Loeb against endurance rallies

[MJW]

"I'm more of a fan of starting the recce on Wednesday morning and finishing it on Thursday," he said. "Then rally on Friday and Saturday - have the party on Saturday night and then go home on Sunday."

I agree with Seb, I would prefer a endurance type two day rally like San Remo IRC, and what Kris Meeke suggested after Rally GB 2011. Why not have long days with some evening / night stages and restricted servicing? That could satisfy Mouton/Todt's desire for a return to older values. Dragging out an event with needless person/hotel nights doesnt help anyone. A reduced day long hours events would make WRC rallies more affordable for both manufacture teams and privateers.

[A FONDO]

My motto is "the harder - the better", so from my fan's point of view, I firmly prefer two long days than nowaday's 4 with 4-6 repeating stages. As you say its cheaper for privateers but I am sure top drivers and teams (especially the one in the title) will say it is too exhausting and they want longer rest breaks. Anyway I have another idea. Reduce recce to only one pass for stage, considering everybody has camera in the car and watch it multiple times in the hotel room.

[MJW]

[quote="SlowSon"] Another good idea, as you say everyone doing the recce now has an onboard camera. As Loeb suggested a Wednesday recce, with one pass you could have shakedown / qualifying and ceremonial and pr stuff on thursday, with rally friday and sat

[N.O.T]

considering everybody has camera in the car and watch it multiple times in the hotel room.

are you serious ???? ???? ????

[bluuford]

good one:
Sebastian Loeb says... | Facebook (http://www.facebook.com/rallyestonia/posts/10150641275399892)

[Brother John]

So this thread is what I mean by PUB Talk discussions.

[janvanvurpa]

How is this thread different than 95% of all the other talk here?

[noel157]

It isn't.
BJ, you've just derailed this thread......

[Sulland]

Once upon a time rallies were endurance, like Monte carlo classic and Safari rally omongst others.

My feeling is that the calendar should have 2 endurance rallies, due to the fact that a world champion should also master that kind of 'Classic' events, that require a different kind of tactics than todays 'sprint' rally format, with 'full gas' from start to finish!

[Martin Luijk]

That guy is allowed to drive as fast as possible on very nice and beautiful roads, and he's still complaining. That's really unfair. I wish I could drive those stages in a WRC car, as much as possible.

[noel157]

Once upon a time rallies were endurance, like Monte carlo classic and Safari rally omongst others.

My feeling is that the calendar should have 2 endurance rallies, due to the fact that a world champion should also master that kind of 'Classic' events, that require a different kind of tactics than todays 'sprint' rally format, with 'full gas' from start to finish!

I agree. Couple of long events would certainly be good. Strategy and caring for the car rather than "flat to the mat sprints" should be part of the WRC.

I guess Loeb's comments just another sign that he's getting bored with all this winning stuff......... :)

[MJW]

It's a bit strange that only Loeb has comments on these long events. It's like he doesn't enjoy it anymore and wants to be at home as much as possible...

For our kind moderator:
- This topic has something to do with rallying and WRC, so it is in the right category.
- This topic could create a big discussion (apparently it hasn't yet and it may not create a big discussion, but it can)
- So the topic-starter created this topic with the intention of doing a discussion here and not in other topics.
- IF you want to have a clean forum where people are having discussions in a decent way, you're going the wrong way.
- Nothing personal, just some remarks...

seeing as autosport.com had it (may still do) as the headline lead story in the wrc news section of the magazine I thought it relevent, for those who are interested in what the multiple world champion driver thinks of his sport here is a link. Sorry to have clogged your forum BJ.
Sebastien Loeb against endurance rallies - WRC news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98212)

[wildboar]

I like the photo that rallye-magazin.de posted with the article about Loebs endurance opinion:
http://www.rallye-magazin.de/uploads/pics/news_wm_20120320-1.jpg

[N.O.T]

That's really unfair. I wish I could drive those stages in a WRC car, as much as possible.

I am sure you do but there is a small detail...

you are not doing this for 15+ years and you haven't won 69 events 8 champinships and ridiculed every other driver around you...

i do not blame Loeb...its normal for someone to get a bit fed up from all the travelling around and recce...

Gronholm retired for the same reason without achieving anything compared to Loeb.

[Mirek]

Anyway I have another idea. Reduce recce to only one pass for stage, considering everybody has camera in the car and watch it multiple times in the hotel room.

That's nonsense, sorry. One-pass recce can result in only one thing - the long established guys will take another advantage over newcomers. Do You really believe that adding another obstacles for new teams is what WRC needs?

[Mirek]

So this thread is what I mean by PUB Talk discussions.

What value You bring to the forum by this post?

