No merger now: TG

[indycool]

This oughta put to bed all the annual April-May merger talk......


http://www.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/10085713

[DRC]

Interesting that Ganassi said before the race that the two sides must merge, and RP was right there and didn't deny it. I still wish the powerful teams and maybe even Honda would put more pressure on merging. It seems both series are headed to oblivion...

[SarahFan]

This oughta put to bed all the annual April-May merger talk......


http://www.sportsline.com/autoracing/story/10085713

why don't you weigh in IC....

is that good or bad for the overall health of OW racing?

[djparky]

Interesting that Ganassi said before the race that the two sides must merge, and RP was right there and didn't deny it. I still wish the powerful teams and maybe even Honda would put more pressure on merging. It seems both series are headed to oblivion...

totally agree- would the last person out of the building (either building) remember to switch off the lights?? How may people were at Homestead- it looked quite busy until I realised that what looked like two thirds of the grandstands were actually completely empty

and what's this- european races as well- ha ha ha- ditch the rubbish cars and Mr George and it could almost be called CART again

Honda had the chance to finish off the IRL yet they decided to remain as a sole engine supplier until 2008??

[HiWayStar]

I would imagine most, if not all, of the teams are in favor of 1 unified series. 1 series = higher profile, higher profile = more sponsors, more (& better) sponsors = more money. As sponsorship has become the biggest issue in the post split world of AOWR, the team owners look for the most obvious solution: a merger. But that requires some compromises at the highest level; compromises that one (or both) principals are not willing to make...

...so we're back to same old, same old...

...and for those who would argue that the IRL has good sponsorship for its teams, look who made the remark: the Chipster.

[CCFan]

Honda had the chance to finish off the IRL yet they decided to remain as a sole engine supplier until 2008??

What else could Honda have done? They had no plans to enter Nascar along with Toyota. They likely would have had to close up shop.

[indycool]

Ken, just IMO, but I think we're farther away from merger than we've been in a long, long time. I have long thought it's more of a CC tactic to glom merger talk around the month of May when it can get some exposure out of it. It started even before Pook's notorious "olive branch." The time for merger talk isn't April and May. Both sides have races to run and don't have time for it. If either party is serious, the time to be doing it is November and December

[grungex]

I have long thought it's more of a CC tactic to glom merger talk around the month of May when it can get some exposure out of it.

Yet here we have Ganassi talking about it in March. I didn't realize he's a secret participant in Champ Car.

[ArrowsFA1]

If either party is serious, the time to be doing it is November and December
If either party is serious the month doesn't matter.

[bblocker68]

Totally agree!

[weeflyonthewall]

Interesting that Ganassi said before the race that the two sides must merge, and RP was right there and didn't deny it. I still wish the powerful teams and maybe even Honda would put more pressure on merging. It seems both series are headed to oblivion...

Its tough for an owner to ignore near empty grandstands when looking across pit lane most of the race. It probably reminded them of why their former series abandoned Homestead.

[weeflyonthewall]

Yet here we have Ganassi talking about it in March. I didn't realize he's a secret participant in Champ Car.

Isn't Target's IRL sponsorship just a window dressing supplement of Chips NASCAR program?

[vette]

Targets position with Ganassi is the Indy 500. McDonald's position with Newman is the free salad dressing.

[CCFan]

Ken, just IMO, but I think we're farther away from merger than we've been in a long, long time. I have long thought it's more of a CC tactic to glom merger talk around the month of May when it can get some exposure out of it. It started even before Pook's notorious "olive branch." The time for merger talk isn't April and May. Both sides have races to run and don't have time for it. If either party is serious, the time to be doing it is November and December

1) The time to talk about a merger is when both parties are serious about it, whatever month that is.

2) Why was Pook's olive branch "notorious?"

[indycool]

It had a bunch of conditional thorns in it that was already known were unacceptable......it was all for show.

[Wilf]

Isn't Target's IRL sponsorship just a window dressing supplement of Chips NASCAR program?

Which came first?

[Wilf]

Targets position with Ganassi is the Indy 500. McDonald's position with Newman is the free salad dressing.


I wonder why he wastes all that money on the other 16 races?

[ZzZzZz]

What else could Honda have done? They had no plans to enter Nascar along with Toyota. They likely would have had to close up shop.

They have a huge amount of leverage. Surely they could work out a deal with CC and bring the top teams, drivers and sponsors with them, right? Leaving TG to struggle with a seriously downsized series...

Of course they would be more diplomatic than directly threatening that, but they have the strength to make TG comply with their conditions.

[CCFan]

They have a huge amount of leverage. Surely they could work out a deal with CC and bring the top teams, drivers and sponsors with them, right? Leaving TG to struggle with a seriously downsized series...


An interesting idea but as Starter says, Honda's main interest in the IRL is Indy. Plus flip-flopping between competing race series would not endear them to anyone.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Once again, a nail is hit on the head. It has always been about Indy, which is why TG doesn't care about what happens to Champ Car, and he really doesn't seem to do much about the IRL's falling fortunes outside of Indy. He cares about his race at HIS track on Memorial Day. Period. He wants control of that and the series he brings in to run at the track. It was always about this and he didn't say it wasn't.

The fact that the IRL has empty grandstands at Homestead bothers TG a little, but he also doesn't own Homestead, so he isn't losing sleep about it either. When Chip and Roger want one united series, they know the writing is on the wall for a merger, but until Kevin Kalkoven can find a wedge issue with Tony, the merger wont happen, and the two series will limp along.

It has always come down to comprimise, and Tony wont give on what he see's as his issues, in that he controls the 500 100% right down to every last rule concerning that event, and if he has to prop up a series to make it all go, he will and he wants 100% control of that. Period. His track record in running the IRL has shown me that he isn't as inept as some of us detractors would like, but he isn't as smart as he thinks he is; for American OW racing has suffered so much in the last 16 years that is is obvious the only way to survive is to use the positive PR and spin you would get from a reunification buzz to take away the attention and power NASCAR is holding over the national media.

Until egos are set aside and what is best for the sport is the only agenda, nothing will change. To be fair to Tony, Kevin has to give up some control too, and his track record is also mixed. Both sides have something the other one wants, but both sides wont give. The Team owners are caught in the middle. The fans have been divided, and the national media and great unwashed look to the NASCAR schedule......

[Jonesi]

snip...he isn't as inept as some of us detractors would like, but he isn't as smart as he thinks he is;

Yes he really is. The entry deadline for this years Indy 500 is 4 days away. Right now there are 10 driver/teams entered, add in the cars we know about brings it to 23 (and some of them are probably holding out, waiting for $ to enter an extra car). So in the next couple of days he has to sit down and write checks to teams like PDM, Schmidt, Playa Del, Cheever, Team Leader, Luyendyk, etc so they can afford to bring in their 2-3 year old cars to fill the field. CART pre-split he would have 40-50 cars by this time, merge with CC and he would have +40 cars again, AND full grandstands. For that to happen he has to admit (at least to himself) that he's an I...T and give up control.

[CCFan]

Once again, a nail is hit on the head. It has always been about Indy, which is why TG doesn't care about what happens to Champ Car, and he really doesn't seem to do much about the IRL's falling fortunes outside of Indy. He cares about his race at HIS track on Memorial Day. Period. He wants control of that and the series he brings in to run at the track. It was always about this and he didn't say it wasn't.


I know that TG would never listen to the opinions of CC fans, but surely there must be someone in his circle of valued friends/partners that have wanted to ask, "Why did he degrade his own race for the benefit of NASCAR & F1?"

What his answer would be?

[indycool]

That would be if someone beside CC fans THINK that TG "degraded his own race...."

[Peter Olivola]

Chutzpah. Pure chutzpah. You know the definition of chuzpah, IC? That's a kid who kills his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of the court because he's an orphan. :rolleyes:


That would be if someone beside CC fans THINK that TG "degraded his own race...."

[Jag_Warrior]

That would be if someone beside CC fans THINK that TG "degraded his own race...."

Without playing a game of semantics, I'd say a ratings drop of 50% (+/-), with a trendline pointing southward, would qualify as degradation in most people's minds.

Come on, Indycool. It's a new day for many of us. Let's all face reality together... CART, Champ Car and IRL fans alike. Join us. There is no point in continuing the charade that one side or the other is going to succeed anytime soon. There are no secret weapons hidden in anyone's basement. Other than the odd ratings blip, neither series has what it takes to bring in and sustain major sponsors, or kick fanbase growth to the next level.

CCWS seems set to rely more and more on goofball ride buyers and Amigo favors. Indy and the IRL will rely on the same type of ride buyers, as well as TBA (Tony's Bank Account) come May.

This is where we are. Step into the light with us. The fewer "yes men" fans that the two series have to rely on, the better off they will be. Don't be an enabler.

[indycool]

Not being an "enabler," Jag. Hundreds of thousands on site during the month of May and millions on TV don't seem to think the Indianapolis 500 is "degraded" and enjoy the race. I am one of those.

I'm not jumping off any bridges because Tristan Gommendy won't be there.

[Jag_Warrior]

No doubt, there will be more than a few "Tristans" there. And we both know that too.

My point being, the fans who no longer watch or attend were not JUST Champ Car fans, as you stated. Whether you feel comfortable stating an answer here or not, just ask yourself, what happened to the millions who have tuned out? Who were they? Why did they turn away? The same question could be asked in CCWS circles.

I still enjoy Champ Car races. And I may broaden my horizons this season and watch other series that I have not previously watched. But I will not lie to myself and try to believe that the state of AOWR or Indy has not been severely degraded over the past decade plus. All it takes is popping in an old race tape from 15 years ago and it's just too apparent to deny.

[indycool]

I 'spect there will be some Tristan types there, but there always have been --remember the first years of guys like Phillippe Gache, Tero Palmroth, Stephan Gregoire, others. Some ran more than once and are more recognizable, others didn't.

But it's Indy. It's not Portland. CC fans pick fly droppings out of the pepper about Bump Day, seats still available on Race Day in Turn 3, ratings being off their peak, etc., but there are two real differences in 12 years: A) Around 35 cars go for the 33 spots instead of around 45, and B) Indy has had CART and CC people shooting at it for 12 years in an effort at tearing it down.

That's without mentioning a new pagoda, new infield hospitality and plaza, continued refurbishing of grandstands and other facilities each year, SAFER barriers, successfully drawing more people to Carb Day with it on Friday instead of Thursday and added attractions, etc.

"Degraded?" Far too strong a term. "Bruised up some?" Maybe.

[Jag_Warrior]

Hmm. Well, in my 3D life, if a department suffers a 50% loss of share or experiences a 50% rise in scrap or defectives, someone is going to be cleaning out their office after the results are posted. Doesn't matter how it's spun, they gotta go. And my comments about ratings had nothing to do with peak ratings, Portland, Long Beach or anything else. Just a simple statement of fact, based on the data. The same thing happened to the Kentucky Derby, but they turned that situation around. Maybe this situation will or can be turned around. I don't know.

But none of that means that there are not people who continue to enjoy Indy. Nothing like that has been stated by me. And what other CCWS fans may do with pepper or fly poop isn't really my concern. What I have stated is simply my definition of what degradation looks like.

If I could pick up tickets to the NASCAR race in Bristol for a few bucks on race day... if the TV ratings fell by 50%... if they had to scramble to get 43 cars out there... if the race's stars weren't the legends in the making that they are now... I would say that the event had been GENERALLY degraded. But I'm sure the fans who made the trip would still have a good time.

[DRC]

The entry deadline for this years Indy 500 is 4 days away.

I have a question...if there's a "deadline for entry", how can those famous "last minute deals" be done? (Remember when that was such a cool thing about Indy? ..when "deals" were done in the last hour of the last day of qualifying and guys bumped there way into the race?) I'm not debating anybody here, I'm truly curious...

[indycool]

Cars are entered, not the drivers. If a car is entered, it can be acquired by another team under the primary entry.

[Alexamateo]

I have a question...if there's a "deadline for entry", how can those famous "last minute deals" be done? (Remember when that was such a cool thing about Indy? ..when "deals" were done in the last hour of the last day of qualifying and guys bumped there way into the race?) I'm not debating anybody here, I'm truly curious...

I'm not sure, but I think it's like Nascar, If you enter after deadline, you don't earn any points and forfeit any contingincy monies for which you might have otherwise been eligible, but Nascar doesn't turn away any cars that can pass tech, so I'm sure Indy won't.

[Jonesi]

I'm not sure, but I think it's like Nascar, If you enter after deadline, you don't earn any points and forfeit any contingincy monies for which you might have otherwise been eligible, but Nascar doesn't turn away any cars that can pass tech, so I'm sure Indy won't.

They never have in the past. The only thing they've done in recent years is to give teams like Marty Roth with only one chassis, a phantom backup entry T-car as TBA. (I also suspect they've back dated the entries TG made happen 2-3 days after the deadline ;-)

[CARTDM15]

Not being an "enabler," Jag. Hundreds of thousands on site during the month of May and millions on TV don't seem to think the Indianapolis 500 is "degraded" and enjoy the race. I am one of those.

I'm not jumping off any bridges because Tristan Gommendy won't be there.

But you should be upset that the best drivers in open wheel racing isn't there.If wasn't for this stupid split you would have never heard of Tristan Gommendy

[djparky]

Once again, a nail is hit on the head. It has always been about Indy, which is why TG doesn't care about what happens to Champ Car, and he really doesn't seem to do much about the IRL's falling fortunes outside of Indy. He cares about his race at HIS track on Memorial Day. Period. He wants control of that and the series he brings in to run at the track. It was always about this and he didn't say it wasn't.

