Felipe Massa

[Hawkmoon]

How long are Ferrari going to put up with Massa's poor performances? In 2010 he was back from his injury and they cut him some slack and rightly so. In 2011 he was further behind Alonso and still Ferrari said no problem but we'll need to see an improvement next year. Then comes 2012 and Massa is even further behind his teammate. Enough is enough.

Fair enough, the F2012 isn't a very good car at the moment but Massa was so far behind Alonso this weekend that it's no longer just disappointing, it's pathetic. I haven't felt this negative towards a Ferrari driver since Capelli in '92. After today I think I'd rather have Capelli.

Massa struggled to get out of Q1 and never looked like getting into Q3. In the same car Alonso would have easily made Q3 but for his spin, admittedly an error on his part. In the race Alonso dragged the car up to 5th. Massa? He spent most of the race going backwards and at one point I thought Trulli was in the car such was the train of cars lined up behind him.

I never expected that Massa would beat Alonso as he simply isn't in Alonso's class but he was a full second behind in both Q1 and Q2 and his fastest lap of the race was 1.2 seconds off Alonso's best. In my opinion he no longer deserves a Ferrari drive.

Ferrari don't have the luxury of carrying an under-performing driver this year as they are going to need every point they can get to stay ahead of Lotus and Mercedes. Were I Domenicalli and Di Montezemolo I would be on the phone to Sauber and asking how much is it going to cost to get Perez in the second Ferrari. Free engines for the year? Done!

Whatever it was that Massa had up until his accident in 2009 has gone and with it his career at Maranello.

[janneppi]

I don't think has much to say about the car handling when it differes from what alonso wants, if their driving styles are too different it's Massa who has to cope, and it seems he hasn't been able to do so. He's hired to be the number 2 driver and that's what he's doing.

Ferrari doesn't really have much options, none of the top drivers really want to be at Ferrari when Alonso is in such a strong position and I doubt that less exprienced drivers would do any better than Massa.

[F1boat]

I don't think has much to say about the car handling when it differes from what alonso wants, if their driving styles are too different it's Massa who has to cope, and it seems he hasn't been able to do so. He's hired to be the number 2 driver and that's what he's doing.

Ferrari doesn't really have much options, none of the top drivers really want to be at Ferrari when Alonso is in such a strong position and I doubt that less exprienced drivers would do any better than Massa.

This is true, unfortunately. It is very difficult to have a motivated nu2 driver. Maybe only Nick Heidfeld will do a better job than Massa. Quick Nick know how to score big points with bad cars and IMO will be a happy nu2 driver. Massa was mighty, on his day, but no longer... Kind of sad, really :(

[EuroTroll]

Ferrari doesn't really have much options, none of the top drivers really want to be at Ferrari when Alonso is in such a strong position and I doubt that less exprienced drivers would do any better than Massa.

The benefit of hiring a promising youngster, of course, is that even if he was initially much slower than Alonso, it wouldn't be so pathetic. And there would be hope of better things to come.

I'm really sorry for Massa because that accident ruined his previously quite excellent career, but what can you do... When you're consistently a second a lap slower than your team-mate, you're clearly in the wrong team.

If it was my decision, I'd gamble with Jean-Eric Vergne from Toro Rosso. He's going to be a bit good, I think.

[jens]

Although we have had just one race of 20 and one can claim a single race doesn't make a season, we are now dealing with a case of a driver, who has been underwhelming for 2+ years, not just a single race. And this is a serious issue.

To be frank, I don’t see why (and probably many think in the same way) was Massa kept even for this season. I have to say that in the past I have been cheering for Felipe, especially when he was at his prime a few years ago and fighting for wins. But by now he has completely lost it, and it is sad to see such agony.

Massa’s performance doesn’t justify even his place in F1 any more, let alone Ferrari. If I was a team boss of a random midfield team, can’t say I would be interested in the services of the Brazilian. Only the likes of Caterham and Marussia could be interested in getting some top team experience. So not only Massa’s Ferrari career, but his whole F1 career is quickly coming to an end.

Of course as the car is difficult to drive, it is unlikely that a replacement driver would be significantly better. Massa reminds me Grosjean or Fisichella from the end of 2009, when they were nowhere in a difficult car. There is high possibility the replacement driver would be struggling like that as well, especially with no testing.

But then again Massa is now part of past and Ferrari should be looking to the future – the sooner the better. And there is nothing to lose while they are right now not getting many or any points at all. Midfield is full of exciting young talents and if I was Domenicali, I would be actively in touch with them, evaluating their progress and hiring someone for 2013, be it Pérez, Kobayashi, Hülkenberg, di Resta, Ricciardo, Vergne. Plenty of choice. :)

If you want mid-season replacement and none of them are available, Alguersuari or Sutil are options.

Oh yes, Trulli is available too and Stefano and Luca diM would be able to claim that they are actually supporting Italian drivers. :p : But he is old and likely not going to perform well.

[Uneven Treatment]

Poor Felipe, seems an almost broken man. A broken man who drives fast cars every 2nd weekend for millions of dollars and gets to hang out with supermodels whenever he likes. But broken nevertheless.

Hard to see why on recent form Ferrari continue to employ him. Is it a hang over from the days when they were dominant and they actively only wanted one top driver to avoid intra-team conflict? Seems they are now a mid grid team with the mindset of a front runner.

[BDunnell]

I'm really sorry for Massa because that accident ruined his previously quite excellent career, but what can you do...

I don't think what happened in Germany in 2011 helped his morale, either.

[Dave B]

Massa strikes me as the sort of chap who is constantly telling himself not to screw up, so much that he inevitably...

[N. Jones]

Patrick Head is believed to have said, paraphrasing "once a driver is involved in a huge accident he never regains his speed."
I think Felipe Massa fits this statement perfectly.

It's sad but I think he career is over.

[fandango]

Patrick Head is believed to have said, paraphrasing "once a driver is involved in a huge accident he never regains his speed."
I think Felipe Massa fits this statement perfectly.

It's sad but I think he career is over.

Hakkinen or Lauda, to name just two, might have something to say to that. However, I agree with the general sentiment here. Poor Felipe, I've always liked him, but if he doesn't do something impressive soon he's not going to see out the season.

The obvious choice to replace him would be Alguersuari. They could take him on for the rest of the season and then see how Kubica is. Jaume has experience of the Ferrari engine, and he has the drive and motivation to get the most out of the car, combined with enough experience to bring it home in one piece regularly.

[The Black Knight]

Hakkinen or Lauda, to name just two, might have something to say to that. However, I agree with the general sentiment here. Poor Felipe, I've always liked him, but if he doesn't do something impressive soon he's not going to see out the season.

The obvious choice to replace him would be Alguersuari. They could take him on for the rest of the season and then see how Kubica is. Jaume has experience of the Ferrari engine, and he has the drive and motivation to get the most out of the car, combined with enough experience to bring it home in one piece regularly.

Ferrari would be mad to take on Kubica. It'd be taking a driver that lost it in a big accident and potentially replacing with another driver who might also have lost it. Kubica is an unknown entity after his crash. Hiring him without seeing if he still has it would be madness. I think Sutil would be a good replacement for Felipe. It's excuse after excuse with him but nothing at this stage can cover up that Felipe has truly lost his mojo.

I feel sorry for him as he's a likeable fella but I think his career is pretty much over. I can't see why any other team would hire him.

[Mia 01]

If they want to change driver I think they should concider Rubens again.

[Dave B]

If Ferrari want a new driver they need someone who will support Alonso but who can also be groomed to step up to #1 driver when the Spaniard leaves/retires.

Kubica's almost certainly not going to race F1 again but even if he did come back wouldn't fit the #2 mould; Barrichello undoubtedly has experience but doesn't have a long-term racing career ahead of him.

Someone like Perez would be ideal: he'd jump at the chance and would quite happily play rear gunner to Fernando, he's also young enough that he could be a long term driver for the team.

Whatever, Massa's surely on borrowed time. It's only the first race of the season so there's plenty of time for improvement, but I can't imagine Ferrari management were impressed with his performance this weekend.

[EuroTroll]

If they want to change driver I think they should concider Rubens again.

I'm sorry, but that's funny! :D

[N. Jones]

Hakkinen or Lauda, to name just two, might have something to say to that. However, I agree with the general sentiment here. Poor Felipe, I've always liked him, but if he doesn't do something impressive soon he's not going to see out the season.

The obvious choice to replace him would be Alguersuari. They could take him on for the rest of the season and then see how Kubica is. Jaume has experience of the Ferrari engine, and he has the drive and motivation to get the most out of the car, combined with enough experience to bring it home in one piece regularly.

Yes, I was thinking of Hakkinen when I wrote that!
I have to admit though that once Mika won his two championships he seemed to stop trying. David Coultard once said that Mika stopped driving one of the old McLaren cars when he and David we reunited a few years ago because "he got scared".

Lauda - I did forget about him. Wasn't the sentiment that Olivier Panis' career was ruined after he broke both legs in a crash in Canada?

Anyway, I like Felipe too, especially how he handled himself after losing the world championship by one lousy point...

[Malbec]

I like Massa a lot. I admire and respect Alonso as one of the best drivers in history but Massa is the one I support from the Ferrari duo. That said it is painful to see him drive at the moment and I have to ask, does he even enjoy turning up every other weekend to be outpaced by his teammate to this degree every time? Is driving a red F1 car worth that assault on his dignity? Previously I have said that his drop off in performance may be due to the Pirellis not being to his liking but he's had enough time to adjust. The excuses are running out.


The obvious choice to replace him would be Alguersuari. They could take him on for the rest of the season and then see how Kubica is. Jaume has experience of the Ferrari engine, and he has the drive and motivation to get the most out of the car, combined with enough experience to bring it home in one piece regularly.

I disagree, Red Bull have openly said that they do not believe Alguersuari has what it takes to be a top driver, especially in terms of intelligence. I might disagree with the fact that they made this information public but I do not dispute their conclusions as they've tested him long enough. Why would Ferrari want to take him on?

Kubica is not going to be back in F1 sadly. People say Massa isn't the same after what turned out to be a head injury with no longstanding effects, Kubica's injuries are on a different scale and currently we have little indication that he has returned to the level of physical function attained by most people on this forum let alone a honed top F1 driver.

If Ferrari are desperate they can call Sauber and take Perez or possibly Kobayashi (maybe they can get Bianchi as a replacement). Alternatively if this season is going to be written off, let Massa finish the season with dignity and pick one of the many top drivers whose contracts finish this season.

[Knock-on]

I was thinking about starting this thread after Q but thought he might just be a bit rusty. I hope Ferrari keep him ;)

[A FONDO]

To be frank, I don’t see why (and probably many think in the same way) was Massa kept even for this season. Dont you know who his manager is?

[Koz]

Dont you know who his manager is?

If that is the case it would make sense to switch him with his manager's other client.

[N4D13]

If that is the case it would make sense to switch him with his manager's other client.
I don't think giving Bianchi a drive without proper F1 testing in a Ferrari car would make any sense, specially if he's going to have Alonso as a teammate. I'd rather bring Alguersuari in, but there's no reason to think he could perform any better than Massa is doing, specially considering that he hasn't driven a Formula One car, let alone a Ferrari, for several months.

[veeten]

should've kept Kimi... should've kept Kimi...

When they decided to drop him for Massa, I knew it was a bad idea. And now, returning with a new team, and finishing with a points-paying top 10 spot, while their 'choice' ended up with a DNF, it's like big old "nyah nyah nyah :p " right in their collective faces.

... should've kept him. :\

[ioan]

I don't think has much to say about the car handling when it differes from what alonso wants, if their driving styles are too different it's Massa who has to cope, and it seems he hasn't been able to do so. He's hired to be the number 2 driver and that's what he's doing.

Ferrari doesn't really have much options, none of the top drivers really want to be at Ferrari when Alonso is in such a strong position and I doubt that less exprienced drivers would do any better than Massa.


Exactly.
Some Ferrari fans should have a good look at Ferrari and their doings before pointing fingers towards Massa.
I hope he's got a good contract and screws them royally for what they did in 2010.
He will probably retire soon anyway.

