Whiners of the 2007 season

[ioan]

The season started and we already have several allegations of cheating, fraud an so on.

I thought about starting a thread about the whining cases, more or less founded, that we witness this season.

First we have Spyker starting the arbitration case against TorroRosso, RBR an SAF1.

Than there is Ron Dennis questioning parts of other teams cars.

The last news is that McLaren complained about three separate elements of 2007 Ferrari at the Oz GP.
However: <<It is understood that Whiting, the FIA's technical delegate, declared the F2007 legal.>>

Link: http://www.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/070327100350.shtml

[BeansBeansBeans]

Teams will always protest the legality of the opposition's cars if they feel that rules are being broken and an unfair advantage is being gained. This has always been the way, and I don't know why you feel the need to trivialise it as whining.

If Chelsea fielded 12 players, Man Utd would probably complain. Would that be unreasonable?

[Ranger]

I predict we'll see a lot of whiners on this forum. ;)

[555-04Q2]

New season, new drivers, same old cr@p :down:

[CharlieJ]

Best way to stop the whining would be to have only two regulations.....
A set maximum amount of fuel for the race, and no wheel covers. Then let the teams do their best and see what technical solutions they come up with. (6 wheel Tyrrell anyone?) ;)

[Big Ben]

In my view they all should shut up and accept everything!
Ioan, how comes that you didn't start a "whiners of the 2006 season" thread last year? forget about it... don't bother answering it... it's a waste of time.

[ioan]

forget about it... don't bother answering it... it's a waste of time.

You bet it is! :p :

[F1boat]

Dennis for accusing Ferrari and BMW of cheating and BMW for ruining his win in Melbourne.
Spyker for accusing SA team after being several seconds off the pace.
Flavio for bashing poor Heiki.

[CarlMetro]

The reason the sport has rules and regulations is to set limits of acceptability. It is the teams job to get as close to those limits as if physically and technically possible. If one team believes that another has gone past the limit in a particular area, or is stretching the definition of the regulation in the first place, then they have every right to ask for further investigations to be made.

I don't see it as whining, I see it as an appropriate course of action to take and would expect any team to do so.

:arrow: ioan, I didn't see you produce a thread like this when Ferrari lodged their complaints about mass-damper systems, the extra fuel capacity on the BAR Honda or the tread width on Michelin's, why now? Because RD is pointing the finger at Ferrari? Of course my beloved Ferrari would never cheat, would they?

[harsha]

we know that ioan is blind to whatever ferrari does,it really doesn't come as a surprise to me

[ioan]

:arrow: ioan, I didn't see you produce a thread like this when Ferrari lodged their complaints about mass-damper systems, the extra fuel capacity on the BAR Honda or the tread width on Michelin's, why now? Because RD is pointing the finger at Ferrari? Of course my beloved Ferrari would never cheat, would they?

Maybe because it wasn't Ferrari who complained about the Renault mass dampers in first stance, it was RD's McLaren!
And the Honda fuel tank was an independent action of the FIA, I've seen no article stating that any other teams ever complained about it.

As for the width of the Michelin tires in 2003 they were proved to be let's say "not fair".

Nor did Ferrari launch arbitration against other teams.

But I didn't start a "whiners" thread last year neither when others where accusing Ferrari.

So really I don't see your point against my thread. I was just willing to create some dialog on the forum for tis 3 week break between races.

[ioan]

we know that ioan is blind to whatever ferrari does,it really doesn't come as a surprise to me

Maybe you could discuss the topic of the thread instead of personal attacks?

[CarlMetro]

Maybe because it wasn't Ferrari who complained about the Renault mass dampers in first stance, it was RD's McLaren!

I suggest you go back and check your facts, the initial protest was filed by Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis onkly poured petrol on the flames.



So really I don't see your point against my thread. I was just willing to create some dialog on the forum for tis 3 week break between races.