The fact that the IRL has empty grandstands at Homestead bothers TG a little, but he also doesn't own Homestead, so he isn't losing sleep about it either. When Chip and Roger want one united series, they know the writing is on the wall for a merger, but until Kevin Kalkoven can find a wedge issue with Tony, the merger wont happen, and the two series will limp along.

It has always come down to comprimise, and Tony wont give on what he see's as his issues, in that he controls the 500 100% right down to every last rule concerning that event, and if he has to prop up a series to make it all go, he will and he wants 100% control of that. Period. His track record in running the IRL has shown me that he isn't as inept as some of us detractors would like, but he isn't as smart as he thinks he is; for American OW racing has suffered so much in the last 16 years that is is obvious the only way to survive is to use the positive PR and spin you would get from a reunification buzz to take away the attention and power NASCAR is holding over the national media.

Until egos are set aside and what is best for the sport is the only agenda, nothing will change. To be fair to Tony, Kevin has to give up some control too, and his track record is also mixed. Both sides have something the other one wants, but both sides wont give. The Team owners are caught in the middle. The fans have been divided, and the national media and great unwashed look to the NASCAR schedule......

Mark- totally agree, I couldn't see anything wrong with the Indy 500 pre 1996- it was the big race of the schedule, the one they all wanted to win as part of the overall CART Indy Car series. Also agree that ego has had alot to do with the IRL-CCWS split, and in the CART days chronic poor management- if they'd been smart they'd have prevented the IRL from ever happening

it's now 2007 and the IRL is basically the same thing as CART was in the early-mid 1990's but without the fanbase and TV ratings worth anything outside the Indy 500- but crucially they have the Indy 500, and whilst all the CCWS fanatics go on about it's lack of importance, declining ratings etc etc they are wrong- no-one will remember who wins at Homestead, Portland or wherever- but they will remember who wins the Indy 500- it's the only race that matters and the only reason why the IRL continues to exist- if it were in the CCWS calendar then IRL would vanish overnight

[Civic]

On the flip side, a split series makes it more enjoyable to me to attend race weekends because there's less traffic, smaller crowds, and more photo vantage points for me. But that's being selfish.

The other side of me would gladly endure more traffic and bigger crowds for the bigger "buzz". It's like watching an anticipated movie on opening night vs two months later. Watching a movie two months into its run means good seat selection and no lines. But watching a movie alone or with a handful of people in the theater doesn't generate the "buzz" when watching a movie in a crowded theater.

[twisted steel]

The IRL has everything it needs to be a success.If it isn't,look to the top.

[Wilf]

I have a question...if there's a "deadline for entry", how can those famous "last minute deals" be done? (Remember when that was such a cool thing about Indy? ..when "deals" were done in the last hour of the last day of qualifying and guys bumped there way into the race?) I'm not debating anybody here, I'm truly curious...

The "last minute deals" come about with backup cars. For the most part each team will enter two cars per driver in case the primary chassis is severely damaged prior to qualifying. With their backup car they can be back on track almost immediately. That is why most of the "last minute deals" only occur after the primary entries have qualified.

The deadline for entries has a unique twist. The deadline refers to the postmark, not the received date. Therefore you will see entries being received through the week following the deadline.

Anyone want to invest $2.73 in an experiment? If you have access to a postage meter set the date to March 31, 2007 and then mail one envelope each day for the next 7 days and see how many get rejected. The post office is supposed to reject any incorrectly dated mail, but I wonder if they really care beyond April 15 mail (personal income tax filing deadline.)

[Wilf]

The IRL has everything it needs to be a success.If it isn't,look to the top.

The Indy 500 has everything it needs to be a success. If it does, look to the top.

The Indy 500 is still the premier open wheel race in the United States. No, the ratings are not what they used to be and no the race is not a sellout; so all is not coming of roses. But, it still IS and that was the big concern that caused the so called "folly" that Tony built.

[FerrrariF1]

Not being an "enabler," Jag. Hundreds of thousands on site during the month of May and millions on TV don't seem to think the Indianapolis 500 is "degraded" and enjoy the race. I am one of those.

I'm not jumping off any bridges because Tristan Gommendy won't be there.

I'm sure the likes of John Herb and Mika Dunno really gets you excited.....we all have seen Herb and Dunno race but give Gommendy at least one or two races before you judge him...no one ever heard of Sebass either and looked at the type of driver he is....I doubt he is going to lap the field but at least give the guy one or two races before you insult the guy.....in three weeks you can let it rip

[DavePI2]

Enougn of the doom and gloom about empty seats. Has anyone noticed the empty seats at cup events this year, california was bad , atlanta was terrible. Nascar having to make excuses now. Also I was in grandstand c for the brickyard last year and the grandstand accross from me were almost completley empty. So while empty seats certainly are a concern and should be, it is not as bad as it seems. Here's to all open wheel. Looking forward to 5/27 and hope to see members there as well as Cleveland, MidOhio, and Michigan.

David

[Mark in Oshawa]

I just want to say this. I am a Champ Car fan but I follow the IRL. I follow it because of Indy. I grew up loving watching the 500 every year. When the IRL came along, I stopped watching after I watched the 96 race and saw the pile of no name no talent hacks they had running. Most of the drivers in the first 5 years of the IRL were forgettable, and it has only since the stealing of the top CART teams that any of the credability to which the IRL speaks of now was gained. I know that isn't a popular point of view on this board, but Buddy Lazier's career went no where after he won the 500 and he won it because the guys who would normally own Indy were racing in Michigan in the CART US 500.

Now, is Indy better TODAY? Yes, it is almost to the point where one could say it is back, but the reality is, it isn't, for there is only 18 full time cars of quality (Marty Roth is a joke, just like ole Tristan Gommedy. At least Gummiebear won a race of note once in his life. Marty hasn't)in the series, and when Tony is writing checks to get the field to 33, it is rather silly and transparent. Just as the dopes over at Champ Car who really have 10 drivers/teams of quality but insist on maybe having 24 some day. Right now they are life and death to fill 18 seats. Neither series has a monopoly on talent or quality.

That said, Tony has kept his series alive. It looks professional in presentation, unlike the first 5 years, and it has done well with their PR efforts. People who think Tony is inept have to realize that he has hired some smart people to run things, and as long as Tony doesn't tinker, the IRL will soldier on, but it wont be a success. It also will always be dependent on Tony NOT messing with the formula, or Tony not taking his dough and leaving it in his pocket. It is NOT financially healthy as it stands.

So we have two weak series with a common history, bad TV ratings, about 10 good quality drivers and about 5 drivers who could be good in time, and about 4 ride buyer no hopers. Champ Car has better crowds at most of its events, but they dont have the 500. The IRL has the 500, but as Homestead's empty seats showed, the gates could be better. Heck, the writing is on the wall and has been on the wall for years, but only the diehard fans of one series or the other wont see it. You put the egg back together again, leave the 500 as the jewel of your series, and soldier on with professional management. The adverstisers wouldn't have to wonder which series to back, the critical mass of teams would make bump day more of a reality, and 24 quality cars would be on the grid at every race if not more. OH right...they tried this, it was called CART and only one guy didn't like it, so we had to go through all this pain. It is a joke that us fans are forced to choose. I refuse to now, I watch both, and if I could go see the 500 this year, I would. That said, I wont ever say that either side has bathed themselves in glory, but Tony George made a huge mistake with his start of the IRL. He diminished his own jewel by having NASCAR and F1 in to the Speedway, even though he made a ton of dough doing it. The 500 isn't what it was, and that is no one's fault but his own. That was not what he said his goal was with the split, but that is the reality. Just because Tony doesn't want a merger doesn't change the fact one would put OW racing back in the forefront of more fans. It would be the BEST thing for any one who loves the 500 and OW racing, but alas, most of you wont see it that way. I keep trying though, because at one point, it will happen. It will happen because too many smart and rich men are on both sides of this war who know it has to happen, but they wont capitulate because a form of peace has to break out with the best of both sides. If only us fans would figure that out.

[indycool]

Mark, there are a lot of people on BOTH sides of the fence who want "one series," including me. I say "one series" because I don't want to get into the semantics of merger or fold one or whatever. "One series" is the term.

I think it unfair to say TG doesn't want a "merger." I have never heard him say that he didn't think one series would be better. We don't know that he is any more of a roadblock to it than The Amigos are because we don't know what discussions they had, how far they went and what the sticking points were or if they even got that far.

But, a bit of history as far as "Bump Day" at the "500" and 24-car fields are concerned. If there wasn't a USAC sanction at the "500" and USAC rules allowed more turbocharger pressure than CART did at its races during the '80s and early '90s, we would have had short Bump Days 20 years ago. But the extra boost pressure for the Buicks made them competitive at Indy and one-offs to fill the field and compete showed up in some quantity. Indeed, CART owners complained about the Buicks, but some of the biggest complainers, if they were having trouble with qualifying, called Jim Wright at Brayton Engineering to trot out a Buick and try in desperation with that. Indeed, that's how Willy T. Ribbs made a "500" field.

In those days, CART was not regularly fielding 24-car fields because the Buick guys at Indy had no chance of competing under CART boost rules and took a pass. For the 1991 Michigan 500, 21 cars started. PPG pulled the "500"/USAC in with CART to form the PPG Indy Car World Series and that was somewhat peaceful co-existence because PPG coughed up money in equitable deals to both.

But CART, which lusted over taking the sanction of the "500," could have never filled the 33-car field at Indy by itself and it would have been much of what we see today long, long ago.

Forsythe might know this. Kalkhoven and Gentilozzi probably have no clue what I'm even talking about. But you can bet TG knows it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC, 26 to 28 cars showed up regularly at Toronto in the 80's and 90's. Teams didn't go to all the ovals but the road courses had full fields. Now, the Buicks helped fill the field and it made Indy special. Some people in CART should have been open minded about allowing special rules for Indy, but lets face it, Penske's pushrod Mercedes killed the pushrod loophole at Indy and the Buicks. It wasn't anything CART did. What is more, the only race with a purse big enough to fill 33 cars is Indy, and it is the purse that was making 50 drivers show up, not anything USAC or CART was doing or not doing. The reason you dont' get those numbers now is because of the split in cars and loyalites being demanded to be in one series or the other. That and the lack of money in either series.

As for one series, it cannot be one series by one disappearing. Tony wants Champ Car gone, or under his total control. That is why he wont talk merger. He isn't interested in giving up his power. Kalkoven I think wants a merger of equals. He however will not just up and capitulate. He has too much invested emotionally and financially to do that. Until Tony realizes comprimize would get him to where he should go, this crap will continue.

[indycool]

Penske's pushrod Mercedes did its thing after 11 or 12 years of the Buick doing ITS thing, Mark. And yes, you're correct. According to the CC website, fields ranged from 23 to 31 at Toronto from 1986 through 1994.

But a look at the 1994 Toronto field shows that only Al Unser Jr., and Mario Andretti came from the oval ranks out of 31 drivers. In 1989, CART chopped off the traditional second races at Phoenix and Michigan to run more road and street courses.

The purse at Indy, IMO, was entirely welcome (although some owners snuffled they wanted more), but the name on the Borg-Warner Trophy was what their hearts raced for at Indy. They also raced for the exposure fopr their sponsors, etc. Some of the road racers moped that Indy was just another race. Some teams skipped Indy practice sessions to go test at Milwaukee. Some CART owners and executives were talking about shortening the traditional month of May (indeed, the IRL's Leo Mehl later threw that "olive branch" to CART for a couple years and cut it to two weeks....he got no takers and the cut in schedule turned planning upside down for everybody from fans to businesses to competitors). At the same time, CART ran for very little purse money and a lot more in franchise money for the car owners at its races.

All of these things, in their own way, were done in bits and pieces attempts to diminish the magnitude of the "500."

I agree that Forsythe and KK have a lot invested financially. At some point, they might see it as good money after bad. Only they know that. But you blame solely TG for no "compromise," as you put it, when we don't have a clue what has been presented as a "compromise" by either side, so I do NOT understand how you can assess blame to one side for no "compromise." That's bewildering.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC, it is easy to see why I don't see Tony comprimsing. Number one, he was the one who started the split. He made the conscious decision to start the IRL. So, for CART to cater to him was obviously not going to happen. Even if you think Tony is right, it is a little stupid to expect that CART was just going to capitulate that easy. Tony had no track record nor expertese in running a series, or marketing one. His early daillance with USAC running the IRL proved that.

Number 2: Any overtures of merger that have come along in the last decade or so have often been instigated by either CART people, or Roger Penske and some of the IRL owners who had some friends and experience in CART. In each and every case, people were going to Tony. Then Tony was adamant that he listened, was respectful but was going on to continue. I have never once seen nor heard once anything from Tony that said to me he would even CONSIDER a merger. But when CART was in bankruptcy court, boy was he quick to put in an offer. So lets cut the BS he doesn't want one series. He wants it, but only on his terms period. Everyone in the business knows until there is one series, no one is going to win this thing, but unlike Tony, Kevin Kalkoven was quite open and relaxed with the press about saying they had a personal relationship and he was going to talk to Tony about mutual concerns. All Tony has done is try to buy up Long Beach, shove Champ Car aside and take their old venues wherever possible, and we wont even get into the wooing he did to get Honda and Toyota to the IRL (ok, that was a self inflicted wound by the Pookster, but Tony never shied away from opening the door open either. HE wants to WIN).

