Bahrain GP- Will it be Cancelled?

[BDunnell]

It was a Molotov cocktail, according to Autosport. Great human beings, those valiant protesters.

Well, let's face it, this incident was apparently unconnected with the GP — the Force India personnel were in an unbranded car, and not wearing team uniform, though it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if they were Westerners they could have attracted attention for that reason. It just serves to underline that Bahrain is not the safest place to be, and why should we expect anything else? After all, this is a nation in which there is an ongoing revolt against an undemocratic government.

[F1boat]

Well, let's face it, this incident was apparently unconnected with the GP — the Force India personnel were in an unbranded car, and not wearing team uniform, though it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if they were Westerners they could have attracted attention for that reason. It just serves to underline that Bahrain is not the safest place to be, and why should we expect anything else? After all, this is a nation in which there is an ongoing revolt against an undemocratic government.

Personally I think that it's Sunni vs Shi'a all over again. F1 has no business in such places. It will be wise to cancel the event. If they don't, I will still watch it though :)

[wedge]

Well, let's face it, this incident was apparently unconnected with the GP — the Force India personnel were in an unbranded car, and not wearing team uniform, though it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that if they were Westerners they could have attracted attention for that reason. It just serves to underline that Bahrain is not the safest place to be, and why should we expect anything else? After all, this is a nation in which there is an ongoing revolt against an undemocratic government.

Makes you wonder how those security reports were conducted.

[BDunnell]

Makes you wonder how those security reports were conducted.

Quite. And this after a number of anti-government protesters were specifically locked up for the period of the GP so as to stop them potentially causing trouble...

[Robinho]

the GP will not take place, there will be more incidents before the teams call time and get out. The FIA has failed in its promise to guarantee the safety of the teams, and has failed in its obligations when researching the state of the ground ahead of the GP

[ShiftingGears]

Makes you wonder how those security reports were conducted.

Indeed. However F1's presence in the country provokes/amplifies this sort of violence, no doubt.

When the reports were conducted, there is a possibility all this was bubbling under the surface, waiting for an event used politically like this for the whole thing to boil over.

[Dave B]

Makes you wonder how those security reports were conducted.
If I was a cynic I'd say that Yates of the Yard was handed a brown envelope and a pre-prepared report to sign. However, I'm certain that's not what happened. Whatsoever. At all. No sireeee. Perish the thought. As if.

[BDunnell]

the GP will not take place, there will be more incidents before the teams call time and get out. The FIA has failed in its promise to guarantee the safety of the teams, and has failed in its obligations when researching the state of the ground ahead of the GP

And it has given an absurd, shameful even, level of credence to local reports from those with a vested interest — i.e. members or representatives of the regime.

[BDunnell]

Indeed. However F1's presence in the country provokes/amplifies this sort of violence, no doubt.

When the reports were conducted, there is a possibility all this was bubbling under the surface, waiting for an event used politically like this for the whole thing to boil over.

Not that far under the surface, it must be said. This is one of the reasons why I find the decision to go ahead so reprehensible — because the troubles never ceased after they began last year. Your use of the word 'amplification' is absolutely right.

[Dave B]

Nico Hulkenburg has spoken out, although one might suggest it's too little too late. I wonder if he'd have said anything had it not been his team involved in the attack.


"It is obviously not right that that sort of stuff happens," said Hulkenberg. "We are here to race. The F1 business is about entertainment, and these sort of things should not really be happening to us.

"Whether it is right or not I don't really know. It's difficult to say. I am not a politician, I am a Formula 1 driver, but it should not really be happening should it?


"It is not good that we have to worry about it: that is the way it is now, and let's see and hope that the rest of the weekend is good and calm."


When asked if he felt safe in Bahrain, he said. "I feel okay, yeah."

Source: Nico Hulkenberg says it's not right that F1 team members have to fear for their safety in Bahrain - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98963)

[Robinho]

If I was a cynic I'd say that Yates of the Yard was handed a brown envelope and a pre-prepared report to sign. However, I'm certain that's not what happened. Whatsoever. At all. No sireeee. Perish the thought. As if.

he wouldn't need a brown envelope would he (in this case), as is he not employed by the Bahraini's anyway?

[BDunnell]

Nico Hulkenburg has spoken out, although one might suggest it's too little too late. I wonder if he'd have said anything had it not been his team involved in the attack.



Source: Nico Hulkenberg says it's not right that F1 team members have to fear for their safety in Bahrain - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98963)

Again, it's this pointless use of the word 'should', as in 'it should not be happening', that annoys me. Of course it shouldn't be happening in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world, and it is happening. This is the situation with which F1 has chosen to deal. F1 has made its bed with the Bahraini regime, and now has to lie in it. Moaning about how 'these sort of things should not be happening to us' and how sport 'should not' be politicised misses the point entirely.

[Dave B]

he wouldn't need a brown envelope would he (in this case), as is he not employed by the Bahraini's anyway?
I do hope you're not suggesting that Yates may have a vested interest and as such hold a biased view. Surely not? :p

[Malbec]

Aha, so violent retaliation is the answer?

Violence may or may not be the answer, but it was predictable don't you think?

Whenever there has been a situation where a section of the population demand reform and that is denied to them and met with oppression, the moderates who are usually peaceful tend to get sidelined and more extremist violent groups gain strength.

Isn't that how just about every revolution worthy of the name started?

Now the cracks are beginning to show with the Force India incident and we haven't even reached Friday yet...

[Malbec]

Again, it's this pointless use of the word 'should', as in 'it should not be happening', that annoys me. Of course it shouldn't be happening in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world, and it is happening. This is the situation with which F1 has chosen to deal. F1 has made its bed with the Bahraini regime, and now has to lie in it. Moaning about how 'these sort of things should not be happening to us' and how sport 'should not' be politicised misses the point entirely.

Perhaps but Hulkenburg like many other F1 bods is living in an amazingly insular world that has very little contact with reality in so many ways. I wouldn't be quibbling over subtleties with his comment, the fact that he made them at all is to be applauded.

[BDunnell]

Violence may or may not be the answer, but it was predictable don't you think?

Whenever there has been a situation where a section of the population demand reform and that is denied to them and met with oppression, the moderates who are usually peaceful tend to get sidelined and more extremist violent groups gain strength.

Isn't that how just about every revolution worthy of the name started?

Exactly. The occasional exceptions are welcome, but extremely rare. It is naive to suggest that the Bahraini protesters would somehow be 'better off' to follow those examples, because history shows they rarely work.

[BDunnell]

Perhaps but Hulkenburg like many other F1 bods is living in an amazingly insular world that has very little contact with reality in so many ways. I wouldn't be quibbling over subtleties with his comment, the fact that he made them at all is to be applauded.

Forgive me, but why? His comments are entirely empty of opinion, except to say that violence 'shouldn't' be happening to F1 teams, which barely counts as an opinion.

[SGWilko]

Better-informed people knew about them before they affected last year's GP. You, I presume, heard about events in Syria, Libya and Egypt without there being GPs in any of those countries?

Indeed - and issues continue in Syria and the like despite them not having a race (yet)....

Your point thus being.....?

[ShiftingGears]

Again, it's this pointless use of the word 'should', as in 'it should not be happening', that annoys me. Of course it shouldn't be happening in an ideal world, but this isn't an ideal world, and it is happening. This is the situation with which F1 has chosen to deal. F1 has made its bed with the Bahraini regime, and now has to lie in it. Moaning about how 'these sort of things should not be happening to us' and how sport 'should not' be politicised misses the point entirely.

When drivers especially are approached with this topic, I have no doubt that playing dumb and giving vague and empty answers is a deliberate tactic to avoid potential repercussions in terms of their F1 career prospects. Even Mark Webber's comments on the topic this time around aren't so forthright.

[BDunnell]

Indeed - and issues continue in Syria and the like despite them not having a race (yet)....

That you are ill-informed to suggest that events in Bahrain have gone unreported outside of the discussion surrounding the F1 race. They have not, if you consume the right media.

[BDunnell]

When drivers especially are approached with this topic, I have no doubt that playing dumb and giving vague and empty answers is a deliberate tactic to avoid potential repercussions in terms of their F1 career prospects. Even Mark Webber's comments on the topic this time around aren't so forthright.

Indeed. And it's not their fault that F1 has decided to go there and stuck with the decision in the face of evidence that Ecclestone and the FIA have simply chosen to ignore in favour of the more favourable reports.

[SGWilko]

That you are ill-informed to suggest that events in Bahrain have gone unreported outside of the discussion surrounding the F1 race. They have not, if you consume the right media.

The point is, race or no race, there will be protests. Nothing you, I or Ken Dodd's tickle stick can do about it but the Bahraini's.

Of course, the increased media scrutiny should provide a conduit for both sides to be heard, and as Joe Saward has suggested in his blog, this is what has been happening. Is that good or bad to allow both sides of an argument to be heard?

[DexDexter]

the GP will not take place, there will be more incidents before the teams call time and get out. The FIA has failed in its promise to guarantee the safety of the teams, and has failed in its obligations when researching the state of the ground ahead of the GP

I don't know, there are incidents every year at the Brazilian GP and still they go back there year after year. The teams will race if the FIA doesn't decide otherwise.

[SGWilko]

I don't know, there are incidents every year at the Brazilian GP and still they go back there year after year. The teams will race if the FIA doesn't decide otherwise.

Yeah, but Brazil is OK, cos being kidnapped at gunpoint is not politically motivated, so that's allowed!!! If you allow a race to take place in one country where there are known risks, it's a little bit skew whiff to bleat on about it elsewhere if you ask me.

Pot and kettle and all that.

[BDunnell]

The point is, race or no race, there will be protests. Nothing you, I or Ken Dodd's tickle stick can do about it but the Bahraini's.

Of course, the increased media scrutiny should provide a conduit for both sides to be heard, and as Joe Saward has suggested in his blog, this is what has been happening. Is that good or bad to allow both sides of an argument to be heard?

I'm afraid I find your points on this ill-thought-through. Anti-government forces in Libya, Syria and Egypt managed to get their messages across without the 'benefit' of a GP taking place. The same would have been true in Bahrain too, and protests there have continued to be reported outside of the discussion relating to the F1 race — maybe not in the outlets you consume, but the coverage has been there.

[BDunnell]

Yeah, but Brazil is OK, cos being kidnapped at gunpoint is not politically motivated, so that's allowed!!! If you allow a race to take place in one country where there are known risks, it's a little bit skew whiff to bleat on about it elsewhere if you ask me.

