Bahrain GP- Will it be Cancelled? [Archive]

steveaki13

2nd April 2012, 00:09

I know there was a thread on this a year ago, but I thought it would be too old to reopen.

I found this article by James Allen on the contigency plans for the Bahrain GP weekend.
Trouble on the ground in BahrainJames Allen on F1 (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/04/trouble-on-the-ground-in-bahrain/)

Personally I can't believe this race is ever going to happen.
It shouldn't in my view, but you never know with Bernie.

I know we have discussed it in length before, but this is surely going to overshadow the Chinese weekend, as teams and personel chew over whats going to happen.

So a year on from the cancelled race last year have your views changed?
Should F1 go to Bahrain or not?

N4D13

2nd April 2012, 00:41

Well, I'm pretty sure almost everyone at here will agree that F1 should NOT go to Bahrain. It would be very dangerous for the sport, the teams and the drivers. Joe Saward has a few articles on this which you might consider reading - I'm just too lazy to put them here, so if you want to read them, you can look for them yourselves. ;)

Now, the real question is - WILL F1 go to Bahrain? And if I were a betting man, I'd be putting my money on that they'd go. It doesn't really look like that the teams are movilizing against the Bahrain race as they did last year, although you can never really know what's going on inside F1. However, the teams haven't said much about this and at this time, their indifference makes me believe that they'll be going to the Bahrain race.

N. Jones

2nd April 2012, 04:14

I hope so.

steveaki13

2nd April 2012, 18:45

Bagwan

3rd April 2012, 15:18

Knock-on

3rd April 2012, 20:47

IceWizard

3rd April 2012, 23:12

Hawkmoon

4th April 2012, 05:15

f1kid1987

4th April 2012, 10:34

Indeed. It seems as though the right decision isn't the Bernie decision.

The Question of SHOULD F1 go to Bahrain is simple to answer surely. No!!!!
The Question of WILL F1 go to Bahrain is a more difficult to answer. ????

I agree i dont think they should go to Bahrain.

BDunnell

4th April 2012, 11:17

Politics and Sport should not mix so I say yes as long as it's safe for everyone involved.

If the event is cancelled, then the problems in that country are ignored but if it goes ahead, then the spotlight of the world is on the country which can only help.

With much respect, I disagree entirely. Politics and sport always mix, and there is nothing that can be done about it. Look at the way Hitler sought to use sport (including motorsport) for his own ends, or the symbolic importance of the cricket tour bans during the apartheid period in South Africa. I consider it most naive, I'm afraid, to suggest that events in Bahrain should have no influence on whether the GP goes ahead. How exactly will holding a motor race there help? The spotlight was well and truly on Bahrain during the events there last year, and that didn't help. Why should the staging of a sporting event be any different? And to say that events there are otherwise being ignored simply isn't true. They continue to be reported by many news outlets. I see the GP only as legitimising the current Bahrain regime, not helping those opposed to it. How can it be viewed otherwise, given what a pet project this is of the country's leadership?

BDunnell

4th April 2012, 11:17

As long as the organisers are confident that the race is going to be safe then I agree that it should go ahead. If Formula 1 was to refuse to go purely on human rights grounds then surely it shouldn't be going to places such as China either? It's a dangerous game to start and if you play it then where exactly do you draw the line?

I don't believe it should go to China either, on exactly those grounds, for I believe the West's attitude towards human rights abuses in China is pretty shameful.

BDunnell

4th April 2012, 11:25

F1 shouldn't be going to Bahrain for a bunch of reasons - insipid circuit, little to no local fan support for example - but I think Knockie is right, politics and sport shouldn't mix.

They shouldn't, but they do, and this has been a fact of life for years. This can't just be ignored.

It's not F1's job to police human rights.

But surely it ought to avoid the sending-out of what amounts to a message of support for the current regime in Bahrain, one that has been responsible for some appalling human rights abuses? The GP is a project so personally backed by the regime that it simply cannot be viewed any other way. It's all very well to say that politics and sport shouldn't mix, but they do, and that's a fact of life. Sport has often been used by politicians to make political statements. Therefore, given the way it has been used by others for such ends, it is entirely appropriate on occasion for sport to take its own stand against politicians. The Bahrain GP is just such an example. If the line can't be drawn in the case of Bahrain, a country where the regime's forces are reported as actively having stopped ambulances from taking wounded protesters to hospital, where can it?

schmenke

4th April 2012, 16:44

... I see the GP only as legitimising the current Bahrain regime, not helping those opposed to it. How can it be viewed otherwise, given what a pet project this is of the country's leadership?

I tend to agree.
Holding a sporting event, especially one as prestigious as F1, would have the effect of belittling the current strife in the country. In effect, demonstrating that the discord in the country is merely a niggling irritant, certainly nothing so troublesome as to warrant cancellation of a major event.

djparky

4th April 2012, 17:02

Nabeel Rajab , president of the Bahrain Centre for Human Rights , said :
"We are going to use the opportunities that a lot of journalists are there and we are going to protest everywhere."

Then , he was arrested .

Who's going to fill the grandstands ?
Saudi troops ?

a few camels?? there's never many people there anyway- rubbish track, in a rubbish location, in a country with no interest and dubious politics. But then again f1 races in China and will be going to Russia soon....so where is the line drawn??

aryan

5th April 2012, 05:50

but I think Knockie is right, politics and sport shouldn't mix. It's not F1's job to police human rights.

It's a really twisted way of looking at things to say that human rights is "politics". People are demonstrating weekly in the streets, getting shot at by snipers, and being tortured in detention. This is politics to you?

And no, this isn't similar to China. While China is not a bright beacon of respect for human rights, it is not killing its citizens in broad daylight for protesting in the streets. The last time it did that was in 1989, and I think it would have been terrible if F1 had gone to China after the Tiananmen square protests and pretended that "F1 shouldn't mix with politics".

aryan

5th April 2012, 05:54

But then again f1 races in China and will be going to Russia soon....so where is the line drawn??

I don't know exactly where the line should be drawn either, but to me, when you start shooting people in the streets in broad daylight just because they are peacefully protesting, you have crossed the line.

F1 going to Bahrain will be seen as nothing other than endorsement of the current dictatorship ruling the country.

Malbec

5th April 2012, 10:48

I see the GP only as legitimising the current Bahrain regime, not helping those opposed to it. How can it be viewed otherwise, given what a pet project this is of the country's leadership?

This is exactly what people don't seem to get. The Bahraini government has long said that the security and political situations in their country are not that bad, after all F1 wouldn't be coming if that wasn't the case. They are directly using the presence of F1 as an indicator of the stability of the country.

Its as if GW Bush claimed that the invasion of Iraq was internationally accepted simply because F1 carried on going to Indy.

When the regime in power actively uses the GP for political purposes then F1 has been politicised. Its that simple. The FIA should use those grounds alone to cancel the GP instead of letting the race be cancelled because of the lack of insurance cover.

Unfortunately though, another thing that has to be recognised is that Bahrain is very much seen as being one of ours. The links between Bahrain and the UK for example are very strong and continue to be so. The royal families of both countries still socialise, and Bahraini officers still come to train in the UK. The message the UK government is sending to Bahrain is very much along the lines of weathering the storm instead of changing or significantly altering the regime in place. The French are little different. For these reasons I expect the FIA to do all in its power to get the race to go ahead.

5th April 2012, 12:04

Every city or country wants that a game which is performed at international level, should also be performed there because due to this the country earns benefit in many levels but the board or managing committee should think deeply over it that where do they want to organise the game.

truefan72

5th April 2012, 21:28

I'm tired of the Bahrain talk
I understand the intricacies of the issues but I think that it's been on the calendar now for 2012 and we are close to racing there so let it be.
It was understandable last year, but this year its a different situation. For those who think it legitimizes the government etc, I suspect they would have the same apprehension to other countries hosting GP's with war mongering governments or involved in dicey political matters. Lets try and seperate F1 from the political issues of the country. I know the 2 can be intertwined, but when it comes to Bahrain I feel the west is a bit hypocritical at best and sanctimonious at worst.

BDunnell

5th April 2012, 22:02

Lets try and seperate F1 from the political issues of the country.

Impossible! In this instance, the very staging of the GP is a political act. There is no avoiding this.

Bagwan

5th April 2012, 22:51

It seems that both sides would like the F1 circus to come to town .

The government wants the GP to show the place as , "All systems go , all back to normal" , and the opposing forces want to show the world that this is not the case .

Pretty ironic , if you ask me .

And Bernie wants them all to walk into that snake pit ?

To be sure , all the Bernie cameras will be pointed inward , but the rest will be watching the front gates .
It's gonna be hard to position the race cameras so that no Saudi soldiers are shown .
And , it may be even harder to ensure that no pepper gas floats into the event .
Protesters need only position themselves upwind of the track anywhere to make it unraceable , as the police have no problem spraying the stuff liberally .

They had better start the round-up pretty soon , and they'd better order some more chain-link and razor wire , because they've got a whole population to jail .
Oh , wait , they already have .
Tear gas stock is rising as we speak . Buy in now .

Malbec

6th April 2012, 09:10

Lets try and seperate F1 from the political issues of the country.

How do you do that when both the Bahraini government and protestors are using the GP for political ends already?

The race is only likely to go ahead if the Bahraini government use extreme violence to keep the protestors at bay. There is no other race, possibly no other sporting event this year in that situation.

DexDexter

6th April 2012, 10:55

IMO they should cancel it although F1 has raced in so-so countries before and I like to see as many races as possible. I suspect money is in the heart of it, Bernie doesn't want to lose a race which brings a lot of money to F1.

EuroTroll

6th April 2012, 11:01

I suspect money is in the heart of it, Bernie...

Never! :p :

N4D13

6th April 2012, 18:40

Joe Saward has just written another piece on this subject (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/06/the-what-if-game/). Here's a fragment:

The other scenarios range from minor disruptions such as roads being blocked to stop access to the circuit and F1 people running the gauntlet backwards and forwards from their hotels on roads lined with soldiers; and move up to demonstrations disrupting the F1 grid; violent clashes between protesters and police in the circuit area; people throwing Molotov Cocktails at passing F1 people; or the real disaster scenarios such as F1 figures being kidnapped or even killed. The Bahrain government is trying to suggest that there is no problem in the country, but others in the administration have justified the use of tear gas, saying that Molotov Cocktail attacks are increasing and continuous. The race is clearly now seen as being a political event. The event should thus be stopped because to go ahead would be to breach the FIA statutes, which state that the federation “shall refrain from manifesting racial, political or religious discrimination in the course of its activities and from taking any action in this respect”. It can be argued that a race with a slogan “Unif1ed – One Nation Celebration” is a political statement in a country that is clearly divided on political and religious grounds.

Is this indicative enough of the differences between going to Bahrain and any country with a dubious -at best- human rights records such as China? I'd say it is.

BDunnell

6th April 2012, 19:28

7th April 2012, 19:46

agreehttp://www.camcorderdcr.com

Dave B

8th April 2012, 23:57

Tomorrow's (Monday's) Times has a story claiming F1 teams may pull out of Bahrain on its front page. True or otherwise it gives publicity to the dilemma facing the sport.

http://twitpic.com/show/large/97h2rr

Mark

9th April 2012, 10:27

Interesting. It should never have been put back on the calendar.

Dave B

9th April 2012, 14:42

Here's The Guardian's take on the story (no paywall):

A leading member of the 12 team principals, who would not be named, but who said his views were representative – said: "I feel very uncomfortable about going to Bahrain.

"If I'm brutally frank, the only way they can pull this race off without incident is to have a complete military lock-down there. And I think that would be unacceptable, both for Formula One and for Bahrain. But I don't see any other way they can do it."

Formula One teams want FIA to postpone Bahrain Grand Prix | Sport | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/09/formula-one-bahrain-grand-prix)

:s

N4D13

9th April 2012, 15:29

Here's The Guardian's take on the story (no paywall):

Formula One teams want FIA to postpone Bahrain Grand Prix | Sport | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/09/formula-one-bahrain-grand-prix)

:s
Well, if it's truly a representative view, then it is more likely that the Bahrain GP won't happen. Anyway, I wouldn't put money on it just because The Guardian claims this or that.

