IPS vs Indy Lights - Best Preparation for IndyCars?

[Giuseppe F1]

Obviously IndyLights is now defunct yet I was wondering...

looking at the viability of say F3000 vs GP2 as preparation for F1, think it is fair to say that everyone in the whole racing community from drivers and teams to the fans are in agreeance that GP2 prepares a driver much better for F1 than F3000 ever did owing to a formula that is much closer to F1 in terms of aero and also particularly the tyres (even more so now owing to F1s control Bridgestone which GP2 uses a close variant of)

Anyway, to get to my question, was discussing with a friend the other day, obviosuly Indylights is now defunct and an IndyLight and IndyCar pro are different beasts and indeed the eras of IndyCar from IndyLights days to IndyPro days are also very different beasts - yet looking at the RESPECTIVE eras of IndyLights and IndyPro and with the benefit of rational hindsight, which formula overall in your opinion proved/proves to be the better prepartion formula for the IndyCar series directly above it in the ladder at the time.

I.e. In the way we now say GP2 prepares drivers for F1 MUCH better than F3000 ever did, can the same be said for IndyPro over IndyLights?

(Not to put anyone out yet If anyone has one to hand - a tech spec comparison of an IndyLight and IndyPro package would also be greatly appreciated)

P.S: Am also intrested to realise what engines IndyLights used during it tenure - Am I right in thinking GM engines branded as Buicks was one?


Many thanks

Giuseppe F1

[Jonesi]

Obviously IndyLights is now defunct yet I was wondering...

looking at the viability of say F3000 vs GP2 as preparation for F1, think it is fair to say that everyone in the whole racing community from drivers and teams to the fans are in agreeance that GP2 prepares a driver much better for F1 than F3000 ever did owing to a formula that is much closer to F1 in terms of aero and also particularly the tyres (even more so now owing to F1s control Bridgestone which GP2 uses a close variant of)

Anyway, to get to my question, was discussing with a friend the other day, obviosuly Indylights is now defunct and an IndyLight and IndyCar pro are different beasts and indeed the eras of IndyCar from IndyLights days to IndyPro days are also very different beasts - yet looking at the RESPECTIVE eras of IndyLights and IndyPro and with the benefit of rational hindsight, which formula overall in your opinion proved/proves to be the better prepartion formula for the IndyCar series directly above it in the ladder at the time.

I.e. In the way we now say GP2 prepares drivers for F1 MUCH better than F3000 ever did, can the same be said for IndyPro over IndyLights?

(Not to put anyone out yet If anyone has one to hand - a tech spec comparison of an IndyLight and IndyPro package would also be greatly appreciated)

P.S: Am also intrested to realise what engines IndyLights used during it tenure - Am I right in thinking GM engines branded as Buicks was one?

Many thanks
Giuseppe F1


I've been working on a Formula car chart, but it's far from complete.
Buick V6s were used from '86 to '01, can't remember if these were real GM engineered or badged Cosworth/Ilmor/Judd something??

Formula One has a poor record on support series. I wouldn't call GP2 a success yet. They all were for a couple of years: Formula Junior, F2, Euro F3, F3000. Give GP2 5-8 years and see what problems develope.

Any support/development race series is a compromise. With top series running about 700-800hp, on paper a support series of 500-600hp sounds like a good idea, but is it too expensive, and is it already too much hp for some drivers? A 250-300hp (generally 4 cyl) series is cost effective, and usually have full grids, but is it too little power to properly train racers? The best model would probably be 30 car 3rd tier series & 20 car 2nd tier, but nobody's ever gotten it right.

Ideally what's needed would be a 500hp North American Road Racing Championship. It would run as the featured support event for every North American F1 (& A1GP) race, and every Champ Car, IRL & Nascar Cup Road race. Maybe a couple of high profile street races like Long Beach too. After five years there would be more NA drivers in CC & IRL and a way to get into F1 without moving to Europe. It will never happen!

[ZzZzZz]

I think Atlantics did a better job of preparing drivers than IndyLights. This was generally realized when Jacques Villenueve skipped the half-step and jumped straight into CART. The top American series are currently filled with Atlantics grads.

The silly thing is CART paid something like $20M to but IndyLights from Forsythe and $500K for Atlantics from SCCA.

[Giuseppe F1]

Thanks for all of the feedback guys - very much appreciated.

However, as this point was to settle a discussion a friend and I was having, a comparison with regards to IndyLights and IndyPro specifically would very much be appreciated

Many thanks in advance

Giuseppe F1

[Peter Olivola]

There's no way to settle the discussion now. It will take a few more years before the drivers progressing through IPS have had the same opportunities as the Indy Lites grads. Only then will it be possible to compare them to Tony Kannan, Helio Castro-Neves, Cristiano Damatta, etc.