Listen, if you think CART TRIED to diminish the 500, I wont try to dissuade you in your delusion. First off, 3 weeks of practice and qualifying is very expensive and THAT was the main reason the CART teams were getting tired of the process and some were grumbling. Them taking practices off to test for other races was NOT insulting the 500. It was smart business practice, especially if they were able to make the 500 and run well.

If you think Leo Mehl's olive branch was special to CART teams, that is crap. At that point, the two series were on two different tracks and had been for a long while. They shortened up the month because the IRL teams discovered what CART teams knew years ago: Three weeks at Indy is damned expensive, and often unneccessary. As for CART or Champ Car running for little purse money elsewhere, well, that is fine, but just because Tony has all the money should mean they should just kiss his heiney, especially when he has shown little tact in some of his decisions in dealing with the teams.

CART chopped some oval races including second dates because sometimes they either had empty seats, or the costs of running ovals didn't mean as much business wise as running street courses. Also, to be fair, some CART owners were playing the promotion game at some of these events, and wanted the dates. Hey, that is business, but considering the IRL is running to the road and street dates now, what does THAT say about the IRL business model? It says to me the original vision was a pile of BS.

Listen, if Tony was sincere in his original vision of an all oval series that was to be the crown jewel for guys to come out of the USAC Sprint and Midget ranks, then he would have radically changed the formula for Indy to front engined cars with a strong stock block component. I would have been behind him 100% if he had done THAT, but all he did was a series with older CART chassis with the drivers who couldn't qualfy for most CART races. Since then, he has made it another verision of CART, with half the quality of fields and different looking cars. Sorry, I am not buying it. I like some of the IRL races, and I wont deny the marketing of the IRL has improved a lot in the last 5 years. I like some of the events and I really like the 500. BUT it aint the 500 I grew up on, and don't you be blaming CART or Champ Car for that. Tony cut the heart out of it in 1995, and nothing he has done in the last 12 years will make up for that. There is no Bump Day, there is no 60 cars on the entry list with quality drivers in at least 25 of those cars, there is no diversity on the track in ideas, and there is NO drama at all in the month of May. What is more, he puts the Brickyard 400 in there which to many people is a greater draw now than his supposed Crown Jewel. Poll as many people as you want who are race fans who DON'T live in Indy, and ask them which race they would rather have a seat for, the Brickyard or the Indy 500. I supsect the NASCAR race is the hotter ticket, because I know in the circles I travel in, we all feel the 500 has lost something. I would love the 500 only because I have always loved it and I have a love/hate relationship with NASCAR. I don't like them at Indy, and to me, their presence there is an insult to what Tony said the Speedway was supposed to be about.

You and I agree on some things my friend, but when it comes to Mr. George, I wont let him off the hook for his role in this mess.

[indycool]

Understand your position, Mark, but guess we just disagree to an extent.

As far as "one series" goes, there have been many conversations from many people at various times -- Penske, Mario, Barry Green, Rahal, Kalkhoven, George, Robert Clarke, Dan Davis, Al Speyer, etc.

It hasn't happened. Again, we don't know what was demanded by who or who offered what when. If we did, we could judge who was being unreasonable for ourselves (and likely disagree on that among all of us). But I can't see how we can judge anything since we don't have any details whatsoever about ANY of these discussions.

As far as TG being the "splitter," he started another series in 1996 and made it two series instead of one. When CART went bankrupt, The Amigos jumped in and KEPT it two series instead of one. That one's a push.

[MAX_THRUST]

Dear All

Saw the title of the thread, saw it was Indycool and had to respond,

I'm being totally honest right now!!!! I mean what I'm gonna say.

I hope the IRL and CCWS fold. I have lost all interest in the IRL and Ive lost interest in CCWS. Neither is worthy of anything. ALMS are doing a better job, BTCC are doing a better job, F1 is looking better. I'm only one fan, but how many others have just given up.

The IRL has devalued itself and the CCWS product. CART is dead, what a bunch of dumb arse idiots that brought open wheel to this point deserve to fail. I really don't care if the whole thing collaspes, cause watching 16 or 18 cars is dull. I'd rather watch ALMs where I can see all the top drivers racing each other, or even NASCAR. I'll always blame TG the spoilt brat, but it doesn't matter. What is the Indy 500 today. NOTHING compared to the respect it commanded in the late 80's early 90's. I'm fed up of watching the chickens peck the back of the other chickens heads and wondering why they can't get any chicken feed. And those dumb chickens just keep crapping on each other. This isn't doom and Gloom, this is how it is. There is nothing great about either series any more. Nothing worth getting excited about. It used to be entertaining, now its pathetic. Adios amigo's. I must stop looking at the forums. Every time I vow not to write any more on the IRL or CCWS site there is always something that gets me worked up. It's not because it was better in the old days.......IT JUST WAS BETTER IN THE OLD days!!! Go and watch an old tape of a CART race and tell me it wasn't better than todays races.

THe BTCC is a national series here in the UK, had its first race this season yesterday, 25 cars on the start line. That's worth watching.

[veeten]

Listen, if you think CART TRIED to diminish the 500, I wont try to dissuade you in your delusion.

so, explain to me the reasoning behind the US 500, which was staged at MIS on the same day & time as the Indy 500...

[Jag_Warrior]

As far as TG being the "splitter," he started another series in 1996 and made it two series instead of one. When CART went bankrupt, The Amigos jumped in and KEPT it two series instead of one. That one's a push.

Hardly a push. Nothing prevented George from making a tender offer for MPH stock. And once bankrupt, nothing prevented George from presenting a better plan to Judge Otte and getting the CART assets for himself. If George's desire was to have one series, he's had many opportunities over the years. No need to rehash all of that here, but it's not as if someone swooped in and ran away with the CART assets under the cover of darkness.

Judge Otte didn't see it Tony George's way. Ford Motor Company didn't see it his way. Long Beach didn't see it his way. Yet somehow, "the Amigos" are to blame for this? Mean old Bill Gates. If he'd just shut down Microsoft, Apple Computer would probably be the #1 computer on market now. :dozey:

[indycool]

Whoa, Jag. CART was bankrupt. Kaput. Done. History. No more. If The Amigos had left it alone, it'd be one series.

[DRC]

As far as "one series" goes, there have been many conversations from many people at various times -- Penske, Mario, Barry Green, Rahal, Kalkhoven, George, Robert Clarke, Dan Davis, Al Speyer, etc.

It hasn't happened. Again, we don't know what was demanded by who or who offered what when. If we did, we could judge who was being unreasonable for ourselves (and likely disagree on that among all of us). But I can't see how we can judge anything since we don't have any details whatsoever about ANY of these discussions.

Careful IC, you're sorta proving everybody else's point here. The one constant entity in all of those "conversations" is Tony George. If all of these men couldn't get a merger/unified series together, than I'd have to conclude the problem lies with Tony George...

[indycool]

That's the way some think it went, Starter. But the CART creditors' committee recommended The Amigos' bid because if The Amigos' got it, they would forgive $61 million in debt to the second CART company. If TG got it, they wouldn't.

He didn't miscalculate. He just wasn't going to pay $60-plus million for it and it wasn't a stock deal, it was a bankruptcy auction. So he bid for what he wanted and The Amigos got the whole thing for $3 million.

If The Amigos had not entered the picture at all, it would have been one series. No one else wanted it as a stock buyout when Bear, Stearns put it up. Only TG wanted some pieces at the courthouse when the situation changed from stock buyout to bankruptcy.

So, the Amigos created a split that wasn't there any more because of CART's bankruptcy...for whatever reasons.

DRC, I disagree. It takes two to tango. All those guys have talked to Kalkhoven and/or Forsythe, too.

[ZzZzZz]

It will never happen. That's because it's all about Indy. The rest of the IRL & all ot the CC seasons put together don't equal half of Indy. End of story. Find a way to get Indy in the CC schedule and you'd have something....like I said - never happen.

Honda has flat-out stated that it is not worth it for them to stay without a merger. They seem to have found a way to justify it, but they clearly understand how big things could be and how much greater benefit that would be to them.

They don't need to stay. They have ALMS, F1 and much more. They really do have an incredible amount of leverage. How would TG replace them? I really doubt he could find another manufacturer to equal what Honda is doing.

So, clearly TG would have no rational choice but to do what they ask.

[Jag_Warrior]

Years ago, I held a second mortgage on a piece of property that eventually went into foreclosure. When it went up for sale, I showed up at the court house to bid, as I had a debt position that would have otherwise been wiped out. One of the bidders had plans to turn the property into some sort of women's shelter. I outbid the other parties, secured the property and as far as I was concerned, that was that.

But according to what I'm reading here... if not for me, some poor, abused woman continued to get her eyes beaten shut, because there wasn't a safe haven for her... because mean old me decided to protect my debt position. I guess I should have dropped out of the bidding for the good of humanity. Puuulease! :rolleyes: Whether it's an evaporating equity position or an endangered debt position, it's fantasy to think that rational people will walk away from an entity that holds their money.

As for the CART proceedings, Judge Otte made a decision, partially based on the OWRS group's willingness to assume certain obligations, which George apparently was not willing to do. If George had been willing to protect the interests of the various promoters and tracks, he should have included that in his bid. He chose not to. He lost. The reason Jeff Gordon didn't win at Martinsville was because Jimmie Johnson didn't pull aside and LET him win? Come on now. So unless someone is saying that Judge Otte was a secret CART fan, he made his decision based on factors other than the amount of cash being ponied up. One side was prepared. One side was not.

I sure hope they found another spot for those battered women. But if their group had wanted the spot that bad, they should have come to the auction better prepared. IMO, that applies to anyone trying to buy something that someone else has an interest in.

[indycool]

Without The Amigos fighting for a two-series scenario, not a penny was needed by TG.

[Keep It Real]

Without The Amigos fighting for a two-series scenario, not a penny was needed by TG.

The amigos never fought for a two-series scenario, they simply fought for the only series that matters. What is the other series, by the way?

[HiWayStar]

In other words everyone should just walk away and let TG have any thing he wants, any time he wants it? There already was a two series scenario and had been for some time. His record is poor. He did not have anything to do with building Indy, it was handed to him on a platter. Since he's been in charge the 500 has gone downhill substantially. As has all of OW in America, mostly because of the stupid split. A wise man would have found a way to work around the (inept and greedy) CART board preventing the "split". He chose to walk away in a snit leading to where we are today.

Hindsight being 20/20, if TG had become a team owner (as he is now, with Vision Racing) he could have become part of the "inner circle" he so coveted. And, for all we know, he might have become the head-honcho @ CART by now, without ripping AOWR limb-from-limb...and we'd all be better off...IMO, of course...

[Hoss Ghoul]

Dear All

I'm being totally honest right now!!!! I mean what I'm gonna say.

I hope the IRL and CCWS fold. I have lost all interest in the IRL and Ive lost interest in CCWS. Neither is worthy of anything. ALMS are doing a better job, BTCC are doing a better job, F1 is looking better. I'm only one fan, but how many others have just given up.

.......IT JUST WAS BETTER IN THE OLD days!!! Go and watch an old tape of a CART race and tell me it wasn't better than todays races.



I'm in total agreement with you, and have been for a few years. I only differ in two things; not caring if both series explicity fail or one or the other, just that something happens to break this log jam. And also, my interest in the IRL has grown over the last 5+ years as the quality teams, etc, moved there while CART(now CC) got worse and worse. However, with little or no improvement despite the defections, more balanced schedule(which is still nice),etc,...

I'm forced to conclude that at this point either series(or both) dissapearing would be good overall for the future of AOWR. Indy isn't going anywhere, and other succesful venues and races on both sides won't either...so the net result of a partial or total collapse really can't be much worse than what we're stuck with now. I couldn't care less what rich guy runs the show, just as long as he does a better job than the boobs who have been in control the last decade or so.

[xtlm]

If both collapse, fine.
that would just mean
then the big owners should collaborate and start their own

This is what is needed for it to work:

4 types of tracks
indy 500
25+ cars
a decent TV package and advertising
Penske
Chip Ganassi
Andretti
Newman Haas
and other big names

on a side note
Indy is heading in the right direction (even tho they disbanded everything they stood for....which is probally why it is not working as much as it should), while CART (ya thats right) is going the opposite way (no ovals???)

[indycool]

Okay, hate TG and have two series then, if that's what you want.

[Jonesi]

Okay, hate TG and have two series then, if that's what you want.

That's not what many of us want, but it is more preferable than what you seem to want.

[beachbum]

If both collapse, fine.
that would just mean
then the big owners should collaborate and start their own

This is what is needed for it to work:

4 types of tracks
indy 500
25+ cars
a decent TV package and advertising
Penske
Chip Ganassi
Andretti
Newman Haas
and other big names

on a side note
Indy is heading in the right direction (even tho they disbanded everything they stood for....which is probally why it is not working as much as it should), while CART (ya thats right) is going the opposite way (no ovals???)

Ok, so add a few cars and Newman Haas (and other big names) to the IRL and you have the list. Start with CC and Newman Haas and then what? Add all of the other suggestions? Not going to happen.

Both series are going in different directions. One, both, or neither will fall off a cliff at some point. But their business models are so different that I can't see a merger. Maybe a hostile one if a few teams defect from one and go to the other, but thats about it. So for the time being, the fans are stuck with two weak series that are both treading water waiting for the other to drown. Hardly a situation any of us like (well maybe a few)

[Jag_Warrior]

Without The Amigos fighting for a two-series scenario, not a penny was needed by TG.

