Thank you BMW!

[odykas]

For walking away from Sauber. :p :
It would have been difficult for them to achieve these great results, under your command. :devil:

[zako85]

Strange judgement. Before last weekend, Sauber's latest podium finish was in 2009, the last year of BMW's team ownership. Under BMW ownership, the team finished 5th, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th overall in 2005-2009.

[52Paddy]

I think the BMW years at Sauber proved the most fruitful of their career. However, I'm still happy that BMW have walked away and Sauber have reverted to their 'privateer' status once again. It's a breath of fresh air to see a competitive privateer team mixing it amongst the rich, corporation/manufacturer teams.

[jens]

I find these BMW thoughts particularly interesting in the light of Williams' recent history. I remember years ago there were debates whether Williams should have sold its team to BMW or not. In the end Sauber did it. Consequently Sauber had a more successful period in 2006-09. Of course after the pull-out of BMW it was claimed that Williams had made the right decision by not selling to BMW. But I have to say that even after initial difficulties Sauber has managed to come along well and is still doing quite well, and again consistently better than co-privateer Williams.

Also it should not be underestimated that with the help of BMW Sauber managed to upgrade its Hinwil-based facilities significantly. In 2009 there were a lot of talks about their "supercomputers". Allegedly it was supposed to enable them to adapt to the new '09 regulations well, but didn't happen so... But this modern infrastructure is certainly useful in this day.

[BDunnell]

I find these BMW thoughts particularly interesting in the light of Williams' recent history. I remember years ago there were debates whether Williams should have sold its team to BMW or not. In the end Sauber did it. Consequently Sauber had a more successful period in 2006-09. Of course after the pull-out of BMW it was claimed that Williams had made the right decision by not selling to BMW. But I have to say that even after initial difficulties Sauber has managed to come along well and is still doing quite well, and again consistently better than co-privateer Williams.

I suppose it depends on whether Williams, had it sold out to BMW, would have had the continued desire to operate as a privateer as Sauber has. Impossible to say, really.



Also it should not be underestimated that with the help of BMW Sauber managed to upgrade its Hinwil-based facilities significantly. In 2009 there were a lot of talks about their "supercomputers". Allegedly it was supposed to enable them to adapt to the new '09 regulations well, but didn't happen so... But this modern infrastructure is certainly useful in this day.

They were good facilities even before that, being used by the Pilatus aircraft manufacturer amongst others.

[Malbec]

I find these BMW thoughts particularly interesting in the light of Williams' recent history. I remember years ago there were debates whether Williams should have sold its team to BMW or not. In the end Sauber did it. Consequently Sauber had a more successful period in 2006-09. Of course after the pull-out of BMW it was claimed that Williams had made the right decision by not selling to BMW. But I have to say that even after initial difficulties Sauber has managed to come along well and is still doing quite well, and again consistently better than co-privateer Williams.

Also it should not be underestimated that with the help of BMW Sauber managed to upgrade its Hinwil-based facilities significantly. In 2009 there were a lot of talks about their "supercomputers". Allegedly it was supposed to enable them to adapt to the new '09 regulations well, but didn't happen so... But this modern infrastructure is certainly useful in this day.

There's a famous story that illustrates BMW's relationship with Williams perfectly.

After BMW bought Sauber, a BMW Sauber retired with flames coming out of the back end after some valves decided to make a bid for freedom. Williams sent Sauber a postcard with a pic of the burning car titled "catastrophic chassis failure, engine A-OK". When BMW partnered Williams whenever the car did well it was apparently because of the engine whereas if the car performed badly then it was clearly a chassis problem, even if it was an engine failure because the ancillaries hadn't been designed properly.

I cannot stand BMW when it comes to motorsport. Not only have they achieved little on their own they frankly often don't seem to have a clue. Their recent MotoGP prototype where they asked an Italian CAR racing company to build them a premium motorbike racer which was ridiculed widely was shocking. Their ALMS V8 'M3' racer where they refused to build a homologation road special and pulled out after winning the championship but before the deadline for selling the required number of cars was IMO one of the worst attempts at corporate cheating that I can remember. Then there is the Williams fiasco. But worst of all perhaps is their amateur attempt to sell BMW Sauber to QADBAK, an investment fund where the CEO had been convicted of fraud in the UK where they had been prevented from purchasing a football team because of their dodgy behaviour. They persisted in claiming that QADBAK were fine while Sauber's hard fought sponsors each edged away from the team, unwilling to link themselves to convicted fraudsters. Finally they somehow pulled off a deal where they sold the team back to Peter Sauber for around 30 million Euro where Honda had the decency to give the team away for free to management.

