Ferrari's new design

[N4D13]

I've seen many people criticizing Ferrari's new design (particularly, their front suspension) and I wanted to bring something to your attention. Today, the Ferrari has had disastrous top speed, and, according to Marc Gené, that was the main weakness of the car. The car seems to have pretty decent downforce and it behaves well on the corners, but it's losing a lot of time in the straights due to its huge drag. Of course, the fault for this is Ferrari's new design, but at least, it's not about their suspension, but because of poor aerodynamics.

If they can turn things around, the car might actually turn to be much better than it is now. Whether they could challenge for wins or not, no one can say, but I would be surprised if they didn't manage to fix their problems in a few races and they didn't get back to the front rather soon.

By they way, I can't provide a link to a source because Gené said this live on TV during qualifying, so you'll have to trust me on this one. ;)

[wedge]

Mark Hughes in this week's Autosport said the package within the sidepod is too compromising to optimise the exhausts and directing the hot air properly without burning up the rear tyres.

Basically it's likely going to be a B-spec because the sidepods will have to be redesigned and incorporate the side impact structures.

[Malbec]

Is the poor top speed really due to high drag or is it at least partly due to a poor exit speed because it doesn't look very tied down in corners?

[wedge]

Gary Anderson:


"Ferrari's performance here has been worse than testing. The problem is in the aerodynamic package. They need to take a step backwards and look at the basic aero package. They'll have to go backwards to go forwards. They talked about an aggressive design but they have to have reasons for that and I think they've missed the boat. The way the front geometry is doesn't make the front tyres work well - but it's not one thing, it's a lot of stuff."

BBC Sport - Fernando Alonso warns Ferrari need a ‘new direction’ (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17413395)

[DazzlaF1]

It reminds me a lot of the problems Jordan had with their 1998 car before it was overhauled and won in Belgium.

If anything it looks like they depended on the blown diffuser system a lot more than Red Bull ever did, it just has absolutely no rear grip in braking and cornering and as a result, it drifts in braking causing the car to swerve towrds the centre of the road or the grass and when even a driver as good as Alonso exeriences that, you know you have some major problems

So maybe to cover for the blown diffuser ban, in promising an "Aggressive design" maybe they've gone too aggressive and its not a quick fix problem, it might force Ferrari to bring out a sort of B-Spec car sometime this season if they want to have any chance of being competitive

[Roamy]

Keep an eye out for Briatore - He will come to the rescue

[truefan72]

Massa: Ferrari worse than expected - Yahoo! Eurosport (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/17032012/58/massa-ferrari-worse-expected.html)

this is what massa is saying

TBH you could change around the words Ferrari and Massa and come up with the same result

[ioan]

Keep an eye out for Briatore - He will come to the rescue

One more reason not to like the new Ferrari team.

[ioan]

Massa: Ferrari worse than expected - Yahoo! Eurosport (http://eurosport.yahoo.com/17032012/58/massa-ferrari-worse-expected.html)

this is what massa is saying

TBH you could change around the words Ferrari and Massa and come up with the same result

He probably doesn't give a damn, and that's right after they shafted him royally in Germany 2010.
He keeps getting rich and in the end that's all that counts.

[Garry Walker]

One more reason not to like the new Ferrari team.

Briatore coming to Ferrari would actually probably make the team more worthy of respect, so low have they fallen.

[Garry Walker]

He probably doesn't give a damn, and that's right after they shafted him royally in Germany 2010.
He keeps getting rich and in the end that's all that counts.
He is embarrassing himself out there and will be out of seat after this year if he does not improve.

[Dave B]

Keep an eye out for Briatore - He will come to the rescue

A sleazy cheater is not what Ferrari - or indeed any team - need right now. The man's a disgrace, he was instrumental in ordering a driver to deliberately crash and put himself and others in harm's way. He should never be allowed near a paddock ever again.

[ioan]

He is embarrassing himself out there and will be out of seat after this year if he does not improve.

Maybe he doesn't want to continue and just wants the money.
He also must have a hell of a contract if they don't even try to remove him.

[Dave B]

[Massa] is embarrassing himself out there and will be out of seat after this year if he does not improve.

Change "after" for "during" and you might be nearer the mark :p

[ioan]

A sleazy cheater is not what Ferrari - or indeed any team - need right now. The man's a disgrace, he was instrumental in ordering a driver to deliberately crash and put himself and others in harm's way. He should never be allowed near a paddock ever again.

This! :up:

[Garry Walker]

A sleazy cheater is not what Ferrari - or indeed any team - need right now. The man's a disgrace, he was instrumental in ordering a driver to deliberately crash and put himself and others in harm's way. He should never be allowed near a paddock ever again.
Well, Ferrari already got themselves one cheat (alonso), so it is not like they can get any lower


Maybe he doesn't want to continue and just wants the money..
If that was the case, I would stop liking Massa at once and in that case he deserves to get treated worse than nr.2 by Ferrari.


Change "after" for "during" and you might be nearer the mark :p

Sadly you might be right.

[ioan]

If that was the case, I would stop liking Massa at once and in that case he deserves to get treated worse than nr.2 by Ferrari.

He did a lot for Ferrari.
He fought for the WDC in 2008 and they failed him with lost of incredible bad decisions.
He almost died in one of their cars while trying to get everything out of the turd that was the 2009 Ferrari.
And than in 2010 they shaft him when he's about to get his first win after his horrible accident! And what for? For a despicable race fixer who brought exactly nothing to Ferrari up to that point and the same nothing since then.

