Electric cars not a "green" solution.

[Bob Riebe]

UT Researchers Find China (http://www.utk.edu/tntoday/2012/02/13/researchers-find-ecar-emissions-harmful/)

I know an engineer over on a different forum who will find this most grievous.

I find the part about electric bicycles to be a bit silly, as if one uses a bicycle, pedaling would be more "green" and less expensive.

[Rollo]

The biggest single problem is fighting the First Law of Thermodynamics. Since a car whether it is electric or not, still fulfills the same function, the amount of energy required to perform that function is going to be identical. The biggest differences between petrol, diesel and electric cars are the position of the tailpipe and the relative inefficiencies and heat wastage of the cars.
Given that the amount of oil is limited, then electric cars are touted as a fix to solving the problem of shifting people about. I don't personally see that there will be one magic bullet which will be a cure all for the ills but rather a range of technologies which will make cars more efficient.

[FormerFF]

Electrics are far more efficient than are internal combustion engine cars. Even with transmission losses, the combination of an electric car + power generation plant uses less than half the energy as does an IC engined car. The article Bob cited is true of China. On the opposite extreme, look at France where nearly all the energy put into an electric would come from nuclear energy.

Another thing to consider is the length that we are now going to produce oil. Look at the inputs required and pollution created by tar sands oil in Canada. That oil is closer to a manufactured product than it is a source of energy considering the amount of natural gas required to produce it. That, and it literally creates lakes of toxic waste.

I think you'll find that those battery cells that need to be recycled from an electric car will be done so very cleanly, as their contents are valuable.

[FormerFF]

Speaking of coal fired powerplants:
AEAweb Journal Articles Display (http://www.aeaweb.org/articles.php?doi=10.1257/aer.101.5.1649)
This study contends that the pollution caused by coal fired powerplants greatly exceeds the value of the electricity they provide.

[Mark]

The way it presently works then it terms of CO2 emissions etc then electric cars are not particularly greener than their fossil fuelled counterparts, but I think this is to miss the point, namely that they can be. If you envisage a situation where the car is entirely charged from wind / solar / other renewable source then no fossil fuels will be required to run the car and the only energy it will require will be in the manufacturing process.

The idea of petrol + electric or diesel + electric is an important one (and I'm NOT talking about hybrids here), electric motors are superior in almost every aspect to petrol or diesel motors.

[Mark]

I find the part about electric bicycles to be a bit silly, as if one uses a bicycle, pedaling would be more "green" and less expensive.

True, however electric assistance with pedaling is interesting as it would open up the possibility of cycling to a destination that is for example very hilly that otherwise wouldn't occur. Which is greener, cycling a bicycle which has been charged at home from electricity, or driving a car to the destination?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

OK, lets shut down all the coal fired generation plants tomorrow. Might be hard to discuss it though. It's difficult to read a computer screen by the light of whale oil fired lamps. ;)

We'll go nuclear then. Oops, takes about twenty years to get one of those plants built from scratch. If the neighbors don't shoot you first.

Hydro then? Well we can't interfere with the life of the snail darter or salmon, can we?

Geothermal? Great if we can cut the population of the world to a size which can be served by places like Iceland, Yellowstone, etc. (And don't talk to me about the fate of the buffalo.)

Wind power? Think of all those poor birds who will fly into the blades.

Solar? All we have to do is cover every square inch of desert or other sunny area with the accumulators. Though there's probably a Gila Monster or two we'll need to save first.

My point being that, just as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us".

You're such a pessimist! :p

[Mark]

One other thought just occurred to me. This just applies to folks in the US as I'm not up to speed on the situation in other countries.

Let's say there's a new law that effective immediately all new vehicles MUST be electric. What is going to happen when between five and seven PM every weekday fifty million electric vehicles get plugged in for their nightly charge? Remembering that today on both the east and west coasts there are rolling brownouts because of the electric demand, especially in the summer. You need more than many clean electric generation plants to be built. The entire distribution infrastructure will have to be overhauled from the ground up.

Yes, but then that's all possible. We have a massive petrol / diesel distribution system after all.