Pot and kettle and all that.

There are very eloquent posts earlier in this thread which sum up far more neatly than I can why these situations are totally different. I suggest you and others bringing up this tired Brazil point go back and read them.

[SGWilko]

There are very eloquent posts earlier in this thread which sum up far more neatly than I can why these situations are totally different. I suggest you and others bringing up this tired Brazil point go back and read them.

Put aside - if you can - the political aspect. I've seen the 'yes, but you cannot seperate politics from sport' arguments, but just try and imagine it if you can.

If they allow the race to continue despite the risks that are and do happen to team personel in Brazil year after year, why the different stance (remember, non political assumption mode is still active) for the risks to those same team personel in Bahrain?

[SGWilko]

If the race is cancelled, does it all go quiet and we are all happy, or will the same issues still remain?

What would happen had the race been postponed for a second year?

What's going to change if the race does go ahead?

[ShiftingGears]

If the race is cancelled, does it all go quiet and we are all happy, or will the same issues still remain?

What would happen had the race been postponed for a second year?

What's going to change if the race does go ahead?

If it is cancelled the Grand Prix wouldn't be amplifying the violence and unrest in the country like it is doing at the moment. That does not fall under the category of responsible behavior for most global organisations, I imagine. No-one is claiming that their issues will vanish if the F1 is not there.

[BDunnell]

Put aside - if you can - the political aspect. I've seen the 'yes, but you cannot seperate politics from sport' arguments, but just try and imagine it if you can.

If they allow the race to continue despite the risks that are and do happen to team personel in Brazil year after year, why the different stance (remember, non political assumption mode is still active) for the risks to those same team personel in Bahrain?

It is utterly pointless to try and put aside the links that can occur between politics and sport. On those grounds, why try? They exist, they have done for a very long time, and they will carry on existing. The Bahrain GP is, by its very nature — being pushed forward by the regime — a deeply political event.

I see the crime that affects team personnel in Brazil as being a drop in the ocean compared with the risk of violence in Bahrain. Nor is the underlying issue in any way as serious. To me the Bahrain issue isn't primarily about the safety of team personnel, but the wider moral matter of whether it is appropriate for F1 to go there given the actions of the regime — the regime that wants the race — in putting down protests. To me it clear that it's not.

[SGWilko]

If it is cancelled the Grand Prix wouldn't be amplifying the violence and unrest in the country like it is doing at the moment.

In addition, the oppressive Bahraini regime will feel as if it is an opportunity lost in terms of international legitimacy, which is, in my opinion, a good thing.

The issues will remain, but at least the violence would not be aggravated by a sporting organisation which is supposed to be seen as responsible.

So cancel the race and hope it goes away? There are two sides to this struggle, and the opressed are being given their chance to be heard. Whether you deem firebombing the F1 teams is a good way to do it or not is a different matter.

[BDunnell]

If the race is cancelled, does it all go quiet and we are all happy, or will the same issues still remain?

What would happen had the race been postponed for a second year?

What's going to change if the race does go ahead?

The point at stake is the desire of the Bahraini people for political change — a desire that, when articulated through protest, has been violently suppressed by the same regime that is desperate to stage an F1 race, and seeks to gain legitimacy through so doing.

[SGWilko]

It is utterly pointless to try and put aside the links that can occur between politics and sport. On those grounds, why try? They exist, they have done for a very long time, and they will carry on existing. The Bahrain GP is, by its very nature — being pushed forward by the regime — a deeply political event.

I see the crime that affects team personnel in Brazil as being a drop in the ocean compared with the risk of violence in Bahrain. Nor is the underlying issue in any way as serious. To me the Bahrain issue isn't primarily about the safety of team personnel, but the wider moral matter of whether it is appropriate for F1 to go there given the actions of the regime — the regime that wants the race — in putting down protests. To me it clear that it's not.

Well now, look at the Chinese 'regime'. Do you think the Chinese have freedom of speech and live in a democracy? Subtle difference there may well be, but a similarity there is nonetheless. Is this any less or more acceptable.

Of course, the Chinese are not using the GP as are the Bahraini's, but the Bahrainis were not doing so when the race first went there.

Now, the FIA is 'apolitical'. If they cancel the race, it will be politically motivated. If the race goes ahead, it will be politically motivated.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The fact that the Bahrain struggle is at the forefront of news has to provide the protestors with a great opportunity to get their point peacefully across. But, we all see the point anyway, the rest of the civilised world needs to put pressure on the Rulers in Bahrain.

But given the historical British track record that'll a bit hypocritical....

[BDunnell]

So cancel the race and hope it goes away?

You are putting across very well here the view of someone interested in F1 but disinterested in international politics and human rights. It's not a question of hoping anything goes away. Of course the problems in Bahrain will not go away if the race is cancelled. Nobody is suggesting that they will, because — I hate to tell you — this is a deeper-seated issue than one just about an F1 race. This is a popular uprising against a totalitarian regime we're talking about here, not just protests about a motor race.


There are two sides to this struggle, and the opressed are being given their chance to be heard.

A chance they already had without an F1 race taking place, just as their counterparts in Libya, Syria and Egypt had. Again, F1 is not the be-all-and-end-all.

[ShiftingGears]

So cancel the race and hope it goes away? There are two sides to this struggle, and the opressed are being given their chance to be heard. Whether you deem firebombing the F1 teams is a good way to do it or not is a different matter.

Frankly it is not the role of Formula One to be used as a political platform for a violent power struggle, regardless of whose plight is regarded as right or wrong.

[BDunnell]

Well now, look at the Chinese 'regime'. Do you think the Chinese have freedom of speech and live in a democracy? Subtle difference there may well be, but a similarity there is nonetheless. Is this any less or more acceptable.

Of course, the Chinese are not using the GP as are the Bahraini's, but the Bahrainis were not doing so when the race first went there.

Now, the FIA is 'apolitical'. If they cancel the race, it will be politically motivated. If the race goes ahead, it will be politically motivated.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The fact that the Bahrain struggle is at the forefront of news has to provide the protestors with a great opportunity to get their point peacefully across. But, we all see the point anyway, the rest of the civilised world needs to put pressure on the Rulers in Bahrain.

But given the historical British track record that'll a bit hypocritical....

Read the thread back, and you will find contributions regarding China that, again, counter your arguments.

[F1boat]

To me the Bahrain issue isn't primarily about the safety of team personnel, but the wider moral matter of whether it is appropriate for F1 to go there given the actions of the regime — the regime that wants the race — in putting down protests. To me it clear that it's not.

I personally don't think that F1 should go to states like Bahrain, but the prime difference to other dictatorships is exactly the safety of the crew, at least in my opinion. In China the race was safe. In the kingdom of Bahrain, it isn't.

[SGWilko]

You are putting across very well here the view of someone interested in F1 but disinterested in international politics and human rights. It's not a question of hoping anything goes away. Of course the problems in Bahrain will not go away if the race is cancelled. Nobody is suggesting that they will, because — I hate to tell you — this is a deeper-seated issue than one just about an F1 race. This is a popular uprising against a totalitarian regime we're talking about here, not just protests about a motor race.



A chance they already had without an F1 race taking place, just as their counterparts in Libya, Syria and Egypt had. Again, F1 is not the be-all-and-end-all.

No, quite right, but I was under the impression we are specifically discussing the Bahrain GP and whether or not it should be cancelled. Am I posting in the wrong thread?

[BDunnell]

Frankly it is not the role of Formula One to be used as a political platform for a violent power struggle, regardless of whose plight is regarded as right or wrong.

I agree. This is very different from saying 'it should not be political'. F1 has, as a result of its own leadership, been thrown into an utterly unnecessary situation and allowed itself to be used by a violent, undemocratic, totalitarian regime. This has never happened to such an extent before. This is one reason why Bahrain is a special case.

[BDunnell]

I personally don't think that F1 should go to states like Bahrain, but the prime difference to other dictatorships is exactly the safety of the crew, at least in my opinion. In China the race was safe. In the kingdom of Bahrain, it isn't.

It is one consideration, certainly. But, as stated before, China is a different kettle of fish because the regime — another unpleasant one, of course — has not sought, and managed, to use the race for such overtly political ends as has its counterpart in Bahrain.

[BDunnell]

No, quite right, but I was under the impression we are specifically discussing the Bahrain GP and whether or not it should be cancelled. Am I posting in the wrong thread?

It would be utterly naive to seek to discuss one and not the other. They are too deeply intertwined.

[Bagwan]

If the government has it's way , the protestors will have no voice .
They have arrested many in the run up to this race , to keep them quiet .
They have suppressed protest with tear gas and bullets .

The protestors have responded with mostly non-violent action , even to the point of having children carry banners , presumably because the regime would be deterred from using tear gas on kids .

But , in a world where tear gas and bullets are suppressing the voice of the people , the molotov cocktail is merely a tool to get attention .
Un-branded cars and non-uniformed employees are all these guys have to keep them safe on the road to Manama ?

The term "sitting duck" comes to mind .

As for the guys on the ground reporting , I hope they will be safe , not so much from the protestors , but from the repressive regime , itself , as it has never had the wish to show the real truth in this affair .

[Dave B]

They have suppressed protest with tear gas and bullets .

The protestors have responded with mostly non-violent action , even to the point of having children carry banners , presumably because the regime would be deterred from using tear gas on kids .

At least it's good for the British economy. :s
AIUK : Bahrain: UK tear gas exports must be more closely scrutinised (http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=19922)

[BDunnell]

If the government has it's way , the protestors will have no voice .

Exactly right — the same government that so wants the race to go ahead. Reason enough for it to be cancelled.

[Dave B]

More news from Bahrain, and again it's not good:


3.42pm: Bahrain: Security forces fired teargas and stun grenades today at hundreds of anti-government protesters, the Associated Press reports, citing one of its photographers. AP says the marchers chanted slogans against the Formula One grand prix and appealed for the release of Abdulhadi al-Khawaja, the jailed activist who is on hunger strike.

The opposition al-Wefaq has posted a photo which is said to show gas canisters in Manama today.

Source: Syria crisis, Bahrain unrest - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/19/syria-crisis-bahrain-unrest-live)

[BDunnell]

More news from Bahrain, and again it's not good:



Source: Syria crisis, Bahrain unrest - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/19/syria-crisis-bahrain-unrest-live)

Let no-one pretend, as some seem to be attempting, that this is purely an F1 matter. It is being covered on BBC News by their security correspondent Frank Gardner, rather than sports reporters.

