Please BMW, something different this time!! (an open letter)

[EuroTroll]

I think we all here have watched the developments of Mini in the WRC with a huge amount of frustration. They clearly have a competitive car, and Prodrive have very competent drivers. They could be a real force in the WRC, yet choose not to be.

It's time to try a bit of rallyforum affirmative action, methinks. Let's compose a letter to the top motorsports people at BMW, and once the letter is complete I'll send an e-mail to them drawing their attention to it. Here's the first draft:

------------------

Dear Mr. .....

We the rally fans at Motorsportforums.com were very excited to see Mini enter the circle of WRC manufacturers. We now, however, watch its progress with dismay and frustration.

It is clear to anyone who follows rallying that Prodrive have made a very competitive car for the WRC, and it has very competent drivers in Dani Sordo and Kris Meeke. Yet, due to budgetary constraints, they are only able to take part in few select rounds of the WRC. This, it seems, is because BMW is unwilling to commit fully to Mini's WRC programme, which we think is a huge mistake on your part.

Why? Because you have got all the ingredients to achieve great success in rallying, and possibly make the Mini a WRC legend. We strongly urge you to commit fully to Mini's WRC programme, and if you do so, you will earn the respect and gratitude of rally fans around the world.

Yours truly,
Members of the Rally Forum at Motorsportforums.com

-----------------------

Please feel free to comment and add to this.

[grugsticles]

I whole heartedly agree but if I were a CEO of BMW I would read the letter and promptly put it in the 'maybe ill look at that later' pile.

We should make mention of how further financial investment will be beneficial to BMW as a brand.
Things like market advertising figures of Motorsport vs non-Motorsport based advertising, why the Mini would appeal to the average rally fan through its history and pedigree, and examples of brand name loyalty (Im personally thinking of Subaru here, It would take a lot for me to buy any other branded car mainly through what they achieved in rallying).

[EuroTroll]

I whole heartedly agree but if I were a CEO of BMW I would read the letter and promptly put it in the 'maybe ill look at that later' pile.

We should make mention of how further financial investment will be beneficial to BMW as a brand.
Things like market advertising figures of Motorsport vs non-Motorsport based advertising, why the Mini would appeal to the average rally fan through its history and pedigree, and examples of brand name loyalty (Im personally thinking of Subaru here, It would take a lot for me to buy any other branded car mainly through what they achieved in rallying).

Thanks for the addition!

I thought we could send it to people who are in charge of BMW Motorsport. I've got a few e-mail addresses, they are in the public domain. It's unlikely to make a difference, I agree, but you never know! If enough of us voice our opinion on this, it might make top people at BMW to take notice.

So come on, guys. Let's hear your voice! ;)

[JAM]

And would be good also explain that the WRC don't have a promoter, but probably would have one iu the future.

To talk about the ROI and not mention a thing like that, would be disasterous

[AndyRAC]

While your sentiments are noble and well meaning, you’re wasting your time.BMW aren’t interested in the WRC, it’s a minority world Motorsport, and they’re not going to invest their money in it. What would they get out of it?
They have supposed bigger fish to fry with the DTM were they will take on the might of their Premium rivals, Mercedes & Audi. The WRC doesn’t offer this.Sorry to rain on your parade. Your enthusiasm does you credit.

[EuroTroll]

And would be good also explain that the WRC don't have a promoter, but probably would have one iu the future.

To talk about the ROI and not mention a thing like that, would be disasterous

:up:

[EuroTroll]

While your sentiments are noble and well meaning, you’re wasting your time.BMW aren’t interested in the WRC, it’s a minority world Motorsport, and they’re not going to invest their money in it. What would they get out of it?
They have supposed bigger fish to fry with the DTM were they will take on the might of their Premium rivals, Mercedes & Audi. The WRC doesn’t offer this.Sorry to rain on your parade. Your enthusiasm does you credit.