The woulda, coulda, shoulda factor is the bane of many a man's existence, eh?

[indycool]

Well, guess they wanted to be separate from TG and/or the "500."

[ZzZzZz]

I'd rather talk about how to change the future. Bickering about the past is pointless.

[MAX_THRUST]

23 as at 4.4.07 what was it last year.....

[Jonesi]

The list I saw from IMS said 27 entries, with 20 named drivers. Only Ganassi's 2? not in yet of the regulars, after that it's probably all TG writing checks to fund the one offs.

[MAX_THRUST]

What was the figure in 1995? Somehow think it would have been more....

Isn't it time that the Indy 500 was sanctioned by an independent Body ie, USAC or the FIA, they could then set the rules for that one race from the IRL calender so that the formula could be opend up, ie, restrict CCWS cars engines or the IRL which ever is more powerful so that we get a semblance of equality between the two varying machines, same goes for down force wings etc.

Maybe then the Indy 500 would have more cars more respect internationally and some interest for those of us that have lost interest.

i know there are holes in all ideas any of us have, but 23, 27, even 33 cars isn't enough. How many cars fail to qualify for races in NASCAR these days? No one ever fails to qualify in CCWSor the IRL because they need all the cars they can get.


ZZZZZ is that better for the future? Also what are Honda doing right now, and next year, does the IRL still have engines next year, or will Honda go the ALMS route as Toyota has with NASCAR.

You guys have gotme interested agian with this thread

[Peter Olivola]

So, all you need to do is convince the owner of the race and race track to do things your way. Owner. As in the guy who gets to decide who the sanctioning body will be. You might want to wrap your brain around that concept, understand it, and integrate into your very being before you jump up on the soap box to advocate something related to it.


What was the figure in 1995? Somehow think it would have been more....

Isn't it time that the Indy 500 was sanctioned by an independent Body ie, USAC or the FIA, they could then set the rules for that one race from the IRL calender so that the formula could be opend up, ie, restrict CCWS cars engines or the IRL which ever is more powerful so that we get a semblance of equality between the two varying machines, same goes for down force wings etc.

Maybe then the Indy 500 would have more cars more respect internationally and some interest for those of us that have lost interest.

i know there are holes in all ideas any of us have, but 23, 27, even 33 cars isn't enough. How many cars fail to qualify for races in NASCAR these days? No one ever fails to qualify in CCWSor the IRL because they need all the cars they can get.


ZZZZZ is that better for the future? Also what are Honda doing right now, and next year, does the IRL still have engines next year, or will Honda go the ALMS route as Toyota has with NASCAR.

You guys have gotme interested agian with this thread

[MAX_THRUST]

There are lots of race track owners that have no say in what the sanctioning body has to say, take Monaco as an example Silverstone and so on.

He is just a track owner after all.......

EGO's egos egos thats all it is about all it has ever been about, its time to take the ego's away and let someone else run it for the benefit of the buisness, and not just because they couldn't get a say on how things were run in CART. I hope it all blows up in everyones face but it wont, because life is unfair, and so is the fact we loose out every year to watch crappy CCWS races compared to CART races and ugly cars and a crappy 500 every year compared to the days of CART and Usac sanctioning.

This is why I'm loosing interest in it all. It's not about doing it my way or any body elses way, its about doing it properly, like F1 and NASCAR, there are those that run the series those that run the tracks, those that run the teams, you mix them up into one then its clearly a mess......Well the last 12 years are pathetic, TG has done well with the IRL , CCWs has done well on there own, but they could all do better together....

[Easy Drifter]

Indy Cool: 4 pages from a simple post saying no merger this year! Post something complicated so we can have 40 pages.

[indycool]

Starter, okay, YOU don't hate TG. Many others put an "F" in front of those initials on certain boards.

You say it can't be a capitulation. I don't know why you think that but it was a de facto capitulation when CART went bankrupt. The Amigos made it not so and two series again. Anyone who wants one series including the Indianapolis 500 now better accept the reality that TG isn't going to hand the keys to it over to the newbie from Australia, the $30 million MPH loser from Chicago and the huffer and puffer from Lansing. Sorry. Reality. Ain't gonna happen.

[Hayden Fan]

Starter, okay, YOU don't hate TG. Many others put an "F" in front of those initials on certain boards.

You say it can't be a capitulation. I don't know why you think that but it was a de facto capitulation when CART went bankrupt. The Amigos made it not so and two series again. Anyone who wants one series including the Indianapolis 500 now better accept the reality that TG isn't going to hand the keys to it over to the newbie from Australia, the $30 million MPH loser from Chicago and the huffer and puffer from Lansing. Sorry. Reality. Ain't gonna happen.

I'll put that F in front of TG in a big FTG from you friendly CC fan.

[indycool]

Nope, not what you said in that respect. But you DID say it couldn't be a "capitulation." I don't see any other way for it to happen. How's it gonna work? TG has gone through 12 years of sometimes violent hatred from so-called fans at places like CW and OC and shots from KK at the start of the OWRS ownership. How many posts have we seen over those 12 years that say, "well, I want one series, but TG can't run it." Both didn't happen in CART bankruptcy court and both aren't gonna happen now. That's reality.

[Peter Olivola]

Okay, then I expect you're ready to put the money to make it all happen. No one else seems to want to so it's up to you. Oh, you don't have the money? So sorry, but thanks for playing. :rolleyes:


There are lots of race track owners that have no say in what the sanctioning body has to say, take Monaco as an example Silverstone and so on.

He is just a track owner after all.......

EGO's egos egos thats all it is about all it has ever been about, its time to take the ego's away and let someone else run it for the benefit of the buisness, and not just because they couldn't get a say on how things were run in CART. I hope it all blows up in everyones face but it wont, because life is unfair, and so is the fact we loose out every year to watch crappy CCWS races compared to CART races and ugly cars and a crappy 500 every year compared to the days of CART and Usac sanctioning.

This is why I'm loosing interest in it all. It's not about doing it my way or any body elses way, its about doing it properly, like F1 and NASCAR, there are those that run the series those that run the tracks, those that run the teams, you mix them up into one then its clearly a mess......Well the last 12 years are pathetic, TG has done well with the IRL , CCWs has done well on there own, but they could all do better together....

[indycool]

Has it reached the point where it's a "personal vendetta against anything associated in any way with TG?..."

My point: A healthy portion of CC fans on the boards blame TG for no merger.

1. It takes two to tango.

2. Nobody on the boards knows who offered what (if anything) to who (if anybody) to effect such a merger.

[Komahawk]

Instead of bashig TG and demanding the FIA to sanction the 500 (LOL!) certain people should just wake up to reality. Even if the IRL was to go broke and CC to succeed (which seems unlikely at this point) he'll STILL be in charge of the by far most important event on the USOW-schedule. So like it or not, he's gonna be one of the guys calling the shots, if not the only one.

Deal with it.

[BoilerIMS]

How long are you guys going to rehash this? Why not just reread the old threads?

[indycool]

Understand, Starter.....and that's probably as close as we'll get to agreement. Others "tend" to go past your statement. And I doubt my version of history and yours "jive," but that's a discussion for another day.

[Jag_Warrior]

Why does it matter what some others "tend" to do? One of the problems with these boards is the fans who feel a need to keep up the partyline, despite what the facts show. For a long while, I was in that camp as well. But just like with most political boards I've posted on, at some point, the desire to uphold the partyline overshadows the bigger picture.

Whether it's IRL or CCWS, it seems to me that the "party faithful" cheerleader groups are shrinking... just as the relevance of the sport among average sports fans is shrinking. TV ratings do not lie over the long term. Sun spots and golf outings can only be used to explain certain special cause happenings. The trend is what it is. Whoever or whatever is to blame, THAT is where we are.

[indycool]

Thoughtful post, Jag. "Conditioned" responses and attitudes are what they are.

[Jag_Warrior]

I understand IC. I've been there myself. To me, it ceased being a "happy place".

[ZzZzZz]

How many posts have we seen over those 12 years that say, "well, I want one series, but TG can't run it."

Hasn't he stepped back from running the series now, to focus on his team? Maybe that's a step. What will he do if the expert businesspeople he hires advise him to move towards doubling his revenues with only a relatively moderate increase in expenses? Veto, fire or listen?

[indycool]

Question #1: It acts like it.

Question #2: IF he has experts who can advise him of that and show him the numbers, that's a no-brainer. Wish I had those kinds of experts.

[NoFender]

Ok, I forgot what the subject of the thread was. Anyway, as far as merger and TG/KK, I'm done. I'm done getting into the BS of openwheel. I was upset when places like Road America and Mid-Ohio weren't being run, but now, I have all my fav tracks (except Laguna) on my radar to watch ow racing. We either camp or get hotels for the races we attend, and this year IRL will out number CC events because of the schedule and where I live.That's not great, but I'll take 1 race at RA over 3 at other venues any day. The Indy 500 is my headliner. There's nothing that will ever replace it. I don't care who is calling the shots anymore. All I care about, is that I'm at a race, and that there's beer in the cooler. I hang a CC flag, and a IRL flag at every race I go to. Nobody has had the stupidity to say squat to me for it. I look at that as a sign that nobody really cares about that crap anymore. Just give us something to watch besides NASCAR. Long live OpenWheel, no matter what form!!!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't see a problem with TG running the Indy 500. In running that actual event, he has done alright. He has done a great job putting money in his jeans there, but I do think he has devalued the 500 with the NASCAR boys coming there, but I guess that too is change that I better get used to.

What I wont get used to though is the idea that TG should RUN American OW racing. Why? Well, I blame him for the split more than many on the IRL board, and you wont sway me from that, and I don't think he understands racing. He doesn't understand what he needs to make a series and he doesn't understand what this split in fans and series has DONE to the sport. If he cannot see the issues, he wont fix them and THAT is huge to me. If he came out and really pushed hard on KK to get a merger, and came out publically, he would win the PR battle in a heartbeat. Yet every time the Merger talk came out, it was leaked out through Penske, through KK, thru the teams, and it was always along the lines of :"they are talking, Tony isn't sure..." and then bam, it was dead a month later. Now I don't blame Tony entirely for not giving in, but at LEAST push the issue. I don't think Tony really seems to grasp that he has damn near witnessed the death of the sport. What is more, he always ignored CART but when they went bankrupt, he wanted the whole series and was mad that he didn't get it. He just doesn't understand the fact he may have to share the spotlight, the responsiblity and the heritage of the sport. It may BE that the Indy 500 is the biggest OW race in North America, if not the world, and it may be he runs the IMS, but he cannot control the sport too. There is too much mismanagement and mistakes in his running of the IRL to let me have my TRUST that he can run the sport.

CART came about because the people running the Speedway let USAC run everything, and as USAC proved in the early years of the IRL, they are not up to the job and were not then either. What is more CART was vying with F1 in popularity in EUROPE. Over here, it was even with f1 in Canada and AHEAD of f1 by far with Americans. Now neither CCWS nor the IRL can legitimately say they dominate anything. There has been too much mismanagement of OW racing in the last decade and a half from a marketing and vision standpoint to let Tony or Kevin run a merged series. I would like to see both of them have voices, but both of them better get their head's out of their @sses and realize this sport is near death with a lot of people.

I used to be a hardliner, but as Jag says, it wasn't a happy place, and I am open to comprimise and a change, but damn it, I don't know if Tony is. I really think he wont be happy truly until he rules the whole damned show, just like the France's in Daytona run NASCAR. THe problem is, the France's BUILT their series from the ground up, Tony has just devalued the whole asset of OW racing in America. He is a nice man, but he has no business running racing. The speedway yes, all of OW racing, No.

[indycool]

Mark, do you know if KK is "open to compromise and a change?" I don't. We don't know anything that has been proposed from EITHER side regarding merger, and even if and when, in order to discuss it objectively.

Forum posters can do the "I hate TG" blame thing and the "I hate KK" blame thing. But it takes two to tango and we don't even know if either of them stepped up on the dance floor.

You say it was "leaked out" that TG "wasn't sure" on merger talk, but we don't know what elements of what he wasn't sure of, whether Penske agreed with TG or not, whether Walker agreed with KK or not, whether anybody agreed with anybody or not, etc.

As far as TG "wanting the whole series" in CART's bankruptcy, that is inaccurate. He bid on Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. And after not getting those, I don't recall him being mad. I remember a quote from him saying, "You need to watch what you wish for because you might get it."

I disagree that CART was "vying with F1 in Europe." It didn't hold a candle to F1 in Europe. I'll agree it was even in Canada because it had Toronto and F1 had Montreal, both had major markets, big sponsors and successes at that time. In the U.S., both series are STILL ahead of F1, which is relegated to Speed, even with your hated TG bringing an F1 race to this country for the smallest audience of the three races at the Speedway.

And we don't have any idea whether or not TG can be the France family of open-wheel racing or not in this country and build it up. He has not had that opportunity with a clear playing field. We DO know the Craigs and Heitzlers and Rahals and the like couldn't do it without Indy and an IPO and went bankrupt trying.

The idea of "dominance" (your word) is tunnel-vision. There is no trophy for being better than NASCAR or better than F1 in this way or that way or the other way. There's more competition out there in the general public, particularly and overwhelmingly in the U.S., from other sports, from other activities, from all kinds of things.

