Thread closing and reasons for it

[monadvspec]

I started a thread recently about firearms in the US. It was closed by the moderator I believes controls the forum.
I must admit that it was valid to close as there was no sense in continuing because of the lack of civility. I will be a man and state that I was sucked into the base ignorance often exhibited on this particular forum. For that and the other posters who show a decorum that should be present in these debates I apologize. However, I have seen the and easily identified how and why these threads fall apart. I have been coming to this forum for years and pay a subscription fee to the main site.

It is only recently that I have been posting as I have read many threads and did not bother to participate for one reason or another.
There are problems that I would hope the "owner" or the person designated as such would take into account.
I have seen threads started and fall apart, people expressing an opinion banned and people that have been confrontational and always vocal in their opinion still staying around.
I have seen moderators expressing opinions on threads and editing posts to suit their point of view and ignoring more egregious posts always it seems initiated by the same member.
On the guns thread, there is an easily identified poster and moderator that have been constantly instigating a form of politicization of threads and causing issues and bickering. Always, the same poster is at the very heart of these confrontations and the same moderator chooses to ignore him, but, will edit, sanitize posts, or, will ban completely a poster who is responding in kind.
why is one person banned for using the easily identified # as a form of camouflaging words that are inappropriate for the forum and accepted by the moderator for the vast number of posters as being fine to use but once again, the moderator chooses to ban or edit others that use the exact same identical sign or substitute for a letter.
Where I am live and through life experience I see that the divide is pretty easily identified.
Those of us with a liberal viewpoint or should I be forced to use the word progressive as a substitute, are the one's that are banned or will have their opinion edited by one moderator while a consecrative point of view is allowed.
Europeans are more open minded in my opinion and to identify one as being liberal or conservative is often harder to identify. Not everything in Europe is black and white. People have open minds and the politics of people is harder to identify.
On this particular forum I have found it much easier to see that in the US there is a clear divide and there is a starkly defined and vitriolic hatred exhibited by certain confrontational groups and in the case of these forums one or two that I will not name but will conclude that it is obvious to most of the members.
Threads should not be forced to close and an even hand in the moderating should be used. Moderators who choose to insert their opinion into a thread should automatically loose their right to moderate the thread. They are expressing an opinion and will edit or ban when they choose. Always someone they disagree with.

[monadvspec]

The main site?? This is it, isn't it?? Its free for me :D
I come through a subsciption site.
Please excuse the errors grammatical and spelling. I tried to fix them but was not allowed.

[Eki]

debates between cultures that are never going to get each other.
Without debates it's guaranteed they are never going to get each other. With debates there is at least a chance they'll get closer to each other. It's better to fight with words than with bullets. And if there will be a war, I'm sure it's more difficult to kill somebody who you've met before (even on the internet) than somebody you've never met.

[race aficionado]

I echo Eki's comment.

The reason I continue coming to our forum is precisely because I can have some very interesting, sometimes educational and yes, sometimes very heated debates with other forum members from around the world.
For me this experience is like no other, as a matter of fact, I find it a privilege to be able to do so.

That said, it is of prime importance that our points of view, that may be different to others, not be rammed into our throats nor our opinions be considered a threat to other peoples lives.

I am a believer of unity through diversity - how wonderful that many of us are different - and how wonderful it would be if we can respect each other's differences by just accepting the fact that we believe differently and that by the same token, that we be respected too.

And yes, I am one of the forum's idealists, dreamer and yes, a #@!* according to some. :D

peace

dammit!

:s mokin:

[Eki]

I am a believer of unity through diversity - how wonderful that many of us are different - and how wonderful it would be if we can respect each other's differences by just accepting the fact that we believe differently and that by the same token, that we be respected too.

True. For example, I don't dislike people like Roamy, anthonyvop, Garry Walker or Bob Riebe, just because I don't agree with them. Actually, I find it refreshing to hear their opinions. I believe it's important that people have an opportunity to voice their views.

[monadvspec]

True. For example, I don't dislike people like Roamy, anthonyvop, Garry Walker or Bob Riebe, just because I don't agree with them. Actually, I find it refreshing to hear their opinions. I believe it's important that people have an opportunity to voice their views.
It is good to see opinions and have diversity. With it moderators should keep their nose out of the comments. Why have people like Gluaist??? been banned, my comments edited and another's and then we are left with Riebe who does nothing but whine, moan call names and his comments never get edited and he is obviously, not banned?

[Mark]

Moderators are entitled to their opinions they are just forum members at the end of the day.

I totally agree about the political threads here and if threads are started on certain topics I will know with certainty that some will start hurling insults, some will hurl some back, others will accuse me of bias WHATEVER action I take and everyone will be upset.

How to solve this? Ban those threads, maybe? But then I read other forums with those types of thread and they work ok, but then mostly with people from only one country. Or dish out points; well certainly. Only trouble with that is whenever I give ANYONE points I AWLAYS get a PM accusing me of bias. Plus ca change!

[EuroTroll]

I think banning political threads would be a bit extreme, as they're usually informative, interesting, and fun.

I think we should carry on as we have: allow those threads, give members who hurl insults a slap on the wrist, and close the thread once it gets too much.

Being a moderator is a thankless job, as we know, and I definitely think this forum is generally well moderated. I also think that particular case Monadvspec is referring to, involving Starter, is really a non-issue. Some post got modified, others didn't -- so what? If you don't want your posts modified, be polite. It's as easy as that.

I don't think we have a problem.

[Mark]

I'd also like to add. Please use the reported posts function, we don't always get back to you on what happened, but they are read.

[EuroTroll]

Can we just ban threads that talk about gun ownership? [...] This just seems to be the one discussion that starts here over and over and exactly the same debate continues again and again.

I really don't understand what's wrong with that. Many topics of discussion come up again and again. That just means people care about them and want to discuss. Why ban? It's an obvious and possibly lame thing to say, but you can always not read the threads you're not interested in, can't you..

[Mark]

There's arguments for both. Yes we can let them run and close if they become a problem, but it usually means a lot of work for myself and the moderators and a lot of upset and more often members deciding they don't want to post any more.

Or just close from the get go and avoid all the grief and then get stung for stifling debate.

[Mark]

Fair point. Perhaps we need better procedures. However much of the time myself and other mods are catching up in a spare 30 seconds so we don't always have the time.

[Mark]

But there's also the point that if two members are being insulting to each other they are often both deserving of points. Even if they are the ones using the reported posts function. This is how Daniel ended up leaving.

[airshifter]

Mark,

Just a suggestion that may work for some of the forums. I'm not sure how many issues you have in all the forums as I usually just read the F1 and Chit Chat sections, but I know both of them get heated at times.

Many years ago a forum I frequented went to using "anonymous" forum moderators. They were dealing with the same accusations of bias that are happening here, and IMO just as unwarranted. It seemed that going to anonymous moderators stopped that, the problem being that people took it personally when warned or given a vacation.

It also allowed the moderators to go about their normal activities on the forum without hearing a bunch of crap that they were biased due to their personal position on things. They even appointed moderators "behind the scenes" so in several cases nobody had any idea who the moderators were.



I'd like to think that as adults we could discuss any topic and remain reasonable and civil. Maybe as a forum we should help the moderators and become more self policing? I would personally have no problem with someone calling me out if they felt I had violated any forum rules or if they thought I was intentionally insulted someone. If we started banning certain topics, my gut instinct is that certain members would find a reason to argue about something else and start hurling insults regardless. ;)

[slorydn1]

Mark,

Just a suggestion that may work for some of the forums. I'm not sure how many issues you have in all the forums as I usually just read the F1 and Chit Chat sections, but I know both of them get heated at times.

Many years ago a forum I frequented went to using "anonymous" forum moderators. They were dealing with the same accusations of bias that are happening here, and IMO just as unwarranted. It seemed that going to anonymous moderators stopped that, the problem being that people took it personally when warned or given a vacation.

It also allowed the moderators to go about their normal activities on the forum without hearing a bunch of crap that they were biased due to their personal position on things. They even appointed moderators "behind the scenes" so in several cases nobody had any idea who the moderators were.