[ioan]

should've kept Kimi... should've kept Kimi...

When they decided to drop him for Massa, I knew it was a bad idea. And now, returning with a new team, and finishing with a points-paying top 10 spot, while their 'choice' ended up with a DNF, it's like big old "nyah nyah nyah :p " right in their collective faces.

... should've kept him. :\

They should have kept Kimi and Felipe.
Or do you think that Kimi and Alonso would have been a good pairing? Would Kimi have accepted being No.2 to the race fixer? Or would have Alonso behaved in a civilized way when loosing to Kimi? We all know the answers.

Alonso's 3rd season with Ferrari will not deliver anything better than Massa delivered to Ferrari in the past. Funny eh?!

[Koz]

I don't think giving Bianchi a drive without proper F1 testing in a Ferrari car would make any sense, specially if he's going to have Alonso as a teammate. I'd rather bring Alguersuari in, but there's no reason to think he could perform any better than Massa is doing, specially considering that he hasn't driven a Formula One car, let alone a Ferrari, for several months.

Meh, if they are both going to struggle regardless why not get a new boy in?
I'd say Sutil would be a better prospect than Alg.


should've kept Kimi... should've kept Kimi...

When they decided to drop him for Massa, I knew it was a bad idea. And now, returning with a new team, and finishing with a points-paying top 10 spot, while their 'choice' ended up with a DNF, it's like big old "nyah nyah nyah :p " right in their collective faces.

... should've kept him. :\

Massa was always Ferrari boi, they wouldn't ditch him for an "unmotivated" Kimi.
And let us not forget 2007, Alonso might get his panties in a bunch if racing alongside Kimi...

You also gotta remember 2009, Massa was doing better than Kimi before his accident and Kimi was eons ahead of both Badoer and Fisi, and also 2008... Massa would have seemed a better option. (Not to mention the Alonso-Ferrari rumours started mid-2007 before Kimi was champ)

I for one hope Lotus and Kimi finish ahead of Ferrari in the standings. I think this might just end up being the case.

[veeten]

No, ioan, just kept Kimi. Then, there would've been no need for Alonso, and would've been looking for a replacement for Massa soon after.

But, instead, we have what germinated to the present situation in front of us, and the only people that need to explain are the ones in charge... and we know why they won't be talking.

just call it sheer embarassment. :o

[BDunnell]

Some Ferrari fans should have a good look at Ferrari and their doings before pointing fingers towards Massa.

You were one once, let's not forget, before your almost Damascene conversion.



I hope he's got a good contract and screws them royally for what they did in 2010.

On what legal grounds?

[jens]

I'm sorry, but that's funny! :D

:D What is even funnier, is that Rubens would probably do better than Massa. I think Rubens is more adaptable to cars that are real handfuls to drive. For Massa cars like F2008 are perfect, which has very good aerodynamics, is a real top car and handles well.

[BDunnell]

Would Kimi have accepted being No.2 to the race fixer?

Interesting legal brain of yours on display here, ioan — making this accusation, and suggesting that Massa has grounds on which to sue Ferrari.

[Robinho]

Ferrari could take a gamble on anyone right now and not be worse off. The car isn't great but it has decent race pace, but only Alonso looks capable of bringing home any points. As long as massa is tooling around fighting for 10th they may as well bring in anyone.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

[N4D13]

Meh, if they are both going to struggle regardless why not get a new boy in?
I'd say Sutil would be a better prospect than Alg.
Fair points. ;)

[fandango]

It's also true that in this race Alonso was fortunate with his pitstop and the safety car. He could have easily had different luck and finished 10th, which wouldn't be such a big difference to Massa. Massa's big problem is that he hasn't done anything impressive for a long time. The best he does is almost get on terms with Alonso.

I can't see Ferrari taking on a very inexperienced driver like Bianchi. It would be too much pressure for a young Italian (he is Italian, isn't he?). Sutil is a bit too mad, and the image thing with the court case would be a factor. Kovy might be solid and good, but he didn't really impress at McLaren. I really can't think of anyone apart from Alguersuari who could fit in to cover the season while they make a decision about the long term drive. Who else is there? Trulli?

[DexDexter]

No, ioan, just kept Kimi. Then, there would've been no need for Alonso, and would've been looking for a replacement for Massa soon after.

But, instead, we have what germinated to the present situation in front of us, and the only people that need to explain are the ones in charge... and we know why they won't be talking.

just call it sheer embarassment. :o

Ferrari should have kept Jean Todt and let him decide who drive the cars.

[N4D13]

Ferrari should have kept Jean Todt and let him decide who drive the cars.
No matter how much people want to complain about Ferrari bringing Alonso in, I can't see why giving him a Ferrari drive could have been considered a bad decision. Dropping Räikkönen was a questionable move, but considering how Kimi had been doing in 2008 and 2009, it's not like it was an absurd move by then.

Time has shown that, in fact, keeping Massa was a mistake. There's no way to know what would have happened if they had a Räikkönen-Alonso pairing - it might have been an amazing one, might have ended up with a repeat of 2007 or Alonso might have actually been faster than Kimi. But I don't think that having kept Kimi and Felipe for 2010 would have resulted in better results for Ferrari than Alonso and Massa delivered, unless Kimi managed to raise his game a lot.

[CNR]

over the weekend one james allen or tom clarkson i cannot remember with one it was but they said that the team is now molded around
Alonso
make alonso sit out first practice and run the third driver ?
do they have a third driver ?
Reports in January said Adrian Sutil might be a contender for the third role.
Rigon not third driver at Ferrari in 2012

[Koz]

I can't see Ferrari taking on a very inexperienced driver like Bianchi. It would be too much pressure for a young Italian (he is Italian, isn't he?).

He will have to start at some point. Why not now?
It probably won't happen, so he will be sitting around testing until Sauber get vacancy?
Lewis wasn't all that experienced in 2007...
He is French with Italian ancestry. (Could an Italian super license be arranged, if Ferrari wanted it?)


Sutil is a bit too mad, and the image thing with the court case would be a factor.
Unlike all the rich boys with their fancy toys? ;)


Kovy might be solid and good, but he didn't really impress at McLaren.
He didn't impress at McLaren, but then again he wasn't on equal terms with Lewis was he?
He was impressive in the Renault and in Caterham.
This is his 6th season, can he Alonso's towel boy for the next 2-3 years and still have a moderately successful career?
I don't quite want to see that.

I really can't think of anyone apart from Alguersuari who could fit in to cover the season while they make a decision about the long term drive. Who else is there? Trulli?
There are no good options here. Trulli and Fisi shouldn't warrant consideration.
I would pick NH over JA. Or better yet get Perez in as a straight swap for Massa, the best option if Sutil's reputation is a hindrance.

Most likely Massa will stick around until Kubica is ready for a come back.

[keysersoze]

If they replace Massa during the season, and want to make sure they keep up in the standings (and it does seem as if the car is reasonably quick), I see them going for Sutil. Alguesuari is not a bad decision, either, it seems. I would think Buemi would not be released, but he is another driver who would be immediately quick.

Ferrari are known to be high on Perez--might they buy him from Sauber? Is that against the regs?

Having said all that--I hope Felipe is quick enough and is permitted to finish the season.

[Koz]

Ferrari are known to be high on Perez--might they buy him from Sauber? Is that against the regs?

They got Fisi, didn't they?

[DexDexter]

No matter how much people want to complain about Ferrari bringing Alonso in, I can't see why giving him a Ferrari drive could have been considered a bad decision. Dropping Räikkönen was a questionable move, but considering how Kimi had been doing in 2008 and 2009, it's not like it was an absurd move by then.

Time has shown that, in fact, keeping Massa was a mistake. There's no way to know what would have happened if they had a Räikkönen-Alonso pairing - it might have been an amazing one, might have ended up with a repeat of 2007 or Alonso might have actually been faster than Kimi. But I don't think that having kept Kimi and Felipe for 2010 would have resulted in better results for Ferrari than Alonso and Massa delivered, unless Kimi managed to raise his game a lot.

IMO signing Alonso was not a bad move from Scuderia, it's just that they were really stupid when they started dismantling the team Todt & Brawn had taken years to build. (Todt joined Ferrari in 93 if I remember correctly.) When Todt left Ferrari in 2008, Räikkönen's position in the team weakened and they started to lean towards Massa which ultimately proved the wrong move. Then they swapped Kimi for Alonso which really didn't solve their main problem: lack of leadership in the team itself.

I do think Massa hasn't been the same driver since his accident but who really knows?

[MAX_THRUST]

How many races till Massa gets fired this year? and who would replace him?

[veeten]

When Todt left Ferrari in 2008, Räikkönen's position in the team weakened and they started to lean towards Massa which ultimately proved the wrong move. Then they swapped Kimi for Alonso which really didn't solve their main problem: lack of leadership in the team itself.

I do think Massa hasn't been the same driver since his accident but who really knows?

... and there it is. Thank you Dex, for that was precisely where I was going. By compounding a bad move with an even worse move, Di Montezmolo & Domenicali proved to be the most inept management to ever be given a team.

[truefan72]

TBH I don't think the accident affected Massa

He is what he is and had one good season in F1 where the car was lightning fast and he could do his usual thing of getting a pole and then disappearing out front.
Massa is a great front runner and nothing else. Even in that 2008 year he got help in Belgium. was pathetic in Silverstone and lets not forget that in 2007 with an even better car, was outclassed by Kimi who won.

Admittedly the car is difficult but this just proves to show the difference between a guy like Alonso who can will a car to perform beyond its means and Massa who simply can't handle it whatsoever. If there were at least flashes of brilliance or signs to suggest that he is being severely compromised by the team, then I could understand. But as it stands, the guy is a serviceable F1 driver with no gusto. If I were ferrari I would call up Sauber and offer a driver trade for either perez or kobayashi (and maybe both drivers and sauber would refuse) but it is unimaginable that Ferrari would go for 19 more performances like this.

Its funny I recall Damon hill calling Rosberg an AI driver, but TBH the real AI driver is massa, gives you a performance within the parameters of the car, incapable of adjusting, lacking that racer's edge and relying on an engineer to supply him with input at every lap throughout a race.

[BDunnell]

... and there it is. Thank you Dex, for that was precisely where I was going. By compounding a bad move with an even worse move, Di Montezmolo & Domenicali proved to be the most inept management to ever be given a team.

A bit of hyperbole there, methinks. I can think of many worse examples.

[gloomyDAY]

A bit of hyperbole there, methinks. I can think of many worse examples.Like?

[BDunnell]

Like?

Günter Schmid at ATS and Rial and Andrea Sassetti at Andrea Moda are the two best examples. I hardly think the way the Jaguar F1 team was managed was a shining example of excellence much of the time. And the same goes for Tom Walkinshaw at Arrows in the end, except that 'inept' doesn't quite cover it in that case.

[N4D13]

Günter Schmid at ATS and Rial and Andrea Sassetti at Andrea Moda are the two best examples. I hardly think the way the Jaguar F1 team was managed was a shining example of excellence much of the time. And the same goes for Tom Walkinshaw at Arrows in the end, except that 'inept' doesn't quite cover it in that case.
Why do we need to get so far in the past? If we're talking about bad management, HRT takes the top spot by quite a distance.

[BDunnell]

Why do we need to get so far in the past? If we're talking about bad management, HRT takes the top spot by quite a distance.

Compared with Sassetti? Not in my eyes, at least.

[keysersoze]

[quote="Koz"]They got Fisi, didn't they?[/QUOTE

How could I forget that?

[zako85]

I don't want to take sides in the debate going on here, though I think it's kind of funny that, at some point in the race, Petrov saw Massa's tail. Petrov's sorry interview after his car DNF'd was also humorous. He seemed to imply, quite optimistically, that seeing Massa's tail at some point showed how good Caterham's cars have become.

[N4D13]

Compared with Sassetti? Not in my eyes, at least.
I'm only talking about the current crop of teams - none of them can compare to HRT in that regard. I've heard of Andrea Moda, but having been there and knowing what happened with that team would have been rather difficult due to biological reasons - might not have been born at the time yet. ;)

[BDunnell]

I'm only talking about the current crop of teams - none of them can compare to HRT in that regard. I've heard of Andrea Moda, but having been there and knowing what happened with that team would have been rather difficult due to biological reasons - might not have been born at the time yet. ;)

Ah, I see.