I were in his shoes I would have quit the team and make them look like dirt, which they are BTW, after Germany 2010, but that's me.
He could have had a seat in another team in 2010.

Now I think he doesn't care, he's doing the minimum required for his contract and pocketing the money, and I can not fault him for it as the right choice should have been made 18 months ago, and now it's too late for it.

[Garry Walker]

He did a lot for Ferrari.
He fought for the WDC in 2008 and they failed him with lost of incredible bad decisions.
He almost died in one of their cars while trying to get everything out of the turd that was the 2009 Ferrari.
And than in 2010 they shaft him when he's about to get his first win after his horrible accident! And what for? For a despicable race fixer who brought exactly nothing to Ferrari up to that point and the same nothing since then.

I were in his shoes I would have quit the team and make them look like dirt, which they are BTW, after Germany 2010, but that's me.
Yes, he should have done that. He should have told them to shove it, but instead he did the wrong thing and gave Alonso the win.

But when you say Massa did a lot for Ferrari, well, Ferrari did a huge amount for him as well. Without Ferrari his career could have been over after 2002.


Now I think he doesn't care, he's doing the minimum required for his contract and pocketing the money, and I can not fault him for it as the right choice should have been made 18 months ago, and now it's too late for it. Sadly his career will be over after this season when he keeps this. up

[F1boat]

Keep an eye out for Briatore - He will come to the rescue

It's inevitable, isn't it? Flavio may be a villain, but he knows how to win and this is something the current team needs. But in way, they are getting what they deserved. They were unfair to too many drivers - Michael in 2006, Kimi in 2009, Felipe in 2010, these things - call me a new age fool, I don't care - but sooner or later if you act unfairly, karme gets you, like it hit Williams. Now it hits Ferrari. I would be happy if they recover, I will always have a soft spot for them, but do I pity them now? No at all.

[Garry Walker]

Now it hits Ferrari. I would be happy if they recover, I will always have a soft spot for them, but do I pity them now? No at all.

Well, I hope they have many years like 1992 and 1993.

[Mia 01]

The car didn´t looked so bad in the hands of Alonso. Perhaps they can beat Mercedes in the standings this year, ofcourse that´s depend on Massa.

[jens]

Ok, so I was right to say Ferrari won't be a midfield runner. They will fix things in 2-3 races. Alonso was 4th from 12th, and the SC robbed him of a position, and he lost the heat in the tyres after the SC. Ferrari still has problems with tyre heat. With heavy fuel and mediums Alonso was only .2 slower than the front runners, with light load ,he could not get the tires heated properly and was .7-.8 slower.
Areas to iprove:Qualifying, Top speed, strategy. Slow trap speeds made it hard to overtake. Again Domenicali doesn't understand his car, because Alonso should have come out with softs for the last stint, that would have allowed him to retain 4th position.

Not bad though considering the start, 7 places gained.

Massa is a passenger, a non-factor, please get Kubica in the car or the Ferrari-driver program driver Perez in that second car.

Coping your post from another thread. :)

Well, Ferrari was better today than they looked in qualifying, so the situation is not as bad as it seemed yesterday.
But looking from another angle... I have to say that Ferrari actually is pretty much a midfield runner. But it is a very large midfield as everyone from 3rd team onwards can be considered to be part of this group. Alonso ended up 5th, but he was helped with circumstances in addition to his own great drive. Compromised qualifying of Saubers (and poor strategy of Pérez), Schumacher's problems, Maldonado's inability to pass and also Lotus didn't get everything out of the race (Grosjean's accident and Kimi was in traffic most of the time). It looks like all of them can compete with Ferrari especially when Ferrari fades at the end of stints.

[CavallinoRampante]

They will be back in Style, as soon as they can use the new chassis, reposition the exhaust, remove a couple degrees of rear wing flap, start using softs at the end of races, and hopefully get rid of Massa.

Merc is slower than Ferrari on pace, and tire fading is worse for them too.

Fernando is worth 7th-8th on the grid, not 12th, he spun out.

The SC destroyed his medium tires temps and with light fuel and a colder track he could not build the heat back into the tires... softs would have really helped a lot.

The middle section of the race, Nando was faster than Webber, and for a few laps faster than Vettel.

This means that the potential is there. They are running too much rear wing to make up the lost downforce from exhaust/diffuser disaster.....

Watch them in Europe...

[Malbec]

They will be back in Style, as soon as they can use the new chassis, reposition the exhaust, remove a couple degrees of rear wing flap, start using softs at the end of races, and hopefully get rid of Massa.

Merc is slower than Ferrari on pace, and tire fading is worse for them too.

Fernando is worth 7th-8th on the grid, not 12th, he spun out.

The SC destroyed his medium tires temps and with light fuel and a colder track he could not build the heat back into the tires... softs would have really helped a lot.

The middle section of the race, Nando was faster than Webber, and for a few laps faster than Vettel.

This means that the potential is there. They are running too much rear wing to make up the lost downforce from exhaust/diffuser disaster.....

Watch them in Europe...

I'm not sure Australia gave a good indicator of Ferrari's performance as its very much a stop start track and a bit of a one-off. Wait until Sepang where the long fast corners give a better aero workout than Melbourne and I think Ferrari's weaknesses will be exposed more.

[N. Jones]

I guess this should finally prove that Alonso is a great driver. He is hauling a piece of junk up to fifth.
With all the talk in another thread about Massa possibly being replaced due to his poor form; who could step in and get more out of the car than it deserves?

