Felipe Massa

[Tazio]

Massa had an acceptable race IMO. He doesn't have the knack for conserving his tires that alonso does.

[ioan]

Totally different. Kimi's tyres were more slippery than an ice rink covered in extra virgin olive oil, whereas once Massa failed to match Fernando's pace he was used as a mobile chicane to keep a queue of cars behind him. I actually think that Massa had a decent race, by his own mediocre standards.

Sure the circumstances were different, however his finishing position was in both cases not really in the drivers' hands. And both of them could have finished much higher or even lower with the tire lottery in the last 10 laps.

[Dave B]

Massa wasn't slower because of his strategy, he was on a different strategy because​ he was slower.

[ioan]

Massa had an acceptable race IMO. He doesn't have the knack for coserving his tires that alonso does.

Sure he doesn't, he used only 3 sets of tires compared to Alonso's 4 sets! :confused:

[i_max2k2]

Both Massa and Kimi were victims of idiotic decisions on strategy.

I just couldn't understand why they were not pitting him, Shame on Ferrari to put Massa in that position so that Alonso can get a point, perhaps he should get out of Ferrari for his own good, cause it doesnt seem like they are going to give him a fair chance.
I also just loved Webber's last lap overtake of Vettel.

[Dave B]

Sure the circumstances were different, however his finishing position was in both cases not really in the drivers' hands. And both of them could have finished much higher or even lower with the tire lottery in the last 10 laps.
You keep claiming that it was a tyre lottery and yet many of the teams seemed to manage them ok. It was known that the Pirellis would last 20-23 laps at best before falling off a cliff, and yet some teams chose to gamble on longer stints.

[Garry Walker]

Totally different. Kimi's tyres were more slippery than an ice rink covered in extra virgin olive oil, whereas once Massa failed to match Fernando's pace he was used as a mobile chicane to keep a queue of cars behind him. I actually think that Massa had a decent race, by his own mediocre standards.
Massa was quite on Alonso's pace at the start. After that they were always on different strategy. Considering Massa is not nearly the same driver he was some years ago and he is the de facto nr.2 driver in Ferrari, that is good enough. The first two races for him were horrendous of course.


Yep, true.
The lack of understanding of a race strategy by some people around here is bordering on ridiculous.

Absolutely.

He was on a different strategy.
Looks like Garry, despite his strange views about drivers crashing, understands what he watches while others are blinded by, let call it, un-love for certain drivers.

The only driver I want to crash is bieber, I don't mind others :D

[Tazio]

Sure he doesn't, he used only 3 sets of tires compared to Alonso's 4 sets! :confused:
He still doesn't face it

[ioan]

Massa wasn't slower because of his strategy, he was on a different strategy because​ he was slower.

That we do not know, only Ferrari does know it to a certain degree what the end result would have been if Massa was on a 3 stops strategy. As it goes they split the strategies for their 2 drivers.

[Garry Walker]

Sure he doesn't, he used only 3 sets of tires compared to Alonso's 4 sets! :confused:

LOL! I guess someone should be a bit embarrassed about his statement on Alonso being the tyre saver.

[ioan]

He still doesn't face it

I fail to find the logic in your comments, he use less tires in the race yet he is worse at tire management?!
Interesting.

[Dave B]

That we do not know, only Ferrari does know it to a certain degree what the end result would have been if Massa was on a 3 stops strategy. As it goes they split the strategies for their 2 drivers.
I should have added "all weekend". In fact, "all season".

[ioan]

The only driver I want to crash is bieber, I don't mind others :D

I know, but that's still not good enough.

[F1boat]

Today he was OK, IMO. Nothing special, but the car still lacks pace.

[Garry Walker]

Today he was OK, IMO. Nothing special, but the car still lacks pace.

Ferrari was actually pretty fast today. Maybe not quite RedBull and Mercedes level, but faster than Lotus.

[F1boat]

I think that in Spain they will be much better :)

[Robinho]

You should find a less challenging sport to follow, maybe you will understand it.
Massa did well today.

He was poor, slightly closer to Alonso, but still poor, and never looked like moving forwards in the race, in fact he went backwards, even with one of the cars ahead dropping out. Alonso was well in the hunt for 6th, but made a mistake and was shuffled back a few spots, Massa was always defending, never attacking. It was his best race of the year, but that is hardly difficult at the moment. I saw nothing positive for Massa today, other than manageing not to pit for ages and lucking into a coule of laps at the front

[jens]

I don't consider Massa's race as "poor" unlike some other people. For sure it wasn't great, but it was an improvement over the first two races. After all, he finished just 5.5 seconds behind Alonso. Although as it turned out, 2-stopper was the superior strategy today and Massa was in clean air most of the time, while 3-stoppers were blocked. But nonetheless the positive thing was that Massa was fighting and keeping positions for much of the race, while in Malaysia he just let everyone through and disappeared.

But of course, Massa was impressive in China last year as well. Let's see if this race was just an exception, where Felipe doesn't look awful in race trim.

[ioan]

He was poor, slightly closer to Alonso, but still poor, and never looked like moving forwards in the race, in fact he went backwards, even with one of the cars ahead dropping out. Alonso was well in the hunt for 6th, but made a mistake and was shuffled back a few spots, Massa was always defending, never attacking. It was his best race of the year, but that is hardly difficult at the moment. I saw nothing positive for Massa today, other than manageing not to pit for ages and lucking into a coule of laps at the front

Can you please let us know how did a poor Massa finish ahead of Raikonnen?
It doesn't look like you are willing to address the facts and you just keep pumping your hot air fed by your hate for the man.
Try to be objective for once.

[Garry Walker]

Can you please let us know how did a poor Massa finish ahead of Raikonnen?
It doesn't look like you are willing to address the facts and you just keep pumping your hot air fed by your hate for the man.
Try to be objective for once.

What does Kimi have to do with this?

[ioan]

After all, he finished just 5.5 seconds behind Alonso.

Another fact that Robinho will never address, as it doesn't suit his agenda.
Maybe he's on Ferrari's short list to replace Felipe?! :laugh:

[ioan]

What does Kimi have to do with this?

He started well ahead of Massa and finished behind.
You can't call a driver's performance bad without comparing it to his competition. And it shows that the field was so close that being in the big points or 14th was down to almost nothing in terms of driver performance.
Though finishing only 5 seconds behind Alonso is even a better indicator.

[Garry Walker]

He started well ahead of Massa and finished behind.
You can't call a driver's performance bad without comparing it to his competition. And it shows that the field was so close that being in the big points or 14th was down to almost nothing in terms of driver performance.
Though finishing only 5 seconds behind Alonso is even a better indicator.

The tyres on the Lotus died bigtime, it was not down to bad performance by Kimi.

[ioan]

The tyres on the Lotus died bigtime, it was not down to bad performance by Kimi.

Maybe the tires on the Ferrari did the same. Who knows? certainly not Robinho.

[A FONDO]

Its amazing how low Massa set the bar, so that today's performance is marked as "good" :dozey:

[Robinho]

Can you please let us know how did a poor Massa finish ahead of Raikonnen?
It doesn't look like you are willing to address the facts and you just keep pumping your hot air fed by your hate for the man.
Try to be objective for once.

Pot, kettle, black.

I've never said I hate anyone, that's your words. As for Kimi, I think they made a mistake in not stopping when the tyres went off. He had a poor result and should have done better, same with massa.

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[aryan]

Massa had an okay race this time.

Sure, he finished out of points, but with Fernando struggling, I don't think many other drivers would have finished in the points in that second Ferrari.

I think the team did compromise his strategy a bit to try and keep other cars that were racing Fernando behind him on worn tyres. Can't really blame them for this though.

[jens]

Ioan, Räikkönen was on a different strategy, that is why it is unfair to compare them. Just as Alonso and Massa were on a different strategy and I think we have concluded that the 5.5sec gap between them isn't completely representative either.

[ioan]

Ioan, Räikkönen was on a different strategy, that is why it is unfair to compare them. Just as Alonso and Massa were on a different strategy and I think we have concluded that the 5.5sec gap between them isn't completely representative either.

They ere all in the same race, or shall we say Rosberg did nothing worth mentioning today because he was on a different strategy to Button? Just asking.

[Dave B]

What was Smedley saying to Massa when he was being overtaken left right and centre? Sky were talking over the feed, but it sounded like Rob was reminding him to keep cars behind him and saying "we've talked about this" - hardly encouraging if correct.

[ioan]

There were 2 times, as far as I recall, when Rob talked to Felipe, on one ocassio he said the pace is fine and he should keep doing what he's doing, and the 2nd time when he told him to let Alonso by. I might have missed another one.

[Dave B]

Hmm. Three races in, and every driver has scored at least one championship point except for those driving for the 3 new teams. And Massa.

Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/2012/)

[Robinho]

Another fact that Robinho will never address, as it doesn't suit his agenda.
Maybe he's on Ferrari's short list to replace Felipe?! :laugh:

Alonso had a poor result for the competitiveness he showed, so by association if massa finished behind. again, he was also poor. No agenda, just my opinion that massa is driving poorly this season, and all I see are excuses being trotted out

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[ioan]

Alonso had a poor result for the competitiveness he showed, so by association if massa finished behind. again, he was also poor. No agenda, just my opinion that massa is driving poorly this season, and all I see are excuses being trotted out

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What exactly is your issue with the guy?
Is this another case like Garry's 'love' for Vettel? It sure looks like that.
Or is it about wanting Kubica in that seat? Well Kubica isn't fit to drive a F1 car and Massa will certainly not be driving a Ferrari F1 next season, not even if by some miracle he manages to win races this season.

[Robinho]

What exactly is your issue with the guy?
Is this another case like Garry's 'love' for Vettel? It sure looks like that.
Or is it about wanting Kubica in that seat? Well Kubica isn't fit to drive a F1 car and Massa will certainly not be driving a Ferrari F1 next season, not even if by some miracle he manages to win races this season.

The only issue here I can see is the blind defense. I am simply stating that massa, in my opinion, is driving very poorly so far this year, as he was most of last year. Sure its a dog of a car, but so far Alonso is again clearly showing him the way. For whatever reason massa is nowhere near the driver he was a few years ago and imo does not deserve to retain the seat based on the last couple of years. He should be closer to Alonso, even if he was better today it was hardly a good result. What is so difficult to comprehend about that, I am criticizing what I, and many others, consider to be an underperforming driver

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[ioan]

The only issue here I can see is the blind defense.

IMO it's the blind hatred.
You're the only one after the last GP going on about how poorly he drove, while all others acknowledged that for once he did raise his game.

[steveaki13]

I don't consider Massa's race as "poor" unlike some other people. For sure it wasn't great, but it was an improvement over the first two races. After all, he finished just 5.5 seconds behind Alonso. Although as it turned out, 2-stopper was the superior strategy today and Massa was in clean air most of the time, while 3-stoppers were blocked. But nonetheless the positive thing was that Massa was fighting and keeping positions for much of the race, while in Malaysia he just let everyone through and disappeared.

But of course, Massa was impressive in China last year as well. Let's see if this race was just an exception, where Felipe doesn't look awful in race trim.

Agree.

I thought Felipe did a solid job today, however he still needs to improve and get a points finish as, like Dave pointed out he is the only non back 3 team driver not to score yet.

[Robinho]

IMO it's the blind hatred.
You're the only one after the last GP going on about how poorly he drove, while all others acknowledged that for once he did raise his game.