I'd like to think that as adults we could discuss any topic and remain reasonable and civil. Maybe as a forum we should help the moderators and become more self policing? I would personally have no problem with someone calling me out if they felt I had violated any forum rules or if they thought I was intentionally insulted someone. If we started banning certain topics, my gut instinct is that certain members would find a reason to argue about something else and start hurling insults regardless. ;)


Although I agree with your premise, and I appreciate the fact that you are looking out for us, I don't believe that would be such a great idea, in the long run i don't think the silent assassin model would work out for us.

I am thinking back to when I was just a member and the crew we had moderating back then. Some are still moderators today and are top notch, some, well, I'm not so sure I'd want to post something then get a message that I got points, or even ban and not know where it came from.

Keep this in mind. I could ban anyone I want to, at anytime, silently, and not even Mark would know it without going to look for it. And why would he go look unless the banned poster sent him a message wanting to know why he was banned. When he did go look, who would he come see to find out why the person was banned? Was it justified? Etc etc etc.

Not long after I first came here I got banned by a so called admin person who only had the level of authority he did because of the website he runs/ran (not sure if his site is even still in operation, I stopped caring when they started charging to read info I could readily obtain other places). Anyway what happened was we were having a spirited debate about something that happened in a particular Nascar race and he didn't like the way the thread was going (his fave was the topic of discussion). He started getting particularly ugly with a few members and you know what ALWAYS happens when one person starts throwing out a bunch of manure, it starts coming back his way. Keep in mind that he had NO tag by his name or in his profile that denoted that he was any more powerful than any other poster. All of a sudden I (and several others) found ourselves banned. Our moderator finally had to step in (along with Mark) and we all got unbanned forthwith, but it was ridiculous. So no, I am not in favor of moderators being anonymous.

Often times things can be resolved easily when someone sends a mod a pm and a mod can go look into the situation without having to go the whole deal, and if y'all didn't know who we were then Mark and Pino would be getting flooded with messages from people (as if they aren't already) just wanting simple information.

As for the main topic of this thread, here is my .02:

We, as moderators, are members just like the rest of you, but with a bonus. We get to have deal with the adults who want to act like babies. Not complainin, just stating a fact. When Mark made me moderator, I didn't trade in my opinion, nor my right to post them. I do take moderating very seriously and I have felt the need to tone down my method of discussing things I didn't agree with so that people wouldn't think I was abusing my authority. That sucks sometimes, because there are times the rest of you would be in for a real treat if you knew what I was REALLY thinking on a certain matters. Y'all may very well disagree with me, but y'all would be laughing (either at me or with me).

I stay out of chit chat, for the most part. Why? Because if I was there regularly we'd have a lot less people still eligible to post as I'd have banned alot of them. This is coming from a mod that (not including the spamming autobots) has banned maybe 2 people since becoming a mod 2 years ago. Hell, I'd probably have to ban myself as mad as I get at some of the lunacy I see in there.

Sorry I got so long winded, but I guess I just had to get it out there.

[Mark]

I'm not sure hiding ourselves away is a good idea but indeed the reality is that a forum like this which doesn't have any paid staff at all pretty much must be self policing. There simply isn't the resources to hold peoples hands or settle petty disputes all day.

[race aficionado]

People should complain at least once . . . maybe twice . . . but please don't whine.

Then leave if your too pissed off and come later if you wish. *We are still waiting for Daniel to finally pop up again, it's in his DNA. :D

Bottom line is that we are not paying one cent to be here, we have our free will to participate . . . or not, and for people like me, that have made this forum a part of our lives, I say thank you Mark and Co. for making this public space possible.

So now I go back to other things that are important in my life: watch some footy (Go Barca!) and then check to see how long it takes for my man Juan Pablo to maybe probably do something good in todays NASCAR race.

:s mokin:

[janvanvurpa]

But there's also the point that if two members are being insulting to each other they are often both deserving of points. Even if they are the ones using the reported posts function. This is how Daniel ended up leaving.

The question is "How should one respond to a snarling, possibly rabid dog?" Are we really expected to respond to some of the more notorious people with all sweetness and kind words? And my Estonian friend Studiose, if you think of the viciousness of what many of the "usual suspects" comments mean, "kill them all' "make the whole place into a glass parking lot (the place the entire Mid-East" etc what they are saying is inherently offensive, not just to the millions they suggest liquidating, but to any normal human with any sense of empathy..
No words to a person suggesting these sort of things can possibly be too much, it is not "Pot, meet Kettle when one says "Kill millions" and somebody else says "You are insane"..

I was raised and still believe we should treat others as we would wish to be treated and I can only presume that those who in every post express their hate, their xenophobia, their racism, and in general their contempt for the opinions and the person of others MUST want to be treated that way themselves, indeed I would be crazy not to.

In this last thread there was talk of the victims of gun violence, and the OP did not turn that thread into one more tired rant about "MY RIGHTs!!!!"

The heavily biased moderator Starter made numerous comments implying contempt and insults and about "inability to reason" and, obviously not cognizant of the callousness of what he was saying brushed off the death of innocent gun victims with "there'll always be accidents, you can't cure stupid"..
Starter equated being killed by a madman with "accident" and can't cure stupid"..

Are we supposed to respond to such callousness politely?

Shirley, you can't be serious.

[BDunnell]

The poster below has accused me of acting in a biased manner. I'd just like to clear a couple things up. It is true that I did delete two things from one of his posts. Both were obscenities which are against forum rules (and using **** in a word where the word is still easily recognizable is still not allowed).

I have on occasion done so and never been censured.

[slorydn1]

The question is "How should one respond to a snarling, possibly rabid dog?" Are we really expected to respond to some of the more notorious people with all sweetness and kind words? And my Estonian friend Studiose, if you think of the viciousness of what many of the "usual suspects" comments mean, "kill them all' "make the whole place into a glass parking lot (the place the entire Mid-East" etc what they are saying is inherently offensive, not just to the millions they suggest liquidating, but to any normal human with any sense of empathy..
No words to a person suggesting these sort of things can possibly be too much, it is not "Pot, meet Kettle when one says "Kill millions" and somebody else says "You are insane"..

I was raised and still believe we should treat others as we would wish to be treated and I can only presume that those who in every post express their hate, their xenophobia, their racism, and in general their contempt for the opinions and the person of others MUST want to be treated that way themselves, indeed I would be crazy not to.

In this last thread there was talk of the victims of gun violence, and the OP did not turn that thread into one more tired rant about "MY RIGHTs!!!!"

The heavily biased moderator Starter made numerous comments implying contempt and insults and about "inability to reason" and, obviously not cognizant of the callousness of what he was saying brushed off the death of innocent gun victims with "there'll always be accidents, you can't cure stupid"..
Starter equated being killed by a madman with "accident" and can't cure stupid"..

Are we supposed to respond to such callousness politely?

Shirley, you can't be serious.

I just went back through and read through the shootings thread again. I cant see the edits Starter made anymore but if he says they were insults than they were. Period. Case Closed.

So that only leaves the remaining posts and the only one I saw making implied insults was YOU.



Man, you guys never tire of repeating tired, worn out, platitudes with jack booted precision, do you?
Lett's be more precice;
Guns don't kill people, but they sure make it easier for PEOPLE to EASILY and RAPIDLY kill people, even insane people, even incompetent people, even drunk people GUNS MAKES IT EASIER for a stupid, drunk, insane, twisted WHIM to turn into a tragedy...

No if all the gun whack jobs would ONLY kill themselves when they get depressed or angry, then OK...

But for anybody to suggest there is not a deep and vast problems in USA with a murder rate 10 to 20 times most other civilised countries, shows the inability of many to reason..
And the use of cliches shows further disconnect from thinking...and a potential irrational person...

Let's see simplistic thinking, reliance on cliches, add firearms...... doesn't sound like a good mix to me.

Simplistic. Hmmm lets see. I am gun carrying citizen of the United States of America, the second ammendment gives me the RIGHT to do so (no rant, just fact). So now I am simplistic (I take that to mean "simple minded" which is a euphemism for "dumb" or "stupid."