No problem at all. I don't mind wasting a little time on this. :cool:

The thing is, we don't know what discussions are really held inside BMW regarding the WRC. Our little letter might give someone a tiny wee bit of a pro-argument. It's unlikely, I admit, but you never know.

[JAM]

:up:

Wiruwiru, i was being ironic, and i explain why.

If you go to a manufacturer to present the WRC, you have a big problem: No promotion. Here ends every eventually little interest in a commercial point of view. In 2011 ther was a promoter, but the media coverage was the same as in 2012 without any promoter. This explains a lot of things.

And a manufacturer choice is basicly commercial.

And let's have hope that the german uninterest by the WRC stops at Mini.

[Plan9]

It would also be cool if we could do something about getting some attention of potential sponsors for Prodrive; maybe then they could do something about the rest of the season in a proper way.

On DTM; BMW has ****ed up its motorsports programs before; the M3 could be a **** box for all we know and worse managed than the F1 program. The Mini program could end up looking good by comparison.

[tfp]

It would also be cool if we could do something about getting some attention of potential sponsors for Prodrive; maybe then they could do something about the rest of the season in a proper way.

On DTM; BMW has ****ed up its motorsports programs before; the M3 could be a **** box for all we know and worse managed than the F1 program. The Mini program could end up looking good by comparison.


And there is the money thing, considering how little they were intending spending on the programme compared to DTM they were getting quite a lot of coverage for their money. Also, they can say that Mini is a rally car, that should be worth it on its own!

[Rallyper]

While your sentiments are noble and well meaning, you’re wasting your time.BMW aren’t interested in the WRC, it’s a minority world Motorsport, and they’re not going to invest their money in it. What would they get out of it?
They have supposed bigger fish to fry with the DTM were they will take on the might of their Premium rivals, Mercedes & Audi. The WRC doesn’t offer this.Sorry to rain on your parade. Your enthusiasm does you credit.

DTM and WRC is two different things regarding two different brands.

Which are BMW and Mini.

BMW has responisibility to develop both brands.

BMW in DTM and - Mini in WRC. That would be a proper way to handle motorsport for BMW.

I hope they discuss it this way. Else they don´t understand nothing about motorsport. Rallying is much bigger than local DTM, by the way...

[leighton323]

I hope they discuss it this way. Else they don´t understand nothing about motorsport. Rallying is much bigger than local DTM, by the way...

That is true however BMW are a very traditional brand, they have been involved with touring car racing for the last 40 years, not only do they do DTM but also GT Endurance racing. They are just sticking to the tradition of BMW. I wish they could just see beyond just circuit racing for once.

[Plan9]

And there is the money thing, considering how little they were intending spending on the programme compared to DTM they were getting quite a lot of coverage for their money. Also, they can say that Mini is a rally car, that should be worth it on its own!

Mini (or MINI) and JCW are very well established rally and racing brands and have a huge following of their own. This deal could have brought a whole new audience to WRC...

Looking back on it now we should have seen this coming (if you consider the BMW deal in financail terms). God knows why they only funded Prodrive for doing the 6 events in 2011. I find it hard to believe Prodrive didn't try and get more involved with Mini in the way they did with Subaru and Honda (WRC & F1 respectively).

[JAM]

God knows why they only funded Prodrive for doing the 6 events in 2011.

Not only god. It's well known that this was the first time with the car and the obvious choice is a litle program. Besides that, Mini funding not only 6 events, they funding with a lot of money the whole development of Mini JCW.

For Mini, it was a choose between a cut with a re-think, or a big increase on funding.

[Plan9]

Maybe Mini will be more serious about this when WRC gets a proper promoter? by the way letter sounds good and you should so email it!

[EuroTroll]

by the way letter sounds good and you should so email it!

I've sent it now, to the heads of "Motorsport Automobil" and "MINI Motorsport" at BMW. I'll let you know if/when I get a response.

[Plan9]

Not only god. It's well known that this was the first time with the car and the obvious choice is a litle program. Besides that, Mini funding not only 6 events, they funding with a lot of money the whole development of Mini JCW.