[Dave B]

None of the drivers used the Thursday press conference to say anything remotely controversial:




Q: (Thomas Hanratty - Gulf Daily News) Obviously there’s been a lot of media hype in the build-up to this weekend; has it been much of a distraction for you, in terms of your preparations, or have you just been able to block everything out and keep focused?

HK: It hasn’t had the slightest influence on my preparation. I’ve prepared for the Grand Prix, physically and mentally, the same way that I do any other race. That’s all I can answer to that question.

RG: Well, we’ve been preparing for the event as well as we can. As you say, we can’t ignore the situation but in another way, I hope the race may make a clear vision and help the situation and I think the Grand Prix will be nice.

TG: No, we have made the same preparation as all the other races.

LH: They’ve said it all. The team has just been focusing on preparing ourselves for the best way of trying to get some wins.

NR: No, we have been preparing to the best of my possibilities and the team’s also.FM: Yeah, the same preparation as always. We came here for the sport, that’s the best thing to do, it’s a sport.


Source: Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/4/13246.html)

[F1boat]

Obviously the drivers try to do their job in the best possible way, which is quite normal. As a motorsport, F1 remains dangerous, so the mind of the competitors must focus on the challenge ahead. Also, if the protesters threaten the security of the F1 personnel, the authorities naturally must defend the guests or we might end with them killed. However, FIA should have never put the F1 crew in such horrible situation, when the drivers and team members risk their life in a violent and possibly religious struggle between furious people (potential killing mob) and a frightened tyrants who are ready to prepare their regime by all means possible. A Turkish or, even better, a San Marino GP would have been much better for the sport.

[schmenke]

Whatever happens this weekend, I do hope those 12-yr old boys who were holding the banners are safe :(

[ioan]

Maybe you should not try to antagonize every forum member who has a different opinion or, God forbid, happens to like F1 in an F1 forum. :)

You started it, so take it like a man.

[ioan]

Forgive me, but why? His comments are entirely empty of opinion, except to say that violence 'shouldn't' be happening to F1 teams, which barely counts as an opinion.

Exactly, especially when he finishes by saying he is OK. That's what a 16 year old would say.

[ioan]

When drivers especially are approached with this topic, I have no doubt that playing dumb and giving vague and empty answers is a deliberate tactic to avoid potential repercussions in terms of their F1 career prospects. Even Mark Webber's comments on the topic this time around aren't so forthright.

What repercussions?!
Which team would fire Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton for saying what they think?
Crap excuse.

[ioan]

I'm afraid I find your points on this ill-thought-through. Anti-government forces in Libya, Syria and Egypt managed to get their messages across without the 'benefit' of a GP taking place. The same would have been true in Bahrain too, and protests there have continued to be reported outside of the discussion relating to the F1 race — maybe not in the outlets you consume, but the coverage has been there.

I am a bit surprised by some of the comments around here. It seems that people are at sea when it comes to comparing crime with a fight for freedom and democracy.

[driveace]

Lets hope that if the race goes ahead,that security at the track is very good,as all we need is one single protestor running on the race track whoilst the race is in progress,as we have had before .And any fatalities caused by something like this would taint F1 for many year to come

[BDunnell]

I am a bit surprised by some of the comments around here. It seems that people are at sea when it comes to comparing crime with a fight for freedom and democracy.

Absolutely. One is a situation I think it's more or less acceptable for F1 to put itself into. The other isn't.

[ioan]

Absolutely. One is a situation I think it's more or less acceptable for F1 to put itself into. The other isn't.

Exactly crime is something that can not be avoided, it can happen in any country, even at a European GP.
Riots are a completely different thing.

[ioan]

BTW has anyone seen Bernie or Jean in Bahrain this week?

[EuroTroll]

Lets hope that if the race goes ahead,that security at the track is very good,as all we need is one single protestor running on the race track whoilst the race is in progress,as we have had before .And any fatalities caused by something like this would taint F1 for many year to come

I've been having disturbing thoughts about that, too. Someone running on the track, or someone throwing a petrol bomb... The consequences could be absolutely catastrophic.

The race really should be called off.

[ioan]

The race really should be called off.

Will not happen unless the drivers or teams desist.
Calling it off a 2nd time in a row voids the contract. The egos and the stakes involved are huge.

[Bagwan]

If it isn't stopped before it happens , there is every likelyhood that something big will happen during the race .

The protestors need only cause a stir upwind of the race track to get some tear gas gas floating through the crowd .
The moment the mascara runs will be the moment it all comes to a screaching halt .

The drivers have to deal with enough danger without the addition of bullets and tear gas .

[BDunnell]

How many opinions on Bahrain is this now from Damon Hill?

Bahrain Grand Prix should go on but the sport needs to look at itself | Damon Hill | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix)

[ioan]

The drivers have to deal with enough danger without the addition of bullets and tear gas .

They have a choice of stopping this charade by their own will, if they don't then they are as responsible for the consequences as any of the Bahraini or FIA, or teams or the resident mophead.

[ioan]

How many opinions on Bahrain is this now from Damon Hill?

Bahrain Grand Prix should go on but the sport needs to look at itself | Damon Hill | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix)

We can safely call him The Chameleon from now on.

BTW, plenty of news agencies have been refused entry visas to Bahrain. I wonder why?!

[ShiftingGears]

What repercussions?!
Which team would fire Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton for saying what they think?
Crap excuse.

I wasn't thinking of fired as such - I was thinking more about drivers lower in the pecking order actually, for example;
If drivers are in contract renegotiation for a competitive seat, sponsors might put pressure on the teams to choose the driver who toes the corporate line, as it would be seen as less risky. If a driver was in a marginal position, I think it would have an impact. Hamilton would be an interesting case, Bahrain owns a majority of McLaren, and I daresay if they wanted to, they could order McLaren to terminate his contract.

[ioan]

I wasn't thinking of fired as such - I was thinking more about drivers lower in the pecking order actually, for example;
If drivers are in contract renegotiation for a competitive seat, sponsors might put pressure on the teams to choose the driver who toes the corporate line, as it would be seen as less risky. If a driver was in a marginal position, I think it would have an impact. Hamilton would be an interesting case, Bahrain owns a majority of McLaren, and I daresay if they wanted to, they could order McLaren to terminate his contract.

So what about the top drivers? Why don't they do something to help the others in such crappy situations?

[ShiftingGears]

So what about the top drivers? Why don't they do something to help the others in such crappy situations?

Probably because they feel their comments would not be worth the potential cost to their teams in lost revenue. Money is undeniably, after all, why F1 is in Bahrain.

[ShiftingGears]

Ecclestone is in Bahrain.

Bahrain Grand Prix 2012: authorities refusal to allow news media into the kingdom causes uproar - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formulaone/9215512/Bahrain-Grand-Prix-2012-authorities-refusal-to-allow-news-media-into-the-kingdom-causes-uproar.html)

[Dave B]

Ecclestone is in Bahrain


But apparently leaving before qualifying to watch the London marathon. How brave of him.

[SGWilko]

But apparently leaving before qualifying to watch the London marathon. How brave of him.

Oh, don't they have televisions in Bahrain? :D

[F1boat]

Lets hope that if the race goes ahead,that security at the track is very good

I hope so too. Why FIA is so stubborn?

[ArrowsFA1]

They have a choice of stopping this charade by their own will, if they don't then they are as responsible for the consequences as any of the Bahraini or FIA, or teams or the resident mophead.
As I've mentioned before if this was the GPDA F1 World Championship then I would agree with you. If that were the case then the drivers would be responsible for the event going ahead and would be in a position to "stop this charade" as you put it.

If this were the FOTA F1 World Championship then the teams would be responsible for the event going ahead and would be in a position to "stop this charade".

However, this is the FIA F1 World Championship and yet, as Damon Hill says (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix), "Jean Todt, the president of the FIA, has been consistent in taking the stance of not saying anything that could be construed as political. So he has said next to nothing". That is little short of an abdication of responsibility. While the FIA President remains silent his decision to go ahead with the race has placed the teams and drivers in Bahrain facing the questions and criticism he should be responding to.

[ArrowsFA1]

But apparently leaving before qualifying to watch the London marathon. How brave of him.

9:15 i've just spotted F1 boss Bernie Ecclestone for the first time this weekend. He's stayed true his word and turned up in Bahrain, wondering into the Force India garage for a quick chat.
BBC Sport - Bahrain GP practice (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17770630)

[BDunnell]

We can safely call him The Chameleon from now on.

Rather like you on Ferrari! But I digress.

How Hill, someone for whom I generally have great regard, can expect his views on Bahrain to be taken seriously having altered them so many times I have no idea. It's quite embarrassing. As one of the more self-aware former F1 drivers, I wonder whether he shares a degree of this embarrassment.

[ShiftingGears]

What majority percentage does 'Bahrain' own of McLaren may I ask? And why was this sold off quietly when such a fuss was made a couple of years ago when McLaren sort to buy the majority share back from Mercedes and succeeded in doing so? Are you sure you're not mistaken with that claim?

Mumtalakat Holding Company owns 50% of McLaren.

The politics within McLaren « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/01/04/the-politics-within-mclaren/)

[BDunnell]

If drivers are in contract renegotiation for a competitive seat, sponsors might put pressure on the teams to choose the driver who toes the corporate line, as it would be seen as less risky. If a driver was in a marginal position, I think it would have an impact. Hamilton would be an interesting case, Bahrain owns a majority of McLaren, and I daresay if they wanted to, they could order McLaren to terminate his contract.

This scenario is an interesting one, because the race would be unlikely ever to go ahead again were it to be called off, and I can't see a similar situation happening again. Therefore, a display of strong opinions on the Bahrain matter would be a one-off, and teams and sponsors wouldn't have to worry too much about them such a display occurring again.

[BDunnell]

As I've mentioned before if this was the GPDA F1 World Championship then I would agree with you. If that were the case then the drivers would be responsible for the event going ahead and would be in a position to "stop this charade" as you put it.

If this were the FOTA F1 World Championship then the teams would be responsible for the event going ahead and would be in a position to "stop this charade".

However, this is the FIA F1 World Championship and yet, as Damon Hill says (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix), "Jean Todt, the president of the FIA, has been consistent in taking the stance of not saying anything that could be construed as political. So he has said next to nothing". That is little short of an abdication of responsibility. While the FIA President remains silent his decision to go ahead with the race has placed the teams and drivers in Bahrain facing the questions and criticism he should be responding to.