I won't even go there about terms like "whack jobs" (since I really don't believe you were calling people like me, so therefore me a whack job) and how people who have to repeat "cliches" because they other people don't listen before going off on a tangent of their own means that they are somehow disconnected or in your words "irrational".

SO lets set aside that I completely disagree with you on the argument. In just 1 post you have managed to insult me (in your defense- without knowing it) several times over.

Yet you're going to come here and whine about an "implied insult" when some one uses the term "lets look at reality" in their post. REALLY!?!?!?!?!?!?!? <Slo scratches his head>


And please, don't call me Shirley.... :p

[Camelopard]

I used to post in chit chat a lot and I enjoyed some of the discussions that I had, but the actions of a few xenophobic, right wing, red necks started making the experience very unpleasant. Coincidently that was about the same time that a certain person started posting regularly in chit chat. It seems to me that their posts never get edited, nor do they get sanctioned, so therefore it would seem that they have the support of certain moderators.

I told mark that I would love to be a moderator, maybe my perceived bias could even things out a bit.

Same thing with the rallying section, one obnoxious poster insists on making it an unpleasant place to be, so I just read and not post, giving the odd 'like' here and there. He is on 'ignore' but the problem is that others unfortunately quote him. He previously has threatened to leave and has done so, unfortunately he keeps coming back!


If anyone wants a refreshing change, I can suggest 'Piston Heads'.


P.S., where is Markabilly? At least he has a sense of humour and could take a joke and have a laugh!

[janvanvurpa]

I just went back through and read through the shootings thread again. I cant see the edits Starter made anymore but if he says they were insults than they were. Period. Case Closed.

So that only leaves the remaining posts and the only one I saw making implied insults was YOU.

Bull####,* you wade into something and cut and paste only whaty you want... Another Moderator who cannot understand language...






Simplistic. Hmmm lets see. I am gun carrying citizen of the United States of America, the second ammendment gives me the RIGHT to do so (no rant, just fact). So now I am simplistic (I take that to mean "simple minded" which is a euphemism for "dumb" or "stupid."

You, Moderator are looking to find offense.. Demerits for you acting offended.
The stuff written was in response virtually line by line to Starter..
And is IN RESPONSE to his comments.. Is that tooooooooooooooooo hard for you to follow? See the previous post where I asked "when somebody is slinging insults around, are we expected to answer all smiles and just say "like whatever"?

Go back and read Starters comments, and if you don't see his contempt expressed all over then i give up.


I won't even go there about terms like "whack jobs" (since I really don't believe you were calling people like me, so therefore me a whack job) and how people who have to repeat "cliches" because they other people don't listen before going off on a tangent of their own means that they are somehow disconnected or in your words "irrational".

Ah good, you understood that. Good, because it was a genuine wish and one I don't see how anybody could argue with.

We all know over 88% of all murders in the USA and pretty similar in the restt of the civilised world---even if it is rates mere fractions of a % of USA murder rates---are bummed out ex-husband, or ex-boyfriend killing a spouse, or ex , and too often, killing their kids, and only then killing themselves..
THAT is the typical murder and they can only be described as whack jobs. That small % that might kill strangers randomly--they're whacked in the head, too.
Sane people don't murder others.


SO lets set aside that I completely disagree with you on the argument. In just 1 post you have managed to insult me (in your defense- without knowing it) several times over.

Wrong, you, unfortunately suffer a common ailment in this country of "Looking to be offended".
All my comments were directed directly at Starters blatantly unevenhanded immoderate moderation, and leaving Reibe and Fousto--whatever the guy calls himself now, and a few others untouched when in a huge portion of their posts in Chit Chat, they suggest vile, hate filled sentiments, and Reibe in particular, every post an overt insult. Comments directly addressing, virtually line by line, in the thread "Another shooting of innocents in US" to STARTER's allegedly humorous No gun has ever killed anybody...: is not addressed to anybody but Starter.

Why are you offended at any exchange of somebody responding to his comments such as these, all dripping with contempt
"Nice over reaction ",
"it's too bad that most liberals in this country".
" have so much trouble in thinking clearly"
"short of a house to house search but I guess you would advocate that,"
" the Constitution just being a minor inconvenience of course. " in a thread

And in a thread about---right there in the title the innocents, this:
"As for accidental gun deaths, there is no way you can fix stupid " which infers victims are stupid in this context




Yet you're going to come here and whine

Now you use loaded terms

I thought this was a discussion about why Starter closes threads of those he disagrees with and leaves the insults of his spiritual brethren untouched..

But you have decided that --with the use of the phrase "come here and whine" that it's not..

Come on, take your Moderator hat off for a second and look at that choice of words...

It's just flat f#####g** odd that you American Moderators seem on the one hand primed to be offended and yet you use make accusations and use loaded inflammatory words yourselves.



And I though in this discussion I could help show how offense and offensive words are both overt and implicit and that "offense" is a point of view.


*dust
**freaking

And finally the thing edited away by starter was primarily HUMOUROUS. He had been as seen above talking about how "most Liberals" have problems thinking and "reality" etc and he MIS-USED the phrase "couldn't care less" saying "Criminal could care less"...now if you cannot see that the misuse means he isn't thinking about what his words mean, after just dissing somebody else intellect..

I posted a piccie off google images, a variation on the famous line from Tarrantino's "Pulp Fiction" which was "English ************! Do you speak it? Only it was nicer. It was--linkie at Google Images
http://i.qkme.me/5h6e.jpg

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



And please, don't call me Shirley.... :p

"Something terrible has happened in the cockpit!!! Come quickly"
"What's that?"

"Oh its a small room with lots of dials and....."

Was that really offensive? We'll never know... but you already decided without even seeing it that it was..
Sorry, I think you bother should turn in your badges.

In fact I think the easiest solution is to put no Americans into Moderator roles: they're too polarized and polarizing.

[slorydn1]

Bull####,* you.....
Sorry, I think you bother should turn in your badges.

In fact I think the easiest solution is to put no Americans into Moderator roles: they're too polarized and polarizing.

Let me start by saying I was quoting your whole post but had to chop it out so that my post would fit (darned 10000 character rule).....

I understand English perfectly well. I also do not sit around as you say "looking to be offended".

It appears it is you who do not get it, so I will clarify things for you, which usually, like Starter who is one of the fairest people I have met on this board in the last 10+ years I have been here (and I said and felt that before I became a Mod 2 years ago) I like to do by PM but since you like to make a habit of calling out moderators in public I will spell it out for you publicly.

1) You (and I) have the right to free speech and all that goes with that. That said, posting on this forum is a privilege, not a right.

2) You have the right to disagree with any member of this forum, moderators and administrators included.

3) You have the right to voice your opinion about any topic that comes up on this forum. That said, just like with free speech in life, exercising that right doesn't mean that there are not possible consequences to that. Say something that your boss at work doesn't like and see what happens. You have the right to say it, he has the right to show you the door.

4) You even have the right to question, privately, something a moderator does or doesn't do. Keep in mind that you don't have all the information at your disposal. How do you know that nothing happened because a post didn't get edited or someone got banned.
This forum has a points system, people can get sanctioned and you won't know a thing about it unless the person who got his hand slapped wants to tell you about it.

5) You do not have the right to publicly call out a moderator for the discipline that gets handed out (or not) to others. That's pretty much standard at every forum that I have ever belonged to, which is a few. In most places the violation for this is an instant ban. But since I can't seem to find the Forum rules page (I guess it didn't migrate with us to the new server somehow) I choose not to ban you right here and now (and not for your response to my post-I had some of that coming, more on that below). Now I can't guarantee someone else won't, but I won't, not now. Seeing that you have good taste in movies, anyway.

Those 5 points, although they are contained in a post directed at you janvanvurpa, are for EVERYBODY's benefit (hint, hint).

I do apologize for doing a horrible job in getting my point across in my previous post. Personally I couldn't care less what you think about me carrying guns and all that. It's not personal at all. In fact, even though you didn't seem understand what I was really trying to say, you kinda illustrated my point for me by saying that my post shows that I am "looking to be offended". I'm not "truly" offended by what you said about people being simplistic and the like. Unfortunately, there are people who are. I was only trying to illustrate what can happen in those instances and it looks pretty silly to see it when people are, doesn't it? Yet is that not exactly what one is doing when they complain about "implied insults"?