For Mini, it was a choose between a cut with a re-think, or a big increase on funding.

That information is not news to me. I only raised the funding issue as I was surprised that BMW did not think to cover their asses for 2012 (when most people expected that they would do a full season). I felt that showed a lack of commitment from BMW and a lack for forethought. Or they did not really care about WRC anyway...

[JAM]

That information is not news to me. I only raised the funding issue as I was surprised that BMW did not think to cover their asses for 2012 (when most people expected that they would do a full season). I felt that showed a lack of commitment from BMW and a lack for forethought. Or they did not really care about WRC anyway...

Their commitment is not as big as people would expect.

Let's put the things on that way: A British lobby convinced BMW to enter in WRC, using as argument Prodrive would find finantial background to support partr of the project in 2012 anda 2013. BMW sasy "yes" and paid the beggining of project, but Prodrive didn't find the finantial support and BMW is not interested in supporting Prodrive and the whole project.

Then they decided invest some money (not much) on Motorsport Itália to have one more year and decide what to do: Or pull off WRC, or find a new structure. Let's wait until the end of summer to see what happens.

[Rallyper]

Their commitment is not as big as people would expect.

Let's put the things on that way: A British lobby convinced BMW to enter in WRC, using as argument Prodrive would find finantial background to support partr of the project in 2012 anda 2013. BMW sasy "yes" and paid the beggining of project, but Prodrive didn't find the finantial support and BMW is not interested in supporting Prodrive and the whole project.

Then they decided invest some money (not much) on Motorsport Itália to have one more year and decide what to do: Or pull off WRC, or find a new structure. Let's wait until the end of summer to see what happens.

Sorry, I think you simplify decisions very much. Decisions, whatever financial matter, isn´t made that easy on loose expectations. BMW doesn´t, neither other boards in big companys.

[Barreis]

Germans think the way that would give them better income through good marketing and that's DTM, not WRC unfortunatly.

[Rallyper]

Germans think the way that would give them better income through good marketing and that's DTM, not WRC unfortunatly.

So then BMW wasn´t on in the first place. Have we been mislead by PD? What can we believe in this mess?

[Franky]

Germans think the way that would give them better income through good marketing and that's DTM, not WRC unfortunatly.

They are marketing BMW in DTM and MINI in WRC. How many DTM followers would buy a MINI Countryman based on the performance/looks of a BMW in DTM races? None.
(Or how many Fiats are sold more because Ferrari is producing great cars?)

Those two things can't be put into the same equation as you've done, Barreis.

[BDunnell]

They are marketing BMW in DTM and MINI in WRC. How many DTM followers would buy a MINI Countryman based on the performance/looks of a BMW in DTM races? None.
(Or how many Fiats are sold more because Ferrari is producing great cars?)

Where has this even been suggested?

[AndyRAC]

I do wonder sometimes about the naivety of some people on here towards the WRC......Do some of them watch any other sport/ Motorsport? If so, then you'll realise the WRC isn't 'cutting the mustard'. BMW simply aren't going to fund a project that gives little, or no return. The DTM, whatever it's faults, is their priority; were they take on their Premium class rivals. It's a no brainer.

[Franky]

Where has this even been suggested?

Every post where such words as BMW, DTM and priority are mentioned in this MINI-Prodrive case.

[Rallyper]

I do wonder sometimes about the naivety of some people on here towards the WRC......Do some of them watch any other sport/ Motorsport? If so, then you'll realise the WRC isn't 'cutting the mustard'. BMW simply aren't going to fund a project that gives little, or no return. The DTM, whatever it's faults, is their priority; were they take on their Premium class rivals. It's a no brainer.

Somehow BMW has been involved in the MINI-project. That truth, OK? The question is why they don´t fulfill or maybe even worse pulls out? Isn´t it as PD says? Some people here on this forum do mean that BMW never was in.
I think that just confuses. And it´s not true either.

