RBR is illegal (apparantly)

[wedge]

Here we go again and the racing hasn't started.

Slotted rear wings are supposed to be banned but the naysayers say its light reflections on the rear wing.

http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/8923/slotrw.jpg

http://img2.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red-Bull-RB8-Test-2012-F-Schacht-fotoshowImage-e8472417-576839.jpg

http://img1.auto-motor-und-sport.de/Red-Bull-RB8-Test-2012-F-Schacht-fotoshowImage-d38c1c68-576837.jpg

[Jefe Máximo]

Could be reflections though... Looks like it to me.

Also, if they'd been doing something illegal, wouldn't it have been clearly caught during testing, with all the other teams around?

[AndyL]

That seems like the sort of thing that will be pretty obvious to the scrutineers, if they do in fact have an illegally positioned slot.

[gloomyDAY]

Non-issue. Now this, Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2012/0/938.html), is an issue.

Some teams' may have their priorities mixed up a bit.

[AndyL]

Non-issue. Now this, Formula 1 (http://www.formula1.com/news/technical/2012/0/938.html), is an issue.

Some teams' may have their priorities mixed up a bit.

Hmm, yes, and I don't think Red Bull are alone. Pretty much every team seems to have shaped their rear bodywork to still make some aero use of the exhaust, which I thought Charlie was intending to put a complete end to. I guess we'll see in a week or so.

[Valve Bounce]

Just read in Autosport - RBR's exhaust system could be illegal. Maybe their front wings will become contentious next week.

[gloomyDAY]

Just read in Autosport - RBR's exhaust system could be illegal. Maybe their front wings will become contentious next week.I think every team is just weary of Red Bull and their dominance.

A relative newcomer is destroying them on the track and it seems as if they're pulling at strings from time to time.

[wedge]

Could be reflections though... Looks like it to me.

Also, if they'd been doing something illegal, wouldn't it have been clearly caught during testing, with all the other teams around?

If they are reflections then why would the deeply respected tech journalist Giorgio Piola and his illustration doing the rounds. After all it was he who broke cover of Merc's blown front wing.

[Mia 01]

If they are reflections then why would the deeply respected tech journalist Giorgio Piola and his illustration doing the rounds. After all it was he who broke cover of Merc's blown front wing.

I f they are there it only take one look for a scrutiner to see them on place. Naah take another try to take down The Bulls.

[CNR]

'F-duct fever' returns to F1 in 2012 (http://sports.in.msn.com/formulaone/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5913627)
'F-duct fever' returns to F1 in 2012

Now, there are rumours Mercedes, McLaren as well as Red Bull and Lotus have designed new F-duct style systems -- also for the rear wing.

[Andrewmcm]

Every racing car is illegal. The scrutineers just haven't figured out why yet, and the engineers wouldn't be doing their job if their cars weren't pushing/over the edge.

[wedge]

Every racing car is illegal. The scrutineers just haven't figured out why yet, and the engineers wouldn't be doing their job if their cars weren't pushing/over the edge.

Nice one! In all my time of following motorsport I never really thought of it like that!

[ioan]

Funny how people see slots where there are no slots.
Also funny how it's fine for the exhaust to blow in a certain way and direction as long as it is Sauber or Mercedes or evenMcLaren but not for RBR.

One more week to go, and then we'll see who's been doing a good work and who's been only running their mouths.

[ioan]

Every racing car is illegal. The scrutineers just haven't figured out why yet, and the engineers wouldn't be doing their job if their cars weren't pushing/over the edge.

Exactly.

[CavallinoRampante]

It's quite simple how it works... the bottom element is clearly folded back, behind the wing.
This acts like a turbulator on airplane wings, and it's most effective at low speed, generating more downforce, separating the laminar flow of air.

At high speed, the pressure pushes against the turbulator and it flexes enough to change airfoil shape to a thinner shape, and that equals less air resistance.
Quite clever if you ask me, but hardly legal if it flexes too much.

The design should actually work even if no flex takes place, I can see where at high speed the laminar flow is pushed far back as to not use the full airfoil of the bottom element. That would also produce less air resistance.

[Knock-on]

Interesting post. You remind me of a former member but are much more erudite :laugh:

I think running a 3:1 aspect ratio is what RBR have done isn't it?

[CavallinoRampante]

Hi Knock-on, thank you for the "erudite" , I am just an engineer who has a hobby of designing competition model airplanes, a hobby I share with the good old Rory Byrne.
As far as aspect ratio, it would be nice to have the measurements, due to perspective on the pictures, I can't really measure the wing.
I can just see that Newey did an awsome job, that's really thinking out of the box, right there: simple, sturdy.... genial....
Now if this year the teams are still allowed to open up their rear wings on the straights, and if you find a picture from the rear of the new RB with the wing open, I'd understand a few more things. I'd like to see where the hinge-line is located, and the airfoil shape it forms when the slot is open.
The only wrong thing I see with it is that it's easily copied and implemented...