I don't know about other mods, but I don't usually go around sanctioning everyone for a sideways word here or a little nudge there. I kinda like reading some of it, brightens my day a little bit. One of my fav's is when someone says something, another person comes back and days something to the effect that "You're dead wrong about that" and the OP reports the response and cries "he insulted me, ban him for life, why won't you do something about him!!! (don't laugh I see that AT LEAST once a week around here). I usually go after people who cusses someone out (******'s included) or blatantly tells them to shut up, that they or their opinion are worthless, questions their ancestry and the like.

It looks even sillier, though, when a person reads that,then turns around and insults them farther. Nowhere in your post that I quoted to start this one did I see where the words idiot,moron, or stupid were directed at me, and props to you for that. However, if I wanted to be a little more of a butthole about it saying things like "is that tooooooooooooooooo hard for you to understand?" could be construed as going down that road. Try to be more careful please. One last thing. Keep the nationalistic insults to yourself. Another longstanding member got smoked for that in the not too distant past.

And yes, your post made me go back and read the whole other thread again. I shouldn't have used the word "only" when describing you and the insults. I was mainly scanning through looking at what Starter had to say since that was the whole point of this thread, and your interaction with him. And yes there were other issues in that thread and they have been dealt with by Mark himself and the thread has been locked. As I said above, you may not know it or be able to see it, but it has been. So I won't be dealing with that anymore.

Now all of you can see why I stay out of chit chat for the most part. Too many world views on what usually are local problems cause too many headaches, and what I as an American may feel is right someone in England or Finland may think is completely daft. This is http://www.motorsportforums.com and I come here to talk about motorsports, primarily NASCAR, Indy Car, and Formula 1. I choose to stay out of the political arena as much as possible and only mentioned my stance on guns to illustrate a point. I am neither Conservative or Liberal, and have voted for members of both major parties for various offices to include President. That does not mean that I don't have strongly held views on different topics, whether that be abortion, taxes, big or small government (etc). I just don't see where me talking about that helps much when I want to talk about racing.
I usually only end up in chit chat now-a-days when I am investigating a reported post and no other Mods seem to be around right that minute.

Now, about Starter himself. I meant what I said above. For those of you who haven't been around long, Starter had the unenviable task of moderating the Indy Car forum back when Champcar and the IRL were getting ready to merge back together. It was real ugly back then, made the Chit Chat forum look like a kindergarten playground. He had to ban many many people, then lead the remaining members into the combined Indy Car forum, where things run pretty smoothly now. Yep he has opinions, too. And although I don't agree with all of them I got his back. If y'all don't like that, I wish I could help you, but I can't, not with that deal. It has absolutely zero to do with the fact that we are Americans, either. Anyone who intimates that is dead wrong. Ask Pino and Mark, they will tell you that and last time I checked they live on the east side of the Atlantic Ocean.

I thought about locking this thread, but what good would it do, someone will only start another thread saying that I don't have the right to come to Starter's defense because I am a moderator and not entitled to my opinion and that I shouldn't have locked it to start with (etc, etc, etc). Am I wrong?

I will close by saying I apologize for any misspellings or missing letters in this post. I am smarter than I type, believe me. It has taken the better part of 2 hours to type this, much to my wife's chagrin so if it makes any of you feel better, she is now pissed at me.

[monadvspec]

I've been away for a couple of days and am just catching up, so apologies to all for going back to the beginning of this thread.

The poster below has accused me of acting in a biased manner. I'd just like to clear a couple things up. It is true that I did delete two things from one of his posts. Both were obscenities which are against forum rules (and using **** in a word where the word is still easily recognizable is still not allowed). Nothing else was edited from the content of the post including the insults directed toward me. I do not feel it appropriate for a Mod to take action against a member for something directed at him/her because of a discussion they are involved in. Nor did I use the report post function to have another Mod do my "dirty work" for me. There are none of the current Mods on this board who have ever used their authority against a member who they may have had personal issues with. If nothing else, Mark would boot us in a skinny minute for such a thing. That does not mean that I will give monadvspec, or anyone else, a pass if they violate the rules of the board.

Once more you are playing with the facts. If I go back to a couple of threads I can show you exactly where you allow some people to use the # in place of a word which is blatantly obvious. You just do not like my posts. Admit it.
You edited me this week by accusing me of calling an individual names. That is a bold faced lie or, you did not read what I said. Go back, look again and tell me where the insult is.
You have edited other posts by other members also and have allowed the more egregious comments to stand. In fact, one of those posters is here pontificating about how the administrator could get the forum to operate in a civilized manner.
Want me to point to the post? Mark (administrator) and Starter (moderator) the # is used in some of the most prestigious newspapers,magazines and the like. It is like a bleeped out word on TV. It is up to interpretation and it, no matter what this moderator says ###### is not a word.
Go to Speed.com, a TV website and look to Robin Miller a reporter. He used these symbols all the time. He still has a column. I would like to feel that he has to abide by more stringent rules.By the way, you completely removed my post which was not insulting to anyone, but, ironically, it contained facts and links to the subject at hand which was contrary to your opinion. You then left the post asking for those figures with insults and innuendo stay as it was and you sent me a PM saying you would not take it down or words to that effect.

[monadvspec]

And neither was the member in question in this case. The only action taken was to remove the offensive parts of the post. One was one sentence and the other was an attached image.

Generally, a PM warning would be sent for the first time and the post edited to remove it. Only on repeated behaviour would an infraction be made. With the exception of eggregious circumstances of course.
BDunnell, see how it is done. Starter referenced me and posted my comments. He stated I used # to mask a word.

Then you challenge him and state that you have done the same. His response is to say he edited the post and an image. That post he is referring to was by a participant on this page and only for the fact that I actually saw the post he is implying it was me. Smoke and mirrors and worse than any # one could use.

[monadvspec]

Let me start by saying I was quoting your whole post but had to chop it out so that my post would fit (darned 10000 character rule).....

I understand English perfectly well. I also do not sit around as you say "looking to be offended".

It appears it is you who do not get it, so I will clarify things for you, which usually, like Starter who is one of the fairest people I have met on this board in the last 10+ years I have been here (and I said and felt that before I became a Mod 2 years ago) I like to do by PM but since you like to make a habit of calling out moderators in public I will spell it out for you publicly.

1) You (and I) have the right to free speech and all that goes with that. That said, posting on this forum is a privilege, not a right.

2) You have the right to disagree with any member of this forum, moderators and administrators included.

3) You have the right to voice your opinion about any topic that comes up on this forum. That said, just like with free speech in life, exercising that right doesn't mean that there are not possible consequences to that. Say something that your boss at work doesn't like and see what happens. You have the right to say it, he has the right to show you the door.

4) You even have the right to question, privately, something a moderator does or doesn't do. Keep in mind that you don't have all the information at your disposal. How do you know that nothing happened because a post didn't get edited or someone got banned.
This forum has a points system, people can get sanctioned and you won't know a thing about it unless the person who got his hand slapped wants to tell you about it.

5) You do not have the right to publicly call out a moderator for the discipline that gets handed out (or not) to others. That's pretty much standard at every forum that I have ever belonged to, which is a few. In most places the violation for this is an instant ban. But since I can't seem to find the Forum rules page (I guess it didn't migrate with us to the new server somehow) I choose not to ban you right here and now (and not for your response to my post-I had some of that coming, more on that below). Now I can't guarantee someone else won't, but I won't, not now. Seeing that you have good taste in movies, anyway.

Those 5 points, although they are contained in a post directed at you janvanvurpa, are for EVERYBODY's benefit (hint, hint).

I do apologize for doing a horrible job in getting my point across in my previous post. Personally I couldn't care less what you think about me carrying guns and all that. It's not personal at all. In fact, even though you didn't seem understand what I was really trying to say, you kinda illustrated my point for me by saying that my post shows that I am "looking to be offended". I'm not "truly" offended by what you said about people being simplistic and the like. Unfortunately, there are people who are. I was only trying to illustrate what can happen in those instances and it looks pretty silly to see it when people are, doesn't it? Yet is that not exactly what one is doing when they complain about "implied insults"?