[Barreis]

Prodrive sucks.

[MrJan]

Every post where such words as BMW, DTM and priority are mentioned in this MINI-Prodrive case.

People are saying that BMW gain more from running BMW M3s in the DTM than they do from running a MINI in the WRC, not saying that they should advertise the MINI in the DTM. BMW will have a set budget, of which a small portion will go to motorsport, they obviously feel that the MINI brand gains more from that budget being spent in other areas (eg TV promotios) than they will from running a Countryman in rallying. TBH I agree, the Countryman isn't going to be purchased by many people that watching rallying, certainly not in the way that Imprezas and Evos were, or even the way that DS3s are/will be.

[Rallyper]

People are saying that BMW gain more from running BMW M3s in the DTM than they do from running a MINI in the WRC, not saying that they should advertise the MINI in the DTM. BMW will have a set budget, of which a small portion will go to motorsport, they obviously feel that the MINI brand gains more from that budget being spent in other areas (eg TV promotios) than they will from running a Countryman in rallying. TBH I agree, the Countryman isn't going to be purchased by many people that watching rallying, certainly not in the way that Imprezas and Evos were, or even the way that DS3s are/will be.

Well, I think that it is loose speculation saying that. In what way can we measure what will happen with numbers of selling cars. Would Citroen and Ford also calculating in that way they´d never be in either.

[AndyRAC]

People are saying that BMW gain more from running BMW M3s in the DTM than they do from running a MINI in the WRC, not saying that they should advertise the MINI in the DTM. BMW will have a set budget, of which a small portion will go to motorsport, they obviously feel that the MINI brand gains more from that budget being spent in other areas (eg TV promotios) than they will from running a Countryman in rallying. TBH I agree, the Countryman isn't going to be purchased by many people that watching rallying, certainly not in the way that Imprezas and Evos were, or even the way that DS3s are/will be.

Thank you, somebody who understands the situation.

[Franky]

TBH I agree, the Countryman isn't going to be purchased by many people that watching rallying, certainly not in the way that Imprezas and Evos were, or even the way that DS3s are/will be.

If they'd actually race, then it might be different. Exposure can bring surprising results.

AndyRAC, the only ones who understand the situation are people in the BMW Motorsport and Prodrive, the rest are only speculating.

[MrJan]

Well, I think that it is loose speculation saying that. In what way can we measure what will happen with numbers of selling cars. Would Citroen and Ford also calculating in that way they´d never be in either.

Yes it's speculation, but no doubt BMW have done the research and worked out the figures on what benefits their motorsport programme will have. There will be a whole industry dedicated to working out how things are affected. There is no way that BMW would pull the plug on a successful operation without some serious consideration and analysis. Yes, it sucks, but there are clearly better places to spend your money than the WRC at the minute.

[Rallyper]

But if they did research, why did they cooperate with PD in the first place, having full up with DTM as well?

[jcatanho]

People are saying that BMW gain more from running BMW M3s in the DTM than they do from running a MINI in the WRC, not saying that they should advertise the MINI in the DTM. BMW will have a set budget, of which a small portion will go to motorsport, they obviously feel that the MINI brand gains more from that budget being spent in other areas (eg TV promotios) than they will from running a Countryman in rallying. TBH I agree, the Countryman isn't going to be purchased by many people that watching rallying, certainly not in the way that Imprezas and Evos were, or even the way that DS3s are/will be.

I don't know about other countries but in Portugal women buy more Minis than men do. And as a general rule we can say that women are not that much interested on motorsports. This could be one of the reasons why BMW is not that much interested in spending money with the Mini WRC program.
On the other hand the WRC program could be a way for Mini to sell more cars to men.

[MrJan]

But if they did research, why did they cooperate with PD in the first place, having full up with DTM as well?