How do you expect CC to do against the NFL in the fall on TV with across-the-pond races? CC's .9 on network last weekend at Vegas wasn't against a NASCAR race or even an IRL race. It was against The Masters. Do you figure there was more "action" in the Vegas casinos on the race or The Masters or baseball?

In your country, Mark, I've read race fans post complaints about the TV networks putting CC races on the shelf in favor of curling and soccer. Do you dislike the guys running curling and soccer because of this and have an overwhelming need to squash them like bugs?

[weeflyonthewall]

Has it reached the point where it's a "personal vendetta against anything associated in any way with TG?..."

My point: A healthy portion of CC fans on the boards blame TG for no merger.

1. It takes two to tango.

2. Nobody on the boards knows who offered what (if anything) to who (if anybody) to effect such a merger.

Take off your rose colored TG glasses for a minute. What is your uncle doing to improve the situation? He's left it up to some of the founding CART team owners to carve out a future for him. Penske with Detroit, Andretti with St. Petes. After Indy who's rumored to throw a monkey wrench into his well oiled machine? In less than two months 2008 will become much clearer.

[weeflyonthewall]

Mark, do you know if KK is "open to compromise and a change?" I don't. We don't know anything that has been proposed from EITHER side regarding merger, and even if and when, in order to discuss it objectively.

Forum posters can do the "I hate TG" blame thing and the "I hate KK" blame thing. But it takes two to tango and we don't even know if either of them stepped up on the dance floor.

You say it was "leaked out" that TG "wasn't sure" on merger talk, but we don't know what elements of what he wasn't sure of, whether Penske agreed with TG or not, whether Walker agreed with KK or not, whether anybody agreed with anybody or not, etc.

As far as TG "wanting the whole series" in CART's bankruptcy, that is inaccurate. He bid on Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. And after not getting those, I don't recall him being mad. I remember a quote from him saying, "You need to watch what you wish for because you might get it."

I disagree that CART was "vying with F1 in Europe." It didn't hold a candle to F1 in Europe. I'll agree it was even in Canada because it had Toronto and F1 had Montreal, both had major markets, big sponsors and successes at that time. In the U.S., both series are STILL ahead of F1, which is relegated to Speed, even with your hated TG bringing an F1 race to this country for the smallest audience of the three races at the Speedway.

And we don't have any idea whether or not TG can be the France family of open-wheel racing or not in this country and build it up. He has not had that opportunity with a clear playing field. We DO know the Craigs and Heitzlers and Rahals and the like couldn't do it without Indy and an IPO and went bankrupt trying.

The idea of "dominance" (your word) is tunnel-vision. There is no trophy for being better than NASCAR or better than F1 in this way or that way or the other way. There's more competition out there in the general public, particularly and overwhelmingly in the U.S., from other sports, from other activities, from all kinds of things.

How do you expect CC to do against the NFL in the fall on TV with across-the-pond races? CC's .9 on network last weekend at Vegas wasn't against a NASCAR race or even an IRL race. It was against The Masters. Do you figure there was more "action" in the Vegas casinos on the race or The Masters or baseball?

In your country, Mark, I've read race fans post complaints about the TV networks putting CC races on the shelf in favor of curling and soccer. Do you dislike the guys running curling and soccer because of this and have an overwhelming need to squash them like bugs?

What do you know? 0.9 is pretty respectable for open wheel these days. The whole industry is changing. Fans in the seats is where it starts and CC is doing much better than the non-Indy IRL events.

[MAX_THRUST]

If the two became one then imagine the media interest in that story. All the sponsors and drivers at one race weekend every two weeks. The support series, the possibilities are there. But alas we have to struggle on with two series that aren't so great anymore. The Long beach race was better than the Las Vegas in my mind, and The StPete race was better than Homestead.

It all just seems really pointless now, the only reason I sugested the FIA takes over control of the 500, is because nothing possitive has really happened for the sponsors it is still the same stale mate it has been for years now, and for many their interest is fading. Especially in Europe where we have GP2 series and F1 which is hotting up to be a good year. The FIA would screw it up anyway. Its just stupid that we can't watch Helio, Dario and Andretti, Tracy, all on the same track together. I also feel there are fewer personallities in CCWS right now as well. Damn Will Power is dull!!!!

[indycool]

Okay, weefly, what about the .6/1 share final on Long Beach on network? And you missed my whole point, mbut I'd guess that was intentional to get your licks nin, so not much point in rebutting.

[Jag_Warrior]

It all just seems really pointless now, the only reason I sugested the FIA takes over control of the 500, is because nothing possitive has really happened for the sponsors it is still the same stale mate it has been for years now, and for many their interest is fading. Especially in Europe where we have GP2 series and F1 which is hotting up to be a good year. The FIA would screw it up anyway.

I've generally felt that the FIA was only good for screwing up any series other than Formula One... sometimes intentionally, sometimes by accident: sports cars and rallying.

But in this case, I'd say American open wheel racing is so massively screwed up and out of favor with the average sports fan, what could the FIA possibly do that would screw it up any worse?

[bblocker68]

so, explain to me the reasoning behind the US 500, which was staged at MIS on the same day & time as the Indy 500...

Jimmy Vasser needed to run a different race because he was lactose intolerant :)

"Who needs milk"? Not Jeemy!

[DRC]

...

[weeflyonthewall]

Okay, weefly, what about the .6/1 share final on Long Beach on network? And you missed my whole point, mbut I'd guess that was intentional to get your licks nin, so not much point in rebutting.

Oh? Even NASCAR ratings are headed into the basement. %-wise worse than OW.

[openwheeler]

KK's teams have been publically invited to take part at Indy, just as they have been for many years - the only new twist on the story this year is that the prospective teams marketing brochure was sent out later than usual

nature is running it's course, it's up to each owner to make a decision for themselves what they can afford to do

[Mark in Oshawa]

Weefly NASCAR ratings are down, not in the basement. That is where the IRL and CCWS keep THEIR ratings.....

As for Champ Car teams showing up at Indy, ya, like they want to spend the money to buy chassis for ONE race when they are testing and working a brand new chassis in their own series. This lack of business sense on the part of a few of you fans on the IRL side of this debate is why I think most of you are nuts. Some of you have cogent ideas and arguments, and I like watching the IRL so I am a fan of the series on a casual level, but as I have stated many times before, Tony George doesn't know how this business works. He knows Indy, and that is all he really knows. The rest he is guessing on or hiring people to worry about it for him. It has been a disater for racing on the OW side of the ledger this split, and he started the IRL because he thought he knew better. 12 years later we know better....

[openwheeler]

I agree totally

without sponsors, it just doesn't make any sense - heck, they don't spend a dime on driver promotion so why would they jump up and suddenly run Indy?

[weeflyonthewall]

Weefly NASCAR ratings are down, not in the basement. That is where the IRL and CCWS keep THEIR ratings.....


Re read my post. Key word "HEADED" is a quote from the current issue of Autoweek. I also liked the comment about fans being dressed as empty seats. That reminds me of the Homestead and St. Pete's crowd.


Oh? Even NASCAR ratings are headed into the basement. %-wise worse than OW.

[indycool]

weefly, you want to go by percentages, that's a fine spin.

Six NASCAR race ratings exceeded the Indianapolis 500 last year.

Whether the ratings are up or down for NASCAR, take a look at the rating for NASCAR at Texas vs. the 0.6/1 share on network from CC's marquee event at Long Beach and tell us which is higher and by how much?

[weeflyonthewall]

Everything in life is relative. Which is one of many reasons you shouldn't date your sister. ;)

That's encouraging.

[F1fanru]

That's without mentioning a new pagoda, new infield hospitality and plaza, continued refurbishing of grandstands and other facilities each year, SAFER barriers, successfully drawing more people to Carb Day with it on Friday instead of Thursday and added attractions, etc.

"Degraded?" Far too strong a term. "Bruised up some?" Maybe.

The above was for attraction no demand of BE and F1 not the IRL, the IRL was merely a benefactor to the renovations. Carb and pole days use to attract 100,000's of people today what 10-15K, that's your definition of bruised?
I just hope for common equipment, then the teams will choose what races they attend and the true strength of each series would come out. That's why TG will never allow common equipment package, allows the teams to cherry pick events. If there were any CC teams wanting to race ovals they would of been in the IRL long ago. The merger simply comes down to race breakdown and CC isn't going to accept a oval dominate series, they may accept 3 or 4 and that's it. Until one side capitulates to the other the status quo will remain.

[F1fanru]

Whoa, Jag. CART was bankrupt. Kaput. Done. History. No more. If The Amigos had left it alone, it'd be one series.

And we'd be racing 18 ovals and 3 RC. The amigos saved OW RR in NA.

[F1fanru]

IC, you do have a point. On the other side, Tony tried to get the good parts of CART on the cheap without taking any of the bad parts. He miscalculated in that the 3A's stepped in with a plan that the judge thought better than his offer. He probably did not think that would happen. So I wouldn't blame the Amigos for a business mistake on Tony's part. If his offer had been better he would have had it.

Otte could of never gave TG the decision, bankruptcy is to keep the company operating, honor existing contract, keep people employed etc.. TG came to court with the plan to shut down CART therefore he could of never got the decision.

[indycool]

F1fanru, you seem to have no idea of the fluctuations of what has appeared lately to be Pole Day and Carb Day attendance, so I won't even ask you for a reputable link to those numbers.

CART was ALREADY shut down. Bankrupt. Over. History. TG bid on three events at open auction. The creditors committee recommended otherwise and the judge agreed on a legal basis. If The Amigos hadn't been there, we'd have one series.

As for road racing in the United States, the IRL now races at Infineon and Mid-Ohio. CC races at Portland and Road America, and if you want to expand to North America, Mont Tremblant and Mexico City. That's two road races each at permanent circuits in the U.S. The races TG bid on were Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. So, how has CC "saved it" any more than the IRL has or probably would have MORE?

[F1fanru]

F1fanru, you seem to have no idea of the fluctuations of what has appeared lately to be Pole Day and Carb Day attendance, so I won't even ask you for a reputable link to those numbers.


According to IC what are the numbers for carb and pole day in 2006?

(would you like a link to a few pictures of pole and carb day from the 70's and 80's then you can make your own conclusion on the numbers)

[indycool]

No, like I said, that is far too complex an argument to get into and has no bearing on the thread topic. For one thing, there are more seats there than there were when you're talking about. For another, there are no more boilerplate milestones to be reached on Pole Day, i..e, 150, 200. For another, there is more competition for the entertainment dollar. For another thing, there are wider choices on TV and more things to do. That's called societal progress and I doubt that you do everything now the way you did it in the '70s, starting with use of computers to post on racing forums. And since they moved Carb Day to Friday from Thursday, attendance has increased on that day dramatically, from what the naked eye can see.

The Speedway has never announced attendance numbers. The estimates are all over the park, and lately, they largely depend on whether you enjoy the "500" or are a CC devotee.

[Alexamateo]

No, like I said, that is far too complex an argument to get into and has no bearing on the thread topic. For one thing, there are more seats there than there were when you're talking about. For another, there are no more boilerplate milestones to be reached on Pole Day, i..e, 150, 200. For another, there is more competition for the entertainment dollar. For another thing, there are wider choices on TV and more things to do. That's called societal progress and I doubt that you do everything now the way you did it in the '70s, starting with use of computers to post on racing forums. And since they moved Carb Day to Friday from Thursday, attendance has increased on that day dramatically, from what the naked eye can see.

The Speedway has never announced attendance numbers. The estimates are all over the park, and lately, they largely depend on whether you enjoy the "500" or are a CC devotee.

Good Post IC and something else I to think about is that IMS now has 3 major events to sell tickets for. Tony George is now selling more tickets than ever before.

It used to be only Pole day and Race day as major events. I have no doubt that people in the region that used to go to Pole day and the 500 are now going to the 500 and the Brickyard or the 500 and the F1 race. I don't know about the rest of you, but my race attendance budget is limited so I have to pick and choose (not to mention family considerations etc.)

[indycool]

Oops, thanx, Starter! :)

[O&A Virus]

F1fanru, you seem to have no idea of the fluctuations of what has appeared lately to be Pole Day and Carb Day attendance, so I won't even ask you for a reputable link to those numbers.

CART was ALREADY shut down. Bankrupt. Over. History. TG bid on three events at open auction. The creditors committee recommended otherwise and the judge agreed on a legal basis. If The Amigos hadn't been there, we'd have one series.

As for road racing in the United States, the IRL now races at Infineon and Mid-Ohio. CC races at Portland and Road America, and if you want to expand to North America, Mont Tremblant and Mexico City. That's two road races each at permanent circuits in the U.S. The races TG bid on were Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. So, how has CC "saved it" any more than the IRL has or probably would have MORE?


Great post IC---plus throw in Starter's point about the Glen.

[FerrrariF1]

Whoa, Jag. CART was bankrupt. Kaput. Done. History. No more. If The Amigos had left it alone, it'd be one series.

And if George didn't start the IRL open wheeled racing in the U.S. would not be split and would still be on top in the United States as it was prior to George starting the IRL...in the end both series are nowhere....Open Wheeled racing will never be where it needs to be under any George leadership. There are too many people that blame him (an rightly so) for the destruction of open wheeled racing in the U.S.

The only way open wheeled racing will move forward is if George sells off to someone else. It doesn't matter who but anyone other than George. You will also see the two series merge together in a matter of hours with George out of the way. George is the block here and no one else. George should just go away period. I assure you that if George sold out to Penske or Ganassi or Andretti or anyone else both sides would be together. Everyone wants one series except for one man and that is George.