Certainly in the UK we have the issue of "TV Pickups" - not as much now but certainly in the past there was a situation where when a popular TV programme ended the entire nation would switch the kettle on to make a cup of tea. We fill this through bringing hydro stations online quickly and using electricity imported from France.

[BDunnell]

I find the part about electric bicycles to be a bit silly, as if one uses a bicycle, pedaling would be more "green" and less expensive.

Yes, but, as Mark says, the idea is to encourage more people onto bicycles who wouldn't normally consider using them, and that must be a good thing. After all, the idea is that they should still do some pedalling.

An interesting point about pushbike development is that, according to a radio programme I heard last year, it would be perfectly possible significantly to update the standard current bike design — putting all the drive components inside the frame, installing an automatic gearbox and so on — and, naturally, render such machines gradually more affordable, but that the big manufacturers (largely in Asia) are scared to take the risk.

[Bob Riebe]

True, however electric assistance with pedaling is interesting as it would open up the possibility of cycling to a destination that is for example very hilly that otherwise wouldn't occur. Which is greener, cycling a bicycle which has been charged at home from electricity, or driving a car to the destination?If you have ever ridden a bike that has motor assist, I have, the set-up that is used to make it motor works makes the bicycle extremely hard to pedal.

Add that to the very limited range of electric motors, their non-use in winter in the Northern lands, and the idea loses any luster it had.

[BDunnell]

If you have ever ridden a bike that has motor assist, I have, the set-up that is used to make it motor works makes the bicycle extremely hard to pedal.

Add that to the very limited range of electric motors, their non-use in winter in the Northern lands, and the idea loses any luster it had.

When you say 'Northern lands', what do you mean? People still ride bikes in Scandinavia all winter.

[FormerFF]

OK, lets shut down all the coal fired generation plants tomorrow. Might be hard to discuss it though. It's difficult to read a computer screen by the light of whale oil fired lamps. ;)

We'll go nuclear then. Oops, takes about twenty years to get one of those plants built from scratch. If the neighbors don't shoot you first.

Hydro then? Well we can't interfere with the life of the snail darter or salmon, can we?

Geothermal? Great if we can cut the population of the world to a size which can be served by places like Iceland, Yellowstone, etc. (And don't talk to me about the fate of the buffalo.)

Wind power? Think of all those poor birds who will fly into the blades.

Solar? All we have to do is cover every square inch of desert or other sunny area with the accumulators. Though there's probably a Gila Monster or two we'll need to save first.

My point being that, just as Pogo said, "We have met the enemy and he is us".


No one said anything about an immediate change. The first step is to not build any more coal plants. In most of the developed world, this is already the case. Next, start phasing out the oldest, dirtiest coal plants and replace them with natural gas, nuclear, and renewables. Where I live (Georgia, USA) this is also taking place. A consortium of utilities just received a permit to add units to nuclear plan Vogtle, and have plans to retire some of their older coal plants. They are also contracting for more solar.

The price of solar is declining and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The price of fossil fuels have nowhere to go but up. I expect that by the middle of the next decade it will be cost efficient to recharge electric cars with solar, and that there will be enough solar built to make it practical for a decent sized fleet. I'd also expect gasoline to at least double in price.

None of this stuff happens overnight, so the time to start is now. Electrics aren't 100 percent practical today, but I think you'll find that within a very few years that they will be a very good option for one car in a two car family. It's an immature technology but it is advancing rapidly. Also, have you driven a Leaf? It makes an internal combustion powered car seem very last century. If you put a younger driver in an electric for the first two years of his or her driving career, I think you'll find it very difficult to get them into an ICE powered car.

BTW, the newer slow turning wind turbines don't kill many birds.

[Mark]

But you could say that about fossil fuels at any point, that we shouldn't use anything at all because 'it might run out'. Certainly in the UK we have plenty of coal - but no mines to get it out. One conservative (small c) estimate is that at current consumption we have enough reserves for 400 years of usage - just the small matter of all the CO2 that would release.

[SGWilko]

BTW, the newer slow turning wind turbines don't kill many birds.

This obsession with killing birds is illogical and a complete red herring. How many animals die on the worlds roads every year and no fecker bats an eyelid?!