I don't know about other mods, but I don't usually go around sanctioning everyone for a sideways word here or a little nudge there. I kinda like reading some of it, brightens my day a little bit. One of my fav's is when someone says something, another person comes back and days something to the effect that "You're dead wrong about that" and the OP reports the response and cries "he insulted me, ban him for life, why won't you do something about him!!! (don't laugh I see that AT LEAST once a week around here). I usually go after people who cusses someone out (******'s included) or blatantly tells them to shut up, that they or their opinion are worthless, questions their ancestry and the like.

It looks even sillier, though, when a person reads that,then turns around and insults them farther. Nowhere in your post that I quoted to start this one did I see where the words idiot,moron, or stupid were directed at me, and props to you for that. However, if I wanted to be a little more of a butthole about it saying things like "is that tooooooooooooooooo hard for you to understand?" could be construed as going down that road. Try to be more careful please. One last thing. Keep the nationalistic insults to yourself. Another longstanding member got smoked for that in the not too distant past.

And yes, your post made me go back and read the whole other thread again. I shouldn't have used the word "only" when describing you and the insults. I was mainly scanning through looking at what Starter had to say since that was the whole point of this thread, and your interaction with him. And yes there were other issues in that thread and they have been dealt with by Mark himself and the thread has been locked. As I said above, you may not know it or be able to see it, but it has been. So I won't be dealing with that anymore.

Now all of you can see why I stay out of chit chat for the most part. Too many world views on what usually are local problems cause too many headaches, and what I as an American may feel is right someone in England or Finland may think is completely daft. This is http://www.motorsportforums.com and I come here to talk about motorsports, primarily NASCAR, Indy Car, and Formula 1. I choose to stay out of the political arena as much as possible and only mentioned my stance on guns to illustrate a point. I am neither Conservative or Liberal, and have voted for members of both major parties for various offices to include President. That does not mean that I don't have strongly held views on different topics, whether that be abortion, taxes, big or small government (etc). I just don't see where me talking about that helps much when I want to talk about racing.
I usually only end up in chit chat now-a-days when I am investigating a reported post and no other Mods seem to be around right that minute.

Now, about Starter himself. I meant what I said above. For those of you who haven't been around long, Starter had the unenviable task of moderating the Indy Car forum back when Champcar and the IRL were getting ready to merge back together. It was real ugly back then, made the Chit Chat forum look like a kindergarten playground. He had to ban many many people, then lead the remaining members into the combined Indy Car forum, where things run pretty smoothly now. Yep he has opinions, too. And although I don't agree with all of them I got his back. If y'all don't like that, I wish I could help you, but I can't, not with that deal. It has absolutely zero to do with the fact that we are Americans, either. Anyone who intimates that is dead wrong. Ask Pino and Mark, they will tell you that and last time I checked they live on the east side of the Atlantic Ocean.

I thought about locking this thread, but what good would it do, someone will only start another thread saying that I don't have the right to come to Starter's defense because I am a moderator and not entitled to my opinion and that I shouldn't have locked it to start with (etc, etc, etc). Am I wrong?

I will close by saying I apologize for any misspellings or missing letters in this post. I am smarter than I type, believe me. It has taken the better part of 2 hours to type this, much to my wife's chagrin so if it makes any of you feel better, she is now pissed at me.

Two things I'd like to ask you. 1/ since when is butthole allowed and not considered a vulgarity? See, you allow that by posting it but ban someone else for #.

In a previous post you stated that Starter was correct but you admitted that you had not seen the post. So how do you know he is correct?

[Mark]

Once more you are playing with the facts. If I go back to a couple of threads I can show you exactly where you allow some people to use the # in place of a word which is blatantly obvious. You just do not like my posts. Admit it.

Yet again, MODERATORS DO NOT READ OR APPROVE EVERY SINGLE POST - I'm not sure what I have to say here to get my point across. Just because someone 'gets away with it' once without sanction DOES NOT mean that it's perfectly ok.

As for the issue of starred out words, swearing is not allowed on this forum - which includes starring it out, as that still forms part of the sentence, I have trouble with that myself sometimes, but the rule stands. - And before some goes through the entire history of the forum and reports every *'d out word, please don't, it's boring :)

[Mark]

It does seem from this that some are unable to take a step back from the issues and subject of the thread and look at things objectively. I know the subject of gun law is an extremely emotive one, but from what I've read here it seems to be the main complaint against Starter is that he doesn't take the same view? Now it seems the only thing edited were some swear words, so what? All of this for a couple of swear words? Or is it the fact the swear words were removed by someone on the opposite side of the debate?

I'm all for strong opinions - but action needs to be taken when it dissolves into insults, but it also needs to be understood that it isn't a moderators job to read every single word of every single thread and take action against everything. So; you may get your insult removed, the person who insulted you may not - This is a fact of life.

[Mark]

It is good to see opinions and have diversity. With it moderators should keep their nose out of the comments. Why have people like Gluaist??? been banned, my comments edited and another's and then we are left with Riebe who does nothing but whine, moan call names and his comments never get edited and he is obviously, not banned?

Glauistean is the spelling you are looking for. Just to point out that banned members are not permitted to return without express permission from me. In your case this permission has not been granted - and probably won't be.

[janvanvurpa]

It does seem from this that some are unable to take a step back from the issues and subject of the thread and look at things objectively. I know the subject of gun law is an extremely emotive one, but from what I've read here it seems to be the main complaint against Starter is that he doesn't take the same view? Now it seems the only thing edited were some swear words, so what? All of this for a couple of swear words? Or is it the fact the swear words were removed by someone on the opposite side of the debate?

I'm all for strong opinions - but action needs to be taken when it dissolves into insults, but it also needs to be understood that it isn't a moderators job to read every single word of every single thread and take action against everything. So; you may get your insult removed, the person who insulted you may not - This is a fact of life.

No Mark they were not swear words, Starter is a flat liar. There was a poster i sent you a link, and made a comment "With Apologies to Tarantino's Pulp Fiction" The words were an elaborate avoidance of profanity. The Poster said "Fornicator of Matriarchs! The English language, do you understand its usage? " Followed my a joking use of the "######"s as in "well, ########" do you?" No well balanced person could take that in a serious manner so well known is the line from Pulp Fiction (itself an absurdist over the top movie, and the scene in which the imfamous line was taken from particularly crazy---I cannot help if these people you have empowered to ban people are so unaware of popular culture that they don't know what the poster was parodying. OTHERS did and thought it was funny as it was intended)



That is not a profanity--it is a exaggerated parody of saying things absurdly to avoid profanity..

So now you see that your Moderators lie, and this second American "Moderator" one comes in and announces in advance that "if Starter said it was profanity, that's all he needs to know.." and has given me a "warning" and a threat "it could have been a lot worse".
I must confess that i did not know using ###s in jest was an infraction.

is using *****s OK? <-------that is also a joke

Mark I suggested that both these "Moderators" might think about turning in their "badges" if they cannot treat those with whom they disagree fairly and those they agree with with given the warnings they deserve...

I am serious, perhaps you should have no American moderators. This country is riven with strongly polarised opinions and public dialog has become poisoned with one side being constantly outraged at people doing anything they personally don't like---and they feel entitled to do and say anything to justify their positions..

I generally take little on forums seriously, but I detest when people in power lie and accuse me of things I have not done, and when they do it with impunity, it is particularly unpalatable.

[cali]

Just out of curiosity, for what was monadvspec banned and John warned? Foul language or taking it against mods?

[Mark]

Just out of curiosity, for what was monadvspec banned and John warned? Foul language or taking it against mods?

Mondavspec was banned because it turned out he was a previously banned member returning under a different name. This is not permitted, regardless of what happens with the new login name.

[cali]

Mondavspec was banned because it turned out he was a previously banned member returning under a different name. This is not permitted, regardless of what happens with the new login name.