[MJW]

That's nonsense, sorry. One-pass recce can result in only one thing - the long established guys will take another advantage over newcomers. Do You really believe that adding another obstacles for new teams is what WRC needs?
I agree - it was taken out of context, two runs not one run is not a big saving, what I really meant was to ensure the recce could be done on wednesday and thursday morning with S/D or qualifying thursday afternoon. That would then accomodate the two day friday and saturday rally.
With the Loeb itinery just imagine the number of hotel bed nights at €100 per night it would save for a team of 70 persons.
I would like it known that I wish to withdraw my one pass recce statement.

[AndyRAC]

What is best for the Manufacturers isn't neccessarily what is best for the sport as a whole. It seems too many have forgotten what made the sport the fantastic spectacle it was/ is....

Repeated stages round a central service park 13-14 times a year definately isn't it. Surely 3-4 'Endurance type' events in a season will suffice.

[MartijnS]

For me 3 days of rallying, just as it is now most of the rallies is fine! Friday, Saturday,Sunday..I don't see why everything should be done within 48 hours.
Monte Carlo makes no sense imo..way too long event and too big timegaps between the stages.

[amilk]

I'm not good enough to say if the endurance good or not because there are different factors like the sport value and costs

But dissapoint to here Loeb who is even like shorter rallies than today at least in days - 2 days events basically

I like to see some rounds year by year as spectator and to travel some thousand kilometers to see the cars 2days x 2times (maybe 3) not realy enough

I understand that after many years it's just a work for Loeb and the family and business more and more important - it's normal from his viewpont

[N.O.T]

I think the rallying part of rallying is ok for any driver....

Its the Recce and the media stuff that make a bit of a nuisance and drivers get bored.

[dimviii]

That guy is allowed to drive as fast as possible on very nice and beautiful roads, and he's still complaining. That's really unfair. I wish I could drive those stages in a WRC car, as much as possible.


http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/news/loeblezicispici.jpg

[AndyRAC]

For me 3 days of rallying, just as it is now most of the rallies is fine! Friday, Saturday,Sunday..I don't see why everything should be done within 48 hours.
Monte Carlo makes no sense imo..way too long event and too big timegaps between the stages.

Monte-Carlo didn't work. Should have been finished on the Friday night, as in the IRC versions. Dragging it out until Sunday was unfortunate. That's not an Endurance event.
I'm not against having some events start Friday evening for 3-4 stages, then all of Saturday for a 20:00 finish. Lots of stages/mileage in a short time period. Variety is what is needed, not identikit events.

[janvanvurpa]

Once upon a time rallies were endurance, like Monte carlo classic and Safari rally omongst others.

My feeling is that the calendar should have 2 endurance rallies, due to the fact that a world champion should also master that kind of 'Classic' events, that require a different kind of tactics than todays 'sprint' rally format, with 'full gas' from start to finish!

There is ONE of the problems but expressed as na solution.
The problem is the small minded push towards UNIFORMITY---pushed by stupid people. Pushed by cynics.. Bought not by humans but by Corporate types and their "target demographic": consumers..

You see there are a lot of differnt views in the world on everything , including rally, a lot of climates and foods, weathers, languages, TERRAIN...

Some humans like and delight in the difference....for example motorsport was for me primarily, and conciously a means for seeing the world---and getting paid for it..


But mental midgets say "Wwe should have the exact same format in every WRC so consumers can .....blah blah....the WRC product blah blah"
And for us poor bastid who are only lowly clubbie rally guys we have even less creative parapsites who say "We need the exact same format on every event so that...."

Variety and play up the variety, hype the flexibility a driver MUST have for mastering sprinty type, or (a couple) of Acropolis type, or "the Finnish Grand Prix" or...overnight occasionally ( I can and have driven over night, occasionally, so can WRC heroes), and with that different format, delight....


But to do that the Promotion and "media" types need to be whipped into submission. Maybe even beating with real clubs. THEY and those wishing to profit off the media have been the engines of change toward this CONFORMITY push.
Satans fan Sulland you hit the nail on the head...

[AndyRAC]

Yes, I agree - good post.
The sport only needed minor changes; sadly they went OTT and followed the F1 example....now look?
The sport is much worse off, and the coverage, Promotion is pretty dire. And look at how many events have commercial sponsors: Finland, Portugal & New Zealand.....

[denkimi]

personally i would prefere 2 or maybe 3 long days of rally.

starting at 06:00 in the morning, and continuing till 02:00 at night. doing much more k's of special stage, with long stages and little time between. that way, it becomes some sort of endurance race (like le mans), but without the disadvantages of the usual multiple-day formats.

