

Ridiculous that he had another failure this weekend. I think we're beginning to see a resurgence in form though. He is looking better and better.

F1boat

28th May 2012, 09:50

i_max2k2

28th May 2012, 09:55

Mercedes seem very good team with Nico and easily the worst team with Michael. That's a little bit suspicious. Maybe there are team members who hate MS from the past? In three seasons almost all the problems happened with the car of Michael.

He actually did blow it out after the 2010 season, that his car was different then rosbergs on some occasions, I hope his luck changes now, but atleast the fact remains, however much he has slowed down in competitive machinery he can still hold his own, just before today's retirement he was lapping a second a lap faster then Massa, and had cut his lead from 22seconds to 16seconds, feel bad for him, in free air he was probably faster then anyone today.

Firstgear

28th May 2012, 15:37

It's his fourth retirement in six races......
There's a name for a driver with a string of bad luck like this. What was it again that the Ferrari fans used to call Kimi back in his McLaren days?
Ah yes, I remember now - Car Breaker.

jens

28th May 2012, 18:20

That was really unlucky for Schumi. Considering Rosberg was right at the tail of Webber in the end and Schumi should have started from pole, he may well have even won the race had the weekend gone uncompromised!

But when it comes to retiring, I have to maintain the previously made point that in future seasons the important thing is long-term perspective rather than current form...

Coming back to current season and string of unluck. It reminds me a bit of what happened ten years ago, but in reversed roles. In the first five races of the season Barrichello finished only once (!) in the all-conquering Ferrari, while Schumacher was running away with the championship. Now Rosberg has opened a big gap in the points with even a remote shot at the title.

Garry Walker

28th May 2012, 18:56

Mercedes seem very good team with Nico and easily the worst team with Michael. That's a little bit suspicious. Maybe there are team members who hate MS from the past? In three seasons almost all the problems happened with the car of Michael.

Don't be like those one of those posters who idolize MS to the degree that they post and actually think such stuff.
MS has some bad luck, okay, he had wonderful luck at Ferrari. Sometimes just those things happen in racing.
The main thing for him is that he is on pace (well, with those absolute joke tyres things aren't that clear).

F1boat

30th May 2012, 10:02

Don't be like those one of those posters who idolize MS to the degree that they post and actually think such stuff.
MS has some bad luck, okay, he had wonderful luck at Ferrari. Sometimes just those things happen in racing.
The main thing for him is that he is on pace

I don't think that he is currently the best driver in F1, but I do think that Mercedes are highly unprofessional when preparing his car, to the point that conspiracy theories almost look credible.

A FONDO

30th May 2012, 15:10

Schumacher's disastrous return to F1 makes me think how unbelievably important is to have "suitable" rules and regulations and how easily drivers and teams may change from hero to zero.

The Black Knight

31st May 2012, 11:56

Schumacher's disastrous return to F1 makes me think how unbelievably important is to have "suitable" rules and regulations and how easily drivers and teams may change from hero to zero.

Schumacher himself has been anything but a disaster this year. 3-3 on qualifying ratio with Nico. Got a pole in Monaco.

He has been let down by the team 4 out of 6 races this year. Malaysia he got spun on the first lap by Grosjean I think. None through his own doing except Spain. Were it not for Mercedes blunders he'd probably been in a hunt for the championship and you say he has been disastrous? Not on your life man. He has actually really impressed me again this year. We all know he won't be the Schumacher of old again but he is proving this year that he deserves his place on the grid.

Mercedes have been the disaster this year, not Schumacher.

nigelred5

31st May 2012, 16:36

Schumacher himself has been anything but a disaster this year. 3-3 on qualifying ratio with Nico. Got a pole in Monaco.

He has been let down by the team 4 out of 6 races this year. Malaysia he got spun on the first lap by Grosjean I think. None through his own doing except Spain. Were it not for Mercedes blunders he'd probably been in a hunt for the championship and you say he has been disastrous? Not on your life man. He has actually really impressed me again this year. We all know he won't be the Schumacher of old again but he is proving this year that he deserves his place on the grid.

Mercedes have been the disaster this year, not Schumacher.

THIS year? Mercedes is just this year providing him with a competetive car capable of wins. Save for the season as Brawn where they had a decided technical advantage for more than half the year and Button managed to hold on to his point lead, that team has been a disaster no matter what it has been named. Had Schummi returned to F1 in a RedBull or a McLaren three years ago, I suspect we'd be talking about an 8 time WDC.

N4D13

31st May 2012, 17:45

THIS year? Mercedes is just this year providing him with a competetive car capable of wins. Save for the season as Brawn where they had a decided technical advantage for more than half the year and Button managed to hold on to his point lead, that team has been a disaster no matter what it has been named. Had Schummi returned to F1 in a RedBull or a McLaren three years ago, I suspect we'd be talking about an 8 time WDC.
Considering his performances in 2010 and 2011, I believe that's way too much to say. He's raised his game in 2012, but he wasn't a match for Rosberg in 2010 and 2011.

The Black Knight

31st May 2012, 18:39

THIS year? Mercedes is just this year providing him with a competetive car capable of wins. Save for the season as Brawn where they had a decided technical advantage for more than half the year and Button managed to hold on to his point lead, that team has been a disaster no matter what it has been named. Had Schummi returned to F1 in a RedBull or a McLaren three years ago, I suspect we'd be talking about an 8 time WDC.

Not to imply he was a disaster last year either but he wasn't at the performance level he is now and was unable to live with Nico over the previous two years.

F1boat

1st June 2012, 08:56

THIS year? Mercedes is just this year providing him with a competetive car capable of wins. Save for the season as Brawn where they had a decided technical advantage for more than half the year and Button managed to hold on to his point lead, that team has been a disaster no matter what it has been named. Had Schummi returned to F1 in a RedBull or a McLaren three years ago, I suspect we'd be talking about an 8 time WDC.

If car#7 has problems in almost every race, it doesn't matter how competitive it is pacewise. Merc are doing fine with Nico, but what is happening to Michael is a disgrace, unbelievable.

nigelred5

1st June 2012, 20:17

I'm sorry, but I've apparently missed all the races Nico has won in the MERC over the past three seasons... I stand by what I said, in a car with the performance advantage schummi enjoyed whail at Ferrari and Benetton, like the RB the past two seasons, he'd have added well to his career win tally. The merc simply was not a contending car the past two seasons. I believe it IS very competetive this year and no, I don't believe he should pack it in. I say he's still better than 50% of the drivers on the grid many of them are half his age. HE said he was ok supporting NICO and making the car better. Teams rarely have truly equal cars and support for their drivers, and Merc is no exception.

The Black Knight

1st June 2012, 23:29

If car#7 has problems in almost every race, it doesn't matter how competitive it is pacewise. Merc are doing fine with Nico, but what is happening to Michael is a disgrace, unbelievable.

I think they will probably sort that. It is bad what is happening alright but tis nothing that didn't happen to some of Schuey's teammates in his Ferrari era. Still, I'm sure that Merc will sort it.

F1boat

5th June 2012, 09:28

I think they will probably sort that. It is bad what is happening alright but tis nothing that didn't happen to some of Schuey's teammates in his Ferrari era. Still, I'm sure that Merc will sort it.

I can't remember such bad series for a teammate of Michael, honestly. Rubens and Eddie were simply never that good.

SGWilko

6th June 2012, 12:31

I can't remember such bad series for a teammate of Michael, honestly. Rubens and Eddie were simply never that good.

Only time Eddie was quick was running to the bank, or clambering out the window of some fillie's gaff before the old man got upstairs!

F1boat

7th June 2012, 10:33

Eddie amused me :) I still remember his odd wins in 1999, he almost won the WDC...

SGWilko

7th June 2012, 13:10

Eddie amused me :) I still remember his odd wins in 1999, he almost won the WDC...

That he didn't, even with Salo and the Shoe playing rear gunner for him, show's just how poor he really was. One of life's natural No. 2's is Ediie.

F1boat

7th June 2012, 14:20

I think that he was OK, not a great driver, but not a terrible one either. And he was surely annoying to his rivals ;)

SGWilko

7th June 2012, 14:50

I think that he was OK, not a great driver, but not a terrible one either. And he was surely annoying to his rivals ;)

He was always one of those 'great on a good day', but never seemed to manage to have a good day co-incide with a race!

F1boat

8th June 2012, 08:08

He was always one of those 'great on a good day', but never seemed to manage to have a good day co-incide with a race!
Hahahahah, thank you sir, you made my day! It is true, however, that from what I remember McLaren were quite perplexed about how this guy could fight them for the WDC... when Michael broke his leg, they expected to finish 1-2 in the championship. Instead they barely beat Irvive and Frentzen!

The Black Knight

8th June 2012, 12:21

Hahahahah, thank you sir, you made my day! It is true, however, that from what I remember McLaren were quite perplexed about how this guy could fight them for the WDC... when Michael broke his leg, they expected to finish 1-2 in the championship. Instead they barely beat Irvive and Frentzen!

Yes, but I'll always remember the 1999 championship as the Championship nobody wanted to win. All the contenders seemed to be making all the necessary mistakes required just at the right moment to make sure they didn't wrap it up.