[Warriwa]

Webbo = Ferrari = 2013 .................................................. .................please..

[Knock-on]

I'm only talking about the current crop of teams - none of them can compare to HRT in that regard. I've heard of Andrea Moda, but having been there and knowing what happened with that team would have been rather difficult due to biological reasons - might not have been born at the time yet. ;)

Andrea Moda was catastrophehy of a team :laugh: They were backhanded and deceitful which was compounded bextremeem incompetence of management. The Black Stig (Perry) might have had a chance in F1 if it wasn't for them.

RetroF1 had a great shirt. Don't know if it's stavailableable but let me know if you want one and I will see if they can get a batch made up.

http://www.retroformula1.com/Comp/AM/images/Master.AndreaModa.Hanes.V2.jpg

[odykas]

I think Massa needs to be motivated.
Something like this would definitely help :p :

http://images.wikia.com/pixar/images/2/27/Lewis-Hamilton.jpg

[Dave B]

Webbo = Ferrari = 2013 .................................................. .................please..
I don't see it. Webber and Alonso are in similar stages of their career, and what Ferrari need is someone who can be groomed as a successor to Alonso when he moves on. I also can't see Mark deliberately moving to a team where he'd be a #2, although many might argue that's his current situation!

[steveaki13]

I no it was only one race, but it was all too familiar from Felipe in OZ.

If they choose to replace him, it will have to be Sutil, Alguersuari or Perez I think.

Perez is most likely for me, because Sutil is not the most attractive prospect at the moment.

[ioan]

I for one hope Lotus and Kimi finish ahead of Ferrari in the standings. I think this might just end up being the case.

:up:

[ioan]

You were one once, let's not forget, before your almost Damascene conversion.

Difficult to support a bunch of spineless muppets and a guy who was involved in Singapore 2008 race fixing.



On what legal grounds?

Who said it has to be on legal grounds?
I just hope his contract does not allow them to fire him and he can continue to cash in, while they continue to be unhappy.

[ioan]

Interesting legal brain of yours on display here, ioan — making this accusation, and suggesting that Massa has grounds on which to sue Ferrari.

I didn't say anywhere that Massa has grounds to sue Ferrari, you did come up with that one on your own.

[ioan]

Ferrari should have kept Jean Todt and let him decide who drive the cars.

You mean Kimi and Felipe?!

Todt would have never ever hired Alonso. He made that clear on several occasions.

[ioan]

No matter how much people want to complain about Ferrari bringing Alonso in, I can't see why giving him a Ferrari drive could have been considered a bad decision.

Alonso didn't deliver. Results are there to see for everyone.
Funnily enough sine Alonso is on board Ferrari fired a bunch of their top engineers without improving the situation. Strange isn't it?

[ioan]

... and there it is. Thank you Dex, for that was precisely where I was going. By compounding a bad move with an even worse move, Di Montezmolo & Domenicali proved to be the most inept management to ever be given a team.

And the next move will be to axe Stef.
LdM is more of a politician and thus a bad manager, his only interest is to keep himself in the lights, no matter what. He's managing that part well.

[ioan]

TBH I don't think the accident affected Massa

Ah Mr. Brain Surgeon is here to share some of his wisdom.

Massa who lost to Hamy by 1 point in 2008, and did beat Kimi in the process, and was showing the way in 2009, wasn't at all affected by a life threatening accident.
No way that would happen. In fact Alonso is such an impressive driver like he showed us all in Singapore 2008... Oh wait...

[ioan]

Why do we need to get so far in the past? If we're talking about bad management, HRT takes the top spot by quite a distance.

HRT is in dire need of money in a not so good economical climate.
Ferrari has got loads of money, they also had the greatest team in F1 history and still it took only one mad man with an ego larger than his TV set to turn it into an average bunch of muppets.

[ioan]

Webbo = Ferrari = 2013 .................................................. .................please..

Yes, please please please. Then the Aussie camp will have a new public enemy! :D

[ioan]

Perez is most likely for me, because Sutil is not the most attractive prospect at the moment.

I'm not sure why everyone has a problem with Sutil.

[steveaki13]

I'm not sure why everyone has a problem with Sutil.

Just thinking that teams might be reluctant to employ him, due to the potential bad publicity, however if they are not of the same mind thats fine and he would be a solid choice as he has plenty of experience (unlike Perez). and has shown on his day he is a fine driver.

Of course another option is an existing test driver Fisichella or Gene. However we saw how Fisichella and Badoer coped in 2009

all in all they will stick with Massa

[Hawkmoon]

Ah Mr. Brain Surgeon is here to share some of his wisdom.

Massa who lost to Hamy by 1 point in 2008, and did beat Kimi in the process, and was showing the way in 2009, wasn't at all affected by a life threatening accident.
No way that would happen. In fact Alonso is such an impressive driver like he showed us all in Singapore 2008... Oh wait...

Your position has nothing to do with your support of Massa and everything to do with your dislike of Alonso. You've made no attempt to defend Massa's poor performances instead using excuses like "Ferrari screwed poor Felipe" and "Alonso's a cheat" to cloud the issue. How about you try and address the reason I started this thread - Massa's poor performance mean's he no longer deserves a Ferrari drive.

Here's a few points for you to address if you can:

1. Let's say Alonso did cheat at Singapore 2008. So what? What has that got to do with Massa's inability to get anywhere near Alonso in terms of pace for last 2+ years? Is Alonso still cheating and making Massa's car slower? If Alonso is such a poor driver, something you claim quite a bit, what does it say about Massa who was a full second behind in qualifying in Australia?

2. Ferrari screwed Massa in Germany 2010. I'll agree that that can't have been pleasant for Massa and I have no problem with him being upset. However if it's still affecting him 18 months later then he needs to grow up and deal with it. Let's not forget that he resigned with Ferrari after that incident so he either accepted the situation or just wanted the money. Either way, it's no excuse for his lack of results since. On a related note, I seem to recall you having no problem with Ferrari "screwing" Barrichello in Austria 2002. Of course that decision favoured Schumacher who you idolised rather than Alonso who you despise. A touch of hypocrisy perhaps?

3. Massa nearly died in a Ferrari. True. However that accident was no fault of Ferrari's. The blame, if any can even be apportioned, lies with Brawn. It was a part from their car that fell off and struck Massa. If that accident has had lingering effects on Massa, and I think it has, then Ferrari have demonstrated a lot of loyalty by keeping Massa employed. If it has diminished his skills then resigning him for a further 2 years past the end of 2010 was either an act of loyalty or charity. Either way, Massa has benefited from it. Let's not forget that this is Massa's 7th season at Ferrari. I'd have to check but I think that's longer than any Ferrari driver other than Schumacher. What an incredibly horrible team they are.

Do have any response to those points? Do you have any argument that Massa's performances over the last 2+ seasons warrant a Ferrari drive? Or any F1 drive for that matter?

[truefan72]

Alonso didn't deliver. Results are there to see for everyone.
Funnily enough sine Alonso is on board Ferrari fired a bunch of their top engineers without improving the situation. Strange isn't it?

sigh, it must be a new year or something...because I'm about to defend Alonso :|

Lets not forget that in 2010 in his first year at ferrari, Alonso came 2 car overtakes away from winning the WDC. and if the team had not screwed up the pit strategy he probably would have won that championship. In Abu dhabi.
So I think bringing him to ferrari wasn't a bad move. Keeping massa after last year was a bad move. As soon as Buemi and Alguersari became available they should have jumped on either one of those guys. Heck, even Rubens would have done a better job than Massa. But I don't think massa will finish the season with the team.

[truefan72]

Ah Mr. Brain Surgeon is here to share some of his wisdom.

Massa who lost to Hamy by 1 point in 2008, and did beat Kimi in the process, and was showing the way in 2009, wasn't at all affected by a life threatening accident.
No way that would happen. In fact Alonso is such an impressive driver like he showed us all in Singapore 2008... Oh wait...

typical Ioan, off the meds again?
Massa started 2010 in decent enough form and by Germany, was back to his old ways.
It isn't the crash that is affecting him. That's just lazy thinking.
It is Alonso and the fact that save his engineers, the entire team is about Alonso.
He has always been a soft character and this predicament he finds himself in along with a tough handling car all expose his true weaknesses.

Sometimes i wonder if you are just being argumentative and rude to stir things up or if you are truly that unaware of mitigating factors and suffer from a rare case of hyperselective memory syndrome :\

[Tazio]

Massa's poor form — his fastest lap was over a second off that of his teammate — has led to speculation

Under pressure

"We need to stay close to Felipe because it's clear that he's under pressure," Domenicali said. "I've asked his engineers to analyse the data on the car, also, to reassure him."
:eek:

gulfnews : Ferrari team chiefs return to Maranello (http://gulfnews.com/sport/motorsport/ferrari-team-chiefs-return-to-maranello-1.997507)

[Knock-on]

Sometimes i wonder if you are just being argumentative and rude to stir things up or if you are truly that unaware of mitigating factors and suffer from a rare case of hyperselective memory syndrome :\

:s hock: Never!!! :s hock:

[Garry Walker]

IMO signing Alonso was not a bad move from Scuderia, it's just that they were really stupid when they started dismantling the team Todt & Brawn had taken years to build. (Todt joined Ferrari in 93 if I remember correctly.) When Todt left Ferrari in 2008, Räikkönen's position in the team weakened and they started to lean towards Massa which ultimately proved the wrong move.
Yes, exactly.
Clearly without Todt, Kimi was without his biggest supporter in the team and Luca montezuma could start his dream of bringing race fixer to the team. Now they have a weak leader Stefano, a race fixer and they are getting nowhere. I am loving it.

[Garry Walker]

I'm not sure why everyone has a problem with Sutil.
Well, some of us have a problem with people who slash other peoples throats, but then again, we aren't all alike

[supraf1]

put Sutil in the car please.

watching massa is just so painful.

Actually no, put me in the car.

[Tazio]

They bring trulli in for Mugello and if Massa's form continue as is (and yes I get it's just the first race of a new season) but if it continues they could bring in Trulli and the crowd would go wild. Or they could bring in Sutil if Peres is not available. Sh!t just bring in Fisi. :s pinhead:

[Tazio]

Ah Mr. Brain Surgeon is here to share some of his wisdom.

Massa who lost to Hamy by 1 point in 2008, and did beat Kimi in the process, and was showing the way in 2009, wasn't at all affected by a life threatening accident.
No way that would happen. In fact Alonso is such an impressive driver like he showed us all in Singapore 2008... Oh wait...
I think he is over the injury to his face/head physically. His mind is working in racing mode. He is head on conscious and sub-consciously. He just began to suck ever increasingly come on Felipe baby prove me wrong.

[Tazio]

I mean Perez :)

[airshifter]

Ah Mr. Brain Surgeon is here to share some of his wisdom.

Massa who lost to Hamy by 1 point in 2008, and did beat Kimi in the process, and was showing the way in 2009, wasn't at all affected by a life threatening accident.
No way that would happen. In fact Alonso is such an impressive driver like he showed us all in Singapore 2008... Oh wait...

Your points might have more effect if you didn't insult people while making them, especially when you cried how Pino should punish someone for saying you made a moronic statement. ;)

[airshifter]

I think Felipe is done. I'm sure there are plenty of things Ferrari have done that I and many others know of that may have simply killed all his motivation. Or it may be other factors such as the accident. Whatever the cause his motivation seems completely gone.

It's strange thinking back that the person who gave Felipe a chance at becoming WDC in that last race of the season was Vettel, who passed Hamilton and Lewis had nothing to respond with. But Lewis battled to the end and managed to get that last point with that last corner pass.

And I have to say, on that day that Felipe lost the WDC by 1 point he stood proud in front of Ferrari and his supporters. It's a shame they have forgotten what he has done for the team and treated him the way they have. But that seems to be a trend with them lately, so Felipe would be better off moving away from Ferrari regardless.