Malbec

9th April 2012, 15:49

just because The Guardian claims this or that.

The Guardian isn't claiming anything, they are merely relaying what the unnamed team rep has said about the Bahrain GP and everything the guy is worried about is pretty reasonable.

The problem is there is no incentive for the teams to speak out against the race and a lot to lose if they do, such is the financial influence of the Bahrainis and the power of the FIA.

The scenario I would most worry about is that the demonstrations die out before the race weekend so the FIA have no formal grounds to stop the race on, then the race is 'ambushed' with well coordinated public action. Although I believe the sport as a whole, the FIA and especially FOM in particular deserve the mess they've found themselves in, I sincerely hope no team members or locals get hurt as a result of the race being held.

BDunnell

9th April 2012, 15:50

J4MIE

9th April 2012, 17:53

They shouldn't go, end of. There are too many issues which won't/can't be resolved. Whatever the result, I will not watch the race.

BDunnell

9th April 2012, 18:00

In truth, F1 heads should roll over this, even if the race gets called off. It is absolutely scandalous that the notion of it going ahead should ever even have been entertained for a moment, let alone this stage reached. To me it casts a pall over Todt's FIA presidency. Is this, perhaps, what Ecclestone wants?

Malbec

9th April 2012, 18:20

What also disappoints me is that while one would expect nothing more or less of Ecclestone than to want to push on with this charade, I had thought that Todt would be a voice of reason, but apparently not.

I agree. I would like to know whether Todt has offered the Bahrainis some direct advice on how they are handling the situation and how it is likely to pan out behind the scenes. I do not believe at all that Todt and Ecclestone are unaware of how holding a Bahraini GP will produce negative press for all concerned or the situation on the ground.

BDunnell

9th April 2012, 18:39

I agree. I would like to know whether Todt has offered the Bahrainis some direct advice on how they are handling the situation and how it is likely to pan out behind the scenes. I do not believe at all that Todt and Ecclestone are unaware of how holding a Bahraini GP will produce negative press for all concerned or the situation on the ground.

We must also presume that they have agreed security measures with the Bahrainis to be used in the event of trouble. Given the regime's record, what on earth would these be?

SGWilko

9th April 2012, 18:53

What also disappoints me is that while one would expect nothing more or less of Ecclestone than to want to push on with this charade, I had thought that Todt would be a voice of reason, but apparently not.

The good thing that Todt has thus shown, is that he only speaks when he has something worth saying. Until he is in a position to say yay or nay re Bahrain, best to keep schtum if you ask me!

BDunnell

9th April 2012, 19:01

The good thing that Todt has thus shown, is that he only speaks when he has something worth saying. Until he is in a position to say yay or nay re Bahrain, best to keep schtum if you ask me!

This topic goes way beyond any other matters the FIA has had to deal with under his tenure. He has actively sought to allow the race to go ahead. I don't think this is good enough.

Tazio

9th April 2012, 20:43

Interesting. It should never have been put back on the calendar. Exactly, nothing has really changed from last year, it is simply older news. Another example of BE, and FIA tremendous foresight.

ArrowsFA1

10th April 2012, 12:43

Let me get this right. Bernie says that although the teams are contracted to to race, and would be in breach of their contracts, they don't have to go to Bahrain. The teams, although apparently reluctant to go, are waiting for official word from the FIA. The FIA, as yet, are saying nothing.

:dozey:

As Edd Straw says: "Bahrain GP issue is all about buck passing. Everyone denies responsibility and wants someone else to make decision Reflects badly on all F1."
https://twitter.com/#!/eddstrawF1/status/189637017573920769

Mark

10th April 2012, 12:52

I am evil Homer

10th April 2012, 12:59

Well McLaren can't do a thing given their investment profile, so it will have to take Red Bull, Ferrari or Mercedes to say they won't go and force the FIAs hand in this behind the scenes.

BDunnell

10th April 2012, 13:28

Sounds like the debacle with the Zimbabwe cricket tour where the governing body refused to make a decision and it was forced into a corner because the players had to take a stand. It looks like - just like last year - the FIA is waiting for a majority of the teams to say they aren't going before it says "Well the teams didn't want to go so we had no choice but to cancel".

Instead they should just grow a backbone.

Unfortunately, sport governing bodies are almost uniformly incompetent and/or corrupt. This is another example. Where is the condemnation? One British MP, a motorsport enthusiast, has expressed a view against the race happening. It should be deemed a major scandal, just as the Zimbabwe cricket tour was. Another sign of F1's poor image?

BDunnell

10th April 2012, 13:28

Well McLaren can't do a thing given their investment profile, so it will have to take Red Bull, Ferrari or Mercedes to say they won't go and force the FIAs hand in this behind the scenes.

It would also be good if a driver were to say they won't go. Where are you, Mark Webber? You're generally a man of principle.

ArrowsFA1

10th April 2012, 16:57

This situation is similar to that facing the sport as the 1985 South African GP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_South_African_Grand_Prix) came around. Most were against the race happening, but it was only after the event that the FIA announced that F1 would not return.

Ligier and Renault did not take part, and some sponsors withdrew their logos from the cars, but the race went ahead.

Dave B

10th April 2012, 18:24

So now people like us are guilty of "scaremongering", eh?

Bahrain Grand Prix chairman Zayed Al Zayani has blamed 'armchair observers' and 'scaremongering extremists' for creating alarm over the Sakhir event, which is due to go ahead on 22 April.

...

"What has been happening is that armchair observers - who have not been sufficiently interested or committed to investigate the situation for themselves - have been driving this debate, at the expense of those neutral parties who have taken the trouble to investigate the situation at first hand," said Al Zayani.

Source & full story: Bahrain chairman Zayed Al Zayani says 'scaremongering extremists' are the cause for alarm over the Sakhir event - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98693)

I think some of the people killed for peacefully protesting may have "investigated the situation at first hand", but what would I know? :s

BDunnell

10th April 2012, 18:31

I like the fact that, by that definition, I am an 'extremist' while a regime that kills those making legitimate protests and denies medical treatment to the wounded is a voice of moderation. Such statements are all the more reason for F1 to steer well clear.

ArrowsFA1

10th April 2012, 21:48

Time for the FIA to call time on this years Bahrain GP.

http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/04/10/bahrain-decision-down-to-fia-not-teams-says-fota/

http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/04/10/lotus-f1-says-bahrain-used-confidential-report/

https://twitter.com/Damien__Smith/statuses/189793565298262017

Somebody

10th April 2012, 23:32

And no, this isn't similar to China. While China is not a bright beacon of respect for human rights, it is not killing its citizens in broad daylight for protesting in the streets. The last time it did that was in 1989, and I think it would have been terrible if F1 had gone to China after the Tiananmen square protests and pretended that "F1 shouldn't mix with politics".
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Flag_of_Tibet.svg/400px-Flag_of_Tibet.svg.png

Tazio

11th April 2012, 06:18

Time for the FIA to call time on this years Bahrain GP.

Bahrain decision down to FIA not teams, says FOTA | Adam Cooper's F1 Blog (http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/04/10/bahrain-decision-down-to-fia-not-teams-says-fota/)

Lotus F1 says Bahrain used confidential report | Adam Cooper's F1 Blog (http://adamcooperf1.com/2012/04/10/lotus-f1-says-bahrain-used-confidential-report/)

https://twitter.com/Damien__Smith/statuses/189793565298262017

Formula One Teams' Association says that decision over Bahrain GP is down to FIA - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98696)

This Autosport article doesn't really add much to ArrowsFA1's links.
It does contain the most cavalier comment I've read in regard to last year’s cancellation which I must have missed at the time.

Last year, Bahrain’s circuit boss Zayed Alzayani criticised teams for being 'temperamental' in forcing the cancellation of the 2011 race.
:confused:

Mark

11th April 2012, 09:26

I don't think it's too strong to say that shame will be brought upon F1 and the teams should this race go ahead.

ArrowsFA1

11th April 2012, 11:23

A number of Formula 1 teams expect the Bahrain Grand Prix to be called off amid security concerns caused by civil unrest, BBC Sport has learned.
BBC Sport - F1 teams expect Bahrain Grand Prix to be called off (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17676140)

Still nothing from the FIA :rolleyes:

Daika

11th April 2012, 11:47

They couldn`t have thought about this when they made the calender/ grand prix line up for 2012? Idiots in command, all about the $€£. If the choice was Bahrain or Spa i predict Bernie would choose Bahrain. They don`t care about safety off track/riots.

BDunnell

11th April 2012, 14:23

BBC Sport - F1 teams expect Bahrain Grand Prix to be called off (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17676140)

Still nothing from the FIA :rolleyes:

And, let's face it, just whispers emanating from the teams too, together with nothing from even the more outspoken drivers. It all casts the sport in an uncaring, money-grubbing, indecisive, amoral light.

wedge

11th April 2012, 15:14

Let's just get rid of this boring track off the calendar and be done with it.

Even without snazzy architecture its ten times better than Abu Dhabi.

11th April 2012, 15:16

I also think so...

Malbec

11th April 2012, 15:17

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3c/Flag_of_Tibet.svg/400px-Flag_of_Tibet.svg.png

The differences with China are massive.

Firstly the Chinese are not using the Shanghai GP to either excuse what is going in Tibet nor to proclaim that the situation there is fine because the race is going on.

Secondly the Chinese government is not involved in the Shanghai GP, it is subsidised by the local city council. In order for the Chinese government to have the same involvement in their GP as the Bahrainis are, we would have to have senior members of the Politburo organising the race.

Thirdly the problems in China do not involve between 10-25% of the population actively rioting against the government.

That is not to excuse what is going on in Tibet at all, and I would certainly be happier if there was no Chinese GP for that reason, however where do we draw the line?

Do we allow countries that have the death penalty even for crimes committed by children? In which case lets take of the US from the calendar. How about countries that are more than happy to abduct foreigners and send them for torture? If thats not acceptable cancel Silverstone now. Most of the countries races are held in (if not all of them) have some dodgy history.

I would say though that holding a race in a country where the race is seen both by the government and protestors as being an intrinsic part of the political landscape there, where about a quarter of the population is actively involved in protests and riots, where torture and killing by state security is par for the course, where doctors and nurses can face the death penalty for treating injured protestors is simply not on and is way beyond any line you can possibly draw in the sand.

BDunnell

11th April 2012, 15:35

The differences with China are massive.

Firstly the Chinese are not using the Shanghai GP to either excuse what is going in Tibet nor to proclaim that the situation there is fine because the race is going on.

Secondly the Chinese government is not involved in the Shanghai GP, it is subsidised by the local city council. In order for the Chinese government to have the same involvement in their GP as the Bahrainis are, we would have to have senior members of the Politburo organising the race.

Thirdly the problems in China do not involve between 10-25% of the population actively rioting against the government.

That is not to excuse what is going on in Tibet at all, and I would certainly be happier if there was no Chinese GP for that reason, however where do we draw the line?

Do we allow countries that have the death penalty even for crimes committed by children? In which case lets take of the US from the calendar. How about countries that are more than happy to abduct foreigners and send them for torture? If thats not acceptable cancel Silverstone now. Most of the countries races are held in (if not all of them) have some dodgy history.

I would say though that holding a race in a country where the race is seen both by the government and protestors as being an intrinsic part of the political landscape there, where about a quarter of the population is actively involved in protests and riots, where torture and killing by state security is par for the course, where doctors and nurses can face the death penalty for treating injured protestors is simply not on and is way beyond any line you can possibly draw in the sand.

You sum up my views exactly — and, I would hope, those of any other reasonable person.

schmenke

11th April 2012, 16:27

And, let's face it, just whispers emanating from the teams too, together with nothing from even the more outspoken drivers.....

You likely won’t hear much from the drivers who must be careful what they say so as not to upset their sponsors :mark: .

schmenke

11th April 2012, 16:30

...Firstly the Chinese are not using the Shanghai GP to either excuse what is going in Tibet ......

...That is not to excuse what is going on in Tibet ....