Well you are wrong, because I catergorically do not hate him. I also acknowledged this was his best race of the year and he was closer to Alonso, yet he was still poor

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[Dave B]

For the record I quite like Massa, he seems a decent chap and I think he's capable of so much more. Yes this was his best performance of the year, but that's damning with faint praise. He's been slower than Alonso all weekend and finished behind him despite his team mate having a "moment" on the marbles. Not a performance to be particularly proud of.

[Dave B]

There were 2 times, as far as I recall, when Rob talked to Felipe, on one ocassio he said the pace is fine and he should keep doing what he's doing, and the 2nd time when he told him to let Alonso by. I might have missed another one.
There certainly was another one. I'm watching the BBC replay and they talked right over it too. I've got the Sky coverage on my PVR and will see if I can decode it later.

[ArrowsFA1]

IMO it's the blind hatred.
You're the only one after the last GP going on about how poorly he drove, while all others acknowledged that for once he did raise his game.
Yes he did raise his game somewhat, but for goodness sake he had to and he didn't raise it by much. As far as we know there is no excuse for his below par performances and in the past he has shown himself capable of matching the likes of Schumacher & Raikkonen on occasions, so where has that Felipe gone?

[veeten]

That's just it... as I said some posts ago, by Bahrain we would see if his status has changed. Something tells me that, after this week's production, if he's not in the top 10 finishing the Bahrain GP, that's exactly what he will be; gone.

[airshifter]

For the record I quite like Massa, he seems a decent chap and I think he's capable of so much more. Yes this was his best performance of the year, but that's damning with faint praise. He's been slower than Alonso all weekend and finished behind him despite his team mate having a "moment" on the marbles. Not a performance to be particularly proud of.

I'm much the same. I think Felipe is a great guy, but I think his days in F1 are numbered. About the only good thing I can say about the race today was he didn't suck as bad as he often does.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Only driver not in a proper car (not a Caterham, Marussia, HRT) yet to score a point.....

[Mark]

The search terms at the bottom of this page are telling...

[Tazio]

Both Ferraris lost pace on low fuel Massa dropped, and Alonso couldn't attack. This is hardly a revelation as we all know they are not as competitive on low fuel as they are on heavy.

[Knock-on]

The search terms at the bottom of this page are telling...

PML :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

So, Massa was just behind Alonso all the race, not bad.

[F1boat]

First points, I am very happy for Felipe, although he looked gloomy again.

[Dave B]

It was actually a decent performance from Massa today, awesome in fact during the opening stages and he kept within a gnat's scrotum of Alonso for much of the race. He probably did his employment chances no harm whatsoever.

[F1boat]

It is great that Ferrari support him during difficult times. :)

[Hawkmoon]

Best race of the season. I still want to see him gone at the end of the year but credit where it's due, he's improved the last couple of races.

[F1boat]

I hope that he'll improve even more in the next races :)

[Tazio]

Massa fought hard, like Felipe of old! :up:

[jens]

Good drive by Massa on what is historically one of his strongest circuits. Basically managed to match Alonso's pace for much of the race.

[George6890]

Good haul, Felipe. Good haul! :D

[pino]

Can't expect much more from him with a such crappy car :s

[Garry Walker]

Can't expect much more from him with a such crappy car :s

You can expect him to give his all, drive cleanly and fast and match his teammate. He did that. No one is expecting him to win races in that car.

[Mia 01]

a very good race form Massa today, he was as fast as Fernando or faster a great deal of the race.

And, ferrari can be a threat in Spain.

[ArrowsFA1]

And, ferrari can be a threat in Spain.
Mmmm...a threat in Q1 maybe :p :

[Knock-on]

Well, at least he looked like a solid #2 today. Ferrari will need this sort of performance each race from now on.

[schmenke]

Yes, yes, respectable drive and all, but the fact remains that he has still scored only 2 points :s

[jens]

Yes, yes, respectable drive and all, but the fact remains that he has still scored only 2 points :s

Indeed. Which in turn means that in order to get a good points haul by the end of the season, you really need to perform on those days, when the car is ideally dialled in for track and conditions in order to chase big points. With the inconsistencies of the season so far, one has to get most out of the opportunities, when they present themselves. Massa didn't manage it in Malaysia, so he has to wait for another day to avoid having an embarrassingly huge loss to Alonso in the point standings.

[Robinho]

Only just watched the race, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by Massa, brilliant start set him up and he kept on Alonso's pace throughout the race and brought home some points, much more like the old Felipe. I do think he seems to go well in Bahrain, so it will be interesting if he keeps it up in Spain, but a welcome return to some form at least

[aryan]

I do think he seems to go well in Bahrain, so it will be interesting if he keeps it up in Spain, but a welcome return to some form at least

I think he will be the one who will most miss Turkey. Specially this year, he really needed that circuit to be in the calendar!

[Robinho]

Well, at least he looked like a solid #2 today. Ferrari will need this sort of performance each race from now on.

yeah up until Bahrain he has looked more like a runny #2 than a solid #2 ;)

[Knock-on]

yeah up until Bahrain he has looked more like a runny #2 than a solid #2 ;)
Stop talking crap :p :

:D

[SGWilko]

Only just watched the race, and I have to say I was pleasantly surprised by Massa, brilliant start set him up and he kept on Alonso's pace throughout the race and brought home some points, much more like the old Felipe. I do think he seems to go well in Bahrain, so it will be interesting if he keeps it up in Spain, but a welcome return to some form at least

And he was really quite feisty when he had to defend/overtake. Overall a good race for Felipe. :up:

[Malbec]

And he was really quite feisty when he had to defend/overtake. Overall a good race for Felipe. :up:

Given that Massa is almost the archetype of a confidence driver I hope this strong performance means that mentally he has turned a corner and delivers stronger performances in the future. I thoroughly enjoyed watching him banging wheels this weekend, he really seemed to be enjoying himself out there which is more than you can say for his previous outings.

I'm afraid we're not going to see Massa in F1 next year, his career is all but finished. Sad in a way since in the right environment he could still be a very capable driver.
I believe he will return and will be powerful.
Fighting Massa

[Dave B]

A return to business as usual in Spain: poor qualifying then finished the race a lap down on his team mate, partly due to his self-inflicted drive-through, but was once again way off the pace. He had to be chivvied along by Smedley to pass Vergne for 10th while Alonso was off in the lead.

[Mark]

The only question is who will be the Ferrari No. 2 in 2013

[truefan72]

massa won't make it to the end of the season,
he might not make it to silverstone

Ferrari might as well run some young guy in there or anyone of a hand ful of drivers out there

let them do a Friday practice
then run them in the next GP

[pino]

The only question is who will be the Ferrari No. 2 in 2013

Trulli ;)

[George6890]

Trulli ;)

I'm interviewing Jarno on Wednesday night. I'll ask him then! ;)

[Mark]

Haha. Won't be Trulli. Remember the last time Ferrari rreplaced a driver with an old one.

It'll be a young guy.

[steveaki13]

He really is poor, his career is stalling fast.

Its amazing that this was a guy who came one corner away from a world title.

[Hawkmoon]

Ferrari have one driver jointly leading the drivers championship yet are a distant 4th in the constructors championship 46 points behind the leader. Does anything more need to be said?

[gloomyDAY]

Alexander Rossi. Italian name and our only American hope!

The California Kid! :p

[Tazio]

. Does anything more need to be said?Why yes:

:s ailor: Extract fork, meat overdone

[aryan]

You know what... after he is dropped from Ferrari (which will happen either sometime during the season or for 2013), I can't actually see Massa driving in F1. His whole career has been funded and developed by Ferrari. Once that's gone, who wants to employ this guy with all these amazing young talents around?

[F1boat]

I'm very sad, but it's time for Felipe to consider racing in lower categories. I waited and waited for him to come back, but most likely it won't happen. Sad, really :(

[airshifter]

I agree F1boat. I don't think he's ever really come back to life since that spring hit him. It seems like his head is no longer in the game a lot of the time.

[N. Jones]

Patrick Head once stated that drivers who are involved in a serious accident are never the same afterward. Yeah, yeah, there are exceptions but Felipe fits the mold perfectly.

It's time for him to move on...

[SGWilko]

Patrick Head once stated that drivers who are involved in a serious accident are never the same afterward. Yeah, yeah, there are exceptions but Felipe fits the mold perfectly.

It's time for him to move on...

Didn't Mansell break his back/neck at least 17 times in his career, whilst burning his arse on spilled fuel hitting a barrier at Sukuza backwards full chat.

I wont even mention Niki Lauder........ ;)

[Tazio]

Didn't Mansell break his back/neck at least 17 times in his career, whilst burning his arse on spilled fuel hitting a barrier at Sukuza backwards full chat.

I wont even mention Niki Lauder........ ;) Totally agree, Massa is simply getting his as$ handed to him by Alonso :dozey:

[Knock-on]

I see Massa and Schumacher dissapearing into the distance to "Bring me Sunshine" like Morecambe and Wise :laugh:

[SGWilko]

I see Massa and Schumacher dissapearing into the distance to "Bring me Sunshine" like Morecambe and Wise :laugh:

Perhaps that's what's wrong with Michael right now;

He's playing all the right notes.........

[ShiftingGears]

Patrick Head once stated that drivers who are involved in a serious accident are never the same afterward. Yeah, yeah, there are exceptions but Felipe fits the mold perfectly.

It's time for him to move on...

To be honest we'll never really know whether the effects from the accident on Massa are psychological, or a result of brain damage.

[SGWilko]

To be honest we'll never really know whether the effects from the accident on Massa are psychological, or a result of brain damage.

:confused:

[ShiftingGears]

:confused:

Stirling Moss.

[Knock-on]

I don't see much difference between Massa before the accident and after. I certainly don't subscribe to this idea that there is some sort of psychological issue affecting him. He's always been nursemaided during his career and was the butt plug for Schumy when the German was not at his best. Now we have Alonso on board and he's been destroyed by a much better driver.

Still, better to look at conspirasy theories and excuses that logic.

[Ranger]

I don't see much difference between Massa before the accident and after. I certainly don't subscribe to this idea that there is some sort of psychological issue affecting him. He's always been nursemaided during his career and was the butt plug for Schumy when the German was not at his best. Now we have Alonso on board and he's been destroyed by a much better driver.

Still, better to look at conspirasy theories and excuses that logic.

Just in case you (and anyone else) had forgotten:

He won more races than anyone in 2008 and came up one corner short of winning the world championship.

His current predicament is sad because in most of those wins, he looked absolutely unbeatable.

[jens]

Absolutely. Current Massa and the 2008 Massa are incomparable. I even have a suspicion the current driver is Massa's secret twin-brother. :D I remember Felipe winning qualifying sessions by the margin of half a second on several occasions! He managed to put in some stunning laps, which he is completely incapable of now.

[truefan72]

Just in case you (and anyone else) had forgotten:

He won more races than anyone in 2008 and came up one corner short of winning the world championship.

His current predicament is sad because in most of those wins, he looked absolutely unbeatable.

he did not win spa in my book and he had the best car that year as well
all of his victories were from disappearing from pole
and in the latter half of the year kimi sacrificed race wins for him
Also he was nowhere to be found in France before kimi's exhaust failed, punted Hamilton off in Japan, and looked like a clown in the wet (silverstone)

That championship would have been Hamilton's much earlier if not of the stewards trying their best to gift it to massa.

massa is a good driver in a great car
an average driver in good car
and a terrible driver in an average car

has no instinctive race craft, relies heavily on smedley to walk him through every lap and is incapable of getting more out of the car than offered.
Like many have said, if ferrari isn't offering him a drive, I'm pretty sure no other team will

[jens]

If you are going on about Massa's luck, you shouldn't forget his unluck in 2008 either. He lost two races wins (Hungary, Singapore) with car/team failures. So it kinda balances it out, when we are comparing it to Hamilton from the same season, who IIRC never retired with a car problem. By the way, Kimi didn't sacrifice wins, just a second place in China.