[indycool]

Well, Ferrari, guess you made yourself clear. But if George split the sport in '96, The Amigos split the sport in '04, because it would've been one series without them.

You can hate George all you want to and blame him for the sun coming up in the east but that really doesn't mean anything....and just what was open wheel "on top of" before the split?

[CARTDM15]

The Amigos didn't split the sport .They took a sport out of bankruptcy.Thats a big difference.You can worded any way you want to but when TG started the IRL open wheel racing went down the tube.Thats a fact.You may still go to the 500 and call it great but most race fan know there is more to a race season than the 500.He started the IRL no one else did so the blame will always fall on him.When the Amigos took CART out of bankruptcy the damage has already been done.

[indycool]

CART was BANKRUPT. It was NO MORE. That left open-wheel racing joined in ONE SERIES. That is, without The Amigos. As I said, TG split the sport in '96. And The Amigos made sure it kept itself split in '04.

[indycool]

Starter, NASCAR had more races and more attendance when CART was BORN than open-wheel racing did in the U.S. and when ESPN started around 1980 with a lot of attention to NASCAR (and CART, too), that was NASCAR's first more noticeable "spurt." At the time and well into the '90s before the split, this was the case attendance-wise except for Indy. Throughout CART's tenure leading up to the split, it was trying to be at odds with everyone, but especially wanted to be like Formula One. Bernie sloughed that off because he held all those cards and simply got the FIA to let CART run on ovals outside the U.S....no big deal. CART DID run F1 out of Long Beach and Detroit by undercutting the price and with INDY CARS that people closer to home knew something about. But in no way was it outdoing the good ol' boys....if for no other reason than NASCAR simply had a lot more races to show the folks.

[indycool]

Of course your first premise is true. NASCAR is NOT open wheel. But back then almost all of the races were in the U.S. and that was the marketplace. Until CART starting ditching ovals, NASCAR outdrew CART by a large margin at places like Michigan and Pocono, which ran both.

Don't know what the deal was on Surfers, but know it was a special one-off one when CART and FIA decided to make music and get along better. Monterrey came later and the two Mexico City races in the early '80s, Bernie and the FIA didn't care. The hangup, as I understand it, about CC's proposed Zhuhai race is that a fall date is too close to Bernie at Shanghai and the FIA is standing pretty firm. That's why CC threw the date out in May in the first place, knowing there would be a problem in the fall, which made sense expense-wise for them to pair it with Surfers.

As for your third point, guess we disagree when it comes to a comparison with NASCAR at Pocono and Michigan. Fontana hasn't been around all that long. And Indy didn't have as many seats as it does today.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC, Indy has all those seats because Tony wants to pack in the NASCAR fans for the Brickyard.

CART was doing great on ovals in the 90's but only some ovals. For whatever reason, oval track attendance was dropping before Tony decided he wanted to run the show. His insistance on an all oval schedule was just silly for CART to try to emulate when they had top events in Long Beach, Toronto, Surfer's, Vancouver, and a host of road courses that were still drawing good numbers. The current reality of what the IRL is slowly saying that the original CART was not out to lunch at all, but that was the feeling at the time. Revisionist history doesn't change the fact that CART had good crowds at all the dates back in the 90's and contrary to popular belief, the teams loved the 500 and respected what it was. The fact they didn't buy into Tony's concept was a business decision based on they were not going to hand over what they built for Tony to control. It really is just that decision that has created the problems we have now. We don't have the same numbers of fans, and I don't care how you spin the fact there are more seats at Indy, many have told me it was hard to get tickets 15 years ago for the 500 and it isn't now. It isn't the draw it was, and that is a reality that wont go away. It is the same reality that the casual racing fan is confused.

So for all this talk of merger, the fact remains, it sticks around because it makes sense on a business level. The problem is, the princples on both sides are tossing business principles out the door because neither side wants to give. So us fans have been picking dogs in this fight, but it has been my contention that they better settle it soon, because the big dog has been eating their lunch for too damned long....

[indycool]

Mark, as NASCAR progressed (and in the case of Indy, the "500" and Brickyard progressed), almost ALL the ovals in this country added seats for NASCAR. The way it went through the '80s and '90s was that a track would add seats one year and raise ticket prices the next, then add seats again. This was no secret.

Now, ticket prices are pretty well topped out most places. I don't think there's been a raise for several years for the "500" OR the Brickyard. NASCAR is now filling very few places which built all of those seats previously.

TG wanted an ovalcentric series BECAUSE CART was leaving those and Indy is an oval. CART had disenfranchised American oval-track fans with its direction, something that was recouped briefly in the early split years when Jack Hewitt, Steve Kinser, Joe Gosek, Paul Durant, Davey Hamilton, Tony Stewart, Billy Boat and the like moved up to become Indy 500 veterans. Sadly, a lot of that has gone away again and that gap is there again.

TG has added a minimal number of road and street courses to diversify the IRL schedule. He brought F1 back to this country and spent millions to build them a road course at IMS. So that should appeal to road racing fans who aren't stuck in 1996. I'll bet they enjoy it at Mid-Ohio.

[Mark in Oshawa]

As for Tony getting all the cookies in the jar after CART's bankruptcy, well it really is simple to figure out. The Amigo's were not going to give the IMS their series on a plate for free when they had their money invested and the whole reason CART was knocked on its @ss was the expensive war for fans. Lets face it, Tony won the war based on having a lot more dough and having Toyota and Honda's money to help out, not by building a superior business model. If he had that business model, just tell me where the ratings are? Where are the clamouring demand for chassis to race in the IRL? IT is a better series now than it was in 2000, and it is light years better than 1996, but as someone who sat on the CART side of the fan divide, I know whatever comes out of the next few years as the "winner" will be the winner for the power to run all of OW, not a winner in any other sense. OW racing in North America with the CART series was a rival for F1 in the eyes of many fans, and the number of British fans of the series on the boards here says to me that fan attraction was seen as a threat by the FIA and Bernie. Oh well, that threat is gone now, and likely for good. Many Americans didn't like the international flavour of CART, but the fact remains you grow your product where it is wanted, and CART in the early 90s was wanted in ways the IRL or CCWS would give their right arms to have now.

Stop the spin, stop the BS, just admit that this split sucks and there should be a rational way to have a merger. But both sides have to give.....

[indycool]

Mark, The Amigos didn't have money invested in that series until they manipulated their way to buying it. CART didn't go bankrupt because of the fans. CART went bankrupt because it blew through $100 million war chest in one year to put a product on the track after Toyota and Honda and the teams left.

Again, it would've been one series if TG hadn't split it in 1996. And it would've been one series if The Amigos hadn't kept it split in bankruptcy court. Whether they'd been conditioned to hate Tony George or not is immaterial to those cold, hard facts.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, as NASCAR progressed (and in the case of Indy, the "500" and Brickyard progressed), almost ALL the ovals in this country added seats for NASCAR. The way it went through the '80s and '90s was that a track would add seats one year and raise ticket prices the next, then add seats again. This was no secret..

They added seats at the Brickyard for NASCAR, you are right. They didn't need to add them for the 500. Bubble day is gone, the big crowds for qualfying are not what they were....What is more, they are not selling the seats for the same value they were 20 years ago in today's dollars I bet either.


[/QUOTE=indycool;251564]
TG wanted an ovalcentric series BECAUSE CART was leaving those and Indy is an oval. CART had disenfranchised American oval-track fans with its direction, something that was recouped briefly in the early split years when Jack Hewitt, Steve Kinser, Joe Gosek, Paul Durant, Davey Hamilton, Tony Stewart, Billy Boat and the like moved up to become Indy 500 veterans. Sadly, a lot of that has gone away again and that gap is there again.

TG has added a minimal number of road and street courses to diversify the IRL schedule. He brought F1 back to this country and spent millions to build them a road course at IMS. So that should appeal to road racing fans who aren't stuck in 1996. I'll bet they enjoy it at Mid-Ohio.[/QUOTE]

Oh don't give Tony sainthood status for road racing fans because he built the USGP course. That was a business move and nothing more. He wanted the draw, and Bernie wanted to get back into the US market, since it was the one market where people see F1 for the sometimes boring show that it is.....

Tony is making money on the USGP, despite what it cost him to make the renovations to the speedway, but they were things he could gain from even if F1 left.

He is racing on the road courses now because the teams and drivers are demanding it, and because not all the ovals were drawing well. IF he wants 14 or 16 dates, he cant find that many ovals that want the IRL. Fontana dumped the IRL did they not? New Hampshire drew big draws when CART was there, and now no one is there but NASCAR. IRL does pretty well at most of the ovals they are at now, but without the road and street courses added, they would have too short a sched.

Listen, don't make Tony out as some sort of genius. He has made money for himself and the IMS, and he has done some nice things for the speedway, but this split was a bad idea and a bad thing. The 500 was NEVER going to leave the consciousness and importance it had with the teams and drivers. You say that, but Tony kicked them out before they could tell him they were not interested. The IRL 500's from 1996 to 1999 were just a JOKE. Ya, they had some guys like Billy Boat and Gosek and the like there, but they couldn't cut the mustard when the Penske and Ganassi boys started showing up again could they? Racing is a Darwinian process, and the creme will rise to the top if everything else is equal, and that counts in the case of teams as well. Tony did what he did because he wanted CONTROL of the series that raced at his track, and he didn't care what he had to do to get it. He didn't care what it would do to the sport and he certainly didn't do it so he could preserve road racing or the balance of venues in the AOWR series. He did it because he wanted it all, and CART wouldn't give it to him because they built it up to be a very successful and respected series around the world. The mismanagement of CART's later years likely wouldn't have happened if not for the constant tension and conflict in sponsors, rightsholders and fans caused by the creation of the IRL.

[Jonesi]

snip...Again, it would've been one series if TG hadn't split it in 1996. And it would've been one series if The Amigos hadn't kept it split in bankruptcy court. Whether they'd been conditioned to hate Tony George or not is immaterial to those cold, hard facts.

That's where you are wrong. Without The Amigos it may have taken awhile, but some series would have risen in CARTs place. The cars were there, the tracks wanted races, there were team owners who wanted to go racing without dealing with Tony George, and his actions have laid down so much fertilizer that something would grow, call it CanAm3 or F2.68T but something.

[beachbum]

If that darn Australian hadn't brought that silly rear engine car to Indy in '59, we might be watching front engine Silver Crown cars on ovals. Wait, front engine open wheel cars are STILL very popular on ovals - mostly dirt ovals.

It is what it is. Why it is, is irrelevant. The current two series have completely different business models and target audiences. If one or both has picked the right way to go, they will survive. If they didn't, they will parish along with many other great series of the past like Can-Am. Even if one or both fail, if there is a market for "big time" open wheel racing, something, or someone will fill the void. If not, a bunch of rich guys will have to take their toys and go play somewhere else.

This topic has been beat to death without resolution as there is no resolution. Neither side can agree on anything beyond the concept of high powered rear engine cars. Apples and pears. It would be like asking ALMS and Grand-Am to join together just because both are "sports car" series.

As one racing pundit pointed out very recently, motor racing is less about sport and more about entertainment. If you don't entertain the fan, they will find something else to do, regardless of the quality of the "sport" Right now, no open wheel series in the US is doing a very good entertainment job (Ok, WOO is doing a good job, but they faced a split too).

[beachbum]

If that darn Australian hadn't brought that silly rear engine car to Indy in '59, we might be watching front engine Silver Crown cars on ovals. Wait, front engine open wheel cars are STILL very popular on ovals - mostly dirt ovals.

It is what it is. Why it is, is irrelevant. The current two series have completely different business models and target audiences. If one or both has picked the right way to go, they will survive. If they didn't, they will parish along with many other great series of the past like Can-Am. Even if one or both fail, if there is a market for "big time" open wheel racing, something, or someone will fill the void. If not, a bunch of rich guys will have to take their toys and go play somewhere else.

This topic has been beat to death without resolution as there is no resolution. Neither side can agree on anything beyond the concept of high powered rear engine cars. Apples and pears. It would be like asking ALMS and Grand-Am to join together just because both are "sports car" series.

As one racing pundit pointed out very recently, motor racing is less about sport and more about entertainment. If you don't entertain the fan, they will find something else to do, regardless of the quality of the "sport" Right now, no open wheel series in the US is doing a very good entertainment job (Ok, WOO is doing a good job, but they faced a split too).

[indycool]

Mark, I didn't give TG "sainthood status" for anything. And won't. I objectively pointed out what he had done in the road racing area. If you say he's making money on the USGP and that bothers you, then you have more access to his accountants than I do and it bothers you. No one else in this country either could afford it or step up and the F1 crowd is the SMALLEST of thge three events each year by far at Indy.

And they were adding seats well before the Brickyard 400 came about. As I pointed out, other tracks were, too, but the expansion at Indy stemmed from the Johncock-Mears finish of 1982 in the Indianapolis 500, long before the inaugural Brickyard 400 in 1994. In addition, they have a rotating upgrading plan for grandstands each year. And when an F1 comes along and wants pit suites, they lost about 3,500 Tower Terrace seats.

Jonesi, you're probably right. Another Can Am type series probably would've cropped up. But the Indy car series would have been one and one only.

[pits4me]

Well, Ferrari, guess you made yourself clear. But if George split the sport in '96, The Amigos split the sport in '04, because it would've been one series without them.

