Hamilton loses Pole

[bontebempo]

BBC Sport - Lewis Hamilton loses Spanish pole because of rules on fuel (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/18047760)

Stupid McLaren, even i know that rule hahaha. Positive side, its normally a dull race so be good to see Lewis crashing everyone out to get to the front,

[Stuartf12007]

Hamilton = cheat

[Wasted Talent]

Hamilton = cheat

I hardly think Hamilton was cheating, but the team made a mistake and they pay the penalty.

WT

[christophulus]

As happy as I am that a Williams is on pole, I'm pretty sure the run of wins from pole position is going to end tomorrow! (last year excepted of course)

[driveace]

How can you call Hamilton a cheat? He was the fastest man out there,but is being run by dummies.After the slowest pit stops of any team,and being in motor racing since Nelson lost his eye ,they cannot put enough fuel in his car.Vodafone tell this team to buck up,and Whitmarsh,are you up to the job ?

[gloomyDAY]

Obligatory posts:

1) Lewis is a cheater.
2) Lewis lost pole because he's black.

Now I'm banned.

[CNR]

He was the fastest man out there,but is being run by dummies.After the slowest pit stops of any team,and being in motor racing since Nelson lost his eye ,they cannot put enough fuel in his car.Vodafone tell this team to buck up,and Whitmarsh,are you up to the job ?

10kg extra fuel in F1 costs an estimated fourth- tenths of a
second per lap

[Whyzars]

Hamilton has "DSQ" next to his qualifying result on the F1 site.

Is he a non starter for the race or has he been given a grid penalty? No start seems a bit harsh.

Edit: Just read the race thread. He is allowed to start from the back of the grid. Still harsh in my opinion.

[fandango]

i think the penalty seems a bit harsh if it's one that was decided by the stewards. if, on the other hand, it's a penalty that is in the rules as automatic then well, that's life.

i feel sorry for Hamilton, especially because the margin to Maldonado left no doubt that the weight difference from the lack of fuel wouldn't have affected his placing.
However, I think he had his "who, me? I'm innocent" face on in the press room when he seemed to avoid explaining his stop on circuit.

[N. Jones]

Hamilton = cheat

I disagree completely with this statement. Whatever happened McLaren is paying the price for it.

Enough said.

[spudrsca]

I think I'm now fully in the conspiracy camp who thinks that Mclaren and Whitmarsh prefers Button.

In Australia, Button was better than Hamilton and had a better set-up I won't denied that but even then, they stopped Hamilton way too late in his first stop to make sure that Button would have a big gap and didn't care that Vettel was caching Hamilton at a great rate on the first stint. They only care that Button would have a big margin over Hamilton.
On all the other gp, Hamilton was better than Button but always managed to let Button be in front of Hamilton after poor pit-stops and stategy for Hamilton.

Even after that quali, Whitmarsh was quick to point out that jenson was quicker on Friday and will defend Jenson everytime.
When it's the opposite, he will praise Button and will not defend Hamilton.
I'm fed up of Whitmarsh and Button.

[gloomyDAY]

I think this is strictly a management problem. McLaren have been dropping the ball on-track since the beginning of the season. Just to name a few things off the top of my head McLaren have botched pit stops, race and tire strategies, and now qualifying. Also, if a lot of these issues didn't happen as a result of crappy teamwork McLaren would have had a lot more points/wins as a result, so I'm not talking about them languishing in the midfield.

As of right now McLaren are acting like Ferrari circa 2008. Felipe Massa had the fastest car on the grid, but Ferrari kept finding ways of shooting themselves in the foot. McLaren Group should have accepted Martin Whitmarsh's resignation after the cheating scandal in Australia a couple of years ago and signed on someone without any ties to Ron Dennis.

Hamilton is going to start getting frustrated. "Looking ahead to tomorrow, I think it's clear that it's going to be an incredibly tough race for us. Even so, as always, I'll never give up and I'll give it everything I've got." That's Hamilton-speak! We're going to see a really active Hamilton tomorrow charging up the field and taking big risks to get points, and I really can't blame the guy.

[Koz]

I think I'm now fully in the conspiracy camp who thinks that Mclaren and Whitmarsh prefers Button.