[Barreis]

It's the same for Loeb, he wins one way or another. So way not shorter way. :D

[Franky]

starting at 06:00 in the morning, and continuing till 02:00 at night.

I don't think that 4 hours of sleep will be safe, when you are driving lots of long stages very fast.

And I think we can't bring any kind of analogy with circuit racing because those endurance races are totally different. In Le Mans one driver drives max 4 stints in a row. I can't remember how long the stints were in minutes. Those guys go in circles for ever, in rallying you see one turn usually once or twice. So the conditions are very different.

[bubbaontour]

are you serious ???? ???? ????

for once i actually agree with you... this just shows a spectacular level of ignorance!

[Gregor-y]

I generally like how US events are scheduled, with stages on Friday afternoon to midnight or so and all of Saturday starting around seven and ending late. That means I only need to take two days off since all these events are 400 or more miles away and I prefer a full day to get there and back.

That said I'd take extra time for a rally chock full of stages over more than two days. The old RAC would be a nice example if one could find the sponsors and willing local governments.

[Lousada]

Where does he say he is against endurance rallies, and where does he say he wants shorter rallies? The way I read it he is against those endlessly drawn out timetables like at the Monte Carlo this year. He is actually in favour of more endurance, because putting a full rally in two days means constant action and less room for mistakes and less servicetime.

Unless they drastically increase the length of WRC rallies I'm also in favour of stricter time schedules. When following a rally it's kind of boring to follow 3 morning stages, then hours of coffeebreak, finally in the afternoon the same 3 stages repeated and then somewhere in the evening after more dinnerbreaks some silly superspecial. That is a full day rallying but in the end not a lot happened.

[mousti]

It's a bit strange that only Loeb has comments on these long events. It's like he doesn't enjoy it anymore and wants to be at home as much as possible...


Like I said earlier I think he will calling it quits after his 10th world championship win is a great number to stop with it, though that 10th one could maybe one of the most difficult one if Ogier can control his temper and if the Polo is very fast! :D

[Mirek]

I don't think that 4 hours of sleep will be safe, when you are driving lots of long stages very fast.

And I think we can't bring any kind of analogy with circuit racing because those endurance races are totally different. In Le Mans one driver drives max 4 stints in a row. I can't remember how long the stints were in minutes. Those guys go in circles for ever, in rallying you see one turn usually once or twice. So the conditions are very different.

This talk about safety is in my opinion very exaggerated. Have a look on real marathon rallies. Amateur motorcyclists in Dakar often sleep two-three hours per day for two weeks and their driving is way more exhausting than that of car drivers.

WRC wants to show itself to the public as a kind of adventure but it can hardly be farther from that when drivers do basically a normal working period per day, sleep in hotels, have fancy motorhomes in service park etc.

[DonJippo]

This talk about safety is in my opinion very exaggerated. Have a look on real marathon rallies. Amateur motorcyclists in Dakar often sleep two-three hours per day for two weeks and their driving is way more exhausting than that of car drivers.

WRC wants to show itself to the public as a kind of adventure but it can hardly be farther from that when drivers do basically a normal working period per day, sleep in hotels, have fancy motorhomes in service park etc.

And when had we a Dakar without deaths during it?

[tfp]

For me 3 days of rallying, just as it is now most of the rallies is fine! Friday, Saturday,Sunday..I don't see why everything should be done within 48 hours.
Monte Carlo makes no sense imo..way too long event and too big timegaps between the stages.

What he said :)


Once upon a time rallies were endurance, like Monte carlo classic and Safari rally omongst others.

My feeling is that the calendar should have 2 endurance rallies, due to the fact that a world champion should also master that kind of 'Classic' events, that require a different kind of tactics than todays 'sprint' rally format, with 'full gas' from start to finish!

On the other hand, 2 endurance events would give variety, and I'm sure if its only 2 events a year, Loeb wouldnt mind that :cool:

[tfp]

For me 3 days of rallying, just as it is now most of the rallies is fine! Friday, Saturday,Sunday..I don't see why everything should be done within 48 hours.
Monte Carlo makes no sense imo..way too long event and too big timegaps between the stages.


http://www.ewrc.cz/images/2012/news/loeblezicispici.jpg

Dimvii, love all the behind the scenes pictures you get, I've still got the one of Novikov saved on my computer :D

[Prisoner Monkeys]

I think a mix of events is a good idea. Last year's Rally Jordan demonstrated that you can have a sprint event and it can work. At the same time, I think endurance events are a good idea, so long as they're actual endurance events and not a case of everyone standing around and doing nothing for hours on end, as was the case at Monte Carlo this year. If there were fifteen rallies on the calendar, then I think five sprint events, five conventional events and five endurance events would work just fine.

[Mirek]

And when had we a Dakar without deaths during it?