This is a very good point, and one on which — contrary to what I posted above — Damon Hill's view ought to be considered seriously, because he's right. We shouldn't be surprised, though. Read accounts from last year relating to Bahrain, and it becomes clear that Todt is very supportive of a Bahrain race going ahead, not least because of the support Bahraini — i.e. regime — representatives gave him in his campaign to become FIA President.

[ArrowsFA1]

This scenario is an interesting one, because the race would be unlikely ever to go ahead again were it to be called off, and I can't see a similar situation happening again. Therefore, a display of strong opinions on the Bahrain matter would be a one-off, and teams and sponsors wouldn't have to worry too much about them such a display occurring again.
A similar situation has happened before - 1985 South African GP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_South_African_Grand_Prix)Then, as now, there was pressure on participants not to take part and Ligier & Renault did not as part of the French government's sanctions against South Africa. Then, as now, it was reported that some drivers may have been reluctant to race but did so for contractural reasons. Some sponsors removed their logos from the cars for the event.

After the event the FIA announced that F1 would not return to South Africa, but it did so in 1992.

[BDunnell]

They have a choice of stopping this charade by their own will, if they don't then they are as responsible for the consequences as any of the Bahraini or FIA, or teams or the resident mophead.

I have softened my attitude towards the drivers in recent days, I must say. It's not their fault FOM and the FIA have chosen to press on with the whole charade, after all. But, nonetheless, I have some sympathy for your view. The drivers could, theoretically, have grouped together and taken a stand, just as they did regarding safety in 1970 — forcing the move at very short notice of that year's German GP from the Nürburgring to Hockenheim while safety improvements were carried out at the former — and again in 1975 at the Spanish GP. There is, in principle, nothing stopping them. The trouble is that the corporate environment has changed so completely, placing commercial considerations at the forefront of human ones and not allowing the expression of opinions, if indeed they have them.

But let's not pretend that it's just the sportsmen of today who are so afflicted with naivety about the link between sport and politics. It shouldn't be forgotten that virtually the entire England cricket team of the time, bar Ian Botham, decided that it was acceptable to flaunt the ban on playing in South Africa under apartheid and undertook a rebel tour, ironically enough 30 years ago this March. How they didn't realise what the reaction would be back home beggars belief. This, incidentally, leads me on to a wonderful story about James Hunt, often told by Murray Walker but of which some may not be aware. The incident occurred during a commentary on a South African GP, one Walker and Hunt did from a studio in London rather than from Kyalami. The idea was, of course, that the commentary should give no clue that they weren't actually at the circuit; Walker says he would use phrases like 'I can't actually see that part of the circuit from my commentary position'. Hunt was vehemently anti-apartheid, and once during the South African race he launched into a live on-air tirade against the evils of the regime. The producer stuck a note under his nose saying 'Talk about the race', whereupon Hunt ended his comments with the words, 'Anyway, thank God we're not there.'

[BDunnell]

A similar situation has happened before - 1985 South African GP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_South_African_Grand_Prix)Then, as now, there was pressure on participants not to take part and Ligier & Renault did not as part of the French government's sanctions against South Africa.

Backed, no doubt, by the then FISA President being a very proud Frenchman.

[Knock-on]

As said time after time in this thread, such a view is, if I may say so, downright naive. What do you mean when you say this? To me, they are empty, platitudinous words. Maybe you might like to explain how sport and politics are expected not to mix. The notion is fanciful. Fact is, they do mix, and there is nothing that can be done to alter this.



So you care not one jot about human rights violations?



That's no-one's fault but your own. Don't expect others to form a view based on such ignorance. I'm sorry to sound rude, but that's what, by your own admission, you are on this subject — ignorant. This is nothing to be proud of, and I would have thought you could do better than that.



So you are in favour of an excuse being given for potentially violent protest? Rather an odd point of view to hold. And, let's face it, they had a platform without F1 — at least to those of us who keep up to date with international news and don't just happen to come across it when it involves a sport we enjoy.



By your own admission, you are ignorant of what has been happening in Bahrain. What you mean is that the Bahraini opposition has gained exposure in your eyes. Others would be well aware of the cause without F1 being involved. And what does this 'international exposure' achieve? What will the practical result be of this exposure? Earlier, you said you were pleased the UK hadn't got involved; now you are saying you hope the protesters gain an international platform. Why? So that other countries intervene? Your opinions are utterly muddled, I have to say. But given that you don't know what's been happening in Bahrain, no-one, least of all yourself, should be surprised at this.

Wow, I was going to respond to this but then i found another of your Gems further on :laugh:


I'm afraid I find your points on this ill-thought-through. Anti-government forces in Libya, Syria and Egypt managed to get their messages across without the 'benefit' of a GP taking place. The same would have been true in Bahrain too, and protests there have continued to be reported outside of the discussion relating to the F1 race — maybe not in the outlets you consume, but the coverage has been there.

Ben, I am getting sick and tired with your holier than thou attitude to anyone with a differing view. Grow up.

You say that a very serious situation in Syria, which is one of the most dangerous disturbances in the world at the moment, has been adequately publicised without F1 is irrelevant. The situation in Syria is dire and has largely bypassed people like you on this forum but you are hot footing all over the place about an on-going political disturbance in Bahrain which is more evolution rather than revolution. The death toll alone, which isn't the be all and end all by any means, stands at about 11,000 to 70 between the two countries. Now, I admitted earlier that I don't know all the answers but I bet my bottom dollar I know more about the situation on the ground than 90% of members on here. Having worked in the region, know quite a few people in the Middle East personally and probably understanding the psyche a bit better than most Westerners, I know enough about the macerations of the conflict to know that it's not that important in the great scheme of things. That's to say it may escalate but it seems to me that there is pressure in equal measures between international governments, internal protesting and dialogue between all relevant parties to progress things forward. It may not be at a pace that suits some of the protesters but it doesn't have to move at breakneck speed.

We also know that in the early stages of the dispute, the Bahrain ruling family and Government were actively discussing reform but then the protesters changed the goal post and demanded full democratic elections. Now, that might sound ideal to people in a democratic government such as we are supposed to be (i.e. the majority of the UK was behind invading Iraq, Afghanistan etc :rolleyes :) but may not be correct for all countries. Now, the full facts and reasoning behind THIS demand I am not up to speed on and hence, rather than talk out the top of my hat like some, admitted my lack of specific relevant knowledge hence opening the floodgates for Ben to dismiss my opinions as he does. I bow to the greater intellect.

You will also notice that this was when the dispute took on a violent aspect with an escalation of unprovoked attacks on the security forces with rocks and Molotov cocktails etc. This is where the majority of deaths have occurred with the security forces responding with gas, rubber bullets and I am sure on occasion live rounds. But really, 70 deaths? One madman in Norway did the same in an afternoon.

If you're going to get upset about massacres, then look at 250 Army deserters that were slaughtered in Syria 4 months ago in Idlib, look at the way 800,000people were ignored as they were slaughtered in Rwanda. Too historical for you and want something to really get your teeth into? Look at the disgrace of the Cote d'Ivory and the thousands of children slaughtered and enslaved the on-going disgrace of Burma where quite common to these genocides, murder is commonplace and weapons are rape and mutilation. What about Darfur, The Congo, Sri Lanka, Somalia. What about dangerous countries like Brazil? I don't hear much about the dangers of there and pulling F1 out. Or South Africa; The Rape Country of the world.

No, I don't know the full facts on Bahrain because it's pretty inconsequential. Largely, I don't care because it is following a predictable evolution of its political development and all the time it is, I would rather leave it to the Bahraini people, their Government and outside political and trade pressure. I am sure they will sort it out without influence from us and as long as it's safe to hold a F1 event there, and like the drivers and teams, I rely on the FIA's judgement here, I think there should be a race. The protesters will obviously use this to get maximum exposure because of the F1 GP which I'm sure the people in areas like Burma and Tibet would (literally) die for.

Ben, you may use posh words and correct grammar but before you rip anyone apart for being pragmatic and honest, perhaps you should take your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and smell coffee for a change as you are obviously quite naïve and prone to making knee jerk decisions on which headline you've read last.

[Knock-on]

The point at stake is the desire of the Bahraini people for political change — a desire that, when articulated through protest, has been violently suppressed by the same regime that is desperate to stage an F1 race, and seeks to gain legitimacy through so doing.

Again, you are ignorant of the facts. The protests were going on before the event with the protesters attacking with rocks, missiles and fire bombs which the Security services responded to. I'm not picking sides but you are again naieve if you thnk it's some poor peaceful protesters that are being beaten up by the police. Try to be objective and lose the rhetoric.

[BDunnell]

Ben, I am getting sick and tired with your holier than thou attitude to anyone with a differing view. Grow up.

Says the man so grown-up as to say he 'doesn't particularly care' about the situation in Bahrain, and so grown-up as to use the tired 'sport and politics shouldn't mix' routine in formulating his view on the subject. I happen to believe that a holier-than-thou attitude on the subject of the Bahrain GP is entirely appropriate. Nor, in this case, is it difficult given the moral vacuum in which those supporting the race seem to exist.



You say that a very serious situation in Syria, which is one of the most dangerous disturbances in the world at the moment, has been adequately publicised without F1 is irrelevant. The situation in Syria is dire and has largely bypassed people like you on this forum...

Where are all your threads expressing concern for the situation in Syria, then? And just because I haven't started one or commented on the matter doesn't mean to say I don't care what's happening there. For you to suggest otherwise is intellectually bankrupt.



The death toll alone, which isn't the be all and end all by any means, stands at about 11,000 to 70 between the two countries. Now, I admitted earlier that I don't know all the answers but I bet my bottom dollar I know more about the situation on the ground than 90% of members on here. Having worked in the region, know quite a few people in the Middle East personally and probably understanding the psyche a bit better than most Westerners, I know enough about the macerations of the conflict to know that it's not that important in the great scheme of things.

This isn't a death toll contest between different countries, as you suggest. And if you know so much about what's going on, why don't you care — your words — about the situation in Bahrain? Anyone with an ounce of humanity, which I know you have, ought to be appalled by what has gone on there no matter whether the death toll is fairly small to that wrought in other nations caught up in the 'Arab Spring'.



Having worked in the region, know quite a few people in the Middle East personally and probably understanding the psyche a bit better than most Westerners, I know enough about the macerations of the conflict to know that it's not that important in the great scheme of things. That's to say it may escalate but it seems to me that there is pressure in equal measures between international governments, internal protesting and dialogue between all relevant parties to progress things forward. It may not be at a pace that suits some of the protesters but it doesn't have to move at breakneck speed.