What is currently going on in Tibet that is so troubling?

Malbec

11th April 2012, 18:52

What is currently going on in Tibet that is so troubling?

Probably not much right now, but its difficult to deny that there is state sanctioned persecution of ethnic Tibetans there and of non-Han around the rest of China.

Incidentally reading some of the bizarre comments made by the Bahraini authorities about the nature of people who comment that the races should be cancelled, I wonder if there is a cultural element involved?

In history there have been plenty of episodes whereby Arabic groups have claimed outrageous things even though the reality is obvious to all, whether its Comical Ali claiming the Americans were withdrawing from Baghdad while M1s roared behind him or the Egyptian government claiming Jerusalem was about to fall as the Egyptian army retreated as fast as it could in '67. In my own practice I've encountered a minority of people of Arab origin who appear to have the idea that if you say it often enough, loud enough then it becomes reality.

Arabs probably know how to filter out this kind of thing and read the subtext but outsiders like us only see it at face value and wonder what on earth they've been smoking recently...

BDunnell

11th April 2012, 19:50

Incidentally reading some of the bizarre comments made by the Bahraini authorities about the nature of people who comment that the races should be cancelled, I wonder if there is a cultural element involved?

In history there have been plenty of episodes whereby Arabic groups have claimed outrageous things even though the reality is obvious to all, whether its Comical Ali claiming the Americans were withdrawing from Baghdad while M1s roared behind him or the Egyptian government claiming Jerusalem was about to fall as the Egyptian army retreated as fast as it could in '67. In my own practice I've encountered a minority of people of Arab origin who appear to have the idea that if you say it often enough, loud enough then it becomes reality.

The same can be said of people of many faiths, nationalities and cultures, I think. But I do feel that there is a difference between different cultures when it comes to the credence given to statements of one sort or another.

ArrowsFA1

11th April 2012, 20:48

And, let's face it, just whispers emanating from the teams too, together with nothing from even the more outspoken drivers. It all casts the sport in an uncaring, money-grubbing, indecisive, amoral light.
True, but ultimately the FIA is empowered to make the decision. It's their championship and their call, and yet not a peep from the FIA President.

Jag_Warrior

11th April 2012, 21:18

The same can be said of people of many faiths, nationalities and cultures, I think. But I do feel that there is a difference between different cultures when it comes to the credence given to statements of one sort or another.

Very true. And yes, it's been true throughout the history of man. Governments or regimes will always try to put a positive spin on whatever may be happening. It's apparently happening in China right now. And it's been happening in North Korea since the communists took power. For that matter, it happened in the United States as recently as 2001-02. ;)

But as far as Bahrain, I would really prefer to see this race go away forever. It puts the sport in a bad light... and it's not even a good circuit to begin with (IMO). At least when F1 was going against the prevailing grain, by racing in South Africa, one could say that Kyalami was a decent circuit. Other than money, I can't see a reason for F1 to waste time on this dog with fleas.

Dave B

11th April 2012, 23:15

m.guardian.co.uk (http://m.guardian.co.uk/ms/p/gnm/op/sV7dL8Poe_l9_ev4Q2pP53Q/view.m?id=15&gid=sport/2012/apr/11/bahrain-grand-prix-fia-ecclestone&cat=sport)

Relax, everybody: Yates of the Yard assures us that everything's fine. Anybody who heard his evidence to the Commons Selection Committee on phone hacking would understand how utterly incompetent and untrustworthy this individual is.

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2012, 09:29

So an advisor to the Bahrain's Ministry of the Interior says 'come on down, it's fine. Nothing to worry about.' :dozey:

Obviously the safety of those going to Bahrain is important and it seems Yates's report reassures people (meaning the FIA) on that front, but the question that the FIA has failed to address, let alone answer, is should F1 go to Bahrain?

Dave B

12th April 2012, 10:26

Bernie has called a meeting this weekend while the teams are in China, where no doubt he'll leave it up to them and fail to show any leadership. Word is that the FIA won't even be represented. I'll be surprised if a decision is made until mid-week, when the teams should be on their way to Bahrain.

Mark

12th April 2012, 10:41

CNR

12th April 2012, 10:54

when bernie was asked if Bahrain would go ahead his reply was
I don't know what do you think to the reporter

SGWilko

12th April 2012, 11:24

when bernie was asked if Bahrain would go ahead his reply was to the reporter

One likes to think the reporter retorted with "that you are a spineless idiot?" ;)

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2012, 11:38

That's a fairly typical Bernie-type response to any kind of question.

Elsewhere he's said "The race is on the calendar. Unless it gets withdrawn by the national sporting authority in the country, we will be there."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98715

The key thing he says for me is "We shouldn't get involved with other people's politics in Formula 1 racing" and I agree. However the likes of Bahrain (along with some other recent additions to the calendar) generally use F1 to promote their country. With the kind of events we've seen in Bahrain in particular in recent times the question then has to be asked should F1 allow itself to be used in this way at this time?

Dave B

12th April 2012, 12:38

Indeed they said on the radio this morning that many team members will be flying out of China on Friday night to arrive in Bahrain on Monday morning.

Everyone concerned needs to know before the end of the Chinese GP if Bahrain is going ahead.
I've heard that many teams have booked flights to Dubai and then onward tickets both to Bahrain and back home, giving them the option of returning to base without having wasted too much time or money.

schmenke

12th April 2012, 17:47

Bernie has called a meeting this weekend while the teams are in China, where no doubt he'll leave it up to them and fail to show any leadership. Word is that the FIA won't even be represented. ...

Because “money talks” the decision will ultimately be decided by the teams’ sponsors who will evaluate the financial loss of not attending. This is why the FIA is reluctant to make the decision on their own.

ioan

12th April 2012, 18:56

...so where is the line drawn??

In Bahrain.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:00

And Bernie wants them all to walk into that snake pit ?

What would you expect from a slippery guy.

Worse part is I don't see the drivers stand up and say NO, we don't want to go there. What are they risking by saying NO? Nothing. Bunch of multimillionaire morons.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:04

They shouldn't go, end of. There are too many issues which won't/can't be resolved. Whatever the result, I will not watch the race.

Same here!
If fans will not watch it then they have no use for it.

I wonder what are the sponsors positions? Are they about to endorse the atrocities that are happening in Bahrain?

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:09

Unfortunately, sport governing bodies are almost uniformly incompetent and/or corrupt. This is another example. Where is the condemnation? One British MP, a motorsport enthusiast, has expressed a view against the race happening. It should be deemed a major scandal, just as the Zimbabwe cricket tour was. Another sign of F1's poor image?

Just a sign of where this world is heading too as long as governing bodies, whichever you want, are left to take the decisions instead of the people.
In fact we should grow a backbone, not the governing bodies.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:15

You likely won’t hear much from the drivers who must be careful what they say so as not to upset their sponsors :mark: .

Cause they are not rich enough yet?
If pocketing 10+ million € per year is not enough than I fear that we already passed the point of no return.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:18

True, but ultimately the FIA is empowered to make the decision. It's their championship and their call, and yet not a peep from the FIA President.

They are all equally guilty. The teams are not less guilty just because the FIA is not doing their part. Same goes for these muppets called drivers.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:21

Because “money talks” the decision will ultimately be decided by the teams’ sponsors who will evaluate the financial loss of not attending. This is why the FIA is reluctant to make the decision on their own.

What about the financial loss if attending?

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2012, 19:22

Just a sign of where this world is heading too as long as governing bodies, whichever you want, are left to take the decisions instead of the people.
In fact we should grow a backbone, not the governing bodies.
It is the FIA World Championship. Teams and drivers are contracted to take part in the FIA World Championship. It is the FIA's responsibility to take this decision.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:23

Valuable points should their opponents not follow suit I would imagine. Its the teams that need to take the plunge not the drivers IMO.

Points vs Human rights! In F1 points wins! If the race goes ahead don't expect to see me around here anymore. people who live for points do not deserve my attention, not even 2 hours every 2nd week.

ioan

12th April 2012, 19:24

It is the FIA World Championship. Teams and drivers are contracted to take part in the FIA World Championship. It is the FIA's responsibility to take this decision.

I am talking about morals and having a spine, you are talking about money. BIG difference!

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2012, 19:39

I am talking about morals and having a spine, you are talking about money. BIG difference!
I am talking about responsibility.

In an ideal world the teams and drivers would be free to speak their minds based on the facts they know, but they're not. Contractural and commercial realities cannot be ignored and the implications for a team or driver (for example) boycotting the race themselves would have serious implications which cannot be ignored either.

The responsibility for making this decision rests with the FIA, and yet the FIA have been conspicuously silent. As the governing body of motorsport worldwide that is simply not good enough.

schmenke

12th April 2012, 20:06

What about the financial loss if attending?

That is what they have to evaluate. Either way there is a risk of a loss of revenue. I can only assume a financial risk assessment is performed and forms one of the bases for the decision.

ioan

12th April 2012, 20:20

I am talking about responsibility.

In an ideal world the teams and drivers would be free to speak their minds based on the facts they know, but they're not. Contractural and commercial realities cannot be ignored and the implications for a team or driver (for example) boycotting the race themselves would have serious implications which cannot be ignored either.

The responsibility for making this decision rests with the FIA, and yet the FIA have been conspicuously silent. As the governing body of motorsport worldwide that is simply not good enough.

In the end your definition of responsibility boils down to money and money alone. And if they invoke force majeure no one is even responsible financially.

As for the moral responsibility in this world, there is one thing I ma sure about, it is not going to be found in F1.

Bagwan

12th April 2012, 21:37

The best reason that I see to not go , is the fact that everyone in the country seems to want them to go .

Both the government and the government protestors want the GP circus to come to town for exactly the same reason .
They want to show the world thier own versions of the truth .

That's why F1 should stay away , lest the circus become a mere pawn in the Arab spring game .

Witness the small amount of press about the upcoming Chinese race because of the furor about travel plans for next week .

And , given that the protestors actually want the F1 guys to come to town , it kinda plays into the scene seeming a little serene for a short time , until Elvis enters the building .
"It was quiet........too quiet ."
You've all seen the film .

ArrowsFA1

12th April 2012, 21:55

In the end your definition of responsibility boils down to money and money alone.
Money, of course, plays its part but in the end it boils down to an absence of leadership from the FIA.

That's why F1 should stay away , lest the circus become a mere pawn in the Arab spring game .
And yet Bernie's view, or one of them, is that F1 should go because "We shouldn't get involved with other people's politics in Formula 1 racing" :crazy:

BDunnell

12th April 2012, 22:00

Just a sign of where this world is heading too as long as governing bodies, whichever you want, are left to take the decisions instead of the people.
In fact we should grow a backbone, not the governing bodies.

I must confess I don't know what you mean, ioan. What influence do you or I have over the FIA, or any other sporting body?

ioan

12th April 2012, 23:45

I must confess I don't know what you mean, ioan. What influence do you or I have over the FIA, or any other sporting body?

That's why I used 'governing' body and not sporting body.
Anyway the point is that it is our world and we have to make sure that some spineless bureaucrats are not spoiling it, be it our beloved sports or our financial future.

F1 only exists as long as there are fans, the same for governments, they only stand as long as people elect them.
In the end whatever happens with the Bahrain is everyone's (FIA, Bernie, Teams and drivers) responsibility, thus I disagree with Arrows pointing only towards the FIA and I am disgusted by the gutless drivers who live their life for championship points.

I'm going to visit every team and driver homepage and let them know that this one fan is disgusted with their lack of moral stance in this affair.
You guys might want to do something along those lines also.

Dave B

13th April 2012, 00:04

It would also be good if a driver were to say they won't go. Where are you, Mark Webber? You're generally a man of principle. You rang, m'lord? :)

Mark Webber stands alone as voice of reason on Bahrain Grand Prix | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/12/mark-webber-bahrain-grand-prix-china?mobile-redirect=false)

CNR

13th April 2012, 01:59

Mark Webber breaks F1 drivers' silence over Bahrain Grand Prix | Metro.co.uk (http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/895988-mark-webber-breaks-f1-drivers-silence-over-bahrain-grand-prix)

‘It has been a little quieter, but this is Mark Webber sitting here - I have as much information as anyone else.