OK, this is perfectly clear now, but what about John? His points were mostly spot on, little harshly put in words sometimes, but reflects the situation in Chit Chat section.

[Knock-on]

There are obviously cliques of members that have similar opinions and believe that vociferous debating gives them more rights than normal members: it doesn't.

In recent years, the Chit Chat forum has gradually become polluted with this type of Gruella posting on certain topics. It isn't debating any more but just a gruelling test of which side can be the loudest and most prolific on threads involving Government, religion Guns etc.

This is not the fault of the Moderators but the members. It' the members who control the quality and content of a forum. All the Mods do is gradually nudge things back onto a more civil basis or occasionally remove negative and destructive influences. They don't get paid just as nobody parts with money to be a member here. They may make mistakes but overwhelmingly do their level best, in my opinion, to moderate in a diligent, honest and even handed manner.


No Mark they were not swear words, Starter is a flat liar.

I would be very surprised if Starter was a liar. It's more likely emotions and standpoint on certain subjects suggests he's against you when in fact; he's just doing the job.

However, if you have strong feelings on the matter, you should stand by your principles and find a forum more in line with your ethical persuasion. Before doing this, I suggest you hold a mirror up and carefully consider if this is not the storm in a tea cup I mentioned on the other thread. Is the whole issue being clouded by emotion and as members; have all concerned acted in a way that exacerbated the issues?

[Camelopard]

Just out of curiosity, for what was monadvspec banned and John warned? Foul language or taking it against mods?

It would seem that monadvspec was banned for the heinous crime of having been banned previously under a different userid, no such thing as rehabilitation in these parts!

John is seems was warned for being a naughty boy, speaking his mind and posting an image (http://i.qkme.me/5h6e.jpg) that offended certain mods. It certainly under no circumstances can be classed as being offensive, even during Victorian times(!) however it seems to have touched a raw nerve and upset the sensibilities of the inner clique!

It really gets on my goat that posters of a certain political persuasion seem to get away with insulting all and sundry without it seems ever being warned or banned. Coincidence or conspiracy? Seems to me to be quite obvious which one, particularly if one presumes that the various 'moderators' are in total agreement with what has been posted! Moderators unbiased? My pigsty!

You Mark responded to a 'pm' that I sent to you stating that 'starter' told you that he had edited a post from John and I quote from your pm at 25th Feb 12 00:36: "He removed some bad language / swearing, that is all."

That is a complete falsehood and if you had bothered to ask John, I'm sure he would have agreed as well, however you of course it seems that you only talked to 'starter', "Hmmmm I was only following orders, honest!" (I'll try and get away with the Nuremberg defence here, oh and by the way don't mention the war!).

Another poster picked up on the edit also and it seems that he has now been banned as well, how convenient!. Ho hum!

I'll say it again, if you post comments, that a moderator, irrespective of who they are, where they live and what their political views are agrees with you, nothing will happen, it seems it doesn't matter if these posts contain falsehoods or personal insults as long as the moderator agree with those sentiments, all is sweet and ok. This to my way of thinking is the only way that certain posters can get away with their insults without it seems any action being taken against them.

I also sent you Mark a 'pm' in reply to your post about you thinking of "Banning Political Posts", sounds like a great idea, one less avenue for the nutters out there to voice their obscene comments and views.
Needless to say you didn't bother to respond, which also makes me think that you, or your so called 'moderators' actually agree with the majority of what is posted, deny that or just take the easy way out and 'ban me' because I don't happen to agree with your 'red neck' views?

So monadvspec was banned as he had previously been banned under another user id. Well how particularly convenient that was... One still has to ask the question as to how certain other 'posters' can get away with posting their insults with it seems impunity.

It really gets on my goat that posters of a certain political persuasion seem to get away with insulting all and sundry without it seems ever being warned or banned. Coincidence or conspiracy? Seems to me to be quite obvious which one.

I'll say it again, if you post comments that a moderator, irrespective of who they, where they live and what their political views are, agrees with you, nothing will happen, it seems it doesn't matter if these posts contain falsehoods or personal insults as long as I (being the moderator) agree with those sentiments, all is sweet and ok. This to my way of thinking is the only way that certain posters can get away with their insults without it seems any action being taken against them.

As I have said previously both in public posts and privately via 'pm's make me a 'moderator' please, I'll sort out the REAL troublemakers on here and make this part of the forum live up to the message that underscores the Chit Chat heading: "A forum for talking about absolutely anything, the only restriction is that you keep it clean, this is a family forum".


Not going to happen in my lifetime is it?

[Mark]

It would seem that monadvspec was banned for the heinous crime of having been banned previously under a different userid, no such thing as rehabilitation in these parts!

It is possible to come back from a ban, if after a period of time you contact me directly, say that you wish to return under your previous name and then I'll consider it. Posts made under your new username will not be considered, the ban will be applied.

What you do not do, is after you've been banned start an email hate campaign lasting several months, threaten legal action unless you get reinstated and then open a new account pretending to be someone else. A banned member remains banned no matter how many new accounts they may open - they may evade detection for a while but this doesn't not change this fact.

PS, your post repeats itself, copy+paste error?

[Camelopard]

Wow your reply was quick, I hadn't even time to correct my post. This subject a bit touchy perhaps?

Yes it was a copy and paste error, I hope I have fixed it, you seem well in control of this thread but not previous posts/threads, coincidence?

[Mark]

Yes a copy and paste error, I hope I have fixed it, you seem well in control of this but not previous posts/threads, coincidence?

How do you mean?

[Camelopard]

How do you mean?

Contact 'starter', I'm sure he can fill you in on all the gory details.....................................

[janvanvurpa]

There are obviously cliques of members that have similar opinions and believe that vociferous debating gives them more rights than normal members: it doesn't.

In recent years, the Chit Chat forum has gradually become polluted with this type of Gruella posting on certain topics. It isn't debating any more but just a gruelling test of which side can be the loudest and most prolific on threads involving Government, religion Guns etc.

This is not the fault of the Moderators but the members. It' the members who control the quality and content of a forum. All the Mods do is gradually nudge things back onto a more civil basis or occasionally remove negative and destructive influences. They don't get paid just as nobody parts with money to be a member here. They may make mistakes but overwhelmingly do their level best, in my opinion, to moderate in a diligent, honest and even handed manner.



I would be very surprised if Starter was a liar. It's more likely emotions and standpoint on certain subjects suggests he's against you when in fact; he's just doing the job.

However, if you have strong feelings on the matter, you should stand by your principles and find a forum more in line with your ethical persuasion. Before doing this, I suggest you hold a mirror up and carefully consider if this is not the storm in a tea cup I mentioned on the other thread. Is the whole issue being clouded by emotion and as members; have all concerned acted in a way that exacerbated the issues?

Knockie. go to this link or read the words quoted in my previous post Joseph Ducreux - the english language you fornicator of matriarchs are you f (http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/5h6e/).
Read it.
tell me if it is profanity.

The advice which is basically "go away' is great, thank you for your thoughts. I had to a large extent after the americans screamed enough insults back when the Iraq war started. Oddly that is what they always scream. Love it or leave it.

Now after reading the silly "meme" at the link I so generously provided, and see that it is definately not profanity as Starter said but rather flowery parody, what do you say about Starter claim that it was? If its not, then his claim is what? A..... it's a 3 letter word, come on, ... first letter L.......

[Mark]

Jan,
Can I respectfully suggest you take a step back and breathe for a while. As to be perfectly honest your posts don't make much sense to me any more.

[janvanvurpa]

Jan,
Can I respectfully suggest you take a step back and breathe for a while. As to be perfectly honest your posts don't make much sense to me any more.

Mark. I am breathing just fine. I wonder however why you and others conspicuously are avoiding addressing the link now posted and PMed to you 5-6 times where the moderator claims I used profanity. It is very curious indeed. It seems like you and a few others are covering your ears and saying loudly "La-la-la YOU NEED TO CALM DOWN!"..

Nobody likes to be accused of doing things they didn't do, and nobody likes being threatened---however minor the threat is, after all being banned from a forum is not a big deal----based on a person in power abusing their power....