It was a missed opportunity for MS, much like 97 and 98. Frightening really if you think about it, had luck favored him a little more those years we could be calling him a 10 time WDC and even then there would still be idiots claiming that he was never a great driver and it was all down to the car. Go figure!

i_max2k2

8th June 2012, 20:38

Yes, but I'll always remember the 1999 championship as the Championship nobody wanted to win. All the contenders seemed to be making all the necessary mistakes required just at the right moment to make sure they didn't wrap it up.

It was a missed opportunity for MS, much like 97 and 98. Frightening really if you think about it, had luck favored him a little more those years we could be calling him a 10 time WDC and even then there would still be idiots claiming that he was never a great driver and it was all down to the car. Go figure!

Yep I have always looked at those years and wondered the same, I think along with senna, he is up there to have had the best of combination of what a competitive racing driver should have to be successful, still in awe of the fact that he got the best qualifying time in Monaco at 43 in such a competitive season.

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Garry Walker

8th June 2012, 21:49

MS to win canada :up:

I don't think that he is currently the best driver in F1, but I do think that Mercedes are highly unprofessional when preparing his car, to the point that conspiracy theories almost look credible.
No, they don't look credible.

If car#7 has problems in almost every race, it doesn't matter how competitive it is pacewise. Merc are doing fine with Nico, but what is happening to Michael is a disgrace, unbelievable.

That happened at Ferrari with Schumi's teammates. Remember what happened with Rubens in 2002? Even worse than what MS has had. Sometimes things just don't work out, it doesn't have to be a conspiracy.

jens

9th June 2012, 08:52

Sometimes things just don't work out, it doesn't have to be a conspiracy.

Pretty much so. It is also worth reminding 2001, when Häkkinen had a horrible start into the season. After the first seven races he merely had 4 points, while Coulthard had 40! This is what unluck can do to a driver.

F1boat

9th June 2012, 09:09

Yes, but I'll always remember the 1999 championship as the Championship nobody wanted to win. All the contenders seemed to be making all the necessary mistakes required just at the right moment to make sure they didn't wrap it up.

True. Hakkinen retired from the lead at least four times, maybe more (Oz, Imola, Germany and Monza I remember quite well).

F1boat

9th June 2012, 09:39

Ah, I think that Michael was easily the best that year, in the car in which Barrichello failed to win the race, he dominated easily. Mika was good, however, very good, on his day invincible.

steveaki13

9th June 2012, 17:01

Hakkinen only scored 7 points in the first 7 races or something in 2001, or something like that, until he won at Silverstone then had a better second half season, but Coulthard looked more consistant that season. And Michael I think was best.

Still each to there own.

jens

9th June 2012, 17:39

Yeah 2001 was a year McLaren threw the title away through unreliability at the start but Mika still came away looking like the best driver that year IMO.

I suspect you might be confusing 2000 and 2001.

rjbetty84

9th June 2012, 19:01

Michael's done alright this year, no?

Australia: Qualifies 4th, Gearbox Failure in race while running 3rd
Malaysia: Qualifies 3rd, close to pole. Problems in race limit him to 10th, but utterly annihilated (sp?) Rosberg
China: Well of Rosberg's pace, but starts on front row and runs 2nd till mechanical failure at 1st stop.
Bahrain: Sent to back of grid, finishes 10th. Pace a bit off Rosberg in quali, but more equal in race (as in 2011)
Spain: Qualifies a little off Rosberg, crashed in race. I didn't see, but heard he was going FAST at the time.
Monaco: On pole. Would have won. Nuff said.

ShiftingGears

10th June 2012, 02:26

Just a differing opinion Jens. :)

Hakkinen the best driver in 2001? The year when he finished 5th in the championship?

The year when seven out of the eight times that the McLaren drivers both finished a race, Coulthard placed higher?

Garry Walker

10th June 2012, 13:43

Yeah 2001 was a year McLaren threw the title away through unreliability at the start but Mika still came away looking like the best driver that year IMO. You must be thinking of 2000.

Just a differing opinion Jens. :)

No, you must be confusing the years, otherwise I fear for your sanity and deeply. DC kept destroying Mika that year in both quali and in races, after MH lost motivation after the car failure at Melbourne. Throughout the year he only had 2 good races, which he actually both won, but most of the time he was nowhere.

F1boat

11th June 2012, 11:59

Merc fails Michael another time... pathetic.

Knock-on

11th June 2012, 12:10

Would it have made much difference if he had finished. Outclasses by his team mate again

odykas

11th June 2012, 12:49

Don't worry Knock On. He will find something to blame :laugh:

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 16:05

Would it have made much difference if he had finished. Outclasses by his team mate again

Are you trolling again?

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 17:49

I quite agree. It was unfortunate to see him retire with such a silly failure, but the truth is Nico completely outperformed him once again IMO. He has moments of brilliance, moments of bad luck and moments in the wilderness.

1) In qualifying Mercedes doesn't tell him that he is running out of time and therefor he cannot do a fast lap
2) In race 1 second behind Nico and being held up, Mercedes calls him to pit - he gets stuck behind another load of drivers (di Resta) and is unable to pass, as was the case for quite a few drivers yesterday actually. So in reality he was screwed over by bad choices by the pitlane in both quali and in the race.

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 18:11

Life's a real b!tch sometimes and I can sympathise with Michael. It can't be easy for him. He may have shown a vast improvement this season, but it really should have come alot sooner IMO. Yesterday was full of team blunders and poor luck, but he's had his fair share of brain fades of late with have cost him dearly. His crash with Senna in Spain was a prime example of getting it completely wrong and costing himself and the team valuable points. I hope to see him improve further because it is good for the sport, but the truth of the matter is, he is no longer as good as he was and able to realistically challenge the younger guys in the top teams. I hope he steps away with dignity at the end of the season and allows a driver with long term potential to build himself within the team and bring Merc the results they are very capable of achieving.
Other than the very obvious idiotic move on Senna, what other brain fades has he had this year?
Perhaps Shanghai where his tyre fell off?

Knock-on

11th June 2012, 18:35

Are you trolling again?

Was he or was he not outclassed by Nico?

Make excuses all you want but if this was Kimi you would call him a Car breaker. When the car isn't breaking then he's bumping and if not, manages to finish with a single point. Is that all the car's capable of?

You're getting more like ioan every day. Cry me a river :p

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 18:47

Was he or was he not outclassed by Nico?

Make excuses all you want but if this was Kimi you would call him a Car breaker. When the car isn't breaking then he's bumping and if not, manages to finish with a single point. Is that all the car's capable of?

You're getting more like ioan every day. Cry me a river :p
Are you menstruating?

Find a post where I have ever called Kimi a car-breaker or hell, even find a post where I have attacked him with venom. Funnily enough you won't find one because he is among my very favourite drivers.

But really, your "arguments" are on the level of a justin bieber fanboy here, I expected somewhat more from you.

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 18:59

I wouldn't have said it was a brain fade with his tyre falling off in China but be my guest on that one. His attempted block on Hamilton during practise for the Spanish GP springs to mind, although it wasn't during a race.

The tyre falling off thing was an obvious joke. The incident at Spain `with Lewis was not a brain-fade, but just a stupid move which doesn't in any way make his season better or worse quality wise. Bieber did worse to Senna at Canada. The reality is that other than the incident with Senna, he hasn't really done anything wrong this year.

That incident alone was lucky not to attract a ban for the race or at least being sent to the back of the grid. When you consider the penalty Lewis recieved for not having enough fuel, a reprimand for taking a short cut and attempting to stop a competitor on the final chicane is rather inconsistant IMO. The penalty for Lewis was a joke.

To be honest Michael has lost so many front wings over the past 2 and a half season's due to mistakes its difficult to filter them out between seasons. Its probably as difficult as finding an English Schumacher supporter at Silverstone. :D
So basically when you said he has had many brain-fades as of late, you really had one example to show and the rest come from 1 year ago which have little to do with the current situation?

jens

11th June 2012, 19:01

Are you menstruating?

Find a post where I have ever called Kimi a car-breaker or hell, even find a post where I have attacked him with venom. Funnily enough you won't find one because he is among my very favourite drivers.

But really, your "arguments" are on the level of a justin bieber fanboy here, I expected somewhat more from you.

This kind of post is pretty low-class. You have been warned for insults in the past and basically this is another one, which warrants a warning...

Also Knock-on and whoever discusses with Garry Walker should avoid getting personal as well. You know that after that the quality of discussion goes off the rails.

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 19:03

jens

11th June 2012, 19:12

Just out of curiosity, did you by any chance see the post to which I replied?

Yes, I did. And this is why I mentioned others in my reply as well. :)

Firstgear

11th June 2012, 19:12

Garry, you predicted Michael would thrash Nico when his comeback was anounced. Being wrong seems to be a difficult pill for you to swallow. What Michael is going through - call it mistakes, team error, karma, whatever - aren't making a huge difference. As Knock-on pointed out, when he finished a race - he comes in 10th and gets one point. At that rate, even if he had a repeat of the increadible good fortune reliability wise he had at Ferrari, that would still leave him with 7 races X 1 point = 7 points. It brings him up above the Torro's into 16th in the standings. Compare that with Nico (the guy that was supposed to get thrashed) with 67 points, in 5th overall.