In any case, you may argue about Massa's past how you like, but nonetheless he was much better in 2008 than he has been recently. In addition, to me Felipe looked quite 'okay' in 2002-2005 in midfield Saubers too if we are talking about his ability in average cars. Sure he wasn't stellar, but was showing flashes of speed every now and then, being far from the joke he has become now.

[Tazio]

he did not win spa in my book and he had the best car that year as well
all of his victories were from disappearing from pole
and in the latter half of the year kimi sacrificed race wins for him
Also he was nowhere to be found in France before kimi's exhaust failed, punted Hamilton off in Japan, and looked like a clown in the wet (silverstone)

That championship would have been Hamilton's much earlier if not of the stewards trying their best to gift it to massa.

massa is a good driver in a great car
an average driver in good car
and a terrible driver in an average car

has no instinctive race craft, relies heavily on smedley to walk him through every lap and is incapable of getting more out of the car than offered.
Like many have said, if ferrari isn't offering him a drive, I'm pretty sure no other team will
+1 Totally agree, Massa is just like getting;

http://www.aperfectworld.org/cartoons/2002/bitchslap.gif

By Fred, and anyone else that has a decent car under them. Felipe baby Alonso is MUCH faster than you.




“A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism.”
― Carl Sagan

[N. Jones]

Didn't Mansell break his back/neck at least 17 times in his career, whilst burning his arse on spilled fuel hitting a barrier at Sukuza backwards full chat.

I wont even mention Niki Lauder........ ;)

Yep, which is why I said there are exceptions. I believe the accident is a major reason why he is struggling.

[Tazio]

Come on Ben if that is really bothering him than he is a puss, which I do not think he is. I think that all things considered; Massa is just a guy that has to deal with a major change in the "competition" that doesn't get it, and somehow like at Renault Fred can pitch that beast down the road.

[N. Jones]

Serious question, Are you talking to me, Good Doctor? :)

[truefan72]

Ferrari pile more pressure on Massa - Yahoo! Eurosport (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/14052012/58/ferrari-pile-pressure-massa.html)

now Ferrari themselves are heaping pressure on Massa
this does not bode well for him

[airshifter]

Just in case you (and anyone else) had forgotten:

He won more races than anyone in 2008 and came up one corner short of winning the world championship.

His current predicament is sad because in most of those wins, he looked absolutely unbeatable.

Not to mention the fact that he beat Kimi, who managed to get a WDC in his first year in the Ferrari. Some will call him a loser for that one point, but it was a much stronger season than he has had since.

[aryan]

Felipe looked quite 'okay' in 2002-2005 in midfield Saubers too if we are talking about his ability in average cars. Sure he wasn't stellar, but was showing flashes of speed every now and then, being far from the joke he has become now.

Sure, he was better than 2011-2012 Filipe, but his form in that Sauber was nothing to brag about. I seem to remember him running into his teammates on quite a number of occassions.

In 3 years, there are opportunities to stand out in a midfield car, and Filipe never stood out. If it wasn't for the Ferrari engine, I'm sure Peter Sauber wouldn't have even run him. Let's face it, there were much better drivers deserving of that Ferrari drive in 2006, if it was for on pure merit. But Todt had a fascination with him that I never understood.

[Tazio]

Serious question, Are you talking to me, Good Doctor? :)

No Sir! I wish I could tell you who I was, but I was guilty of PUI yesterday :mark: :)

[Knock-on]

he did not win spa in my book and he had the best car that year as well
all of his victories were from disappearing from pole
and in the latter half of the year kimi sacrificed race wins for him
Also he was nowhere to be found in France before kimi's exhaust failed, punted Hamilton off in Japan, and looked like a clown in the wet (silverstone)

That championship would have been Hamilton's much earlier if not of the stewards trying their best to gift it to massa.

massa is a good driver in a great car
an average driver in good car
and a terrible driver in an average car

has no instinctive race craft, relies heavily on smedley to walk him through every lap and is incapable of getting more out of the car than offered.
Like many have said, if ferrari isn't offering him a drive, I'm pretty sure no other team will

This ^^^ all day long.

When people defend Massa by pointing out that he didn't win in 2008 despite having the best car, a complying team mate and some incredible decesions in his favour from 'der management' and against his main rival..... well, it says it all really.

Now he has a good to average car and is just getting destroyed by Alonso.

Actually there might be a psychological issue with him but it's nothing to do with his accident. it's that he hasn't the right mental attitude to handle his team mate.

[darwin553]

he did not win spa in my book and he had the best car that year as well
all of his victories were from disappearing from pole
and in the latter half of the year kimi sacrificed race wins for him
Also he was nowhere to be found in France before kimi's exhaust failed, punted Hamilton off in Japan, and looked like a clown in the wet (silverstone)

That championship would have been Hamilton's much earlier if not of the stewards trying their best to gift it to massa.

massa is a good driver in a great car
an average driver in good car
and a terrible driver in an average car

has no instinctive race craft, relies heavily on smedley to walk him through every lap and is incapable of getting more out of the car than offered.
Like many have said, if ferrari isn't offering him a drive, I'm pretty sure no other team will

I believe in this also.

Massa just seems like the kind of driver that needs the top performing car of the field to be able to do well and win races and can't achieve a better than expected result in mediocre equipment.

I also think that he isn't one to rise to the occasion when the media start to criticise him but rather the pressure of the media's attention on him has a compounding effect of keeping the status quo or making his results and performance worse.

[Dave B]

I just think back to the opening stages of Spain when Rob Smedley had to chivvy him along to pass a Toro Rosso for 10th, while up front his team mate was leading the race. That, in microcosm, is the story of Massa's season.

When's Sergio's seat fitting?

[Dave B]

The only question is who will be the Ferrari No. 2 in 2013
Alonso, when Perez joins the team and starts kicking his ass :p

[N4D13]

I'm starting to believe that Massa will be sacked before the end of the season. I hadn't noticed before, but it turns out that Alonso's worst place (ninth) is the same as Massa's best. Alonso has scored in every single race - Massa, in only one of them. I wouldn't be surprised to see someone like Sutil or even Alguersuari getting a Ferrari race seat for the remainder of 2012 if Felipe doesn't get to grips with the tyres soon enough.

[zako85]

If Massa is to be sacked, he has to be sacked like .. TODAY. Otherwise it doesn't make sense. What's the point of sacking him at say ten or less races before the end of season? Anyone thinks a fresh driver with no experience with the car, 2012 tires, and possibly no experience in F1, will do better than Massa is doing currently?

[zako85]

I'm starting to believe that Massa will be sacked before the end of the season. I hadn't noticed before, but it turns out that Alonso's worst place (ninth) is the same as Massa's best.

You could say the same thing about Webber last year. He couldn't do better than Vettel's worst finish (2nd) until German GP, when Vettel's then current worst finish became 4th place.

[iva.rpm]

There are some rumors I've heard here in Brazil about Felipe Massa being replaced by the Canadian GP. They say that Adrian Sutil may drive for Ferrari in the remaining races of the 2012 season.

Movimentação nos boxes de Barcelona aumenta rumores sobre saída de Massa da Ferrari - Fórmula 1 - UOL Esporte (http://esporte.uol.com.br/f1/ultimas-noticias/2012/05/14/sutil-fica-de-olho-em-vaga-de-massa-e-trabalha-nos-bastidores-para-voltar-a-f-1-diz-site.htm) (in Portuguese)

[N4D13]

You could say the same thing about Webber last year. He couldn't do better than Vettel's worst finish (2nd) until German GP, when Vettel's then current worst finish became 4th place.
Fair point, but still, there's a massive difference between Webber's 2011 and Massa's 2012. Failing to score and being lapped by your teammate, who happens to take second in the race, is quite indicative of how poorly Massa is driving. He was handed a drive-through penalty, but he was already nowhere before then. Alonso qualified in 3rd and Massa, in 17th - that alone speaks volumes.

[Tazio]

There are some rumors I've heard here in Brazil about Felipe Massa being replaced by the Canadian GP. They say that Adrian Sutil may drive for Ferrari in the remaining races of the 2012 season.

Movimentação nos boxes de Barcelona aumenta rumores sobre saída de Massa da Ferrari - Fórmula 1 - UOL Esporte (http://esporte.uol.com.br/f1/ultimas-noticias/2012/05/14/sutil-fica-de-olho-em-vaga-de-massa-e-trabalha-nos-bastidores-para-voltar-a-f-1-diz-site.htm) (in Portuguese) Great news for my FGP team if it happens. I have "Slash" as my backup driver. :laugh:

[Dave B]

Even allowing 15-18 seconds for Massa's drive through, and even allowing a few seconds for Alonso's tyres dropping off after his valiant pursuit of Maldonado, the Brazillian still finished more than a lap down. Webber's not a match for Vettel, that's fair enough, but in Seb's title years he was usually not too far behind, bringing back a solid haul of points week in week out. If Felipe could be relied upon to be a solid #2 then I don't think Ferrari would be too bothered, but at the moment it's Fernando doing all the donkey work while Massa... well, he's just being a donkey.

[iva.rpm]

I just hope Sutil doesn't try to kill somebody this time. :D

[Tazio]

I just hope Sutil doesn't try to kill somebody this time. :D He will be ok. Alonso is the one who may need an extra body gaurd to keep an eye on Slash ;)

[SGWilko]

I just hope Sutil doesn't try to kill somebody this time. :D

Don't worry, He'l be close to a win until Kimi forgets to brake! :laugh:

[Tazio]

Don't worry, He'l be close to a win until Kimi forgets to brake! :laugh:

Or The Boss may be close to a win when Slash forgets to brake :eek:

[SGWilko]

Or The Boss may be close to a win when Slash forgets to brake :eek:

A revenge swipe? Like it! :laugh:

[jens]

Sure, he was better than 2011-2012 Filipe, but his form in that Sauber was nothing to brag about. I seem to remember him running into his teammates on quite a number of occassions.

In 3 years, there are opportunities to stand out in a midfield car, and Filipe never stood out. If it wasn't for the Ferrari engine, I'm sure Peter Sauber wouldn't have even run him. Let's face it, there were much better drivers deserving of that Ferrari drive in 2006, if it was for on pure merit. But Todt had a fascination with him that I never understood.

I remember making a calculation that in terms of speed Massa was as close to Heidfeld as Räikkönen had been the year before on his debut season. So he was quite promising already then. Sure he was making mistakes, but several rookies have had very error-prone first seasons. His 2004 season against Fisichella wasn't particularly impressive, but he seemed to gain some speed at the end of the season, qualifying 4th for the last few races.

Felipe didn't exactly stand out, but looked set to become at least a decent midfielder, a'la Panis. And a 'decent midfielder' is a kind of driver, who can be considered for a #2 driver role in a top team as well. The Todt connection certainly helped, but I never thought he was a ridiculous choice by any means, when Ferrari made the decision in 2005.

To be honest, current Pérez looks quite similar to what Massa was back then. Sure he got a second place, about which you could say that he has stood out, but the Massa-era Sauber was never ever fast enough in any race to bag a podium. And if Pérez is hired by Ferrari, will it be considered as a fine choice or as a ridiculous choice motivated by money? Based on that we can evaluate Massa's past hiring by Ferrari as well.