Who knows? Perhaps the results of the program didn't match what they were expecting? Perhaps the budget was lowered (seems possible). Obviously they didn't enter into the Prodrive deal without looking at it from a number of angles (it is a lot of money) and I dare say that they didn't just withdraw without a lot of thought and analysis...especially given the 'out of the box' pace of the car.

Edit: I suspect that they were also expecting to secure a few more sponsors after the first few rallies....and of course they didn't expect North One to go to the wall and leave the WRC without a promoter.

To my mind the question isn't "why did x team leave", it's more a case of "why are Ford and Citroen still here"? The WRC is in a very weak position at the minute.

[dimviii]

do we know production numbers for mini and bmw? maybe this explains a lot....
another point can be if bmw is going to keep mini for years...
food for thought.

[Rallyper]

Maybe WRC should start from square one again, meaning.... back to the 70´s or so...

[N.O.T]

Maybe WRC should start from square one again, meaning.... back to the 70´s or so...

in what way ??

[sollitt]

But if they did research, why did they cooperate with PD in the first place, having full up with DTM as well?Probably this;
A British lobby convinced BMW to enter in WRC, using as argument Prodrive would find finantial background to support partr of the project in 2012 anda 2013. BMW sasy "yes" and paid the beggining of project, but Prodrive didn't find the finantial support and BMW is not interested in supporting Prodrive and the whole project.

Franky is correct. It is all just speculation, guesswork. But this is the most plausible.

[BDunnell]

I suspect that they were also expecting to secure a few more sponsors after the first few rallies....and of course they didn't expect North One to go to the wall and leave the WRC without a promoter.

What we don't, and may never, know is exactly how ambitious the sponsorship targets were that Prodrive hoped to hit. Prodrive's leadership is far from stupid — yes, the Subaru WRC team wasn't at its best towards the end, and yes, the Aston Le Mans effort turned into an embarrassment, but this is not a company that's naive about what's needed to win in motorsport or that's lost its way. The pace of the Mini straight out of the box proved that. It's often said that there is a degree of delusion from those deeply involved in the WRC as to its current level of strength. Was Prodrive expecting too much in the way of commercial backing for its WRC effort?



To my mind the question isn't "why did x team leave", it's more a case of "why are Ford and Citroen still here"? The WRC is in a very weak position at the minute.

The same could have been said of Vauxhall in British Touring Car racing circa 2001. It could be argued, I suppose, that it enables a manufacturer to have an easier chance of winning something and gaining publicity for that success if two manufacturers are involved rather than, say, 10. On the one hand, if there is publicity to be had as a result, who in the general public is to know the success was achieved against little opposition, given the championship's relatively low profile? On the other, I'm unsure now how much car manufacturers directly use motorsport success for general publicity, as they used to do. It may pass a lot of people by, especially in a championship with as little profile and mainstream media coverage as the WRC now enjoys.

[AndyRAC]

Ford will get more publicity from their sponsoring of the Champions League than winning the WRC. Simple....
Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars, anything that helps them achieve that is deemed worthwhile. I haven't seen a Ford WRC advert for years.
I want nothing more than a strong, competitive WRC with more Manufacturers, drivers, coverage, etc..but it's a long way from being there.
If I was the Motorsport boss of a car company, I wouldn't be looking at the WRC at the moment.

[MrJan]

Reasoned answers as always Mr Dunnell. I would imagine that Prodrive expected something more in the way of sponsors, whether they expected too much is a different matter. I don't think it would be unreasonable for them to have believed that they could snare a largish main sponsor, not to the scale of Red Bull but still a main sponsor. At a guess I would say that they were aware that they could build a quick car, and therefore would expect sponsors to latch on (I know that I expected it to happen). Without knowing the budget that they set, or the charges they levied at potential sponsors, it's difficult to say either way.

It's true that there isn't a lot of mainstream stuff about the WRC, but then I can't remember seeing a lot of Subaru adverts when they were winning everything, so I'm not sure if that's a recent thing or the way it's been since the early 90s. What I do know is that MINI, Michelin and Citroen regularly ran newspaper adverts boasting of success in the WRC last season.