‘If we had a choice would we go? I want to race. That is what I would like to go there and do. But saying that you cannot ignore the fact that all of us, in the backs of our minds, want it to go down smoothly and don’t want it to be involved in the unrest.’

Read more: Mark Webber breaks F1 drivers' silence over Bahrain Grand Prix | Metro.co.uk (http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/895988-mark-webber-breaks-f1-drivers-silence-over-bahrain-grand-prix#ixzz1rsElJmcu)

wedge

13th April 2012, 02:07

I'm surprised nobody has yet to have a pop at JYS:

"I'd be disappointed if F1 allowed itself to be threatened in such a way," three-time world champion Stewart said.

"The repercussions of following any bully-boy tactics and not going could last for a long time."

"I think this has been taken rather largely out of context," agreed Stewart, 72.

"It's negative for the sport in general to cancel an event. And where would it end then - the Olympics, the World Cup?

"Formula 1 is worth a lot of money to the country and is like any other sport, it can bring people together.

"When all the trouble was going on in Northern Ireland we still had rugby and football matches going on."

BBC Sport - Sir Jackie Stewart in favour of Bahrain Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17697011)

Dave B

13th April 2012, 06:48

Wow. The FIA believe that nothing's wrong and that the race is to go ahead as planned. I cannot think that this will end well.

FIA confirms Bahrain « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/12/fia-confirms-bahrain/)

Dave B

13th April 2012, 07:01

More from Joe Saward on the subject:

On the Bahrain GP « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/on-the-bahrain-gp/)

A worthwhile read, imho.

ArrowsFA1

13th April 2012, 07:45

The race slogan is all about “unif1cation”...
No politics in F1 then :rolleyes:

ioan, I'm not only pointing towards the FIA, but ultimately, as we have now seen, they decide where F1 goes or doesn't go. If it was the FOTA or GPDA F1 World Championship then responsibility would rest elsewhere, but it doesn't.

Mark

13th April 2012, 09:33

Dave B

13th April 2012, 09:40

I'm surprised nobody has yet to have a pop at JYS:

I have the utmost respect for Stewart but on this matter I think he's completely wrong, and allowing his friendship with the royal family to cloud his judgment.

Malbec

13th April 2012, 12:10

And how many people are the Saudi's going to have to kill to stop protests affecting the race? Are the drivers going to be spraying champagne while protestors are beaten outside? Is Martin Brundle going to do is bezzy mates act with the Crown Prince?

You know what? Sometimes before things can improve there has to be a monumental cock up first.

The FIA has been idiotic about this whole farce and there is clearly something very wrong with the whole decision making process here. The scope for something going badly wrong is immense and the FIA could literally be left with blood on its hands. Just as importantly the FIA by taking the decision to go to Bahrain is taking full responsibility for everything that happens there. Just as it took the deaths of many drivers and Senna in particular for safety to be improved maybe its going to take something just as nasty for the governance of the sport to change in relation to how it deals with real life events and oppressive regimes.

What I still don't understand is why is it just SO important for the race to go ahead for the Bahraini government and for the FIA. I fully understand Bernie's stance, he wants the money. The teams will go because life will be made difficult for them if they don't but the FIA and the Bahraini government both risk very public humiliation and criticism, yet we have had little explanation as to why they are willing to risk that.

Malbec

13th April 2012, 12:14

You likely won’t hear much from the drivers who must be careful what they say so as not to upset their sponsors :mark: .

Try this for size from the Thursday press conference:

DRIVERS - Bruno SENNA (Williams), Vitaly PETROV (Caterham), Paul DI RESTA (Force India), Sergio Pérez (Sauber), Fernando ALONSO (Ferrari), Narain KARTHIKEYAN (HRT)

Q. (Steve Dawson - ESPN Star Sports) Does any member of the panel acknowledge that they might have a moral difficulty in going to Bahrain next week?

There is no reply.

This is beyond embarrassing.

Mark

13th April 2012, 12:27

ioan

13th April 2012, 14:36

No politics in F1 then :rolleyes:

ioan, I'm not only pointing towards the FIA, but ultimately, as we have now seen, they decide where F1 goes or doesn't go. If it was the FOTA or GPDA F1 World Championship then responsibility would rest elsewhere, but it doesn't.

C'mon, I work for a big US corporation and travel a LOT to teh middle east, however if I feel uneasy about going to let's say Egypt or Bahrain then I will make that clear and won't go, and all this while knowing that I am far easier to be replaced then Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton, Button and Co.
IMO this just shows that they are a bunch of brainwashed multi-millionaire money grabbers, with not the slightest moral grounds.

They can all tell Bernie to go where the Sun doesn't shine and he can do bugger all about it for various reasons we all know.

BTW, here's Grosjean's experience from last year's GP2 race:

Grosjean : « Des images qui marquent » | Grand Prix de Bahreïn | F1 | RMC sport (http://www.rmcsport.fr/editorial/246389/grosjean-des-images-qui-marquent/)

Sorry for the French. Basically they were sleeping with their clothes on and took their suitcases to the track every day as they were fearing that they might have to flee the country at any moment.
Oh well, I guess they all need a good wake up shake.

ioan

13th April 2012, 14:40

Try this for size from the Thursday press conference:

DRIVERS - Bruno SENNA (Williams), Vitaly PETROV (Caterham), Paul DI RESTA (Force India), Sergio Pérez (Sauber), Fernando ALONSO (Ferrari), Narain KARTHIKEYAN (HRT)

Q. (Steve Dawson - ESPN Star Sports) Does any member of the panel acknowledge that they might have a moral difficulty in going to Bahrain next week?

There is no reply.

This is beyond embarrassing.

Exactly. Are these guys worth our support every 2nd week? No way.

ioan

13th April 2012, 15:34

ioan, I'm not only pointing towards the FIA, but ultimately, as we have now seen, they decide where F1 goes or doesn't go. If it was the FOTA or GPDA F1 World Championship then responsibility would rest elsewhere, but it doesn't.

BTW it seems that the Concorde agreement allows teams to refuse taking part in races for quite a few force majeure reasons, one of them being riots!

Why Bahrain isn't part of Formula 1's safety crusade - AUTOSPORT PLUS (http://plus.autosport.com/premium/feature/4360/why-bahrain-isnt-part-of-formula-1-safety-crusade/)

Malbec

13th April 2012, 15:35

As for the idea of if we don't go to Bahrain then that means we can't go to other countries like China. Then fine; I'd be quite happy with the principle that No Democracy = No Formula 1. There are plenty of places to hold F1 races without going to these countries, and we'd lose, what Bahrain, China and perhaps Abu Dhabi (but maybe not). Where's the loss there?

Democracy is an imperfect indicator for how 'nice' a country is though.

I'd rather be an Abu Dhabi citizen with a high quality of life but poor political rights than an average Indian who has both a poor quality of life and only moderate political rights despite the latter being a fully functioning and long lasting democracy.

Democratic countries like the US torture while the British are happy to send people for torturing as long as they don't do it themselves. Is that acceptable? What about the refusal to do much about appalling poverty in democratic India? Hanging in Japan?

And lets not forget that Bahrain is using interrogation techniques learnt very faithfully from the British while it was still a protectorate only 30 years ago, and have come to Britain for advice in how to beef up security there which is why a former member of the Met police is there heading up internal security. Their entire legal system was established by the British and they came to British legal firms like Norton Rose when they modernised it just a few years ago.

In addition increasing wealth is linked to an increasing demand for democracy which is partly why we're seeing these troubles across the Middle East anyway. F1 is supposed to help increase local wealth by indirect means, therefore arguably you would want to see more races in non-democratic regions with the intention of raising wealth and therefore increasing the push for democracy in those states.

wedge

13th April 2012, 16:18

Try this for size from the Thursday press conference:

DRIVERS - Bruno SENNA (Williams), Vitaly PETROV (Caterham), Paul DI RESTA (Force India), Sergio Pérez (Sauber), Fernando ALONSO (Ferrari), Narain KARTHIKEYAN (HRT)

Q. (Steve Dawson - ESPN Star Sports) Does any member of the panel acknowledge that they might have a moral difficulty in going to Bahrain next week?

There is no reply.

This is beyond embarrassing.

Not really.

F1 is apolitical. It isn't like the Olympics that has a mantra of peace and goodwill.

ArrowsFA1

13th April 2012, 16:54

BTW it seems that the Concorde agreement allows teams to refuse taking part in races for quite a few force majeure reasons, one of them being riots!
ioan, Joe Saward suggests (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/on-the-bahrain-gp/) that there is an argument "that by involving itself in a highly politicised event, the FIA is in breach of its own statutes" (see the full article to explain why).

What's your view of the way the FIA have handled this situation?

Tazio

13th April 2012, 20:31

"
No F1, no F1. ... They killed my son in cold blood," sobbed Ismail's mother, Makyia Ahmed, who said her son had been a volunteer at previous F1 races.

Protesters chanted anti-government slogans and riot police used tear gas and bird shot to clear the crowds. Several people were injured by the bird-shot pellets.
Violence Flares in Bahrain After F1 Gets Go-Ahead - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/violence-bahrain-f1-ahead-16132731)

I'm taking this at face value and it sickens me!

zako85

13th April 2012, 21:23

As for the idea of if we don't go to Bahrain then that means we can't go to other countries like China. Then fine; I'd be quite happy with the principle that No Democracy = No Formula 1.

I don't think you got right what the controversy is about. There are violent clashes going on between protesters and government in this island country right now. If the event is held in Bahrain, where does this stop? Should Damascus be considered for a Formula 1 race next year?

Tazio

13th April 2012, 21:40

If BE thinks it is safe on the streets, I suggest that after Shanghai he grabs JT and take a leisurely stroll through Manama :dozey:

MAX_THRUST

13th April 2012, 21:41

I'm surprised they are going, I won't be surprised if it does not go ahead. Just can't see ths happening.

As for the drivers not standing up for themselves and their beliefs. Standing up for mine has never helped me, just left me with regrets thinking i should have shut and toe'd the line. These drivers are well advised by their management. Evenif they wanna say something they know they just can't. Sad world we live in some times.

Mark

13th April 2012, 21:57

I don't think you got right what the controversy is about. There are violent clashes going on between protesters and government in this island country right now. If the event is held in Bahrain, where does this stop? Should Damascus be considered for a Formula 1 race next year?

I wonder if you've got me wrong on this one

BDunnell

13th April 2012, 23:03

Not really.

F1 is apolitical. It isn't like the Olympics that has a mantra of peace and goodwill.

Most business is apolitical, yet those engaged in said business can express opinions.

BDunnell

13th April 2012, 23:06

That's why I used 'governing' body and not sporting body.
Anyway the point is that it is our world and we have to make sure that some spineless bureaucrats are not spoiling it, be it our beloved sports or our financial future.

F1 only exists as long as there are fans, the same for governments, they only stand as long as people elect them.
In the end whatever happens with the Bahrain is everyone's (FIA, Bernie, Teams and drivers) responsibility, thus I disagree with Arrows pointing only towards the FIA and I am disgusted by the gutless drivers who live their life for championship points.

I'm going to visit every team and driver homepage and let them know that this one fan is disgusted with their lack of moral stance in this affair.
You guys might want to do something along those lines also.

As much as I admire your spirit and have sympathy for your sentiments, it won't do any good. If you want someone to point the finger at rather than the FIA, how about national governments? They have the necessary influence, yet have done sod all to make their views known.

BDunnell

13th April 2012, 23:07

You rang, m'lord? :)

Mark Webber stands alone as voice of reason on Bahrain Grand Prix | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/apr/12/mark-webber-bahrain-grand-prix-china?mobile-redirect=false)

To be honest, Webber's comments are pretty devoid of content, too. But at least he has felt able to say something, I suppose.

BDunnell

13th April 2012, 23:09

You know what? Sometimes before things can improve there has to be a monumental cock up first.

My thoughts too. I would stop short of saying that I hope something happens, of course, but at the back of my mind there is a desire to see those responsible for the fiasco shown up somehow.