[TheFamousEccles]

And I have to say, on that day that Felipe lost the WDC by 1 point he stood proud in front of Ferrari and his supporters. It's a shame they have forgotten what he has done for the team and treated him the way they have. But that seems to be a trend with them lately, so Felipe would be better off moving away from Ferrari regardless.

I couldn't agree more. He should take what's left of his self-confidence and move to another team. Some support and less of the Maranello political process could bring a cinderella story - or not. What's to loose?

[Uneven Treatment]

Webbo = Ferrari = 2013 .................................................. .................please..

YES PLEASE........ and Ricciardo in the 2nd red bull!!

[Koz]

I couldn't agree more. He should take what's left of his self-confidence and move to another team. Some support and less of the Maranello political process could bring a cinderella story - or not. What's to loose?

Money. A lot of money.

I am sure he would like a private jet like his buddy Rubens too...

[Malbec]

Well, some of us have a problem with people who slash other peoples throats, but then again, we aren't all alike

More importantly sponsors and immigration checks will have a problem with people coming in who have criminal records for assault. I think there are a few countries he'd have to attend races in where his criminal record will mean a delay or even an inability to get in.

Sutil is not a viable prospect until/unless he gets that criminal conviction overturned.

All best avoided by hiring someone else equally quick.

[ArrowsFA1]

Felipe Massa will be given a new chassis for this weekend's Malaysian Grand Prix as his Ferrari team bids to get to the bottom of his troubles in Australia.
Felipe Massa gets new Ferrari chassis for Malaysian Grand Prix - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98220)

[Robinho]

reading between the lines that says to me, "we don't understand why you were so poor, so we're giving us the opportunity to rule out a chassis problem and if you continue to be utterly crap start looking for a new job, thanks very much, a big horse"

[Dave B]

Translation: if you're still crap in Sepang, don't even think about blaming the car.

[longisland]

This thread is about Massa; so I'm puzzled some folks here suggested the team, the management, the boss and team mate were responsible for massa's poor form. It was an unfortunate racing accident but if there is anyone to blame it was Brawn GP for having a car with a loose bolt. This was the same team who retained him instead of Schumacher and Raikkonen, two world champions who were rated much higher than Massa. These were the same boss di Montezemolo, team manager Domenicali & same designer Aldo Costa. Massa has proven his worth in his 2008 title challenge. Ferrari dropped Raikkonen even though they weren't sure if Massa could fully recover. In retrospect, this may be a poor judgement from the team as suggested by some. In 2010, Massa's form weren't great but it was a pretty decent performance considering he wasn't fully recovered. He had 8 top 5 finishes and was robbed in Germany. The new scoring system didn't helped because he was 100 point adrift from his team mate. Last season, Vettel blew everybody away, however, Button & Alonso were still fighting hard even though they knew it was a foregone conclusion. Fans were critical on Hamilton's poor form even he had won 3 races; where was Massa? Can anyone give any proof that his poor form was all down to the team and team mate plotting to sabotage his race? Alonso did whined a lot when he was threatened by Hamilton; this isn't the case last season because Ferrari really needed to do score more points in the constructor's standing but again Massa was over 100 points less than Alonso and never finished better than 5th place. Again, Domenicali ought to be fired for retaining Massa. Let's revisit the German GP incident; Massa was literally screwed by the team royally. Then again, this fine tradition was practiced since the 80s between Villeneuve & Pironi in 82, Schumacher and Irvine after Schumacher broke his leg in 99, the infamous 2002 Austrian GP, 2007 when Massa let Kimi by and if I recalled correctly Kimi may have returned the favor in 2008. Which begs the question why it was ok to let Kimi by in 2007? As a neutral fan, I hope Massa can regain his form in 2008 and challenge his team mate and even the title. He doesn't need to move to another team. All he needs to do is to drive quicker than his team mate and stay out of trouble in the race. He has proven he is as good as anyone on the grid on his day so it's a matter of finding the lost mojo in him.

[Robinho]

Translation: if you're still crap in Sepang, don't even think about blaming the car.

snap!

[odykas]

Webbo = Ferrari = 2013 .................................................. .................please..

Sorry, I would prefer Massa http://www.desismileys.com/smileys/desismileys_6595.gif

[Tazio]

They bring trulli in for Mugello and if Massa's form continue as is (and yes I get it's just the first race of a new season) but if it continues they could bring in Trulli and the crowd would go wild. Or they could bring in Sutil if Peres is not available. Sh!t just bring in Fisi. :s pinhead:F1: Trulli Linked With Massa’s Ferrari Seat


:s ailor: As Felipe Massa comes under fire, Jarno Trulli is being touted as a possible replacement at Ferrari...
F1: Trulli Linked With Massa's Ferrari Seat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-jarno-trulli-linked-with-felipe-massas-ferrari-seat/)

[odykas]

Not even pino believes this story :p :

[pino]

Not even pino believes this story :p :

Actually Jarno and Perez are the only drivers whom have been suggested by Autosprint chief-editor Alberto Sabbatini to replace Massa, but I believe Ferrari will stick with Felipe until the end of the season. Here's the article (italian only sorry) :p :

http://blog.auto.it/autosprint/03/19/il-caso-massa-richiede-una-decisione-drastica/

btw Autosprint has also started a poll asking who should replace Massa, here the results so far :

Barrichello 33 %
Jarno 21%
Perez 20%
Massa 7.4%
Kobayashi 6%
Filippi 4%

[Bagwan]

Actually Jarno and Perez are the only drivers whom have been suggested by Autosprint chief-editor Alberto Sabbatini to replace Massa, but I believe Ferrari will stick with Felipe until the end of the season. Here's the article (italian only sorry) :p :

http://blog.auto.it/autosprint/03/19/il-caso-massa-richiede-una-decisione-drastica/

btw Autosprint has also started a poll asking who should replace Massa, here the results so far :

Barrichello 33 %
Jarno 21%
Perez 20%
Massa 7.4%
Kobayashi 6%
Filippi 4%

Hard to say whether Rubens would go back now , or whether he would get a hero's welcome if he did .
But , given he drove around the Red Shoe's pointy car for so long , he would be the most adaptable one to sit in the seat .
They just might have a few of his throttle traces on hand as well , and would likely find a happy place in the set-up for him quite quickly .

But Luca would probably not want to back-track in that way , because it would evoke memories of the past , before he stirred the red pot .

But , an Italian is a different story .
They tossed Fisi in for pure sentiment , when Felipe was recovering .
Nice guy Jarno is the perfect choice , if the Tifosi lose faith in Felipe .

He can bring the wine .
And , I would think he could understand the honour to be had in a number 2 role , and play it well as a rear gunner .
After all , he is famous for the "Trulli train" , so who better to be number 2 for the Italian team .

Go , Jarno !

[steveaki13]

Trulli would be interesting. I don't suppose Massa will be replaced this early but to be under this pressure after 1 race doesn't bode well.

[Knock-on]

Please, please, please Rubens. I have him for my 3rd driver in the Fantasy F1. :D

[DexDexter]

Best available driver to replace Massa is IMO Alguersuari, he's young, got some experience and drove very well last year in the second half of the season.

[Dave B]

Hard to say whether Rubens would go back now , or whether he would get a hero's welcome if he did .
But , given he drove around the Red Shoe's pointy car for so long , he would be the most adaptable one to sit in the seat .
They just might have a few of his throttle traces on hand as well , and would likely find a happy place in the set-up for him quite quickly .


Genuinely surprised and impressed you didn't suggest everybody's favourite Canadian baggy-overall-wearing guitar-bothering has been :p

[steveaki13]

Genuinely surprised and impressed you didn't suggest everybody's favourite Canadian baggy-overall-wearing guitar-bothering has been :p

Of course..... Jacques is the man its a certainty.

[truefan72]

F1: Trulli Linked With Massa's Ferrari Seat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-jarno-trulli-linked-with-felipe-massas-ferrari-seat/)

In reading this article I'm a bit surprised.
I thought the FIA mandated that you could not change your chassis design once the season started, let alone develop a new car that requires a new crash test.
...or does Ferrari have special dispensation to change their car design whenever they decide to??

[Malbec]

Genuinely surprised and impressed you didn't suggest everybody's favourite Canadian baggy-overall-wearing guitar-bothering has been :p

Bryan Adams?

[Malbec]

In reading this article I'm a bit surprised.
I thought the FIA mandated that you could not change your chassis design once the season started, let alone develop a new car that requires a new crash test.
...or does Ferrari have special dispensation to change their car design whenever they decide to??

Teams can develop a new car if they want, but if the monocoque is significantly different from the original design they have to resubmit the car to new crash tests. I don't think this is new.

[Roamy]

Perez is the only logical answer unless ferrari wants the future and then Alexander Rossi is the guy.

[Tazio]

Please, please, please Rubens. I have him for my 3rd driver in the Fantasy F1. :D
I think Rubens would be great for the team, the fans love him, and if the car comes good he could win a race or two!.

[longisland]

As I said before, there is no need for Ferrari to replace Massa if he starts performing. He spun few times early in the season in 2008 and yet it was his best season to date. I think the team should decide when they return to Eurpoe. I would suggest to keep an eye on FELIPE NASR; his performance in the states has been very impressing.

[F1boat]

Well, Ferrari want Felipe to be 2nd driver and that's what he is now... it is difficult to have it both ways, so I say keep him.

[EuroTroll]

Well, Ferrari want Felipe to be 2nd driver and that's what he is now... it is difficult to have it both ways, so I say keep him.

I'm sure they would like their 2nd driver to be just behind their 1st...

[F1boat]

Ah, I accidentally deleted my reply... crap. In summary, I think that a driver is not very motivated when he is number two and that's why I am not surprised by Felipe's results.

[pino]

Ah, I accidentally deleted my reply... crap. In summary, I think that a driver is not very motivated when he is number two and that's why I am not surprised by Felipe's results.

There must be a reason why Massa is a number 2 don't you think ? ;)

[F1boat]

There must be a reason why Massa is a number 2 don't you think ? ;)

He is not as good as Alonso, but the team order in Germany broke him. Note that I am not saying that I'm against team orders, I only think that with clear second driver these are the results which come when you have a slow car. Note Barrichello in 2005 or Irvine in 1996.

[SGWilko]

I appreciate this is the Massa thread, but I have to say that I think Ferrari are currently in panic mode.

They have sacked a number of key people, in the mistaken belief that new blood will improve the car. Well, maybe it will, but these things take time.

No one wants to see Ferrari return to the 'new team manager every 5 minutes' of the late 80's early 90's, as that just sucks the life out of a team.

Trouble is, Luca is distracted with his political aspirations, and is using his position at the helm of the team to show how he - gets things done. They need to stop reading the Italian press, because they will find themselves deeper in the brown stuff if they lose rational thought.

Massa I think is a very talented driver - we have seen this - but he needs the team around him. His '09 accident so soon after the bitter dissapointment of 2008, and then the arrival of Alonso has demoralised Massa to such an extent, that he no longer has any self belief.

Now, I don't like Alonso much because of what happened in 2007, but there is no denying the fact that he is one of, if not the best and most complete F1 pilots out there right now. Without him, I feel Ferrari would be nowhere right now.

I wish them well, because as much as I am loathe to admit it, F1 would be a little bit poorer without them.

[MAX_THRUST]

I'd love to see a four team battle this year. AS for Massa, I don't love and i dont hate him, but he is not doing enough to be a good number 2 driver for Ferrari right now. They want to win the constructors as well as the drivers title. So the car needs to improve, Alonso drove the wheels off the thing to get points, so Massa looked poor when he couldn't keep up with the other midfielders, and thats what he looked like. I dont doubt his talent, the car isn't to his liking, as its probably designed for Alonso.

[steveaki13]

Yer I don't think Ferrari will replace him after 2 races. But I can see a change after 5 or 6 if he is very poor

[F1boat]

He was OK today IMO. Alonso was in front of Perez and Maldonado, Massa was in front of Senna and Koba. Obviously Ferrari, Williams-Renault and Sauber are pretty even right now.

