Rank the 2012 cars

[N4D13]

It's two weeks before the Oz GP, so I thought we could have a little competition to see which cars you think will be the fastest in Australia. It's always difficult to make predictions, but that's pretty much the point of this - we'll be able to look back on our predictions and find out whether we were right or not.

Anyway, here's my list. It's not meant to be about the fastest car on a single lap, but through an entire race distance.

1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Lotus
4. Ferrari
5. Mercedes
6. Toro Rosso
7. Sauber
8. Force India
9. Williams
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT

[Knock-on]

1. RB
2. McL
3. Merc
4. Ferr
5. Lot
6. TR
7. FI
8. Will
9. Sau
10. Cat
11. HRT
12. Errrrrrr

[SGWilko]

1. RB
2. McL
3. Merc
5. Ferr
=. Lot
6. TR
=. FI
8. Sau
9. Will
10. Cat
11. HRT
12. Mar

[wedge]

RBR & McLaren but RBR have the edge.

I think Merc will be quick over a single lap but it seems they have the same problem last year of tyres quickly degrading.

Not sure about Lotus. It's struggling a bit in proper stints and I think they've gone for some quick laps for PR purposes.

Not sure how much of a dog the Ferrari is.

Again, the fight for best of the rest will be incredibly tough.

[christophulus]

Over a race distance:

1. McLaren (it has to change one day!)
2. Red Bull
3. Ferrari (sandbagging, plus Alonso will drag something extra from it)
4. Mercedes
5. Force India
6. Williams (optimist shining through!)
7. Lotus
8. Sauber
9. Toro Rosso (inexperience may hurt them)
10. Caterham
11. HRT
12. Marussia

I awaiting being proven spectacularly wrong after the race!

[SGWilko]

plus Alonso will drag something extra from it

Oh yes, those famous 6/10ths....

[steveaki13]

The top two will be close, but I think

Mclaren
Red Bull
Mercedes
Ferrari
Lotus
Force India
Sauber
Williams
Toro Rosso
Caterham
Maurissa
HRT

I think the top 2 will be even.

And I think Ferrari, Mercedes & maybe Lotus will each have times they are better than the others

Not loing to wait before we find out

[Zico]

Complete guess..

1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Mercedes
4. Ferrari
5. Force India
6. Lotus
7. Williams
8. Caterham
9. Torro Rosso
10. Sauber
11.HRT
12.Maurissa

[jens]

Entire race distance? Which circuit shall we choose as a benchmark, because likely the competitiveness will fluctuate? :)

First - Red Bull/McLaren. If pushed, I'd put RBR ahead - I think they'll have more advantage in qualifying anyway.
It is tempting to put Mercedes, Lotus and Ferrari as joint third. Perhaps Mercedes has a tiny advantage, particularly in qualifying. But over a race it can disappear.
Force India is next. It depends on the form of Ferrari, but if the Reds are really struggling, they may be on the FI level.
Sauber can match FI in race trim, but will lose out in qualis, also STR could beat Sauber on Saturdays.
I think Toro Rosso will improve during the season especially with its two new drivers, who are starting to gain experience, while Sauber drops backwards after the loss of James Key. Pretty much like last year.
Williams is also close, but the competition for Top10 finishes is so tight that they will get only a handful of points.
In the second half of 2011 we could often see Kovalainen outracing someone from the established teams (Senna, a Williams, a Sauber). I think this pattern will continue this year. Caterham will still struggle to make it into Q2 on merit, but they'll be stronger in races.

[Garry Walker]

1) Red Bull - easily the fastest car again, hopefully by less than last year.
2) McLaren - Not as fast as RB, but has superior drivers.
3) Mercedes - Looks better than last year
4) Ferrari - Some problems, but Alonso is still a great driver
5) Lotus - Some problems in testing, hopefully Kimi will show his real level again
6) Force India - Hopefully Di Resta will destroy mr.hype
7) Toro Rosso - Better drivers than last year
8) Sauber -
9) Williams - Sadly, nothing will help that team.
10) Caterham
11-12 - I really dont care

[Dr. Krogshöj]

1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Mercedes
4. Lotus
5. Ferrari
6. Force India
7. Toro Rosso
8. Williams
9. Caterham
10. HRT
11. Marussia

[rjbetty]

6) Force India - Hopefully Di Resta will destroy mr.hype

Some thoughts:
I hope Nico Hulkenberg will put di Resta in HIS place. :p
I hope di Resta is as good as he himself seems to think he is though!
I'm trying to decide whether di Resta would have done what Hulkenberg did in Brazil 2010.
I don't know why everyone rated Nico quite so highly before he got to F1 anyway. Far too much was expected of him for 2010...