[Tazio]

A revenge swipe? Like it! :laugh:
I can see it now, Boss gets out of his ride and ejaculates:
"Hey Slash what are you blind? Couldn't you see me? Slash retorts:
No I couldn't see you any better than you could see that b@stard Lux when he side-punched me in Shanghai.....bro!! :s ailor: :beer:

[N. Jones]

No Sir! I wish I could tell you who I was, but I was guilty of PUI yesterday :mark: :)

PUI? :/

Oh well, carry on, everyone!

[keysersoze]

With all the media pressure on Ferrari, especially with Alonso outperforming the car, I would have expected Felipe to be much closer after his abysmal start. Sadly, he hasn't responded enough, IMO, to keep his job. He's certainly out by the end of the year, and I'm now with the camp that believes he will not last this season.

[Tazio]

PUI? :/

Oh well, carry on, everyone!

Posting under the influence :beer:
Canadian Blended ;)

[Hawkmoon]

Massa is costing Ferrari dearly in the WCC. With Alonso co-leading the championship it would be reasonable to expect that the team would be fairly close to top of the WCC table as well. Instead Ferrari trail Red Bull by 46 points after just 5 races. Without a dramatic turnaround Ferrari are looking at 5th or 6th in the WCC regardless of where Alonso finishes in the WDC. That's costing Ferrari real money. Not only are they paying Massa millions but his lack of results is costing them millions more.

From a pure business decision they should look at how much it will cost to terminate Massa's contract (or even demote him and keep him as 'test' driver) plus how much it will cost to buy out the contract of someone like Perez and balance that against the potential money lost by finishing 5th or 6th in the WCC as opposed to 3rd, which is where they should finish. I'm willing to bet it will be cheaper to pay Massa not to drive than it is to have him driving the car.

[kfzmeister]

Who better to help Ferrari keep Hamilton at bay than Sutil??? I mean who's got it out for Hamilton more than Sutil?? After Hamilton left him hanging dry during his slasher court date!!!
Alonso qualifies towards the front; Sutil about midfield. Hamilton/ McLaren will undoubtedly do something that will cost Hamilton grid spaces and he'll somehow end up near Sutil, who will pick up where Massa left off last year. :)
It's looking more and more like the stars are lining up for Ferrari and Alonso to pull off the Championship of the decade!!

[janneppi]

From a pure business decision they should look at how much it will cost to terminate Massa's contract (or even demote him and keep him as 'test' driver) plus how much it will cost to buy out the contract of someone like Perez and balance that against the potential money lost by finishing 5th or 6th in the WCC as opposed to 3rd, which is where they should finish. I'm willing to bet it will be cheaper to pay Massa not to drive than it is to have him driving the car.

It can't be easy to find a driver who fills the requirements;
1. Has similar driving style than Alonso
2. Fast enough to score top5 places
3. Slow enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
4. Has experience in F1
5. Is willing to drive as n.2 driver
6. Is capable of driving without much support from the team.
7. Is cheap enough

[pino]

It can't be easy to find a driver who fills the requirements;
1. Has similar driving style than Alonso
2. Fast enough to score top5 places
3. Slow enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
4. Has experience in F1
5. Is willing to drive as n.2 driver
6. Is capable of driving without much support from the team.
7. Is cheap enough

You have just described Jarno Trulli :D

[Knock-on]

Rubens?

[truefan72]

It can't be easy to find a driver who fills the requirements;
1. Has similar driving style than Alonso
2. Fast enough to score top5 places
3. Slow enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
4. Has experience in F1
5. Is willing to drive as n.2 driver
6. Is capable of driving without much support from the team.
7. Is cheap enough

heidfeld

[Bagwan]

It can't be easy to find a driver who fills the requirements;
1. Has similar driving style than Alonso
2. Fast enough to score top5 places
3. Slow enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
4. Has experience in F1
5. Is willing to drive as n.2 driver
6. Is capable of driving without much support from the team.
7. Is cheap enough

3. Wise enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
7. Will drive for free
8. Can develop the car for Fernando
9. Recently drove for Ferrari
10. Strong sentimental favourite name

Jacques Villeneuve .

[SGWilko]

3. Wise enough not to challenge Alonso in any way
7. Will drive for free
8. Can develop the car for Fernando
9. Recently drove for Ferrari
10. Strong sentimental favourite name

Jacques Villeneuve .

Sometimes, it's like a distant family meet up - all the same conversations as the last meet up......

[Knock-on]

Jacques Villeneuve .

I knew it, I knew it, I knew it.

Just couldn't stop yourself, could you?

:laugh: :D

[Knock-on]

I think that if Massa doesn't buck his ideas up in the next 2 GP's then he's history. I will be very sad to see this happen because IMHO he's doing a great job. Just what I think Ferrari deserve :laugh:

More Donkey Derby than Prancing Horse :D

[iva.rpm]

If I were Stefano Domenicali, I would try to hire Rubens Barrichello. I think he's a great driver, and he also has a strong connection with Ferrari.

[Tazio]

I think that if Massa doesn't buck his ideas up in the next 2 GP's then he's history. I will be very sad to see this happen because IMHO he's doing a great job. Just what I think Ferrari deserve :laugh:

More Donkey Derby than Prancing Horse :D Not like McLaren whose pit work has more closely resembles the Keystone Cops! : :laugh:

[kfzmeister]

Not like McLaren whose pit work has more closely resembles the Keystone Cops! : :laugh:

As i read this, i see an advertisement for McLaren's new book: The Art of racing! on the top of the page. Lmao. There could not have been a worse time to bring that book to the market than right now!!!

What's next? Williams publishes: "How to be cool in the pits!"
Mercedes: "How to get the best out of the Pirellis!"
Add your own ;)

[Mark]

Rubens?

Yes! He would be perfect. Knows Ferrari, and is still quick.

[Dave B]

Yes! He would be perfect. Knows Ferrari, and is still quick.
But he's not a long-term solution. He'd stick around until the end of 2013 at the most and then Ferrari would be left looking for another driver.

Stick either of the Sauber drivers in the car NOW and if they do a Fisichella or Badoer impression then it won't be any worse than Massa but at least they've got the rest of the season to learn the car in anticipation of next year. They'll be so grateful for the drive they won't mind being Alonso's lapdog, and they've plenty of life in them so that when Alonso hangs up his helmet there'll still be some continuity.

Sutil's a sensible choice for the same reason, but old-timers like Rubens, Jarno or (heaven help us) Jacques just wouldn't be worth the aggravation.

[Mark]

I would assume anyone going into the car now would leave at the end of 2012 anyway, as Ferrari are likely going to want a driver who is currently driving for another team. So Rubens would be a perfect stop gap for the rest of 2012.

[F1boat]

Please no rubens the whiner barrichello!!!

[Knock-on]

Not like McLaren whose pit work has more closely resembles the Keystone Cops! : :laugh:

I can't argue with that. What is causing the problems is beyond me. AFAIK there is no difference between the wheel nuts, hubs and wheels from last year and there wsn't any problem with them.

The gun engages the wheel by locating pins in the wheel nut and the nut is held in place in the socket by 3 ball bearings locating to hold it in place during removal. The nut then locates over a domed end to the hub assembly and a collar slides into the wheel to ensure there is no opportunity for it to be mis-aligned. It is a very smple and failsafe arrangement and is designed to be so.

Short of not torquing the nut up enough, the only way it cannot locate properly is if the wheel isn't located in the first place on locating studs in the hub which slot into the wheel. This I think may be a possibility but unlikely because it's easy for the wheel man to fit the wheel with a slight wiggle at the end which locates it on the pins. The McLaren boys practice this continuously and it's inconeivable that it's this.

I am honestly at a loss to explain the continuing issues McLaren seem to be having.

[Tazio]

I am honestly at a loss to explain the continuing issues McLaren seem to be having.

The explanation is simple; they have hellhounds on their trail :angryfire :p :

[Bagwan]

I can't argue with that. What is causing the problems is beyond me. AFAIK there is no difference between the wheel nuts, hubs and wheels from last year and there wsn't any problem with them.

The gun engages the wheel by locating pins in the wheel nut and the nut is held in place in the socket by 3 ball bearings locating to hold it in place during removal. The nut then locates over a domed end to the hub assembly and a collar slides into the wheel to ensure there is no opportunity for it to be mis-aligned. It is a very smple and failsafe arrangement and is designed to be so.

Short of not torquing the nut up enough, the only way it cannot locate properly is if the wheel isn't located in the first place on locating studs in the hub which slot into the wheel. This I think may be a possibility but unlikely because it's easy for the wheel man to fit the wheel with a slight wiggle at the end which locates it on the pins. The McLaren boys practice this continuously and it's inconeivable that it's this.

I am honestly at a loss to explain the continuing issues McLaren seem to be having.

Gosh , if even you are at a loss to explain it , what chance does McLaren have ?

[Mark]

Sarky git :D

[tfp]

I'm reading at the bottom of this page "sitors found this page by searching for:felipe massa fired, felipe massa sacked,"

Lol! What is going on here? Er, has anyone been web trawling and found any Massa excuses? Not that I dislike the bloke, but I would like to know what is going on and why he is at one end of the grid and why his team mate is at the other!

[Tazio]

I would like to know what is going on and why he is at one end of the grid and why his team mate is at the other!

:s ailor: Is this a trick question? :confused:
If not I suggest you watch quali' and the races, that should give you a hint :dork:

[Malbec]

Yes! He would be perfect. Knows Ferrari

I thought that was the problem, that he knows Ferrari too well. I don't think there's much mutual admiration going on there. I don't think Rubens will take up a Ferrari drive when he has his feet under the table over in indycar.

I do think Ferrari will stick with Massa at least till the end of 2012, its going to be too difficult to find someone else who will do a better job of getting to grips with the Ferrari (which Massa has failed to do despite a decade of F1 experience and months in the car) and who they'll be happy to keep on for a few more years or who will be happy to be dumped at the end of the season for a long term solution.

[Tazio]

I thought that was the problem, that he knows Ferrari too well. I don't think there's much mutual admiration going on there. I don't think Rubens will take up a Ferrari drive
Rubens Barrichello open to returning to F1 if Ferrari calls (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/formula1/story/2012-04-04/Rubens-Barrichello-would-return-to-F1-with-Ferrari/54006852/1)

"I want the fans to understand that I don't have any hard feelings," Barrichello said. "If (Ferrari) called me today to go drive for them I would go. It was the best team I've ever driven for in terms of support, of creativity.
Rubens Barrichello Would Return to Formula 1 If He Could: A Fan (http://sports.yahoo.com/irl/news?slug=ycn-11202714)

Rubens Barrichello has indicated that he would pretty much jump at the chance to rejoin the Formula 1 series if Ferrari would just call him. Though he currently races for IndyCar team KV Racing, it appears that he would abandon the series given an opportunity to return to Ferrari in Formula 1
I think he might consider it :rolleyes:

[F1boat]

I really, really hope that he won't return :( He badmouthed Ferrari pretty badly and ALWAYS whines.

[truefan72]

I really, really hope that he won't return :( He badmouthed Ferrari pretty badly and ALWAYS whines.

so you would rather have a poor driver costing ferrari million in constructor points and toiling at the back of the grid
rather than a guy who knows the organization just as well and would probably bring the car home in a top 10 position consistently, because he said a few bad words about the team that wouldn;t allow him to win or compete when MSC was there. Pretty much all the folks he bad mouthed are gone.