I believe that's your rosed-colored opinion IC. There may have been only one series but it would have been a very sad situation. Fans want a series where marquee events are treated somewhat equally. It has always been about Indy with TG and always will. Why should winning one race, the Indy 500 be more important than a driver and team that can win a championship based on 12 or more races?

There were far too many people involved in this sport that dreaded the idea of your beloved Tony George becoming the dictator of open wheel and driving it into the ground by forcing his logic on everyone.

You can argue until the cows come home but you have never ever provided proof that this individual has done anything significant towards the best interest of open wheel racing in North America. To the contrary, he has done more to undermine it. Whether 1996, 2004 or every year between and after.

The days of open wheel are indeed numbered. We all agree it needs fixing and many agree who shouldn't be running it. That leaves owners like Andretti, Coyne, Figge, Forsythe, Ganassi, Haas/Lanigan, Kalhoven, Stoddart, Vasser, Walker/Gore, and a few others to revisit the issues noted on Gurney's white paper and come up with a solution THAT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF A SECONDARY OPEN WHEEL RACING MARKET that fills the void F1, ChampCar and the IRL fail to satisfy.

[indycool]

pits4, it is obvious to me that you would consider it a sad situation simply because you don't like TG. Far too many people who distrusted TG? There are four car owners in CC who were with CART -- Forsythe, Newman-Haas, Coyne and Walker. Forsythe lost $30 million in MPH stock. Haas is in a partnership with Lanigan and Mari Hulman George to field Kyle Krisiloff in the Busch Series and has returned to Indy recently with his team for the "500." Walker, who is now being funded in partnership with Gore, said running Indy is "tempting." That leaves Coyne, who WAS a partner with IMS and ISC in building Chicagoland.

CART was a car owners' organization before it went public. Other than the total mystery why Forsythe hates and throws good money after bad, the rest of the car owners are Johnny-come-latelys who have been CONDITIONED just to hate TG for whatever reason. "Too many people" (in CART) DREADED it? Three, now four, put money up, and maybe it WAS emotion rather than reason. Nobody else would touch it as a loser despite the efforts of Bear, Stearns in seeking a buyer for CART.

You want your open-wheel championship one way. The next poster wants it a little different. And the next, etc. So you've decided you don't like the Indianapolis 500? Tough. They're going to run it anyway. And open-wheel racing in this country is NOT on the endangered species list just because CC is having a tough time right now even getting a schedule straight for this year. CC supporters tend to speak in terms of "all open wheel racing" for their problems and try to include the IRL in those problems. Sounds big. Ain't true.

P.S. -- I do not have a "beloved Tony George." But if you want to line me up with Julia Roberts........

[pits4me]

The CART version of OW racing in North America and maybe some other places in the world. I'm not totally convinced that Bernie wasn't taking a look over his shoulder every once in a while to see if it was sneaking up on him too.

Especially when the European media train followed Nigel Mansell over here. An alternative to F1 was getting more attention than Bernie reportedly could tolerate.

[pits4me]

Apples and oranges. Of course NASCAR had more races and attendance. When you're running 30 some odd races a year instead of 16 or so. OW cars do not lend themselves to running week after week after week for a season. The only valid comparison is F1. Not to mention that your post which I was replying to clearly said "open wheel".

CART drew as good crowds, or better, on an event for event basis for many years. Michigan, Fontana, Pocono and we all know CART packed Indy (can't compare the road/street events since NASCAR mostly didn't go there). And don't give me the "the 500 was never a CART race" stuff. Technically you would be right, but for all practical purposes it was part of the CART schedule and their teams and drivers were the real headliners, not to mention a VERY large part of the field. Nowadays the Brickyard is the bid draw at Indy - slight come down, hmm?

Well stated Starter.

[pits4me]

pits4, it is obvious to me that you would consider it a sad situation simply because you don't like TG. Far too many people who distrusted TG? There are four car owners in CC who were with CART -- Forsythe, Newman-Haas, Coyne and Walker. Forsythe lost $30 million in MPH stock. Haas is in a partnership with Lanigan and Mari Hulman George to field Kyle Krisiloff in the Busch Series and has returned to Indy recently with his team for the "500." Walker, who is now being funded in partnership with Gore, said running Indy is "tempting." That leaves Coyne, who WAS a partner with IMS and ISC in building Chicagoland.

CART was a car owners' organization before it went public. Other than the total mystery why Forsythe hates and throws good money after bad, the rest of the car owners are Johnny-come-latelys who have been CONDITIONED just to hate TG for whatever reason. "Too many people" (in CART) DREADED it? Three, now four, put money up, and maybe it WAS emotion rather than reason. Nobody else would touch it as a loser despite the efforts of Bear, Stearns in seeking a buyer for CART.

You want your open-wheel championship one way. The next poster wants it a little different. And the next, etc. So you've decided you don't like the Indianapolis 500? Tough. They're going to run it anyway. And open-wheel racing in this country is NOT on the endangered species list just because CC is having a tough time right now even getting a schedule straight for this year. CC supporters tend to speak in terms of "all open wheel racing" for their problems and try to include the IRL in those problems. Sounds big. Ain't true.

P.S. -- I do not have a "beloved Tony George." But if you want to line me up with Julia Roberts........

Recycled spin. We've heard it all before and the only thing different now is the CART team owners you despised so much now seem to have controlling interest in the IRL. Sure they had to compensated to leave CART but without them, the IRL would be like it was in 1996-98, nothing but a bush league.

Fact: I don't like what Tony George did to Open Wheel racing in North America. He selfishly destroyed it!

Fact: I never liked the concept of an Indy-centric series. The Borg Warner should never be regarded as more important than either the Vanderbilt or a WDC. More selfish motivation!

Fact: Gerry Forsythe's passion for open wheel racing is 2nd to none. It has been that way since 1993. Even when Barry Green left in 1995 (and took JV with him) to form Team Kool Green, and open wheel needed strategic direction, Forsythe was the person who championed it.

Forsythe was the one primarilry responsible for growing the Player Driver Development program and building a fragmented support series into a structured ladder system. His drivers included Jacques Villeneuve, Greg Moore, Claude Bourdonnais, David Empringham, Lee Bentham, Bertrand Godin, Alex Tagliani, Patrick Carpentier, etc.

Forsythe was (and still is) instrumental in developing many careers in motorsport.

And you question his dedication and personal contribution to its survival? When it comes to the muti-millions TG is spending, that's different?

Bottom line here is one businessman is acting in the best interest of racing, the other in the best interest of the track he inherited.

[indycool]

FACT: You'll just hate TG till the end of time. If that floats your boat, so be it.

OPINION STATED AS FACT: You don't like Indy to be the centerpiece of a series, even though if there wasn't an Indy, there never would've been a USAC, CART, IRL or CC. Fine, you want the series different. Everybody else does, too. But everybody has their own different idea of what they want it to be. But if your CC guys don't want to run in the world's most famous race for a $10 million purse, so be it.

OPINION STATED AS FACT: Forsythe's passion for the sport is second to none. I'm sure others differ in different ways, but no one is more passionate about the sport than Penske, IMO, or Patrick (when he was fielding a team and helped to found CART in the first place). Or George, whose family going back to his grandfather have been stewards of a National Historic Landmark and the world's largest seating facility that you don't like because it's too big.

[Bob Riebe]

Recycled spin. We've heard it all before and the only thing different now is the CART team owners you despised so much now seem to have controlling interest in the IRL. Sure they had to compensated to leave CART but without them, the IRL would be like it was in 1996-98, nothing but a bush league.

That would make CART, that fell apart, even lower in rank that the IRL.


Fact: I don't like what Tony George did to Open Wheel racing in North America. He selfishly destroyed it!
The only thing George is destroying is his own league and the appeal of the Indy 500.
The death of open wheel racing was in full swing by the late eighties, USAC, CART, and now GEORGE are equally guilty.( CC is the equivalent of a zit on a gnat arse.)

[weeflyonthewall]

The only thing George is destroying is his own league and the appeal of the Indy 500.

Industry low sponsorships hurts everyone in racing.

[indycool]

Well, guys, heard someone say ths once: Chicken Little didn't get famous for saying the sky was going to stay up.

[pits4me]

OPINION STATED AS FACT: Forsythe's passion for the sport is second to none. I'm sure others differ in different ways, but no one is more passionate about the sport than Penske, IMO, or Patrick (when he was fielding a team and helped to found CART in the first place). Or George, whose family going back to his grandfather have been stewards of a National Historic Landmark and the world's largest seating facility that you don't like because it's too big.

Here you go twisting my words again to your convenience.
I said "Gerry Forsythe's passion for open wheel racing is 2nd to none." and that's in the present tense.

Yes Penske is up there as far as being passionate but that would apply to ALL motorsport. Heck he's owned tracks, has NASCAR teams, an IRL team, and Porcshe ALMS, but when it comes to open wheel, did he campaign in a development series like Indy Lights or Atlantics during his CART days?

Did RP approach Marlboro when they were in his pocket and start a Marlboro American driver development program -- NO. But Team KOOL Green's Barry Green did just that with the Kool Driver Academy. They even ran a KOOL car in Indy lights.

Historically, Roger does what 's good for Roger, not what might be in the best interest of Open-Wheel racing. Too bad. He's a great team owner. Remember when he despised the split and TG. If it hadn't been for the Toyota money, would he still be in CC. Who knows? If he had the same passion for open wheel as Gerry Forsythe, a merger would have already happened IMO. Within the IRL he is in a position of strength, especially if he rallied support from some of the other former CART team owners.

As for the Hulman George family, Indy is to US based open wheel as the Yankees or Red Sox are to Baseball. Fortunately neither baseball organization went off and started a rival league to suit selfish interest.

[indycool]

Penske's passion for open-wheel racing has caused him to co-found CART, to win more than any other car owner, to bring drivers along like Rick Mears, who won six poles and four Indianapolis 500s, owned tracks and even let CART use Michigan for the ill-fated U.S. 500 when the split occurred.

Are you saying that Gerry Forsythe wants a merger with his passion? If you are, that's the first I've heard it. Last quote I heard from him was he'd go to Indy if he got free cars, free engines and Penske's setups.

And, yes, the Hulman-George family started a series long before this. When AAA pulled out of racing in the '50s, Tony Hulman helped to found USAC to sanction races. The family, going back to the late Mr. Hulman, poured profits back into the Indianapolis Motor Speedway consistently and do today, with things like SAFER barriers, new pagodas, a redone championship golf course, and on and on. And Tony George brought the Brickyard 400 and Formula One to the Speedway and U.S., respectively, and NOBODY had taken the plunge on an F1 race for years because it was totally unaffordable in this country.

[CCFan]

Penske's passion for open-wheel racing has caused him to co-found CART, to win more than any other car owner, to bring drivers along like Rick Mears, who won six poles and four Indianapolis 500s, owned tracks and even let CART use Michigan for the ill-fated U.S. 500 when the split occurred.

Are you saying that Gerry Forsythe wants a merger with his passion? If you are, that's the first I've heard it. Last quote I heard from him was he'd go to Indy if he got free cars, free engines and Penske's setups.

And, yes, the Hulman-George family started a series long before this. When AAA pulled out of racing in the '50s, Tony Hulman helped to found USAC to sanction races. The family, going back to the late Mr. Hulman, poured profits back into the Indianapolis Motor Speedway consistently and do today, with things like SAFER barriers, new pagodas, a redone championship golf course, and on and on. And Tony George brought the Brickyard 400 and Formula One to the Speedway and U.S., respectively, and NOBODY had taken the plunge on an F1 race for years because it was totally unaffordable in this country.

TG brought NASCAR & F1 to the speedway because he needed the money. The I500 was riding high all by itself until TG split the league.

After it was pointed out to him that the I500 was losing luster because CART was no longer there, he allowed two other race series (which had never done anything beneficial for him) onto the hallowed ground.

And they've since proceeded to steal the pride & attention that used to belong to the I500.

[indycool]

That's baloney for several reasons:

1. The inaugural Brickyard 400 was in 1994, two years before the split.

2. The F1 crowfd is by far the SMALLEST of the three events.

There's plenty more, but that's enough.

[weeflyonthewall]

TG brought NASCAR & F1 to the speedway because he needed the money. The I500 was riding high all by itself until TG split the league.

After it was pointed out to him that the I500 was losing luster because CART was no longer there, he allowed two other race series (which had never done anything beneficial for him) onto the hallowed ground.

And they've since proceeded to steal the pride & attention that used to belong to the I500.

And the Daytona 500 surpasses Indy as the premier racing event in North America. Go figure.


That's baloney for several reasons:

1. The inaugural Brickyard 400 was in 1994, two years before the split.

2. The F1 crowfd is by far the SMALLEST of the three events.

There's plenty more, but that's enough.

Without the Brickyard 400, NASCAR's financial support, Eccelstone's encouragement, the split may have never happened in the first place. From a business sense maybe the three events combined are better than just one "special" 500 miler on Memorial weekend.

[CCFan]

That's baloney for several reasons:

1. The inaugural Brickyard 400 was in 1994, two years before the split.

2. The F1 crowfd is by far the SMALLEST of the three events.

There's plenty more, but that's enough.

Which goes to prove that NASCAR was putting a bug in TG's ear early on.

My point was that the I500 had easily been a stand-alone event for decades. Now it's no longer the leading event at the speedway. NASCAR's event leads the way.

If you & TG think that's okay, then it's okay with me too.