[EuroTroll]

He was OK today IMO. Alonso was in front of Perez and Maldonado, Massa was in front of Senna and Koba. Obviously Ferrari, Williams-Renault and Sauber are pretty even right now.

Yup. 0.4 secs off Alonso in Q2. That's not too bad.

[Knock-on]

Yup. 0.4 secs off Alonso in Q2. That's not too bad.

Agree. That amount of time off your team mate and people are slapping him on the back and carrying on as if he'd won the race.

His Goose is approaching cremation.

[EuroTroll]

Agree. That amount of time off your team mate and people are slapping him on the back and carrying on as if he'd won the race.

His Goose is approaching cremation.

Well, if he was always less than half a second off Alonso, there wouldn't be a huge problem..

[F1boat]

I hope that he will deliver, I kinda like him. I will always fondy remember his valiant effort against Hamilton in 2008.

[jens]

Massa was more competitive this time, but let's see, how does the race unfold. Last week he had big problems with tyre degradation.

[Garry Walker]

Hopefully he won't embarrass himself this time.

[F1boat]

Yes. With the new car, hopefully no tyre problems.

[MAX_THRUST]

I can't see Perez going to Ferrari this season if the Sauber is doing better. Interesting Alonso wants Massa to stay. Alonso wouldn't want another fast team mate as he did with Lewis. Perez could upset the apple cart.

[N4D13]

I can't see Perez going to Ferrari this season if the Sauber is doing better. Interesting Alonso wants Massa to stay. Alonso wouldn't want another fast team mate as he did with Lewis. Perez could upset the apple cart.
Pérez looks like quite a decent driver, but would he be THAT fast? He looks like a fine driver, but it doesn't seem to me that he is the kind of driver who would set the world alight.

[N4D13]

Pérez looks like quite a decent driver, but would he be THAT fast? He looks like a fine driver, but it doesn't seem to me that he is the kind of driver who would set the world alight.
Allow me to introduce myself as a candidate for the 2012 Humple Pie awards. I think we might have a winner here.

[BDunnell]

Allow me to introduce myself as a candidate for the 2012 Humple Pie awards. I think we might have a winner here.

Bit early to say after one race of abnormal conditions, I feel, but let's see!

[Hawkmoon]

Pérez looks like quite a decent driver, but would he be THAT fast? He looks like a fine driver, but it doesn't seem to me that he is the kind of driver who would set the world alight.

Do you want to re-think this statement after today's race? :D

Perhaps Ferrari should simply run as a 1 car team for the rest of the year and use the second car as test mule. Whack a whole bunch of experimental parts on the second car and see what works. It's not like they are going to lose much as they only have one car that can score points as it is. Replace Massa with a development driver and use the races as glorified test sessions.

[aryan]

Anyway, whether it was the order in Germany or the accident or whatever else, stick a fork in Massa. I think his F1 career is over soon.

[jens]

Even when Alonso is able to win a race, Massa can't get points, even though he was running in Top10 earlier on.

But I certainly wouldn't advise Pérez to make a mid-season switch, because Sauber is really fast and he is well-adapted to the car. But that second place was an ominous sign, who is likely to take over te Ferrari drive in 2013. :)

[Hawkmoon]

Even when Alonso is able to win a race, Massa can't get points, even though he was running in Top10 earlier on.

But I certainly wouldn't advise Pérez to make a mid-season switch, because Sauber is really fast and he is well-adapted to the car. But that second place was an ominous sign, who is likely to take over te Ferrari drive in 2013. :)

One thing to consider is the development potential of each team. Sauber have created good cars out of the box before but fallen behind in the development race. That Sauber looks pretty bare in terms of sponsorship and there's little chance that they will out-develop Ferrari over the course of a season. So even if they had the quicker car in Malaysia and Perez would be taking a step backwards, by seasons end I'm pretty confident the Ferrari is going to be a fair bit quicker.

[Tazio]

Even when Alonso is able to win a race, Massa can't get points, even though he was running in Top10 earlier on.

But I certainly wouldn't advise Pérez to make a mid-season switch, because Sauber is really fast and he is well-adapted to the car. But that second place was an ominous sign, who is likely to take over te Ferrari drive in 2013. :)

Mar.25 (GMM/Inautonews.com) Amid speculation regarding Felipe Massa’s immediate future, Sergio Perez’s father has revealed that Ferrari approached Sauber.

Earlier, Sauber driver Perez played down the rumours about Massa’s future, including the suggestion he was at the very top of Ferrari’s replacement list.

“Sergio is focused one hundred per cent on (performing in) Malaysia,” the 22-year-old Mexican’s father Antonio is quoted by the Spanish-language Medio Tiempo.

Perez snr’s son is the cream of Ferrari’s development driver ‘academy’ programme
At the very least, Perez is a candidate for Massa’s seat next year.

“That would be a good package,” the Mexican answered when asked about the potential pairing of his son with Fernando Alonso.
“Since last year, Ferrari has had three drivers: Alonso, Massa and Perez,” he said.

“‘Checo’ has a great relationship with the team but I can say today that Perez is signed only with Peter Sauber.”

Nonetheless, it has been suggested Ferrari made an approach to Sauber recently, amid Massa’s performance slump.

“Yes, Monisha (Kaltenborn), who is the chief executive of Sauber, confirmed that Ferrari people approached her to talk about Sergio,” said his father Antonio.

At the very least, Perez is a candidate for Massa’s seat next year.


Ferrari approached Sauber amid Massa rumours (http://www.inautonews.com/ferrari-approached-sauber-amid-massa-rumours)

[Garry Walker]

Massa was disgraceful.

[veeten]

I give it by Bahrain... if nothing changes, expect there to be a switch when they get back to the eurozone.

[pino]

A switch with whom?

[F1boat]

Sergio...

[pino]

Sergio...

Forget it...for this season ;)

[Bagwan]

Forget it...for this season ;)

You're right , Pino .
It should be Jarno now , and Sergio can come in for next season .

Thanks for the memories , Felipe .

[ArrowsFA1]

A Massa - Perez switch makes sense for a few reasons:

1. Perez has been on Ferrari's radar for a while, and IIRC he has already tested with them
2. He's in their good books for not beating Alonso today
3. He has shown real potential since his GP2 days and could be a Ferrari driver long-term
3. Massa could remain in F1 with his old team Sauber because I don't see anyone else signing him

[jens]

A Massa - Perez switch makes sense for a few reasons:

3. Massa could remain in F1 with his old team Sauber because I don't see anyone else signing him

But the switch doesn't make any sense from Sauber's point of view. Why would they want this massively underperforming driver called Massa? And they don't have a good replacement lined up to replace Pérez yet. Reserve driver Gutiérrez is still too 'green'. Although, if pushed, I would take a gamble on him above Massa on current form...

[BDunnell]

A Massa - Perez switch makes sense for a few reasons:

1. Perez has been on Ferrari's radar for a while, and IIRC he has already tested with them
2. He's in their good books for not beating Alonso today
3. He has shown real potential since his GP2 days and could be a Ferrari driver long-term
3. Massa could remain in F1 with his old team Sauber because I don't see anyone else signing him

But against that, I don't believe Perez would be performing as well in a Ferrari.

[N4D13]

But against that, I don't believe Perez would be performing as well in a Ferrari.
Well, not yet, that's for certain. But Ferrari is very likely to improve substantially during the season, while the same cannot be said of Sauber. At the time, Ferrari is close to Sauber, or perhaps even behind them, but I would be very surprised if they didn't manage to turn things around in a couple of races. I would expect Ferrari to be much faster from Montmeló onwards.

It would be also a huge chance for Pérez to get a drive in a top team, which Sauber isn't. There are very little top drives available (it looks like there won't be any room in Red Bull and McLaren for some time), so this is a chance that Pérez shouldn't let go away.

That said, sponsorship might be a huge problem - Sauber must be getting loads of money thanks to Carlos Slim's companies and odds are that they won't let Pérez go away just like that, because it wouldn't go well with the sponsors. If Ferrari were to replace Massa, I would find it more likely to hire Alguersuari, Sutil or Trulli.

[ArrowsFA1]

But the switch doesn't make any sense from Sauber's point of view.
Very true.

[janneppi]

It would be also a huge chance for Pérez to get a drive in a top team, which Sauber isn't. There are very little top drives available (it looks like there won't be any room in Red Bull and McLaren for some time), so this is a chance that Pérez shouldn't let go away.


It's also a huge risk to go to single car team like Ferrari, you're not really allowed to compete on even ground and there's a big risk to be labeled as a no.2 driver for years. IMO it's better for Perez to build his career in a midfield team where bad performance doesn't result in Italian newspapers screaming for you to be sacked.

[EuroTroll]

Surely whether it makes sense or not is a function of how much money changes hands. ;)

[Big Ben]

Time to go for Felipe baby.

[Ranger]

A Massa - Perez switch makes sense for a few reasons:

2. He's in their good books for not beating Alonso today


:\ Really?

[Big Ben]

A Massa - Perez switch makes sense for a few reasons:

I don't get it. Why should Massa be promoted after these couple of races :laugh: :p :

[Dave B]

But the switch doesn't make any sense from Sauber's point of view.


Sauber have a history of doing whatever their engines supplier tell them, whether it makes sense or not.

[N. Jones]

I don't get it. Why should Massa be promoted after these couple of races :laugh: :p :
:laugh:

Does anyone think Peter Sauber would go for a trade of Perez for Massa, and maybe some cash? I think if anyone could get Felipe's confidence back it is Peter Sauber, who took him when Massa was Ferrari's test driver.

[N4D13]

:laugh:

Does anyone think Peter Sauber would go for a trade of Perez for Massa, and maybe some cash? I think if anyone could get Felipe's confidence back it is Peter Sauber, who took him when Massa was Ferrari's test driver.
It would have to be a very large sum. Dropping Pérez for Massa couldn't possibly go well with Slim, and it might be a poor move from Sauber in the long term.

[Robinho]

Shocking again it has to be said. I saw no problems, extra pit stops, spins, mechanical woes that meant he was fighting caterhams while Alonso was fighting for a win. Thought it was fitting that in the shot of alonso taking the flag, massa is 100m up the road starting his last lap.

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

[CavallinoRampante]

:laugh:

Does anyone think Peter Sauber would go for a trade of Perez for Massa, and maybe some cash? I think if anyone could get Felipe's confidence back it is Peter Sauber, who took him when Massa was Ferrari's test driver.

Excuse me guys, Perez is already a Ferrari driver.... sauber has no say in that. Just like Massa once was, Perez came from the Ferrari drivers program.
Ferrari has the option to call him or not.

[Tazio]

It's also a huge risk to go to single car team like Ferrari, you're not really allowed to compete on even ground and there's a big risk to be labeled as a no.2 driver for years. IMO it's better for Perez to build his career in a midfield team where bad performance doesn't result in Italian newspapers screaming for you to be sacked. That would be much worse than having British tabloids screaming for his head if he joins any team other than Red Bull or Lotus. The Swiss love him for obvious reasons; however he may not be content spending his entire career in the midfield! I think the guy is ready to take the next step, and I bet he has the attachments to handle any British, German, French, or Italian tabloids. If not I don't want him on my team :s mokin:

[odykas]

I don't expect to see any switch in this season.
I think Ferrari is focused on how to improve the car in order to enable Alonso fight for wins.
If the car gets better, especially in terms of handling, I expect to see Massa closer to Alonso.

[ArrowsFA1]

:\ Really?
I refer you to Dave's post (http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/151604-felipe-massa-4.html#post1020065) m'lud :D

[Knock-on]

Reposting this here because Pino doesn't want to consider what driver will replace Massa and closed the thread so sorry for taking this thread away from it's title and discussing people other thn Massa ;)


Massa replacement


It seems inevitable that Felipe won’t make it to the end of the season but who will his replacement?

Perez looks likely after his supreme drive in Malaysia especially after the coded message from the team which I ran through a translator and it said:

"Sergio, I know you want your first win but we want to keep Ferrari engines and it might do you a huge favour if you don't embarrass your next team and your future lead driver by overtaking them in the B spec Ferrari. We tried to do it subtly by bringing you in wayyy too late when it was obvious to everyone and their dog that slicks were seconds a lap faster. However, you didn't get the hint and closed the gap in a couple of laps so I suggest you find a bit of run-off where you can make it look like you cock up a bit and give Fred an easy run to the line. Cheers. Uncle Peter.