I think Nico enjoys having Michael as a teammate just about as much as Alonso enjoys having Massa.

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 19:13

I'm not looking to get personal here either so I'll keep my opinions on this one and take the stage door to the left lol. :)

I am not sure what's the problem, there has been no personal attacks from me here, not at least against you.

jens

11th June 2012, 19:15

Garry Walker

11th June 2012, 19:21

Garry, you predicted Michael would thrash Nico when his comeback was anounced. Absolutely. Little did I predict MS would suck so much for the next 1,5 years. Thankfully, those 1,5 years have passed.

Being wrong seems to be a difficult pill for you to swallow. Absolutely, I hate being wrong, but I am man enough to admit to my mistakes. As I have proven right here.

What Michael is going through - call it mistakes, team error, karma, whatever - aren't making a huge difference. As Knock-on pointed out, when he finished a race - he comes in 10th and gets one point. By any chance do you know how those 10th places came? One came after he had qualified 3rd and was rammed out in the 2nd corner by Grosjean, after what he ended the 1st lap in 16th place. In the very same race, Nico Rosberg finished 30 seconds behind MS, despite having no such problems and despite being in 6th place after lap 1.
At Bahrain, he had a car problem in qualifying and due to that his race was pretty much ruined from that point on, in fact, to make things worse his gearbox was changed as well, so he started from pos.22. Quite a good race by him actually.

At that rate, even if he had a repeat of the increadible good fortune reliability wise he had at Ferrari, that would still leave him with 7 races X 1 point = 7 points. It brings him up above the Torro's into 16th in the standings. Compare that with Nico (the guy that was supposed to get thrashed) with 67 points, in 5th overall. This really isn't a very strong analysis.

I think Nico enjoys having Michael as a teammate just about as much as Alonso enjoys having Massa.
I think it is far from that

Firstgear

11th June 2012, 20:52

Absolutely. Little did I predict MS would suck so much for the next 1,5 years. Thankfully, those 1,5 years have passed.

Absolutely, I hate being wrong, but I am man enough to admit to my mistakes. As I have proven right here.

By any chance do you know how those 10th places came? One came after he had qualified 3rd and was rammed out in the 2nd corner by Grosjean, after what he ended the 1st lap in 16th place. In the very same race, Nico Rosberg finished 30 seconds behind MS, despite having no such problems and despite being in 6th place after lap 1.
At Bahrain, he had a car problem in qualifying and due to that his race was pretty much ruined from that point on, in fact, to make things worse his gearbox was changed as well, so he started from pos.22. Quite a good race by him actually.

This really isn't a very strong analysis.

I think it is far from that

As far as the analysis - lets wait til later in the season. Maybe I'll have to admit my mistake, as you have done above.

Teammates - If you were an F1 driver, what would put a bigger smile on your face, thrashing Massa or Schumacher.

Knock-on

11th June 2012, 23:46

This kind of post is pretty low-class. You have been warned for insults in the past and basically this is another one, which warrants a warning...

Also Knock-on and whoever discusses with Garry Walker should avoid getting personal as well. You know that after that the quality of discussion goes off the rails.

I have no problem with Gazza's language, tone or content. I appreciate that these days the forum has become almost clinical in it's conversation but IMHO that is to it's detriment.

Sometimes I miss the old days when we could point out when people are defending the indefensible without having to use sanitised language. Hell, we could even use bad language, bad grammer or god forbid, bad spelling.

I suppose us Dinosaurs are approaching extinction and I say bring it fecking on...

BTW Garry, I like post #122 but give up on Chop Chop. He's well done. ;)

Malbec

12th June 2012, 19:21

Teammates - If you were an F1 driver, what would put a bigger smile on your face, thrashing Massa or Schumacher.

This season, I'd say beating Massa. It wouldn't give me much satisfaction beating a guy whose car doesn't even work.

i_max2k2

12th June 2012, 23:01

I frankly see some pretty stupid reasoning on how people are blaming him for his run this season, now this is not really what was definitely going to happen, but at least it gives us a look at the best case scenario.

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/analysis-shows-schu-could-be-leading-title-chase/

Even in Canada during qualifying he was faster then rosberg in q1 and q2, and was looking pretty strong for the race, because of his teams mistake he ended up 9th. He has had a measure for Rosberg for most of this season pace wise, and I don't see any reason for him deserving any thrashing from anyone.

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Knock-on

13th June 2012, 11:00

ArrowsFA1

13th June 2012, 12:41

The thread question infers the decision is up to Michael, not Mercedes, but isn't it more likely that as happened in 2006 the team will make the decision for him?

ShiftingGears

13th June 2012, 12:44

Fastest in Q1 and Q2? What's that got to do with the price of fish?

Q1 and Q2 are all about getting through whereas Q3 is when they race at the fastest pace possible. You don't get points for Qualifying but even if you did, Q1 and Q2 are irrelevant.

He is suggesting that if there wasn't miscommunication between the pitwall and Schumcher leading to him missing his final run he would have been able to qualify much higher than he did.

BDunnell

13th June 2012, 12:45

I have no problem with Gazza's language, tone or content. I appreciate that these days the forum has become almost clinical in it's conversation but IMHO that is to it's detriment.

He may think he's being amusing, outspoken, iconoclastic or whatever, but in truth he's just plain rude. I don't think this is a positive trait in anyone. jens is quite right.

BDunnell

13th June 2012, 12:46

The thread question infers the decision is up to Michael, not Mercedes, but isn't it more likely that as happened in 2006 the team will make the decision for him?

I think a decision to get rid of him on the basis of his having just two points at this stage would be highly unfair. If he can string together a run of results of whatever kind in the second half of the season, then he can be judged on that, but not before.

ShiftingGears

13th June 2012, 12:46

The thread question infers the decision is up to Michael, not Mercedes, but isn't it more likely that as happened in 2006 the team will make the decision for him?

I think the fact that Brawn is continuing his position within the team beyond this year suggests that Mercedes will place faith in Michael making the correct decision with his career.

jens

13th June 2012, 13:45

I think a decision to get rid of him on the basis of his having just two points at this stage would be highly unfair.

The issue here is the future of Mercedes. They have to hire a driver for future seasons based on potential, how are they going to perform in subsequent seasons. Not keep a very old driver (by F1 terms!) until he performs like Hill in '99 or Coulthard in '08. IMO such kind of situations should be prevented, before you know you have hung onto a driver for too long already.

The Black Knight

16th June 2012, 14:52

The issue here is the future of Mercedes. They have to hire a driver for future seasons based on potential, how are they going to perform in subsequent seasons. Not keep a very old driver (by F1 terms!) until he performs like Hill in '99 or Coulthard in '08. IMO such kind of situations should be prevented, before you know you have hung onto a driver for too long already.

Considering Schumi's improvement over this season I find it highly unlikely that he will end up like Hill or Coulthard anytime soon. He's now matching his teammate more often than not and he is improving all the time. For a 43 year old it is nothing short of impressive. I don't think that he will reach the point of slowing down anytime soon. If anything he is getting faster and faster again :) Great to see. If Mercedes can just give him a reliable car now that would be great. Amazing really that he could be in championship contention were it not for all his failures this year along with that one mistake in Spain.

jens

16th June 2012, 20:56

Hill won a race in late 1998 too and seemed to be on top of his game. A slump can happen suddenly and unexpectedly like we have seen with Button. And at Schumacher's age he is more prone to drops in performance.

i_max2k2

17th June 2012, 05:05

That's one example, but there isn't a science which says when your 44yrs, 32 days 4 hours old you'll suddenly become a slow f1 driver. Sorry felt like laugh :) But he has only got better in his return, and I don't expect him to leave at a point when the car could be a solid contender next year.

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ArrowsFA1

17th June 2012, 08:33

The issue here is the future of Mercedes.
Agreed :up:

For a 43 year old it is nothing short of impressive.
Impressive it may be but age is irrelevant, as are past performances. Sentiment, we are always told, has no place in F1 never better illustrated when Ferrari put Badoer in their car. Performance and results are everything..

Knock-on

18th June 2012, 15:23

Schumcher has shown a lot more pace this year although whether this pace would have developed into the results people seem to assume is very subjective. Certainly, Paul Hembury was very impressed with his performance in Monaco and is tipping him for a win in the European GP. Wishfull thinking IMHO but he's entitled to whatever he thinks.

Someone made the points comparison on another thread about Button V's Hamilton. Worth noting that Nico V's Schumy is 298 V's 150.

At the end of the day, reliability and luck tends to even itself out and lets face it, Schumy had a lot of luck earlier in his creer but being outscored by your team mate by 2:1 over 2.5 years is a consistant trent in my opinion and I don't even rate Nico as a top flite driver.

Garry Walker

24th June 2012, 11:21

I have no problem with Gazza's language, tone or content. I appreciate that these days the forum has become almost clinical in it's conversation but IMHO that is to it's detriment.

Sometimes I miss the old days when we could point out when people are defending the indefensible without having to use sanitised language. Hell, we could even use bad language, bad grammer or god forbid, bad spelling. dunnell will get you for that bad spelling comment.
But obviously I agree with your post.