No WRC event lasts two weeks and no drivers do it on motorcycles. So the safety level just from that is way higher. The point was that two days of driving with little rest can't be a big problem for safety. It is only a problem of comfort. In my opinion it is nothing in terms of safety compared to the nature of the roads in Finland (or in my country) for example.

[MJW]

bit of an update - from the printed version of Autosport -Bullet points from the article:-
1.The championship organisers are adamant that a greater element of endurance will be brought in to the championship.
2. Rally cars could go all day without service.
3. These will be implemented in 2014.
4. Todt says that this year the rule will change to split rallies into two defined patterns, Classic rallies will have a total stage distance of between 300 and 400kms whilst endurance rallies will be between 400 and 500kms with 6 classics and 6 endurance rallies making the championship.

In another section it refers to an imminent conflict in Portugal with the drivers against night stages with potential for dust. Michelle said she understands their concerns but its important that rallying becomes more challenging. "Drivers will have to use their brains more for something that is challenging"

I predict a conflict between Jean Todt / Michelle Mouton on the FIA side versus the paddock club service park set. This is going to run for a bit but from what I have been told the FIA President is a determined (opinionated) individual who gets his way. I think FIA will win, but at what cost?

[AndyRAC]

I’ve predicted a ‘war’ since Jean Todt was elected and made it clear he wanted the WRC back on track. What is best for the WRC isn’t always the best for the Manufacturers. They’ve ruled the roost for the past 10+ years, and look were that has taken us. Their moaning over last years RallyGB route shows how out of touch & clueless they are about were the sport is.
Time for Jean Todt/ FiA to have more of a say – if the Manufacturers don’t like it – go circuit racing!! Maybe he has other interested Manufacturers in line, if the current ones don’t like his plans.

However, whilst I want to see more night stages – I’m not sure having them on dry, dusty gravel Rallies is a great idea. Maybe only have them on Tarmac/ winter-wet gravel events??

[N.O.T]

bit of an update - from the printed version of Autosport -Bullet points from the article:-
1.The championship organisers are adamant that a greater element of endurance will be brought in to the championship.
2. Rally cars could go all day without service.
3. These will be implemented in 2014.
4. Todt says that this year the rule will change to split rallies into two defined patterns, Classic rallies will have a total stage distance of between 300 and 400kms whilst endurance rallies will be between 400 and 500kms with 6 classics and 6 endurance rallies making the championship.

In another section it refers to an imminent conflict in Portugal with the drivers against night stages with potential for dust. Michelle said she understands their concerns but its important that rallying becomes more challenging. "Drivers will have to use their brains more for something that is challenging"

I predict a conflict between Jean Todt / Michelle Mouton on the FIA side versus the paddock club service park set. This is going to run for a bit but from what I have been told the FIA President is a determined (opinionated) individual who gets his way. I think FIA will win, but at what cost?

In other words...

.....Damn nothing happens in rallying we need NEWS !!!
..... I know lets MAKE THINGS UP !!!!
..... YAAAAAAY !!!!

Classic autosport articles....

[leighton323]

The FIA are actually right for once (well in my opinion). Rallies do need to become more of a challenge, and need to have a better variation of stages instead of just repeating the same stages of the morning loop. I just do not see how the teams and drivers cannot support the FIA's outlook on this. Its crazy, frustrating for the fan and just seems a little selfish instead of doing what obviously the fans want and need (as shown with support on this forum). Michelle Mouton is right, we need a true challenge, a true adventure.

[Franky]

No WRC event lasts two weeks and no drivers do it on motorcycles. So the safety level just from that is way higher. The point was that two days of driving with little rest can't be a big problem for safety. It is only a problem of comfort. In my opinion it is nothing in terms of safety compared to the nature of the roads in Finland (or in my country) for example.

I was actually referring to the spectator safety. The guys in the car are protected but the thousands of fans at the road side have got only trees, if even that. And if we'd push all the spectators hundreds of meters away from the road, then I personally can't see how the fans could enjoy watching something in the distance.
I might exaggerate because I don't have a huge knowledge of racing, even less of endurance racing. But I prefer to return home after a rally, so safety is important for me.

Also from a spectator point of view, I wouldn't like that long days (20 hour days). If I'd follow a rally at home behind a computer screen, then I wouldn't have anything against that long days but when on the road then I think I wouldn't enjoy the rally as much because I'd be just exhausted by the mid-point of the second day. And if we take away the joy of attending a rally, then it isn't a spectator sport any more.
I also don't like when the day ends in the afternoon. If the last stage would start in the evening, then it would be great.

[T.Maanteiden kuningas]

More longer rallies! I don't understand Loeb, his career is not so long?! History knows lots of drivers WHO owns more active years or kilometers/miles.