Any othe strong contenders?

[Firstgear]

Ferrari doesn't need to panic yet. Massa made a mistake in Australia (everyone has an occasional ooopsy), and yesterday was a wet race. He's always been a "Gurke" in the wet (remember 5 offs/spins in silverstone?). His qualifying was ok. Once we're back to more normal, dry races he'll be back to his old 2 - 4 places behind Alonso like he's expected to be.

[pino]

Reposting this here because Pino doesn't want to consider what driver will replace Massa and closed the thread so sorry for taking this thread away from it's title and discussing people other thn Massa ;)


Massa replacement


It seems inevitable that Felipe won’t make it to the end of the season but who will his replacement?



knockie, Massa's going nowhere, he will finish the season at Ferrari and there won't be any replacement trust me ;) We have discussed this in here the whole weekend and I don't see any reasons to have another thread about it. The rest of your post is bull... :p :

[jens]

Just stunning, what has happened to a driver. I think it could be safe to assume that it was his twin-brother, who was collecting poles and wins four years ago. :p : I still remember qualifying for the 2008 Singapore Grand Prix. Hamilton lost by 0.6s, Kimi by 0.8secs. It was total ownage by Felipe. We haven't seen this kind of guy for a long time already...

By the way, while talking about returns from injuries. One day I checked that after his comeback Wendlinger was losing by 4 (!) seconds a lap to Frentzen in qualis. No wonder he didn't last long...

[Dave B]

knockie, Massa's going nowhere, he will finish the season at Ferrari and there won't be any replacement trust me ;) We have discussed this in here the whole weekend and I don't see any reasons to have another thread about it. The rest of your post is bull... :p :

Bookmarking this for the "Humble Pie" thread in a few months... :p

[Malbec]

Excuse me guys, Perez is already a Ferrari driver.... sauber has no say in that. Just like Massa once was, Perez came from the Ferrari drivers program.
Ferrari has the option to call him or not.

Perez signed his contract with Sauber before he got signed up to Ferrari. I suspect the first contract takes precedence over the second.

Peter Sauber is long accustomed to spotting hot talent and selling them on to top teams. Look at Kimi and Massa for instance, who gave them their first chance in F1? I doubt very much that his contracts aren't watertight with just this kind of scenario in mind.

[Ranger]

Reposting this here because Pino doesn't want to consider what driver will replace Massa and closed the thread so sorry for taking this thread away from it's title and discussing people other thn Massa ;)


Massa replacement


It seems inevitable that Felipe won’t make it to the end of the season but who will his replacement?

Perez looks likely after his supreme drive in Malaysia especially after the coded message from the team which I ran through a translator and it said:

"Sergio, I know you want your first win but we want to keep Ferrari engines and it might do you a huge favour if you don't embarrass your next team and your future lead driver by overtaking them in the B spec Ferrari. We tried to do it subtly by bringing you in wayyy too late when it was obvious to everyone and their dog that slicks were seconds a lap faster. However, you didn't get the hint and closed the gap in a couple of laps so I suggest you find a bit of run-off where you can make it look like you cock up a bit and give Fred an easy run to the line. Cheers. Uncle Peter.

Any othe strong contenders?

I'm pretty sure he won't be replaced this year.

[Hawkmoon]

Perez signed his contract with Sauber before he got signed up to Ferrari. I suspect the first contract takes precedence over the second.

Peter Sauber is long accustomed to spotting hot talent and selling them on to top teams. Look at Kimi and Massa for instance, who gave them their first chance in F1? I doubt very much that his contracts aren't watertight with just this kind of scenario in mind.

I'm not so sure that's right. I'm pretty sure Perez was placed at Sauber by Ferrari much the same way that McLaren placed Di Resta at Force India. Isn't his manager Nicholas Todt?

If Ferrari want him bad enough they'll get him sooner or later and if Massa keeps going the way he is it will be sooner rather than later.

[Knock-on]

From last year?

Luca di Montezemolo issues Felipe Massa warning | Ferrari | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/64934.html)


Ferrari president Luca di Montezemolo has issued a warning to Felipe Massa that "he'll have to prove himself next season".

From last week. A public vote of confidence?

Massa has the support of Ferrari | Setanta (http://www.setanta.com/ie/Articles/2012/03/23/Massa-has-the-support-of-Ferrari/gnid-135816/)


"It is important at the moment to have good confidence around him," Domenicali said.

Now, usually when the head honcho's come out with public votes of confidence, they hve a few weeks before the chop!!

[Ranger]

From last year?

Luca di Montezemolo issues Felipe Massa warning | Ferrari | Formula 1 news, live F1 | ESPN F1 (http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/64934.html)



From last week. A public vote of confidence?

Massa has the support of Ferrari | Setanta (http://www.setanta.com/ie/Articles/2012/03/23/Massa-has-the-support-of-Ferrari/gnid-135816/)

Now, usually when the head honcho's come out with public votes of confidence, they hve a few weeks before the chop!!

I can't rule out the possibility that Ferrari are completely stupid, but it won't happen.

Remember what happened last time Felipe was replaced mid-season?

Badoer qualified and finished last on both outings and Fisichella (who nearly won for Force India at Spa-Francorchamps) struggled out of the points for the rest of the season.

Go figure.

[Tazio]

struggled out of the points for the rest of the season.



Fisi scored two points after replacing Badoer.

[Ranger]

.



Fisi scored two points after replacing Badoer.

No he did not.

[Tazio]

You are correct !I got my scoring systems mixed up!

[jens]

I can't rule out the possibility that Ferrari are completely stupid, but it won't happen.

Remember what happened last time Felipe was replaced mid-season?

Badoer qualified and finished last on both outings and Fisichella (who nearly won for Force India at Spa-Francorchamps) struggled out of the points for the rest of the season.

Go figure.

That's true. :) While it is also true that Massa himself isn't far from badoeresque form any more either... Which could lead Ferrari to conclude that these is nothing to lose and while the new guy may well struggle to adapt to the car, it really can't get worse with at least a chance of an actual improvement.

But I doubt Sauber would let Pérez go too easily in mid-season. Here are claims like "Sauber does whatever Ferrari as an engine supplier wants if the conditions/money are right", but this time the issue is that Sauber is largely dependant on the sponsorship of Carlos Slim companies. It looks like it is a major source of cash for the small Swiss team. Would Ferrari outpay Telmex to get Pérez? This is a huge amount of money, worth much more than hiring a driver normally is. Ferrari would basically need to become a major Sauber's sponsor if they were to buy out Pérez... Of course we don't know details of contracts and whether Telmex really needs a Mexican in the Sauber team and whether the amount of money they pay to the team is dependent on the nationality of the driver...

[fandango]

At the end of one of the qualifying sessions there was a radio message from Rob Smedley to Massa where it sounded like he was trying to re-assure Felipe that he did a good job. However, the gist of the message was that he only 4 tenths off Alonso's pace, so that was fine. To me, when an experienced driver in a top team is supposed to be satisfied with being that much slower than his team-mate things are not good.

It doesn't make a lot of sense to bring in Pérez mid-season for the reasons mentioned by others, but Alguersuari? Anyone think he could do a better job?

[Bagwan]

Massa will get one more chance to get a little closer to Alonso .
It was wet , and they already knew he was having troubles so it wouldn't exactly be a fair test .

He must get to grips with the tires , but , I think it's more down to him having to drive the Alonso styled car .

If Malaysia had been dry , and Felipe still so far down compared to his team-mate , I think phones would be ringing at agent offices by now .

No matter how fond they are of Felipe , they cannot wait for him forever .
They spoke last year of him having to prove himself to keep the seat .

While it may seem unfair to not give him much time , the other side of the coin is that a new face might have time to actually mount a challenge if given the car early enough in the season .

Felipe may not be done completely , as it may just be too difficult a car for him to get on top of .
But for the Slim connection between he and Sauber , Perez looks the ideal candidate . However , the Ferrari is no Sauber , in terms of being a handfull , and he might have some troubles as well .
Mind you , it's likely that Felipe would get on well with that Sauber looking so much less pointy .

Better Ferrari lets Perez make his name at Sauber , and he can graduate next year .

There are other good drivers out there , and some who have experience in the Alonso-mobiles , and ran a lot closer to him .

Trulli was close enough , and he's Italian as well .
Jacques would be better than Mousa (Happy now , Dave ?) , and would put yet another world champion on the circuit .

Felipe has one more chance , as I see it .

[F1boat]

Thought about something ridiculous and decided to share it with you. Maybe a Rosberg-Massa swap can work. Felipe will be happy with Michael and Nico will have a new car, to try to deliver. Not gonna happen, but sounds curious.

[N4D13]

Thought about something ridiculous and decided to share it with you. Maybe a Rosberg-Massa swap can work. Felipe will be happy with Michael and Nico will have a new car, to try to deliver. Not gonna happen, but sounds curious.
To be honest, while most people were discussing the possibility of an Alonso-Webber lineup in 2013, I was wondering why Ferrari wouldn't bring Rosberg in instead. Nico hasn't proven himself yet, but, at worst, he might be a very reliable no. 2 driver, perhaps even more than Webber.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Rosberg in a Ferrari - although I must admit there are more likely options. The one thing I don't expect to see is Massa driving a Mercedes - in fact, I would say that 2012 will be the last year in which he has a top drive.

[schmenke]

Does Mercedes not want to maintain an all German lineup?

[truefan72]

Thought about something ridiculous and decided to share it with you. Maybe a Rosberg-Massa swap can work. Felipe will be happy with Michael and Nico will have a new car, to try to deliver. Not gonna happen, but sounds curious.

that doesn't sound as ridiculous as you think, and I actually think it might work for both teams.
That, in fact is a pretty good trade IMO.
Massa can happily do his thing with Schumi taking the lead, and I think Nico would come to grips with an improving Ferrari and might actually win his first race.

This is probably the best suggestion I've heard in a while :up:

[truefan72]

Does Mercedes not want to maintain an all German lineup?

I think Mercedes want to win first and possibly focus on Schumi as well

another option is that Massa is all together out of an f1 seat with rosberg moving to Ferrari, and perhaps Sutil joining Mercedes ( whoops, I guess that all german lineup is back ;) )
or Buemi, or Algeusari. Anyway, I think the ball is firmly in Ferrari's court right now. Massa is heading to the factory for "analysis" but as you said earlier, he perhaps has one more poor performance left before they simply pull the trigger on a deal.

[aryan]

To be honest, while most people were discussing the possibility of an Alonso-Webber lineup in 2013, I was wondering why Ferrari wouldn't bring Rosberg in instead. Nico hasn't proven himself yet, but, at worst, he might be a very reliable no. 2 driver, perhaps even more than Webber.


Rosberg and Webber were actually teammates in 2006, and Webber beat him soundly in that dog of a Williams.

Sure Webber had a bad year last year, but he is a multiple GP winner and came very close to becoming a WDC. Neither of which can be said of Rosberg.

[N4D13]

Rosberg and Webber were actually teammates in 2006, and Webber beat him soundly in that dog of a Williams.

Sure Webber had a bad year last year, but he is a multiple GP winner and came very close to becoming a WDC. Neither of which can be said of Rosberg.
But that was six years ago and, much more importantly, it was Rosberg's maiden season. He also showed a lot of promise in that season (e.g., doing the fastest lap in his first race), but he hasn't had the chance to prove whether he has what it takes to be a top driver. I'd rather choose Rosberg over Webber so as to give Nico a chance and see what he's really made of. ;)

[odykas]

Massa will keep on driving for Ferrari.
Not only this year but also 2013.
Mark my words ;)

[Knock-on]

Massa will keep on driving for Ferrari.
Not only this year but also 2013.
Mark my words ;)

OK, you've had enough to drink now. Time for a little lay down and nurseykins will tuck you in :D

[F1boat]

I think Mercedes want to win first and possibly focus on Schumi as well

another option is that Massa is all together out of an f1 seat with rosberg moving to Ferrari, and perhaps Sutil joining Mercedes ( whoops, I guess that all german lineup is back ;) )
or Buemi, or Algeusari. Anyway, I think the ball is firmly in Ferrari's court right now. Massa is heading to the factory for "analysis" but as you said earlier, he perhaps has one more poor performance left before they simply pull the trigger on a deal.