It didn't surprise me at all to see BMW mess Prodrive around over the Mini WRC project.

They may run their roadcar company very well with the help of a Euro vastly undervalued compared to the old Deutsche Mark but I have little respect for their abilities elsewhere.

As a longstanding Sauber fan I'm ecstatic that the team has scored its first podium since they got rid of BMW. Hopefully it'll be the first of many and maybe Peter Sauber can finally sell his team to someone who will safeguard its future and let him retire as he's long wanted to do.

[zako85]

The fact that 10 years of F1 involvement have earned BMW cars at best the "best of the rest" position, except for mild success with Williams in early 2000s, might have contributed to their pullout. Had Williams and BMW stayed together and succeeded, BMW might not have pulled out of Formula 1 in 2009.

PS: I like Malbec's post. What I find really ironic is that around the world BMW cars are viewed as a "driver's machine", yet BMW doesn't have the motorsport prowess to back up this reputation. BMW's closest competition, Audi and Mercedes, have fared much better in sports.

[Malbec]

I suppose it depends on whether Williams, had it sold out to BMW, would have had the continued desire to operate as a privateer as Sauber has. Impossible to say, really.

Peter Sauber didn't really want to carry on in F1 but he lives in Hinwil where his team employs a large proportion of the residents directly or indirectly. If the team collapsed so would his village which is why he paid over the market value of the team (which was probably near zero given it was the height of the credit crunch) to BMW to carry it on.


They were good facilities even before that, being used by the Pilatus aircraft manufacturer amongst others.

Their windtunnel was extremely good and was being used to court VW before BMW became involved.

[BDunnell]

I cannot stand BMW when it comes to motorsport. Not only have they achieved little on their own they frankly often don't seem to have a clue. Their recent MotoGP prototype where they asked an Italian CAR racing company to built them a premium motorbike racer which was ridiculed widely was shocking. Their ALMS V8 'M3' racer where they refused to build a homologation road special and pulled out after winning the championship but before the deadline for selling the required number of cars was IMO one of the worst attempts at corporate cheating that I can remember. Then there is the Williams fiasco. But worst of all perhaps is their amateur attempt to sell BMW Sauber to QADBAK, an investment fund where the CEO had been convicted of fraud in the UK where they had been prevented from purchasing a football team because of their dodgy behaviour. They persisted in claiming that QADBAK were fine while Sauber's hard fought sponsors each edged away from the team, unwilling to link themselves to convicted fraudsters. Finally they somehow pulled off a deal where they sold the team back to Peter Sauber for around 30 million Euro where Honda had the decency to give the team away for free to management.

Manufacturers can be absolutely astonishing in their incompetence when it comes to motorsport, can't they? In the old days, Ford certainly 'got' motorsport, as had BMC before that, but look at Ford's motorsport record in the last 30 years and it's pretty woeful. Is this the result of bean-counters taking over from motorsport people? Then there are the Japanese, whose efforts either seem to have been brilliant or laughable. My favourite example of all is Nissan with the Sunny GTiR rallying project. Team principal Dave Whittock recalled a few years ago how the Japanese engineers' preparation for the 1991 Safari, the team's first WRC event, largely involved putting cigarette packets in potholes to measure their depth. Then when Whittock told the Nissan bosses that a victory first time out on the Safari was unlikely, they seemed to lose interest in the whole programme.

[BDunnell]

Peter Sauber didn't really want to carry on in F1 but he lives in Hinwil where his team employs a large proportion of the residents directly or indirectly. If the team collapsed so would his village which is why he paid over the market value of the team (which was probably near zero given it was the height of the credit crunch) to BMW to carry it on.

Do you think Frank Williams would just have given up had he sold out to BMW before being faced with their getting rid of it, then?

[BDunnell]

What I find really ironic is that around the world BMW cars are viewed as a "driver's machine", yet BMW doesn't have the motorsport prowess to back up this reputation. BMW's closest competition, Audi and Mercedes, have fared much better in sports.

BMW does — or, at least, did — in touring car racing. Often it's been down to external preparation companies, but it can't be denied that BMW has been highly successful in tin-tops with works-backed programmes.

[Malbec]

Manufacturers can be absolutely astonishing in their incompetence when it comes to motorsport, can't they? In the old days, Ford certainly 'got' motorsport, as had BMC before that, but look at Ford's motorsport record in the last 30 years and it's pretty woeful. Is this the result of bean-counters taking over from motorsport people? Then there are the Japanese, whose efforts either seem to have been brilliant or laughable. My favourite example of all is Nissan with the Sunny GTiR rallying project. Team principal Dave Whittock recalled a few years ago how the Japanese engineers' preparation for the 1991 Safari, the team's first WRC event, largely involved putting cigarette packets in potholes to measure their depth. Then when Whittock told the Nissan bosses that a victory first time out on the Safari was unlikely, they seemed to lose interest in the whole programme.