[janvanvurpa]

I was actually referring to the spectator safety. The guys in the car are protected but the thousands of fans at the road side have got only trees, if even that. And if we'd push all the spectators hundreds of meters away from the road, then I personally can't see how the fans could enjoy watching something in the distance.
I might exaggerate because I don't have a huge knowledge of racing, even less of endurance racing. But I prefer to return home after a rally, so safety is important for me.

Also from a spectator point of view, I wouldn't like that long days (20 hour days). If I'd follow a rally at home behind a computer screen, then I wouldn't have anything against that long days but when on the road then I think I wouldn't enjoy the rally as much because I'd be just exhausted by the mid-point of the second day. And if we take away the joy of attending a rally, then it isn't a spectator sport any more.
I also don't like when the day ends in the afternoon. If the last stage would start in the evening, then it would be great.

Spectating, back when WRC was really popular to watch, used to be a big adventure for spectators also...
It was a big adventure for my service crew the one WRC event I do. Fond memories even 20 years later of a sense of accomplishment... 3 out of 3 went on to build and run cars for years (all Opels, too and all full of nice parts I imported from Din Rallyboutique i Varmland and Trend AB in Stockholm (Tackar grabbar!).

Now most events are forgotten pretty quickly.

[EightGear]

For me, personally, rallying (and motorsports in general) is about the fastest man winning. And yes, I DO like some kind of endurance events, but not if we end up having a championship with only endurance events. One whole day without service for the cars? Crazy. Imagine someone getting a mechanical problem on the very first stage.... A split between the two kinds of events would be fine (50% like it is now, 50% endurance type).

[Francis44]

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance means hard and long hours for men and machine.

[janvanvurpa]

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance menas hard and long hours for men and machine which then demands thinking, planning, maybe some mechanical sympathy and is therefore much more complex and nuanced, and that translates into more interesting...

Fixed that for you

[MJW]

For me there is hardly any endurance event now. The longer format of five days is not endurance, in Monte Carlo he had 5 days with legs consisting of one stage. For me endurance means hard and long hours for men and machine.
I agree I like the endurance aspect but am in favour of full on two format rather than 5 days. I do like the Loeb suggested format, and I dont like the 3 stages long lunch and 3 stages repeated. I really wish I could find the itinery Kris Meeke suggested for last years rally GB. It was a bit like a flat out San Remo. I donr think 5 or 7 nights in a hotel is good, thats why my version of endurance is compressed into 4 days inc 2 for competion and two for recce / shakedown.

[ste898]

I have an idea for this let the 'whinger' retire

He has never driven a proper event in his career and yet people bleet on about him being the best ever....what utter crap!!!

Let him pee off to his roundy roundy racing with the other pre madonnas

[BDunnell]

I’ve predicted a ‘war’ since Jean Todt was elected and made it clear he wanted the WRC back on track. What is best for the WRC isn’t always the best for the Manufacturers. They’ve ruled the roost for the past 10+ years, and look were that has taken us. Their moaning over last years RallyGB route shows how out of touch & clueless they are about were the sport is.

The question is, what is different about the reasons for the attitude of today's WRC manufacturers compared with those of, say, the mid-1980s? Have they simply come to the view that they, rather than the sport's own authorities, know best?

[BDunnell]

Now most events are forgotten pretty quickly.

How sadly true that is.

[AndyRAC]

The question is, what is different about the reasons for the attitude of today's WRC manufacturers compared with those of, say, the mid-1980s? Have they simply come to the view that they, rather than the sport's own authorities, know best?

It's a good question. Personally, I'd say it was that they think they know best. The last 10 years disprove their theory. The sport will only be going places if everybody pulls in the same direction. The FiA/ Jean Todt want one thing, the Manufacturers another....and as MJW has said, Todt seems determined to get his way, whatever the cost.

[BDunnell]

It's a good question. Personally, I'd say it was that they think they know best. The last 10 years disprove their theory. The sport will only be going places if everybody pulls in the same direction. The FiA/ Jean Todt want one thing, the Manufacturers another....and as MJW has said, Todt seems determined to get his way, whatever the cost.

I don't understand what the manufacturers do want, to be honest.

[AndyRAC]

I don't understand what the manufacturers do want, to be honest.

I can hazard a guess. To keep the status quo, so they can wine and dine their guests/VIPs in the Paddock, I mean Service Park. And there will be hell to pay if any of these guests get mud on their shoes, as was one complaint about Builth Wells in November.
Look, the Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. However, using UK as an extreme example, RallyGB gets very little mainstream coverage....how is that helping them? Whereas the old RAC received huge newspaper, radio & TV coverage - just what Manufacturers want.
Am I missing something?