In Australia, Button was better than Hamilton and had a better set-up I won't denied that but even then, they stopped Hamilton way too late in his first stop to make sure that Button would have a big gap and didn't care that Vettel was caching Hamilton at a great rate on the first stint. They only care that Button would have a big margin over Hamilton.
On all the other gp, Hamilton was better than Button but always managed to let Button be in front of Hamilton after poor pit-stops and stategy for Hamilton.

Even after that quali, Whitmarsh was quick to point out that jenson was quicker on Friday and will defend Jenson everytime.
When it's the opposite, he will praise Button and will not defend Hamilton.
I'm fed up of Whitmarsh and Button.

Yes, exactly this.
It's not just Whitmarsh, but everyone in F1, especially the FIA and the lead instigator of this is Max Mosley. :o
And yes, it is because he is black.

[pino]

Hamilton is not a cheater and feel very sorry for him. Lewis was the faster on track but once again he's to pay for stupid McLaren mistakes :down:

[F1boat]

The rule was made because of Lewis Hamilton and the way he and McLaren explored the rules in the 2010 Canadian Grand Prix Qualifying. It was not cheating in that race, just a desperate move against the unstoppable Red Bulls. Unfortunately I think that McLaren-Mercedes simply forgot that a rule was introduced to prevent such tactics (interestingly, for the race there is no such rule) and send Lewis for pole, blissfully unaware that they are ruining his chances. I know that some people think that the team is sabotaging Hamilton on purpose, but from what I see with Button I think that they are simply incompetent and this is not a problem for this year. I dunno about you guys, but I follow the sport since the 90s and I remember numerous races in which Hakkinen, Coulthard or Raikkonen paid heavy price for the team's mistakes. McLaren are one of the strongest and probably the most consistent F1 team, but there is something horribly wrong in their outfit if a sole WDC is their only achievement in the new century. They need to change something in their team, but I don't know what exactly :(

[driveace]

Lewis will either be a charger today,and if he is then his overtaking must be clean,as the Stewards will be watching him more than anyone else,OR he will be dissapointed at the position the team have left him in and retire from the race.I sincerely hope it's the first.And I can fully understand his feelings that his colour is a problem !

[steveaki13]

Well it is unfortunate, but to call Hamilton a cheater is too much.

He does not put the fuel in the car and probably doesn't really know how much is in the car. Its yet another mistake from Mclaren.

The team broke the rules and the rules dictate you are excluded from Qualifying so that means only one thing, you have to start behind everyone else.

[andyone]

Well said.. lets hope he will be calm. he seems to be soo calm this year. i think he will get it in control and he will finish in the top ten. that im sure of. at the start he will possibly gain 5 or more places.. fingers crossed

[F1boat]

Yes, he seems very relaxed, matured. If he takes the approach, which Michael used in Bahrain, he can score some good points.

[ioan]

Heard this on the radio and felt sorry for Lewis. Clearly not his fault.

[Garry Walker]

To quote my post from another thread - Idiotic stewards with 2,5 inch genitalia and only one testicle decided to show their fascist tendencies.

[gloomyDAY]

2949

[truefan72]

I honestly think that at this point, sooner than later, Hamilton and mclaren part ways eventually and there are 3 teams that will vie for his services

now in pole position is Ferrari, even though Alonso is there I think with a long discussion and some years between the two of them, they can coexist and decide the championship fairly amongst themselves as they nearly did in 2007
Each can have his side of the garage and ensure that ferrari have a bunch of wins and a title race between their drivers

2nd would be RBR and if Webber goes to Ferrari as expected, then Hamilton can go to RBR and either join vettel at the team. Vettel may not like this and opt to join Mclaren, or Webber and Hamilton stay and Vettel moves to mclaren

3rd and a real dark horse is Lotus. With either a Kimi Lewis pairing or a Hamlton Grosjean pairing with kimi returning to mclaren.

Anyway, this is just speculation if mclaren continue to drop the ball and cost hamilton race wins. More than likely he will remain with the team if by seasons end they are in the hunt or if he wins the WCC. But these issues are beyond frustration and there is no good explanation why any engineer would underfuel his car which was domination Qualy and even a p2 would have been a great result. The only thing I can think of is deliberate sabotage. It is unfathomable thet they did not know the rules or think tha they would get away with this. and I hope hamilton had a few choice words with that clown

[zako85]

Rules are rules and must be followed, but it is disappointing to see Hamilton pay so dearly for his team's mistake.