[F1boat]

so you would rather have a poor driver costing ferrari million in constructor points and toiling at the back of the grid
rather than a guy who knows the organization just as well and would probably bring the car home in a top 10 position consistently, because he said a few bad words about the team that wouldn;t allow him to win or compete when MSC was there. Pretty much all the folks he bad mouthed are gone.
He was paid tons of money, if he was unhappy, he should have never signed the contracts - his role there was described, as he said after Austria, I think ("it's in the contract"). And yes, I prefer Massa to him. But the choice is not only between them. If Ferrari want to replace Felipe, it'd be much better if they choose Perez, Sutil or Alguersuari than Barrichello.

[iva.rpm]

If the Italian team replaces Massa during the 2012 season, I think they'll hire Sutil or Alguersuari.

[heliocastroneves#3]

I dunno but isn't this what Ferrari wanted? They always want to have a first and a second driver, and I don't understand which driver in the world wants to be #2.... Massa simply lost the motivation since Hockenheim 2010, which is truly understandable. I would love to see Ferrari running only one car, then those stupid team orders are finally history... Put Massa in a Williams and he will be in victory lane very soon... Massa just lost the motivation and with having that said, it's not fine to have Alonso as your team mate. Ask Fisichella about that, he became a #2 driver at Renault, while Fernando is not a single bit better than him.... They should get two equal drivers and stop that first and second driver thing... It's bad for the sport.

[Tazio]

F1: I’m Feeling Strong And Motivated, Says Massa

Felipe Massa wants to improve drastically on his 2011 season at Ferrari...

An optimistic Felipe Massa insists that he will bounce back this year after struggling through a poor 2011 season.

Last season, Massa never bettered fifth place, while Ferrari teammate Fernando Alonso took a win and nine other podium finishes.

“After the last Grand Prix of 2011 in Brazil, I told myself that we had to be more competitive at every level and that’s exactly what we are doing,” said Massa in Italy on Thursday. :rolleyes:
Massa's problems stem from his inability with the new regs IMO
I believe his poor quali performance is downl to not being able to use throttle, DRS, KERS, and brakes at the same time. That is MHO. He still makes some good starts but the car is a hand full and it is obvious that he can not handle it as well as Alonso.

[Malbec]

so you would rather have a poor driver costing ferrari million in constructor points and toiling at the back of the grid
rather than a guy who knows the organization just as well and would probably bring the car home in a top 10 position consistently, because he said a few bad words about the team that wouldn;t allow him to win or compete when MSC was there. Pretty much all the folks he bad mouthed are gone.

What genuine alternative do Ferrari have other than keeping Massa for 2012?

Lets go through the situation. Massa clearly isn't performing and I think we're all agreed it would be madness to keep him for 2013 and beyond. The problem is what to do for 2012.

Massa is an experienced driver who has coped well with all kinds of regulation changes previously without problems. Its only been in the last two seasons that his performance has dropped off although apparently in the simulator he doesn't have problems staying with Alonso's pace. He has had a full winter test in the Ferrari and obviously gets full race weekends too. He knows the team. He knows the car better than anyone other than Alonso.

Now look at Ferrari. What they cannot do is replace Massa with another driver only to find that the replacement struggles as well. They need someone who can put the car at or close to where Alonso can put it so the team can score more points. They have experience from 2008 when Massa had his head injury, they know that it is not easy for even an experienced and current race driver like Fisi to adapt to a new car mid-season and get anything like the most out of it, and they also know that the 2012 Ferrari is a difficult beast to tame too.

So what kind of driver do you want? You need someone who knows and has adapted well to the 2012 spec Pirellis. Someone who has tonnes of experience but hasn't shown he can get the most out of the 2012 Pirellis or not used them at all is useless to them (like Rubens), after all Massa already has plenty of experience and that isn't the problem, nor is it helping. There are no more in-season test sessions where Ferrari can evaluate a driver and give him time on the new Pirellis to see if they are any good (the young driver test doesn't count because Ferrari is so conservative and won't hire rookies). This limits the field to a current race driver, otherwise its too much of a gamble.

Who would want to go to Ferrari? Its going to be a tough task replacing Massa. The assumption in this thread appears to be that anyone experienced could replace Massa and do a better job but I think thats simply not true for reasons I've already posted. Because of the lack of testing the first time any Massa replacement gets to drive the Ferrari will be in FP1 of a race weekend. Thats going to be a baptism of fire and it'll be very difficult for anyone to learn the car and how it uses its tyres in that short period. Any replacement will probably not reach Massa's performance level for a good few race weekends, let alone go on to challenge Alonso.

For a young driver it would be career suicide to take the second seat and have Alonso beat you hollow all season, humiliating you, so Ferrari would have to offer some kind of a deal that goes beyond 2012, guaranteeing a seat whether at Ferrari or a satellite like Sauber for 2013 and beyond. Is Ferrari prepared to do this? If an experience driver like Massa can't sort out his problems how will an inexperienced youngster fare? The drive might make sense for a driver already looking to retire, realising a dream and racing for Ferrari is not a bad way to end a career even if its a difficult seat with little glory to follow. The problem is that there are no such drivers around. Webber wants to drive a few more years and Schumi is happy where he is. Pedro de la Rosa?

Its less of a gamble for all concerned to keep Massa, offer him support and hope he improves over the rest of the season than replace him.

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[Knock-on]

It's not really a gamble to keep Massa. A gamble suggests the outcome is not likely ;)

Open Letter:


We here at the factory have complete confidence in Massa and are totally behind him and his sterling efforts this season. The diabolical character assasignation of such a valued driver on Motorsport forums is saddening to see and should not be taken as indictive of how he's viewed within the team here. Professionally we are all behind the likeable Brazillian and personally hope he spends many more years at Ferrari doing the job we so appreciate him doing.

Yours sincerely

M. Whitmarsh esq.

[F1boat]

Ask Fisichella about that, he became a #2 driver at Renault, while Fernando is not a single bit better than him....

LOL

[airshifter]

It's not really a gamble to keep Massa. A gamble suggests the outcome is not likely ;)

Open Letter:

I'm glad you posted that letter for us. Now I better understand the PM I got from user "Whit" asking about how fast I could drive a car.... :laugh:


As much as I hate to say it, Massa needs to go this season if Ferrari have any decent options. The money they are losing in loss of constructors points is going to cost the program dearly. As for who those options to replace him are, it's hard to say. I'm sure there are drivers interested, but it's a matter of how much Ferrari would have to throw at them in terms of money.

[N4D13]

Malbec, even though you've raised a great point, you might still be missing the fact that Massa isn't getting anything for Ferrari - he's got just two points in five races. Even though bringing a replacement in would be a huge risk, unless Felipe manages to raise his game substantially, it would be a disaster for the red cars to keep him there. Bringing Sutil or Alguersuari in could backfire, but even if it did, how much would Ferrari lose? It's not like Massa is earning a lot of points, so it wouldn't really make much of a difference even if Felipe's replacement did actually worse.

[Tazio]

An interesting Q and A with Felipe:

F1: Massa Q&A: 'Fernando (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-felipe-massa-qa-fernandos-alonso-driving-is-amazing/)


Every driver, consciously or otherwise, has his teammate as a point of reference and it’s not easy to accept or to explain the large difference in points that currently exists between Felipe and Fernando. However, Felipe is not the sort to hide from the truth and provides honest answers to our questions.
“I think that this year, the only race where there really was a big difference between me and Fernando was in Australia and then, in Malaysia the rain made it more complicated to get a clear picture. Starting in China, the difference in qualifying between the two of us was not so dramatic. Even in Barcelona, but for the traffic, my time in Q2 was in line with previous events and on Sunday my pace was not that far off. I think we must also take into account that, at the moment, Fernando’s driving is amazing. He is on super form, maybe even perfect.”

It’s a difficult question, but equally, it’s one that, one way or another, needs to be asked. Has there ever been the doubt in your mind that you are no longer as quick since the accident in Budapest?
“I have asked myself that forty five thousand times and don’t think I haven’t and why wouldn’t I: having won so much over three years, eleven races, the question is obvious. And it’s not as though I only stuck to asking myself: I went looking for the answer, asking a whole host of questions and undergoing as many medical examinations. All the doctors I consulted are prepared to swear hand on heart that there are absolutely no traces of the impact with the spring. As for myself, I don’t feel in any way different to the way I was before that weekend. For example, if it was true that I no longer had the same will to win as before or the same courage, then how can one explain the fact that, at the race start, I am probably still one of the best drivers and I am not the sort to hold back when it comes to overtaking?"
I like his attitude. It's time to open up that can of whip-ass baby ;)

I am probably still one of the best drivers It's time to start demonstrating it; your team needs you :)

[Malbec]

Malbec, even though you've raised a great point, you might still be missing the fact that Massa isn't getting anything for Ferrari - he's got just two points in five races. Even though bringing a replacement in would be a huge risk, unless Felipe manages to raise his game substantially, it would be a disaster for the red cars to keep him there. Bringing Sutil or Alguersuari in could backfire, but even if it did, how much would Ferrari lose? It's not like Massa is earning a lot of points, so it wouldn't really make much of a difference even if Felipe's replacement did actually worse.

I don't think the points situation tells the full story though. Massa has been hit by penalties that have prevented him from scoring points IIRC at Barcelona. Also, in Bahrain he was definitely very close to Alonso's pace. In addition Ferrari will be working closely with him to try and identify and correct the problems he has, they will be working on the assumption that he will improve, not continue his current poor performance as he addresses these issues.

There is also a lot of information we simply don't have to hand as outsiders. For example, it has always seemed to me that Ferrari's support from the very beginning of Massa's career was over and above that warranted by his talent. I know that he is managed by Nicolas Todt and his father is long gone from Ferrari but I suspect there is a strong pro-Massa camp within the Ferrari team. If so, getting rid of Massa mid-season may be impossible or could risk serious disruption within the team. Also it is possible that Ferrari have noted an improvement in Massa's pace (for example in Bahrain) and accept that other factors have prevented him from good points finishes in more recent races like Barcelona. If so, they will simply believe that in time Massa will get his break and start to score good points.

All this is speculation but what I'm trying to say is that its wrong to assume that Massa will continue merely to score the odd point here and there while Alonso goes for podiums and victories. Of course things may be different if four or five races on this is still the case, but don't assume that another driver will simply slot in and start giving Alonso a hard time.

[N4D13]

Thanks for your opinion - it's nice to read about such a well-founded viewpoint. ;)

I can't disagree with what you're saying, but, still, if Felipe didn't raise his game in a few races, wouldn't it be worth trying to give the drive to someone else? It has certain risks associated - I hadn't thought about Ferrari being divided as a result of firing Massa -, but someone might do a better job. Just "might", of course... it's a gamble, and it may pay off or it may not.

[Bagwan]

If properly coddled , Mousa could get you points at one time .

They've been trying since the beginning of the season to make the car suit him , and he clearly still struggles .

He brings in a lot of excuses , and perhaps it all adds up to just a gnarly start to the season .
And , perhaps it is magnified by the fact that Fernando is driving not just well , but far better than we thought .
Then , of course , there's that pea under his mattresses .

At what point does Ferrari have to make the decision whether loyalty to Felipe is worth the millions that keeping him risks ?