[BDunnell]

Look, the Manufacturers are in it to sell more cars. However, using UK as an extreme example, RallyGB gets very little mainstream coverage....how is that helping them? Whereas the old RAC received huge newspaper, radio & TV coverage - just what Manufacturers want.
Am I missing something?

My point exactly. And why was that? In large part, surely, because it was much more of a national event, geographically and figuratively.

[A.F.F.]

I also like to see fastest man winning. But I wouldn't mind a couple of longer rallyes in the calendar, fitting the characteristic, like Safari was. In such rallyes it would be interesting to see who can hurry slowly and drive smart to the end.

[Mirek]

I have an idea for this let the 'whinger' retire

He has never driven a proper event in his career and yet people bleet on about him being the best ever....what utter crap!!!

Let him pee off to his roundy roundy racing with the other pre madonnas

All that could have been written in a civilized way. Sadly it didn't happen. Is it so difficult to express Your opinion like a an adult person?

Maybe I'm too old to read that but... I'm not even thirty. Something is wrong, huh...

[janvanvurpa]

Harumph, smells like pub talk in here..Rum, entirely too rum, Pub talk the lot a ya!

[/Brother John (who is from same Vlaandern as me ancestors and living as a furriner in the same country I lived in)(and my bloody name is John and I am brother to every man) [b]VOICE OFF]

[janvanvurpa]

My point exactly. And why was that? In large part, surely, because it was much more of a national event, geographically and figuratively.

Now you guys are onto something right there. You know that even in the "generation of Block-heads" here in Fortress Amerika that really what rally is only VERY DIMLY grasped by the masses. And that's with Blogs and Youtube and relentless TV hype.....

But! Even 45 years ago EVEN HERE people had heard of and some of us knew of Monte carlo and RAC..
Por que you say?
because they were big capital A Adventures...
RAC all round the whole isle. Monte starting from pointes around the whole Continent, even the East Block!

What an adventure just to think about doing..
in deed, the sparseness of the reports made us imagine a lot more..

But even over here in a culturally insular, virtual monolinguistic isolated land, some us us had heard of rally because of the hugeness of the adventure.

And some of us thought...Hmmmmmmm, it might be fun to do that ....one day....

[MJW]

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.

[BDunnell]

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.

In which case, how can the WRC ever hope to recover? The nature of the current events is, many seem to agree, part of the problem. Rallying traditionally is not just about short flat-out sprints. They have their place — they have always had their place — but they are not the be-all and end-all.

[sollitt]

Dakar should be adventure, WRC about being the fastest. To those who are in favour of the long marathons have you any idea just how much more expensive these rallies will be with current WRC cars? I guess doing the type of events many hope for will bring us a field of R4 cars as the top class. For a start check how much per litre WRC fuel is.So you're suggesting that the events should be built around the specification of the cars rather than the cars designed to handle the event? That's novel. With such an unintelligent approach one could be forgiven for thinking you were Australian.

[AndyRAC]

So you're suggesting that the events should be built around the specification of the cars rather than the cars designed to handle the event? That's novel. With such an unintelligent approach one could be forgiven for thinking you were Australian.

To be fair to MJW, I do remember one of the WRC team members arguing that the current WRCars weren’t designed for Endurance events. And that was one of their arguments against the Endurance return...
I don’t think anybody is really advocating every event is Endurance. It’s variety that is needed. So, 2,3 Endurance, 2-3 Sprint, and the rest what we have now. It would be nice to think some events would drop the Cloverleaf format – as that has brought us boring/ staid events, e;g Deutschland - which for 10 years has been virtually the same.

[whosyo]

I can't understand why Todt desperately trying to bring some works team.
In these days, manufacturers simply don't want to invest their money
And even if they're take part in this field and win the championship
I don't think we're going to buy some M.W.C winner's road car
In the past, there's lots of meaning about winning the championship to them, it changed
It's time to cost down of this sport and bring the privateers in

[skarderud]

I wrote something about that in a norwegian forum, but no'one was interested in that discusion. Take a look at TTA - Elitserien i Racing (http://www.ttagroup.se) , its a new top racing class in sweden. Everything is ready, just fit a body on demand. Is i concept like this suitable for wrc? I Think atleast citroen will leave, but if 5-8 private teams will join instead, i can live with that. For the man in the street, it will not make any difference. But its a quite cheap way to run a topclass i wrc, and lots of teams and drivers can be competative for a decent amount of money.

[N.O.T]

is it nice to be in star trek universe ???

i will visit some day...

[skarderud]

Talking to me?
Looking after a fart, and the **** arise......