[CavallinoRampante]

I'm not sure Australia gave a good indicator of Ferrari's performance as its very much a stop start track and a bit of a one-off. Wait until Sepang where the long fast corners give a better aero workout than Melbourne and I think Ferrari's weaknesses will be exposed more.

For all we know, it might be exactly the opposite. It might well be that the long fast corners are better suited while straights and slow sections are less suited.
We also have to consider that next weekend we'll have medium and hard tires, no softs. Now that could very well hurt Ferrari if they don't use the hards with heavy fuel, at the start of the race.

Anywhere I can read sector times for each driver from today's race? I want do look at what are the best and worse sectors for Ferrari.

[ioan]

The SC destroyed his medium tires temps and with light fuel and a colder track he could not build the heat back into the tires... softs would have really helped a lot.

The SC was there for everyone else, not only for Alonso.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

For all we know, it might be exactly the opposite. It might well be that the long fast corners are better suited while straights and slow sections are less suited.
We also have to consider that next weekend we'll have medium and hard tires, no softs. Now that could very well hurt Ferrari if they don't use the hards with heavy fuel, at the start of the race.

Anywhere I can read sector times for each driver from today's race? I want do look at what are the best and worse sectors for Ferrari.

Ferrari's issues are cleary aero related. Long fast corners test the cars aero much more than straights and slow corners.

[CavallinoRampante]

The issues are more than aero related, aero affects downforce, top speed, downforce affects tyres, tyres affect lap tipmes. The problem is more complex than that for sure. I know what I have seen. Alonso being competitive in the begginning and middle stint, faster than one of the Bulls for sure, than with light fuel load (less weight on the tyres in the slow section) and a track that was getting colder at that time of the day, he wasn't able to bring the temps up, that cost him at least .5s per lap if not more.

The Ferrari still has a hard time getting the heat into the tyres, that's why the SC has penalyzed Ferrari more.

[CavallinoRampante]

Is there a site with ALL lap times from each driver?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Is there a site with ALL lap times from each driver?

You can see it on the official F1 website.

[CavallinoRampante]

I only see the BEST lap time, not a lap by lap timing table...

[Tazio]

The issues are more than aero related, aero affects downforce, top speed, downforce affects tyres, tyres affect lap tipmes. The problem is more complex than that for sure. I know what I have seen. Alonso being competitive in the begginning and middle stint, faster than one of the Bulls for sure, than with light fuel load (less weight on the tyres in the slow section) and a track that was getting colder at that time of the day, he wasn't able to bring the temps up, that cost him at least .5s per lap if not more.

The Ferrari still has a hard time getting the heat into the tyres, that's why the SC has penalyzed Ferrari more.
This may well be true. Ferrari may have worse degradation on tracks with long fast turns, but I think that abrupt turns that require good mechanical grip are exacerbated by what little down force they can produce. They are really slow in medium slow corners, without the band aid fix they have employed that compromises their top end. They need the new rig :)

[ArrowsFA1]

Is there a site with ALL lap times from each driver?
Does the FIA website have this detail?

Edit: Yes it does - Timing Information (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/timing.aspx)

[AndyL]

Does the FIA website have this detail?

Edit: Yes it does - Timing Information (http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Pages/timing.aspx)

Get it while it's hot though, it'll disappear as soon as they start putting up information for Malaysia.

[CavallinoRampante]

Thanks guys... I have gotten the info, and it's pretty interesting. It looks like be4 the safety car, Alonso's lap times were on par with Vettel and Webber, just after the safety car, from lap 42 till lap 58 every car was getting faster and faster as the fuel load got lighter, and Alonso only had marginal gain in lap times but wasn't able to go below 1.30 I am sure some of the problem was he could not use drs with Maldonado up his ass, and he was being conservative just trying to bring it home and not get pipped by Maldonado who had a faster car at the end (could use DRS).

All in all Alonso was about .4 sec per lap slower than LH in the first two stints on clear laps. That isn't bad at all.

Ferrari has got to gain .5-.6 seconds and they will be able to fight for the top spots.

They know what to work on.... traction, fix the exhaust to gain some downforce and reduce rear wing incidence at that point to get some better top speed.
Rosberg was the fastest, with a whopping 12kmph better top speed compared to Massa.

[CavallinoRampante]

It does look like Alonso will struggle in Malaysia... he carries a lower top speed in fast turns, not only the straights... So it will be very hard unless they fix something...

[Robinho]

I think the Ferrari is a mess in low fuel trim, hence the poor qually and lack of relative pace at the end of the race, whilst with high fuel load in race trim the car seemed much more stable and was competitive. SD said there are no plans for a new chassis

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

[CavallinoRampante]

I think the Ferrari is a mess in low fuel trim, hence the poor qually and lack of relative pace at the end of the race, whilst with high fuel load in race trim the car seemed much more stable and was competitive. SD said there are no plans for a new chassis

Sent from my HTC Desire HD A9191 using Tapatalk

It's different from what Italian medias have said about new chassis, or chassis mods.
The Italian press stated that the mods of the chassis at the rear were enough to warrant new crash tests.

[ioan]

SD said there are no plans for a new chassis


Which means that we'll see the new chassis around the Barcelona GP week end.

[Garry Walker]

It does look like Alonso will struggle in Malaysia...

Hopefully.

[ioan]

Hopefully.