My point against you thread is simple. If it was Jean Todt doing all the shouting, you would not have produced this thread. But because someone has accused Ferrari of cheating, and lets be honest it would not be the first time they have stretched the rules beyond the limits, then immediately you accuse them of whining.

But then hey, you only want to create a bit of dialogue whilst there's a three week break :rolleyes: Well you certainly done that :down:

[ioan]

I suggest you go back and check your facts, the initial protest was filed by Ross Brawn, Ron Dennis onkly poured petrol on the flames.


There was a discussion about this in another thread:
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227415&postcount=36
where it was pointed out that according to autosport.com McLaren were the ones that started to question the Renault mass dampers, not Ferrari.
I have no autosport.com subscription so I can't give you the a link to a half a year old article.

[jens]

I predict we'll see a lot of whiners on this forum. ;)

Spot On! :up: ;)

(btw, it seems to be in human nature to take everything more dramatically than it actually is...)

[race aficionado]

There was a discussion about this in another thread:
http://forums.motorsport.com/forums/showpost.php?p=227415&postcount=36


There still IS a discussion on that particular thread Ioan, but I guess you just want to lump up the whinning.

whine on.

:s mokin:

[raphael123]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed Ioan's 'style' shall we put it. I thought maybe I was the only one, so it's good to see other people are aware :) I hope one day he can change his signature to something more appropriate :)

Onto the topic though, I don't think anything is wrong with complaining, though it seems when a team complains about Ferrari, the FIA deem it legal, but vice versa, you know the chances are if Ferrari have lodged a complaint or enquiry, the FIA will agree. Nothing much we can do about it. Everyone knows of the suspicions that the FIA are biased, and Monza last year didn't do anything to suggest anything has changed. When a decision goes against Ferrari, when it's 50/50 maybe we can start talking about whether the FIA do favour Ferrari. Until then, so far it's quite clear they are, unfortunately.

[jas123f1]

McLaren Mercedes complained about no fewer than three separate elements of Ferrari's dominant 2007 car.

Why?

Because Ron Dennis :blackeye: is an "defeated man" who don’t like that other cars are quicker on the track. Ron thinks that if McLaren can’t make a better car than the other teams, possible he can make the others worse. :arrows:

He doesn’t care as far McLaren is best – but if some other team is quicker – they "must have" a weak point somewhere – the question is only where? :)

[ioan]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed Ioan's 'style' shall we put it. I thought maybe I was the only one, so it's good to see other people are aware :) I hope one day he can change his signature to something more appropriate :)

Your apropos are getting a bit boring, and a bit to personal.

[ioan]

McLaren Mercedes complained about no fewer than three separate elements of Ferrari's dominant 2007 car.

Why?

Because Ron Dennis :blackeye: is an "defeated man" who don’t like that other cars are quicker on the track. Ron thinks that if McLaren can’t make a better car than the other teams, possible he can make the others worse. :arrows:

He doesn’t care as far McLaren is best – but if some other team is quicker – they "must have" a weak point somewhere – the question is only where? :)

A bit like last year with the Renault mass dampers (Ferrari were using them too though). When RD realized that they were half way through the season and no chance of a win, because Renault were faster since ever and Ferrari were getting even faster than Renault as soon as they developed the mass dampers themselves, he complained about the mass dampers being aero devices.
McLaren had developped also a system that gave about the same results as the mass dampers but working differently and being less effective. Their system was not outlawed by the FIA but the surprise was that Renault and Ferrari were still pretty much faster than the Macs.

I guess this season will be the same. They contest Ferrari and BMW's floors but still these teams will be the ones to beat them at the end of the season.