[SGWilko]

just the small matter of all the CO2 that would release.

...not to mention the egg on faces due to the money that was/is spent on maintaining 'closed' pits, the mass redundancies and general ill feeling over the miners' strikes.........

[FormerFF]

In my situation, a Leaf or electric Focus would be practical since we're a two car family. While I'm not thrilled with my electric provider, I'd rather support them and their overwhelmingly American energy suppliers than that host of bad actors that control so much of the world's petroleum supplies (Ahmadinejad, Putin, Chavez, etc), plus all those wonderful Wall Street folk who brought us $147 crude in 2008. I don't know about you, but whenever I put the pump nozzle in the car I feel like a chump.

[SGWilko]

$147 crude in 2008. I don't know about you, but whenever I put the pump nozzle in the car I feel like a chump.

Well, over here, the cost of diesel at the forecourt is above the 2008 highs. I never fill up without first using a website to locate the cheapest non-supermarket fuel station in my area, or I find one that will be on my route. Quite often, on a 60+ litre fillup I save an average of £3-4 by doing this.

Fuel prices that are so high are also a big incentive to change driving habits. This is one reason why so many new diesel cars keep breaking down, because the Euro IV emissions requires a DPF on diesels, which have to - get this for efficiency - burn more fuel at higher revs to regenerate. Of course, if you are driving to save fuel, the chances are that you will never breach the 2500+ RPM level to enable this regeneration, so the DPF cloggs up. Stunning eh?

[schmenke]

Diesel.

Road transportation is a major contributor to greenhouse gas emissions.

I recall reading an article recently (no, I don’t have the source) that suggested a significant reduction in annual greenhouse gas emissions could be achieved if commuters in North America drove a 4-cyl. diesel powered vehicle during their daily rush hour commute alone. This study mentioned that this scenario is by far “cleaner” than solutions that involve electric or petrol-electric hybrid vehicles.

[Mark]

Then you'd end up with a situation like the UK where a significant number of people have switched to diesel - around 50% of new cars sold are diesel now. And yet the refineries are still geared up for when petrol was the most in demand, and it's too expensive to change. Therefore we end up having to import diesel from elsewhere and the price goes up.

Yes i am totally agree with that....As you should know 85% of the electricity needed to charge up an electric vehicle comes from non-renewable energy. So this begs the question Electric cars are a Green Solution.

[Mark]

Yes i am totally agree with that....As you should know 85% of the electricity needed to charge up an electric vehicle comes from non-renewable energy. So this begs the question Electric cars are a Green Solution.

Are? No, could they be? Yes!

[Malbec]

In my situation, a Leaf or electric Focus would be practical since we're a two car family. While I'm not thrilled with my electric provider, I'd rather support them and their overwhelmingly American energy suppliers than that host of bad actors that control so much of the world's petroleum supplies (Ahmadinejad, Putin, Chavez, etc), plus all those wonderful Wall Street folk who brought us $147 crude in 2008. I don't know about you, but whenever I put the pump nozzle in the car I feel like a chump.

You hit the nail there right on the head.

Alternative power sources aren't about the environment, its about reducing reliance on oil (and indirectly some unpleasant states), improving trade balances and also about shifting pollution from one place to another, namely from cities with a high population density to power stations with a low population density. For many developing countries paying for oil drains their dollar reserves, money that can be useful in other areas.

Seen through that prism it makes perfect sense for the Chinese to push for electric cars even though they have the dirtiest coal fired powerstations on the planet or for the Prius to be the patriotic American choice since it helps reduces reliance on Middle Eastern oil.

In those countries where the population can see the clear strategic benefit from shifting away from petrol I think alternative fuel sources can work. Unfortunately though, in countries without those concerns uptake of electric cars and the like is going to be down purely to two things, cost and convenience. At the moment, electric cars can't win on those two fronts against petrol or Diesel.

[schmenke]

An e-car around here would not only have to range 300+ miles, but do so plowing through snow in the middle of a -30 deg. evening with lights, wipers and heater all on full :mark: .

I too currently prefer the "quick charge" option :D