BTW Garry, I like post #122 but give up on Chop Chop. He's well done. ;)
Chop Chop will cause some mental anguish to quite a few people here still :D

He may think he's being amusing, outspoken, iconoclastic or whatever, but in truth he's just plain rude. I don't think this is a positive trait in anyone. jens is quite right. I hope you had a good weekend and didn't get too drunk :

Knock-on

24th June 2012, 12:46

Theres not many fans of backmarkers (monkeys) on here, so I doubt he'll cause much anguish unless he is lapped again today and makes a meal out of getting out of the way of Nico and Co.. :p :D

:laugh: Normal qualification is resumed. He has his old team mate behind him and Alonso in front. The potential for crashing is HIGH!!

Paul Crossling

24th June 2012, 14:36

While Schumacher's return has not been a failure I do think it is time to step aside. Paul Di Resta is now a much stronger driver and a prospect for the future who will put Rosberg under pressure and in turn move Mercedes towards the front on a more regular basis

Garry Walker

24th June 2012, 14:52

donKey jote

24th June 2012, 14:55

I'd forgotten about Alonso being so far back lol. Well lets hope for some exciting mid field racing with plenty of anguish then :)

http://i46.tinypic.com/hv9ul3.gif :p

F1boat

24th June 2012, 14:56

Alonso, Vettel and Michael.

Knock-on

24th June 2012, 15:07

Consdering MS took a podium today, dare I say, it isn't looking like your post was exactly a quality post

He benefitted from some great fortune otherwise would have been 7th or less. Strong drive but he was very lucky.

Usual quality of posting from you Garry. :p

steveaki13

24th June 2012, 15:09

He drove well and kept calm through all the chaos and deserved his podium. Lets hope this changes his luck and he can get a win.

Garry Walker

24th June 2012, 15:14

He benefitted from some great fortune otherwise would have been 7th or less. Strong drive but he was very lucky.

Usual quality of posting from you Garry. :p

Considering how much bad luck he has had, it was high time he got some good luck this year :D

As usual, I have to teach you how things really are :p

Dave B

24th June 2012, 15:39

Who thinks Schumacher finally should retire?

Mark Webber...

i_max2k2

24th June 2012, 16:31

He benefitted from some great fortune otherwise would have been 7th or less. Strong drive but he was very lucky.

Usual quality of posting from you Garry. :p

Yes and so did Alonso, Kimi, Webber, Rosberg, Paul Di Resta, Hulkenberg or pretty much the top 10, he had already overtaken Hulkenberg before Maldonado and Hamailton came together, and was running 5th, so no he woudn't have finished 7th, and he probably would have overtaken Hamilton too if he raced till the end.

steveaki13

24th June 2012, 20:46

I am never one to buy into the luck arguement.

Look back over F1's history and over half the races have had leaders retire probably.

So One third of race winners probably have been lucky. It doesn't devalue it. It is part of motorsport. Build a car to last the race and have a driver who doesn't make many mistakes.

To finish First, First you must Finish.

F1boat

24th June 2012, 20:47

He was lucky in that one race. He deserved it after so many rotten races.

52Paddy

24th June 2012, 21:33

Given the right circumstances, he could win a race before the year is out.

Garry Walker

9th July 2012, 19:43

Well, this thread is awfully quiet lately.

steveaki13

9th July 2012, 20:22

Well, this thread is awfully quiet lately.

I clearly still has it. The car is not awesome and people talk about Rosberg pummelling him. But he has retired 5 times to Nico's 0. 4 of those times were car faults and one a mistake.

In 3 of the 4 races he has finished he was ahead of Nico. It was only Nico's great win in China that stands out. It was a great win, but remember Michael was running high up early on 3rd I think. But retired.

So I think they are equal really.

Even yesterday, while Mercedes car was terrible, Michael battled so hard and drove a tough race, while Nico was trailing around with the Toro Rosso's.

Michael Schumacher = Class.

rjbetty

9th July 2012, 22:06

Yeah, in Australia he qualified 4th with Rosberg 7th, was quicker in the race and would have finished 5th probably. Rosbger was on course for 8th till he lost that.

In Malaysia Michael was 3rd on the grid with Rosberg 8th (becoming 7th). In the race Michael collided with Grosjean and that wasn't necessarily even his fault. He may have finished only 10th, but notice despite his setback he still finished 29sec ahead!

China was the only race in which Rosberg had a convincing advantage over Schumacher, though Rosberg deserves big credit.

In Bahrain Michael was not really much slower in qualifying, but probably equal or sloghtly quicker in the race (just like a typical 2011 race) but Michael had to start from the back through no fault of his own.

Another 2011 style race in Spain with Michael a bit behind in qualifying but matching Nico's pace in the race? (I don't know I didn't watch)

Michael was quicker all weekend in Monaco, and given the that Nico Rosberg hounded Webber all the way in the race and spoke of having a quicker car, and given that Michael tends to do better in races than in qualifying compared to Rosberg, it is not unreasonable at all to suggest he could have, and probably would have won.

In Canada Michael matched Nico and may have edged him without any problems. I certainly don't believe Nico had much advantage there.

In Valencia Michael was slightly slower by his own admission in qualifying, but finished 3rd in the race. Rosberg was 6th.

At Silverstone Michael fairly creamed Rosberg, had over +0.5sec faster race lap and finished 28sec ahead (also average of more than 0.5 sec/lap). Michael also gridded 3rd, 10 places ahead of Rosberg.

Conclusion: Nico was only clearly better in China.
Michael was clearly better in Australia, Malaysia, Monaco and Silverstone.
On balance, the rest of the races are pretty much even?

Yet people will tell you Nico is running rings around Michael...

i_max2k2

10th July 2012, 03:50

Thank you, a pretty fair assessment, I'd hate it if he retires or if he finds a car as slow as this next year, in all honesty he would have won and done much more had this car been better this season.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2

ArrowsFA1

10th July 2012, 08:06

Well, this thread is awfully quiet lately.
One podium isn't much to talk about :D

The Black Knight

10th July 2012, 12:07

rjbetty

10th July 2012, 15:18

Aw thanks, but I do feel I've been a bit harsh on Nico.

But Michael's racecraft does seem to have improved. The only thing he's done wrong this year is crash into Senna IIRC, and possibly his part in the collision with Grosjean.

In year 1, his average +0.4sec qualifying gap to Nico and scoring half his points was representative of Schumacher's true level.

In year 2, though Michael did start ahead again only 4 times, the average gap was more like +0.2sec. But the races were much improved and he would have outscored Nico last year, but for rusty racecraft. This was totally understandable to me, and in most of the incidents, the errors were caused by being just a few percent out, meaning only a slight improvement could have cut out most of them there and then.

This year, the mistakes have indeed been mostly cut out, and now it's bad reliability (even by 80's/90's standards it hasn't been good) that's robbed him so badly. In the best case scenario his results could read

5th, 6th(?), 2nd, 7th, 8th, 1st, 3rd, 7th = 92pts
Nico's might be
8th, (no pts), 1st, 5th, 7th, 2nd, 6th, 6th, (no pts) = 77pts

And in qualifying Michael has already matched his previous years tally of outqualifying Nico 4 times - and we are less than halfway through 2012. The average gap is also much smaller now, I'd say Michael is +0.1sec slower now.

aryan

11th July 2012, 04:19

James Allen in saying on his blog, very confidently, that Shumacher has signed with Merc for another year and he'll be staying put.

gloomyDAY

11th July 2012, 06:22

No. I was wrong about Mike, and he can keep up with Nico. He's REALLY had some bad luck this season.

http://i.minus.com/ib2hbkBg4gWONM.gif

TheFamousEccles

11th July 2012, 08:44

^ Its a shame that it needs to rain for the cars to get sideways - less aero more sideways, pleeeez :)

Ok, back to the thread...

GravettFan99

11th July 2012, 08:59

I really was thinking that in those first two years, that he was destroying his image of being the best F1 racer ever, after failing to take much of anything to notice.

However, the poor man really has had some horrid luck this year, but for the past several races, he has hit form, changing my opinion. :D :idea: I wonder if he can retain his former glory, as it would be a wonderful sight to get to see!
Aside from Nico's win, Michael's experience is showing excellently and it is very apparent that he has still got it in him, in contrast to the previous two seasons. :roll:

Knock-on

12th July 2012, 00:41

rjbetty

12th July 2012, 02:48

Yeah, but it wasn't his fault his gearbox packed up in Oz, The Pit Stop was messed up in China, the Dumb Racing Solution failed in Bahrain and Canada and something else went wrong in Monaco (is it so unreasonable to suggest he could have held Webber behind him - not like he hasn't done it before, and also DC did just that in 2002 and Bernoldi did it in 2001?)

Only in China was Nico definitely quicker in race conditions.
Only in China, Bahrain, Spain and Valencia was Nico definitely quicker in Quali.

i_max2k2

12th July 2012, 06:07

In Silverstone qualifying, he could have easily been on pole, alonso and webber both did several laps on inters before setting their fastest time, Michaels P3 was on his first flying lap, he definitely got it.

F1boat

12th July 2012, 08:40

Dream on people. He's had a couple of OK races in a car that is capable of winning. The podium he got was a fluke but well done to him. However, his team mate is mediocre and he still struggles.

Points make prizes or have we forgotten that.