[truefan72]

another thing

I suspected they underfueled the car and I thought that the right penalty was to strip that last time and place him with the other Q3 time he set. since the issue was simply with the last run and therefore it was appropriate to strip that time/
Disqualifying all his times from Qualy is draconian and would only be fair if there was some illegal part in the car etc. that would have given him some unfair advantage throughout qualy.

To me underfeuling your car for the 2nd run in Q3 is less of a crime than deliberately not setting a time at all IMO
form now one I will see how the stewards met out punishment to anyone who doesn't complete the cool down lap in a q3

enough on this topic for me

I hope Hamilton can storm through the field benefit from a safety car and end up no the podium

[N4D13]

While being forced to start last seems extremely harsh to me, I can understand the stewards' logic. Had Hamilton arrived to the pits, he would have been disqualified from qualifying after having failed to meet a technical requirement, and there wouldn't have been any cause for an argument. It's pretty much the same as when they disqualified the Sauber cars from a race (I don't remember which one it was) after a bodywork infringement.

Now, the only difference is that Lewis did have enough fuel to provide a sample, it's just that had he completed his lap (if he could), he wouldn't have been able to do so, which would have caused him to be disqualified. I suppose that the stewards decided that, given that he wouldn't have been able to provide a sample, the penalty should be the same.

Then again, I'd like to point out that sometimes people are much harder with McLaren and Ferrari that they are with other teams. Mercedes screwed Schumacher royally in China and Bahrain, while poor management meant that Webber was unable to get into Q3. Yet I don't see the amount of criticism towards them that I've seen towards Macca and Ferrari. ;)

[Zico]

I feel so sorry for Lewis, probably his best 'non pole' lap ever. It's definately just a staff/management problem at McLaren.. to those of you who are suggesting driver bias and that his team intentionaly sabotaged his (and their own) race for this reason, c'mon, thats just ridiculous!.. can I have some of what you are smoking? :D

A bit harsh but rules are rules and such a critical thing like fuel load should have a double and cross check system in place. As MB said earlier.. I just hope it wasn't the previous rear left wheelman. :/

[Dave B]

I agree with those saying he should have been excluded from Q3 (and start 11th) but that sending him to the back is a bit harsh, but them's the rules so at least it'll be exciting watching his race.

[SGWilko]

Watching the 'Phone Hack F1' channel, it appears it was a genuine mistake by the team. Chap in the team set the fuel thingy to pump out, not fill. When realised his mistake, filled up as quick as possible but not enough time.

Penalty is tough, but rules is rules. Lets hope Lewis has a good, fun and clean race.

[AndyL]

I suspected they underfueled the car and I thought that the right penalty was to strip that last time and place him with the other Q3 time he set. since the issue was simply with the last run and therefore it was appropriate to strip that time/
Disqualifying all his times from Qualy is draconian and would only be fair if there was some illegal part in the car etc. that would have given him some unfair advantage throughout qualy.

From what I understand, they're supposed to have the 0.5l spare for the fuel sample in the car for all runs (I guess you never know which run will be your last). So not having it at the point it was actually needed raises the possibility it was not in the car earlier either, and all times are voided.

[F1boat]

another smart race in which he got the points. I am very impressed, last year he would have crashed with Felipe.

[Dave B]

Where are the people who say Hamilton can't manage a set of tyres? He made a 2-stop strategy work and, just as importantly, didn't lose his cool in the face of yet another blunder by his team. :up:

[truefan72]

From what I understand, they're supposed to have the 0.5l spare for the fuel sample in the car for all runs (I guess you never know which run will be your last). So not having it at the point it was actually needed raises the possibility it was not in the car earlier either, and all times are voided.

if it wasn't in the car in the other runs he would not have managed the standard 3 laps in his first q3 run, or the other 3 lap runs in Q2 or his 4 lap run and then 3 lap run in Q1
if there wasn't enough fuel in those runs, his car would have stopped, so that argument IMO doesn't hold up

like i said, if it was a qualy long infringement that had something to do with say an illegal fuel mixture etc, then it is clear that the complete DQ should take place
but if it was an issue with the last Q3 run, then the appropriate measure would have been to strip that time. But as usual, the stewards just came down harder than normal on Hamilton.
Honestly if it was Vettel or Alonso, or Kimi, I suspect they would have simply stripped the last Q3 time and allowed the only "valid" run to count

[F1boat]

Where are the people who say Hamilton can't manage a set of tyres? He made a 2-stop strategy work and, just as importantly, didn't lose his cool in the face of yet another blunder by his team. :up:

He has changed. He is a lot better than last year.