:D

[Tazio]

The word is that Ferrari will have new crash tested chalengers by China. They are just going to do what they can with the "A" spec car in Maylasia. Hoping for rain


http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d12mal334.jpg

RW detail
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2011/d12mal343.jpg


Exhaust
http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d12mal340.jpg

Steering wheel
http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d12mal342.jpg

[N4D13]

The word is that Ferrari will have new crash tested chalengers by China. They are just going to do what they can with the "A" spec car in Maylasia. Hoping for rain
I'm not sure about whether it could be ready for China - normally, most updates would arrive at Barcelona, and a chassis update isn't a simple thing to do. But then again, I'm sure you know more about this than I do - I'm just pointing out that they might not be ready in time for the Shanghai race.

[Bagwan]

From the pre-season , before the first tests , Ferrari had stated they have a car that is radical in many ways .
I think it's obvious that they knew there was risk involved , but tried to make it all work together , and knew very early it would be difficult .

It appears that at least one aspect of this radical design is rather fundamental , requiring a new crash test .

I think this is actually a rather fundamental change for Ferrari , itself .
After only one race , they have conceded that they simply have gone down the wrong road , and are acting immediately to fix the chassis .
They are also acting quickly to get a new chassis for Felipe on a one week turnaround .

For Felipe's sake , I hope he performs better this weekend , because it doesn't seem like they want to wait around .
Michael has remarked that it might not suit him , but Italian newspapers will not be so kind with any more like the last one .

They way they are starting to look is like a much more well-oiled machine . Do not count them out .

[ioan]

They way they are starting to look is like a much more well-oiled machine .

Too much oil (olive oil, what else?) and too little machine.

[Tazio]

I'm not sure about whether it could be ready for China - normally, most updates would arrive at Barcelona, and a chassis update isn't a simple thing to do. But then again, I'm sure you know more about this than I do - I'm just pointing out that they might not be ready in time for the Shanghai race.

Another Spanish newspaper, AS, reports that Ferrari is pressing the throttle on a 'plan B,' involving a substantial redesign of the F2012 chassis for China that will involve a new FIA crash test.

F1: Trulli Linked With Massa's Ferrari Seat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-jarno-trulli-linked-with-felipe-massas-ferrari-seat)

[ioan]

F1: Trulli Linked With Massa's Ferrari Seat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-jarno-trulli-linked-with-felipe-massas-ferrari-seat)

They could as well call Baddoer.

[Tazio]

They could as well call Baddoer.
boy.....what the hell does that have to do with Ferrari haviving a "B" spec ready by China.
Maybe you could get a handle on what the conversation is about before you loose your venom on it. :s nore:

[N4D13]

Another Spanish newspaper, AS, reports that Ferrari is pressing the throttle on a 'plan B,' involving a substantial redesign of the F2012 chassis for China that will involve a new FIA crash test.
To be honest, I wouldn't really believe what is in Spanish newspapers. As and specially Marca have a history of making BS news up when they don't know what to write about. I can't stand reading either newspaper because every time I come across anything published in their websites, it makes me think that they're making stuff up or that they have copied it from some other place.

In any case, let's hope that they're right and that the new chassis will be ready for China. ;)

[ioan]

boy.....what the hell does that have to do with Ferrari haviving a "B" spec ready by China.
Maybe you could get a handle on what the conversation is about before you loose your venom on it. :s nore:

Look who's talking:


F1: Trulli Linked With Massa's Ferrari Seat (http://formula-one.speedtv.com/article/f1-jarno-trulli-linked-with-felipe-massas-ferrari-seat)

:rotflmao:
Alter ego or booze?

[Rollo]

Steering wheel
http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d12mal342.jpg

Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
I don't know.
Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Put it up to eleven.
Eleven. Exactly. One louder.

Ferrari can go even louder than eleven... Twelve. Exactly. One louder.

They also have a secret Father Jack Hackett button above the "Pump" button and to the left of the pink turndial.

[CavallinoRampante]

Looks like Alonso is doing better than expected... too eary to say it though... if he can qualify in the top 6 than he can hope to salvage another decent finish for Ferrari before the new chassis is put to work. Crossing fingers here...
To those who think Ferrari pace is between Alonso's and Massa's I think it's wrong. It's not normal for a driver to finish 10 spots below his teamate, 2 or 3 spots are understandable, but 10 means the slow guy is underpoerforming big time. What I am saying is that Alonso can have a good 2-3 tenths more than other good drivers, but not 1.5 or 2 seconds... that's unconcievable...
Ferrari though does need both cars to be scoring points.
Tony.

[Tazio]

Alter ego or booze?
Are you an idiot, or just an antagonistic jerk burdened with a short attention span? N4D13 and I were discussing when we thought that Ferrari would race their B spec car. If you had read the article associated with that link you would see our ongoing conversation included the last two lines from that article which I quoted.
I'll let you slide this time, I understand that you lost your ability for logical thought (hopefully temporarily for your sake). ;)

[Bagwan]

Too much oil (olive oil, what else?) and too little machine.

One thing to notice , my friend , is that the heads aren't rolling .

Instead , they are blaming the machine , and working to fix it .

That's a change in attitude for the reds .
They are going the the ends of the earth(well , at least as far as Maranello) for Felipe , grabbing a new chassis from home .

[CavallinoRampante]

I think they went that far just to put Massa in a corner , unable to explain his 2 second gap to Alonso's race times, and than replace him for China if he screws this one up.