[Wilf]

The two day attendance figures are larger than the month of May. Maybe Cart was right, the Indy 500 should be a two day show.

[indycool]

It doesn't go to prove anything of the kind as far as NASCAR goes. There was a NASCAR race at Indy being considered as early as 1980, when John Cooper was president of IMS.

The Indianapolis 500 still exceeds the Brickyard 400 in attendance, as much as a "CC Fan" might not want that to be true. There are no general admission tickets sold for the Brickyard 400. There are for the "500." Besides, in the true spirit of the infamous three-day attendance totals, cars are on the track and admission is charged for 15 days in May.

And if there was no "500," there would not be a 400 or F1 race because there would have been no Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

Needing the money? Get real. The Hulman Co. is more than just those three races. Does the Brickyard 400 bring in additional money? Sure. Does the F1 race? I don't know where that stands in relation to the expense of building a road course for it.

[CCFan]

...And if there was no "500," there would not be a 400 or F1 race because there would have been no Indianapolis Motor Speedway...

What's the point of this statement? I never said that I didn't want the I500 to exist.

I was remarking about the reality that its stature has been diminished, by the very man that you would have thought would do everything in his power to prevent that. But then, TG being who he is...

[indycool]

It's been popular for 12 years for "CC Fan(s)" to put forth that the "500" has been "diminished" and act like it's fact. I don't enjoy it any less every year and 299,999 others don't seem to, either.

[CCFan]

It's been popular for 12 years for "CC Fan(s)" to put forth that the "500" has been "diminished" and act like it's fact. I don't enjoy it any less every year and 299,999 others don't seem to, either.

I didn't say that no one showed up for the I500. But I've seen reports of:
1) Empty seats where there used to be no empty seats,
2) The need to buy next year's race tickets right after this year's race no longer being necessary because you can now get good seats on the day of the race,
3) Ticket scalpers are out of business because you can buy grandstand seats for at, or below, face value on the day of the race.

Please don't ask me for a link to the articles that printed the above. Perhaps someone else can provide them. I didn't make them up. I read them in motorsports journalists' articles and simply didn't keep them handy for a time like now.

[indycool]

1. There are empty seats in some places where there used to be no seats even built.

2. That seems to be partially true on a "guaranteed same seat" basis on renewals. Look at the stands on Race Day and you can't tell when they bought them.

3. You read at a lot of Robin Miller stuff in the early going of the split in the Indianapolis Star about scalpers taking baths. Indiana, incredibly, is one of the few states that permit ticket scalping. If they took a bath, poor babies. You also read about greedy hoteliers whining back then that they could only get $400 a night out of a $100 a night room instead of $600 so they were losing money. Again, poor babies.

[CCFan]

1. There are empty seats in some places where there used to be no seats even built.

2. That seems to be partially true on a "guaranteed same seat" basis on renewals. Look at the stands on Race Day and you can't tell when they bought them.

3. You read at a lot of Robin Miller stuff in the early going of the split in the Indianapolis Star about scalpers taking baths. Indiana, incredibly, is one of the few states that permit ticket scalping. If they took a bath, poor babies. You also read about greedy hoteliers whining back then that they could only get $400 a night out of a $100 a night room instead of $600 so they were losing money. Again, poor babies.

Again, my point on #3 was that in yesteryear, the next year's tickets were soon sold out shortly after this year's race. That's no longer the case & it supports my contention that I500's stature has diminished. It wasn't that anybody should feel sorry for scalpers.

[indycool]

Again, there are also more seats now. With the explosion of NASCAR and other racing on TV, many tracks that built more seats aren't selling out Cup events now.

You're still looking at 300,000 people. In the time I've lived in Indy, I've found a lot of smart people who have been ripped off by scalpers in the past who now "wait 'em out" and get tickets for "under face" just to beat a system that screwed them on the street for years. Fine. They showed up and watched the race. And it hasn't affected anything.

[pits4me]

What a bunch of regurgitated crap. I know shriners that made Indy an annual affair complete with pomp & circumstance, visits to local race shops, used to be a great package and hard to join the party. Now they struggle to fill the charter.

Put whatever spin you want on the Indy 500 Indycool, its been overshadowed by the Daytona 500.

And in case you missed the news, Cup is in a decline, more and more fans are showing up as empty seats in venues that did not expand. The very reason ISC has put a hold on Seattle and New York. Drivers and fans are also getting more vocal about the debris yellows and orchestrated finishes.

Let's hope TG doesn't bow to the same pressure and can keep Indy as one of open wheels sacred cows.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="pits4me"]

Put whatever spin you want on the Indy 500 Indycool, its been overshadowed by the Daytona 500. QUOTE]

In its glory days, the Daytona 500 did not come close to Indy, and now, even as Indy is misfiring, the Daytona 500 is becoming just another NASCAR race; overshadowed, in part, by the asinine "chase".

The 500 used to be the highlight of Speed Weeks, with everthing from sports cars to formula bikes.
Speed Weeks is somewhere between comatose and dead, and the 500's stature has deteriorated with it.

[Jonesi]

And in case you missed the news, Cup is in a decline, more and more fans are showing up as empty seats in venues that did not expand. The very reason ISC has put a hold on Seattle and New York. Drivers and fans are also getting more vocal about the debris yellows and orchestrated finishes.

That's not the reason those tracks won't be built. New Jersey has a major hazardous waste issue on the site, Wash was a bad deal for the taxpayers.

[Jag_Warrior]

It's been popular for 12 years for "CC Fan(s)" to put forth that the "500" has been "diminished" and act like it's fact. I don't enjoy it any less every year and 299,999 others don't seem to, either.

To be fair to everyone, it seems it would be important to define "diminished" in the proper context. And if connecting that term to objective data, one would probably want to look at categories that can be measured: TV ratings, attendance, maybe even ticket prices or demand.

There is no way that I know of to objectively measure "enjoyment". And to be fair to you and other IRL fans, just because the objective data points to a decline in Indy's overall popularity in the U.S., that doesn't mean that you shouldn't be allowed to enjoy it. So the FACT is, many people still enjoy the Indy 500. And the FACT is, its popularity in the U.S. is down considerably since the spilt, a decade plus gone by.

[Jag_Warrior]

FACT: You'll just hate TG till the end of time. If that floats your boat, so be it.

OPINION STATED AS FACT: You don't like Indy to be the centerpiece of a series, even though if there wasn't an Indy, there never would've been a USAC, CART, IRL or CC. Fine, you want the series different. Everybody else does, too. But everybody has their own different idea of what they want it to be. But if your CC guys don't want to run in the world's most famous race for a $10 million purse, so be it.

OPINION STATED AS FACT: Forsythe's passion for the sport is second to none. I'm sure others differ in different ways, but no one is more passionate about the sport than Penske, IMO, or Patrick (when he was fielding a team and helped to found CART in the first place). Or George, whose family going back to his grandfather have been stewards of a National Historic Landmark and the world's largest seating facility that you don't like because it's too big.

Actually, your "FACT" is also opinion stated as fact. ;)

[indycool]

Yep, Jag, you're right on that one! :)

[Jag_Warrior]

Whether it's an IRL board or a CCWS board, what strikes me as sad these days is that we should be arguing and debating about... RACING! My driver is gold and your driver sucks. The engine brand in my team's car is going to kick the stuffings out of the engine brand in your team's car. You know... like the NASCAR and F1 boards. For that matter, even NHRA boards tend to talk more about the actual racing, and less about the politics of racing.

But here we are, CCWS fans on another board trying to rationalize that pay drivers actually aren't so bad and TV ratings aren't relevant. IRL fans here and other places trying to overlook Indy's ratings plunge and its failure to get enough actual entries (without paying someone to show up). The current state of AOWR is that in order for things to look (somewhat) good, a spin has to be applied to the ball that would make Dr. J. go, Wow! :eek:

[treppil]

Instead of this constant rehash of the past why dont we try to go forward and suggest a solution to end the split. If you are waiting for one series to fail you could be here for a long time.
Why not have two championships, one for oval races run by TG & Co and one for the other races run by KK & Co. Each series would have its own champion and an overall champion. I would suggest to use the 2.6 turbo for both as it is easier to tune the horsepower to suit the track. Use different bodywork for each series to show the difference. Low budget teams could concentrate on one series.
Indycool this is your thread, how about your suggestion?

[indycool]

treppil, I don't HAVE a solution to it. IMO, there are no magic wands on this one.

[nigelred5]

Treppil, virtually that exact scenario and everything in between has been proposed to no avail. until TG makes some sort of concession or dies, it will never happen. It's his way or the highway if you want to race at Indy. CART adopted the IRL formula, he essentially prohibited teams from competing in his series if the package was used in any other series. The month of May has been left open several times for CART teams to compete. They did, and most eventually migrated over to his series for various reasons. Straight mergers have been proposed, he wants nothing less than 100% control. He moves the hoop more than a circuis trainer. As long as he has that track, he'll have the money to support the IRL and keep The CC faction at bay through any means he feels necessary.

What was the motto, "Join or Die"? Pretty much sums it up.

It's his yard and it's paved with bricks. The health of the grass is irrelevant to him.

[nigelred5]

Which came first?

Target has been Ganassi's primary sponsor in open wheel first in CART and now the IRL since 1990.
Ganassi has only been in NASCAR since buying into Felix Sabate's NASCAR team in 2000.

[indycool]

nigel, not to start an argument about the past, but it takes two to tango and there were grenades hanging from every CART "olive branch."

[treppil]

Inycool perhaps you could explain what some of those "grenades" were.

[indycool]

Each one that I recall had its own little twist -- nearly all would've required changing some rules or allowing them to break USAC/IRL rules in some form, as I recall. The particular one going around right now is that KK asked for free engines as part of a general conversation (not nearly a "proposal") about some CC drivers (teams?) coming to Indy.

[treppil]

Sorry Indycool but that does not even begin to explain your statement that "there were grenades hanging from every CART olive branch" (I am sure you meant Champcar ) I have no inside information and nothing published so far would lead me to your conclusion so please provide some proof or links.

[indycool]

treppil, this goes back to the CART days. There were several attempts for CART to come CLOSE to the IRL formula and specs to run Indy but was never to USAC/IRL specs.

There was the so-called "Pebble Beach Accord" in '96 between Penske and TG that would've increased the field, when CART teams HAD legal cars from the previous season that was not even voted on by the CART board.

When I say "grenades attached," I mean that CART, and now CC's approach asking for free engines, has always asked for some kind of advantage or some difference from the rules for Indy. In this case, if TG gave CC some free engines, how could he look at his IRL regulars who PAY for them in the eye? No way. Feeble manipulation attempt by KK, thus "attached grenade."

[treppil]

Inycool, you are still only giving us hearsay and conjecture on your part. As you said in a previous post only those people who were directly involved in those negotiations can know what was said. Anything else is pure speculation on our part. This split will end. It is only a question of how it will end. The people who will decide the fate of our sport are the fans and they are making it clear that what we have now is not what they want. So how do we go forward and get away from this mess?

[indycool]

treppil, I'm giving you what I can find. You want to go back to all the April talk each year Pook was in charge and pick up and pay for Indianapolis Star archives on each one, go ahead. I really don't have time. I cited the current example and there are Robin Miller's columns at Speedtv.com and tons of opinion on it all over the boards.

The fans decide it by showing up at tracks or watching on TV. The big kids make their moves. Both TG, a couple months ago, said "no merger." KK has since said "no merger." The Indianapolis 500 is coming and it will have fans at the track and watching on TV. What more can I tell you?

[nigelred5]

I'm not one to buy into the feeling that the CCWS folks should bend over and take it up the backside just because TG's family owns IMS and threw a temper tantrum over 10 years ago. Honestly, what over 70% of those that denied him input are now racing under his banner.
At this point, the remaining CCWS side has lost a great deal of position, but they still have enough that they deserve a part in the action in a combined series should that ever happen.

[treppil]

Indycool, I'm only asking for the same level of proof that you would require of any other poster. Lets make this easy. Do you have any link from after the Champcar takeover that merger negotiations failed because of "thorns" or "grenades" in champcars offers.

[indycool]

Reminder taken.

[Indy500'79]

I'm not jumping off any bridges because Tristan Gommendy won't be there.

ouch

[weeflyonthewall]

nigel, not to start an argument about the past, but it takes two to tango and there were grenades hanging from every CART "olive branch."

Always stated as FACT in your humble opinion.

[weeflyonthewall]

treppil, I'm giving you what I can find. You want to go back to all the April talk each year Pook was in charge and pick up and pay for Indianapolis Star archives on each one, go ahead. I really don't have time. I cited the current example and there are Robin Miller's columns at Speedtv.com and tons of opinion on it all over the boards.

The fans decide it by showing up at tracks or watching on TV. The big kids make their moves. Both TG, a couple months ago, said "no merger." KK has since said "no merger." The Indianapolis 500 is coming and it will have fans at the track and watching on TV. What more can I tell you?

Since when did you give Miller such honorable mention. He used to be a Shill in your book. Hmmmmmm. Is Curt Cavin any better?

[weeflyonthewall]

I'd like to remind everyone that this is not the "history" forum (not that there is one ;) ). This one is for talking about today's IRL and with the 500 coming up I would think there is much to discuss about the racing.

This thread is entitled No merger now: TG
What contribution would you seriously expect for open wheel fans? It always comes down to the same old IRL vs CC hash every May. The difference this year is Robin gets to stir things up much differently than in prior years. The fact everything is on the same network is encouraging.