[Malbec]

Thanks for your opinion - it's nice to read about such a well-founded viewpoint. ;)

I can't disagree with what you're saying, but, still, if Felipe didn't raise his game in a few races, wouldn't it be worth trying to give the drive to someone else? It has certain risks associated - I hadn't thought about Ferrari being divided as a result of firing Massa -, but someone might do a better job. Just "might", of course... it's a gamble, and it may pay off or it may not.

I suspect most teams would, but we're talking about Ferrari which is deeply conservative about picking drivers at the best of times.

Anyway thats just my opinion. Personally I think if Ferrari were going o replace him they'd have already done it by now.

[zako85]

Last year, I felt a little perplexed when I heard that Ferrari decided to keep Massa for 2012. This seemed like a bad call. The justifications heard on forums were that "Alonso is happy with Massa". Last year, though, the gap between Ferrari teammates was not as big as is now. In an alternative universe scenario where Kubica managed to recover fast enough, I'd like to see Kubica take over the second driver seat at least in some races.. but this could be something from sci-fi..

[pino]

Give it up guys, Ferrari will stick with Massa until the end of the season...no matter what. :p :

[steveaki13]

Hmmm.....

If Ferrari do get rid of Massa, then would Rubens replace him?

I don't think it would work out if he did. Remembering his years as number 2 at Ferrari and his refusal to accept the situation, despite it still happening in front of him, coupled with the season at Brawn when he was paranoid about being a number 2 again, didn't he say he would never be a number 2 again.

If he returned to Ferrari, then he would have no choice but to be number 2 and Alonso would be given every advantage over Rubens surely and any time he is ahead he would be told to move over.... No?

Can't see Rubens really being able to handle this, so I don't see it.

[F1boat]

Hmmm.....

If Ferrari do get rid of Massa, then would Rubens replace him?


NO GOD! PLEASE NO!!! NOOOOOOOOOO - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc)
:D

[Bagwan]

Give it up guys, Ferrari will stick with Massa until the end of the season...no matter what. :p :

I wouldn't be too sure about that , Pino .

Does this quote from Luca sound a little like an ultimatum ?
"A series of circumstances and the work done here to improve the car, as well as Alonso's great ability, has led to us leading the Championship after five rounds. We must capitalize on that, with each one of us giving our very best at home and at the race track, including Massa who must bring home the results we expect from him."

He speaks of the "great ability" of Fernando , and uses "must" in reference to Felipe's shortcomings .
One is exceeding expectations , and the other is not meeting them .

Using "must" in that quote , I think , is very telling .


I guess the obvious question for you is , why should they keep him ?

[pino]

I wouldn't be too sure about that , Pino .

I guess the obvious question for you is , why should they keep him ?

Probably because except for Trulli...there isn't a better driver available at the moment ;)

[SGWilko]

Probably because except for Trulli...there isn't a better driver available at the moment ;)

Oh no - don't start a Trulli v Villeneuve 'best No. 2 driver' fight...... ;)

[pino]

Oh no - don't start a Trulli v Villeneuve 'best No. 2 driver' fight...... ;)

Actually if I were Luca I would sign both of them :p :

[SGWilko]

Actually if I were Luca I would sign both of them :p :

And pay Santander to not have Alonso in the car??? :D

[pino]

And pay Santander to not have Alonso in the car??? :D

I would probably talk to my Bank and do that :p :

[Bagwan]

Probably because except for Trulli...there isn't a better driver available at the moment ;)

Either Jacques or Jarno will do , and both would be even better .

But what do you think Luca was intimating with the "must" quote , but that he must improve , or else ?

[pino]

Either Jacques or Jarno will do , and both would be even better .

But what do you think Luca was intimating with the "must" quote , but that he must improve , or else ?

Exactly, Massa must just improve his performances that's all. As I don't have the video interview I can't judge the tone of his voice so nothing else for now...

[Bagwan]

Exactly, Massa must just improve his performances that's all. As I don't have the video interview I can't judge the tone of his voice so nothing else for now...

I see .
It seems the tone of Luca's voice might see you change your mind about how long wee Felipe may stay .

For having reminded us often that he would be there until the end of the year , it doesn't seem you're so sure after all .

[pino]

I see .
It seems the tone of Luca's voice might see you change your mind about how long wee Felipe may stay .

For having reminded us often that he would be there until the end of the year , it doesn't seem you're so sure after all .

I am still sure Massa will stay until the end of the season...Luca might not :p :

[Bagwan]

I am still sure Massa will stay until the end of the season...Luca might not :p :

Cagey answer .

"Staying" doesn't necessarily mean "driving" , does it ? .

The "must" was regarding Massa'a performance , not Luca's .
Besides , Luca already has the best job in Italy .
He'll go nowhere ; nowhere but the secret red telephone booth hotline to Jarno's winery .

[SGWilko]

I see .
It seems the tone of Luca's voice might see you change your mind about how long wee Felipe may stay .

For having reminded us often that he would be there until the end of the year , it doesn't seem you're so sure after all .

The point is, Ferrari know full well how badly it can go changing drivers mid season - once bitten and all that. They would HAVE to put a driver in their car that has racing knowledge of the 2012 tyres as well as the current Ferrari.

Facing facts, bar having a grumble in the press, there is little that can be done this year.

[pino]

The point is, Ferrari know full well how badly it can go changing drivers mid season - once bitten and all that. They would HAVE to put a driver in their car that has racing knowledge of the 2012 tyres as well as the current Ferrari.

Facing facts, bar having a grumble in the press, there is little that can be done this year.

Bingo ! :up:

[Bagwan]

The point is, Ferrari know full well how badly it can go changing drivers mid season - once bitten and all that. They would HAVE to put a driver in their car that has racing knowledge of the 2012 tyres as well as the current Ferrari.

Facing facts, bar having a grumble in the press, there is little that can be done this year.

How much worse can it get , though , as Felipe baby has earned on average , less than a point per race ?
And , this is while the same car in the hands of his team-mate , is equal first in the standings .

Maybe Massa still has it , and it's just that the car doesn't suit him . It wouldn't be the first time someone had a hard time driving Alonso's car .
Whatever the reason , he's become someone they cannot count on to be anywhere near the front , and that's a problem .

And , there are a few guys out there who would relish the chance to show they are no Fish .

[Hawkmoon]

They would HAVE to put a driver in their car that has racing knowledge of the 2012 tyres as well as the current Ferrari.

I'm not so sure. Raikkonen was out of the sport for two years, had no experience with either the car or the tyres and has done rather well. It is possible for a driver to get up to speed quickly. Sure Raikkonen is more talented than anybody currently available and had winter testing to get familiar with the car and tyres but Ferrari aren't looking for a driver to come in and contend for the title. They're simply looking for an upgrade over Massa which will be pretty easy to achieve. All the driver has to do is score 4 points in 5 races and he'll have delivered double Massa's return so far this year.

Ferrari can give a new driver time to learn because Massa has set such a low benchmark so far.

[SGWilko]

I'm not so sure. Raikkonen was out of the sport for two years, had no experience with either the car or the tyres and has done rather well. It is possible for a driver to get up to speed quickly. Sure Raikkonen is more talented than anybody currently available and had winter testing to get familiar with the car and tyres but Ferrari aren't looking for a driver to come in and contend for the title. They're simply looking for an upgrade over Massa which will be pretty easy to achieve. All the driver has to do is score 4 points in 5 races and he'll have delivered double Massa's return so far this year.

Ferrari can give a new driver time to learn because Massa has set such a low benchmark so far.

Yes, but with new rules and new for 2012 tyres he had the same amount of prep as the other drivers.

[Hawkmoon]

Yes, but with new rules and new for 2012 tyres he had the same amount of prep as the other drivers.

True, but Ferrari can give a driver 5 races to get up to speed and only need a single 9th place to equal Massa's tally. Anything more than that is a bonus. Massa has set such a low benchmark that his replacement only needs to get into Q3 and finish at the bottom of the top 10 to be an improvement.

Ferrari really don't have much to lose by replacing the Brazilian.

[Bezza]

I think personally Felipe Massa has one, maybe two, races left to prove himself. He is on a “final warning” now I believe, and any more poor races like the four of the first five, and I think Ferrari will sideline him.

There are three drivers available who I believe will do a better job than Massa, and will be happy to drive for Ferrari for a fraction of the what a fully signed up driver will pay for. These drivers are:

Adrian Sutil
Jarno Trulli
Jaime Alguersuari

All with recent experience and with good speed in inferior cars. A contract for them until the end of 2012 would be beneficial for everybody.

I believe Massa has zero confidence now, and will effectively be forced into retirement once Ferrari release him, his reputation has been battered by Alonso’s superiority.

My personal prediction?

Massa to crash in Monaco, finish out of the points in Canada and be replaced thereafter by…..




JARNO TRULLI !!!

[Garry Walker]

I think personally Felipe Massa has one, maybe two, races left to prove himself. He is on a “final warning” now I believe, and any more poor races like the four of the first five, and I think Ferrari will sideline him.

There are three drivers available who I believe will do a better job than Massa, and will be happy to drive for Ferrari for a fraction of the what a fully signed up driver will pay for. These drivers are:

Adrian Sutil
Jarno Trulli
Jaime Alguersuari



The Slasher? Why would Ferrari hire someone like him after his stupid actions? From talent point of view he deserves a seat, but based on what he did, he deserves no seat in F1 ever again.
Trulli? The guy who was fired in favour of Petrov? No way, he is just too old and his performances against Kovalainen were not too good. So no way Ferrari will hire him, espescially seeing what happened with Fisi.
Alguersuari? What has he ever done in F1? Nothing. Replacing a race winner with a guy who has done nothing would make Ferrari look stupid.

I agree that Massa is really not up to it at the moment. Sadly, his career was destroyed by the accident at Hungary and being a nr.2 driver ti Alonso means that he, as a driver who more than most needs mental support from his team to perform, is nowhere near the driver he was a couple of seasons ago. He will not get a contract from Ferrari for 2013 and the indications are that probably his career will be over with after this year. But replacing him is just nonsense, Ferrari doesn't have anyone to replace him with. That isn't to say Ferrari won't take a gamble on someone like Perez, but the guys you mentioned in my view are not deserving of the seat and Ferrari will not consider them.

[Knock-on]

Gazza. Ferrari have opted for a Donkey before: remember....

However, I think you may be right and it unlikely that either of those three will replace him (not if, but when).

As for all this namby, pamby crap about the accident. Clutching at straws. He has always been fragile even if he's a nice bloke. Rob cannot polish a turd and the only thing Massa can do now is to destroy other peoples races as he's encouraged to do.

[tfp]

Maybe the thread should be renamed "who should replace massa" :p

Cant see any of the three mentioned above being any good, Sutil for stupid behaviour off the track, Trulli because his performance was lacking against Heikki (But I must admit I think heikki is by far and away the best of the back runners) and Jaime diddnt really set the world on fire. My opinion? I think they could do a lot worse than Rubens! Or maybe Perez?

[Knock-on]

Maybe the thread should be renamed "who should replace massa" :p

Cant see any of the three mentioned above being any good, Sutil for stupid behaviour off the track, Trulli because his performance was lacking against Heikki (But I must admit I think heikki is by far and away the best of the back runners) and Jaime diddnt really set the world on fire. My opinion? I think they could do a lot worse than Rubens! Or maybe Perez?


I've said Rubens before but Ferrari are a team that will cut their nose off to spite their face. I would love to see Rubens given a shot because this time, he won't lay down.

[Hawkmoon]

I've said Rubens before but Ferrari are a team that will cut their nose off to spite their face. I would love to see Rubens given a shot because this time, he won't lay down.