[CavallinoRampante]

Hopefully.

My hope instead is that Button crashes out and Hamilton breaks his gearbox

[SGWilko]

My hope instead is that Button crashes out and Hamilton breaks his gearbox

Hamilton breaks his own gearbox, or Button's, it's not clear from the costruction of your sentence, which is open to multiple interpretations!!

;)

[SGWilko]

Steering wheel
http://www.formula1.com/wi/sutton/2011/d12mal342.jpg

Presumably, the requirement for a co-pilot to operate all that 5h!t on the wheel is why the Ferrari is so slow?? ;)

[Bagwan]

I think they went that far just to put Massa in a corner , unable to explain his 2 second gap to Alonso's race times, and than replace him for China if he screws this one up.

That is one way to look at it .
And , it could be right .

With this move , they show faith in the driver , but also put severe pressure on to show it was a fault in the car .
I don't have a lot a faith that Felipe will be much closer in this chassis , but we will see .

[jens]

Are you an idiot, or just an antagonistic jerk burdened with a short attention span?

Both you and Ioan better watch your language. You may not agree with each other, but sentences like these do not improve your own arguments one bit! Hope you understand this very basic thing! :)

[Tazio]

I did give him a civil explanation in post #49, which anyone could easily understand, but he continued to fixate on the link as if I had given it an alias. You know he only comes on to Ferrari threads to do a little trolling. I corrected him once but in his zeal to offer more insults he ignored it. :)

[Tazio]

Another username change?! :eek:
But........are you familiar with the reference?

[Tazio]

I meant the literary reference. :wave:

[Tazio]

You said "wasn't", so now you're up to speed on one of the most highly acclaimed American short stories? ;)

[CavallinoRampante]

Hamilton breaks his own gearbox, or Button's, it's not clear from the costruction of your sentence, which is open to multiple interpretations!!

;)

Any interpretation would do... If Hamilton does bump into Button's car hard enough to break his (Button's) gearbox, it's hard enough for me. :cool:

I will try what I can to polish up my English posts from now on, as to not leave any doubts about interpretations. :dozey:

[ioan]

Are you an idiot, or just an antagonistic jerk burdened with a short attention span? N4D13 and I were discussing when we thought that Ferrari would race their B spec car. If you had read the article associated with that link you would see our ongoing conversation included the last two lines from that article which I quoted.
I'll let you slide this time, I understand that you lost your ability for logical thought (hopefully temporarily for your sake). ;)

Not worthy of an answer.
I'll let the mod answer your personal attacks as you deserve it.

[ioan]

Another username change?! :eek:

Just another of his alter egos.

[ioan]

I wasn't familiar no. I often wonder where posters have gone and then realise many months later they have had a different name all along. It gets mighty confusing.

They can change their names but not their habits. ;)

[airshifter]

Not worthy of an answer.
I'll let the mod answer your personal attacks as you deserve it.

If you read up you'll see that a moderator suggested you both calm down. Trying to bring a moderator into the picture and then following up with two posts aimed at attacking another forum member probably aren't doing much to promote you as being innocent in the matter. Just food for thought.

It really would be nice if for at least one season people could try to be civil and when needed just agree to disagree in an adult manner.

[pino]

Let's go back to the topic now thank you :)

[F1boat]

About the thread, Ferrari are 5th best team at best... Alonso is driving very well, but McLaren-Mercedes, Red Bull, Mercedes F1 and Lotus have better cars. This is horrible result for such radical car, maybe they should have played more carefully. F1 is no fantasy, you can't fix things with magic.

[Garry Walker]

About the thread, Ferrari are 5th best team at best... Alonso is driving very well, but McLaren-Mercedes, Red Bull, Mercedes F1 and Lotus have better cars.
Or maybe better drivers.

[N4D13]

About the thread, Ferrari are 5th best team at best... Alonso is driving very well, but McLaren-Mercedes, Red Bull, Mercedes F1 and Lotus have better cars. This is horrible result for such radical car, maybe they should have played more carefully. F1 is no fantasy, you can't fix things with magic.
I'm not so sure about that. Qualifying isn't the same as racing, and the Ferrari's main weakness is its lack of top speed, which affects them more in qualy, but not as much during the race. I am expecting Alonso to be somewhere near sixth tomorrow - and I hope that Massa will get at least a tenth place. But it will depend on how they manage their tyres, of course...

[F1boat]

Or maybe better drivers.

No, I don't think so. Alonso is no weaker than any of the top drivers and Massa is OK, once was very good. Of course the other teams also have very good drivers, but IMO the car is the problem.

[F1boat]

I'm not so sure about that. Qualifying isn't the same as racing, and the Ferrari's main weakness is its lack of top speed, which affects them more in qualy, but not as much during the race. I am expecting Alonso to be somewhere near sixth tomorrow - and I hope that Massa will get at least a tenth place. But it will depend on how they manage their tyres, of course...
P6 is possible, but won't be easily achieved. I expect the McLarens, the Bulls and Schumacher to finish in front of Fernando and then you have the Lotus cars, which will be tough to beat, Kimi especially.

[Garry Walker]

No, I don't think so. Alonso is no weaker than any of the top drivers and Massa is OK, once was very good. Of course the other teams also have very good drivers, but IMO the car is the problem.

If Kimi or Hamilton was in that Ferrari what would happen? They would get blamed for knowing nothing about car development, they would be attacked for lack of leadership. The things the uber-intelligent 6 tenths fans constantly praise him for. Now the cheating 6 tenths boy has spent 3 years in Ferrari with the car getting worse and worse and no titles. Is it because he knows nothing about how to develop a car? Lack of leadership?