I don't think you can lump together an entire nation in one grouping. Nissan's recent WRC attempts may have been poor but IIRC they had a Fairlady Z do well in the Safari back in the '70s didn't they? I don't think the Japanese are any better or worse than the Germans or Americans. BMW may not get motorsport but the VW group (when they can be bothered) have done very well with ALMS or F3 and Mercedes have not done badly either.

Frankly for BMW I think the issue comes down to not being very capable dealing closely with an outside party. Their incompetence in this respect is not limited to motorsport. Their takeover of Rover reads like a slapstick comedy while their motorbike division is suffering from appalling quality issues due to increasing reliance on their Chinese suppliers and failure to ensure quality in their partners. Then their choice to take over RR was interesting to say the least when historically Bentleys outsold the luxury marque 3:1.

[Malbec]

BMW does — or, at least, did — in touring car racing. Often it's been down to external preparation companies, but it can't be denied that BMW has been highly successful in tin-tops with works-backed programmes.

At the moment they are presenting themselves as having a strong racing history in motorbikes with their very good S1000RR.

Problem is, its a bit difficult to do so when your last victory on tarmac was back before WW2!

[Malbec]

Do you think Frank Williams would just have given up had he sold out to BMW before being faced with their getting rid of it, then?

Dunno, my comment was more aimed at Sauber's motivation. I don't think he did want to carry on being involved in F1 but came back in for other reasons. Even now he is less involved in the team than he ever was before.

[BDunnell]

I don't think you can lump together an entire nation in one grouping. Nissan's recent WRC attempts may have been poor but IIRC they had a Fairlady Z do well in the Safari back in the '70s didn't they? I don't think the Japanese are any better or worse than the Germans or Americans. BMW may not get motorsport but the VW group (when they can be bothered) have done very well with ALMS or F3 and Mercedes have not done badly either.

Hence why I didn't say that Japanese efforts were all bad. Datsun, of course, was hugely successful in rallying, especially on the African events, for some time. Toyota's rallying exploits were exceptional. So much of this has been down to setting up European-based competition arms, of course, but very few manufacturers of any nationality have run truly in-house motorsport efforts for a long time. Set against these positive examples, though, are those occasions when — it seems to me — there has been a peculiarly poor influence on the part of Japanese manufacturers when the bosses have attempted to gain too much influence and simply not understood what was required.

[wedge]

Their ALMS V8 'M3' racer where they refused to build a homologation road special and pulled out after winning the championship but before the deadline for selling the required number of cars was IMO one of the worst attempts at corporate cheating that I can remember.

You mean the E46 M3 GTR?

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/large/960/BMW-E46-M3-GTR-Strassenversion_1.jpg

BMW did nothing wrong from what I remember. They satisfied the homologation rules at the time which was to homologate within the year, which they eventually did.

Porsche moaned and played the "not within the spirit of the rules (of GT racing)" card because they didn't want to get into another arms race after coming back off GT racing of the mid-late 1990s - which, funnily enough, was instigated by Porsche who took the urine/exploited the rules.

For 2002 the rules were changed and BMW quit because they couldn't/wouldn't satisfy the homologatation rules in time then that's their business.

[jens]

Good insightful posts and thoughts here. :)



As a longstanding Sauber fan I'm ecstatic that the team has scored its first podium since they got rid of BMW.

It is quite amazing to think that this was perhaps the first time in the long history of Sauber F1 team, when they had genuine race-winning pace! In any case P2 is their best ever result, discounting BMW's period. And looking at BMW's period, they never really had genuine race-winning pace either, while the Canadian GP win was a bit fortunate.

[philipbain]

The thing I found really galling about BMW's management of Sauber was in 2008 when BMW-Sauber had produced a competitive car and won the Canadian GP. With a stated goal of winning a race achieved the BMW Management decided that it would practically cease it's effort in 2008 and concentrate it's resources on going the next step in 2009. Where this approach may work in Sports Car Racing where big manufacturer teams are competing mainly against privateer outfits with limited resources and budgets, it should be learnt that in F1 to stand still is to go backwards! This was further compounded by the fact that BMW-Sauber's 2009 car was distinctly average and lacked the innovation of rivals such as Brawn which led to a season playing catch up. It's inconceivable that a true racing team would give up a shot at a championship just because a pre-determined goal had been achieved and is the reason why the big car companies should keep F1 programs at arms length, let the experts run it, they can throw as much money as they like at it, just don't let them try and actually run it!