[AndyL]

if it wasn't in the car in the other runs he would not have managed the standard 3 laps in his first q3 run, or the other 3 lap runs in Q2 or his 4 lap run and then 3 lap run in Q1
if there wasn't enough fuel in those runs, his car would have stopped, so that argument IMO doesn't hold up

The argument is that there's supposed to be enough fuel in the car to complete the run and still have the 0.5l for the sample. Being able to get back to the pits isn't proof that they had 0.5l left when they got back.

[truefan72]

The argument is that there's supposed to be enough fuel in the car to complete the run and still have the 0.5l for the sample. Being able to get back to the pits isn't proof that they had 0.5l left when they got back.

it was enough to do the fast lap and then a cool down lap entering the pits, in every other run
what you are implying really makes no sense

the only mistake occurred with the final run and there is no indication that they short fueled any other time in qualy
according to you, all cars on the paddock during qualy might have shortfueled throughout all 3 sessions which is just nonsense reasoning extrapolated from a mistake done in the last run of Q3.
As mclaren explained, the engineer made a mistake and was dumping fuel instead of adding it and then hastily tried to add fuel back to the car but did not add enough in time for a last run.

THEREFORE, strip the final time and let the other stand

[AndyL]

it was enough to do the fast lap and then a cool down lap entering the pits, in every other run
what you are implying really makes no sense

the only mistake occurred with the final run and there is no indication that they short fueled any other time in qualy
according to you, all cars on the paddock during qualy might have shortfueled throughout all 3 sessions which is just nonsense reasoning extrapolated from a mistake done in the last run of Q3.
As mclaren explained, the engineer made a mistake and was dumping fuel instead of adding it and then hastily tried to add fuel back to the car but did not add enough in time for a last run.

THEREFORE, strip the final time and let the other stand

It makes sense. Whether you agree with it is a different question. The bottom line as far as the stewards are concerned is that at the end of qualifying, the car was found to be in breach of a technical regulation.

It's true that any car might be in breach of all sorts of technical regulations when no-one's looking. But if it passes scrutineering checks it's assumed to be compliant in the absence of evidence to the contrary.

If it fails scrutineering checks, on the other hand, how would you look on that as a steward? The team tell you that the car was only non-compliant for the last two laps, but I doubt they can prove it - there are no homologated refuelling rigs any more. Would you give them the benefit of the doubt? Perhaps you would. But you're going over the top in saying it's "nonsense reasoning" for the stewards not to do so.


By the way just for information - McLaren were found to have breached technical regulation 6.6.2:

Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.

Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.

[N4D13]

Well, kudos to Hamilton for having pulled off a two-stopper successfully. This shows that he can manage his tyres as well as anyone else, if not better. But this doesn't take away from the fact that his driving style normally puts lots of strain on the tyres, which has often put him in trouble. It would be pointless to say that he couldn't save his tyres before or that he will manage to nurse them in all the following races - he's obviously prone to having problems with his tyres and even though he can make them last, it's not his natural style and so I'd expect him to keep having problems with the tyres from time to time.

[steveaki13]

Brilliantly composed drive by Lewis today.

As I said on the DotD thread.

He had no usual advantage of starting at the back but having alot of new tyres avaliable. He drove through the field after doing a full Quali session.

This season has seen Lewis turn his form right around and is no calm and consistant, while Jenson is all over the place.

[airshifter]

Where are the people who say Hamilton can't manage a set of tyres? He made a 2-stop strategy work and, just as importantly, didn't lose his cool in the face of yet another blunder by his team. :up:

He is a cheater, and stole Buttons tires for the two stopper! Conspiracy I tell you! :laugh:

He paid the price for the teams mistake and made a good drive out of it. I don't think anyone could expect any better.

[SGWilko]

He is a cheater.

I'd say he is faster than a Cheetah!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I still don't understand why he had to drop to the back of the grid and not just lose his times from Q3.

[truefan72]

what whitemarsh is saying

Whitmarsh admits Hamilton blunder - Yahoo! Eurosport (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/14052012/58/whitmarsh-admits-hamilton-blunder.html)

apparently he probably thought they would lose that final Q3 run, or all Q3 times, but did not expect to be placed at the back of the grid
oh well, another race another mclaren blunder costing Hamilton

[Knock-on]

I still don't understand why he had to drop to the back of the grid and not just lose his times from Q3.