[jas123f1]

1) McLren 2) RBR 3) Lotus / Ferrari / Mercedes 6) Force India, Williams ....

[N4D13]

1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Mercedes
4. Lotus
5. Ferrari
6. Force India
7. Toro Rosso
8. Williams
9. Caterham
10. HRT
11. Marussia
It looks as though you don't care much about Sauber.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

It looks as though you don't care much about Sauber.

I knew there was a twelth team, I just forgot which it was. Oops.

[The Black Knight]

My gut instinct is that McLaren will be faster in qualifying but that RBR will do it over the race. This may be a strange thought based on last years domination by RBR but that's my impression from testing. I think the RBR looks after its tyres better but that McLaren will be quicker over a single lap. After that Mercedes, Lotus, Ferrari, Force India, Toro Rosso, Williams, Caterham, HRT and Marussia.

I wouldn't be surprised based on what I saw in the Barcelona test if Force India were ahead of Ferrari. That Ferrari looked like an awful car to drive altogether. While I do expect them to get on top of it, I doubt they'll manage it for the first 3 or 4 races.

[N4D13]

I knew there was a twelth team, I just forgot which it was. Oops.
So where would you rate it? ;)

[The Black Knight]

I meant to put Sauber behind Force India in mine. Oops!

[jens]

Poor Sauber, everyone forgets them... Even though they have arguably one of the most exciting racing drivers in Kobayashi.

[BMW_320_IRL]

1. Red Bull & McLaren - maybe i few 1/1000 sec advantage for mclaren (they have f-duct front & rear wing)
2. Mercedes (very innovative)
3. Lotus/Ferrari/Sauber
7. Toro Rosso
8. Force India
9. Williams
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT

[DazzlaF1]

Heres my ranking

=1. Red Bull & McLaren
3. Ferrari
4. Mercedes
5. Lotus
6. Force India
7. Sauber
=8. Toro Rosso, Williams & Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT

[CavallinoRampante]

I think it will be:

1.Ferrari
2.Mclaren
3.Redbull
4.Mercedes
5.Lotus
6... who cares?

[F1boat]

1 McLaren-Mercedes
2 Red Bull
3 Lotus
4 Mercedes
5 Ferrari
6 Force India
7 Sauber
8 Williams
9 STR
10 Catheram
11-12 don't care

[N4D13]

1. Red Bull
2. McLaren
3. Lotus
4. Ferrari
5. Mercedes
6. Toro Rosso
7. Sauber
8. Force India
9. Williams
10. Caterham
11. Marussia
12. HRT
It's a good time to review our picks, isn't it? McLaren is clearly in front of RBR, Toro Rosso is worse than I thought and Williams is way better than I expected. My crystal ball seems to have been a bit dusty, but I'm certain that others have been dustier! :p

[steveaki13]

Could also argue thus far Sauber are ahead of Mercedes at the moment.

[N4D13]

Could also argue thus far Sauber are ahead of Mercedes at the moment.
Fair point. To be fair, I don't think anybody would have expected Mercedes to lose that much performance during races, which is what has allowed Sauber to perform better than them. But, anyway, the thread was about predicting stuff and I think most of us have failed to predict that. ;)

[airshifter]

It's a good time to review our picks, isn't it? McLaren is clearly in front of RBR, Toro Rosso is worse than I thought and Williams is way better than I expected. My crystal ball seems to have been a bit dusty, but I'm certain that others have been dustier! :p

My ranking of cars this year is so far proven perfect..........

















.........only because I didn't try to rank them. :)

Its obvious that every brand wants to get its name topping the charts. However the thing is only possible if the racer and the car both support each other. Any-ways the list here is quite long but interesting, so I will go for Lotus, FI, McLaren, Mercedes, Sauber & RedBull.

[zako85]

Given the qualification performance, this is my subjective ranking:

1. McLaren
2. Lotus
3. RedBull and Mercedes


Yes. Lotus seems like the second fastest car on the track. Grosjean seems to have issues with bringing it home and Raikonnen had back luck with qualification/reliability so far.

[i_max2k2]

I still think, we haven't seen the true pace from all teams yet, RB and Mclaren are on top, and I believe Lotus and Mercs are similar, followed by Sauber, Ferrari, Williams, FI very close together, and STR.

supporthttp://www.camcorderdcr.com

[truefan72]

Given the qualification performance, this is my subjective ranking:

1. McLaren
2. Lotus
3. RedBull and Mercedes


I would say 1 & 2 are spot on
but 3 - RBR
4. Ferrari (only because Alonso can wrangle that car up the grid )
5. Sauber
6. Mercedes


Given the qualification performance, this is my subjective ranking:
Yes. Lotus seems like the second fastest car on the track. Grosjean seems to have issues with bringing it home and Raikonnen had back luck with qualification/reliability so far.
He seems to have issues bringing the car out of the first lap. And if you go back to his first stint in F1 a distrubing pattern emerges where he gets inot trouble no the first lap.
Spa & Valencia come to mind.

[F1boat]

My prediction wasn't that bad :)

[Malbec]

I would say 1 & 2 are spot on
but 3 - RBR
4. Ferrari (only because Alonso can wrangle that car up the grid )
5. Sauber
6. Mercedes

Whats great about this season is that there is so much variability depending on the conditions. I'd rank Mercedes as being 3rd or 4th quickest, sometimes even 2nd quickest in quali but over a race distance they struggle to beat Saubers.

Williams is one to look out for, during a full race they put in some stonking times. Its a shame the drivers and strategy haven't allowed them to make the most of the car though.

[truefan72]

Williams is one to look out for, during a full race they put in some stonking times. Its a shame the drivers and strategy haven't allowed them to make the most of the car though.

agreed :up:

[jens]

People are reluctant in rating Sauber very highly, but IMO it may well be a Top3 car in race trim currently, or tied with Lotus for that. Only McLaren and RBR are above in race trim or depending on circumstances (wet) not even that!

[Malbec]

People are reluctant in rating Sauber very highly, but IMO it may well be a Top3 car in race trim currently, or tied with Lotus for that. Only McLaren and RBR are above in race trim or depending on circumstances (wet) not even that!

I support Sauber but having followed their race pace closely even in race trim in Sepang I don't think they are in the top 3. RBR, McLaren and Lotus are IMO quicker and Williams is equal to Sauber at the very least.

Perez' pace shows the advantages of being on the correct tyre for the circumstance and being in free air. When the Williams or Lotus (with Kimi) were in similar situations they too showed shockingly quick pace in Sepang. Kobayashi's pace was destroyed by his problems with poor handling and fading brakes but when in free air he too was able to show impressive pace.

[zako85]

People are reluctant in rating Sauber very highly, but IMO it may well be a Top3 car in race trim currently, or tied with Lotus for that. Only McLaren and RBR are above in race trim or depending on circumstances (wet) not even that!

Sauber's race pace in Malaysia may also be attributed to the team expecting wet race, and many other teams not so much. In any case, we probably need more data to judge.

[i_max2k2]

Sauber's race pace in Malaysia may also be attributed to the team expecting wet race, and many other teams not so much. In any case, we probably need more data to judge.

Well we have 18 More races to learn that ;)

[BMW_320_IRL]

Yeah great season start. I hope the variation will continue.

That's really a nice post thanks for sharing it.

[steveaki13]

I still think that we haven't seen the true layout of a fully dry normal race, which we probably won't see this weekend, as there is often a chance of adverse weather here.

I would say Mclaren are top of the rankings and the Red Bull, Lotus, Ferrari, Sauber and Mercedes on race pace are way back.

[jens]

Sauber was struggling in qualifying sessions in the opening two races, but it looks like they have found some kind of a solution, so they are fast there now as well. I still think it is a top3 car. And who knows, they could even have the best race pace! Sounds incredible, but... ;) Nobody could catch Pérez in Malaysia, he was catching Alonso instead.

[ioan]

Malaysia can't be used as a yardstick for race pace, Alonso won it only due to circumstances, same for Perez 2nd place.
I think the European rounds will show who is what in terms of pace, unless we get plenty of wet races.

[EuroTroll]

Can we rank the cars also according to their looks? :)

I really wish Sauber did something about their livery. It's pig ugly. Apologies to pigs. ;)

[jens]

Malaysia can't be used as a yardstick for race pace, Alonso won it only due to circumstances, same for Perez 2nd place.
I think the European rounds will show who is what in terms of pace, unless we get plenty of wet races.

The problem with European rounds is that by then we will have upgrades and the performances would be different. Also Sauber will likely drop backwards during the season due to lack of funds for development. If Sauber is suddenly 10th at Barcelona, it doesn't say anything about flyaway races - it just tells they have dropped backwards. So we have to evaluate the situation right now and from whichever angle one tries to look at it, it is clear Sauber is exceptionally good. Even in Australia they were very fast, just stuck in traffic all race.

[ioan]

The problem with European rounds is that by then we will have upgrades and the performances would be different. Also Sauber will likely drop backwards during the season due to lack of funds for development. If Sauber is suddenly 10th at Barcelona, it doesn't say anything about flyaway races - it just tells they have dropped backwards. So we have to evaluate the situation right now and from whichever angle one tries to look at it, it is clear Sauber is exceptionally good. Even in Australia they were very fast, just stuck in traffic all race.

If Sauber is suddenly 10th in Barcelona it means that the flyaway races flattered their car. What else could explain such slump?
Then again they won't lose that much ground so early in the season.

[jens]

If Sauber is suddenly 10th in Barcelona it means that the flyaway races flattered their car. What else could explain such slump?
Then again they won't lose that much ground so early in the season.

I see nothing wrong in flyaway circuits suiting their car, even if that's the case. I know people sometimes like to repeat the mantra that "let's see, what is the pecking order on a normal race track", but in the end we have 20 GP's on the calendar and a good car has to perform well in all of them to collect points for WDC/WCC, not just on some selected "proper circuits", which wouldn't be enough. So every circuit is an evaluation of current situation in its own way. :)

[ioan]

Well if we go race by race we are more than lost when trying to come up with a performance based order.
Also anything less than 6 races is statistically irrelevant.

[jens]

Well if we go race by race we are more than lost when trying to come up with a performance based order.
Also anything less than 6 races is statistically irrelevant.

But if performance fluctuates from track-to-track, then how do you rank a specific car? To bring an extreme example - Toyota in 2009, who qualified on the front row in Bahrain, but at the back row in Monaco. And that was just in the space of two races.

[ioan]

But if performance fluctuates from track-to-track, then how do you rank a specific car? To bring an extreme example - Toyota in 2009, who qualified on the front row in Bahrain, but at the back row in Monaco. And that was just in the space of two races.

You wait to have at least 6 representative races (this means you eliminate the extreme results) and use basic statistics to get an idea.
At least this is how I see it trying to have an objective and cold POV. :)

[pino]

Mercedes
Sauber
Lotus
McLaren
Red Bull
Williams
Force India
Toro Rosso
Ferrari

[Ranger]

Can we rank the cars also according to their looks? :)

I really wish Sauber did something about their livery. It's pig ugly. Apologies to pigs. ;)

Agreed.

Now this is a black/white Sauber livery done properly:

http://www.f1passion.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Sauber-C12-Illmor.jpg

[steveaki13]

Sauber was struggling in qualifying sessions in the opening two races, but it looks like they have found some kind of a solution, so they are fast there now as well. I still think it is a top3 car. And who knows, they could even have the best race pace! Sounds incredible, but... ;) Nobody could catch Pérez in Malaysia, he was catching Alonso instead.

They have been very impressive this year

[ioan]

Agreed.

Now this is a black/white Sauber livery done properly:

http://www.f1passion.it/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Sauber-C12-Illmor.jpg

The beauty of those '90s cars!

[steveaki13]

Ah I do love the look of the 90s cars. Watching some older races the whole grid was so varied in shapes, sizes, engines and colours. Great stuff

[A Prost F1]

McLaren
Mercedes
RedBull
Lotus
Ferrari
Williams
Sauber
Force India
Torro Rosso
Marussia
Caterham
HRT

[ioan]

Another race that gives us no useful info about the pecking order.
McLaren are certainly most consistent, but that's all we can say about it.

[F1boat]

Maybe there is no pecking order, like in the 2nd half of 2009. Every race has its own order.

[steveaki13]

Maybe there is no pecking order, like in the 2nd half of 2009. Every race has its own order.

That would be interesting, it would keep every race and the championship on edge all season.

[F1boat]

That would be interesting, it would keep every race and the championship on edge all season.

Yes, it'd be great!

[steveaki13]

Thats whats great about F1.

One season varies so much from the next.

In Football if you win the league one year your team is more or less the same next season and so you should have a good shot at winning it again.

Where as in F1, no matter how good you were (i.e Red Bull last season), they can't get near a win at the moment.

Thats what is great about F1.

[jens]

In Football if you win the league one year your team is more or less the same next season and so you should have a good shot at winning it again.

Where as in F1, no matter how good you were (i.e Red Bull last season), they can't get near a win at the moment.


Depends, which football league you are talking about. :p : In France, Germany, Italy there can be many fluctuations. But for sure ManU, Real and Barca are almost guaranteed a Top2 spot in their domestic leagues looking at past seasons. Then again Red Bull Racing has been in Top2 for last three years and despite their struggles it looks like they will still be at least second in WCC this year. So not that much different if even in a bad year they can finish second. :)

[Malbec]

Another race that gives us no useful info about the pecking order.
McLaren are certainly most consistent, but that's all we can say about it.

Actually it gives quite a good idea, having been the first full length dry race on a track that provides a good aero work out.

The problem with judging car performance this season is that the tyres are playing a much bigger role, its harder for the drivers to get them in their operating window and keep them there. A Ferrari or Sauber with the tyres in their sweet spot can outperform a McLaren or Red Bull that isn't. This makes it pretty hard to rate the performance of the teams. As F1boat says every race seems to have its own order.

For a long time towards the end of the race 10 seconds covered P2 to P13. Unbelievable.

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