[N4D13]

philipbain, I understand your post, but I don't really think BMW had a chance to win either championship in 2008. Kubica managed to lead it mostly due to LH and KR's mistakes, but it doesn't mean that the BMW was THAT good. They only won the Canadian GP and that was only thanks to Hamilton going banzai on Räikkönen while Kovalainen and Massa had very poor races. I would understand their decision if they wanted to focus on having a championship-winning car in 2009, although seeing what a dog they had the next year, I wonder whether they started putting resources into its 2009 car or just stopped funding their F1 effort altogether.

[jens]

To deepen into the issue a bit, one problem with 2008 BMW Sauber was that although it was initially fast, it was complicated and difficult to develop, like the 2011 Renault. I think if BMW management saw genuine potential in the car and hence genuine shot at the world championship, they would have gone for it. But at that moment they had to make a difficult choice - go on with a car they won't get any further, or concentrate on a clean sheet design with which to attack.

[Malbec]

To deepen into the issue a bit, one problem with 2008 BMW Sauber was that although it was initially fast, it was complicated and difficult to develop

I remember thinking exactly that when it first came out given that it was covered in fins and turning vanes everywhere. How on earth could they improve on it without starting from scratch?

I think BMW were damned whatever they did in 2008 (and I think my other posts on this thread show I am VERY far from being a BMW fan). Their car was slower than McLaren/Ferrari and was very unlikely to win either championship whatever they did. As for 2009, of course investing more in the next season's car increases the likelihood of it being more competitive but is no guarantee, after all this is the nature of motorsport. They weren't to predict that the ban on double diffusers would be worked around and made legal by the FIA, nor that RBR would finally get their act together and challenge the top teams.

I think BMW probably had genuine confidence their KERS system was better than the rest but didn't realise how unimportant it would be for overall performance.

[Somebody]

Then their choice to take over RR was interesting to say the least when historically Bentleys outsold the luxury marque 3:1.

Well, they didn't "take over" anything there. After losing RR/Bentley to VW, they proceeded to do an end-run around that company and nicked the licence to use the Rolls-Royce name by throwing money at the aerospace company (who actually own the name). And then had to build up a new company from scratch to go with the name, while the "old" car company continued purely as Bentley (a name VW *do* own - to this day, BMW merely licence the right to call their company's cars "Rolls-Royce", with the potential someone else could take it off them in the same way they got it).

[wedge]

To deepen into the issue a bit, one problem with 2008 BMW Sauber was that although it was initially fast, it was complicated and difficult to develop, like the 2011 Renault. I think if BMW management saw genuine potential in the car and hence genuine shot at the world championship, they would have gone for it. But at that moment they had to make a difficult choice - go on with a car they won't get any further, or concentrate on a clean sheet design with which to attack.

It had a sweet spot and akin what Brawn now describes the current car MGP as "peaky".

Personally I think that car had a lot of potential going by Kubica's sulky mood after his win at Canada because BMW said they wanted to "help" Heidfeld. Kubica felt he was hampered at not having a shot at WDC.

As Malbec rightly pointed out you're damned if you do (McLaren have said 2009 car was compromised by 2008) and damned if you don't.

BMW cars are one of the beat cars to travel long distance. I personally BMW cars very much.

[ioan]

The thing I found really galling about BMW's management of Sauber was in 2008 when BMW-Sauber had produced a competitive car and won the Canadian GP.

If it wasn't for Hamy turning of his brain BMW-Sauber wouldn't have won any race.

[ioan]

It had a sweet spot and akin what Brawn now describes the current car MGP as "peaky".

Personally I think that car had a lot of potential going by Kubica's sulky mood after his win at Canada because BMW said they wanted to "help" Heidfeld. Kubica felt he was hampered at not having a shot at WDC.

So Kubica was sulky because they gifted him his only ever F1 win? What an arse.

[steveaki13]

If it wasn't for Hamy turning of his brain BMW-Sauber wouldn't have won any race.

When hammy didn't know the sequence of the traffic lights. ;)

Lesson number one on your driving test....... Red means STOP. :crazy:

[wedge]

So Kubica was sulky because they gifted him his only ever F1 win? What an arse.

If it was Heidfeld or Vettel and not Kubica we'd get a different response, wouldn't we Ioan?

[ioan]

If it was Heidfeld or Vettel and not Kubica we'd get a different response, wouldn't we Ioan?

You really think that every one has same low and prejudiced standards that you have?
Think again!

[wedge]

You really think that every one has same low and prejudiced standards that you have?
Think again!

A personal attack says it all.

[jens]

Now I advise you to stop this nonsense. :)