[Plan9]

+1 I agree. About some sponsors there were some pretty wild rumors on here awhile ago about what kind of company Prodrive was trying to attract. Can anyone remember how long the Countryman Chassis has for homologation? Something like until 2018? Are we to assume that someone will be using these cars for something for awhile yet?

[Rallyper]

So BMW in their efforts to do serious research are being overtalked by a lobby to get into PD´s Mini project? And from the lobby´s word take decisions? That wouldn´t have been a serious evaluation.

Back to the 70´s means for example what happend just after - Audi started rallying with 4wd. Before they were nothing, I repeat nothing. Without rallying Audi would probably still be nothing...

[leighton323]

So BMW in their efforts to do serious research are being overtalked by a lobby to get into PD´s Mini project? And from the lobby´s word take decisions? That wouldn´t have been a serious evaluation.

Back to the 70´s means for example what happend just after - Audi started rallying with 4wd. Before they were nothing, I repeat nothing. Without rallying Audi would probably still be nothing...

But that is completely different, what Audi did was revolutionary. They changed automotive culture altogether. The Mini WRC is a completely different kettle of fish.

[N.O.T]

Also back in the stone age of the seventies marketing and economy was completely different... if you try to play by the rules of 40 years back in the modern era you are doomed... especially when we talk about huge companies like automotive manufacturers.

[rallyfiend]

Ford will get more publicity from their sponsoring of the Champions League than winning the WRC. Simple....
Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars, anything that helps them achieve that is deemed worthwhile. I haven't seen a Ford WRC advert for years.
I want nothing more than a strong, competitive WRC with more Manufacturers, drivers, coverage, etc..but it's a long way from being there.
If I was the Motorsport boss of a car company, I wouldn't be looking at the WRC at the moment.

Fair point, but with Ford's estimated spend on the Champion's League being valued at €100 million over the next 3 years, their WRC spend is but a drop in the ocean.

Ford probably spend on activating one match what they spend on a whole season of WRC....

[N.O.T]

Ford probably spend on activating one match what they spend on a whole season of WRC....

yes but the publicity they got was probably the same as they would get from the involvement in the WRC for 10 years...

you cannot compete with mainstream ladyboy sports like Football and F1 when everyone and their mothers are watching it... WRC will never be like that.

And the people involved must understand that and act accordingly...in that way both the sport and the manufacturers will benefit.

The WRC should leave the FIA and form its own governing body...you cannot have a company that makes billions from one sport to govern another one...it is inevitable they will ignore the little brother...i would do it, you would do it, everyone would do it....you will allways feed the cow that produces the most milk.

[rallyfiend]

yes but the publicity they got was probably the same as they would get from the involvement in the WRC for 10 years...

you cannot compete with mainstream ladyboy sports like Football and F1 when everyone and their mothers are watching it... WRC will never be like that.

And the people involved must understand that and act accordingly...in that way both the sport and the manufacturers will benefit.

The WRC should leave the FIA and form its own governing body...you cannot have a company that makes billions from one sport to govern another one...it is inevitable they will ignore the little brother...i would do it, you would do it, everyone would do it....you will allways feed the cow that produces the most milk.

The sad thing is though, the FIA does not make billions from F1.
They sold it for 100 years for circa $300 million a few years back, and all that money is now held by the FIA Foundation - a chartable trust over which President todt has no control.
They would be paid a nominal fee to provide sporting services for FOM. That's it.
that's why the WRC is probably run the way it is without the freedom of a proper promoter. They're scared of what they did for F1.

[N.O.T]

The sad thing is though, the FIA does not make billions from F1.
They sold it for 100 years for circa $300 million a few years back, and all that money is now held by the FIA Foundation - a chartable trust over which President todt has no control.
They would be paid a nominal fee to provide sporting services for FOM. That's it.
that's why the WRC is probably run the way it is without the freedom of a proper promoter. They're scared of what they did for F1.

you believe the above things you said ??