[F1boat]

If Kimi or Hamilton was in that Ferrari what would happen? They would get blamed for knowing nothing about car development, they would be attacked for lack of leadership. The things the uber-intelligent 6 tenths fans constantly praise him for. Now the cheating 6 tenths boy has spent 3 years in Ferrari with the car getting worse and worse and no titles. Is it because he knows nothing about how to develop a car? Lack of leadership?

I think that for a team to succeed a good driver is not enough. My personal opinion is Alonso is doing his job very well, but the team has made many mistakes in recent years and the drivers have nothing to do with them. But if you think that Alonso is a bad driver, I can't help you. It seems that your point of view on drivers is highly biased. Consider this not as a personal attack, but as an observation. For example, I really dislike Lewis, but I think that he is one of the fastest drivers in the sport. When you are on this level, in F1, in a top team, fighting for wins, podiums and championships, you are bound to be a very elite driver.

[Garry Walker]

I think that for a team to succeed a good driver is not enough. My personal opinion is Alonso is doing his job very well, but the team has made many mistakes in recent years and the drivers have nothing to do with them. But if you think that Alonso is a bad driver, I can't help you. It seems that your point of view on drivers is highly biased. Consider this not as a personal attack, but as an observation. For example, I really dislike Lewis, but I think that he is one of the fastest drivers in the sport. When you are on this level, in F1, in a top team, fighting for wins, podiums and championships, you are bound to be a very elite driver.
I think Alonso is one of the best drivers in F1 (probably only Hamilton, Button, MS and Kimi are on a comparable level to him). But what I attacked was the stupidity of some of his fans in claiming he develops the car and leads the team - something Kimi and Hamilton are unable to do according to them. At least they yelled that for many years. So considering that, we should consider him a complete failure, right?

[F1boat]

He can develop the car in a why in which it suits him well enough to achieve better results than his teammate. This is an important skill, but it is impossible to compensate the lack of brain power in the Scuderia right now. The fact that Fernando can't do miracles was evident in 2009 with the struggling Renault. But I don't think that a driver can do this sort of magic - even Michael struggles with the Mercedes.

[N4D13]

He can develop the car in a why in which it suits him well enough to achieve better results than his teammate. This is an important skill, but it is impossible to compensate the lack of brain power in the Scuderia right now. The fact that Fernando can't do miracles was evident in 2009 with the struggling Renault. But I don't think that a driver can do this sort of magic - even Michael struggles with the Mercedes.
Of course, no one can do that kind of stuff. There are drivers who are supposed to provide great input of a car's behaviour to the engineers - Alonso is one of them, just like Schumacher, Barrichello and some other names I don't remember, but it's not like it would have a massive impact on performance. Well, or maybe it would - it could be worth 6 or 7 tenths. :p

Even if a driver could make that much of a difference in car development, that skill isn't worth as much as it was in the days of free testing. With testing so limited, it's very difficult that a driver could make a difference in car development, because no one has all the necessary track time to do that.

[Garry Walker]

Of course, no one can do that kind of stuff. There are drivers who are supposed to provide great input of a car's behaviour to the engineers - Alonso is one of them,

How do you know that?
Frank Williams said that the only driver who has brought any gain from testing based on his own feedback has been Wurz and even that gain was around 1 tenth. So drivers developing the cars is a fanboy dream that some silly fans try to promote

[jens]

But what I attacked was the stupidity of some of his fans in claiming he develops the car and leads the team

Why are such opinions even important for you? Especially if you personally don't value these views, then why do you constantly bring them back to discussion? F1 fans have been claiming all kinds of things throughout the years, better concentrate on the positive.

[Garry Walker]

Why are such opinions even important for you?
They aren't

Especially if you personally don't value these views, then why do you constantly bring them back to discussion? Only to ridicule said fanatics.

[F1boat]

Of course, no one can do that kind of stuff. There are drivers who are supposed to provide great input of a car's behaviour to the engineers - Alonso is one of them, just like Schumacher, Barrichello and some other names I don't remember, but it's not like it would have a massive impact on performance. Well, or maybe it would - it could be worth 6 or 7 tenths. :p

Even if a driver could make that much of a difference in car development, that skill isn't worth as much as it was in the days of free testing. With testing so limited, it's very difficult that a driver could make a difference in car development, because no one has all the necessary track time to do that.

Yes, I forgot about the limitied testing. Even if it was possible for a driver to influence the car developement that much, it isn't now.

[Garry Walker]

Yes, I forgot about the limitied testing. Even if it was possible for a driver to influence the car developement that much, it isn't now.

If drivers had so much effect on the car, then due to limited testing time available, shouldn't skillful test drivers be worth even more than before?

[pino]

... what I attacked was the stupidity of some of his fans in claiming he develops the car and leads the team - something Kimi and Hamilton are unable to do according to them. At least they yelled that for many years. So considering that, we should consider him a complete failure, right?

I don't see (and never saw) any Alonso fanatic fans in here, do you mind to tell me who are they?

[CavallinoRampante]

Hello guys, it seems that the RB has a lower trap speed compared to ferrari.
This confirms that both Ferrari and RB are running with a lot of wing incidence.
I think both teams will be able to fix downforce problems. If they can only recover some of the lost downforce with a better rear wing setup they'll be much faster overall.
A super-drs setup of their own would benefit them a LOT. Watch developments.