That is fairly clearly stated, isn't it?

So again: can you say honestly if the silly piccie was "profanity" as Starter claimed it was?

And more broadly, what disciplinary action should be meted out to forum members---regarless of their status ----when they misbehave--in this case the "cover-up" being worse than the alleged infraction, and the other, the moderator giving out warnings and threats after --evidently---not even looking at the alleged naughtiness?
Shouldn't they both be reprimanded?

[airshifter]

It does seem from this that some are unable to take a step back from the issues and subject of the thread and look at things objectively. I know the subject of gun law is an extremely emotive one, but from what I've read here it seems to be the main complaint against Starter is that he doesn't take the same view? Now it seems the only thing edited were some swear words, so what? All of this for a couple of swear words? Or is it the fact the swear words were removed by someone on the opposite side of the debate?

I'm all for strong opinions - but action needs to be taken when it dissolves into insults, but it also needs to be understood that it isn't a moderators job to read every single word of every single thread and take action against everything. So; you may get your insult removed, the person who insulted you may not - This is a fact of life.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, not only for the gun topic but for many that tend to end in a downward spiral. Many people seem to use a double standard in that they can express their opinion in a caustic, inflamatory, implied insult sense, but then get angry if others respond in kind. It also seems that some simply can't look at posts from their "enemies" in any objective fashion, as they let past remarks cloud the current topics. An example of this is the names dragged into this dispute on the gun thread that didn't even post in that thread, yet were brought up as part of the problem.




For the sake of forum sanity, I think all of us members should chill out and give these moderators and Mark a break. Throwing stones around gets us nowhere in a hurry. They don't have time to read every single post, research past disputes, attempt to get into our heads to find our point of view, or anything else. They have to make a decision based on what they see and what is reported.

As for the "well HE did it and didn't get punished" that doesn't make much sense either. As far as I know it's not made public unless you do it yourself or unless you get a public dispute questioning the reasoning. I recieved a warning some time back and thought that in the overall sense of the thread that mine was one of the milder comments. But in the spirit of the forums rules I crossed a line, and the moderator felt the need to act on it. Rather than take it personally I just took the warning as just that and moved on. I'd still buy the guy a beer just for putting up with our crap.

More importantly we all have to respect the fact that other might oppose our opinions just as strongly as we support them. Unless we all want to degrade ourselves to a bunch of whining kids that appear to have single digit IQs we need to discuss/debate/dialouge on these issues in a civil manner and at some point accept that we will simply disagree on some or many issues.

I'd also state that one of the worst mistakes seemingly made my many when it comes to political topics is the painting of members with a very broad brush, most often based on party lines with US topics, or views being liberal or conservative. I'd imagine very, very few members fit those broad stereotypes. As an example.....

I'm a gun owner, but don't carry one nor feel I need it for self defense.
I willingly give to charity, but feel that government is out of hand on benefits they give out.
I personally am pro life, but have to say that a woman should have a right to choose for herself.
I've voted Republican, Democrat, and independant over the years.
I think we should have the worlds strongest and most capable military..... that never gets used other than as a deterrent or for humanitarian reasons.

We are all humans much more complex than the stereotypes that get tossed around on here. We should respect that and accept it. I've got friends and neighbors and others in my life that have opposing views to many of mine, yet we can sit down and have a meal or drink and get along just fine. There is no reason people on this forum can't behave in the same way.

[EuroTroll]

John, I have to say I also thought the piccie in question was a bit much, especially as it was followed by the actual quote from Pulp Fiction. Why not just let it go? You and Starter disagree on the meaning of it, but it's not such a big deal, is it?

I'd also like to underline something Airshifter wrote:

It also seems that some simply can't look at posts from their "enemies" in any objective fashion, as they let past remarks cloud the current topics.

This is what prompted the "pot, kettle, black" comment I made to you. On that particular thread, Bob Riebe hadn't said anything obnoxious, as far as I could tell. Yet he got a torrent of abuse for what I assume are past crimes. (I've only recently rejoined the forum, so I'm not up-to-date.) That was more than a little weird, and I have to say I didn't like it. I think we've got to be able to take each post on its own merit, as none of us produce only pure gold or pure crap.



We are all humans much more complex than the stereotypes that get tossed around on here. We should respect that and accept it. I've got friends and neighbors and others in my life that have opposing views to many of mine, yet we can sit down and have a meal or drink and get along just fine. There is no reason people on this forum can't behave in the same way.

Yes we can! :)

[janvanvurpa]

John, I have to say I also thought the piccie in question was a bit much, especially as it was followed by the actual quote from Pulp Fiction. Why not just let it go? You and Starter disagree on the meaning of it, but it's not such a big deal, is it?

Subtle humor is lost on-line but it was not profanity and it was followed with random stuff---you know, like cartoons will put a series of !!%@^**@&!!! .
I was unaware that the # sound was "interdit"

But: there was no profanity either in the picture or the following line.
Thus Starters claim is a willful misrepresentation of the truth, a prevarication, a falsehood, an untruth, a fib, and he's going to get a pimple on his tongue!
(is that obvious enough parody?)

That thread--about victims, my response--hours after an 8 year old, minutes ago another gun murder at a school in Ohio...and these people derail the discussion to "MY RIGHT TO OWN GUNS" and nary a word about children getting maimed and killed..
EVERY time it becomes MY RIGHT TO OWN GUNS!!!!!!!!...

It is madness. You cannot imagine it.

Now this could all be settled if the "Moderators" would man up and admit they 1) lied and 20 gave warning and threats of "it could have been worse" based on not even looking at the thing which you say was "a bit much" but buffaloing ahead "If starter says iit was profanity, then by GAWD that's good enuf for me!!!!"


How are you doing otherwise, man, it's been a while?

[EuroTroll]

How are you doing otherwise, man, it's been a while?

Please see PM. ;)

[Mark]

I'm satisfied that no moderators have lied and any action taken was appropriate. No further action is going to be taken in this matter.

I'm happy to leave this thread open as it's an interesting discussion in itself, but let's practice what we preach and keep it civil :)

[donKey jote]

P.S., where is Markabilly? At least he has a sense of humour and could take a joke and have a laugh!
yep

I do know where his missus is though...

over at Starter's ! :arrows: :andrea: :p






This whole thing seems to have gotten a bit out of hand, and I'm truly sorry for my part in it. I shouldn't have let the donkey in me out like that regardless, it just makes me look (and feel) like even more of a donkey.
Take a deep breath, eejuts will remain eejuts, cretins will remain cretins, trolls will remain trolls... and life remains beautiful :D

as for grown forumers whinging... :dozey:

I am new to this site and have sent the following to different members.
Usually I never post or have even registered. When this came up I decided to take the time I have (2weeks)and just went through post after post of people that you have banned.
To be perfectly candid you are using a double standard. You have rules you adhere to and others that you ignore. The "you" is plural.
You banned an individual months ago,Gluaistean.

Good place to start. Then you stated you banned Monadvspec and said he was coming in as a different person.
You then state that the universally used # is to be considered a letter. Well, it's very simple to contact people these days and of the many banned and the two mentioned here as they are identified by you. I am alarmed to say the least that you banned either of these people when going back through all the threads (call me crazy) and did not ban a member named Bob Riebe for what he suggested happen to the Kennedy family. The response from Gluaistean was very vocal but not in the least vitriolic or should be a ban. Bob Riebe should be banned.

Now you come to Monadvspec and you ban him because he used # instead of a letter and was banned under another name. Tell me or the other members who that person is so that there is a fair representation of the reasons why he was banned initially. We can all look and you can supply the date.
I have been a member of a website that supports this forum for many many years. I came here this morning and was reading why posts were closed. At that time it was two. I then went to the "general tab" or whatever it is called and saw two more posts.
Members stating Monadvspec was whining in the open thread by a poster. This individual has an Estonian flag and is also a friend of Starters. Appears as though he is in lock step with the so called moderator and as such will agree like a puppy dog with what he says.
My next task, and one that YOU Mark said you did not want to see happening, was for someone to point to the # where members were not banned. Well, that was an invitation and a telegraphed desire on your part because you know full well that you choose discriminate and ban whom you wish and to hell with the so called forum rules.
I do not know the level of education that any of the people that moderate have attained, however, it is very much an idiotic and conflict of interest and fair debate. It's akin to the moderator of a presidential debate adding his opinion in favor of a candidate of his choice.
The next post will show those not banned for using a # sign. Interesting since I just touched the surface. You will ban this post, but, by the time you do it will have been seen by many.