[BDunnell]

you believe the above things you said ??

Maybe you might like to explain why you don't?

[N.O.T]

well the second part makes no sense... FIA afraids the wrc becomes popular in case someone asks to buy it and they sell it ??? well guess what... THEY DO NOT SELL IT !!! and they become rich by having the best motorsport under their control....its called learning from their mistakes....

On the first part...legal issues do not let me reply...

[rallyfiend]

well the second part makes no sense... FIA afraids the wrc becomes popular in case someone asks to buy it and they sell it ??? well guess what... THEY DO NOT SELL IT !!! and they become rich by having the best motorsport under their control....its called learning from their mistakes....

On the first part...legal issues do not let me reply...

The FIA is a not a commercial body, they do not have the expertise to run a sport. They know this, and that's why they sell / lease championship to proper commercial entities.
One could argue that F1 got so popular because it has always had a promoter with total commercial control. this then allowed the FIA to benefit from the 300 million after someone else had done the hard work.
The WRC has always remained a political football for things like the calendar control, which they have never given to anyone else. Perhaps that is why the sport is in the position that it is. No ability for someone thinking with a straight mind to chose well run events or take the sport more quickly to where the money is.
Do you think a proper promoter would have chosen Jordan over Abu Dhabi? Would many of the other poor events like Sardinia or others still be on the calendar. Would RallyGB have been allowed to fester the way it has in recent years other than for the influence of the some of the MSA political elites in the FIA?

As for the first part, this is all on public record. I can't for the life of me conceive why you think you would be so influential or knowledgable as to have any information that would cause any legal concerns.

Put up, or shut up, as they say.

[AndyRAC]

yes but the publicity they got was probably the same as they would get from the involvement in the WRC for 10 years...

you cannot compete with mainstream ladyboy sports like Football and F1 when everyone and their mothers are watching it... WRC will never be like that.

And the people involved must understand that and act accordingly...in that way both the sport and the manufacturers will benefit.

The WRC should leave the FIA and form its own governing body...you cannot have a company that makes billions from one sport to govern another one...it is inevitable they will ignore the little brother...i would do it, you would do it, everyone would do it....you will allways feed the cow that produces the most milk.

Agree with the first part, but not the second.
The sport isn't as big or successful as everybody in it thinks. As such, they need to cut their cloth accordingly.


There's no way they will/or can leave the FiA....And anyway, the FiA don't promote or run Motorsport, they govern it. Remember Max selling the 99 years rights to F1 for a pittance - and gave away any rights over the calendar. Which is why they still have the final say on the WRC calendar.

[N.O.T]

The FIA is a not a commercial body, they do not have the expertise to run a sport. They know this, and that's why they sell / lease championship to proper commercial entities.
One could argue that F1 got so popular because it has always had a promoter with total commercial control. this then allowed the FIA to benefit from the 300 million after someone else had done the hard work.
The WRC has always remained a political football for things like the calendar control, which they have never given to anyone else. Perhaps that is why the sport is in the position that it is. No ability for someone thinking with a straight mind to chose well run events or take the sport more quickly to where the money is.
Do you think a proper promoter would have chosen Jordan over Abu Dhabi? Would many of the other poor events like Sardinia or others still be on the calendar. Would RallyGB have been allowed to fester the way it has in recent years other than for the influence of the some of the MSA political elites in the FIA?

As for the first part, this is all on public record. I can't for the life of me conceive why you think you would be so influential or knowledgable as to have any information that would cause any legal concerns.

Put up, or shut up, as they say.

how many non profit organisations do you know who are just that ??? Lets leave it there...

they do not have the expertise to run the sport but they have the expertise to govern it ?? hmmmmm

[MrJan]

The word 'expertise' can only be loosely used to describe the FIA ;)

[rallyfiend]

IF FIA doesn't have the expertise to run a sport, who has it? A lot of words, but your post doesn't make sence... If you would follow F1 a little bit, you would know that there's a lot to do about the calendar there also, so not only in WRC... One good reason to chose Abu Dhabi over Jordan? Sardinia is a nice event, and since they're always in again it seems that the organisation there is doing a good job. And what other poor events are you talking about?