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/mal-qualifying-trap.pdf

[wedge]

Gary Anderson:


The Ferrari is not a good car, as everyone in F1 knows, but the damp conditions meant its weaknesses were not as exposed as they are in the dry because the forces through the car are not as great.

It backs up my theory that there is a problem with the front end of the Ferrari, that it cannot cope with lateral forces in corners because the front-tyre contact patch is moving around.

Ferrari introduced a new front wing in Malaysia, which Alonso tested in Friday practice before it was fitted to both cars for Saturday and Sunday

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/59292000/jpg/_59292981_59292980.jpg

It has more slot gaps in it, creating five sections rather than four on the outside parts of the wing.

Ferrari have been struggling with a lack of front-end grip in fast corners and this wing is an attempt to find more consistent front downforce and prevent the wing from 'stalling' as much.

Personally, I think the front-wing endplates are as much of a problem as anything for Ferrari.

Teams use these to deflect as much air as possible from the front wing outside the front tyres, and Ferrari's endplates are not anywhere near as aggressive as those of most other teams.

That means they are getting a bigger percentage of air going inside the front tyres, which is disturbing the crucial airflow under the car.

It suggests something is wrong with their modelling, and that they are not getting the right results from it.

The word in the paddock is that Ferrari are developing what will effectively be a new car for the Spanish Grand Prix in May - albeit built around the same chassis as the current one.

There is talk of new rear aerodynamics, a new exhaust position, and possibly replacing the unique pull-rod suspension with more conventional push-rod.

BBC Sport - Malaysian GP 2012: Gary Anderson’s technical review (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/17506004)

Mark Hughes, too, has buggered off to Sky.


Being normally a public road, the Albert Park track has plenty of bumps and one of the traits of a pull-rod suspension is that it's not great over bumps. To minimise its tendency to force the tyre to pull sharply sideways when encountering a bump during cornering load, it needs to be set up with negative camber (wheels pointing outwards at the bottom) so that the cornering pulls the wheel upright. That cures the pull-rod geometry's sensitivity to bumps but introduces a different problem - instability under braking because when travelling in a straight line the tyre does not have its full tread surface in contact with the track.

If the car is lacking in low speed downforce, then it's likely that in trying to increase its grip in these types of corners the car had a set up that made it nervous and imprecise under braking - hence those incidents. This will all have been exacerbated by the loss of rear low speed downforce resulting from this year's exhaust blowing restrictions.

Why the F2012 is braking down | Features & Experts | Sky Sports Formula 1 (http://www1.skysports.com/formula-1/news/22058/7611822/Why-the-F2012-is-braking-down)

[AndyL]

Mark Hughes, too, has buggered off to Sky.

"one of the traits of a pull-rod suspension is that it's not great over bumps."

Yes you can see how that would be a bit of a shortcoming for a suspension system can't you :)

[SGWilko]

"one of the traits of a pull-rod suspension is that it's not great over bumps."

Yes you can see how that would be a bit of a shortcoming for a suspension system can't you :)

A bit like designing a superyacht with a trick hull - only problem is it doesn't float very well...! Doh :facepalm:

[CavallinoRampante]

If Alonso can be n.1 in the points standings with a car that's worth 10th on the grid, I can't imagine what he will do with a car that can hang with the top 3.
3 weeks till China with lots of upgrades coming to the car... can't wait. Hopefully Alonso can keep the top spot till the Euro leg of the championship starts.

[SGWilko]

Don't get carried away!

RG & MS didn't finish in Oz, and NR went backwards while KR recovered from an own goat in qually. They can be regarded as in cars that are quicker than the Ferrari.

As we saw in Malaysia - a bit of rain and the right strategy, allied to all teams getting to grips with the new tyres leads to unexpected results.

It's safe to say that the McLarens, RB's and Loti are all quicker than the Sauber, and yet SP was in second.

Whilst there is no denying FA's racecraft, they have been fortunate thus far.

[jens]

Regarding Ferrari's new design I have to make one observation. Despite this new car being allegedly competely different from its predecessor, it seems they still share one strength. Both F150 and F2012 are really good on full tanks in the beginning of races. As we remember, last year Alonso led several races after a great start, but usually lost positions on the last stint after switching to harder tyres. This year Ferrari again has difficulties in the last stint, but this time it is not related to tyre compound.

[CavallinoRampante]

Regarding Ferrari's new design I have to make one observation. Despite this new car being allegedly competely different from its predecessor, it seems they still share one strength. Both F150 and F2012 are really good on full tanks in the beginning of races. As we remember, last year Alonso led several races after a great start, but usually lost positions on the last stint after switching to harder tyres. This year Ferrari again has difficulties in the last stint, but this time it is not related to tyre compound.

Good observation,
I reckon the problem in the last stint is due to fuel load. The car seems to be sliding around a lot when it's light, that chews up the tryres real quick!
The extra weight of the full tanks help Ferrari's traction problems, the car stays put, and shows a good pace.