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

[N.O.T]

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

not man enough to say some things in a language i can understand ?? even through a Pc screen ??? LOL.....

anyway...

If you think the solution for the top of the sport is to scare the manufacturers away and promote more nobres then there is not much to do to help you....

[pino]

Talking to me?
Looking after a fart, and the **** arise......

Tror trygda arbeidsledige grekere, antagelig med dårlig hårvekst på toppen og pc på prompen bør vise litt ydmykhet....

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

[noel157]

Is calling NOT bald an insult? BTW, did any Danes "win" the lottery? :)

[skarderud]

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

It was hardly a insult, more of an fact. So you are half danish? Cool!
When our man stop ruin every discusion with his **** and nonsence, i will start answear his post in a proper way. I could ban his posts from my profile, but its the easy way, and not my way of discusion. i trying to start a proper discusion about how to make wrc more atractive, i don't wan't any insults about nerd's stuff's in it. Maybe my post has no future in real life, but a proper discusion about a set of rules more atractive for smaller teams, importbased and private teams that can build and run a topspec and competitive rallycar in wrc in the future. Cause todays situation is hardly good for the sport.

[A.F.F.]

English please, and I let you know that my second language is Danish, so don't try to post any insults in your language or you will be in big trouble !

Don't try french or spanish either, those come third and fourth languages! But if you absolutely must make an insult, try finnish. Proven fact that Pino doesn't understand paskaakaan suomea :) Except words like hölkynkölkyn and Karjala takaisin :)

[Tomi]

I wrote something about that in a norwegian forum, but no'one was interested in that discusion. Take a look at TTA - Elitserien i Racing (http://www.ttagroup.se) , its a new top racing class in sweden. Everything is ready, just fit a body on demand. Is i concept like this suitable for wrc? I Think atleast citroen will leave, but if 5-8 private teams will join instead, i can live with that. For the man in the street, it will not make any difference. But its a quite cheap way to run a topclass i wrc, and lots of teams and drivers can be competative for a decent amount of money.

Ridiculous idea because it wont attract any manufacturer to get involved.

Also its quite chep to attack forum members on personal level, and to attack them with a language they dont understand, is not only cheap but cowardish aswell.

[N.O.T]

you do understand however how a private team works ???

Means that someone has to pay to drive, you call that a future in the sport ???

believe it or not motorsport in particular (and sports in general) exists because car maufacturers make money out of it not because they love the sport or they want to have people driving fast on closed roads and not on the streets...

Its funny how people consider the golden years of rallying (80s-90s) when we had 4-5 manufacturers in it.... yet they imagine a future without them to help the sport...

As for the insults part use a language i can understad...i do not mind what you say...insults on a monitor cannot get into me..

[skarderud]

The difference from today wouldn't be to big, who is not paying to drive these days? Loeb, mikko and latvala?
The rest pays to drive. If the result of a concept of this is citroen leave, and 5-8 other brands arive i cant see why that cant work? More equal competition, better fighting and more potensial winners. It is that we all wan't, isnt it?

[N.O.T]

The difference from today wouldn't be to big, who is not paying to drive these days? Loeb, mikko and latvala?
The rest pays to drive. If the result of a concept of this is citroen leave, and 5-8 other brands arive i cant see why that cant work? More equal competition, better fighting and more potensial winners. It is that we all wan't, isnt it?

why we would have more potential winners ???

and why if Citroen leaves 5-8 are going to come ???

who guarentees such stuff ??

already we have 3 manufacturers next year and if BWM weren;t a bunch of nobodies we would have 4... When mini entered as a manufactuer it brought Sordo and Meeke in the team...when they left they we got the fat brazilian clown with sunglasses and the other one whatshisname...

The manufacturers are always going to go for quality because if they do not they are risking their reputation...in the private teams whoever pays drives....

And as i said....the best years of rallying were those when the manufacturer involvement was big...how do you think a revamp of the series should not include them ???

[Brother John]

And where would these discussions are at home? :?:
Oh yes I can´t have my opinions here on the forum. :confused:
There are comments from some members immediately. :p :

[A FONDO]

The discussion is excellent. Pastor John, moderating forum is not like sorting boxes in a warehouse.

[skarderud]

Noone can garanty anything, but its more likely than now. If Toyota and Subaru also joins, there are no need for a new formula, but if we in 4 yrs have 2 manu's, then its time for some new thinking. In 60's, 70's and early 80's it was most imported- based teams around, with different level og support from the brands,why cant such a strukture be posible in 2018, if the alternative is like last yrs.