[Robinho]

they haven't contested the floors, they've written to the FIA and asked if they can use a system that they believe is the same as Farrari and BMW. this will have one of 2 outcome, 1 they are allowed and they will run the same system, which if they get it working the same (it seems relatively simple) then the advantage of the teams from using this part will be lost.

alternatively they will not and Ferrari and BMW will have to stop using something designated as being outside the rules. which seems fair. reading the autosport piece on how it works it seems pretty obvious that it is a movable part with a primary goal of increased aero efficiency, and a very clever one at that which passes the rules on flexibilty when stationary due to the strength of the springs involved, but under the massive loads imposed on the underside of the car at speed it moves causing the Diffuser to stall meaning a higher straight line speed for a given level of downforce, or the opportunity for a higher level of downforce for a given top speed

if the FIA test the cars without the springs in place as they have clarified then the floor will presumably flex more than allowed and therefore be illegal.

these clarifications happen every year, and every year someone brings it to he attention of the rule makes, whether beacuse they feel it is unfair or because they didn't think of it first. either way, its not the teams rules, its the FIA's and the ambiguity of them causes these situations all the time.

i don't blame Ferrari or BMW for trying to exploit something, nor other teams (Mclaren this time) for asking for it to be clarified.

[tintop]

they haven't contested the floors, they've written to the FIA and asked if they can use a system that they believe is the same as Farrari and BMW. this will have one of 2 outcome, 1 they are allowed and they will run the same system, which if they get it working the same (it seems relatively simple) then the advantage of the teams from using this part will be lost.

alternatively they will not and Ferrari and BMW will have to stop using something designated as being outside the rules. which seems fair. reading the autosport piece on how it works it seems pretty obvious that it is a movable part with a primary goal of increased aero efficiency, and a very clever one at that which passes the rules on flexibilty when stationary due to the strength of the springs involved, but under the massive loads imposed on the underside of the car at speed it moves causing the Diffuser to stall meaning a higher straight line speed for a given level of downforce, or the opportunity for a higher level of downforce for a given top speed

if the FIA test the cars without the springs in place as they have clarified then the floor will presumably flex more than allowed and therefore be illegal.

these clarifications happen every year, and every year someone brings it to he attention of the rule makes, whether beacuse they feel it is unfair or because they didn't think of it first. either way, its not the teams rules, its the FIA's and the ambiguity of them causes these situations all the time.

i don't blame Ferrari or BMW for trying to exploit something, nor other teams (Mclaren this time) for asking for it to be clarified.

Quite a reasonable post, doesn't seem in the spirit of whining at all. :D

[ioan]

Quite a reasonable post, doesn't seem in the spirit of whining at all. :D

Maybe accusing BMW for ruining their race isn't either. ;)

[tintop]

Maybe accusing BMW for ruining their race isn't either.
;)

Uhm what? Who is accusing BMW of ruining "their" race, and what does "isn't either" in reference to? :confused:

[BeansBeansBeans]

Uhm what? Who is accusing BMW of ruining "their" race

I think Ioan is referring to comments made by Ron Dennis to the effect that McLaren's race strategy was compromised by BMW's. As I stated earlier, this was not an accusation, or a criticism of BMW by Dennis, it was merely a fact.

[tintop]

I think Ioan is referring to comments made by Ron Dennis to the effect that McLaren's race strategy was compromised by BMW's. As I stated earlier, this was not an accusation, or a criticism of BMW by Dennis, it was merely a fact.


OK thanks Beans, I just didn't seem to understand what this had to do with complementing Robinho's rational, non-emotional assessment of the whole affair?

[ioan]

OK thanks Beans, I just didn't seem to understand what this had to do with complementing Robinho's rational, non-emotional assessment of the whole affair?

It had nothing to do with Robinho's, only with yours.

[ArrowsFA1]

i don't blame Ferrari or BMW for trying to exploit something, nor other teams (Mclaren this time) for asking for it to be clarified.
:up:

[tintop]

It had nothing to do with Robinho's, only with yours.


[RE Robinho's post] Quite a reasonable post, doesn't seem in the spirit of whining at all. :D

Again the pathos here is quite interesting. My comments (above) only had to do with Robinho's post. I praised him for putting out a reasonable summary without a tinge of bias or "whining" as it were. Somehow you imputed a latent BMW -Mercedes conflict into that simple sentence. It is a disturbing thought process that seems to require conflict at every turn. :(