We also know that in the early stages of the dispute, the Bahrain ruling family and Government were actively discussing reform but then the protesters changed the goal post and demanded full democratic elections. Now, that might sound ideal to people in a democratic government such as we are supposed to be (i.e. the majority of the UK was behind invading Iraq, Afghanistan etc :rolleyes :) but may not be correct for all countries. Now, the full facts and reasoning behind THIS demand I am not up to speed on and hence, rather than talk out the top of my hat like some, admitted my lack of specific relevant knowledge hence opening the floodgates for Ben to dismiss my opinions as he does.

All these are perfectly reasonable points which maybe you should have articulated earlier, rather than apparently delighting in coming across as ignorant with your 'don't care' comment. But it does nothing to alter my view on whether a Grand Prix should take place there. Maybe you could explain why any of this has any bearing on your view?



If you're going to get upset about massacres, then look at 250 Army deserters that were slaughtered in Syria 4 months ago in Idlib, look at the way 800,000people were ignored as they were slaughtered in Rwanda. Too historical for you and want something to really get your teeth into? Look at the disgrace of the Cote d'Ivory and the thousands of children slaughtered and enslaved the on-going disgrace of Burma where quite common to these genocides, murder is commonplace and weapons are rape and mutilation. What about Darfur, The Congo, Sri Lanka, Somalia. What about dangerous countries like Brazil? I don't hear much about the dangers of there and pulling F1 out. Or South Africa; The Rape Country of the world.

Well, Brazil we've already discussed. It's a very different situation. And what does the rest of your list of horrors have to do with the subject in hand, other than making us aware that you've heard of all these atrocities? If it's a suggestion that, because I haven't mentioned them, I somehow don't care about them — well, again, your reasoning is faulty.



No, I don't know the full facts on Bahrain because it's pretty inconsequential.

Which is it — you do know more than the rest of us, or indeed those in the wider world who don't believe it's acceptable to hold a race there, or you don't?



I rely on the FIA's judgement here

Why do you set such store by its judgement? The reports coming out of Bahrain at present are at odds with the judgement reached by the FIA after its consultation with the Bahraini authorities — surprise, surprise.



Ben, you may use posh words and correct grammar but before you rip anyone apart for being pragmatic and honest, perhaps you should take your head out of where the sun doesn't shine and smell coffee for a change as you are obviously quite naïve and prone to making knee jerk decisions on which headline you've read last.

I don't believe your view is pragmatic and honest, even though you may wish to think it is. On the matter of whether an F1 race should take place in Bahrain, I think it is simply wrong.

[BDunnell]

Again, you are ignorant of the facts. The protests were going on before the event with the protesters attacking with rocks, missiles and fire bombs which the Security services responded to. I'm not picking sides but you are again naieve if you thnk it's some poor peaceful protesters that are being beaten up by the police. Try to be objective and lose the rhetoric.

No, you are the misguided one here. There have been many reports of peaceful protests being broken up using violence on the part of Bahraini security forces, and of those involved in peaceful protests being subjected to violence in custody. Are you able to prove that these are inaccurate?

[pino]

Lets cool down guys and continue this nicely... as we did so far thank you :)

[Dave B]

Rather like you on Ferrari! But I digress.
:laugh: Says the dyed-in-the-wool Ferrari fan who suddenly turned his back on them. But anyway...

[Dave B]

Force India have said they are considering not running, or running only a limited programme, in FP2 later today due to security fears. They met with Ecclestone earlier, and have said that they are "keen" to take part in the race, but I wonder if we'll see them pull out of the event.

Just to add, I wonder if we're about to see an "Michelin-gate" situation unfold, where all the teams will do a token amount of running then get the hell out of Dodge. :dozey:

[ArrowsFA1]

Force India has confirmed to AUTOSPORT that it is considering pulling out of second practice for the Bahrain GP, or running a limited programme, on safety grounds.
Force India considering skipping FP2 in Bahrain amid safety fears - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98982)


Force India's consideration of cutting track time in P2 proves that the teams do not have full faith in FIA's safety assurances.
https://twitter.com/#!/eddstrawF1/status/193267923559788544


The FIA won't comment on Force India's situation. Reminder of the FIA's official position here FIA FORMULA ONE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP - BAHRAIN GRAND PRIX (http://t.co/JeAIQi7h)
https://twitter.com/#!/eddstrawF1/status/193271039147515904

[Dave B]

To add to the FI story, they're apparently keen to leave the area before sundown.

SkySportsF1 (http://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=SkySportsF1)
Bob Fernley on @skysportsnews (http://twitter.com/skysportsnews)
confirms that Force India will leave before dark and will look at data before deciding if to run in FP2 at all
11 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/193272639324827648) · reply (http://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=193272639324827648) · retweet (http://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=193272639324827648) · favorite (http://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=193272639324827648)

SkySportsF1 (http://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=SkySportsF1)
Fernley: ' We'll do what our crew are comfortable with and that's leaving in daylight. It's a decision based on emotion rather than logic.
8 minutes ago (http://twitter.com/SkySportsF1/status/193273566060494848) · reply (http://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=193273566060494848) · retweet (http://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=193273566060494848) · favorite (http://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=193273566060494848)

ianparkesf1 (http://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=ianparkesf1)
Fernley on FP2 rnning: "It's possible we may not run at all, or just do half a session or whatever it is."
16 seconds ago (http://twitter.com/ianparkesf1/status/193275579661955072) · reply (http://twitter.com/intent/tweet?in_reply_to=193275579661955072) · retweet (http://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=193275579661955072) · favorite (http://twitter.com/intent/favorite?tweet_id=193275579661955072)

[ArrowsFA1]

A key passage in the FIA's statement is:
...the FIA ensures that any event forming part of an FIA World Championship is organised in compliance with the FIA Statutes and the relevant Sporting and Technical Regulations and that the safety of the public, officials, drivers and teams is secured at all times during an event.

[F1boat]

Again, you are ignorant of the facts. The protests were going on before the event with the protesters attacking with rocks, missiles and fire bombs which the Security services responded to. I'm not picking sides but you are again naieve if you thnk it's some poor peaceful protesters that are being beaten up by the police. Try to be objective and lose the rhetoric.

I agree. The last time a Shi'a mob overrun their monarchy, the ayatollahs came. I disapprove of violence used against citizens - but if you go with Molotov cocktails to protest, you invite the action of the security forces.

[Knock-on]

I agree. The last time a Shi'a mob overrun their monarchy, the ayatollahs came. I disapprove of violence used against citizens - but if you go with Molotov cocktails to protest, you invite the action of the security forces.

The point where protesting becomes an aggressive force. Sometimes there is no choice but I feel on this occassion it's secondary and hope it stays so.

[Knock-on]

Says the man so grown-up as to say he 'doesn't particularly care' about the situation in Bahrain, and so grown-up as to use the tired 'sport and politics shouldn't mix' routine in formulating his view on the subject. I happen to believe that a holier-than-thou attitude on the subject of the Bahrain GP is entirely appropriate. Nor, in this case, is it difficult given the moral vacuum in which those supporting the race seem to exist.

Wether you believe I am immature is as consequential as my view on Bahrain. I don't really care because I understand the situation. It's not my fight and is pretty inconsequential in the great scheme of things. I maintain an interest in it but if I really cared about it, I would do something about it rather than sitting on my ass and moaning about what is, when you look at the facts, really a regional skirmish that is perfectly possible for the Bahrain people to resolve internally. Now, you claim I am a moral vacuum for believing a race should not be held to ransom in this way but otherwise, you risk bringing other F1 events into potential risk. As soon as political extremists know F1 is for ransom, then you make it a target. If the FIA say the event is safe I hope they are correct.




Where are all your threads expressing concern for the situation in Syria, then? And just because I haven't started one or commented on the matter doesn't mean to say I don't care what's happening there. For you to suggest otherwise is intellectually bankrupt.

You were the person that compared Syria to the situation in Bahrain. This comparison is obviously spurious. I have on occasions, in the appropriate forum, discussed several situations that are relevant to me but I am by no means one of the bleeding hearts, looking for outrage and injustice to get upset about so perhaps don't post as much as you on these subjects. I prefer to comment when I know what I'm talking about instead.




This isn't a death toll contest between different countries, as you suggest. And if you know so much about what's going on, why don't you care — your words — about the situation in Bahrain? Anyone with an ounce of humanity, which I know you have, ought to be appalled by what has gone on there no matter whether the death toll is fairly small to that wrought in other nations caught up in the 'Arab Spring'.

I do not [b]suggest[/] it is a contest as you claim. Again this is spurious. I merely pointed out that the situation in Bahrain is pretty inconsequential compared to serious conflicts around the world. As for my humanity :laugh: Dear oh dear. Can you change every injustice Ben, do you feel outraged by every needless death? I'm afraid I wouldn't have any time to live my life if I did so I guess I'm a bad person that is living in a moral vacuum.



[quote:1bigcueo]All these are perfectly reasonable points

Of course :p


... which maybe you should have articulated earlier, rather than apparently delighting in coming across as ignorant with your 'don't care' comment. But it does nothing to alter my view on whether a Grand Prix should take place there. Maybe you could explain why any of this has any bearing on your view?

I believe I have. The situation is quite inconsequential, the violence is minor, the death toll is regrettable but hardly a crisis and the FIA have conducted a survey where they believe the teams, fans and personnel are safe. By withdrawing the race because of a potential of violence by a group of protestors with a political agenda increases the potential for this to happen at other events which is why I hold the 'outdated' view that politics and sport should not mix.



Well, Brazil we've already discussed. It's a very different situation. And what does the rest of your list of horrors have to do with the subject in hand, other than making us aware that you've heard of all these atrocities? If it's a suggestion that, because I haven't mentioned them, I somehow don't care about them — well, again, your reasoning is faulty.[quote:1bigcueo]

Again Ben, you are drawing conclusion on 'facts' you have made up. You were the one that began comparing this event to other major middle east uprising and questioning whether I was living in a moral Vacuum. I merely expanded your analogy to better qualify the Bahrain situation against some real dire events occurring around the world. I am sure you will be just as outspoken and ill-informed about these given the chance but I would never accuse you of not caring. I believe you do in your way.



[quote:1bigcueo]Which is it — you do know more than the rest of us, or indeed those in the wider world who don't believe it's acceptable to hold a race there, or you don't?