It can be a number of things. I would not be surprised if there were a problem at the front with the new pull-rod suspension, maybe optimal stiffness with full tanks and too stiff with a light car... or something like that.
Fact is that Domanicali is saying the car has very good speed in fast long corners and poor performance on slow corners. That really makes me think it's a mechanical grip problem, what we call traction. When the aero load pushes the car down like in fast turns the traction is good, when aero has little effect the traction is very poor. I think they should go back to the shorter wheelbase of last year and try to balance the car better.
Right now they have it balanced in fast turns and it becomes unbalanced when the car becomes light. Could very well be a weight distribution problem or center of aerodinamic load related problem.
We know this year with the small wings and regular diffusers, the aerodynamic load is more forward compared to last year. If they were expecting more downforce at the back, they might not be able to counter that just by shifting ballast around.
Of course they need to first sort out the problem with the diffuser, so the mean aerodynamic load point will move further aft, and than they can play with ballast and/or wheelbase distance as needed. I expect the new chassis in Barcelona with several mods in this direction.

Maybe Alonso has been lucky besides being the best on the grid so far this year, but this will boost morale and inject the right amout of confidence to the theam. One thing is sure, luck is on our side this year, but it won't be enough to win the championship unless we give Alonso the car he deserves in order to win.

[F1boat]

I think that Ferrari is still a bad car, but I think that the team will be inspired to improve. I wouldn't write them off after this victory. They are not favorites to win - not by a long shot - but I wouldn't rule out a good fightback.

[Tazio]

It reminds me a lot of the problems Jordan had with their 1998 car before it was overhauled and won in Belgium.

If anything it looks like they depended on the blown diffuser system a lot more than Red Bull ever did, it just has absolutely no rear grip in braking and cornering and as a result, it drifts in braking causing the car to swerve towrds the centre of the road or the grass and when even a driver as good as Alonso exeriences that, you know you have some major problems

So maybe to cover for the blown diffuser ban, in promising an "Aggressive design" maybe they've gone too aggressive and its not a quick fix problem, it might force Ferrari to bring out a sort of B-Spec car sometime this season if they want to have any chance of being competitiveNow Ferrari is saying their is not going to be a "B"spec car.
Here is an interesting bit from one of the best, if not the best analyst’s, and is extremely highly regarded as his work has appeared in Autosport and other periodicals’:

every technical person I've questioned to reaffirm my understanding of the Pullrod-vs-pushrod says there's as good as no difference between them. Its true the loads in the upright and top wishbone are greater and these feed into the chassis. This is a well known by-product of pull-rod and won't have escaped Ferrari when designing this. motion ratio is the same, there's a great deal of misunderstanding in how the pullrod articulates. Although the horizontal pull-rod looks intuitively wrong (& I admit that was my initial assessment of the set up), Its not its angle to the chassis, but the angle to the adjoining wishbone. which is the same for push and pull rod.

With the car suffering under braking\traction, poor in slow turns but good in high speed turns, Suggests Ferraris problems are likely to be aerodynamic pitch sensitivity, causing the downforce balance to shift under braking and acceleration. Exhaust location and or front wing design is likely to a factor. But equally any angle or radius on any surface affecting the flow under the car, could be creating an unexpected vortex and upsetting the flow. Although I've heard whispers the FWEP dealing with the wider Pirellis may be a specific factor.

Perhaps where people are now getting confused, is that with pitch sensitivity you need to alter the cars set up to reduce the problems. such as more heave stiffness to minimise attitude changes, this in itself causes handling issues which may be what some observers are seeing as the root cause, and not a symptom.

Blog Update: More posts coming soon | Scarbsf1's Blog (http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2012/02/16/blog-update-more-posts-coming-soon/)

[wedge]

According to Autosprint Ferrari will copy Sauber & RBR's sidepod/exhaust downwash-effect set up


Diventerà una FERRAuber! - Formula 1 / Autosprint - Auto.it (http://www.auto.it/autosprint/formula_1/2012/04/03-10720/Diventerà+una+FERRAuber)!

Whatever may be the reason but a top company cannot launch its newly made model without testing at its most. It may have happened that due to poor aerodynamics any mishap would have occurred or sometimes the excess of speeding throttle near sharp turns makes the vehicle out of its way. Simple laws of Physics.

[Tazio]

Ferrari technical director Pat Fry has revealed that the team has managed to accelerate some of the ongoing development work on the F2012 in time to bring five new parts to the car for this weekend’s Chinese Grand Prix, the Englishman believing the team need to find eight tenths of a second to get on par with the fastest team on outright pace.
Ferrari ready to roll out updates amid bid to claw back (http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/04/ferrari-ready-to-roll-out-updates-amid-bid-to-claw-back-gap/)

I read elsewhere that it's rumored one of these parts will be what has been referred to as "the Byrne floor" made from "special" composites. I repeat this is only speculation.

Yes truly said i also love Ferraris's new design very much.

[Tazio]

James Allen says Ferrari has 6 major updates for Spain: including a new nose, front wing details, turning vanes, side pods, exhausts, rear wing and floor.

Here's a compilation of shots from FP1 & FP2

New turning vanes
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2012/d12esp762.jpg

New side pods
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2012/d12esp835.jpg

FWEP's
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2012/d12esp814.jpg

New Diffuser
http://www.formule1.nl/media/uploads/media_images/2012-05-11/racepictures_1336725073.46.jpg

RW
http://www.formula1.com/wi/0x0/sutton/2012/d12esp1069.jpg

I can't tell any difference with the nose, but it may be that the new nose is longer than before. I need an overhead shot to be sure though.

[N4D13]

Despite Alonso's charge to second place, we can't know whether Ferrari has made a significant step forward or if it's just the tyres benefitting Ferrari at Montmelo.

Anyway, let's hope that Ferrari's traction has improved - they're going to need a lot of it in Monaco.