Me too. I had a look through the regs and must have missed it. It does say that you need 1 litre for sampleing at any time during the event which must be taken in the Pits apart from during force majure but he made himself availiable for those samples. Seems a bit harsh.

Also, why wasn't FM accepted when I remember several occassions this year when other drivers have pulled up straight after the race has finished and switched off the engine in an attempt, I suspect, to avoid running out of fuel.

Just questions ;)

[SGWilko]

Me too. I had a look through the regs and must have missed it. It does say that you need 1 litre for sampleing at any time during the event which must be taken in the Pits apart from during force majure but he made himself availiable for those samples. Seems a bit harsh.

Also, why wasn't FM accepted when I remember several occassions this year when other drivers have pulled up straight after the race has finished and switched off the engine in an attempt, I suspect, to avoid running out of fuel.

Just questions ;)

The rules on fuel left for samples concerning qually differ from the race. It is all related to park ferme I think.

[Knock-on]

The rules on fuel left for samples concerning qually differ from the race. It is all related to park ferme I think.e grateful if someone can post a link to the passage as I don't have time to go through them again today.

I'd b

[Dave B]

e grateful if someone can post a link to the passage as I don't have time to go through them again today.

I'd b
Here you go:


6.6.2 Competitors must ensure that a one litre sample of fuel may be taken from the car at any time during the Event.Except in cases of force majeure (accepted as such by the stewards of the meeting), if a sample of fuel is required after a practice session the car concerned must have first been driven back to the pits under its own power.

Source: Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/8702/fia.html)

The key phrase is "after a practice session", and for regulatory purposes qualifying is termed a practice session. After the race there's no rule that a car must make it back under its own power. McLaren tried to argue Force Midge-Ure, as I like to call it, but as there was no external influence this was rejected.

Edit: and here's the FIA ruling on Hamilton (or more accurately McLaren)'s breach:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/esp-document-36.pdf

[SGWilko]

McLaren tried to argue Force Midge-Ure, as I like to call it, but as there was no external influence this was rejected.

Edit: and here's the FIA ruling on Hamilton (or more accurately McLaren)'s breach

But as the stewards were having none of it, it was goodnight Vienna.....

[SGWilko]

PS - Has Lewis found his pole yet, or is it still lost?

[Dave B]

But as the stewards were having none of it, it was goodnight Vienna.....
This means nothing to me.

:p

[SGWilko]

This means nothing to me.

:p

Bu dum, pa te dah dum, tissshhhhhhh

[Knock-on]

OMG, this forum gets cheesier by the second. :laugh:

Thanks for the Statement Dave. The Midge Ure in this case was taking the p1ss if I wouldn't have even tried to argue it and just said "woops, we cocked up" and take it on the chin.

Still seems a bit harsh to disqualify him from all the qualifying though. Just my tuppence worth.

[Tazio]

PS - Has Lewis found his pole yet, or is it still lost?
They found it just outside lorenna bobbit's bedroom window, laying on the front lawn. :s ailor:

[Tazio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBR2Jobecg4&feature=fvwrel
At monaco Lewis is going to be Jell.
I wonder what Ferrari might have up their slevese, pure Corinthian leather?
At this point I would turn it over to billy-bob, kind of need his duty along with Donn Capps in you pocket. It is a beatiful thing

[Tazio]

watch this!! :s ailor:

[SGWilko]

Well now.

What year was it when the Renault's chewed up their Michelin's at Monaco, and we actually had some genuine overtakes?

Let us hope that the Pirelli's this year give us a chance for some Kwalitee racing around the Principality.

I seem to remember that DRS was a non-event last year, but in 2009, the teams that ran it, found KERS was really quite useful.

One to relish methinks. I shall certainly be stocking the beer cooler in readiness! :)

[steveaki13]

Well now.

What year was it when the Renault's chewed up their Michelin's at Monaco, and we actually had some genuine overtakes?

:)

2005.

Fernando was passed by Heidfeld and Webber in the Williams on that day.

And Fisi had a 5 car que behind him then they all passed him in 1 lap. I remember Trulli in the Toyota launching over the lowe's hairpin curbs and damaging the car. It was spectacular.