[CavallinoRampante]

about turbulators:

The additional drag, which arises from laminar separation bubbles, can be eliminated, by avoiding them or by reducing their size, using one of the following measures:


natural transition by shaping the airfoil geometry in such a way that the transition occurs already in front of the main pressure recovery region, where the bubble might occur, or by[/*:m:13ir3zz4]
forced transition by artificial disturbances, e.g. a turbulator. This device will usually be attached just before the region of laminar separation and has to introduce enough disturbances to cause transition into the turbulent state, before the laminar separation can occur.[/*:m:13ir3zz4]A small drag increase in the high speed regime is the cost which has to be paid for the bigger improvements at low "flight" speed.

If I were to do it, I'd play on the fact that you can open up the wing on the straigts, making the turbulator fold closed on the straights, so you'd have more downforce at low speeds without the drag penalty at high speed.
I bet that's how the RB wing works, but I haven't seen any pictures to prove or disprove that assumption.

[Zico]

about turbulators:

The additional drag, which arises from laminar separation bubbles, can be eliminated, by avoiding them or by reducing their size, using one of the following measures:


natural transition by shaping the airfoil geometry in such a way that the transition occurs already in front of the main pressure recovery region, where the bubble might occur, or by[/*:m:k82hus3a]
forced transition by artificial disturbances, e.g. a turbulator. This device will usually be attached just before the region of laminar separation and has to introduce enough disturbances to cause transition into the turbulent state, before the laminar separation can occur.[/*:m:k82hus3a]A small drag increase in the high speed regime is the cost which has to be paid for the bigger improvements at low "flight" speed.

If I were to do it, I'd play on the fact that you can open up the wing on the straigts, making the turbulator fold closed on the straights, so you'd have more downforce at low speeds without the drag penalty at high speed.
I bet that's how the RB wing works, but I haven't seen any pictures to prove or disprove that assumption.

Sounds absolutely spot on to me..

Fellow Aero student? Edit- just saw your earlier post. I'm into RC flying also and would love to know more about your competition planes but I guess its a bit off topic. ;)

[wedge]

This forum could do with an aerodynamicist to explain this concept a little deeper. :)

Or you could try a different forum ;)

(though half the time you feel like a feckless undergraduate!)

[ioan]

Glad to see a bit of technology making its way into here.
Many thanks for the detailed explanations.

[Knock-on]

Funny how people see slots where there are no slots.
Also funny how it's fine for the exhaust to blow in a certain way and direction as long as it is Sauber or Mercedes or evenMcLaren but not for RBR.

One more week to go, and then we'll see who's been doing a good work and who's been only running their mouths.

Well, we wont see the slots any more. Newey has surprised the field by releasing a last minute redesign that most closely emulates the Sauber.

I wonder if this will compromise the Bull slightly. Possibly they may need to use a fraction more rear wing which might have a slight negative impact on tyre degradation and top speed. Can't see it making more than a fraction of a percent difference though.

[ioan]

Well, we wont see the slots any more. Newey has surprised the field by releasing a last minute redesign that most closely emulates the Sauber.

I wonder if this will compromise the Bull slightly. Possibly they may need to use a fraction more rear wing which might have a slight negative impact on tyre degradation and top speed. Can't see it making more than a fraction of a percent difference though.

Actually more rear wing would improve tire life as the tire will slip less, and top speed has never been RedBull's strength, far from it.

[Knock-on]

Actually more rear wing would improve tire life as the tire will slip less, and top speed has never been RedBull's strength, far from it.

It seems to be with these new Pirelli tyres that the more you load them, the quicker they go off.

Ferrari struggled last year with getting heat into the rears and managed it this year but suddenly find them lasting less. More tyre load down the straight will heat them up and may prematurely wear them.

[Tazio]

This forum could do with an aerodynamicist to explain this concept a little deeper. :)
If you are interested in the technical aspect of F1 cars I think this is about the best source.
Scarbsf1's Blog | Everything technical in F1 (http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/)

[wedge]

It seems to be with these new Pirelli tyres that the more you load them, the quicker they go off.

Ferrari struggled last year with getting heat into the rears and managed it this year but suddenly find them lasting less. More tyre load down the straight will heat them up and may prematurely wear them.

It's not just tyre load. The bigger problem is how best to exploit the exhaust gases vs. heat which is one of Ferrari's (inter-connected?) problems.


Indeed. The Red Bull's strength has been mechanical grip through corners and acceleration out of the apex. McLaren have had the better top speed and usually fastest through the speed traps but as we know the Red Bull has had the speed where it counted.

RBR's biggest strength has been more from downforce than mechanical grip. Barcelona is probably the ultimate test of a car's aero-efficiency.