BDunnell

13th April 2012, 23:13

I have the utmost respect for Stewart but on this matter I think he's completely wrong, and allowing his friendship with the royal family to cloud his judgment.

Can he cite any examples of F1 being a force for social good in the way he claims, I wonder? Does he believe that F1 staying in South Africa would have helped end apartheid? That's the natural extension of his point of view. I think the argument is meaningless tosh, quite frankly, when applied to F1.

ioan

14th April 2012, 01:00

ioan, Joe Saward suggests (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/13/on-the-bahrain-gp/) that there is an argument "that by involving itself in a highly politicised event, the FIA is in breach of its own statutes" (see the full article to explain why).

What's your view of the way the FIA have handled this situation?

The FIA is doing a horrible job about this, no question about it.

ioan

14th April 2012, 01:02

Should Damascus be considered for a Formula 1 race next year?

The question is if Assad can afford to pay the money Bernie asks for? That's all that matters.

ioan

14th April 2012, 01:03

If BE thinks it is safe on the streets, I suggest that after Shanghai he grabs JT and take a leisurely stroll through Manama :dozey:

I've read somewhere that neither BE nor JT will be in Bahrain next week end.

ioan

14th April 2012, 01:06

As much as I admire your spirit and have sympathy for your sentiments, it won't do any good. If you want someone to point the finger at rather than the FIA, how about national governments? They have the necessary influence, yet have done sod all to make their views known.

National governments are worse than the FIA, especially as they have direct influence over people's lives.

BDunnell

14th April 2012, 01:30

National governments are worse than the FIA, especially as they have direct influence over people's lives.

Of course, but in the case of a Grand Prix the FIA is generally far more central to the matter of whether it goes ahead than is a national government.

wedge

14th April 2012, 02:51

Most business is apolitical, yet those engaged in said business can express opinions.

Years ago Robbie Fowler wore a T-shirt in support of sacked Liverpool dockers which he showed off after he scored a goal. He was disciplined and rightly so.

As Bernie rightly pointed out F1 (and sport) should be politically neutral and shouldn't really be used for a political forum.

ioan

14th April 2012, 09:16

Years ago Robbie Fowler wore a T-shirt in support of sacked Liverpool dockers which he showed off after he scored a goal. He was disciplined and rightly so.

Whatever happened to free speech. :down:

:up: for the guy for having a spine.

:down: for his managers for failing at management and punishing the player who brings home the goods. What a bunch of muppets. :down:

MAX_THRUST

14th April 2012, 13:19

ArrowsFA1

14th April 2012, 13:44

Two ways to look at those comments from Bernie. On the one hand he's right, and if the opposition take the opportunity to highlight the problems in Bahrain peacefully then they will put pressure on the government.

On the other hand, Bernie has already said F1 should not involve itself in politics and yet here he is almost inviting the opposition to use F1 to highlight their cause.

Despite the FIA's statute, and Bernie's view of F1 as being non-political, the decision to race in Bahrain has put the sport slap bang in the middle of politics.

wedge

14th April 2012, 15:55

Surprisingly Damon Hill has changed his tune:

Express.co.uk - Home of the Daily and Sunday Express | Sport | Motorsport (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/314454/Damon-Hill-backing-for-Bahrain)

Whatever happened to free speech. :down:

:up: for the guy for having a spine.

:down: for his managers for failing at management and punishing the player who brings home the goods. What a bunch of muppets. :down:

It's a UEFA statute.

Two ways to look at those comments from Bernie. On the one hand he's right, and if the opposition take the opportunity to highlight the problems in Bahrain peacefully then they will put pressure on the government.

On the other hand, Bernie has already said F1 should not involve itself in politics and yet here he is almost inviting the opposition to use F1 to highlight their cause.

Despite the FIA's statute, and Bernie's view of F1 as being non-political, the decision to race in Bahrain has put the sport slap bang in the middle of politics.

Why the onus on Formula One? Should the sport be used as political tool?

Bahrain international football team are still free to compete. FIFA does not allow government interference and have penalised those countries such as Iran and Iraq and yet does nothing when two Bahrain footballers were found to be detained after attending anti-government protests.

Dave B

14th April 2012, 17:02

Being as impartial as i could be, listening to Bernie talking on the BBC today was interesting...He kept it simple. "If we don't go nothing will be different on Monday after the race, if we go it gives the opposition a chance to speak to the worlds media".

Hate to say it, but that was a smart comment. He is right in some way. Reality is I doubt anything will be different on Monday even if the race goes ahead.
What he said may have made some degree of sense had it not come less than 60 seconds after him saying F1 shouldn't get involved in politics. He's a massive hypocrite, if nothing else.

BDunnell

14th April 2012, 17:38

What he said may have made some degree of sense had it not come less than 60 seconds after him saying F1 shouldn't get involved in politics. He's a massive hypocrite, if nothing else.

And one who is actively detrimental to the public image of the sport. F1 would be better without a hate figure at its helm. This is what Ecclestone — why do we always refer to him as Bernie? — has become.

BDunnell

14th April 2012, 17:39

Bahrain international football team are still free to compete. FIFA does not allow government interference and have penalised those countries such as Iran and Iraq and yet does nothing when two Bahrain footballers were found to be detained after attending anti-government protests.

Is the Bahraini regime using its football team for political ends in the same way as it's using the GP?

That said, FIFA is as much a bastion of good governance as are FOM and the FIA.

BDunnell

14th April 2012, 17:40

Years ago Robbie Fowler wore a T-shirt in support of sacked Liverpool dockers which he showed off after he scored a goal. He was disciplined and rightly so.

As Bernie rightly pointed out F1 (and sport) should be politically neutral and shouldn't really be used for a political forum.

As I said before, saying 'they shouldn't be political' is pointless. Sport is often extremely political, has been for years, and there is nothing anyone can do about this.

ioan

14th April 2012, 19:19

It's a UEFA statute.

I didn't know they rule the world now. Now I am seriously considering emigrating to Mars. :\

ioan

14th April 2012, 19:21

That said, FIFA is as much a bastion of good governance as are FOM and the FIA.

Not many mart guys in any of these two governing bodies.

wedge

15th April 2012, 01:03

As I said before, saying 'they shouldn't be political' is pointless. Sport is often extremely political, has been for years, and there is nothing anyone can do about this.

I wholeheartedly agree but if it was legitimized you'd open a can of worms.

What about McLaren? The Bahrain royal family have shares in the company. What does Ron Dennis make of it all? Why isn't or should there be a campaign to boycott McLaren?

And one who is actively detrimental to the public image of the sport. F1 would be better without a hate figure at its helm. This is what Ecclestone — why do we always refer to him as Bernie? — has become.

To outsiders, yes, he is all to easy a figure of hate. Those within F1 and those who have dealt with him have respect for him.

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 10:38

I wholeheartedly agree but if it was legitimized you'd open a can of worms.

What do you mean 'legitimised'? The fact is that sport is politicised, and you can't avoid it. Wishing it wasn't the case is pointless. And, furthermore, why shouldn't sport and politics mix? Far more important things, such as health and education, are politicised. Why should sport be immune?

What about McLaren? The Bahrain royal family have shares in the company. What does Ron Dennis make of it all? Why isn't or should there be a campaign to boycott McLaren?

A totally different situation. How can one team within a sport be boycotted? And McLaren aren't doing anything to actively seek to promote Bahrain out of this association. The staging of the GP has this as its aim. If McLaren was doing all it's worth to say all was OK in Bahrain, I would agree that they should be castigated, but this hasn't been the case.

To outsiders, yes, he is all to easy a figure of hate. Those within F1 and those who have dealt with him have respect for him.

Not least because he has made a lot of them very rich.

What do we outsiders have to go on? Therefore, we cannot be blamed for having a jaundiced view of him, and he is also a public figurehead, after all. People who worked with George W. Bush have often commented that he was a different person in private, but this does not and cannot stop us having a contrary — and, based on what we see, totally legitimate — view of our own.

Garry Walker

15th April 2012, 11:04

There are sometimes some good bits to enjoy, just few and far between. Anyway I will most probably give up on watching the circus in 5 days time.

Because of Bahrain? Why would anyone do that?

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 11:08

Because of Bahrain? Why would anyone do that?

Because they may feel strongly enough about the issue. I don't go as far as ioan in terms of never wanting to watch the sport again if the race goes ahead, but I certainly won't watch Bahrain, and I applaud his moral stance against the whole charade.

Dave B

15th April 2012, 11:09

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 11:11

F1boat

15th April 2012, 11:31

I will watch the race and pray for results without bloodshed, for the people or or the F1 drivers and teams. But I will not boycott it. This is my favorite sport :)

ioan

15th April 2012, 11:35

Because of Bahrain? Why would anyone do that?

I won't support people who are devoid of any moral grounds and only live for the money and celebrity that they get from their millionaire jobs.

Garry Walker

15th April 2012, 11:36

I won't support people who are devoid of any moral grounds and only live for the money and celebrity that they get from their millionaire jobs.

Are you referring to the drivers here?

ioan

15th April 2012, 11:41

Are you referring to the drivers here?

Yes.
The teams, the FIA and mophead are in it for the money and the power and are despicable anyway. The drivers could have taken a serious stance on this issue on their own however they didn't move a finger to do so, which is a sign of what's in their lil' heads.

Garry Walker

15th April 2012, 11:43

Yes.
The teams, the FIA and mophead are in it for the money and the power and are despicable anyway. The drivers could have taken a serious stance on this issue on their own however they didn't move a finger to do so, which is a sign of what's in their lil' heads.

And achieved what ? Be in breach of their contracts, stand to lose millions of dollars in salary and possible penalties and ruin their careers for what?

ioan

15th April 2012, 11:52

And achieved what ? Be in breach of their contracts, stand to lose millions of dollars in salary and possible penalties and ruin their careers for what?

They stand to lose nothing. Without them there is no F1 and everything would come to a halt. If they don't race who will race? And who will watch it if they don't race?
Not to mention that there are clauses in the Concorde agreement that are specific to cases of riots and social unrest.

Back in the day Lauda managed to organize a drivers strike against the crappy contractual conditions of the drivers,and the F1 bosses were all lost and agreed on their terms.
But hey, that was back in the days when people used to talk to their neighbors, when work colleagues used to be friends, not only people sharing the same company name and the list goes on.

Even you failed to see that the human being is still the most important piece of the society even in today's corporatist world, the problem is only that people do not realize it anymore and give in to the pressure from various management levels.
Contracts are worth nothing as long as you live in a world devoid of substance. And no, money isn't the substance I am talking about.

ioan

15th April 2012, 12:13

Ben you can watch the GT1 race(s) in Belgium next week end:

FIA GT1 World Championship - Official Site (http://gt1world.com/)

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 12:19

They stand to lose nothing. Without them there is no F1 and everything would come to a halt. If they don't race who will race? And who will watch it if they don't race?
Not to mention that there are clauses in the Concorde agreement that are specific to cases of riots and social unrest.

Back in the day Lauda managed to organize a drivers strike against the crappy contractual conditions of the drivers,and the F1 bosses were all lost and agreed on their terms.
But hey, that was back in the days when people used to talk to their neighbors, when work colleagues used to be friends, not only people sharing the same company name and the list goes on.

Even you failed to see that the human being is still the most important piece of the society even in today's corporatist world, the problem is only that people do not realize it anymore and give in to the pressure from various management levels.
Contracts are worth nothing as long as you live in a world devoid of substance. And no, money isn't the substance I am talking about.

You make the point very powerfully, I must say.

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 12:19

Ben you can watch the GT1 race(s) in Belgium next week end:

FIA GT1 World Championship - Official Site (http://gt1world.com/)

I have friends visiting next weekend, and World Championship snooker to watch!

F1boat

15th April 2012, 12:23

Ben you can watch the GT1 race(s) in Belgium next week end:

FIA GT1 World Championship - Official Site (http://gt1world.com/)

Ah, yes. Beautiful cars :)

ioan

15th April 2012, 12:27

You make the point very powerfully, I must say.

For whatever reason, I am very sensitive about social issues. Most probably my long stay in France put many things in perspective and this is the result.