So when Merc are slow, the drivers are mediocre, but when it is McLaren Lewis is god and Whitmarsh runs a Satanic Conspiracy against him. Yeah, right.

ArrowsFA1

12th July 2012, 09:53

It's funny. Michael's supporters use his titles & race win stats to convince anyone prepared to listen that he's the greatest F1 driver there has ever been, and yet, for some reason, they are prepared to ignore his post comeback stats.

More than two years in he has accumulated just one podium finish. He has been out scored by his teammate each season. This year he has just 23 points, whereas Rosberg has 75. In teammate comparison terms it could be argued that he's performing at at Massa or Senna level.

Yes, luck and circumstance have played their part in Michael's lack of results, but they always do for every driver. That has to be taken into account, but we're not just talking about one season here.

Alguersuari & Buemi were given three years to prove themselves at Toro Rosso. Why should Micheal be given a fourth year? How are things going to change & improve?

Ranger

12th July 2012, 10:31

It's funny. Michael's supporters use his titles & race win stats to convince anyone prepared to listen that he's the greatest F1 driver there has ever been, and yet, for some reason, they are prepared to ignore his post comeback stats.

More than two years in he has accumulated just one podium finish. He has been out scored by his teammate each season. This year he has just 23 points, whereas Rosberg has 75. In teammate comparison terms it could be argued that he's performing at at Massa or Senna level.

It would be a pretty weak argument.

Yes, luck and circumstance have played their part in Michael's lack of results, but they always do for every driver. That has to be taken into account, but we're not just talking about one season here.

Contracts are signed on current form. Or don't you think Webber should have re-signed either, seeing as last season counts?

Alguersuari & Buemi were given three years to prove themselves at Toro Rosso. Why should Micheal be given a fourth year? How are things going to change & improve?

Red Bull's driver farming team doesn't form a valid comparison.

Dave B

12th July 2012, 13:12

Any criticism of Schuey whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

Any criticism of Hamilton whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

Any criticism of Vettel whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

Any criticism of Alonso whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

Any criticism of Maldonado whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

Any criticism of Petrov whether constructive or not is usually greeted with a stern defence with circumstances that cannot be applied to any other driver in my experience.

You see what I did there? :p

jens

12th July 2012, 13:57

Okay. I have been writing posts about replacing Schumacher before. And he is performing really well now, which creates a dilemma. Considering his age, I would think the only reason to keep him would be if he was beating Rosberg. And this is exactly, what he is doing right now. Let's see if he can keep it up. But if he was being beaten (even if he ran close), I would like to replace him with a current Force India junior or someone else for 2013.

Malbec

12th July 2012, 14:27

Considering his age, I would think the only reason to keep him would be if he was beating Rosberg.

What about the other reason? His face sells Mercs in markets where his face is recognised as a sporting superstar. Thats something Rosberg can't do and nor can Di Resta (or whoever else is on the replacement list).

We can't ignore that marketing value is a strong component of what keeps Michael's seat his (though I agree with you, this season he is more than justifying his place).

ArrowsFA1

12th July 2012, 15:32

It would be a pretty weak argument.
Perhaps, but the gap in points between Alonso/Massa and Maldonado/Senna is comparable with Rosberg/Schumacher IMHO.

Contracts are signed on current form. Or don't you think Webber should have re-signed either, seeing as last season counts?
Webber had a very strong 2010 season. He struggled last year but has come back very strongly this season. His situation is different to Schumacher IMHO.

Red Bull's driver farming team doesn't form a valid comparison.
Why? Their two drivers were given three years to perform. If you view Schumacher as you would any other driver, and if contracts are signed on current form, as opposed to being based on past achievements, then Schumacher has not done enough to retain his seat IMHO.

jens

12th July 2012, 15:36

What about the other reason? His face sells Mercs in markets where his face is recognised as a sporting superstar. Thats something Rosberg can't do and nor can Di Resta (or whoever else is on the replacement list).

We can't ignore that marketing value is a strong component of what keeps Michael's seat his (though I agree with you, this season he is more than justifying his place).

Oh yes, marketing is an important reason indeed. I feel that marketing was one of the main reasons, why Michael was hired in the first place, because his sporting form must have been a big questionmark anyway. And especially as Mercedes is a midfield team (sort of), they need any attention they can get. If they could genuinely fight for the titles, they would need less marketing based on names and can afford more marketing based on raw results and popularity that derives from it.

I have to admit though that in my previous post I was largely arguing from driver's (future) performance point of view. :)

BDunnell

12th July 2012, 16:31

Perhaps, but the gap in points between Alonso/Massa and Maldonado/Senna is comparable with Rosberg/Schumacher IMHO.

But Massa, at least, has generally performed badly this year. Schumacher's points deficit would be much less were it not for the numerous mechanical problems he's suffered. His own performances have been far superior to most of Massa's.

rjbetty

12th July 2012, 17:44

Schumacher has already shown he has much higher potential than Buemi and Alguersauri. I was thinking of his first career but now I think of it, his second career too, for I don't think Buemi or Alguersuari have ever put in a race performance that would put them 30sec up the road from Nico, as Schumacher is often doing.

Also for those of you (I mean you Johnny Herbert :) ) who suggest Rosberg is and always was better than Schumacher, I'll wait to see Nico make a comeback at 41 years of age after 3 years in retirement and see how he gets on.

Tazio

12th July 2012, 17:56

Based on talent I can think of about 2 or 3 other drivers that should give it up before Mike, after they are vetted than we can get on to truly talented pilots like Schumacher. JMHO

ArrowsFA1

12th July 2012, 18:03

Based on talent I can think of about 2 or 3 other drivers that should give it up before Mike...
And they would be...?

Tazio

12th July 2012, 18:12

Narain Karthikeyan, Pedro de la Rosa :dozey:
Not that I think these two should quit, only judging on talent they don't match Mike. My point is why are we even having this coversation? HRT wants PdR and NK. Mercedes seem to want Mike and that is reason enough!

Tazio

12th July 2012, 18:48

I didn't say that PdR is doing a bad job, only that I think Mike has more talent. As I implied in my previous post teams have reasons for employing the drivers they do. HRT has a Spaniard, and an Indian for what I think is sponsorship, and national interest reasons. Would they have better drivers if the car was more competitive, probably (at least NK)? Mercedes has the best of worlds, a positive marketing as well as racing commodity. Can you blame Brawn for:

As far as Brawn is concerned, the team are prepared to give the German as long as he needs to make up his mind, although there is a feeling Schumacher is having fun and so should continue.
Mercedes hint at another season for Schumacher - RTÉ Sport (http://www.rte.ie/sport/motorsport/f1/2012/0712/328963-mercedes-hint-at-another-season-for-schumacher/)

ArrowsFA1

12th July 2012, 18:49

My point is why are we even having this coversation? HRT wants PdR and NK. Mercedes seem to want Mike and that is reason enough!
Very true. Entirely up to them. However, this thread posed a question.

A driver is very fortunate to get the opportunity to pick a time to retire. More often than not the decision is made for them and it's not a time of their choosing. Most would continue as long as they can. Michael was fortunate to get a second chance to race in F1 and he clearly loves doing it. He's seemingly a more relaxed character these days, and his enjoyment is clear. That's great. But I am reminded of the career of Graham Hill. Hill was a great talent, but it's generally accepted that he raced on too long. Not qualifying at Monaco, where he had been the master, was sad to see and ultimately it prompted his retirement.

Michael hasn't reached that position yet, but I hope he makes the decision to retire before he does.

Tazio

12th July 2012, 19:29

Very true. Entirely up to them. However, this thread posed a question.

A driver is very fortunate to get the opportunity to pick a time to retire. More often than not the decision is made for them and it's not a time of their choosing. Most would continue as long as they can. Michael was fortunate to get a second chance to race in F1 and he clearly loves doing it. He's seemingly a more relaxed character these days, and his enjoyment is clear. That's great. But I am reminded of the career of Graham Hill. Hill was a great talent, but it's generally accepted that he raced on too long. Not qualifying at Monaco, where he had been the master, was sad to see and ultimately it prompted his retirement.

Michael hasn't reached that position yet, but I hope he makes the decision to retire before he does. I understand your posture in this matter, and respect it, however I am indifferent to Mike and believe I have a very neutral perception of him. I get the impression that he has a pretty good handle on whether he has it or not. Plus TBH I'm not really worried about his reputation. I think he knows that he may have compromised his legacy a little, but that is up to him IMO. It is obvious to me that he cares more about racing in F1 at 43 than how his comeback will affect his overall reputation. I'm not interested in him protecting his image; however I understand that many enthusiasts are.
So after all that my short answer is no I don't think Schumacher finally should retire :)

BDunnell

12th July 2012, 19:42

I understand your posture in this matter, and respect it, however I am indifferent to Mike and believe I have a very neutral perception of him. I get the impression that he has a pretty good handle on whether he has it or not. Plus TBH I'm not really worried about his reputation. I think he knows that he may have compromised his legacy a little, but that is up to him IMO. It is obvious to me that he cares more about racing in F1 at 43 than how his comeback will affect his overall reputation. I'm not interested in him protecting his image; however I understand that many enthusiasts are.

And that, basically, was once what Graham Hill said about carrying on: that the level of his performances seemed to upset others more than it did him.