Easy to criticise, time to "defend" your arguments...

When I say 'run' a sport, I mean promote. To commercialise, to grow. This is what Bernie has been able to do to F1 with the hands-off approach taken by the FIA (when I say 'taken' I of course mean 'forced on them by contract'!).

Why was the IRC able to grow so quickly in it's first few years? Because it was fully in the control of a commercial promoter who could pick and choose the best option for their business plan. It's how they were able to take Monte away - they could say to them 'do what you want'.
That's never been allowed in the WRC.
To chose Abu Dhabi over Jordan? Ask Malcolm how his budget is without the money from Abu Dhabi. Did't they leave because they got dumped off the calendar twice because of politics inside of FIA? How is that good for the sport? That must have been many millions leaving.
Sardinia might be a good event (it wasn't when I went a couple of years ago, you wouldn't have even know the event was on) but surely San Remo would be better?
Now as for Wales Rally GB. I have been to that event many times as it is my 'local' and it is terrible. last year was a disgrace in terms of Service Park and promotion. Especially considering what they charge for tickets.

[Franky]

Sardinia might be a good event (it wasn't when I went a couple of years ago, you wouldn't have even know the event was on)

My relatives had the same feeling when they attended Rally NZ in the first half of 2000s

[Rallyper]

So why isn´t WRC "fully in the control of a commercial promoter who could pick and choose the best option for their business plan"? FIA just should set the rules or maybe even not that. But running WRC doesn´t seem to be a ggod work for them.
(Are we a bit of topic now?)

[Lousada]

The FIA is a not a commercial body, they do not have the expertise to run a sport. They know this, and that's why they sell / lease championship to proper commercial entities.
The FIA is not allowed to be a commercial body. This has been well established in the '90s. They are only allowed to govern, the commercial activities are to be undertaken by a promotor or the organisers themselves.


One could argue that F1 got so popular because it has always had a promoter with total commercial control. this then allowed the FIA to benefit from the 300 million after someone else had done the hard work.
This is not what actually happened in history. And still, the WRC had a promotor for more than 10 years now and it only went downhill since.


The WRC has always remained a political football for things like the calendar control, which they have never given to anyone else. Perhaps that is why the sport is in the position that it is. No ability for someone thinking with a straight mind to chose well run events or take the sport more quickly to where the money is.
Do you think a proper promoter would have chosen Jordan over Abu Dhabi? Would many of the other poor events like Sardinia or others still be on the calendar. Would RallyGB have been allowed to fester the way it has in recent years other than for the influence of the some of the MSA political elites in the FIA?
Just look at the demands the FIA places on organisers. You can be absolutely sure every event is as safe and wellrun as possible. The event may not be well promoted, but again, that is not the FIAs job but the organisers.

[JAM]

I can't see one only objective reason on why can't FIA be a promoter of a championship like WRC.

[JAM]

Probably this;

Franky is correct. It is all just speculation, guesswork. But this is the most plausible.

Is not speculation, is very near the true reasons. I think that the diferences are only details. But on this forum people prefer to discuss wich is the sex of an angel than to look at the objective things.

And i repeat, BMW don't want to support Prodrive, because Prodrive spent all the money and was unable to find budget for this year as was agreed on the contract. As BMW only entered on this project because someone promissed that they would spend much money, they decided to stop when realised that would spend more than planned.

[Franky]

Is not speculation, is very near the true reasons.

"Speculation - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence."

[JAM]

"Speculation - a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence."

I didn't expressed an opinion. I wrote facts.

If you don't believe, at least you could be honest and write "i don't belive your version".

[Tom206wrc]

Me thinks BMW is more committed to/interested in circuit racing(DTM, endurance,...) :mark: