Is There a God? [Archive] - Page 2

tfp

12th March 2012, 23:59

I watched a geeky documentary on TV a while back, asking what made the universe, is it made up of a boat load of coincidences/was there a god that made it/somethint totally different etc.
In the beginning, before the Greeks started to discover astronomy, the Vikings used to blame some sort of "wolf god" or something when ever there was an eclipse of the sun. They thought this god would take away all of the sun light and the earth couldnt function without it. Apparently back then, the Vikings attempted to drive away this evil god in the only way they knew how....By drawing their swords and shouting at it...And what happens?? The sun suddenly comes back, and the Vikings pat themselves on the back, a job well done, they've scared this God away! Or so they thought.
Then someone discovered that it was actually simply the moon blocking the sunlight out momentarily, and there was actually no such thing as the wolf god.

Further down the time line, the romans I think thought a god created the sun. Now we know that the sun started the same way as all of the other stars in the universe.

More recently, Einstein discovers anti-matter, we have the Hubble telescope that can (in a sense) peer back in time, etc etc.

The point I'm trying to make is that for every thing that is unexplained (the big bang, for example) religious people just presume that a god must have caused it. And as we have learned more of the origins of our planet, the sun, solar system, etc etc the less we presume a god made everything.

We still have a lot to learn about our existence, and it seems the more we learn, the less we need to believe that a god created us.

It was a pretty good TV programme :)

EuroTroll

13th March 2012, 05:57

The point I'm trying to make is that for every thing that is unexplained (the big bang, for example) religious people just presume that a god must have caused it. And as we have learned more of the origins of our planet, the sun, solar system, etc etc the less we presume a god made everything.

We still have a lot to learn about our existence, and it seems the more we learn, the less we need to believe that a god created us.

Indeed. I believe it's called "God of the gaps" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps). Whatever we don't understand is attributed to God; all the gaps in our knowledge. And as we know more and more, God's domain gets smaller and smaller.

gadjo_dilo

13th March 2012, 07:30

Because we are born with gray matter between our ears? Some more some less, but yet it is there to use it.

I see, your opinion is that our grey matter is able to find reasons for everything. More or less scientific, more or less true.

Don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned I was also born with that part of spiritual substance called soul. This is immaterial and has its own "needs" . It's also there ( to be honest I don't know where ). Now can you tell me the reason why I have it and what I have to do with it?

I'm sure that using your gray matter you'll be able to enlighten me.

gadjo_dilo

13th March 2012, 08:14

So, after 244 posts, has anyone modified their opinions at all and why?

Non-believers (or realists as I like to call us) cannot understand why people are so gullible to believe there is some mystical, all seeing deity that invented Heaven, Earth and Hell. He can listen to each and every one of the 6 billion human beings prayers, thoughts, desires and judge each and everyone of us when we die to decide whether they are worthy to enter his kingdom or should spend the rest of eternity being tortured.

Then we have the believers who believe without doubt that the above is true and wont entertain any 'evidence' that contradicts their 'faith'.

Heaven and hell, good and bad, black and white, believers and non-believers. Both sides of the same coin that are no more likely to change sides as they are sexes.

Although I believe there's a God I'm not exactly the kind of believer you described above. I'm not bothered by issues like the true/false existance of Heaven/Hell, the evidence of them or the entrance in His kingdom. I don't take these terms mot-a mot. The unbelivers say that religions are founded on man's incapacity to explain phenomena. Maybe the sacred texts were also written with man's incapacity to explain what happens on a divine level.....

Don't know the purpose of this thread but definitely it wasn't a mean to change our opinions. It's hard for a believer to be convinced that man is but a poor rational and talking animal, coming from nowhere, going to nowhere - same thing for the genius and the idiot. He's rather interested in when, where and for what purpose the quality of "human" appeared.
But it's interesting these kind of threads always appear near Easter/Christmas. Wonder why.....

EuroTroll

13th March 2012, 08:26

Don't know the purpose of this thread but definitely it wasn't a mean to change our opinions. [...]
But it's interesting these kind of threads always appear near Easter/Christmas. Wonder why.....

The purpose of this thread was twofold:
1) I thought it would be interesting to survey our forumers' spiritual beliefs.
2) Just an interesting discussion topic. It's fun to argue. ;)

Nothing to do with Easter, though.

Oh, and I'm very glad we've been able to keep it civil so far. :up: I guess Knock-on will have to change his ways and become a believer... in our capacity to hold a good discussion.

Knock-on

13th March 2012, 10:07

Although I believe there's a God I'm not exactly the kind of believer you described above. I'm not bothered by issues like the true/false existence of Heaven/Hell, the evidence of them or the entrance in His kingdom. I don't take these terms mot-a mot. The unbelievers say that religions are founded on man's incapacity to explain phenomena. Maybe the sacred texts were also written with man's incapacity to explain what happens on a divine level.....

Just a little confused here mate.

you believe in a God but not a Religion? Is that correct?

If not, what religion do you believe in and why can you cherry pick what bits apply to you and what bits don't. I'm not trying to be flippant but really am struggling to understand this belief thing. I thought you were a believer or not.

:confused:

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 10:51

Don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned I was also born with that part of spiritual substance called soul. This is immaterial and has its own "needs" . It's also there ( to be honest I don't know where ). Now can you tell me the reason why I have it and what I have to do with it?

Soul is a very different thing to religious faith. One can have soul and not have religious faith. I do not consider it a spiritual thing.

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 10:52

Although I believe there's a God I'm not exactly the kind of believer you described above. I'm not bothered by issues like the true/false existance of Heaven/Hell, the evidence of them or the entrance in His kingdom. I don't take these terms mot-a mot. The unbelivers say that religions are founded on man's incapacity to explain phenomena. Maybe the sacred texts were also written with man's incapacity to explain what happens on a divine level.....

While I applaud your sense of individuality concerning your beliefs, I wonder from this why you consider yourself a believer at all.

gadjo_dilo

13th March 2012, 13:09

Just a little confused here mate.

you believe in a God but not a Religion? Is that correct?

If not, what religion do you believe in and why can you cherry pick what bits apply to you and what bits don't. I'm not trying to be flippant but really am struggling to understand this belief thing. I thought you were a believer or not.

:confused:

I'm an orthodox christian like most people in Eastern Europe. That's why I said before it's interesting to know the country/rite of those who believe in God ( already noticed 2 other guys who live in the same part of the world and they must be orthodox too ).

I'm very comfortable with my religion because I don't feel any constraint from my church and I can't find anything wrong in its teachings. The way I perceive the relationship with my religion is something like this:
It doesn't offer prescriptions but directions to follow. You're offered a steady landmark and you're free to go to it on your own way. You have a model and a liturgical support.

I don't pray anymore and don't go to church ( except for weddings, funerals, commemorations and for Easter night ), you'll never find me on the queue to saints' relics. Not because I've lost interest in my faith but cos a sort of convenience due to my stressful life.
I haven't read the bible, it was a forbiden book when I was very young. Maybe that's the reason I don't ask many questions about its episodes. The religious side of my life is limited to respecting the tradition. In fact the orthodox calendar is a long chain of saints/events celebrations, many of them associated with rites of pagan origin. I love these traditions although if you ask me I can't find the reason to follow them ( I'm not even interested to find one ). Could be a result of my education. I was taught to avoid doing choir work on certain holy days, to fast before Christmas or Easter, to dye eggs on Easter, I take willow branches on the sunday of flowers, I take holy water on 6 January, on 9 March I do a traditional dish( but never been able to drink the 40 glasses of an alchoholic drink:laugh :) , I don't wash my hair on the day of Christ's baptizing, etc.. And I admit that when I was very young I even did witchcrafts on St Andrew and on Christ's baptizing. Of course sometimes I'm not able to do these but I don't feel guilty at all. And neither my church would throw a damnation over my head. When I do such things I do them because I feel it's right not because a place in Heaven would be reserved for me.
I know you can't understand this. I don't feel I have much things in common with people around me except for having same traditions.

I'm sure that if I was born in a country of protestant christian rite I would have become an atheist. The preachers always seem to threaten people and I can't find anything magic in their church.
To be honest whenever I go to an orthodox church I propose to be attentive at what the priest is saying. But the surmon is a long chain of incantations and I can't concentrate on priest's words. What is weird is that always I remember the same passages from the surmon like someone is waking me up at that moment .

As a teenager I used to be the mystical type. Due to the communist regime, any possibility to get information about horoscopes, reincarnation, life after death, communication with dead people, etc. was nule. I still have interest in such things although my religion denies them. And I reckon I used to be quite a good fortune teller. :laugh:

gadjo_dilo

13th March 2012, 13:23

Soul is a very different thing to religious faith. One can have soul and not have religious faith. I do not consider it a spiritual thing.

I do. Anyway, my point was opposed to Ioan's opinion that everything has a reason because people have the grey matter .

At this point I have to admit that my grey matter consists of one single neuron. And I'm afraid even this one is sick. :laugh:

gadjo_dilo

13th March 2012, 13:29

While I applaud your sense of individuality concerning your beliefs, I wonder from this why you consider yourself a believer at all.

Can't explain this, it's more of a feeling. Maybe because I look around and I see only imperfect human beings while the Universe is lead by perfect laws.:laughs:

Rudy Tamasz

13th March 2012, 13:55

And does it work?

For me, yes.

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 14:15

Can't explain this, it's more of a feeling. Maybe because I look around and I see only imperfect human beings while the Universe is lead by perfect laws.:laughs:

Fair enough! But do you not also consider that some of those imperfect human beings are themselves believers?

ioan

13th March 2012, 19:17

I see, your opinion is that our grey matter is able to find reasons for everything. More or less scientific, more or less true.

Don't know about you but as far as I'm concerned I was also born with that part of spiritual substance called soul. This is immaterial and has its own "needs" . It's also there ( to be honest I don't know where ). Now can you tell me the reason why I have it and what I have to do with it?

I'm sure that using your gray matter you'll be able to enlighten me.

You got me wrong there. The grey matter is not able to find reasons for everything, it is there for reasoning.

My 'soul' has also it needs, it needs knowledge, lots of it, and it needs to be productive. It thrives on and it derives pleasure from coming up with ideas, from solving problems, from creating something out of knowledge.

I hope I answered your question.

ioan

13th March 2012, 19:20

I'm an orthodox christian like most people in Eastern Europe.

Only if you include Russia as part of Eastern Europe.

ioan

13th March 2012, 19:22

For me, yes.

At least we settled this one.

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 19:48

You got me wrong there. The grey matter is not able to find reasons for everything, it is there for reasoning.

My 'soul' has also it needs, it needs knowledge, lots of it, and it needs to be productive. It thrives on and it derives pleasure from coming up with ideas, from solving problems, from creating something out of knowledge.

I hope I answered your question.

Very good, ioan.

race aficionado

13th March 2012, 20:32

How do you guys interpret "the soul"?

Is this a religious only concept?

Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 20:47

How do you guys interpret "the soul"?

Is this a religious only concept?

Definitely not.

race aficionado

13th March 2012, 21:04

What is "the soul" then?
** you beat me to it Studiose . . . I was trying to follow BDunnell's post.

Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)

EuroTroll

13th March 2012, 21:04

How do you guys interpret "the soul"?

Is this a religious only concept?

That's a good question, race.

When I think of the word "soul", I think of the word "immortal". It's the essence of man that is independent of his body and mind. To me, the term associates with religion and belief in the creator and the afterlife. The thing is, I don't believe anything about me to be immortal, I think I was created by my parents, and I don't believe in the afterlife. So it follows that I don't believe I have a soul. I have body and mind, but nothing else.

In short, I think there's no such thing.

BDunnell

13th March 2012, 21:11

That's a good question, race.

When I think of the word "soul", I think of the word "immortal". It's the essence of man that is independent of his body and mind. To me, the term associates with religion and belief in the creator and the afterlife. The thing is, I don't believe anything about me to be immortal, I think I was created by my parents, and I don't believe in the afterlife. So it follows that I don't believe I have a soul. I have body and mind, but nothing else.

In short, I think there's no such thing.

Interesting. I just view soul as a non-religious word, so for me it has no connotations that prevent me from thinking that people have one. That said, to me it is an extremely nebulous concept — I would describe someone as being 'soulless' without giving a moment's thought to it, yet could just as easily substitute another term.

race aficionado

13th March 2012, 22:40

It makes sense that "the soul" can mean something different to different people. Epistemology in action.

Sent from my iPhone as I watch the UEFA cup. :)

donKey jote

13th March 2012, 23:42

"human being" = "body" (material) + "soul" (immaterial).
the soul isn't put there by some god or holy spirit but is simply the image of your "self", generated by your functioning brain.
body without soul = vegetable

that's how donkeys work anyway :)

Rollo

14th March 2012, 00:02

Given that we're not entirely sure of what things like gravity or mass actually are, describing the soul might be something equally as difficult to empirically prove.

I just find that explanation/argument inadequate. It simply doesn't answer the question of where that 'being' got its morality from.

I don't think that we have the ability to even perceive anymore than about 5 dimensions. Certainly in my experience, time is a linear thing that only appears to flow in one direction and as time-travel isn't yet a reality, I don't know if we've managed to fold space-time through the sixth dimension yet.
"Where" a being would get its morality from would be a very strange question to even consider in say the tenth dimension which would encompass all infinities and all possibilities. I'm not surprised that Mr Brown found the explanation/argument inadequate and to be totally frank I can't provide an adequate explanation/argument either if it's going to preside in the tenth dimension which is beyond the limits of our perception anyway.

What if mass, energy, gravity, or even the soul/spirit etc. is bound in a model parallel to the ten dimension model of space-time? Again I don't know how you'd empirically prove such a statement if it presides in a similar tenth dimension.

gadjo_dilo

14th March 2012, 06:37

Only if you include Russia as part of Eastern Europe.

To my knowledge the countries with orthodox majority are Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Moldova, Serbia, Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Montenegro, Macedonia, Georgia.

I think people have different criteria to see the continent. I don't divide it only in north-south, eastern-western. I take also into account the central part. Which is mostly catholic.

gadjo_dilo

14th March 2012, 07:50

You got me wrong there. The grey matter is not able to find reasons for everything, it is there for reasoning.

Excuse me but it's early in the morning and I'm not in the mood for reasoning. I asked "Why should be a reason for everything?" and you amswered "Because we are born with gray matter between our ears? Some more some less, but yet it is there to use it. ". Then I mentioned the element "soul" because I reckon sometimes I tend to reason with my "heart"-if you know what I mean. If I got you wrong then so be it.

My 'soul' has also it needs, it needs knowledge, lots of it, and it needs to be productive. It thrives on and it derives pleasure from coming up with ideas, from solving problems, from creating something out of knowledge.

Never thought your body hides the soul of a president of a multinational corporation.
Just kidding. :laugh:

Now seriously: obviously you can't ever become religious as your soul is tight only to the material and physical world and your principles are too material. I'd rather think that for your needs rationality is enough. I understand your soul is thirsty of knowledge but what happens with the feelings? More knowledge will help you to become a better man? And I'm afraid that following your soul desires you might be able to find what happen in the entire Universe or if life exists on Sirius but you'll never know the cause of life, why and for what purpose we exist. Something like:
Who are we?
Where do we come from?
Where are we going to?

I hope I answered your question.

Yes. Thank you. But could you satisfy another of my (sick) curiosity?
Were you raised in greek-catholic or protestant surroundings?

gadjo_dilo

14th March 2012, 08:21

According to romanian explanatory dictionary "soul" has loads of meanings. From the point of view of idealistic philosophy and as a religious concept soul is defined as spiritual substance that give life to humans, has divine origin and eternal essence.

Another sense is that of "kindness, mercy, humaneness" which explains the "soulless" thing.

In romanian we also use the word "spirit" to describe the ideal factor of existance, opposed to matter.

Brown, Jon Brow

14th March 2012, 09:29

Given that we're not entirely sure of what things like gravity or mass actually are, describing the soul might be something equally as difficult to empirically prove.

I don't think that we have the ability to even perceive anymore than about 5 dimensions. Certainly in my experience, time is a linear thing that only appears to flow in one direction and as time-travel isn't yet a reality, I don't know if we've managed to fold space-time through the sixth dimension yet.
"Where" a being would get its morality from would be a very strange question to even consider in say the tenth dimension which would encompass all infinities and all possibilities. I'm not surprised that Mr Brown found the explanation/argument inadequate and to be totally frank I can't provide an adequate explanation/argument either if it's going to preside in the tenth dimension which is beyond the limits of our perception anyway.

What if mass, energy, gravity, or even the soul/spirit etc. is bound in a model parallel to the ten dimension model of space-time? Again I don't know how you'd empirically prove such a statement if it presides in a similar tenth dimension.

You don't have to go into the tenth dimension to make extraordinary claims. Have you not heard about the china teapot full of steaming hot morality that is in orbit between the Earth and Mars? It's too small to be seen or detected by any telescope, but it's there!

Knock-on

14th March 2012, 10:25

Thanks to Gadjo_dilo for his explanation of what his religion means to him. I suspect this is quite an accurate understanding for many 'Cristian's' and quite a few people that consider themselves non-religious.

First of all, for the sake of argument, lets put all the fire and brimstone, God and hell stuff behind us for a second. Matey sitting up there with Christ on one side and St Peter on the Pearly Gates is pretty outdated as is believing that every word in the bible is sacrosanct.

What do we have left?

Some good social gatherings and a written list of basic moral principles and lessons passed down through the ages. God didn't give us morality, man did. The bible is a way of handing these down from generation to generation.

And the social gatherings? Yuletyde - Christmas. Pagan or Christian matters not. It is a mid winder festival around the Winter Solstice that brings people together over the bitter months. Eoster or Easter. The pagan giving of eggs celebrating the birth (spring) is a great Christian tradition still followed. All hallows eve is another pagan festival where the children of the poor were given gifts of food from the better off for their family to get through the tough winter. Just happens to be similar to Harvest festival and the giving thanks coincides with All Saints Day.

It doesn't matter is you are Christian, Pagan or a complete agnostic, observing these community traditions helps communities establish identity and maintain health.

Mix these in with God(s) and you have a focal point. Something to work toward. Doesn't have to be real but it's a goal to work toward. If it floats your boat then fine but best to get over all the religion yes/no stuff and enjoy the traditions.

Rudy Tamasz

14th March 2012, 13:20

Eki, you have issues mate. Serious issues.

Just a special sense of humor.

ioan

14th March 2012, 19:33

Now seriously: obviously you can't ever become religious as your soul is tight only to the material and physical world and your principles are too material. I'd rather think that for your needs rationality is enough. I understand your soul is thirsty of knowledge but what happens with the feelings? More knowledge will help you to become a better man? And I'm afraid that following your soul desires you might be able to find what happen in the entire Universe or if life exists on Sirius but you'll never know the cause of life, why and for what purpose we exist.

I prefer to call myself a realist, and I do have principles and feelings first of all, the material part is next to these.
Creating something is not only about objects is also about ideas.

As for the purpose of our existence: depends on each of us. Mine is to work my grey matter.

Something like:
Who are we?
Where do we come from?
Where are we going to?

Let's call it evolution.

Yes. Thank you. But could you satisfy another of my (sick) curiosity?
Were you raised in greek-catholic or protestant surroundings?

Nope. Mother catholic, father orthodox, none of them are thorough believers, and none of them ever tried to educate any of their kids to believe in a god. Great parents.
I grew up with Jules Verne's books followed by the Physics, Maths and Chemistry books to become an engineer who firmly believes in knowledge.

ioan

14th March 2012, 19:35

Hawkmoon

15th March 2012, 02:12

Personally, I'm entirely comfortable with the idea that human existence is finite. We are born, live and die. Before birth we don't exist. After death we cease to exist. I don't believe in an afterlife or an everlasting soul. I don't need the threat of my eternal soul being turned into Mr Crispy to behave properly. Nor do I believe that human emotions such as love, happiness, kindness and compassion are tied to some indefinable, nebulous 'thing'. Good people are good, bad people aren't. A 'soul' has nothing to do with it.

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 07:23

Good people are good, bad people aren't. A 'soul' has nothing to do with it.

But why the good ones may become bad ones and viceversa?
And what authority we have to label us as good or bad?
Are we just good or bad? Aren't there any other "nuances"?

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 07:37

I guess one day they will finally add other meanings to this word in the Romanian dictionary, we just need to have the free minded generations come of age.

If I translate " free mind " into romanian, I'll get " minte libera ". This syntagm, from the material point of view, could signify a lack of the grey matter. And unfortunately I reckon it already fits most of our young brainwashed generations. :laugh:

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 08:45

I prefer to call myself a realist, and I do have principles and feelings first of all, the material part is next to these.
Creating something is not only about objects is also about ideas.

Reality is unique but its perception is different. What if your vision isn't correct? What if your senses aren't enough to perceive the real thing?

As for the purpose of our existence: depends on each of us. Mine is to work my grey matter..

I see. Like Hercule Poirot who exercised his little grey cells.....

Let's call it evolution...

Evolution...Once again I see it only on a material level. We're probably the best fed and prosperous generation in history and we enjoy a freedom to travel everywhere around the world.
Otherwise we are the most faint-hearted and dependant on comfort and consumption. We're less autonomous in our judgements, more servile and gregarious.
etc. etc.

I grew up with Jules Verne's books followed by the Physics, Maths and Chemistry books to become an engineer who firmly believes in knowledge.

I guess now you're already a good engineer but I hope your literary interest didn't stop at Jules Verne. Especially when our national literature may offer you books by Emil Cioran, Mircea Eliade, Ioan Petru Culianu, Petre Tutea, Nicolae Steinhardt.

Hawkmoon

15th March 2012, 09:35

But why the good ones may become bad ones and viceversa?
And what authority we have to label us as good or bad?
Are we just good or bad? Aren't there any other "nuances"?

People change for a multitude of reasons. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Good and bad are defined by society. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Of course there are degrees of both. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?

BDunnell

15th March 2012, 09:36

Evolution...Once again I see it only on a material level. We're probably the best fed and prosperous generation in history and we enjoy a freedom to travel everywhere around the world.
Otherwise we are the most faint-hearted and dependant on comfort and consumption. We're less autonomous in our judgements, more servile and gregarious.
etc. etc.

So you don't see any evolution in the fields of scientific knowledge?

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 10:07

So you don't see any evolution in the fields of scientific knowledge?

Science evolved, man didn't.

BDunnell

15th March 2012, 10:29

Science evolved, man didn't.

I find this a very depressing view — and what does it say about religion that man hasn't apparently evolved? I disagree with your viewpoint. Do you not consider, for example, that the way in which practices such as slavery came to become unacceptable demonstrates that man has in some way evolved? And how can you consider that science, a 'man-made' activity, has evolved while man has not? Surely you cannot separate the two. I would argue that the very fact of man being able to push scientific knowledge forward and being able to understand such complex subjects demonstrates evolution. And in the most basic terms, the human species is well known to have evolved.

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 11:16

People change for a multitude of reasons. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Good and bad are defined by society. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?
Of course there are degrees of both. What has that got to do with the supposed existence of a 'soul'?

Let's simply say that in my opinion the soul is reflected in our behaviour and actions.

gadjo_dilo

15th March 2012, 12:21

I find this a very depressing view — and what does it say about religion that man hasn't apparently evolved? I disagree with your viewpoint. Do you not consider, for example, that the way in which practices such as slavery came to become unacceptable demonstrates that man has in some way evolved? And how can you consider that science, a 'man-made' activity, has evolved while man has not? Surely you cannot separate the two. I would argue that the very fact of man being able to push scientific knowledge forward and being able to understand such complex subjects demonstrates evolution. And in the most basic terms, the human species is well known to have evolved.

You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

ioan

15th March 2012, 16:50

If I translate " free mind " into romanian, I'll get " minte libera ". This syntagm, from the material point of view, could signify a lack of the grey matter. And unfortunately I reckon it already fits most of our young brainwashed generations. :laugh:

You'll find it hard to believe but these free minded young generations are the future of the country, in any country, not the old brainwashed communists.

ioan

15th March 2012, 16:52

Science evolved, man didn't.

I guess you arrived to this conclusion based on an analysis of yourself.

BDunnell

15th March 2012, 16:55

You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

I still see a lot of contradictions here. You criticise the rise of barbarism, yet what we see today are merely different forms of barbarism, not more of it. And what did the early humans have if not conservation instincts? How else would they have survived?

ioan

15th March 2012, 17:02

You get me wrong. I admit man's life conditions have improved, his life is longer and healthier. But these couldn't make him less selfish, greedy, violent, self-sufficient. Reflection is more and more replaced by barbarian sensibility and instinct of conservation. Maybe slavery was abolished ( ironically, at my work our daily complaint is that we're treated like slaves on plantation ) but I have the feeling that today we are transformed in some organisms convicted to live a mechanical life.
I could continue but I think I've already got another stigma: gadjo is a misanthropist.

I think that your views are based on the sore reality that is that of the Romanian society of the last 15 - 20 years.
However with time things will change into better and you'll understand our position towards evolution.

gadjo_dilo

16th March 2012, 10:27

I guess you arrived to this conclusion based on an analysis of yourself.

Just when I was about to forget how "sweet" you may be sometimes.... :laugh:

I'm not offended. On the contrary, looks like I "evolved" to the stage that I take your usual pricks as simple acts of a young hothead.

Rudy Tamasz

16th March 2012, 13:58

However with time things will change into better

Oh wow, it's been a while since I saw an East European this optimistic. ;)

Lavinia

21st March 2012, 01:32

Soul of Guardian (http://www.dotmmo.com/soul-of-guardian-7723.html)
Anime Trumps (http://www.dotmmo.com/anime-trumps-7657.html)
Onimusha Soul (http://www.dotmmo.com/onimusha-soul-7405.html)
Universal Monsters Online (http://www.dotmmo.com/universal-monsters-online-7187.html)
Dragon Born (http://www.dotmmo.com/dragon-born-6979.html)

iva.rpm

18th May 2012, 23:12

Totally agree with you. There are many dogs :D .

Nobody has ever proven me that there's one or more gods. So, I'll keep on being an atheist.

Storm

22nd May 2012, 11:46

Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw that atheists outnumbered believers on a poll
(I know small sample but still)
Thats the first time it has happened to me that I am in a group where I am not the blackest of black sheep. (I wouldnt really mind if there was a God/Entity, but only that he would be sensible enough to show himself once and for all so as to abolish the ridiculous concept of religion)

ioan

25th May 2012, 21:33

markabilly

26th May 2012, 16:20

Hey, I do not know, but everyday, I pray there is no hell.

Then the old lady says, where do you think you are, if you ain't there already.................I just tell her every since I went blind, I forgot what you looked like...........

race aficionado

26th May 2012, 18:46

Gesundheit!

gadjo_dilo

28th May 2012, 09:05

Just an example of how religion is turning people into idiots

Indonesia says 'No' to Gaga | Photo Gallery - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/photos/philippine-christians-protest-against-gaga-slideshow/members-christian-group-shout-slogans-during-stop-lady-photo-074101046.html)

I am no way a Lady Gaga fan, but I couldn't give a damn about all her concerts, so why are these people so bothered about a concert that they are not forced to attend to?!

There is always someone to protest against things they aren't forced to do or attend ( see those topless ukrainian girls ). You see only the religious fanatics - mind you, not every religious person is necessarily so radical .

BTW I'm a Gaga fan ( how else could be a dilo ? :laugh :)

ioan

28th May 2012, 10:01

There is always someone to protest against things they aren't forced to do or attend ( see those topless ukrainian girls ). You see only the religious fanatics - mind you, not every religious person is necessarily so radical .

Just question a bit the truth of their religion and most of them will react in a radical way, this thread is proof enough for it.

gadjo_dilo

28th May 2012, 10:20

Ioan,

1. Are you sure you aren't also radical in judging other opinions?

2. Do you think I'm the "habotnic" ( how can we translate this? ) type?

ioan

28th May 2012, 10:26

Ioan,

1. Are you sure you aren't also radical in judging other opinions?

Who knows? I'm certainly not the most objective in judging myself.

2. Do you think I'm the "habotnic" ( how can we translate this? ) type?

Can't say for sure. I think that you're unsure about what exactly you are.

ioan

28th May 2012, 10:27

And the Catholic Church might disintegrate due to internal struggles for power one of these days:

Vatican faces widening of leaks scandal - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/vatican-faces-widening-leaks-scandal-062640213.html)

F1boat

28th May 2012, 10:49

Whatever you believe, I do think that you must be tolerant of the other opinions. I say that because I notice a worrying trend - religious people are getting more fanatical, churchmen more judgmental, but atheist too are going on the attack and always bash religion. I hope that this won't end in tears.

gadjo_dilo

28th May 2012, 10:49

Can't say for sure. I think that you're unsure about what exactly you are.

I'm not what I seem to be
Nu Sunt Ce Par A Fi - Ion Minulescu (http://www.versuri-si-creatii.ro/poezii/m/ion-minulescu-9zudtpt/nu-sunt-ce-par-a-fi-6zuchtu.html)

(Lovely lyrics)

donKey jote

28th May 2012, 11:37

Whatever you believe, I do think that you must be tolerant of the other opinions.

Not always. There is a limit to tolerance. The problem is setting the limit.

Brown, Jon Brow

28th May 2012, 16:17

To be truly tolerant you have to tolerate the intolerant.

ioan

28th May 2012, 16:31

Not always. There is a limit to tolerance. The problem is setting the limit.

Exactly, some attitudes should not be tolerated.

donKey jote

28th May 2012, 16:53

To be truly tolerant you have to tolerate the intolerant.

To be truly tolerant is certainly not one of my goals, if that means having to tolerate absolutely everything or anything, just for the sake of being able to call myself truly tolerant.

airshifter

28th May 2012, 17:12

Just question a bit the truth of their religion and most of them will react in a radical way, this thread is proof enough for it.

Reading the thread I find quite the opposite. Those without religion seem much less tolerant of any opinion that doesn't fit what their personal view is.

F1boat

30th May 2012, 16:48

Not always. There is a limit to tolerance. The problem is setting the limit.

Probably you are right, but don't be surprised that the other side may respond with intolerance, if you are intolerant. For example, when atheists actively ridicule the beliefs of people, why they are surprised when religious cuckoos claim that their freedom is threatened?

donKey jote

30th May 2012, 21:35

There is always a limit, the problem is finding a limit everyone in a particular society agrees on.
Take the forums here, for example... I'm sure we're all pretty intolerant towards things like religion induced terrorism or genocide.
However I doubt we can all ever agree on "Thou shall not kill", be it in one direction (capital punishment) or the other (abortion), or on whether the word marriage can be used for non-heterosexual civil unions, or on stem cell research, just to name a few of the many other contentious topics...

Brown, Jon Brow

30th May 2012, 21:53

@donks - Why not intolerance to genital mutilation of infants? :p

Brown, Jon Brow

30th May 2012, 22:00

One thing I would like to add is that being critical of something isn't the same as being intolerant. One must not forget that until relatively recently if one dared criticise religion they would end up being burned at the stake.

donKey jote

30th May 2012, 22:03

@donks - Why not intolerance to genital mutilation of infants? :p

agreed.
And lactose intolerance.

gadjo_dilo

31st May 2012, 07:20

One must not forget that until relatively recently if one dared criticise religion they would end up being burned at the stake.

This explains why I don't have issues with my religion. Because such punishments never occured.

ioan

1st June 2012, 21:00

Orthodox priests had their way also to punish people, even in recent times.
No mater which religion they have none of them are angels.

gadjo_dilo

5th June 2012, 07:25

Orthodox priests had their way also to punish people, even in recent times.

Such as....?

No mater which religion they have none of them are angels.

Of course not. They're still humans.

F1boat

7th June 2012, 14:26

janvanvurpa

7th June 2012, 17:22

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

They killed the priests because the Commies were atheists?

Or because the Church was and is an integral part of the capitalists system and a major part ---with their pretty stories about obedience to authority and a wonderful AFTERlife---of how the whole system was perpetuated?

Cause you know that Revolutions of all sorts usually want to topple the existing power structure, and the Church 000or something calling itself "the church" is usually part of the power structure..

The French Revolution wasn't too nice to the Church, the Mexican Revolution of 18 whatever stripped the church of its wealth which was overwhelmingly the biggest collective wealth in the country by mega factors, ....

Half of my country is sick and tired past their eyebrows of whore-politicians listening to so called "Christian Conservatives" who are relentless in trying to force their vision of a Taliban-like theocracy on the rest of us.

Pretty understandable why the commies would have animosity.

"You cannot serve two masters" some guy once said..

ioan

7th June 2012, 21:37

Such as....?

There was this exorcism case not long ago in Romania, pretty nasty one and not the only one either.

ioan

7th June 2012, 21:39

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

Brown, Jon Brow

7th June 2012, 23:10

gadjo_dilo

8th June 2012, 08:14

They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.

Might be true. Most of people joined the Communist Party from opportunism and not because they believed in the „cause”. At least in my country communism was imposed not wanted. Many of them continued to follow the religious traditions avoiding to be seen in a church ( example: they wanted to baptize their children, it wasn’t legally forbidden but their presence in the church could add a black page in their „file”, so they called the priest at home and did the service in the bathroom using the bathtub as a font :laugh: ).
However communists can be blamed for horrible crimes, priests can't. And it's fair to say that simply following a rite doesn't make you a good christian.

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

It’s with regret that I have (again!) to say you’re completely lost from the realities of your country. History is based on documents and not on what you listern at a queue in Matache market.

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests – this phenomenon occured esp in the last years of communism and I don’t think they did a lot of harm. The anticommunist feeling was quasi general in that period. Even “Secu” closed their eyes and only add “facts” at our files. And informers were among all of us, doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, writers or simply workers or peasants.
It’s also a fact (but you seem to ignore it, hopefully you do it from lack of knowledge ) that in the stalinist period ( the one when you risked to be sent in jail or channel for a simple joke and when most of the horrible communist crimes had happened in communist camps) many priests were those who supported the resistance fight against communism, many of them were sent to jail –sometimes for the only fault that they believe in God-, and even in jail they helped the other political prisoners to keep their dignity.

BTW, Ioane, have you ever heared of father Dumitru Staniloae?

F1boat

8th June 2012, 08:17

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

They changed them. In the 40s they killed the noble and good priests, Orthodox and Catholic and really tried to enforce the atheist point of view. And they were atheists, you know, it was part of their ideology and there were ridiculous opinions such as plane pilots saying that they went to the sky and found no God. Once they realized that they can not destroy religion, they infiltrated it. So yes, in Bulgaria, from the 50s, I think, many priests were State Security lapdogs. But it wasn't like that in the beginning. Many churches were destroyed and priests killed and the mantra was "religion is opium for the masses". But in the beginning the commies were internationalists and later they became nationalistic.

gadjo_dilo

8th June 2012, 08:30

There was this exorcism case not long ago in Romania, pretty nasty one and not the only one either.

I was expecting this answer about Tanacu case. :laugh: Wonder what else could you say...
Esp. that 2 weeks ago Cristian Mungiu's movie "Beyond hills" based on this case trimphed at Cannes film festival.

What happened at Tanacu is an isolated case and every community has its fools. For those who don't know what we're talking about: a nun was killed by a priest and 4 other nuns in a so called act of exorcism.
But what do you ( Ioan ) think about the fact that the priest was found guilty only for the lack of victim's freedom and a few days ago he was liberated? Justice is not religious....

ioan

8th June 2012, 17:37

They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.

You're not arguing over such important things with a Political Sciences Master holder like F1boat, are you?
He/she , of all of us, has the best knowledge about such things, he knows it all. Well at least that's what he/she says. :s

ioan

8th June 2012, 17:57

It’s with regret that I have (again!) to say you’re completely lost from the realities of your country. History is based on documents and not on what you listern at a queue in Matache market.

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests...

So what exactly is that I didn't understand?!
With regret I have to say that you don't understand what you read and write.

BTW I'm not sure what you Matache market is, I personally learned history from books not from your neighboring market, nor from the soap operas.

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests– this phenomenon occured esp in the last years of communism and I don’t think they did a lot of harm. The anticommunist feeling was quasi general in that period. Even “Secu” closed their eyes and only add “facts” at our files. And informers were among all of us, doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, writers or simply workers or peasants.

The Securitate were the 2nd most atrocious secret police in Eastern European countries, only surpassed by the East Germans.
People working in the Securitate were not closing their eyes to anything, every person over whom they've got an information has been interrogated and the means they were using were in many cases extreme.
Many thousands of people have been imprisoned for life and/or sentenced to hard work at the Danube / Black See channel, and you have think these brutal beasts were turning a blind eye to the information?! Tell that to all those poor political prisoners and to their families!
And those priests you try so hard to protect were the ones who spilled teh beans for many of those thousands who roted in prisons and in work camps!

It’s also a fact (but you seem to ignore it, hopefully you do it from lack of knowledge ) that in the stalinist period ( the one when you risked to be sent in jail or channel for a simple joke and when most of the horrible communist crimes had happened in communist camps) many priests were those who supported the resistance fight against communism, many of them were sent to jail –sometimes for the only fault that they believe in God-, and even in jail they helped the other political prisoners to keep their dignity.

Sure it is a fact, and the proof is where?!
How many of them turned into secret police informants and how many did something good. If you knew the facts you might be surprised. Though it seems that you are a bit misinformed. And BTW even though they have been proved to have been secret police informants those priest are still part of the church and still preaching to people about their gods teachings! Funny eh?!

BTW, Ioane, have you ever heared of father Dumitru Staniloae?

I'm not into religion, as you might have already realized, hopefully, so I don't really care about any one cherry picked examples of yours. I'm sure you know it by know, given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful, though it might work well with the masses. :p

I've read not so long ago a story about a priest who recently did something good for the village that he is assigned too and I say good to him that's a person who deserves praise, the problem is that he's one of the very few priests who do such things even though the Church has the means (read money) to help the people in need.

ioan

8th June 2012, 17:59

At least F1boat is arguing his point in a more mature manner and backing it up with examples. As an outsider in the debate trying to follow, its a darn sight more helpful.

Sure, sure, can you please point us out those examples? Looking forward to it. Thanks.

Though I know you're just trolling around here, so why don't you just get lost unless you have great knowledge about priests in communists countries between 1945 and 1989, in which case please do not keep it a secret.

pino

8th June 2012, 18:44

ioan, cool down and remember that you are not in position to tell our members to get lost...thank you!

gadjo_dilo

11th June 2012, 08:38

So what exactly is that I didn't understand?!
With regret I have to say that you don't understand what you read and write. .
Really? In the future I’ll try to correct this….

BTW I'm not sure what you Matache market is, I personally learned history from books not from your neighboring market, nor from the soap operas. .
“ Matache Macelaru’ ” is a famous market in Bucharest. Its name sounds so trivial to me that I often associate it with this city’s boorish. :laugh:

People working in the Securitate were not closing their eyes to anything, every person over whom they've got an information has been interrogated and the means they were using were in many cases extreme.
Many thousands of people have been imprisoned for life and/or sentenced to hard work at the Danube / Black See channel, and you have think these brutal beasts were turning a blind eye to the information?! Tell that to all those poor political prisoners and to their families!
And those priests you try so hard to protect were the ones who spilled teh beans for many of those thousands who roted in prisons and in work camps! .
I’m not trying to protect priests- why should I ?-. I’m only trying to see the the 2 sides of the coin.
I’m tired to explain you that the communist period in our country had different stages.
All of them were horrible but you can’t compare the Stalinist period with the 70-80’s years. The first is associated with the crimes you mentioned ( let’s not forget that the work at the Channel as a punishment for bourgeoisie was ceased in 1955 ) and also with a resistance movement. I’ll be glad if you can tell me the name of a priest who denounced in that period.
In the years of Ceausescu’s regime, Secu’ was still a fearful institution but however we felt somehow a liberalization. I dare say it was the period when Secu’ expanded its network of informers and priests were not exception. Let’s not forget either that Secu has its own role when Ceausescu was ousted.

.

Sure it is a fact, and the proof is where?!
How many of them turned into secret police informants and how many did something good. If you knew the facts you might be surprised. Though it seems that you are a bit misinformed. And BTW even though they have been proved to have been secret police informants those priest are still part of the church and still preaching to people about their gods teachings! Funny eh?! .
Maybe you forgot that I’m aromanian and (too) many members of my community were political prisoners. I had relatives who spent about 17 years in those jails and it’s a miracle they survived.. One of my sources is their testimony. If they lied then I also lie you.

I'm not into religion, as you might have already realized, hopefully, so I don't really care about any one cherry picked examples of yours. I'm sure you know it by know, given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful, though it might work well with the masses. :p .
Sorry but you shouldn’t be religious to have knowledge of a special man. You can’t ignore a personality just because he was a priest.
BTW if the proportion is 1 to 1000 let’s be useful: I named one now it’s your turn to name 1000 delation priests to counterbalance my example. :laugh: With proofs of course….

I've read not so long ago a story about a priest who recently did something good for the village that he is assigned too and I say good to him that's a person who deserves praise, the problem is that he's one of the very few priests who do such things even though the Church has the means (read money) to help the people in need.
First of all the orthodox church is not as rich as the catholic one. But how can you know such cases when you live abroad and your information is based on what you read from time to time about what’s happening here? Charity is not a thing to make fuss of. and a lot of people does it keeping it in anonymity.

ioan

21st June 2012, 00:45

Sorry but you shouldn’t be religious to have knowledge of a special man. You can’t ignore a personality just because he was a priest.
BTW if the proportion is 1 to 1000 let’s be useful: I named one now it’s your turn to name 1000 delation priests to counterbalance my example. :laugh: With proofs of course….

Huh? Don't you think you are getting a bit over excited there? 1 to 1000?!

gadjo_dilo

21st June 2012, 07:26

Huh? Don't you think you are getting a bit over excited there? 1 to 1000?!

Who? Me???!!!?!

To quote you " given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful ". So it's you who choose the proportion. I picked up a case and I'm still waiting for your 1000....

52Paddy

24th June 2012, 22:17

I believe there is a God. I find it very fulfilling to live my life believing that there is.

ioan

24th June 2012, 22:32

Who? Me???!!!?!

To quote you " given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful ". So it's you who choose the proportion. I picked up a case and I'm still waiting for your 1000....

It looks to me that you either do not understand what you post or you are just looking for a fight, which you wont get, I hope it's the later.

airshifter

25th June 2012, 12:07

It looks to me that you either do not understand what you post or you are just looking for a fight, which you wont get, I hope it's the later.

It looks to me like she called your bluff and you have nowhere to go with it. It is a quote.

gloomyDAY

26th June 2012, 21:50

I change my vote! I am no longer an atheist.

Long live Frigga...

I believe there is a God. I find it very fulfilling to live my life believing that there is.Why? If you didn't believe in God, would that mean that your family, possessions and feelings would be less fulfilling? I'm not sure I see the connection.

52Paddy

26th June 2012, 22:16

Why? If you didn't believe in God, would that mean that your family, possessions and feelings would be less fulfilling? I'm not sure I see the connection.

If I didn't believe in an afterlife, maybe. I can't answer that because I do believe in God. Anyway, the fulfilling part of my life is not solely bound up with family and possessions. Living my life by God's word, to the best of my ability, makes me feel good inside and also confident about a place in heaven. Having a relationship with God is like having a really solid friend continuously by your side and that is fulfilling.

gloomyDAY

27th June 2012, 05:21

If I didn't believe in an afterlife, maybe. I can't answer that because I do believe in God. Anyway, the fulfilling part of my life is not solely bound up with family and possessions. Living my life by God's word, to the best of my ability, makes me feel good inside and also confident about a place in heaven. Having a relationship with God is like having a really solid friend continuously by your side and that is fulfilling.Well, I do respect your belief in God, but as an atheist I still find it hard to believe that there is some omnipresent-being who is constantly by your side. I guess I like the fact that I can be in control of my own life.

I'd probably end up getting stoned to death for apostasy if I were in a Muslim-led nation.

race aficionado

27th June 2012, 16:10

If I didn't believe in an afterlife, maybe. I can't answer that because I do believe in God. Anyway, the fulfilling part of my life is not solely bound up with family and possessions. Living my life by God's word, to the best of my ability, makes me feel good inside and also confident about a place in heaven. Having a relationship with God is like having a really solid friend continuously by your side and that is fulfilling.

It's nice to see someone that is at peace with his faith. and this doesn't mean that "I see it how he sees it."

It would be so cool if we all followed the Golden Rule which simply states that we are to treat other people as we would wish to be treated ourselves.
*not to be confused with "whoever has the gold, makes the rules."

And we will be closer to all be at peace. :andrea:

Now I will switch my peace mode to: Spain will destroy Portugal today in the Eurocup. :D

:s mokin:

Brown, Jon Brow

27th June 2012, 20:12

If I didn't believe in an afterlife, maybe. I can't answer that because I do believe in God. Anyway, the fulfilling part of my life is not solely bound up with family and possessions. Living my life by God's word, to the best of my ability, makes me feel good inside and also confident about a place in heaven. Having a relationship with God is like having a really solid friend continuously by your side and that is fulfilling.

If it makes you feel good then so be it. But one could have a relationship with a imaginary friend that makes them feel good, but this wouldn't mean that the friend actually existed.

What I would like to know is - how do you feel that in the time it's taken me to write this post, your 'friend' has allowed hundreds of children throughout the world to die, either as part of his plan or because he chooses not to save them? Surely that makes him evil?

race aficionado

27th June 2012, 20:42

2971

Sent from my iPhone

Brown, Jon Brow

27th June 2012, 20:50

2971

Sent from my iPhone

Well if you did ask him I am almost most certain that you wouldn't get a response.

52Paddy

27th June 2012, 22:00

What I would like to know is - how do you feel that in the time it's taken me to write this post, your 'friend' has allowed hundreds of children throughout the world to die, either as part of his plan or because he chooses not to save them? Surely that makes him evil?

I wish I knew the answer, but I don't. Simple as. I don't profess to know everything about the mystery I believe in. There are so many things in the world that beckon the question "Why would God allow this to happen?". Although I can't authoritatively give a reason, I feel it must make sense along the line somewhere. Generally, I don't think about this - why? My faith is purely a personal 'venture', if you like. I get on with my bit and try to avoid thinking about massive issues. I'm not the person to ask. You know, I've questioned my faith over such issues, but can't help but believe. God's existence just makes sense to me.