Thanks for all of the feedback guys - very much appreciated.

However, as this point was to settle a discussion a friend and I was having, a comparison with regards to IndyLights and IndyPro specifically would very much be appreciated

Many thanks in advance

Giuseppe F1

[Civic]

Wheldon said the Lights Lolas were "top heavy" and he liked the Atlantic car better.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Atlantics are the best North American based OW series going to watch now, and provide the best training ground. For whatever reason, the IPS isn't doing it, and I am not sure why. IT is easier to take road racers and teach them the ways of ovals, then take oval racers from Sprint or Midget and teach them to turn right. Modern IRL and Champ Cars are essentially road racing cars that just turn left on ovals but react as other OW formula cars do, so road racing people coming up through this system adapt much quicker. The problem I always had with the original formula TG had for the IRL was he wanted more sprint and midget guys to be able to run Indy, and he wanted them to have the opportunity. Then he allowed the cars to bascially be what they had been under CART. That is, OW designs that are evolutionary from CART and road racing designs. It is another another world of racing from what the upright and front engined USAC guys are used to, and they just couldn't make the leap. The IPS I think was designed to make that transition, but the reality is that Atlantics have put more top drivers in OW cockpits in the IRL and road racing series have always put up the top drivers in the IRL. It is a reality that TG wanted to address and never really did, and the IPS will not change this.

The IPS may produce some good drivers in time, but as it stands right now, It is a lot of money to try to supplant what is a good series, Formula Atlantic. The only thing the Atlantics don't teach is oval etiquette, but as we have seen, it hasn't hurt Danica Patrick, Dan Wheldon, Tony Kanaan and a few others has it?

[Jonesi]

Whether or not IPS does a good prep job or not, they need a supporting event or two. Not building it up, they continue to slide into supporting event themselves for ALMS, GrandAm, Nascar Busch.

[weeflyonthewall]

Is Roger "INDYLIGHTS" Bailey still running the show? DAAAAAHHHHHH. At least he found a home for those 'ol Infiniti V8's.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Those Infiniti v8's sound a hell of a lot more like race cars than the Indy Light v6's....god they sounded BAD.

They do need a good support series to fill out IRL weekends, and THAT is the real reason for the IPS.

[weeflyonthewall]

I thought the Indy Lights sounded like UPS trucks with bad mufflers.
Too bad the IRL didn't adopt the Atlantic formula. It would have been a good home for the older Toyota engines. Some Atlantic teams may have entertained running a mixed season.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Weefly, it would be a good way for the IRL and CCWS to approach a merger by by owning half of the Atlantics and using the series to support both of their series at selected events. Of course, if they could do this, they would have that merger...oh hell, they wont go for it....makes too much bloody sense!

[ZzZzZz]

Weefly, it would be a good way for the IRL and CCWS to approach a merger by by owning half of the Atlantics and using the series to support both of their series at selected events. Of course, if they could do this, they would have that merger...oh hell, they wont go for it....makes too much bloody sense!

IPS and Atlantics each have only 12 races, which is far from enough as a proper training ground. Why not have one series with 20 races supporting both IC and CC. More competitive, more exposure, more experience...

[Peter Olivola]

More expensive.


IPS and Atlantics each have only 12 races, which is far from enough as a proper training ground. Why not have one series with 20 races supporting both IC and CC. More competitive, more exposure, more experience...

[openwheeler]

IPS and Atlantics each have only 12 races, which is far from enough as a proper training ground. Why not have one series with 20 races supporting both IC and CC. More competitive, more exposure, more experience...

Nope, 16 races for the Indy Pro Series - and a great mix of course types also

[ZzZzZz]

Ah, 12 was last year. I see they have 4 double headers now.

[openwheeler]

right, that's 12 race weekends compared to 10 for Atlantics

6 and 1/2 months start to finish compared to 4 for Atlantics

throw in a race at Indy on the oval and one as part of the USGP on the road course

[weeflyonthewall]

right, that's 12 race weekends compared to 10 for Atlantics

6 and 1/2 months start to finish compared to 4 for Atlantics

throw in a race at Indy on the oval and one as part of the USGP on the road course


And that makes IPS a better training ground?

[openwheeler]

And that makes IPS a better training ground?

umm, for Indy? yes it does, IMHO, lol

[Civic]

I remember being shocked that Indy Lights was a support race to an IRL race a few years ago.

[Giuseppe F1]

How come, Civic?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Gisuppe, because at the time Indy Lights was OWNED and run by CART basically, so to have them backing up the the IRL was ummm supporting the other side?

[openwheeler]

Indy Pro Series runs with Formula 1, and then there's the shortlived pairing with NASCAR Trucks at Vegas

plus Forsythe inviting Busch to come race in Mexico seemed more odd to me