Anyway, there is no real reason for the drivers not to boycott the race other than selfishness. i will not make do with it.

A few years ago when F1 wasn't so obviously going down the wrong path I would have skipped only this race, however most of their recent decisions were a big turn off for me to the point where I don't bother anymore to watch the free practice sessions, and only tune in for Q3 and race. Having all races on Sunday early afternoon is another reason not to bother anymore, I'll rather use the time to enjoy the nature with my beloved ones.

The Bahrain 2012 issue happens to be the straw that broke the donkey's back, a serious one nonetheless.

ioan

15th April 2012, 12:31

Ah, yes. Beautiful cars :)

Yep, good looking cars and also good racing.
Not same technical level as F1 but for that I have this:

FIA World Endurance Championship - The Official Website (http://www.fiawec.com/#3)

The Spa 6 hours coming up on the 5th May week end.

There's motorsport life outside of F1.

ioan

15th April 2012, 12:50

I have friends visiting next weekend, and World Championship snooker to watch!

Sounds like a great week end!

F1boat

15th April 2012, 13:11

Yep, good looking cars and also good racing.
Not same technical level as F1 but for that I have this:

FIA World Endurance Championship - The Official Website (http://www.fiawec.com/#3)

The Spa 6 hours coming up on the 5th May week end.

There's motorsport life outside of F1.

WEC is a bit boring for me, but there are some fun series outside F1, like the sexy GT1 and, of course, the magnificent British Touring Cars Championship. :)

Dave B

15th April 2012, 13:29

I've read somewhere that neither BE nor JT will be in Bahrain next week end.

Sky asked Ecclestone if he's be in Bahrain and he replied, "what a stupid question". He did not, however, answer it.

dj_bytedisaster

15th April 2012, 13:30

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 13:37

I can't understand the discussion about the Bahrain race. Not that I condone dictatorship or opression of dissidents, I was born and raised in East Germany, but did someone notice we just finished a race in China? Last time I checked, China was a communistical dictatorship that routinely imprisons dissidents and even sentences them to death, so if anything, the China race should never have hapened. F1 is a commercial endeavour and not a political platform. Talking about cancelling Bahrain, while just having competed on the soil of one of the worlds most brutal opressor regimes sounds a wee bit hypocritical.

There are many very eloquent arguments in this thread, if you look back, as to why China is a different case, and why sport of any type is a political matter.

Dave B

15th April 2012, 13:47

I can't understand the discussion about the Bahrain race. Not that I condone dictatorship or opression of dissidents, I was born and raised in East Germany, but did someone notice we just finished a race in China? Last time I checked, China was a communistical dictatorship that routinely imprisons dissidents and even sentences them to death, so if anything, the China race should never have hapened. F1 is a commercial endeavour and not a political platform. Talking about cancelling Bahrain, while just having competed on the soil of one of the worlds most brutal opressor regimes sounds a wee bit hypocritical.
Where would you draw the line, though? The USA run an illegal detention and torture camp, which would be roundly condemned if any other country had a similar operation. The UK collaborated with them in sending people for torture. Should Austin and Silverstone lose their races too?

F1boat

15th April 2012, 14:48

Where would you draw the line, though? The USA run an illegal detention and torture camp, which would be roundly condemned if any other country had a similar operation. The UK collaborated with them in sending people for torture. Should Austin and Silverstone lose their races too?

The trouble is Bahrain is that people might be hurt, including team members.

Dave B

15th April 2012, 14:52

The trouble is Bahrain is that people might be hurt, including team members.
Exactly, which is one of the reasons I believe it's a totally different kettle of fish to China.

ShiftingGears

15th April 2012, 15:30

The trouble is Bahrain is that people might be hurt, including team members.

By the same logic are you saying F1 should boycott Interlagos too?

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 15:40

By the same logic are you saying F1 should boycott Interlagos too?

Well, people 'might be hurt' at any GP venue. The reason why they might be hurt at Bahrain is the problem, surely?

N4D13

15th April 2012, 15:42

By the same logic are you saying F1 should boycott Interlagos too?
I haven't heard about unrest on the streets of Brazil, nor its police attacking and sometimes killing protesters and even bystanders. Neither have I heard about protesters calling for the Brazilian GP to be called off.

Brazil is certainly not the safest place to go to, but Bahrain is way, way worse - it's like the difference between spraying your hand with hot water or putting your hand into a pot full of boiling water.

wedge

15th April 2012, 16:22

So if Bahrain goes ahead as planned will people be watching it or boycotting it? Personally I'd love to take some sort of moral high ground and refuse to watch, but dagnammit I love racing and I'd watch two drops of rain trickling down a window pane, so I'll be tuning in and hoping that everything passes off without incident. Does that make me a hypocrite? :s

After accusing Bernie of being one, then yes.

But I'm not castigating you for it. We are selfish beings to some extent which compromises our morals.

Anyway, there is no real reason for the drivers not to boycott the race other than selfishness. i will not make do with it.

It is fascinating that all the all the media attention on F1 & Bernie, and well Bernie is an easy to figure to poke at.

There is a celebrity golf tournament in Bahrain that features names such as Joe Montana, Colin Montgomerie and Tim Henman and very little in the way of criticism.

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 16:30

It is fascinating that all the all the media attention on F1 & Bernie, and well Bernie is an easy to figure to poke at.

There is a celebrity golf tournament in Bahrain that features names such as Joe Montana, Colin Montgomerie and Tim Henman and very little in the way of criticism.

Is the golf tournament being cited by the Bahraini regime as a means of unifying the country, just as the F1 is? Is it being used by protesters as a means of highlighting their grievances, just as the F1 is?

steveaki13

15th April 2012, 16:35

So if Bahrain goes ahead as planned will people be watching it or boycotting it? Personally I'd love to take some sort of moral high ground and refuse to watch, but dagnammit I love racing and I'd watch two drops of rain trickling down a window pane, so I'll be tuning in and hoping that everything passes off without incident. Does that make me a hypocrite? :s

I don't agree with F1 going to Bahrain and what Bahrain is doing to its people however I would watch the race if I wasn't going out next Sunday.

Sky asked Ecclestone if he's be in Bahrain and he replied, "what a stupid question". He did not, however, answer it.

His answer was probably "What a stupid Question, of course Im not. Do you think I would put myself in danger"

wedge

15th April 2012, 16:38

Is the golf tournament being cited by the Bahraini regime as a means of unifying the country, just as the F1 is? Is it being used by protesters as a means of highlighting their grievances, just as the F1 is?

No but the participants are just as guilty for having loose morals as BCE and the teams.

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 16:47

No but the participants are just as guilty for having loose morals as BCE and the teams.

Possibly, but the very staging of the event is what's under discussion here. As you acknowledge with your answer of 'no', this is a very different case indeed.

wedge

15th April 2012, 17:05

Possibly, but the very staging of the event is what's under discussion here. As you acknowledge with your answer of 'no', this is a very different case indeed.

No, I don't think it is a different case. If other sports are comfortable then why not F1?

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 17:13

No, I don't think it is a different case. If other sports are comfortable then why not F1?

I'm not sure why this needs repeating over and over — because the GP is being used, very explicitly, by the regime to try and make a political point, while the protesters have also made it central to their efforts at opposing the regime. None of these things can be said of a golf tournament or anything else. Not only can they be said of the GP, but they render it considerably riskier than is the golf for all involved.

jens

15th April 2012, 17:49

The question about where to draw the line (examples of Interlagos and China), is interesting. But I don't think a major sports event is well-advised to take place in an area, where there is almost a war going on.

F1boat

15th April 2012, 17:55

ArrowsFA1

15th April 2012, 18:10

Back in the day Lauda managed to organize a drivers strike against the crappy contractual conditions of the drivers,and the F1 bosses were all lost and agreed on their terms.
South Africa 1982 :) Those "crappy conditions" were being imposed by FISA, and yes a truce was declared allowing the race to go ahead. However, immediately after the race FISA suspended the drivers licenses and the striking drivers were ultimately fined and received a one race suspended ban so this was not quite an example of better times.

BDunnell

15th April 2012, 18:13

South Africa 1982 :) Those "crappy conditions" were being imposed by FISA, and yes a truce was declared allowing the race to go ahead. However, immediately after the race FISA suspended the drivers licenses and the striking drivers were ultimately fined and received a one race suspended ban so this was not quite an example of better times.

Not least because Balestre was at best a rather unstable character, best described as 'choleric' by Nigel Roebuck.

fandango

15th April 2012, 18:34

donKey jote

15th April 2012, 19:23

I'll be watching it if it takes place and I have nothing better to do. I'll see if I can spot some first cousins of mine in the stands or a niece among the pit babes :vader:
Scruples, what scruples? :dozey:

Malbec

15th April 2012, 22:56

I haven't heard about unrest on the streets of Brazil, nor its police attacking and sometimes killing protesters and even bystanders.

Also, the violence in Brazil is there regardless of whether the race is there or not.

In Bahrain, the race is going to cause violence in itself both with the government clamping down on security and the protestors using the date as a target for protests. I don't think you can say that of any other race.

wedge

15th April 2012, 23:47

So, I haven't decided yet if I'm going to watch the race next week. Principles are important to me, so if I think the race shouldn't go ahead then I won't watch it. The idea expressed by others in this thread of "yeah, but I like F1 so I'll watch it even if I don't agree with it taking place" is childish consumerism. Make a stand people, for Chrissake!

The problem for me is that I don't know who to believe. Is it better that the race take place, or not? Somehow, I doubt if future generations of Bahrainis will care one way or another. And while I lean towards thinking that the race should be boycotted if it's presented as some kind of symbol that things are hunky dory in the country, on the other hand its existence and the debate surrounding it draw attention to Bahrain, attention that it simply wouldn't get if the race had been cancelled months ago.

I'm less bothered about the race and more voyeurism, rubber-necking, perhaps akin to watching a disturbing film.

I'm intrigued over the drama of merging world politics with F1, how the media will cover the race.

I never saw the 2005 USGP live but judging by the review DVD it looked dramatic seeing the events unfold. My only hope is that there are drivers who have strong political beliefs and the same convictions and replicate those actions.

N4D13

16th April 2012, 00:14

BDunnell

16th April 2012, 00:21

I'm intrigued over the drama of merging world politics with F1, how the media will cover the race.

I could do without it, personally. That's a bit like saying that one would wish a war to happen because in the future it will be 'historically interesting'.

wedge

16th April 2012, 00:59

I could do without it, personally. That's a bit like saying that one would wish a war to happen because in the future it will be 'historically interesting'.

It is what it is and I certainly never wished for it. I'm a driver who genuinely avoids rubber necking but this will be one car crash I'm intrigued to take a peek at.

gloomyDAY

16th April 2012, 07:18

No thanks. I'm not watching this GP!

Not because I find it morally wrong, but because the same reason I skip Valencia: boring!

EuroTroll

16th April 2012, 08:32

While I'm very sympathetic to the Bahraini protesters and their call for democracy, I will watch the race. Because:
- I love F1 and don't want to miss a single race,
- My not watching it wouldn't do an ounce of good to anyone,
- I can't deny a certain morbid fascination... What will happen?

Dave B

16th April 2012, 09:28

Can't verify this but it's reportedly near the circuit:

Photo of protesters burning down the biggest #F1 #BahrainGP billboard on the main highway #RaceofDisgrace #Bahrain http://p.twimg.com/AqirMgbCAAEbbd6.jpg

Dave B

16th April 2012, 09:42

Marca has reported that a bomb has been found in the circuit: Descubierta una bomba en el circuito de Bahrain - Fórmula 1 - AS.com (http://www.as.com/motor/articulo/descubierta-bomba-circuito-bahrain/20120415dasdaimot_4/Tes) . It must be quite reassuring for the teams.

Another, more local, source with the same story:

Explosives in the Vicinity of Formula 1 Circuit (http://bhmirror.no-ip.org/article.php?id=3905&cid=71&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Bahrain&utm_term=Feb14&utm_source=BahrainMirror)

:s

ShiftingGears

16th April 2012, 11:08

Well, people 'might be hurt' at any GP venue. The reason why they might be hurt at Bahrain is the problem, surely?