Thank you!

[ArrowsFA1]

Massa has decided to cancel a trip home after the Malaysian Grand Prix in order to travel to Ferrari's factory in Maranello to try to get to the bottom of his problems.
Ferrari boss Stefano Domenicali says Massa's poor start to 2012 can be overcome - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/98433)

Stefano Domenicali comes up with the classic defence: "We remember how [2008] ended, with the Brazilian actually world champion, even if it was just for a few seconds."

No Stefano. Actually Massa has never been World Champion, not even for a few seconds. It's like declaring Markus Winkelhock the winner of the 2007 European GP :p :

[F1boat]

He was close. As close as Lewis a year before. Sometimes luck separates champions from good drivers, as Lauda said once.

[ArrowsFA1]

He was close.
Indeed he was :cool: but being close, or nearly, or almost is not "actually" as Stefano would have us believe.

If Felipe was turning in performances like he was in 2008 then this wouldn't be a topic for discussion.

[Firstgear]

Thought about something ridiculous and decided to share it with you. Maybe a Rosberg-Massa swap can work. Felipe will be happy with Michael and Nico will have a new car, to try to deliver. Not gonna happen, but sounds curious.
Massa did quite well when he had Michael's hand to hold - so it would probably work out well for him. But this would be a very short sighted move for Mercedes, if Michael decides to hang 'em up again at the end of this year.

[driveace]

though Vetel was being lined up for Mercedes,and that Michael was warming the seat for him !

[F1boat]

Vettel is no fool, I doubt that he will abandon Red Bull for Mercedes. The Red Bull is still a better car.

[jens]

Reading the suggestions above, unlike some I don't see any point in the Rosberg-Massa swap. Massa has lost the plot so much that I really don't see, what Mercedes has to gain from hiring him. I'd rather take someone like di Resta or Hülkenberg if there was an opening, and look to the future. Heck, I think someone like Heidfeld would be a more dependable points collecter too.

Rosberg on the other hand doesn't seem to be a driver, who would feel comfortable about being a second driver (which he would likely be at Ferrari alongside Alonso). Remember in the past he has rejected the opportunity to drive alongside Hamilton. And also a difficult car (like current Ferrari) may not play to his strengths, considering how he is suffering with tyre degradation in Mercedes.

Pérez would make more sense to Ferrari and somehow he doesn't strike to me as a guy, who would be too concerned about getting beaten by Alonso, but as a very young driver would just enjoy further career progression (which Ferrari would be). While Rosberg is still hoping that Mercedes will become a top team and he has in fact signed a long-term deal with them. So even if you like to suggest it, there is no way he is going to Ferrari any time soon.

[George6890]

I like Felipe, I always have done since he showed great dignity in being beaten to the WDC by Hamilton in 2008 and he seems like a genuinely nice guy.

I do, however, think his days in red are numbered, no matter what Domenicali says. He doesn't seem the same person in terms of body language and spirit as he was from 2008-2010.

The thing that bothers me, though, is he believes that the events of 2008, 2009 and 2010 haven't affected him. Do you all think he genuinely believes this or it's just P.R. speak? It seems the paddock believe that he's a changed man.

[F1boat]

Reading the suggestions above, unlike some I don't see any point in the Rosberg-Massa swap. Massa has lost the plot so much that I really don't see, what Mercedes has to gain from hiring him. I'd rather take someone like di Resta or Hülkenberg if there was an opening, and look to the future. Heck, I think someone like Heidfeld would be a more dependable points collecter too.

Rosberg on the other hand doesn't seem to be a driver, who would feel comfortable about being a second driver (which he would likely be at Ferrari alongside Alonso). Remember in the past he has rejected the opportunity to drive alongside Hamilton. And also a difficult car (like current Ferrari) may not play to his strengths, considering how he is suffering with tyre degradation in Mercedes.

Pérez would make more sense to Ferrari and somehow he doesn't strike to me as a guy, who would be too concerned about getting beaten by Alonso, but as a very young driver would just enjoy further career progression (which Ferrari would be). While Rosberg is still hoping that Mercedes will become a top team and he has in fact signed a long-term deal with them. So even if you like to suggest it, there is no way he is going to Ferrari any time soon.

That's why in my first post I said that my idea is ridiculous :D

[odykas]

OK, you've had enough to drink now. Time for a little lay down and nurseykins will tuck you in :D

Please wake me up when Massa is replaced.
Untill then ... :s nore:

:p :

[Malbec]

I don't see whats in it for Perez beyond being able to call himself a Ferrari driver.

Massa isn't a rubbish driver, certainly not 0.5-1.0 seconds slower than Alonso rubbish. His difficulties come mainly from problems in managing the tyres compounded by a lack of confidence.

He was at least as quick as Kimi and hardly embarrassed himself against Alonso early in 2010 to the point where Fernando had to barge him out of the way at the pit entry at Shanghai. Massa's fall from grace started in late 2010 after the Hockenheim team orders incident where he lost confidence, then was compounded in 2011 with the switch to Pirellis. This season when he has the tyres 'switched on' in testing according to Ferrari he is as quick as Alonso, the problem is he rarely gets the tyres in their operating window.

He has some of the best race engineers at hand analysing his problems and despite a full winter test schedule hasn't been able to sort it out. On top of this the F2012 is hardly a classic from Ferrari either.

Perez isn't stupid. He knows he lacks experience, in fact it was fascinating to read about how Sauber's tactics were held back by the fact that they had to take into account Perez might have difficulty with slicks on a drying track which is why they were a lap late switching tyres compared to Alonso. He also knows that Alonso is a mightily hard teammate to beat at the best of times.

Replacing Massa will be a huge risk, there is no guarantee whatsoever that Perez will be able to master both the tyre issue at Ferrari and the poor handling of the car especially without the luxury of a full winter testing. He will have seen Luca Badoer and Fisi fail when they replaced Massa in 2009 even with their considerable experience. Despite his success at Sepang Perez will be rapidly forgotten if he switches to Ferrari and fails to get close to Alonso.

I think for Perez the obvious decision is to stay at Sauber till the end of the season then fight for the 2013 Ferrari seat. By that time he will be more experienced and the Ferrari will hopefully be an easier car to drive. He should wait.

[N4D13]

He was at least as quick as Kimi and hardly embarrassed himself against Alonso early in 2010 to the point where Fernando had to barge him out of the way at the pit entry at Shanghai. Massa's fall from grace started in late 2010 after the Hockenheim team orders incident where he lost confidence, then was compounded in 2011 with the switch to Pirellis. This season when he has the tyres 'switched on' in testing according to Ferrari he is as quick as Alonso, the problem is he rarely gets the tyres in their operating window.
As for 2010, I would have to say that he'd been slower than Alonso all season, even in the beginning. In the first races of 2010, Alonso made several mistakes (i.e., he jumped the start at China, which was the reason why he was behind Massa in the first place) which put him behind Massa at times, but Fernando was faster than Felipe for most of the season, even before the Hockenheim race. There's no reason that Felipe has lost a lot of performance since the switch to Pirelli, but he was slower than Alonso before then. Even in the Hockenheim race, the only reason why he was in front of Alonso in the first place was because Vettel held Alonso at the start.*

* Just mentioning Hockenheim as another example of Massa being slower than Alonso. We don't really want to beat THAT dead horse, do we?

[Malbec]

As for 2010, I would have to say that he'd been slower than Alonso all season, even in the beginning. In the first races of 2010, Alonso made several mistakes (i.e., he jumped the start at China, which was the reason why he was behind Massa in the first place) which put him behind Massa at times, but Fernando was faster than Felipe for most of the season, even before the Hockenheim race. There's no reason that Felipe has lost a lot of performance since the switch to Pirelli, but he was slower than Alonso before then. Even in the Hockenheim race, the only reason why he was in front of Alonso in the first place was because Vettel held Alonso at the start.*

* Just mentioning Hockenheim as another example of Massa being slower than Alonso. We don't really want to beat THAT dead horse, do we?

I'm not really going to get involved in some nitpicking debate about Massa's pace in races in 2010, nor did I state that he was quicker than Alonso. I do not recall Massa being routinely 0.5-1.0 s slower than Alonso throughout the 2010 season though, which is the case now. Throughout the 2010 season he was a fraction slower than Alonso on average but the gap widened in 2011 and now there is an absolute chasm between the two. I do not think its a coincidence that the gap widened with the switch to Pirellis and further increased this year with the new compounds.

Nor do I think Massa is alone in failing to get the most out of the new tyres. Rosberg is another good example of someone failing to get them into their operating window while IMO Webber has reduced the gap between himself and Vettel by adapting to them very well.

[Knock-on]

I think Malbec is correct in that Massa has zero confidence at the moment.

When Schumy was his team mate, he was expected to be a solid number 2 but because Schumy was past his peak, he could hold onto his coat tails quite easily. Then he was encouraged to go for it in the Kimi era but again, the year that he did well, Kimi didn't perform to his maximum and was pretty disenchanted.

Then comes Alonso who destroys him mentally and on the track. The team have an alonso Love-in and Massa is ordered to let Alonso through. Massa's a nice guy but not the strongest mentally and this has defeated him. He can't get on top of the car and knows he will always be the number 2 when he thought he had a chance.

And people wonder why he's lost the plot? If he was a horse, he would have been shot by now. Poor Massa should be replaced with any dignity he has left. Who knows, he might work better in the Sauber? It might be the break he needs.

[F1boat]

By the way do they still shoot the old horses? This is horrible.

[pino]

So knockie you are blaming Ferrari for Massa poor results ? :s Also why you think the team is in love with Alonso ? Please answer me that ;)

[Knock-on]

So knockie you are blaming Ferrari for Massa poor results ? :s Also why you think the team is in love with Alonso ? Please answer me that ;)

Pino darling, do you think Ferrari aren't in love with Alonso? Didn't look that way to me last Sunday ;)

Massa is little fragile in the mental department. nice chap and all that but all the "Felipe Baby" geeing him up and massaing his ego cannot cover this up. He's now not even a number 2 and isn't fast enough to destroy anyones race.

[Mia 01]

I don't see whats in it for Perez beyond being able to call himself a Ferrari driver.

Replacing Massa will be a huge risk, there is no guarantee whatsoever that Perez will be able to master both the tyre issue at Ferrari and the poor handling of the car especially without the luxury of a full winter testing. He will have seen Luca Badoer and Fisi fail when they replaced Massa in 2009 even with their considerable experience. Despite his success at Sepang Perez will be rapidly forgotten if he switches to Ferrari and fails to get close to Alonso.

I think for Perez the obvious decision is to stay at Sauber till the end of the season then fight for the 2013 Ferrari seat. By that time he will be more experienced and the Ferrari will hopefully be an easier car to drive. He should wait.

I agree fully with this, IF Felipe don´t get a new contract for next year.

[pino]

Pino darling, do you think Ferrari aren't in love with Alonso? Didn't look that way to me last Sunday ;)

Massa is little fragile in the mental department. nice chap and all that but all the "Felipe Baby" geeing him up and massaing his ego cannot cover this up. He's now not even a number 2 and isn't fast enough to destroy anyones race.

My italian-english is getting worse and worse so let's try it again: yes I agree that the whole Team Ferrari is in love with Alonso and I know why...do you ? ;) As for Massa he will stay at Ferrari until the end of the season, end of the story :p :

[truefan72]

My italian-english is getting worse and worse so let's try it again: yes I agree that the whole Team Ferrari is in love with Alonso and I know why...do you ? ;) As for Massa he will stay at Ferrari until the end of the season, end of the story :p :

let's hope for ferrari's sake that he isn't

[pino]

let's hope for ferrari's sake that he isn't

Wow...didn't know you were a Ferrari fan :up: :p :

[DexDexter]

I'm afraid we're not going to see Massa in F1 next year, his career is all but finished. Sad in a way since in the right environment he could still be a very capable driver.