ArrowsFA1

14th July 2012, 17:15

Schumi got his second podium of the year earlier today:
www.showmanager.eu (http://www.showmanager.info/Result.aspx?eventID=2206&turnierID=166&klassenID=0&status=3)

;)

Tazio

14th July 2012, 18:36

Just curious (I see Patrese also made the podium) was their charity funds raised by them?

ArrowsFA1

14th July 2012, 18:46

Possibly, I don't know. The event took place at Corinna Schumacher's facility in Switzerland - Welcome at CS RANCH | Reining Horses (http://www.cs-ranch.eu/)

Tazio

14th July 2012, 19:13

Thanks for the Link!!

http://www.cs-ranch.eu/cms/upload/docs/cs-classic-2011/celebrities.jpg

ArrowsFA1

19th July 2012, 09:29

Schumis Pferd will nicht... - Bild & Foto von Pino Buso aus Sportler - Fotografie (28495346) | fotocommunity (http://www.fotocommunity.de/pc/pc/cat/14562/display/28495346)

:p

Firstgear

19th July 2012, 15:10

Not quite the Prancing Horse he was used to.

rjbetty

20th July 2012, 16:56

2012 Mercedes Starting Positions

Schumacher 4 3 2 17 8 6 9 12 3 = 7.1 average (7th best)
Rosberg 7 7 1 5 6 2 5 6 11 = 5.6 average (3rd best)

Qualifying Time Gaps (taking best qualifying time, meaning Q2 time may have been quicker than Q3 time, so Q2 time taken)

Aus Mal Chi Bah Spa Mon Val Can Bri
Schumacher +0.414 +0.172 +0.570 +2.443 +1.197 +0.000 +0.696 +0.684 +0.292 = +0.422 off Hamilton over first 9 races
Rosberg +0.547 +0.445 +0.000 +0.399 +1.175 +0.147 +0.627 +0.418 +1.445 = +0.282 off Hamilton over first 9 races

Hamilton has the best average qualifying time so far this season. Notice Schumacher's time in Bahrain compared to Rosberg. Truthfully Michael was probably +0.3 slower than his team-mate, but he was knocked out of Q1, after which the track got much quicker. Also Rosberg is unrepresentatively far off at Silverstone cos of the weather. But I think Michael lost out more in Bahrain than Rosberg did at Silverstone, so in reality the +0.140 advantage has is probably smaller, nearer to +0.1sec. Not too bad considering how much of a qualifier Rosberg is considered to be (not far at all off Hamilton and Vettel).

steveaki13

21st July 2012, 21:41

Not quite the Prancing Horse he was used to.

More like a wonkey Donkey

markabilly

22nd July 2012, 18:35

not retire, maybe....but go to a team like the Mac, or red bull, or somewhere.

Brawn was great with Jean Todt and MS in control at ferrari. But now, with Brawn (and Haug) in conttrol, wellllll......

Can not beleive that there is a Lewis rumor that he is headed for Brawn/mercedes. Is he crazy???

steveaki13

22nd July 2012, 19:52

I think Michael drove well today.

He was racey at the start and hounded Vettel all the way on lap 1.

Unfortunately the Mercedes is just not fast enough, combined with 3 stops. Schumi and Rosberg were about where they can be.

F1boat

23rd July 2012, 09:56

Yes, Mercedes are back where they were in 2010 and 2011. :(

odykas

23rd July 2012, 10:02

Thou shall not retire!

Let the fun go on :D

The Black Knight

23rd July 2012, 13:07

Considering he is generally outperforming his younger teammate now 5-5 in qualifying and in race he seems to have the pace on him more often than not, I'd say there is no way that Schuey should retire. He is showing his quality this year again. Another good performance from the older timer yesterday.

Mercedes deserve a kick in the rear though. It's disgraceful how much they have fallen back. I wouldn't be happy if I was on the Mercedes board. Ferrari were behind them at the start of the year and have passed them out, so their whole we made a huge step this year compared to last year thing doesn't really count when you see what Ferrari have done in such a short period of time. Not good enough from an outfit like Merc.

F1boat

23rd July 2012, 13:30

Black Knight, you are of course right, but maybe Mercedes simply can't do better. Yes, they won the championship in 2009 as Brawn GP, but only because of the huge advantage in the beginning of the season, which was built with hundreds of millions of cash from Honda, right? As BAR and Honda, and now as Mercedes, they are good solid team, but not a championship winning team like Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren or the team from Enstone.

jens

23rd July 2012, 16:47

Roamy

23rd July 2012, 17:11

He is fine - give him a red bull

Malbec

23rd July 2012, 18:12

Though I am struggling to understand, what is the missing link in the current Brackley team, which prevents them from reaching the top level.

There are several missing links though some of them might be rectified by now.

Firstly the best mid-level engineers have been poached by RBR, McLaren and other big budget teams. A lot of that happened during the Brawn period when the future of the team was in doubt. Rebuilding that experienced cadre takes time though they have certainly been trying.

Secondly Mercedes has done this on the cheap, buying the team for a lot less than the infrastructure would suggest the team was worth and also underspending (compared to the RRA limit) for several seasons. Also Mercedes haven't plugged the team into their own R and D network unlike Honda (which finally sorted this aspect out just in time to build the Brawn 001...).

Thirdly the top level as you call it has just got hotter over the past few seasons. During the Honda period the top level meant Ferrari and McLaren. Now top level includes a third team, RBR.

I don't think Mercedes have done that bad a job considering.

steveaki13

23rd July 2012, 22:55

Mercedes is proving, what Toyota, Honda and BMW Sauber were proving in the past. That F1 is extremely difficult. Despite Mercedes having some really famous names onboard (Brawn, Costa, Willis, Bell), even this is not enough as can be seen. At least not yet. Even if you have got the money and brain power, it is still not easy to get it right.

Though I am struggling to understand, what is the missing link in the current Brackley team, which prevents them from reaching the top level. Perhaps they are lacking some real tyre experts in the team, because they have been struggling with tyres for some time (remember 2011 and degradation, 2009 and tyre heating). And as good as the Costas and Bells are, perhaps they are not really specialists in that particular area.

It is a stange thing isn't it.

Mercedes and the others you mention Jens. All have failed in currant guises to find true success and yet. Mclaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are now all capable of producing winning cars year in year out.

However occasionally teams can find success from no where. i.e Brawn, Benetton (sort of).

So what is that ingredient that alot of teams can't find.

Garry Walker

24th July 2012, 20:44

Well, Rosberg is at the moment on his knees and Schumacher is destroying him.

zako85

24th July 2012, 21:57

It's time for Mercedes to make a bold move. Besides making a good car, they need to hire a top flight pilot. Someone with experience and still in his prime, perhaps Hamilton or Vettel. Realistically though, this could be difficult as Mercedes team future still remains in doubt. Wasn't the M-B board of directors going to make a decision some time soon about whether to continue in F1? It seems like some board members are not impressed with the F1 effort.

ArrowsFA1

25th July 2012, 06:48

Well, Rosberg is at the moment on his knees and Schumacher is destroying him.
Mr Walker. MR WALKER! We've told you before. You are not to use that computer unsupervised. Now come here. It's time for your medication.

:p

F1boat

25th July 2012, 08:17

Not destroying, but proving to be a worthy rival at least.

SGWilko

25th July 2012, 11:12

Mercedes is proving, what Toyota, Honda and BMW Sauber were proving in the past. That F1 is extremely difficult. Despite Mercedes having some really famous names onboard (Brawn, Costa, Willis, Bell), even this is not enough as can be seen. At least not yet. Even if you have got the money and brain power, it is still not easy to get it right.

Though I am struggling to understand, what is the missing link in the current Brackley team, which prevents them from reaching the top level. Perhaps they are lacking some real tyre experts in the team, because they have been struggling with tyres for some time (remember 2011 and degradation, 2009 and tyre heating). And as good as the Costas and Bells are, perhaps they are not really specialists in that particular area.

Everyone seems to be conveniently overlooking the fact that, as Brawn, the team shed a shedload of staff for financial reasons and because of the RRA. I suspect this is affecting them a lot more than we think. After all, Merc are not like Red Bull, who are happy to (and can afford) to spend their way out of a hole (being able to afford to pay for clever accountants to fudge the numbers).

rjbetty

1st August 2012, 01:44

The Black Knight

1st August 2012, 09:15

Sooo no-one's calling for Michael's retirement now he had one bad race? :)

This time Nico did a better job fair and square. But I was expecting this to be a rough one for Michael given how much of a struggle Michael's had here over the last 2 years.

A real surprise to me considering how good he used to be here. That drive he had in Hungary 1998 was just unbelievable. One of the greatest drives in the history of the sport.

N. Jones

1st August 2012, 13:01

I do wish he would move on. He's more personable and prone to mistakes he never made in his prime but it's time to move on. His fans got to see him for a few more years, so move on with dignity.

Knock-on

2nd August 2012, 13:38

Nico has been on holiday for the last few races hasn't he? That Mercedes can do a lot better than these two are showing in my opinion.

As for poor old Garry, I think he's ioan and Tamburellos love child :p Take the glasses off old fruit. :crazy:

rjbetty

8th August 2012, 16:34

Incidentally, I was shocked to see that "many" are wondering/urging Jenson Button to retire!!!