Oh I agree. But I think it's important for people to know, or articulate, why they think the Bahrain Grand Prix should not go ahead while China and Brazil should, to counter views of people such as Jackie Stewart.

In Bahrain, the race is going to cause violence in itself both with the government clamping down on security and the protestors using the date as a target for protests. I don't think you can say that of any other race.

This is, I think, the most articulate explanation about the Bahrain problem. The FIA are playing with fire, hoping they won't burn the house down.

While I'm very sympathetic to the Bahraini protesters and their call for democracy, I will watch the race. Because:
- I love F1 and don't want to miss a single race,
- My not watching it wouldn't do an ounce of good to anyone,
- I can't deny a certain morbid fascination... What will happen?

Indeed.

52Paddy

16th April 2012, 12:24

I sincerely hope everybody in the F1 circus is free from harm next weekend. The FIA will have more to worry about that figures if $hit goes down. It's their responsibility to vet out the venue and deem it safe (which they did), so they better not have made (what seems like) a blatantly obvious mistake.

Dave B

16th April 2012, 12:49

Bagwan

16th April 2012, 15:24

With a bomb found near the circuit , and the big billboard burnt , I think there's still time to cancel things .
There's 5 days before the declared 3 days of rage .

Those thinking of not watching may not have to make that difficult decision .

ArrowsFA1

16th April 2012, 15:33

Now that the FIA have given the race the go-ahead I don't see them reversing their decision at this late stage.

Their handling of the situation has been bad enough.

Bagwan

16th April 2012, 17:19

We'll see in the next day or two , but they are the most vulnerable right now , on the load-in .

I expect we'll see heavily armed convoys , bringing the equipment to the track .
And , a lot more tear gas on film , now that the Chinese race is in the can .
The big stage has officially been erected .
The characters have been introduced .
This is no comedy .

Tazio

16th April 2012, 18:36

Not that it makes any difference to me, because F1 is my sanctuary away from US sports, but for those who want F1 to have more exposure in the U.S. it has become a reality. This decision is all over the US internet news sources. I may well boycott it.

schmenke

16th April 2012, 18:48

Meh, I don’t really mind if I don’t watch it. I’ll always have paint to watch dry :p :

Dave B

16th April 2012, 19:14

ioan

17th April 2012, 19:35

I'm less bothered about the race and more voyeurism, rubber-necking, perhaps akin to watching a disturbing film.

I'm intrigued over the drama of merging world politics with F1, how the media will cover the race.

I never saw the 2005 USGP live but judging by the review DVD it looked dramatic seeing the events unfold. My only hope is that there are drivers who have strong political beliefs and the same convictions and replicate those actions.

There was nothing dramatic about the 2005 US GP race.

ioan

17th April 2012, 19:39

Another, more local, source with the same story:

Explosives in the Vicinity of Formula 1 Circuit (http://bhmirror.no-ip.org/article.php?id=3905&cid=71&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Bahrain&utm_term=Feb14&utm_source=BahrainMirror)

:s

I'm rather sure there will be no trace of Bernie in Bahrain this coming week end.

ioan

17th April 2012, 19:42

Anyone else following @ianparkesf1 ? Some worrying tweets from today when he went to a village about 10km from the capital.

In this pic you can see the locals with petrol bombs in hand ready for their fight with the police http://p.twimg.com/AqnIkcSCQAAFHmD.jpg

Here's a cordon of about 14 police cars and 50 policemen blocking one road out of Salmabad. http://p.twimg.com/AqnGYhXCQAA9zdS.jpg

You get the picture... :s

What are you talking about?! There is nothing bad there, everything is calm and those policemen are there just to show off their competences.
As for those guys with cocktails, that might be against some Islamic rules, but that's fine with BE and the FIA plus the driving muppets.

ioan

17th April 2012, 19:45

I'll be watching. What would I achieve by not watching, apart from cutting off my nose to spite my face? Assuming it goes ahead (and I'm increasingly doubtful that it will) there'll be a motor race to watch, which will hopefully be entertaining. I'm not counted on any viewing figures, nobody loses money by me not watching, nobody in Bahrain will know or care whether I'm watching, and I doubt that any boycott will be widespread enough to make any meaningful difference.

None of us alone can make a difference, and it looks like the human sense of unity died a quick death.

Robinho

17th April 2012, 20:03

still time for it to be cancelled, I still expect that to happen, the teams will be there, and will likely have to force the FIA/Bernies hand, as the Bahrainis won't cancel, as if they cancel 2 years in a row they lose the race

gloomyDAY

17th April 2012, 20:19

http://themoealibeirutvibes.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/latuf-bahrain.gif

Dave B

17th April 2012, 20:37

None of us alone can make a difference, and it looks like the human sense of unity died a quick death.

So I assume you'll be sticking to your guns and not watching? Probably for the best: I'd hate for you to get all upset if somebody's tyres went off or they used DRS.

Tazio

17th April 2012, 20:58

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/04/17/article-2131157-12A3BFD4000005DC-512_634x434.jpg

Nice effect with the smoking assault rifle incorporated into the F1 logo :rolleyes: :(

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2131157/More-Bahrain-protests-Formula-One-end-peacefully.htm

schmenke

17th April 2012, 21:10

Not to mention the 12-yr olds holding the banners :s
The effect kind of backfires on me :s

Tazio

17th April 2012, 21:38

Not to mention the 12-yr olds holding the banners :s
The effect kind of backfires on me :s
At least the protests were peaceful.

steveaki13

17th April 2012, 21:53

I can't believe this race is still going to happen.

The teams may be there but no one is going to take the risks that are being asked.

ioan

17th April 2012, 22:27

So I assume you'll be sticking to your guns and not watching? Probably for the best: I'd hate for you to get all upset if somebody's tyres went off or they used DRS.

Yep I won't watch it at all anymore.

gloomyDAY

18th April 2012, 02:27

I hope this kind of massacre (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&skipcontrinter=1) (NSFW, but informational and relevant) doesn't happen again.

I'm not going to watch the race, but it's not worth reading about this crap on Sunday morning.

A FONDO

18th April 2012, 10:32

If I boycott this GP because of the country, I should boycott at least half of the other events. Its all about watching one circuit behind the TV, nevermind if it is located in a desert, polar glacier or aircraft carrier in the open sea.

Bartek

18th April 2012, 11:57

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/305515_394983597202664_187592121275147_1237706_151 704944_n.jpg I found this at Di Resta FB, hmmm

Paul wrote that all drivers have this letter, shame that F1 is used to political games...

EuroTroll

18th April 2012, 11:59

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/305515_394983597202664_187592121275147_1237706_151 704944_n.jpg I found this at Di Resta FB, hmmm

Wow... :s

BDunnell

18th April 2012, 12:02

If I boycott this GP because of the country, I should boycott at least half of the other events.

Yet again, I say that, if you read back through this thread, there are all sorts of reasons why I and others consider this view to be wrong.

A FONDO

18th April 2012, 12:09

Yet again, I say that, if you read back through this thread, there are all sorts of reasons why I and others consider this view to be wrong.

Sorry I haven read it and am not going to do it. If you mean the civil riots organized by the american petrol corporations, keep it for yourself.

Bagwan

18th April 2012, 14:29

"...violence would be our only language and you may suffer the consequences ."

So , the peaceful protests at the airport are only a warning .
Tire smoke and tear gas should never be mixed .

BDunnell

18th April 2012, 14:57

Sorry I haven read it and am not going to do it.

Why? Do you have no wish to be further informed and to have your own views challenged?

If you mean the civil riots organized by the american petrol corporations, keep it for yourself.

What?

Tazio

18th April 2012, 15:07

I find this comment by Button interesting. I'm not trying to single him out; I just wonder if this is the opinion of the other drivers?

Button, when asked by Press Association Sport whether he had any safety concerns this weekend, issued a firm: “No.”

He added: “I trust in the FIA that they know all the information – I don’t personally – so we have to trust in their decision.

“I don’t think they will ever want to put us at risk. They do a lot on safety for drivers, in terms of the circuits and the cars and what have you, and that’s a priority for them.

“So I believe in the FIA’s decision.

“If everything is straightforward and nothing happens, it’s not even going to be in the back of my mind at all.”

Button places complete trust in FIA | Evening Echo (http://www.eecho.ie/news/sport/button-places-complete-trust-in-fia-547989.html)

Knock-on

18th April 2012, 16:49

ArrowsFA1

18th April 2012, 17:32

I didn't think F1 should go to Bahrain this year, not primarily because of safety concerns (which seems to be the FIA's criteria) but because the government in Bahrain appears to be using the event for political (not sporting) purposes when there is political unrest in the country. In my view F1 should not allow itself to be used in this way, and (in theory) FIA statues prevent this from happening

That said, I don't know sufficiently enough about the internal politics of Bahrain to make a judgement on what is going on, I've just read some of what is reported.

One of the issues with the expansion of F1 to new venues in recent years is that the sport has become more political in that governments see hosting a Grand Prix brings them both PR and economic benefits, at least in the short term. The sport, or more perhaps more accurately CVC Capital Partners, generates more money in these new locations than can be gained from returning to historical venues and frankly there's sod all we can do about that.

So...will I watch this weekend? Yes, I'll watch F1 as I always do and have done for more than 30yrs. Not doing so achieves nothing. My hope is that by F1 going to Bahrain more questions are asked of the government than are put to the F1 teams and drivers about the politics.

F1boat

18th April 2012, 18:16

Yet again, I say that, if you read back through this thread, there are all sorts of reasons why I and others consider this view to be wrong.

FIA must have been wrong to continue with the race. Yet, as a fan, I will still watch the race. My passion for the sport is too big.

ioan

18th April 2012, 19:27

Why? Do you have no wish to be further informed and to have your own views challenged?

What?

Welcome to the 21st century western society.

ioan

18th April 2012, 19:28

FIA must have been wrong to continue with the race. Yet, as a fan, I will still watch the race. My passion for the sport is too big.

:down:
Maybe 23 years ago some people in Bulgaria made a mistake.

ioan

18th April 2012, 19:29

So...will I watch this weekend? Yes, I'll watch F1 as I always do and have done for more than 30yrs. Not doing so achieves nothing.

Shallow.

Knock-on

18th April 2012, 19:46

Shallow.

And there's you moaning as per usual about someone questioning you and saying it's a personal attack. :laugh:

I think you could change your name from ioan to irony :D

Bagwan

18th April 2012, 20:14

What a load of bleeding hearts you lot are. The old Forum knee jerking Can-Can is in full swing.

Good old ioan is even going to shift the Political balance by not watching his telly :s hock:

Yada, yada, yada.......

Firstly, sport should not be governed by politics. If people are being shot because F1 is in Bahrain or if the safety of the teams cannot be guaranteed then they shouldn't go but this doesn't seem to be the case. Let us hope so at any rate and Jensons faith in the FIA is correct.

Then we have the political unrest itself which is NONE OF MY BUSINESS. I don't know who's in the right, who's in the wrong or even what it's all about and don't particularly care. Sorry. It's up to the Bahranian people to sort out and I'm sure they will do but I for one am glad the UK isn't sticking it's size 11's in all over the place.

However, one thing that is apparent by holding the event there is that there is a damn sight more exposure of the situation than if the event was cancelled. The protesters now have a platform and a voice that F1 has inadvertently brought.

For those that are truly worried about the Bahrain situation, that's a good thing isn't it. If the good minded people on here had their way, the Bahranian people would have been denied this opportunity to get true international exposure. Way to go chaps.

Bleeding hearts , you say ?

You're concerned for the safety of the teams , but believe the FIA when they say it's all safe , despite the warnings of three days of rage ?
You don't believe the protestors when they say violence is thier only language , and directly threaten that the drivers might suffer the consequences ?

Perhaps you haven't seen the children carrying the protest signs with images of machine guns .
Perhaps you haven't heard of the fifty or so people who are dead since this began .

Maybe you don't know that the same man who owns the rights to this race is also in charge of the men who arrested doctors for helping to care for protestors injured by his own troops .