This is a follow up on the above.
Mark and Moderator, please explain why you select people to ban and how you rationalize the reasons why others are not.


Why the **** should I care about the islamand it's people? It's just hypocrite and troublesome folk here in TheNetherlands. Especially the children, they're having a big mouth and they'realways seeking trouble. Also don't forget when you're gay in Iran you'll getthe death penalty by hanging. It's a stupid religion, and it's causing moretrouble then that it's doing good things for this world. I don't have areligion, but I prefer Christian or Catholic instead of being a ****ing beast.

Sorry if people don't like my comment, but it's how I see the most muslims aredoing nowadays in The Netherlands. Luckily I live in a good town where youcan't find those young trouble seekers, but in the big cities you can see thosestupid trouble seekers in every street. It's not that I hate every muslim, onthe contrary, I'm having friends which are muslim, but I really dislike thereligions' rules and the lots of ****ty youth in the cities here.



Heliocastroneves3



Religion -- **** it!



Studiorose



Bob Riebe



1. Thread: Another shooting of innocents in US (http://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/150972-another-shooting-innocents-us.html)

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No ****sherlock! (http://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/150972-another-shooting-innocents-us-post1010044.html#post1010044)

No **** sherlock!

Don't worry donK, you can take pills forit.



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Originally Posted by BDunnellhttp://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/150492-president-obama-now-quoting-jesus-justify-taxing-rich-5.html#post1006589

No matter what — no matter how deep thefinancial crisis — people always find the money for extravagant luxuries.

If you are trying to prove your intellectis lesser than your grammar skills, you are succeeding .

Shipwrecked In New Jersey | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty (http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/shipwrecked-in-new-jersey/)

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Originally Posted by BDunnellhttp://www.motorsportforums.com/chitchat/148461-people-power-post987299.html#post987299

Bob, there is surely no basis to your'logic' here. The average could still end up as $19 even if no-one in Detroitcame close to earning that. You really don't seem to know what 'average' means.

No you are a clueless twit here and thisresponse makes that point well.



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[airshifter]

And yet again, here we are with threads that have to be closed. :mad:

If we don't as a forum tone it down and make life easier on the moderators it's apparent that a few kamikazi statements can and will have a thread shut down. That's a shame, since the vast majority seem to be able to disagree in a mostly civil manner.

I'd also like to appeal to Mark and all the moderators that rather than let this take place, the system of warnings and/or bannings be used more liberally. I don't subscribe to any of the paranoid accusations of bias and feel the moderators are more than capable of keeping all of us in line in a fair and reasonable way.

I feel some people push the boundries of the forum rules, knowing they can often get threads locked yet remain posting on the board. All that does is allow the few to destroy threads that the many can enjoy.

[wannabrcr]

And neither was the member in question in this case. The only action taken was to remove the offensive parts of the post. One was one sentence and the other was an attached image.

Generally, a PM warning would be sent for the first time and the post edited to remove it. Only on repeated behaviour would an infraction be made. With the exception of eggregious circumstances of course.

Excuse me for barging in on this conversation. I have been directed here by a member that is banned and I will not hide the fact. He did state that this would be a good venue to advertise our products depending on the cost etc.

He directed me to some of the comments as I want to make sure that this is a venue where I can best serve my company and not have it on a medium like the Limb--- show where I would have to pull all advertising.

I was directed by the user who was/is banned and the comment you have made to BDunnell is a blatant lie. You have deliberately used two posts to make your point Both by different members.

As the marketing VP of the company in the Southern part of the US I have to say that I am a little perturbed as to how you reason your actions and how you can deem the using # * or whatever symbol is a word. You assume you know the word and so take action. But, looking through all of the posts directed to me by the said former member who got a lifetime ban for this ###### I find that to be totally and completely narrow minded and we in the South are supposed to be so closed minded. For your information # and * are accepted by the Phamaceutical companies, press releases by government and the thousands of mugs my company makes for a healthcare system company. Why on earth is the forum, a part of Autoracing1 so above it that I would be left to conclude that you believe that the beeping of swear words on TV should have the shows or those speaking bleeped. So it would be Cheney, Biden and many others banned from my brief memory search be banned.
Another point, what do you mean "infraction" be made? You know that what you are saying is that you would act in an immoral and incorrect manner by doing something incorrect.

I have already inquired as to the advertising costs but have not yet received a reply.

I respect my colleague and employee and know him to be somewhat different to the person that many of you have portrayed him. It is a him. I see Airshifter constantly moaning and groaning and that is just this afternoon going through posts. He complains about whining yet he and studio (Estonia?) are the biggest whingers that I see.

Now, all that took about twenty minutes of my time but I am glad I did so.

I am a new member. This is my first journey to this forum. I have been to Indycar but just a couple of posts.

I woud hope that this post is viewed and some others see it. I am not brandishing a threat of negating any advertising efforts as that would be "narrow

minded" and that is not the purpose. I will continue to read the posts and hope that I hear from you in a Private Message which I see on your members list or a direct reply here on this thread. I would really love to hear how you justify what you perceive as distinct from what is reality.

[airshifter]

I respect my colleague and employee and know him to be somewhat different to the person that many of you have portrayed him. It is a him. I see Airshifter constantly moaning and groaning and that is just this afternoon going through posts. He complains about whining yet he and studio (Estonia?) are the biggest whingers that I see.



I'm glad to see that posting facts is offensive to those trolling the forums playing victim.

And oh by the way Mark, I was just going to spend my advertising budget of billions of dollars on your forum, but I changed my mind because a troll friend got in trouble. Friendship should come before the fact that huge numbers of people would see the ads after all. :D

[Mark]

It's hard work playing the persona of more than one person. Some are better at it than others, our above friend has not quite yet picked up the required skill set. He's not fooling anyone.

[BDunnell]

I see Airshifter constantly moaning and groaning and that is just this afternoon going through posts. He complains about whining yet he and studio (Estonia?) are the biggest whingers that I see.

What rubbish!

This has to be one of the finest posts ever on these forums, in its way.

[donKey jote]

I like the red cards left by Starter under wannabe's post... how come this mere mortal donkey can see them though, is it a new feature for increased transparency? :cornfused:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/infraction.php?do=view&p=1025623

[airshifter]

I like the red cards left by Starter under wannabe's post... how come this mere mortal donkey can see them though, is it a new feature for increased transparency? :cornfused:
http://www.motorsportforums.com/infraction.php?do=view&p=1025623

How did you even get to that linked page? I don't think I've any seen any infractions other than my own. :D

[donKey jote]

that's what I mean! :D
click on the red flags next to the "report post" icon at the bottom of post #63. :)

[airshifter]

that's what I mean! :D
click on the red flags next to the "report post" icon at the bottom of post #63. :)

Interesting. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have those up even when people are simply in the "penalty box". Such a system might warn other posters they could get dragged into the mud engaging them in forum discussion. :D

[donKey jote]

Interesting. It wouldn't be a bad idea to have those up even when people are simply in the "penalty box". Such a system might warn other posters they could get dragged into the mud engaging them in forum discussion. :D
:up:
I'd say give them donkey ears instead of red cards though :p

[airshifter]

:up:
I'd say give them donkey ears instead of red cards though :p

Ears for the penalty box, hoove marks for the long term donkey kick? :laugh:

It's a shame the adults can't act like adults. Another thread now closed due to that fact. I think half or more of the younger posters act much more adults than they older posters.

[Mark]

It's probably because most of the time a post is red carded it's also deleted. But we left this one up for the larfs.

He emailed me back again still protesting he's not the same person and he really does want to advertise here, even though he's banned :laugh:

[airshifter]

And I was going to spend millions on advertising!


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