It's hard to lie down when your teammate is way ahead of you and let's face it, Alonso isn't going to be troubled by Barrichello.

If Ferrari are looking for a stop-gap until the end of the season then they have a lot of options. Pretty much any driver who has raced in F1 in the last couple of years and who is currently out of a drive. If they are looking for a more permanent solution then they probably have to buy out the contract of a young driver from another team, Perez being an obvious example.

As Ferrari haven't really been keen to promote young drivers to a race seat I figure they'd be more likely to look for a stop-gap and at the same time look at more permanent options for 2013 and beyond. Mark Webber anyone?

[SGWilko]

It's hard to lie down when your teammate is way ahead of you and let's face it, Alonso isn't going to be troubled by Barrichello.

If Ferrari are looking for a stop-gap until the end of the season then they have a lot of options. Pretty much any driver who has raced in F1 in the last couple of years and who is currently out of a drive. If they are looking for a more permanent solution then they probably have to buy out the contract of a young driver from another team, Perez being an obvious example.

As Ferrari haven't really been keen to promote young drivers to a race seat I figure they'd be more likely to look for a stop-gap and at the same time look at more permanent options for 2013 and beyond. Mark Webber anyone?

Given Luca's political aspirations, and the current financial noose around the Eurozone's kneck, I don't forsee any contracts being bought out.

Massa will IMVHO remain in the car until the end of the season. Maybe we will see a driver given a shot in FP1?

[Malbec]

There are three drivers available who I believe will do a better job than Massa, and will be happy to drive for Ferrari for a fraction of the what a fully signed up driver will pay for. These drivers are:

Adrian Sutil
Jarno Trulli
Jaime Alguersuari

All with recent experience and with good speed in inferior cars. A contract for them until the end of 2012 would be beneficial for everybody.


Adrian Sutil who has a criminal conviction to his name? I can see how the Ferrari brand would love that synergy... at least Adrian used a champagne flute instead of a knife, I'm sure the Ferrari PR guys can get a positive spin on that for the yachting crowd.

Jarno Trulli? Hold on, isn't the problem here that Massa is a confidence driver who's lost his confidence? Isn't Trulli the very definition of a confidence driver who's no good if he gets his head down? OK, I don't think Ferrari are stupid enough to make the same mistake twice.

Jaime Alguersuari was discarded by STR who claimed he wasn't quick enough nor intelligent enough to be a future WDC, nor was he good enough to even be reserve driver for RBR. Sorry, don't see that one happening.

There's an interesting article on Autosport pointing at Kobayashi as the best option for the job and its well argued but I'm not changing my line here, Ferrari won't replace Massa, it doesn't make sense to as its too much of a risk.

[Firstgear]

........... it doesn't make sense to as its too much of a risk.
The word 'risk' implies that there is the potential for something to be lost. If Massa can't do well enough to score points, there is nothing to lose by replacing him.
So, it's no risk at all, just a matter of finding someone better.

[jens]

Both sides of the argument are valid. It is highly unlikely the replacement driver would do well, taking into account, how hard this car is to drive. But also as Massa isn't basically scoring any points at all, they don't have literally anything to lose by replacing him. For instance in 2011 Ferrari had more to lose by replacing Massa, who despite already performing very underwhelmingly was getting places from 5th to 7th and regular points. So in the end it doesn't matter if the new driver struggles badly - the same "pointless" situation just carries on.

One point, which has been made, is whether Ferrari believes Massa can actually raise his game and perform on an acceptable level (the Bahrain GP one) more often. Sure if this materializes, it would be the easiest solution for Ferrari. But can Ferrari keep hoping for it forever, because Massa hasn't performed badly just for a few races this season, this is the underperformance of more than two seasons.

I like Trulli, but I am afraid he could struggle significantly in this situation, like Fisichella did in 2009. Especially as he is the kind of driver, who needs a well-balanced car to perform, which Ferrari arguably is not.

[ArrowsFA1]

I doubt whether Ferrari will replace Massa before the end of the season, but the problem remains that he has momentum in the wrong direction. It's hard to see him making sufficient improvement to retain his seat for 2013.

[Knock-on]

Thanks Malbec. You have just replaced my #1 fantasy with a new one....


Instead of dreaming of an idyllic heaven involving Nuns, a bubble making machine, 3 dozen slightly over-ripe Apricots and a can of WD40, I will now be forever stuck with the mental image of Koby sticking one up the inside of Fred (Ohh, Err Missus).

Thanks a bloody lot :p

[Nem14]

That hasn't yet been mentioned as a possible replacement for Filipe Massa.

Granted, it's been a few years since I last drove a formula car, but I drove my shifter kart earlier this week. ; )

No doubt, I still know how to win (right down there in my siggy ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ I learned the secret from Fangio).

I'm guessing I'll get added to the list next week sometime.

[SGWilko]

Thanks Malbec. You have just replaced my #1 fantasy with a new one....


Instead of dreaming of an idyllic heaven involving Nuns, a bubble making machine, 3 dozen slightly over-ripe Apricots and a can of WD40, I will now be forever stuck with the mental image of Koby sticking one up the inside of Fred (Ohh, Err Missus).

Thanks a bloody lot :p

Presumably your fantasy includes a free supply of water and copious amounts of washing up liquid to go in the bubble making machine?

And, whilst Koby is sticking it up the inside of fred, is he chomping on a Yaki Soba??????

[gloomyDAY]

My prediction is that Ferrari will bite the bullet and ride this wave out with Felipe. Surely, Ferrari can't make the same BAD-oer decision again!

Wait...Luca di Montezeloco is at the helm. Nevermind! Bring on Jules.


That hasn't yet been mentioned as a possible replacement for Filipe Massa.

Granted, it's been a few years since I last drove a formula car, but I drove my shifter kart earlier this week. ; )

No doubt, I still know how to win (right down there in my siggy ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ ↓ I learned the secret from Fangio).

I'm guessing I'll get added to the list next week sometime.Pics or I'm calling BS.

[Knock-on]

Presumably your fantasy includes a free supply of water and copious amounts of washing up liquid to go in the bubble making machine?


Water and washing up liquid :confused: Do you think I'm some sort of pervert or something :angryfire

:D

[DexDexter]

I've said Rubens before but Ferrari are a team that will cut their nose off to spite their face. I would love to see Rubens given a shot because this time, he won't lay down.

Why consider Rubens when there are so many younger fast guys around? Like Adrian Sutil or Jaime.


Adrian Sutil who has a criminal conviction to his name? I can see how the Ferrari brand would love that synergy... at least Adrian used a champagne flute instead of a knife, I'm sure the Ferrari PR guys can get a positive spin on that for the yachting crowd.



Sutil's assault conviction wouldn't harm Ferrari at all. Come on, we are talking about Italy where organised crime runs deep in the society more or less everywhere and whose former Prime Minister was Silvio Berlusconi. If he didn't hurt the image of Italian products, neither will a fast German racing driver who made a stupid mistake.

[F1boat]

DexDexter, your post is quite offensive to Italians. Sure they have strong organized crime, but you can't say that it is part of their society.
I agree with you about Rubens, though. He was never that good and was hired to be a 2nd driver. He got good money about that. That's the whole story.

[Malbec]

Sutil's assault conviction wouldn't harm Ferrari at all. Come on, we are talking about Italy where organised crime runs deep in the society more or less everywhere and whose former Prime Minister was Silvio Berlusconi. If he didn't hurt the image of Italian products, neither will a fast German racing driver who made a stupid mistake.

Thats quite an offensive ignorant post but I'll ignore your portrayal of Italians as an inherently criminal people. Ferrari sees itself as a top brand, why associate itself with a driver with a criminal record when there are plenty of other choices around? Why would they want to have the hassle of clearing visas etc into the many countries around the world that make it difficult for those with criminal records to come into their countries? Its not as if Sutil is unique in being quick and available, and he doesn't have experience of 2012 Pirellis to boot.

[pino]

Why consider Rubens when there are so many younger fast guys around? Like Adrian Sutil or Jaime.



Sutil's assault conviction wouldn't harm Ferrari at all. Come on, we are talking about Italy where organised crime runs deep in the society more or less everywhere and whose former Prime Minister was Silvio Berlusconi. If he didn't hurt the image of Italian products, neither will a fast German racing driver who made a stupid mistake.

Would love to reply to you in a proper way but this is a F1 forum so I will just ignore it. Please in the future leave that crap off here thank you !

[CavallinoRampante]

Why consider Rubens when there are so many younger fast guys around? Like Adrian Sutil or Jaime.



Sutil's assault conviction wouldn't harm Ferrari at all. Come on, we are talking about Italy where organised crime runs deep in the society more or less everywhere and whose former Prime Minister was Silvio Berlusconi. If he didn't hurt the image of Italian products, neither will a fast German racing driver who made a stupid mistake.

I can't believe that in 2012 people can make general assumptions and depict like that a whole nation of people who have:

1. a lower homicide rate compared to northern Europe
2. a lower divorce rate compard to northern Europe
3. Stronger family values compared to northern Europe.
4. a small 60 million people and an incredibly diverse spectrum of abilities, in automotive, electronics, design, technology, fashion , architecture and arts. Italy has contributed to modern society more than its dues, with Roman Architecture, and the SMARTEST and more genial inventors and artists who ever lived on this earth:

Leonardo Da Vinci, Galileo Galilei, Alessandro Volta (you know your 1.2 VOLT battery), Marconi, Raffaello, Michelangelo, Giotto, Caravaggio, I don't want to mention more.. but.. why not? Cristoforo Colombo, Amerigo Vespucci (why is America calld America? .. after an Italian explorer and that's not even Marco Polo).

Should we talk Bike brands or car brands? who has more compared to population?

Sports? 4 time WC in the most popular sport in the world,

Great swimmers ruling Europe as we can see during these days.

But there's more .. I just don't have time...


now a guy come out of nowhere depicting all Italians like criminals? Please where are you from? Finland? What has Finland done for the world? What is Finland known for besides Icey weather?

[pino]

Enough with politcs and other stuff...now back to racing and Massa thank you ! :)

[pino]

Massa so far so good...

[ShiftingGears]

Solid performance by Massa, however it will not be good enough if he doesn't back it up with a solid race as well.

[Dave B]

Very close to Alonso's time, so there's no real excuse for finishing a lap down come race day. Let's see how he does.

[ArrowsFA1]

Much better from Massa today. Can he maintain it tomorrow?

[jens]

Impressive performance by Massa and I suspect in the end this is what keeps him in the Ferrari seat until the end of the season. Shows glimpses of speed, but they are few and far between and he collects only few points over a season, but yet any potential mid-season replacement is expected to perform even worse and that's how it goes...

[steveaki13]

Pleased for Massa, a great Qualifying effort and was right in the top 4 teams mix, he really has had a proper race now.

Lets hope he can keep this level up now.

[N4D13]

Massa drove a fine race - although it's hard to say that he drove a great race. It's true that he was very close to Alonso at the beginning of the race, but Fernando was just saving tyres, so you can't draw any conclusions for that. Anyway, it's obvious that the Monaco race has been a huge improvement, and if Felipe can keep this level in the next races, there's no reason why Ferrari would want to replace him.

[Robinho]

Great job today, right on the pace, lacked the cutting edge to advance through the pitstops, but thats a tiny speck in a good performance, i hope he can take that onto the aero tracks, as there is clearly nothing wrong with his mechanical grip driving, his accuracy or bravery, just something missing when extracting the best of the car when its aero dependent

Sent from my Transformer Prime TF201 using Tapatalk 2

[DexDexter]

Would love to reply to you in a proper way but this is a F1 forum so I will just ignore it. Please in the future leave that crap off here thank you !