I have answered this already. Please requalify the question if you wish further explanation.



Why do you set such store by its judgement? The reports coming out of Bahrain at present are at odds with the judgement reached by the FIA after its consultation with the Bahraini authorities — surprise, surprise.

I hope its judgement is valid because unlike you armchair enthusiasts, my safety for weeks a year can rest with their decisions in matters like this. I might have been in Bahrain for this event and may well be next year so rather than spouting hot air, I have a real vested interest in events and am not prepared to expand on this for obvious reasons.




I don't believe your view is pragmatic and honest, even though you may wish to think it is. On the matter of whether an F1 race should take place in Bahrain, I think it is simply wrong.[/quote:1bigcueo][/quote:1bigcueo][/quote:1bigcueo]

I appreciate your view and although I think you are wrong, you are entitled to it.

[Knock-on]

No, you are the misguided one here. There have been many reports of peaceful protests being broken up using violence on the part of Bahraini security forces, and of those involved in peaceful protests being subjected to violence in custody. Are you able to prove that these are inaccurate?

I have no independant verification one way or the other apart from what is on the Net. All we know is what is released in the newspapers or viral vidoes which at the moment, has as much credability as statements from the Bahrain ruling party. Sorry Ben but I refuse to be misguided by unsubstantiated reports. They may very well be real and there is a good chance that some are but we are hardly being objective or thinking critically are we?

What I suggest is you apply a bit of logic first.

Critical thinking - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking)

Then lets look at what evidence we have, what opinions, what can be independently corroborated, the political or economic motivation of all parties and then compare it to the facts at hand.

May I suggest you start here

http://files.bici.org.bh/BICIreportEN.pdf

Although it was commissioned by the King, it is independently verified and even if it doesn't go as far as naming security perpetrators, at least isn't a whitewash.

It details some of the mistakes but also puts right some of the false claims. If you really want to find out about the history of the current unrest, it's a good place to start rather than reading the media.

Hardly the actions of a complete ruthless oppressive state.

[Dave B]

I have no independant verification one way or the other apart from what is on the Net. All we know is what is released in the newspapers or viral vidoes which at the moment, has as much credability as statements from the Bahrain ruling party. Sorry Ben but I refuse to be misguided by unsubstantiated reports.
I see your point but apply Occam's razor: there have been so many independent reports and videos that it's virtually unthinkable that there's no police violence. Respectable news organisations like Reuters, AP and the BBC have witnessed it, as well as the YouTube clips uploaded by protesters themselves. One can argue whether the protesters are right or wrong, that's a separate issue, but it can't really be disputed that the police are doing a good job of making the Met look like a model of good behaviour.

Even Damon Hill (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix) agrees:


A problem in the lead-up to this event was the apparent collusion of Formula One with the promoters in promulgating the view that Bahrain only had a small issue with a few unruly youths. This I regarded as a very clear case of understatement. It was the view of Bahrain that Bahrain would like the world to buy.

[Dave B]

I make no comment on this other than to provide a link so that you can read Damon Hill's opinion in his own words:

Bahrain Grand Prix should go on but the sport needs to look at itself | Damon Hill | Sport | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2012/apr/19/damon-hill-bahrain-grand-prix)

[Knock-on]

Totally agree Dave. They have been heavy handed in the exterrm and there have been many deaths that are attributable to their mistakes. However, yet again, I temper that with the extent of these deaths over the last 14 months. There has been considerable protesting and civil disturbances yet very few deaths. There has also been violation of human rights and torture which was acknowledged in a report commissioned by the King of Bahrain.

Does this sound like a Tyrant or someone that knows things got out of hand and is looking for a way to evolve his country. Would it be right to throw it into turmoil, immediatly offer democratic power to any party that gan generate enough votes (in any way it sees fit) and turn the economy upside down. Blimey, we will end up with George Galloway in Bahrain instead of Bradford :)

[SGWilko]

where the sun doesn't shine

I see you've been to the Outer Hebredes too?! :laugh:

[Malbec]

I agree. The last time a Shi'a mob overrun their monarchy, the ayatollahs came. I disapprove of violence used against citizens - but if you go with Molotov cocktails to protest, you invite the action of the security forces.

Except the Shias in this case are asking for the monarchy to stay, with an elected prime minister as opposed to an unelected one as they have now.

Knock-on, I think your posts reflect that you simply aren't tracking whats been going on in Bahrain. While you are right that there was an independent inquiry as to what happened last year you've decided to ignore that no substantial reforms have taken place to ensure those events won't happen again. Instead Shias have been removed from most key positions in state organisations and replaced by willing replacements from places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UK. Where is the dialogue?

Anyway FI weren't the only team to have trouble:

Bahrain's 'days of rage' - live updates | World news | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/20/syria-crisis-bahrain-unrest-live)

FI itself encountered further problems while Sauber and another team had incidents last night too.

Clearly security IS an issue so even ignoring the political situation the race should have been called off on those grounds alone.

[SGWilko]

I agree. The last time a Shi'a mob overrun their monarchy, the ayatollahs came. I disapprove of violence used against citizens - but if you go with Molotov cocktails to protest, you invite the action of the security forces.

I tried that angle, but I was shouted down, the poster in question effectively justifying the protestors use of violence if you please.

Again however, I will point out that the FIA are bound by their ststutes to be politically neutral, the Bahrain rulers and the protestors however ought to use the opportunity for peacefully getting their message across.

[BDunnell]

I have no independant verification one way or the other apart from what is on the Net. All we know is what is released in the newspapers or viral vidoes which at the moment, has as much credability as statements from the Bahrain ruling party. Sorry Ben but I refuse to be misguided by unsubstantiated reports. They may very well be real and there is a good chance that some are but we are hardly being objective or thinking critically are we?

I think I am, and stand by everything I've said both about the situation in Bahrain and your assessment for it. In general, I tend not to take seriously the views of anyone whose first comment on such a matter is one along the lines of 'don't care'. Hardly the analysis of an expert.

[BDunnell]

I tried that angle, but I was shouted down, the poster in question effectively justifying the protestors use of violence if you please.

It is simplistic to suggest that we should apply our own view of how protest should be to a popular uprising. How far would they have got in Libya without using violence against the regime's forces?

[BDunnell]

They have been heavy handed in the exterrm and there have been many deaths that are attributable to their mistakes.

Why is this not a matter for concern?


However, yet again, I temper that with the extent of these deaths over the last 14 months. There has been considerable protesting and civil disturbances yet very few deaths.

As I said, this isn't a competition. Nor should concern be proportional to the numbers of deaths.



Does this sound like a Tyrant or someone that knows things got out of hand and is looking for a way to evolve his country.

Respectfully, I simply don't share this view of a benevolent ruler that you and the likes of Jackie Stewart seem desperate to get across. This, surely, is what he would like you to believe?

[Knock-on]

Except the Shias in this case are asking for the monarchy to stay, with an elected prime minister as opposed to an unelected one as they have now.

Except they want the King to relinquish control and maintain a ceramonial role like our own Monach while the Government is Shia run with potential input from Iran :s There is still some dispute amongst some Iranian and Shia politicians over the soverienty of Bahrain.


Knock-on, I think your posts reflect that you simply aren't tracking whats been going on in Bahrain. While you are right that there was an independent inquiry as to what happened last year you've decided to ignore that no substantial reforms have taken place to ensure those events won't happen again. Instead Shias have been removed from most key positions in state organisations and replaced by willing replacements from places like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and the UK. Where is the dialogue?

I can't cover the whole situation in one post and was trying to help Ben get up to speed with the background and reference material that is around and can be verified.

Anyway Malbec, looking pragmatically at the situation, do you think it's a case of major concern and comparable to the situation in Syria. I don't and think that Bahrain is going through a pretty settled transformation compared to other countries. That's why I don't really care about it. It's taking care of itself pretty much. If people want to get upset about things, they should care about some other countries and not this one IMHO. However, that makes me a moral vacuum and leaves my views irrelevant to this discussion according to some people :laugh:

[SGWilko]

Individually, you, I or any any other Forum member can do nothing about what is happening in Bahrain except for refusing to watch or attend the race, should that be one's desire.

You can talk till the cows come home about who is wrong, right or otherwise. In the meantime, there will still be a hole in my butt, the sun will rise in the morning, and the situation in Bahrain will continue on its course until one party gives.

I care that lives are being lost, I also care very much that my parents are getting old and will one day die - I can't do Jack about it though, so why lose any sleep over it?

[Dave B]

Totally agree Dave. They have been heavy handed in the exterrm and there have been many deaths that are attributable to their mistakes. However, yet again, I temper that with the extent of these deaths over the last 14 months.
This isn't like the London riots where the police response was (at best) botched; there's evidence that security forces cleared entire communities on the basis that they might pose a theoretical threat. I don't think you can call those deliberate actions "mistakes".


Does this sound like a Tyrant or someone that knows things got out of hand and is looking for a way to evolve his country.
It sounds like a tyrant. One who wishes to avoid the fate that befell other rulers in the region, and one who is desperate to keep the west on side, but a tyrant none the less.


Blimey, we will end up with George Galloway in Bahrain instead of Bradford :)
Wouldn't surprise me. Galloway does whatever's best for Galloway, not the people he purports to represent. Let him go, nobody would miss him!

[BDunnell]

Individually, you, I or any any other Forum member can do nothing about what is happening in Bahrain except for refusing to watch or attend the race, should that be one's desire.

You can talk till the cows come home about who is wrong, right or otherwise. In the meantime, there will still be a hole in my butt, the sun will rise in the morning, and the situation in Bahrain will continue on its course until one party gives.

I care that lives are being lost, I also care very much that my parents are getting old and will one day die - I can't do Jack about it though, so why lose any sleep over it?

I'm glad not everyone thinks that way.

[SGWilko]

I'm glad not everyone thinks that way.

What are you doing about Bahrain Ben exactly, that's going to make a difference?

[BDunnell]

Wouldn't surprise me. Galloway does whatever's best for Galloway, not the people he purports to represent. Let him go, nobody would miss him!

He may be an appalling self-publicist and an egotist of the first order, but seeing him on Question Time last night — as much as it pains me to say it — I was grateful for the presence of a politician with a bit of genuine fire about them, and he has always been right about Iraq and Afghanistan, the two issues that most underpin his campaigning. It's just a shame it has to be him articulating these views. But I digress.

[BDunnell]

What are you doing about Bahrain Ben exactly, that's going to make a difference?