As though at 32, he is old and past it!!!

JB on quitting, ambitions, mistakes | Planet F1 | Formula One News (http://planetf1.com/driver/3213/7968072/JB-on-quitting-ambitions-mistakes)

beetlejuice21

11th August 2012, 00:33

I only know and still admire one Schumacher...the one from Benetton and Ferrari era ;) And the new Schumacher has nothing in common with that one...sadly.

Exactly...

Garry Walker

12th August 2012, 12:54

That Mercedes can do a lot better than these two are showing in my opinion.Based on what?
Just as well can I say the McLaren is being wasted by Button and Hamilton being idiots.

As for poor old Garry, I think he's ioan and Tamburellos love child :p
I think that is probably one of the most disgusting things I have read in a long long time :p

Knock-on

13th August 2012, 14:32

Based on what?
Just as well can I say the McLaren is being wasted by Button and Hamilton being idiots.

Based on my opinion. You're allowed one as well you know :p

I think that is probably one of the most disgusting things I have read in a long long time :p

Thanks :D

Garry Walker

13th August 2012, 18:12

Based on my opinion. You're allowed one as well you know :p

YEs, but what do you base your opinion on? Cold hard facts or a hard night of partying?

Knock-on

13th August 2012, 18:27

Fair enough. in my opinion, the car is capable of much better results than it has produced. Nico is highly rated by some people but I don't rate him that highly. He seems to me like a Rubens or a DC. Good peddler but not a Alonso or a Hamilton.

As for Schumacher, I think he should have retired before he did the first time around and to be embarrassed by someone like Nico year after year is laughable.

The Black Knight

13th August 2012, 20:21

I have to say I agree and think Schumacher coming back was the biggest mistake of his career. Alot of the things that his fans once held in high regard like adaptation to new regs and his technical feedback being a driving factor in development has sort of hit a sour note since the beginning of 2010. Age isn't on his side and with drivers like Raikkonen coming back after 2 years away and fighting amongst the front runners in a matter of races, I think Michael would be wise to hang up his helmet while he is still rated with such high regard. The Merc has been up and down in performance but I do feel it could have accomplished alot more than it has. Thats just my opinion based on my experience watching him in every season he has competed in since 1991. :)

To be honest, I think he has earned the right to stay in F1 for as long as he wants. After giving so much to the sport throughout the years he should decide when he quits and I think he will and really doesn't care what others think. He's one of the greats. His performances this year alone, Hungary aside, show he still has what it takes to be amongst the current crop of drivers.

One can never take away those 7 championships no matter what he does past his peak.

Knock-on

13th August 2012, 21:53

The Black Knight

14th August 2012, 14:23

He will stay in F1 as long as he wants and it makes economic sense to Mercedes.

Does he have a 'right' to a drive? Not in my book and if I was Mercedes I wouldn't have entertained him after he screwed them over at the beginnng of hs career. However, I'm glad he came back if only to disprove the BS around him once he was in a team on an equal footing.

As Henners said, hs fans made ludicrous claims such as him being able to win in a Minardi etc but Schumy has managed to dispel a lot of these idiotic rambleings. Yet aven though he has been aniliated by a average team mate since his return, his fans still come up with excuses.

So no, I don't think they are getting the maximum out of that car.

He drove a Minardi in the Nurburgring in the early 2000's and was around 2 tenths of a second off the best time set there in testing by their other drivers. He did something like 242 laps in one day, or something crazy like that. That in itself showed he couldn't have won in a Minardi and anyone who really believes that needs their heads checked.

It's a pity you can't appreciate him for the great driver he was in his prime though. Personal dislikes aside in all, you don't become 7 times WDC and get that kind of support from a team like Ferrari if you are not a great driver.

Garry Walker

14th August 2012, 19:26

but his win at all costs attitude is something I didn't like. A quality I personally admire a lot.

He drove a Minardi in the Nurburgring in the early 2000's and was around 2 tenths of a second off the best time set there in testing by their other drivers. He did something like 242 laps in one day, or something crazy like that.
Do you have a link for that? You probably don't.

Does he have a 'right' to a drive? Not in my book and if I was Mercedes I wouldn't have entertained him after he screwed them over at the beginnng of hs career. LOL. Based on this year the only guys who deserve a place above him in F1 would probably be Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi, Webber and possibly bieber then? Because there is nothing about the other drivers in the field that makes them better than MS.

Fair enough. in my opinion, the car is capable of much better results than it has produced. Nico is highly rated by some people but I don't rate him that highly. He seems to me like a Rubens or a DC. Good peddler but not a Alonso or a Hamilton.

As for Schumacher, I think he should have retired before he did the first time around and to be embarrassed by someone like Nico year after year is laughable.
He is hardly getting embarrassed by Nico this year. The only thing embarrassing about him this year is the fact that his car keeps falling him most of the time.

Garry Walker

14th August 2012, 20:02

That doesn't actually surprise me.
Do you think there is something wrong with having "winning is everything" mentality? Now, I don't support cheating, but if you give absolutely everything from yourself and don't accept losing (and one never should), you are bound to get it wrong once or twice.

He has been unlucky with certain car failures, but he has also made a few howlers along the way. Keeping Mercedes busy making front wings and turning his car off on the grid prior to a race after pulling into the wrong grid slot tends to give us a few laughs, but I'd rather see him fighting where many believe he deserves to be. Well, he had bad races at Spain (crashed into Senna idiotically) and Hungary obviously. But other than that he has been on pace and in races, mostly faster than Nico.

Garry Walker

14th August 2012, 21:45

I have no problem with the 'winning is everything' mentality at all. I just respect the drivers like Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Button etc etc who line up on todays grid and don't have to resort to smashing each other off or forcing others into the pit wall. That style of driving is outdated and the talent pool in F1 has provided us with drivers who are capable of racing cleanly, most of the time. Bieber and Rosberg have done some pretty harsh move on others that are no less "bad" compared to what MS has done.
Why is agressive style outdated? Is it better these days with DRS passes when the guy getting overtaken does absolutely NOTHING to protect his position? Yeah, superclean and so interesting to watch.

He's improved this year and has hit some bad luck, but I feel Nico needs to buck his ideas up too and as both drivers are underperforming and inconsistent with mistakes and pace IMO.But name drivers who this year have actually been consistent? Alonso? Hamilton? Kimi? Who else? No one. MS is not anymore on the level of those three, but in comparison to others he is lacking nothing. Except a reliable and a fast car maybe.

The Black Knight

15th August 2012, 10:20

Do you have a link for that? You probably don't.

I might be able to find more info on it if you really want to know more about it. He drove a Minardi twice to my recollection. Once at Fiorano in a two seater with his family and friends in the other seat and the second time in Nurburgring single seater.

Garry Walker

15th August 2012, 17:57

I might be able to find more info on it if you really want to know more about it. He drove a Minardi twice to my recollection. Once at Fiorano in a two seater with his family and friends in the other seat and the second time in Nurburgring single seater.The two-seater is obviously meaningless. I don't remember him ever driving a single-seater Minardi. I remember he tried the Sauber in 1997. So, yes, if you have info on it, post it.

I remember hearing about this years ago. Surprised some of his fans hadn't. As I said, the two-seater is meaningless and not relevant at all. I want to hear about the proper F1 car (if you can ever call Minardi that).

The Black Knight

16th August 2012, 11:49

The two-seater is obviously meaningless. I don't remember him ever driving a single-seater Minardi. I remember he tried the Sauber in 1997. So, yes, if you have info on it, post it.

I'll have a look. I remember which website I read on but it's not open to public and I haven't used it in about 8 years. If I find it, I'll post it up.

Gokartingvideos.com

20th August 2012, 18:23

Now, i was Schumacher's biggest fan back in the day (now a Hamilton fan, bring on the abuse :-D). In my opinion he was the best driver at that time, i loved his race craft, and don't get me started on his wet driving skills, he would have put anyone to shame, maybe not senna though senna was awesome! Anyways, he basically dominated everyone (not all the time i must admit, but most of the time he did) and is known as one of F1's greatest drivers period. Now, you'd have thought that a 7 time world champion going into the Mercedes works team would have done better than what he has right? Yes! Im virtually every race his team mate, Rosberg, has out qualified and out raced him. Which is such a shame as i was hoping for Michael to be up the front, maybe even fighting for wins. I know the mercedes isn't as good as the Ferrari, Mclaren & Red Bull, but still. I hate to say it but i think maybe it is time for him to retire? Unless he can pull something out of the bag for the second half of the season, or at least beating his team mate. We know he is capable of winning championships and races but maybe age has taken its toll a bit, or maybe the competition is stronger. Who knows, but it is a shame!

kfzmeister

21st August 2012, 03:45

i think maybe it is time for him to retire?
...i don't get all this pressure constantly. Why this talk about him retiring. Let the man be. What? If he isn't racing for wins, he has no right to be there? Good grief.....

Knock-on

21st August 2012, 06:24

I don't get it? Haven't you just argued both sides in the same paragraph unless I'm going crazy? I think I've spent too long driving!!!

TheFamousEccles

26th August 2012, 05:15

Yes, he should. QED.