I can't believe you're so sensitive about this but anyway, I'll let it be. A very good performance from Massa today, he basically matched Alonso the whole race.

[Malbec]

I can't believe you're so sensitive about this but anyway, I'll let it be.

I think you need to have a look at what you wrote. You are not in a position to 'let it be', the people responding to your comment are.


A very good performance from Massa today, he basically matched Alonso the whole race.

Agreed, only 4 seconds off at the chequered flag and he was certainly harassing Lewis for quite a bit of the race. Its true that Monaco is not typical with loads of slow corners and isn't reflective of other tracks but Massa was also quick in Bahrain. Lets hope that he's turned the corner and today's result I'm sure would have improved the confidence of a driver who needs it to go quick.

[aryan]

Good job by Filipe today. It could have been even better had he matched in Q2 lap in in Q3 quali on Saturday.

I think his seat is safe for the rest of the season.

[Hawkmoon]

Easily Massa's best effort of the season. I think Ferrari would be quite happy if he qualified solidly in the top 10 and finished around the middle of the points each race. He would be providing solid points for the WCC and not taking points off Alonso. I hope he keeps it up because I take no pleasure from seeing a Ferrari trundle around outside the points.

[DexDexter]

I think you need to have a look at what you wrote. You are not in a position to 'let it be', the people responding to your comment are.



Agreed, only 4 seconds off at the chequered flag and he was certainly harassing Lewis for quite a bit of the race. Its true that Monaco is not typical with loads of slow corners and isn't reflective of other tracks but Massa was also quick in Bahrain. Lets hope that he's turned the corner and today's result I'm sure would have improved the confidence of a driver who needs it to go quick.


Ok, I chose my words too harshly and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to insult anybody, I was just referring to information from credible sources, for example "Mafia crime is 7% of GDP in Italy.
From the weaving factories, to tourism to business and personal services, from farming to public contracts to real estate and finance, the criminal presence is consolidated in every economic activity," the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/world/europe/22iht-italy.4.8001812.html


If somebody wants to ban me for that then go ahead, I mean I'm so much worse than these garrywalkers and ioans that riot here all the time. That's it for this offtopic stuff for me. I still think Sutil would be a good candidate if Massa were to be replaced.

[pino]

Ok, I chose my words too harshly and for that I apologize. I didn't mean to insult anybody, I was just referring to information from credible sources, for example "Mafia crime is 7% of GDP in Italy.
From the weaving factories, to tourism to business and personal services, from farming to public contracts to real estate and finance, the criminal presence is consolidated in every economic activity," the report said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/22/world/europe/22iht-italy.4.8001812.html


If somebody wants to ban me for that then go ahead, I mean I'm so much worse than these garrywalkers and ioans that riot here all the time. That's it for this offtopic stuff for me. I still think Sutil would be a good candidate if Massa were to be replaced.

None will ever ban you for this, just it doesn't belong to this forum not to mention that it's very offensive. Anyway feel free to start a thread in Chit Chat were you can discuss how bad and corrupt is my country. Now please let's stick to the topic which is Massa thank you :)

[SGWilko]

None will ever ban you for this, just it doesn't belong to this forum not to mention that it's very offensive. Anyway feel free to start a thread in Chit Chat were you can discuss how bad and corrupt is my country. Now please let's stick to the topic which is Massa thank you :)

Show me a country is not corrupt! Look at us lot over here - MP's with their hands in the till, PM as good as in bed with the media...

[F1boat]

It is good that Massa drove well on the hardest race in the calendar. Maybe he finally solved his issues and let's be honest, in the last two races Button performs as Felipe did in Oz. This year's F1 is hard to master. Although it may mean nothing - Planet F1 suggests that Pirelli had bring special, more conventional tires for Monte and if this is true, Felipe may struggle again in Canada. I hope not, though.
About politics there is the Chit Chat forum IMO.

[kfzmeister]

Sutil's assault conviction wouldn't harm Ferrari at all. Come on, we are talking about Italy where organised crime runs deep in the society more or less everywhere and whose former Prime Minister was Silvio Berlusconi. If he didn't hurt the image of Italian products, neither will a fast German racing driver who made a stupid mistake.

Lmao. Funny as hell, and true!

Also true that there are some overly sensitive people on this board!

[pino]

Lmao. Funny as hell, and true!

Also true that there are some overly sensitive people on this board!

You're right, it was funny and true, still this isn't the place for that and I've asked to stick to the topic...so difficult to respect my request ? :s

[Garry Walker]

If somebody wants to ban me for that then go ahead, I mean I'm so much worse than these garrywalkers and ioans that riot here all the time.
Wow, is crap like that okay?

[Knock-on]

Wow, is crap like that okay?



Man up Garry. You can't throw rocks and not expect a bit of shingle to bounce back ;)


Massa did well this weekend in that he wasn't too far behind Alonso which is where he's supposed to be. Shame that he has to be read the riot act by Ferrari to motivate him into driving as he should be. Lets see if can maintain the level of performance he should be achieving at every race or if he becomes demotivated again.

Rather puts to bed the idea that he can't race any more due to his accident :D What a load of codswallop that was.

BTW Pino. Where's my phone and wallet!!! :D

[donKey jote]

BTW Pino. Where's my phone and wallet!!! :D

got pinched by a drunken Finn with a knife? :dozey: :andrea:

[Garry Walker]

Man up Garry. You can't throw rocks and not expect a bit of shingle to bounce back ;)

Don't worry, I am not even slighty bothered or offended by it, just wanted to know if such comments are okay, for future references :D

[kfzmeister]

Rather puts to bed the idea that he can't race any more due to his accident :D What a load of codswallop that was.

This! I always thought that argument was weak.


BTW Pino. Where's my phone and wallet!!! :D

Lmao, swimming with the fishes....

[Knock-on]

This! I always thought that argument was weak.

It was a good excuse at the time for people trying to justify his pace. Fact is, he needs constant help, encouragement and threats to make him perform to a required level. I have never heard a driver being cajouled so much during a GP as Massa is.



Lmao, swimming with the fishes....

Without taking the thread off track, Pino knows what I'm on about :laugh: Sorry, private joke :D

[airshifter]

It was a good excuse at the time for people trying to justify his pace. Fact is, he needs constant help, encouragement and threats to make him perform to a required level. I have never heard a driver being cajouled so much during a GP as Massa is.


Did he need constant help when he came within a point of winning a WDC? In his first three years with Ferrari he finished 2nd, 3rd and 4th in the WDC standings (not in that order though). Before the accident in 2009 he was probably equal to or ahead of Kimi in the points.

Since the accident the best he has done is 6th, with Alonso being very close to the WDC in points at the end of one season, and having over twice the points that Felipe did in other seasons,

I can find evidence that he has not maintained the gap to his team mates since after the accident, but have a hard time finding evidence that his driving was just as good. If you've got that evidence I'd like to see where it's at. ;)

[jens]

This! I always thought that argument was weak.


How is the argument weak? Look at some of his qualifying laps from 2008 and tell me, how can they be compared to his current level.

It is like saying the Button, who was stuck behind Caterham's Kovalainen at Monaco, is as good as the Button, who finished second in WDC standings last year. Or the Vettel, who got record amount of pole positions last year, was as good when he qualified 11th in China.

[Knock-on]

Felipe Massa praises "incredible" Ferrari team-mate Fernando Alonso - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102069)

Well, it sounds to me like Massa is in awe of his team mate and has no answer. I could have told him that.

Massa has the option of being Alonsos puppy or getting out of Ferrari.

[steveaki13]

He might as well give it full banannas now, as he ain't staying there for next year.

Shame whats happened to Felipe, hope he can get a drive somewhere and have a decent end to his career.

[Garry Walker]

How is the argument weak? Look at some of his qualifying laps from 2008 and tell me, how can they be compared to his current level.

Indeed. Massa of now is a joke compared to who he was in 2008.

[pino]

Spa and Monza will be crucial races for Massa future...eventhough many at Ferrari wants Luca to reconfirm him :eek:

;)

[tfp]

I hope when (It is inevitable) Massa is replaced, Freds new team mate will be allowed to chase for the win if he gets the opportunity.
Will Perez have the ferrari seat next year?

[Tazio]

^^^ That’s a good question. It appeared that Ferrari cooled on him earlier in the season.
Remember this:

However, the 22-year-old has subsequently stated that while he is "very comfortable" at Sauber, he wants "to win races as soon as possible.

"That, though, won't be with Ferrari next season as di Montezemolo has poured cold water over the suggestion.

"No," the Italian told Reuters. "Perez is a good driver but to drive a Ferrari you need more experience I’ve been backing Felipe's play, but enough is enough, It's over. I think they need to reevaluate Perez.

[kfzmeister]

Adrian Sutil makes sense for Massa's seat. People have been quietly talking about him in the background.
He's fast, will undoubtedly get Ferrari points and is no threat to Alonso.

[Tazio]

Slash makes sense for Massa's seat. People have been quietly talking about him in the background.
He's fast, will undoubtedly get Ferrari points and is no threat to Alonso.
Their fixed that for you! ;)
BTW +1

[Rollo]

I hope when (It is inevitable) Massa is replaced, Freds new team mate will be allowed to chase for the win if he gets the opportunity.
Will Perez have the ferrari seat next year?

I rather hope it's Kamui. I think that Kamui would be able to make that Ferrari sing better than either Massa or Perez.

[Garry Walker]

Adrian Sutil makes sense for Massa's seat. People have been quietly talking about him in the background.
He's fast, will undoubtedly get Ferrari points and is no threat to Alonso.

The Slasher? No threat to Alonso? Are you forgetting what he did to Eric Lux?

[kfzmeister]

The Slasher? No threat to Alonso? Are you forgetting what he did to Eric Lux?

He'll be the perfect teammate to take points off Alonso's biggest rival!! I've heard that they don't like each other much since the slasher incident! :eek:

[tfp]

I rather hope it's Kamui. I think that Kamui would be able to make that Ferrari sing better than either Massa or Perez.

Me too. I'd LOVE to see the Kob in a front running car. He deserves it more than Massa at the minute!

[jarrambide]

Me too. I'd LOVE to see the Kob in a front running car. He deserves it more than Massa at the minute!

I really don't know if Perez deserves the seat or not, or if he is or isn't good enough to be in a high caliber team (but then again, I also don't know why anyone already in F1 would want to be someone's #2 by decree), but after today's race, I can say that Kobayashi doesn't seem to deserve the seat more than his team member.

Kobayashi has no podiums in 53 F1 starts, Perez, in 30 starts (all of them in the same car as Kobayashi) has 3 podiums, not to mention the 30 more points he has over Kobayashi this year.

After the first podium, one could argue Perez was just lucky with a very good strategy from his team, after two podiums, one could argue that maybe Perez was just lucky and Kobayashi had suffered from bad luck this year, but after 3 podiums from one and none from the other, maybe luck has nothing to do it with it.

Maybe Perez is not ready, maybe he is not good enough, maybe he is and we will see him as Ferrari's #2, but after 13 races, if this season is any indication, he is not deserving or at least not as deserving as his team mate of a seat in a high caliber team.

[steveaki13]

Felipe done a good job for Ferrari this weekend. Fair play to him, however i dont see it being enough to save his seat unless Ferrari cant find anyone else to play lap dog to Alonso