Nowhere did I say I was doing anything. My comment was aimed more generally. I find your stance rather blasé, and am happy that there are many people who do attempt to make a difference even when their efforts might, to the likes of you (and sometimes I), seem pointless.

[SGWilko]

Nowhere did I say I was doing anything. My comment was aimed more generally. I find your stance rather blasé, and am happy that there are many people who do attempt to make a difference even when their efforts might, to the likes of you (and sometimes I), seem pointless.

Oh, I see......

Occupying the moral high ground then?

[Malbec]

Except they want the King to relinquish control and maintain a ceramonial role like our own Monach while the Government is Shia run with potential input from Iran :s There is still some dispute amongst some Iranian and Shia politicians over the soverienty of Bahrain.

If the elected government becomes Shia run that would be because Shias form the majority of the population there.

Democracy is a bitch isn't it?


Anyway Malbec, looking pragmatically at the situation, do you think it's a case of major concern and comparable to the situation in Syria. I don't and think that Bahrain is going through a pretty settled transformation compared to other countries. That's why I don't really care about it. It's taking care of itself pretty much. If people want to get upset about things, they should care about some other countries and not this one IMHO. However, that makes me a moral vacuum and leaves my views irrelevant to this discussion according to some people :laugh:

A pretty settled transformation?

Exactly what is Bahrain transforming itself into?

List clearly the political reforms that have taken place as a result of whats happened over the last two years.

Actually I'll save you time. The only transformation is that the government and opposition have both taken up more hardline positions and there is increasing recourse to violence on both sides. Oh, and Shias are being purged from positions of power and security.

The picture you paint of a benign dictatorship willingly going through reforms as a result of protests has no factual basis.

As for the comparison with Syria, there has been roughly 1/3 the number of deaths per head of indigenous population in Bahrain compared to Syria. Given that the Syrians are using infantry, tanks, helicopter gunships and artillery you'd have to admit that the security forces in Bahrain have done pretty well to get their kill score up that high with the weapons they are using.

[BDunnell]

Oh, I see......

Occupying the moral high ground then?

Read it again. I said that, sometimes, such efforts seem pointless to me, too. But that doesn't stop me appreciating the fact that others attempt to make a difference.

[BDunnell]

Anyway Malbec, looking pragmatically at the situation, do you think it's a case of major concern and comparable to the situation in Syria. I don't and think that Bahrain is going through a pretty settled transformation compared to other countries.

Why are you only able to apply your concern to one country at a time, based on body count?

[BDunnell]

The picture you paint of a benign dictatorship willingly going through reforms as a result of protests has no factual basis.

What I find worrying in this debate is that some seem willing to give more credence to the claims of the Bahraini regime than they would to politicians in their own country. Why is this?

[SGWilko]

What I find worrying in this debate is that some seem willing to give more credence to their own opinions in respect of the Bahraini regime than they would to my opinion. Why is this?

[SGWilko]

What I find worrying in this debate is that some seem willing to give more credence to their own opinions in respect of the Bahraini regime than they would to my opinion. Why is this?

Well Mr WIlkinson, I can answer that for you sir;

Everyone has a different opinion. An opinion is given on the perception of a set of events that the owner of said opinions has read, witnessed, been written about etc........

Just because we all have differing opinions does not mean we are more or less right or wrong, we just see things differently dear boy.

[SGWilko]

Well Mr WIlkinson, I can answer that for you sir;

Everyone has a different opinion. An opinion is given on the perception of a set of events that the owner of said opinions has read, witnessed, been written about etc........

Just because we all have differing opinions does not mean we are more or less right or wrong, we just see things differently dear boy.

Cheers for that.

[SGWilko]

Meanwhile, hundreds have died because they are unable to eat or drink.

[Dave B]

A couple of worrying tweets in the last few minutes:

Kevin Eason ‏ @easonF1
Verification is needed but seems escalation in #Bahrain is rapid and potentially dangerous. Fingers crossed


Sky News Newsdesk ‏ @SkyNewsBreak
Reuters: Pro-democracy protesters hurl petrol bombs, police fire tear gas in clashes in Bahrain

:s

[Mark]

It was the main item on the BBC Six O'Clock News

[fandango]

The idea that the F1 race can unify the country is clearly mistaken. Because the government are holding up the race as a trophy, as a unifying force, they are dragging F1 into politics, and Jean Todt and Bernie Ecclestone are clearly out of their depth. They should have steered well clear of this mess, and that's when you look at it from the selfish perspective of F1. The race has been allowed to become part of a conflict. I think I'm going to sit this one out.

[Nikki Katz]

I really can't believe that this is going ahead. There's probably no point in cancelling it now though, too far into it.

[fandango]

Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad Al Khalifa, who owns the rights to the event, told reporters that the race should go ahead Sunday.

"I genuinely believe this race is a force for good, it unites many people from many different religious backgrounds, sects and ethnicities."

Reports on Al Jazeera and Twitter suggest otherwise....

Thousands of Bahrain F1 protesters dispersed - Middle East - Al Jazeera English (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/04/20124201553269713.html)

[ArrowsFA1]

"I genuinely believe this race is a force for good, it unites many people from many different religious backgrounds, sects and ethnicities."
I'm sure that's the impression he would like to give to the world. Politicians like to "unite" people, it gives the impression that (to coin a familiar phrase here in the UK) 'we're all in this together'. The problem, in F1 terms, is that this is a sporting event not a political rally. The FIA, whose responsibility it is to ensure it is the former, have allowed it to become the latter.

[Alfa Fan]

I can't help but want something bad to happen this weekend. It's clear F1 shouldn't be there, but words aren't making any difference at the moment. I don't mean something bad as in people being killed or whatever, obviously not I hope, I mean something that humiliates Formula 1 and all those involved. A circuit invasion pre race by pro-democracy protesters or something along those lines. Taking F1 to Bahrain has always obviously been the wrong decision, and I just hope those who made are made to pay for it.

[christophulus]

Wrong decision to go, the country is trying to show that everything is normal by hosting F1. It is quite clear to the rest of the world that things are not OK in Bahrain.

I won't be watching the race this weekend, for the first time in around ten years.

[gloomyDAY]

http://i.imgur.com/871jV.jpg

[Bagwan]

It has been suggested in some of the reports that a number of people are going to enter as fans , and return to being protestors once inside the perimeter .
If the race starts , I don't think it will get to the half-way point , before they have to stop it .

I am now thinking of watching , where before I was sure it wouldn't get this far .
It will be a historic event to see .
It will be a shaming for F1 , and for the Bahraini rulers .

[wedge]

Taking F1 to Bahrain has always obviously been the wrong decision, and I just hope those who made are made to pay for it.

Can't help but think Bernie is playing a very dangerous game of Russian Roullette.

[ShiftingGears]

A few media gems:

Ecclestone unmoved by safety concerns in Bahrain as Force India pulls out of practice - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98991)

Gulf Daily News » Local News » Amnesty report on Bahrain 'outdated' (http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyid=328456)

Gulf Daily News » Local News » F1 fun for fans... (http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyid=328451)

So there you go. All sunshine and puppies.

Edit: Interestingly, I heard from an unverified source that cameramen covering the grand prix were given stickers to be placed on their cameras so that the police don't shoot them. No idea if that is true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

[Tazio]

Gulf Daily News » Local News » F1 fun for fans... (http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyid=328451)



BIC officials had earlier said they would have foolproof security in place for the event.
I'm not suggesting that anything will go boom in the facility but unless they do cavity searches on everyone that enters they can’t be sure. What is going to stop a group of infiltrators from bump-rushing the track short of live ammunition? I dare say their security can't be foolproof.

[F1boat]

I can't help but want something bad to happen this weekend. It's clear F1 shouldn't be there, but words aren't making any difference at the moment.

I hope that everything will be normal. I am afraid from the protesters. I don't think that they are very peaceful. I won't be surprised if they try to hurt the F1 crew.
F1 should have never went to a country in war!

[TMorel]

Edit: Interestingly, I heard from an unverified source that cameramen covering the grand prix were given stickers to be placed on their cameras so that the police don't shoot them. No idea if that is true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Last month, although a different country, the border police decided I was a journalist cameraman as opposed to a movie cameraman. A very frightening time. Much respect to the all the behind the scenes people that go to put on our show that might not get the recognition and more importantly safety/support that the drivers and teams get.

[ioan]

http://i.imgur.com/871jV.jpg

This is the image of F1 now and Bernie, the FIA, the teams and the drivers are all fine with it. :down:

[Alfa Fan]

BBC News - Bahrain: 'Man shot dead' in protest ahead of Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17796833)

Does this change anything?

[Dave B]

Does this change anything?
Probably not at this late stage. I get the impression that short of all-out war the race is destined to go ahead, rightly or wrongly.

[Garry Walker]

BBC News - Bahrain: 'Man shot dead' in protest ahead of Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17796833)

Does this change anything?

Why should it? Is that the first death on a GP weekend in the place where they are?

[ioan]

BBC News - Bahrain: 'Man shot dead' in protest ahead of Grand Prix (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17796833)

Does this change anything?

Nope, F1 has already decided that it's fine to be tainted with the blood of the protesters.
:down: Ecclestone
:down: FIA
:down: F1 Teams
:down: F1 drivers

[ioan]

:down: Jean Todt is a bigger disgrace then Mosley ever was, with all his scandals combined:

Jean Todt says majority of Bahrainis are in favour of Formula 1 race - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99035)

[Bagwan]

So , we have fifty or so people injured , mostly by shotgun birdshot , and one dead in the run up to the race , so far .
Nice .

And , we have allegations that , in response to the non-appearance of Force India in FP2 , they were not seen even once in the footage of qualifying .
These people were clearly afraid , on a Friday night after the local prayer time , to leave thier hotel , after being involved in a near-miss molotov cocktail incident ..... and were duly punished for thier insolence .

Un-frigging-believeable .

[ioan]

People get shot in a protest against the F1 race taking place!
What does the FIA, BE, F1 teams and drivers? Nothing! They keep saying all is fine and backhand punishing the one team that slightly stepped out of the line.

I'm looking forward to the next time when any of these morons will talk about charity events. Bunch of disgusting mindless millionaires.

[wedge]

Last month, although a different country, the border police decided I was a journalist cameraman as opposed to a movie cameraman. A very frightening time. Much respect to the all the behind the scenes people that go to put on our show that might not get the recognition and more importantly safety/support that the drivers and teams get.