Zico

28th September 2012, 22:05

Does Mike want to retire at the end of the season or try a final season with Sauber... or even return to Ferrari? Alonso/Schumacher would be a very strong pairing and If Vettel has a pre-contract agreement with Ferrari for 2014 maybe its not as ridiculous as it first sounds.

I'd definately give him a 2013 'bow out' seat if I was boss of either of those teams... would you?

steveaki13

28th September 2012, 22:28

I would too. If I were a midfield team and was looking at an Alguersuari or new youngster. It would be tempting to have a one season glory run with Schumi.

However I think Schumacher will retire. I cant see him feeling like heading to Sauber or Force India. He came to Mercedes because of his links with Mercedes and the German super team idea and Mercedes would always have a chance of winning. I dont see him carrying on.

donKey jote

29th September 2012, 10:26

Oh dear, he got the boot again.
If Ioan were still around, I'd change my sig to "big fat boo hoo :rotflmao: :laugh: " :dozey:

The Black Knight

29th September 2012, 10:41

If Massa gets dropped from Ferrari The door would be open for Schumi to do one final year before retiring for good. Taking Alonso's recent comments into account that any Massa replacement would have to have equal or better race winning credentials the. There is no one left on the current grid that meets that standard other than Schumi. It's unlikely but it would be great if he had one last hurrah there.

F1boat

29th September 2012, 11:14

It will be wisest to retire. F1 remains a dangerous sport, especially if you are not as sharp as before.

i_max2k2

30th September 2012, 02:48

I'd like to see him in a Ferrari, just to see how his 43/44yr old self compares to everyone else in a genuinely fast car, in his prime he was untouchable and so either way, he never lost respect from me, or perhaps most of his fans, and at least I'd remember his good races :)

darkos

30th September 2012, 08:15

Well he make mistake going back and listen to others opinion. He should never get back to F1 racing. But instead he destroyed hes legend :(

rjbetty

1st October 2012, 18:45

Well if he wants to drive next year I think he should. Despite the widespread (and kinda correct) opinion that this comeback has been a disaster, I think he is still one of the top 10 drivers in this very competitive F1 field.

In all but the official championship points table, Michael has for the most part had the measure of Nico this season. Michael may have struggled a little in China, Hungary and Singapore, but I don't see anything like what Rosberg managed at Sepang, Silverstone or Spa (i.e. performances that rival Massa's, in the midfield and outta the points while Michael's fighting around the sharp end)

I'm sure that in absolute terms, Michael can easily beat drivers like Kobayashi. So if he wants to drive, there should be a good place available for him.

rjbetty

1st October 2012, 21:59

Found these quotes on youtube: The first one was a reply to me!

Did you not see F1 the last 3 years? Shumi's pure luck has run out.. And people get punnished nowadays when they cheat.. So the truth about Scumi has now come to the surface.. He get beat by his teammate almost every race cause there are no teamorders and bot driver in the team get the same equipment.. 3 years and what did he perform? 1 podium and al the record for punishments and idiotic crashes.. In adition he is just a very arogant and nasty person..

and

Scumacher 7 times world champions with cheated car, and he is a guy without c**k (my edit). Montoya 0 time but close to beat him with badder car but montoya had the bowles to say what the ****e driver was schumacher !!

I just don't know what to say to someone like this (a huge JPM fan, and of course JPM was superior to Michael and Kimi) :D

wedge

2nd October 2012, 14:23

He should retire and speaking as a Shumi fan he should have stayed retired.

His legacy has been tainted by ill-formed opinions - tyres especially. Goodyear were sole tyre supplier in the early-mid '90s and Schumi was double WDC.

If Goodyear favoured Ferrari it was down to the success Shumi had at Benetton. Besides Ferrari still suffered from high wear/degradation in '97; Goodyear's tyres became inferior to Bridgestones yet Ferrari could give McLaren a run for its money for WDC; not to mention crazy favourtism conspiracy theories in the single tyre manufacturer days - utterly ridiculous and nothing for the manufacturer to be gained from unless there was a tyre war.

rabf1

2nd October 2012, 17:19

AndyL

2nd October 2012, 17:44

If his only option is Sauber, he should definitely retire. But if he could drive one more year for Ferrari I'm sure he would. What I don't unerstand is: if Vettel is signed to move to Ferrari in 2014 then they need someone for just one year (2013) so why not MS? That would be a better option than Massa.

Would it though? At least Massa doesn't keep running into the back of other cars. (I'm sure the wags will be able to come up with a reason for that!)

I don't see the wisdom in swapping Massa for another driver who is maybe a bit faster but maybe a bit less reliable, especially if it's only for a year, and risks upsetting the equilibrium of the team.

tfp

2nd October 2012, 23:46

Would it though? At least Massa doesn't keep running into the back of other cars. (I'm sure the wags will be able to come up with a reason for that!)

I don't see the wisdom in swapping Massa for another driver who is maybe a bit faster but maybe a bit less reliable, especially if it's only for a year, and risks upsetting the equilibrium of the team.

Theres no point in being reliable and making it to the finish if you dont finish in the top 10! No points=no point!
Id pick the shoe in a heart beat over Massa. But will the shoe want to go to Ferrari only to assist Fred? I wouldnt think so.

PS sorry if I sounded like a sarcy git ;) And for the record Im no fan of schumachers!

zako85

3rd October 2012, 01:38

I would prefer to see Massa at Sauber. Massa has been completely morally destroyed at Ferrari. The entire team develops car for Alonso. Massa knows that if he is running in front of Alonso, he has to give up his position. This has to have an impact on his driving. The right thing for him was to change teams after 2010's "Fernando is faster than you" incident in Germany . He didn't. It's still not too late IMO. He is a young and talented driver. He could still come back to the top, but not at Ferrari.

Knock-on

3rd October 2012, 08:15

Schumy won't go to Ferrari as he would do as we'll as Massa. He's slower year on year and Ferrari don't need him. If Massa can concentrate for the rest of the year and show a bit of spirit, then he will hold on to the ride until Seb moves in.

Zico

3rd October 2012, 09:45

Fair points made by all...

Yes as far as we are concerned his comeback has been a mistake and his reputation as a driver has undoubtedly been tarnished. One thing that Im trying to understand is how he managed to acheive the fastest qualy time at Monaco despite his alleged age related slower reactions/loss of pace. Isn't Monaco the one track that truely shows the true pace of a driver... or was he just giving it all or nothing, big risks/big cahonies trying to rescue his reputation while the rest were being more cautious and thinking of the bigger picture?

Perhaps selfishly, I would like to see him at Ferrari even if just to see how his 43/44yr old self compares to Alonso now. I believe he would acheive far better results than Fellipe. I guess the big question is if his reputation would take a further battering and if he would be prepared to risk that.

Malbec

3rd October 2012, 11:15

Yes as far as we are concerned his comeback has been a mistake and his reputation as a driver has undoubtedly been tarnished.

Thats only speaking from a fan's point of view.

Michael Schumacher didn't come back to prove anything, he did so because he missed racing and he wanted to enjoy himself. I think only he's in a position to say whether he had fun the last three years or not but I suspect he did.

When talking about signing Lewis Mercedes said the position only came free because MS delayed giving them a response as to whether he wanted to carry on driving with them next year. I'm going to take a wild guess and say thats not because he was busy pondering over offers from RBR, Ferrari and McLaren but because he doesn't know whether its worth his time anymore.

Is a guy who can't commit to another year at Mercedes going to be moving heaven and earth to get another less competitive drive next year? I don't think so.

He might end up at Ferrari or stay at Mercedes in a management/advisor/ambassador role though

AndyL

3rd October 2012, 11:46

Theres no point in being reliable and making it to the finish if you dont finish in the top 10! No points=no point!

There's also no point crashing all the time - no finish = no points! Ultimately, points are the goal, and in that sense the championship standings don't lie: Massa 51, Schumacher 43.

Id pick the shoe in a heart beat over Massa. But will the shoe want to go to Ferrari only to assist Fred? I wouldnt think so.

This is the sort of thing I meant by the potential to upset the equilibrium of the team. If Schumacher went to Ferrari, it wouldn't be to do play the same role Massa is playing. The potential to score a few more points is not worth the risk.

I think Zako made a good point - even if it's not in Ferrari's interest to replace Massa right now, it's in Massa's interest to leave.

Firstgear

3rd October 2012, 14:14

Ferrari had the chance to put MS back behind the wheel when Massa had his injury a few years ago. They didn't want him then - and they would want him even less now.

rabf1

3rd October 2012, 15:12

Evidently its MS's own fault that he is out at Merc because he wasn't willing to commit for next year soon enough (if you believe the press stories). If that is really the case, it sounds to me like he is done after this year. But as with some others, I would like to see him at Ferrari next year just to see if at his age he is still competitive with Alonso.

The Black Knight

3rd October 2012, 18:39

Ferrari had the chance to put MS back behind the wheel when Massa had his injury a few years ago. They didn't want him then - and they would want him even less now.

Unfortunately this sort of misinformation is the cause of many untrue rumours about a driver. Luca asked Schuey to come back. He chose not to because of his neck and probably he realised that a lack of testing would hurt him. Luca was very disappointed that he signed for Mercedes. This is not the sign of some that was unwilling to have him back. Remember he asked Schumi not the other way around.