[truefan72]

Wow...didn't know you were a Ferrari fan :up: :p :

LOL
I'm an F1 fan and really not a ferrari fan
but I do recognize that I'd rather see a competitive 2nd car by ferrari there to spice up the entire spectacle

;)

[TheFamousEccles]

And people wonder why he's lost the plot? If he was a horse, he would have been shot by now. Poor Massa should be replaced with any dignity he has left. Who knows, he might work better in the Sauber? It might be the break he needs.

Precisely! If not Sauber, then some other team worthy of his skills (he has been a contender after all) - get him away from the political environment at Maranello and that would be half the job done.

[steveaki13]

Well Massa is never dull thats for sure, always something happening.

Remeber 2002 his first season, pundits saying he put twice the effort in the steering wheel as needed and he was always near or over the limit.

I remember Silverstone he had 3 spins in first half of the race.

Then 2004-2005 he was great for Sauber.

Then raced brilliantly in 2006 and overshadowed Michael on a few occasions.

2007-2008 he was winning races and had a shot at a world title.

2009-2011 So many crashes, and incidents.

Never a fade into the background driver really.

[jens]

Well Massa is never dull thats for sure, always something happening.

Remeber 2002 his first season, pundits saying he put twice the effort in the steering wheel as needed and he was always near or over the limit.

I remember Silverstone he had 3 spins in first half of the race.

Then 2004-2005 he was great for Sauber.

Then raced brilliantly in 2006 and overshadowed Michael on a few occasions.

2007-2008 he was winning races and had a shot at a world title.

2009-2011 So many crashes, and incidents.

Never a fade into the background driver really.

I'd say Felipe was quite anonymous in 2004-2005 in midfield. Last year he got attention due to accidents with Hamilton, but not much was seen of him in 2010 other than Hockenheim.

[ArrowsFA1]

Precisely! If not Sauber, then some other team worthy of his skills (he has been a contender after all) - get him away from the political environment at Maranello and that would be half the job done.
I don't see another team, other than perhaps Sauber, signing Felipe. He's never been 'hot property' in that sense at any time during his career. The only question at any time has been 'will Ferrari renew his contract', not who's lining up to sign him.

[Malbec]

I don't see another team, other than perhaps Sauber, signing Felipe. He's never been 'hot property' in that sense at any time during his career. The only question at any time has been 'will Ferrari renew his contract', not who's lining up to sign him.

Exactly, there is no reason for Ferrari to find Massa a seat when they can pay him compensation (assuming Massa hasn't already triggered performance related clauses allowing him to be dismissed already) and little commending him to other teams.

Assuming Perez goes to Ferrari I think Sauber will take another risk on a promising rookie as they've done countless times before.

Having said that, I don't think there will be a swap before the season is out.

[truefan72]

I don't see another team, other than perhaps Sauber, signing Felipe. He's never been 'hot property' in that sense at any time during his career. The only question at any time has been 'will Ferrari renew his contract', not who's lining up to sign him.

you sir, are spot on! :up:

[Tazio]

You can file this one under;
desperate times call for desperate measures. :s pin:


Barrichello was voted in an Italian poll as the ideal replacement for the diminutive 30-year-old. When asked about Ferrari, Barrichello said this week: “I want the fans to understand that I don’t have any hard feelings. If they called me today to go drive for them I would go. It was the best team I’ve ever driven for in terms of support, of creativity. :mark:
But there were definitely some spicy episodes.”


Barrichello: Ferrari was the best team I (http://www.forumula1.com/2012/f1/f1-news/barrichello-ferrari-was-the-best-team-ive-driven-for/)

[Bagwan]

You can file this one under;
desperate times call for desperate measures. :s pin:


Barrichello: Ferrari was the best team I (http://www.forumula1.com/2012/f1/f1-news/barrichello-ferrari-was-the-best-team-ive-driven-for/)

Not such a bad idea .
Rubens is still fast , and knows how it works inside the big red doors .
He'd be cheap .
He'd sign , knowing he's #2 .
And , he'd likely sign for just the remainder of the year .

Heck , he'd even have a chance to stick his tongue out at Michael in a right proper way .
That would be worth it to him on it's own .

[Tazio]

^^^^Actually I was referring to Rubens being the one that is desperate. I'd love to see it happen. But if it's a midseason move I'd have to listen to all the yada yada about Ferrari buying drivers contacts out in order to make a change, but then again no matter who they chose in a midseason move I be listening to the same broken record, so why not? ;)

[jens]

Actually now I'm more interested in what Barrichello can accomplish in IndyCar rather than F1, where we have seen everything from him already.

[Bagwan]

^^^^Actually I was referring to Rubens being the one that is desperate. I'd love to see it happen. But if it's a midseason move I'd have to listen to all the yada yada about Ferrari buying drivers contacts out in order to make a change, but then again no matter who they chose in a midseason move I be listening to the same broken record, so why not? ;)

I knew that !

Yada , yada , Rubens can buy them some ice cream , taking a page from the book of one of those paid-off drivers .
And , he could buy you an ice cream , too . I'm sure he wouldn't mind .

Maybe it'd be a Maranello gelato , Dr. Giacomo .

[Bagwan]

Actually now I'm more interested in what Barrichello can accomplish in IndyCar rather than F1, where we have seen everything from him already.

Nah , lots of time for that .
Mr. Adaptable cranked an 8th out of his second race there .

I say parachute Rubens in , and he'll make that punk , Alonso sweat .

[ArrowsFA1]

I say parachute Rubens in , and he'll make that punk , Alonso sweat .
Unlikely. When he was last at Ferrari Rubens always struggled to get anywhere near Schumacher when the car wasn't right, and it certainly isn't now, so he wouldn't trouble Alonso.

[F1boat]

Rubens will never understand that it's time to let it go... best luck to him in Indy Car...

[Bagwan]

Ah yes , the answer to the issues is on it's way .
Next month , at the Gilles tribute , Jacques will drive the old Ferrari .

Then , they'll just shift him into the new car , and the problem is fixed .

Add one more WDC to the line-up .

[Dave B]

Ah yes , the answer to the issues is on it's way .
Next month , at the Gilles tribute , Jacques will drive the old Ferrari .

Then , they'll just shift him into the new car , and the problem is fixed .

Add one more WDC to the line-up .

Apart from you, the only other person hoping for that will be Luca Badoer - just so that he won't go down in history as the worst performer in a Ferrari :laugh:

[Bagwan]

That was for you , Dave , so , good job jumping in there for the first reply .

They could do worse .
Like leaving Massa in there .

In a month , on the 30th anniversary of his father's death , it would be a great tribute to have Jacques slip on a new Ferrari until the end of the year .
Then , they can ask him to stay , as , by the end of the year , they will want him to stay .

[EuroTroll]

You know, for a moment there I thought you were serious, Bagwan. :)

[zako85]

Barrichello is a good racer and a very likable character, but let's get real here. Ferrari, Williams, and other teams want a driver for the long haul, instead of a driver that's pretty much at the end of his Formula 1 career. If Ferrari decides to replace Massa next year, they will go for either someone very young and promising (e.g. Perez) or an older, but still relatively young for F1, and well accomplished driver.

[Bagwan]

You know, for a moment there I thought you were serious, Bagwan. :)

At the risk of causing you to have another "moment" , I'll say I am .

[Tazio]

The former Sauber driver is 150/1 to cause an upset and win around the Sepang circuit
With rain at this moment predicted for all three days, does anyone feel like playing the lottery :D
IMO wet conditions will only exacerbate Massa's struggles
Alonso calls for caution ahead of Chinese Grand Prix | Ladbrokes.com (http://news.ladbrokes.com/en-gb/formula-one/alonso-calls-for-caution-ahead-of-chinese-grand-prix_101749.html)

[F1boat]

He was OK today.

[jens]

He was OK today.

As he was in Malaysian GP qualifying. ;) As we saw, qualifying was tight all through the field, but probably the real gaps will emerge tomorrow.

[F1boat]

I hope that he will do well.

[aryan]

I hope too, for his sake. But you have to wonder if he's good enough to get into points. Baring a freak accident, I doubt it.

[pino]

He will finish on points me thinks :D

[Dave B]

Points, plural? Stranger things have happened...

[Robinho]

He was OK today.

He was terrible today, never closer than 3 tenths to Alonso, most of the time he was 6 tenths or more, and Alonso was hardly setting the world alight

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

[Dave B]

In fairness to Massa, I doubt that anybody could have done much better with that Ferrari today. Tomorrow will be interesting: he finished very nearly a lap down from his team mate in Malaysia so he'll be hoping for a far stronger race. A few more performances like the opening two rounds and he'll be watching on Globo rather than from a red cockpit, I'm certain.

[fandango]

And in fairness to Ferrari, they seem to be giving him every chance to get himself together. There's no crazy knee-jerk reaction to his (terrible) performance so far this year. However, he's looking like he's on the way out. I hope I'm proved wrong...

[Tazio]

I thought he upped his game a little, after all he is starting on the same row as Vettel :s mokin:
I heard an interview with him on SpeedTV and he said that he thinks the car will be better in race trim.
This isn't the first time he has had slow starts, but it is the most glaring. He is not as fast as his team mate, and he is not as adaptable.
He put the car on the sixth row, and to be honest that is about where Ferrari rates, at least in quail on this track. I really hope he turns his season around.

[kfzmeister]

I thought he upped his game a little, after all he is starting on the same row as Vettel :s mokin:

I'd be nervous if i were Vettel. Lol :D :devil:

[Robinho]

everyone in front of massa is genuinely quicker, i can't see him improving his position without accidents or retirements. I certainly don't expect to see him racing into the points, although 10th might just be possible

[Robinho]

everyone in front of massa is genuinely quicker, i can't see him improving his position without accidents or retirements. I certainly don't expect to see him racing into the points, although 10th might just be possible

Best. Prediction. Ever :D

[BDunnell]

Was Massa in that race?

[Garry Walker]

Massa did well today. Very close to Alonso.

[Garry Walker]

Was Massa in that race?

Yeah, he actually lead the race at one point.

[Robinho]

Yeah, he actually lead the race at one point.

Yeah, and turned it into 13th, good job

[Dave B]

Massa was clearly slower than Alonso - no surprise there - but was then used as a pawn to keep a train of cars away from Ferrari's precious number one.

[Garry Walker]

Yeah, and turned it into 13th, good job

You should find a less challenging sport to follow, maybe you will understand it.
Massa did well today.

[N4D13]

Massa was clearly slower than Alonso - no surprise there - but was then used as a pawn to keep a train of cars away from Ferrari's precious number one.
We'd also have to wonder whether the damage that Senna caused to Massa's car could have had an effect on Massa's performance - and how much it cost him. Anyway, this is definitely an improvement from the previous 2 GPs.

[ioan]

Yeah, and turned it into 13th, good job

:faceplam:
Remind us all where did Raikonnen finish! :rotflmao:

[truefan72]

another underwhelming performance, he was a roadblock for the faster cars for most of the race

[ioan]

You should find a less challenging sport to follow, maybe you will understand it.
Massa did well today.

Finishing ahead of Raikkonen nonetheless!

[Garry Walker]

Finishing ahead of Raikkonen nonetheless!

Both Massa and Kimi were victims of idiotic decisions on strategy.

[ioan]

another underwhelming performance, he was a roadblock for the faster cars for most of the race

He was on a different strategy.
Looks like Garry, despite his strange views about drivers crashing, understands what he watches while others are blinded by, let call it, un-love for certain drivers.

[Dave B]

:faceplam:
Remind us all where did Raikonnen finish! :rotflmao:
Totally different. Kimi's tyres were more slippery than an ice rink covered in extra virgin olive oil, whereas once Massa failed to match Fernando's pace he was used as a mobile chicane to keep a queue of cars behind him. I actually think that Massa had a decent race, by his own mediocre standards.

[ioan]

Both Massa and Kimi were victims of idiotic decisions on strategy.

Yep, true.
The lack of understanding of a race strategy by some people around here is bordering on ridiculous.