:up:

I was meaning to bring up this point. The media are just as culpable in this controversy. The production teams and front men/women - I suppose war journalism was the last thing on their minds when they signed up.

[Dave B]

:up:

I was meaning to bring up this point. The media are just as culpable in this controversy. The production teams and front men/women - I suppose war journalism was the last thing on their minds when they signed up.
Why are they culpable? Unless they're making stuff up (and I'm looking at whoever at theDaily Express decided there were 40,000 protesters when every other source reckoned 10,000) why shouldn't they do their job? Were they supposed to pretend nothing was happening?

[Bagwan]

Reports are coming out that the servers at the track will be targetted by the same hacker group that took down some websites , F1.com included , yesterday .
They cannot run the race without them .
This is not just a threat to the teams , who may not have all the gizmos with which to race , but also to the world feed .
That's a catastrophe , to not have any coverage would paint a smile on a lot of lawyer's faces .

Judging from the empty stands , it won't be an easy task for any infiltrators to get in in such a rarified atmosphere , using tickets at the gate .

So , it looks like there could possibly still be a race , but it may be that nobody will see it .

[anthonyvop]

Funny how most of the people who are against the race in Bahrain due to "Human Rights" concerns had no problem with a race in China.

http://chinalawandpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/china_human_rights.jpg


Human Rights in China
The Chinese Communist Party governs China as an authoritarian, one-party state. The Party sharply curbs freedom of expression, association, and religion. It equates criticism of the Party with “subversion” and rejects judicial independence and media freedom. The Party also extensively censors the Internet and maintains highly repressive policies in the ethnic minority regions of Tibet and Xinjiang. Chinese citizens have become more and more rights-conscious and increasingly challenge official abuses including, land seizures, forced evictions, and corruption. A small rights defense (weiquan) movement persists despite risks including surveillance, detention, arrest, enforced disappearance, and torture. The Chinese government's growing global influence also poses increasing challenges to key international human rights norms and institutions.

China and Tibet (http://www.hrw.org/asia/china)

[SGWilko]

Funny how most of the people who are against the race in Bahrain due to "Human Rights" concerns had no problem with a race in China.

http://chinalawandpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/china_human_rights.jpg



China and Tibet (http://www.hrw.org/asia/china)

My dear poster, someone will be along shortly to dismiss this, and point you to some 'more eloquent' posts earlier in this thread as to why that does not and should not matter vis a vis the race in China.....

[BDunnell]

My dear poster, someone will be along shortly to dismiss this, and point you to some 'more eloquent' posts earlier in this thread as to why that does not and should not matter vis a vis the race in China.....

I'm not going to bother, since such a legitimate comment would be ignored by those who choose so to do.

[BDunnell]

People get shot in a protest against the F1 race taking place!
What does the FIA, BE, F1 teams and drivers? Nothing! They keep saying all is fine and backhand punishing the one team that slightly stepped out of the line.

Why should we be surprised at this, given that many a 'fan' couldn't care less either and can do no better than come up with empty analogies relating to Brazil and China?

[SGWilko]

Reports are coming out that the servers at the track will be targetted by the same hacker group that took down some websites , F1.com included , yesterday .
They cannot run the race without them .
This is not just a threat to the teams , who may not have all the gizmos with which to race , but also to the world feed .
That's a catastrophe , to not have any coverage would paint a smile on a lot of lawyer's faces .

Judging from the empty stands , it won't be an easy task for any infiltrators to get in in such a rarified atmosphere , using tickets at the gate .

So , it looks like there could possibly still be a race , but it may be that nobody will see it .

Perhaps FOM's server security is provided by HBGary and Anonymous are not done with them yet?

[ArrowsFA1]

Ross Brawn has urged Formula 1 to make time for quiet reflection about the decision to go ahead with the Bahrain Grand Prix, on the back of the troubles experienced this weekend.
Ross Brawn urges F1 to reflect on decision to race in Bahrain - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99063)

[ioan]

Funny how most of the people who are against the race in Bahrain due to "Human Rights" concerns had no problem with a race in China.

http://chinalawandpolicy.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/china_human_rights.jpg



China and Tibet (http://www.hrw.org/asia/china)

Then I wonder why are we trying to have a race in the US after all, given that you guys are at war with several nations?!
Got a mirror? Use it!

[ioan]

Ross Brawn urges F1 to reflect on decision to race in Bahrain - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99063)

Too little, too late.
Once the fact is consumed they will all be against the race they have just run. Despicable human beings.

[anthonyvop]

Then I wonder why are we trying to have a race in the US after all, given that you guys are at war with several nations?!
Got a mirror? Use it!

Seriously?

Moral relativism?

I thought you would be capable of something better. I guess I was wrong.

[ioan]

Why should we be surprised at this, given that many a 'fan' couldn't care less either and can do no better than come up with empty analogies relating to Brazil and China?

You're right, in today's society nothing should come as a shock anymore. The only thing that matters is one's own well being, the rest can die a slow and painful death as long as one's individual is not affected by it.

[ioan]

Seriously?

Moral relativism?

I thought you would be capable of something better. I guess I was wrong.

What exactly are you talking about? maybe we should agree about the subject before you start posting?

[BDunnell]

Ross Brawn urges F1 to reflect on decision to race in Bahrain - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/99063)

And what good does he think this will do now?

I should say, by the way, that I find it difficult to imagine that such a clever and thoughtful man as Ross Brawn would not have had serious doubts about the whole enterprise.

[BDunnell]

Seriously?

Moral relativism?

I thought you would be capable of something better. I guess I was wrong.

Tell me, were you in favour of the US boycotting the Moscow Olympics?

[ioan]

Tell me, were you in favour of the US boycotting the Moscow Olympics?

I doubt he was even born back then.

[anthonyvop]

What exactly are you talking about? maybe we should agree about the subject before you start posting?


You are the one comparing a free democracy like the USA which is defending itself after being attacked with the Oppressive regime of China where literally millions of people are political prisoners.

[anthonyvop]

Tell me, were you in favour of the US boycotting the Moscow Olympics?

Yes. But not because of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

I was opposed of the Olympics being held in a country under the yoke of a Murderous Dictatorship just like I was opposed to the Bejing Olympics.

I suppose you were in favor of holding the Olympics in the USSR and felt it was a great opportunity for a chance to prove how the Soviets were a peaceful regime and just wanted a group hug.

[ioan]

You are the one comparing a free democracy like the USA ...

Keep dreaming.

[Tazio]

vivid televised images of streets ablaze threaten to embarrass Formula One and the global brands that lavish it with sponsorship.

"The government are using the Formula One race to serve their PR campaign," said rights activist Nabeel Rajab. "It's not turning out the way they wanted."

Reuters journalists in Diraz near the capital Manama said police tried to move protesters off a roundabout by firing tear gas. Demonstrators hurled Molotov cocktails back.
F1: Protests, clashes, death cast pall over Bahrain Grand Prix | GMA News Online | The Go-To Site for Filipinos Everywhere (http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/255780/sports/motorsports/f1-protests-clashes-death-cast-pall-over-bahrain-grand-prix)

The violence seems to be ramping up. Not only is this a matter of grave human carnage, it is a real balck eye for F1

[anthonyvop]

Keep dreaming.

Whatever dude.

[gloomyDAY]

Wow! Guy gets killed by the government during a protest and the F1 monkeys are saying, "It's okay. Nothing has happened today."


Keep dreaming.As much as it pains me to admit, you're right.

NDAA & CISPA. 'nuff said!

[Mark]

I wondered how many would have to die for this race. Now we know it's at least one.

[Mark]

BTW This thread is about Bahrain. It is NOT other opportunity for USA vs the rest.

[F1boat]

I hope that all of this will make F1 to be more careful when staging Grand Prix races in the future. To be in a country which is close to civil war is ridiculous. Hopefully there would be no more accidents till the end of the weekend. I hope for a fast, trouble-free race and then the crew must leave immediately.

[SGWilko]

I wondered how many would have to die for this race. Now we know it's at least one.

Are the deaths for the race, or for the peoples' struggle for freedom? Have people died in Bahrain when the race was not on????? What about deaths in Sri Lanka or the like, should the F1 community have a voice about that?

[SGWilko]

A reflection « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/a-reflection/#comments)

Been 'had' by the establishment, or telling it how it is? You decide, but first, here's our Graham with a summary chuck.....

[BDunnell]

Yes. But not because of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

I was opposed of the Olympics being held in a country under the yoke of a Murderous Dictatorship just like I was opposed to the Bejing Olympics.

I suppose you were in favor of holding the Olympics in the USSR and felt it was a great opportunity for a chance to prove how the Soviets were a peaceful regime and just wanted a group hug.

I was one year old at the time. Therefore I didn't have an opinion. Had I been older, I suspect my view might have been a bit more nuanced than that you suggest.

[BDunnell]

A reflection « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/a-reflection/#comments)

Been 'had' by the establishment, or telling it how it is? You decide, but first, here's our Graham with a summary chuck.....

And what about all the other reports as to the general situation in Bahrain? This, rather than the specific events that might surround the race itself, is my overriding reason for not having wanted F1 to go there.

[F1boat]

A reflection « (http://joesaward.wordpress.com/2012/04/22/a-reflection/#comments)

Been 'had' by the establishment, or telling it how it is? You decide, but first, here's our Graham with a summary chuck.....

Invaluable report. Thanks for posting.

[steveaki13]

Clearly the need for this thread is at an end.

After 21 pages and many points of view. The simple answer is No! It won't be cancelled.

Whether the race weekend can pass without incident is still not fully answered yet.

But this could reflect badly on F1 for a long time.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Yes. But not because of the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan.

I was opposed of the Olympics being held in a country under the yoke of a Murderous Dictatorship just like I was opposed to the Bejing Olympics.

I suppose you were in favor of holding the Olympics in the USSR and felt it was a great opportunity for a chance to prove how the Soviets were a peaceful regime and just wanted a group hug.

But I suppose you agree with holding a GP in a country the government of which runs an illegal concentration camp, in which people are held and tortured without having had the chance to a fair trial? A regime that started a war against another country by lying to the united nations about alleged WMD that turned out to be non-existant? If not, the Houston GP is toast...

[EuroTroll]

I'm just relieved nothing bad happened on the track...

Off the track, I wish the same could be said. :(

[jens]

Clearly the need for this thread is at an end.


I tend to agree with you. :) And obviously we don't need to discuss about Soviet, US and other issues here, which people have started doing once the main topic has been covered.