Your last few sentences sound like a quote from the king .

Bury your head in the sand . The Bahraini people , but for a few , don't want a race to take place .

ioan

18th April 2012, 20:31

And there's you moaning as per usual about someone questioning you and saying it's a personal attack. :laugh:

I think you could change your name from ioan to irony :D

I think you should also change your name to something that starts with, ironically, an 'i'.

Malbec

18th April 2012, 21:07

If people are being shot because F1 is in Bahrain or if the safety of the teams cannot be guaranteed then they shouldn't go but this doesn't seem to be the case.

????

People ARE being shot both with tear gas and plastic bullets to make sure there is a secure environment for the race to take place. The Bahraini authorities have arrested 90 opposition leaders in advance of the weekend to limit demonstrations and riots, guess what event this weekend thats in anticipation of? Just a few days ago a 15 year old boy was shot in the chest and killed in a demonstration against the race.

I keep getting confused because my stance makes me a lily livered liberal according to you or an extremist according to the Bahraini government. At least however I do not sweep things under the carpet though.

That said, I will watch the race despite the blood spilt over the event (I won't pretend there won't be any) because I believe the event is as much an advert for the opposition as it is for the government and allows their cause to gain worldwide exposure for the duration of the weekend (and to some extent, a little protection).

What I fear though is the backlash of the government against the protestors in the weeks and months after the race when the world's interest has moved on. Just as last year when the real brutality, the torture and rape of doctors and nurses who treated protestors for example happened, and there is little to suggest the government has changed its ways. The government will be embarrassed and humiliated if the race weekend doesn't go seamlessly and we can all tell that that will not be the case.

ioan

18th April 2012, 22:00

Good old ioan is even going to shift the Political balance by not watching his telly :s hock:

BTW I do not have a telly, and don't think there is need to buy one.
And I will be watching great motorsport with real racing this week end, not a bunch of muppets racing under guns.

Tazio

18th April 2012, 22:01

I'm going to watch the race. I think it should have been cancelled, but now that it's on I have to admit that it holds an extra dimension of morbid curiosity.

Porsche team withdraws from Bahrain race - F1technical.net (http://www.f1technical.net/news/17264?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+F1technicalnetFormulaOneNews+ %28F1technical.net+.+Formula+One+news%29)

The MRS team has decided not to travel to Bahrain and therefore skip the first race of the Porsche Supercup.

“It is the first time in our team history that we have to cancel a race of the Porsche MOBIL1 Supercup,” team boss Karsten Molitor said. “In the end we have the responsibility for our employees.

“The race in Bahrain is for us one of the seasons highlights, therefore it was not easy to come to a decision. According to our drivers and partners we have reached the conclusion to start only at the second race in Barcelona on 13th of May.”

F1: Clashes Hit Bahrain Formula One Exhibit (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-clashes-hit-bahrain-formula-one-exhibit/)

Security forces fired stun grenades Wednesday at anti-government protesters who swarmed into a cultural exhibition for Bahrain's Formula One race, setting off street battles and sending visitors fleeing for cover.

Bahrain GP far from business as usual | MOTORSPORT News (http://tvnz.co.nz/motorsport-news/bahrain-gp-far-business-usual-4840496)

Anti-government protesters, determined to show it is not business as normal in the country after a crushed uprising last year, are planning 'days of rage' directed at the race while security forces have rounded up dozens of activists.

A report by Amnesty International said this week that it had received credible reports of the use of torture in Bahrain despite promises of reform.

ioan

18th April 2012, 22:01

I think you should also change your name to something that starts with, ironically, an 'i'.

And before anyone get's their panties in a twist the word is not a 5 letter word.

DexDexter

18th April 2012, 23:03

I'm definitely going to watch it. IMO they should have cancelled it but since it takes place, I may as well watch it. To be perfectly honest, while nobody wants to see people get hurt, the Arab spring is pretty alien to me anyway since they (once free) seem to vote for religious parties which will eventually put those countries back to a strict, authoritarian rule anyway.

ArrowsFA1

18th April 2012, 23:09

John Yates says incidents at grand prix are possible and police will use live rounds if necessary.
Bahrain unable to guarantee safety for Formula One says former Met officer | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/18/bahrain-formula-one-yates-safety)

This is the man who said it was perfectly safe for F1 to go to Bahrain just a few days ago.

ArrowsFA1

18th April 2012, 23:15

Shallow.
Commenting on just one very short passage of a four paragraph post could, if you want it to, make it appear that way.

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 00:21

Firstly, sport should not be governed by politics.

As said time after time in this thread, such a view is, if I may say so, downright naive. What do you mean when you say this? To me, they are empty, platitudinous words. Maybe you might like to explain how sport and politics are expected not to mix. The notion is fanciful. Fact is, they do mix, and there is nothing that can be done to alter this.

Then we have the political unrest itself which is NONE OF MY BUSINESS.

So you care not one jot about human rights violations?

I don't know who's in the right, who's in the wrong or even what it's all about and don't particularly care. Sorry.

That's no-one's fault but your own. Don't expect others to form a view based on such ignorance. I'm sorry to sound rude, but that's what, by your own admission, you are on this subject — ignorant. This is nothing to be proud of, and I would have thought you could do better than that.

However, one thing that is apparent by holding the event there is that there is a damn sight more exposure of the situation than if the event was cancelled. The protesters now have a platform and a voice that F1 has inadvertently brought.

So you are in favour of an excuse being given for potentially violent protest? Rather an odd point of view to hold. And, let's face it, they had a platform without F1 — at least to those of us who keep up to date with international news and don't just happen to come across it when it involves a sport we enjoy.

For those that are truly worried about the Bahrain situation, that's a good thing isn't it. If the good minded people on here had their way, the Bahranian people would have been denied this opportunity to get true international exposure. Way to go chaps.

By your own admission, you are ignorant of what has been happening in Bahrain. What you mean is that the Bahraini opposition has gained exposure in your eyes. Others would be well aware of the cause without F1 being involved. And what does this 'international exposure' achieve? What will the practical result be of this exposure? Earlier, you said you were pleased the UK hadn't got involved; now you are saying you hope the protesters gain an international platform. Why? So that other countries intervene? Your opinions are utterly muddled, I have to say. But given that you don't know what's been happening in Bahrain, no-one, least of all yourself, should be surprised at this.

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 00:22

Your last few sentences sound like a quote from the king .

Or Jackie Stewart.

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 00:23

That said, I will watch the race despite the blood spilt over the event (I won't pretend there won't be any) because I believe the event is as much an advert for the opposition as it is for the government and allows their cause to gain worldwide exposure for the duration of the weekend (and to some extent, a little protection).

But again I ask: to what end? What actual, practical good will this do to the opposition's cause?

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 00:24

I'm going to watch the race. I think it should have been cancelled, but now that it's on I have to admit that it holds an extra dimension of morbid curiosity.

I applaud your honesty in saying so.

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 00:25

F1: Clashes Hit Bahrain Formula One Exhibit (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-clashes-hit-bahrain-formula-one-exhibit/)

Bahrain GP far from business as usual | MOTORSPORT News (http://tvnz.co.nz/motorsport-news/bahrain-gp-far-business-usual-4840496)

It simply astonishes me that anyone could think it acceptable to sweep such things under the carpet, quite frankly — and especially not care.

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 10:11

And before anyone get's their panties in a twist the word is not a 5 letter word.

Ingot?

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 10:16

So you care not one jot about human rights violations?

So what if he doesn't? And if he does, how is one individual on an F1 forum expressing their opinion going to change ANYTHING?

If the protestors really want to be heard and taken seriously, use the media scrutiny to their advantage and stage peaceful protests without violence. If the authorities then use violence, straight away the protestors win the argument.....

F1boat

19th April 2012, 10:24

:down:
Maybe 23 years ago some people in Bulgaria made a mistake.

Maybe you should not try to antagonize every forum member who has a different opinion or, God forbid, happens to like F1 in an F1 forum. :)

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 10:34

So what if he doesn't? And if he does, how is one individual on an F1 forum expressing their opinion going to change ANYTHING?

No-one is suggesting it would, are they?

If the protestors really want to be heard and taken seriously, use the media scrutiny to their advantage and stage peaceful protests without violence. If the authorities then use violence, straight away the protestors win the argument.....

That would be to play the regime's game by allowing the race to go ahead, and they clearly don't want to do that. And I'd suggest you haven't been following the events deriving from the 'Arab Spring' all that closely either, because you clearly haven't noticed that the regime has already cracked down on peaceful protest in Bahrain with violence.

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 10:37

No-one is suggesting it would, are they?

That would be to play the regime's game by allowing the race to go ahead, and they clearly don't want to do that. And I'd suggest you haven't been following the events deriving from the 'Arab Spring' all that closely either, because you clearly haven't noticed that the regime has already cracked down on peaceful protest in Bahrain with violence.

Aha, so violent retaliation is the answer?

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 10:57

Aha, so violent retaliation is the answer?

It is an answer in these situations. You are applying to these revolts your views about how best to protest against issues in a Western democracy — 'protest peacefully and you'll get your message across more effectively than if you use violence'. This doesn't apply to attempts to overthrow these authoritarian regimes. Were the actions of the Libyan rebels entirely peaceful? No, but the international community supported them. And the fact is that the Bahraini regime has, as I said, already cracked down on peaceful protest with violence. It is continuing to respond to legitimate protest with authoritarian measures, not least in its efforts to prevent trouble during the GP.

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 11:02

It is an answer in these situations. You are applying to these revolts your views about how best to protest against issues in a Western democracy — 'protest peacefully and you'll get your message across more effectively than if you use violence'. This doesn't apply to attempts to overthrow these authoritarian regimes. Were the actions of the Libyan rebels entirely peaceful? No, but the international community supported them. And the fact is that the Bahraini regime has, as I said, already cracked down on peaceful protest with violence. It is continuing to respond to legitimate protest with authoritarian measures, not least in its efforts to prevent trouble during the GP.

And yet, the whole world and his dog knows about the troubles. The spotlight right now is on BECAUSE OF not despite the F1 race. Surely, the press scrutiny in the race going ahead ought to be seen as a good thing, as it further highlights the plight of the protestors against the regime?

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 11:13

Force India member leaves Bahrain after incident - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98957)

Dave B

19th April 2012, 11:14

BBC Sport - Force India caught up in firebomb attack in Bahrain (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17767985)

That's not a headline that anybody should have to read in relation to a sporting event. :s

SGWilko

19th April 2012, 11:16

Dave B

19th April 2012, 11:27

More on John Yates, as Drop The Dead Donkey might have said:

9.31am: Bahrain: In his Guardian interview John Yates insisted that protesters were not being abused by the police. If they were "that would be on YouTube", he insisted.

His remark was an obvious hostage to fortune, and it hasn't taken long for activists to post YouTube of "allegedly terrible things" happening to protesters.

The opposition Al-Wefaq alleges that the Bahrain police were caught red handed beating protesters last night in YouTube footage (https://twitter.com/#!/AlWefaqEN/statuses/192891455952527361).

The clip, which cannot be independently verified, claims to show protesters being severely beaten by riot police.

Source: Syria crisis, Bahrain unrest - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/19/syria-crisis-bahrain-unrest-live)

Ranger

19th April 2012, 11:33

Strike one for the protestors? :down:

Two wrongs don't make a right, unfortunately.

We will be lucky to see the rest of the GP weekend pass without further incident.

F1boat

19th April 2012, 11:38

Strike one for the protestors? :down:

It was a Molotov cocktail, according to Autosport. Great human beings, those valiant protesters. However, F1 must leave immediately. The sport must not risk the safety of drivers and personnel.

BDunnell

19th April 2012, 12:09

And yet, the whole world and his dog knows about the troubles. The spotlight right now is on BECAUSE OF not despite the F1 race. Surely, the press scrutiny in the race going ahead ought to be seen as a good thing, as it further highlights the plight of the protestors against the regime?

Better-informed people knew about them before they affected last year's GP. You, I presume, heard about events in Syria, Libya and Egypt without there being GPs in any of those countries?