[janvanvurpa]

It was hardly a insult, more of an fact. So you are half danish? Cool!
When our man stop ruin every discusion with his **** and nonsence, i will start answear his post in a proper way. I could ban his posts from my profile, but its the easy way, and not my way of discusion. i trying to start a proper discusion about how to make wrc more atractive, i don't wan't any insults about nerd's stuff's in it. Maybe my post has no future in real life, but a proper discusion about a set of rules more atractive for smaller teams, importbased and private teams that can build and run a topspec and competitive rallycar in wrc in the future. Cause todays situation is hardly good for the sport.

Hej drengen, when you say "importbased" just to calrify (cause I think I know what you mean but I don't like to assume and it's not exactly clear) do you mean "importer" based (vet du säg importör t.ex Norsk Citroen Importör Team)?
If that's what you mean OK, it was thru history the normal way National Champgnonskit teams were run, not ''ren-fabriks'' teams.

As for the problem with the guy who does NOT have anything but insults for men (and women) far braver than he who actually compete, while he dares NOT to, the simplest thing is just do the ignore thing....then the only time you are forced to read him moaning and spewing his contempt for essentially EVERYBODY is if somebody forgets and relies to his droning using the "reply with quote" function..


Oh and AFF is right, since noboby in the world actually understands any Finnish, even the Finns, and it's all just one kind of swearing or another, just call the guy something from the handy link:
Finnish profanity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_profanity)
Or Suuri kirosanakirja--a nice book full of swearing and etymology, origins , tips (why Finns say "16" mer eller mindre som man kan säga ''sjutton'')(säger man sjuton på Norska?)

Trust me, I have worked with and raced against hard ass Finns for years. They were very kind men and taught me a lot (for example I can count all the way to 3 på finska, not bad after 6-7 years!!) and it really is one of the better, more satisfying languages to be frustrated and swear in...and to 99% of the world, its polite, so everybody is happy..

[skarderud]

@tommeke b: yes, i think that to, but technique is one side of it, i prefeer competition and several potensial winners. if, and maybe its not far away, a new crisis reach eu/euro we will lost the manu's, and then no wrc? maybe the consept is more suitable for a R4t class/consept? an easy way in and resonable prized rallyclass for talents, teams like adapta can have a deal with mazda norway, opel team germany and so on. i think also the likes of nobre will disapear fram a class like this, cause its so hard competition that they wont even be seen on tv.

@jan: yeah, importerbased, i dint know the right word :)
sjutton is two things, seventeen and a nice way to say "faan" :) sytten, or "søtten" outside towns, is the norwegian way to say 17.
the finnish swearing-stuff is genius, then i can insult anyone :) its like the norwegian tv-comic, the two danes that don't understand eachother so they ended up talking english..... it's comon in norway to say that danish isn't a language, its a sickness :)

in norway a couple of years ago, it was a trial between a guy from nothern norway against a policeofficer, he called the police "hæstkuk", a horses dick in english, and the jugde said that that wasn't an insult, its comon in that area to use such words :)

back to topic!

[Rally Power]

To be fair to MJW, I do remember one of the WRC team members arguing that the current WRCars weren’t designed for Endurance events. And that was one of their arguments against the Endurance return...
I don’t think anybody is really advocating every event is Endurance. It’s variety that is needed. So, 2,3 Endurance, 2-3 Sprint, and the rest what we have now. It would be nice to think some events would drop the Cloverleaf format – as that has brought us boring/ staid events, e;g Deutschland - which for 10 years has been virtually the same.



Andy is right! Different formats could stand side by side as IRC organizers, on a small scale, have already showed.

The clover leaf routes, based on the central service area, brought real logistic advantages to competitors, but lead to an excessive homogeny of WRC, damaging the adventurous side of rallying.

Things got worse with 9 to 5 schedules in order to bring TV and VIP’s, forgetting that WRC popularity is heavily linked with local spectator’s enjoyment, as we’ve seen today in Fafe.

In order to revive WRC roots and keep manufacturers direct involvement, essential to the sport, multi format rallies could really be the answer - especially if integrated in a contained calendar (12 courses maximum), with transnational routes, as seen in Swedish/Norway rally - together with a realistic capacity to maintain WRC cars costs controlled, promoting stock parts larger use and restraining technical developments.

It’s fair to say that FIA representatives are showing a new and sensible approach to WRC, highly needed after Mosley’s unhopeful years...

[MJW]

GP Week : Issue 147, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=17)
A lot of common sense spoken my Michele here, endurance thankfully doesnt have to mean long drawn out rallies with more of the same. I like what she is thinking.

[J4MIE]

GP Week : Issue 147, Page 1 (http://mag.gpweek.com/#folio=17)
A lot of common sense spoken my Michele here, endurance thankfully doesnt have to mean long drawn out rallies with more of the same. I like what she is thinking.

Yes, I liked it when I read that this morning :up: