Alberto Contador-To Dope or not to Dope

[race aficionado]

doping in sports - and in this case, again, cycling, makes you wonder: what gives?

Alberto Contador has ben disqualified and penalized financially and personally - and reading the spanish press and his interviews, he assures (of course) his innocence and is supported by many. - and on the other side of the spectrum many agree and even point at Rafa Nadal as a possible culprit.

do they? don't they? who is getting away with it?

I say let them all get pumped up and see who explodes first. :bomb:

:s mokin:

[Mark]

The thing is that everyone knew Contador was cheating, but there was nothing anybody could do about it.

It's been a massive issue in pro-cycling for decades now and it's got to the point that if you are good it's assumed that you are taking drugs!

[driveace]

Do a drugs test immediatly after every event,whatever type of sport it is.for the first 3 finishers,or even the first four,so that if one of the top 3 is disqualified,the next man up will have been tested too If they refuse a drugs test,fine but they lose the result,and the next time they refuse ,Ban them !!!

[F1boat]

In cycling there is only one real rule IMO - don't get caught. Sport is not what it should be. :(

[GridGirl]

I recently read the Team Sky book and they are attempting to ensure everyone is 100% drug free. All of their vehicles are liveried up and they openly invite the powers that be to test, test, test their riders. When selecting their riders they also went into great analysis of the bio-passports and said that some riders were instantly rejcted as things didnt quite match up.

I suppose the thing with Contador is that eveyone hates him. He gets done for drugs and gets banned and most people think good riddance until August.

[N4D13]

While there's a case against Contador -there was clenbuterol in his urine, and that means getting an immediate ban-, I must admit that I find it rather absurd. He's been penalized because of a tiny amount of clenbuterol - so little that it couldn't have had any effect on his performance - was found.

He might have doped, but the fact remains that the only thing that is held against him is the clenbuterol in his urine, which is the only thing that has been proven. A forbidden substance was found in his urine in such a small concentration that it couldn't have had any beneficial effect, but it was still forbidden, so he's got himself a ban. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that he doped - why would him administer himself a drug which is easy to detect, in such a small concentration that it wouldn't have had any effect? There's a number of explanations, some of them more likely than others, but the fact is that clenbuterol alone doesn't prove that he doped. It cannot and it hasn't been proved that he did - it's just that clenbuterol is forbidden and, for some reason, he had it in his urine. Whether it was intentionally or not, we won't know.

[janneppi]

In endurance sport the best time to do test would be before the start, especially in Tour-like races. It's been suggested that cyclist use small doses of EPO the night before which is not detected the next day after the race. You'd have a better chance to get some of the less professianal dopers that way.

[monadvspec]

I'm sorry to see that Contador was stripped of his title (is that correct) the drug he took is very interesting or given to him.Clenbuteral is a very significant beta 2 agonist which means it is selective sympathomimetic amine which helps people with COPD breath easier.
The big problem is that the there is the issue of hypertension. This is significant particularly when there is so much strain on the heart and although this drug is a specific bronchodilator constriction of the the pulmonary vein may occur thereby causing a decrease of oxygenated blood to the heart.
There was a book written on cycling and it's many problems with doping by a former professional cyclist named Paul Kimmage. He was one of the first to bring to light the rampant abuse. At that time the cyclists injected a steroid into their leg or some more obvious method. This was the late 80's and 90's before EPA testing.
It then got more sophisticated and difficult to detect.
Recall Festina being kicked out of the tour when they were found to have a trunk load of illegal performance enhancing drugs in the trunk of the car prior to the start of the race in Dublin.
Speculation that Lance Armsrtong was using, Levi Leipheimer (sic) Contador, Roche and many others.
What about Mark Cavendish? Sprinters winning after long mountain stages is also unheard of and it is sad that there is a cloud cast on his magnificent tour of 2011.

[MrJan]

I'm amazed that people treat cycling as the only pro-sport where there is doping. To my mind the difference with cycling is that they make an issue out of drug cheats, rather than sweeping the issue under the carpet. Say what you want in cycling, it's clear that people are trying to make it a clean sport. However I find it hard to believe that sprinters are doping, because much of cycling doping is about stamina during a stage, rather than just the outright power required for a sprint finish. Also remember that Cav was so far behind on at least 2 of the mountain stages that he would have been disqualified were he not in such a large bunch, hardly the act of a guy that's doping.

To my mind Contador is guilty, the 'contaminated meat' argument is such bull****.

As for the next scandal, well I'm amazed that Cadel Evans didn't throw up a positive, I've never seen so many mood swings from one person.

[Alexamateo]

.....

To my mind Contador is guilty, the 'contaminated meat' argument is such bull****.

........

Except it could be true. I don't know about Spain, but in Mexico it's a huge problem. The farmers group and the country said they police it and it's not a problem, but the evidence says otherwise.

SoccerAmerica - Doping tests reveal clenbuterol in U-17 World Cup players 10/17/2011 (http://www.socceramerica.com/article/44244/doping-tests-reveal-clenbuterol-in-u-17-world-cup.html)

from the article:

Of the 24 U-17 squads involved, 19 had several players showing the presence of clenbuterol. A laboratory in Cologne discovered the presence of the steroid in 109 of the 208 samples -- 52.4 percent -- but most in concentrations lower than the banned level so they had not been reported. Clenbuterol is banned in farming in most countries but is used to speed up growth and increase muscle mass in cattle.

Think about that, 19 squads in the youth tournament and 52% of the players tested positive albeit for low levels.

Mexico lost 5 senior players in the Gold Cup, and it was determined that it truly was contaminated meat. Like the Spanish farmers and officials, Mexican officials said that their meat products were not contaminated, but in the end it was.

It affects me not one way or the other, but when it comes to Clenbuterol, I am inclined to believe Contador's story.

some more background:

http://www.meatpoultry.com/News/News%20Home/Global/2011/10/Doping%20case%20against%20Mexico%20soccer%20player s%20dropped.aspx


WADA said it accepted FIFA's "compelling evidence" from the recent Under-17 World Cup in Mexico that the country has a "serious health problem" with meat contaminated with clenbuterol.

FIFA accumulated the evidence while working with the government of Mexico. "The studies conducted by FIFA showed the correctness of the footballers' claim that the positive samples were the result of meat they had ingested at a training camp ahead of the tournament," the governing body of international soccer said.

[Malbec]

I'm amazed that people treat cycling as the only pro-sport where there is doping. To my mind the difference with cycling is that they make an issue out of drug cheats, rather than sweeping the issue under the carpet. Say what you want in cycling, it's clear that people are trying to make it a clean sport. However I find it hard to believe that sprinters are doping, because much of cycling doping is about stamina during a stage, rather than just the outright power required for a sprint finish. Also remember that Cav was so far behind on at least 2 of the mountain stages that he would have been disqualified were he not in such a large bunch, hardly the act of a guy that's doping.


Its the sport where doping makes the biggest difference though.

Cycling performance is basically only limited by the ability of the lungs to take up oxygen so the body can sustain aerobic activity for as long as it has energy. The ability of the lungs to take up oxygen is pretty much established genetically and cannot be increased through training after a certain point. Its a bit like telling every racing driver at the start of their careers that they are limited to a certain maximum engine capacity for the rest of their lives. However good one guy is, if another guy has a better VO2 max there is nothing he can do about it to catch up except dope. I can see the temptations.

[MrJan]

I found it interesting how Contador struggled at the Tour last year when he'd dominated in previous seasons, almost like something was different about him. My cynical mind decided that it was down to him not doping due to being aware that he was under scrutiny having already been 'caught'.

[Alexamateo]

I found it interesting how Contador struggled at the Tour last year when he'd dominated in previous seasons, almost like something was different about him. My cynical mind decided that it was down to him not doping due to being aware that he was under scrutiny having already been 'caught'.

Oh he may very well be guilty, but I am inclined to believe his story about the clenbuterol.

[Ranger]

While there's a case against Contador -there was clenbuterol in his urine, and that means getting an immediate ban-, I must admit that I find it rather absurd. He's been penalized because of a tiny amount of clenbuterol - so little that it couldn't have had any effect on his performance - was found.

I remember reading that last year and thought about the same thing when the punishment was read out.

It's just an ugly situation for the entire sport. :\


I found it interesting how Contador struggled at the Tour last year when he'd dominated in previous seasons, almost like something was different about him. My cynical mind decided that it was down to him not doping due to being aware that he was under scrutiny having already been 'caught'.

A simpler explanation would be that he crashed 4 times and injured himself in the first half of the 2011 tour - bad fortune more than anything.

[AndyRAC]

Poor Bertie, (also known as Dopador, Contadope, Clentador, Bertie the Accountant)

Technically, he's guilty - as an athlete is responsible for everything they take. Even though it's a minute amount - he has to prove were it came from. So, where did it come from? Dodgy beef, dodgy food supplement, or maybe something more serious, i;e blood doping? As there were reports of plasticisers....which hints at blood doping - but this has been discounted.
They have traced the butcher, the farmer, the chef - everything except the cow.......Was it really a dodgy steak? Who knows.....

What I will say is that there have been rumours before about Bertie, particularly regarding Operacion Puerto, but nothing could ever be proved. However, what OP did prove is that its not just cycling that has huge doping problems; football, tennis, etc were implicated in OP, but no names were mentioned - only the cyclists.
If anybody thinks cycling is the only sport with a doping problem - then they're living in cuckoo land. Cycling is the most rigorously tested sport on the planet - most of the others pay lip service.
I have no doubt that football, rugby, baseball, gridiron, etc are riddled with doping - but try to keep it quiet.

Chapeau to cycling!!

[Jefe Máximo]

Haven't really followed this one at all. In fact the first I heard of it in a while was while watching Hardtalk today. I gather that the Spanish cycling federation is taking on the International federation over the ban?

Strange one that..

[race aficionado]

Haven't really followed this one at all. In fact the first I heard of it in a while was while watching Hardtalk today. I gather that the Spanish cycling federation is taking on the International federation over the ban?

Strange one that..

What! Jefe Máximo??? The Y-Man himself?????

Boy, it takes some dope to get him out of the weeds.

Nice hearing from you Jefe! :D

. . . and back to topic: Stop this war on enhancement drugs and let's see them brake some more records. And if they croak in the process, well tough luck Sherlock! It was their bright decision.

I just don't see honesty in sports with so much $$$$ and ego involved.
As a race, we are not that evolved yet.

:s mokin:

[N4D13]

A simpler explanation would be that he crashed 4 times and injured himself in the first half of the 2011 tour - bad fortune more than anything.
You've got to take into account that he'd dominated the 2011 Giro as well, where he'd been doing exhibitions day after day, making the rest of riders look bad. You just can't expect anybody to keep that level for that long.

Anyway, as I said, it's a shame that he's losing a Tour and a Giro for that. Yes, there was a tiny amount of clenbuterol in his urine, but I've already said that it couldn't have had any effect on his performance. And yes, he might have doped, but there's no evidence for that. Someone above has mentioned plasticisers, but even those can't prove that he used blood doping, as there are legal ways of recovering from the races that would cause a rider to have them in their blood - that's why they cannot be used to prove that a rider is doping.

So, basically, Contador is getting a two-year ban because that is what the rulebook says. But there's no evidence to prove that he doped - he might have, but that's never enough. All the other riders in the peloton might have doped as well, and there's no evidence to prove that they doped either.

[odykas]

In cycling there is only one real rule IMO - don't get caught. Sport is not what it should be. :(

A great sport has been ruined by drugs :(

[Jefe Máximo]

What! Jefe Máximo??? The Y-Man himself?????

Boy, it takes some dope to get him out of the weeds.

Nice hearing from you Jefe! :D

. . . and back to topic: Stop this war on enhancement drugs and let's see them brake some more records. And if they croak in the process, well tough luck Sherlock! It was their bright decision.

I just don't see honesty in sports with so much $$$$ and ego involved.
As a race, we are not that evolved yet.

:s mokin:

Ha! ;) Hey race. Missed you mate.


You know, it's a bit of a useless 'war' in that sense. There is no end in sight when it comes to performance enhancement drugs. As some are banned, others will inevitably be synthesised which in time will be detected and banned.... It's never ending.
We like to believe in unaided human feat when it comes to our sports stars, but so much of it is illusion.

[odykas]

[Off Topic]

Senza is back :eek: :D http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/42/267742/1/54567006.bowdown.gif[/img[[IMG]file:///tmp/moz-screenshot-1.png

[janneppi]

Someone above has mentioned plasticisers, but even those can't prove that he used blood doping, as there are legal ways of recovering from the races that would cause a rider to have them in their blood - that's why they cannot be used to prove that a rider is doping.
The only reason plasticisers are to be found in someones blood is that they have had a blood transfusion(?), which is forbidden in sports. They didn't penalize him for that though, apparently because the test itself isnt validated. So they got him on a technicality instead.



So, basically, Contador is getting a two-year ban because that is what the rulebook says.
We', isn't that why the rules exist? ;)

[Garry Walker]

doping in sports - and in this case, again, cycling, makes you wonder: what gives?

Alberto Contador has ben disqualified and penalized financially and personally - and reading the spanish press and his interviews, he assures (of course) his innocence and is supported by many. - and on the other side of the spectrum many agree and even point at Rafa Nadal as a possible culprit.

do they? don't they? who is getting away with it?

I say let them all get pumped up and see who explodes first. :bomb:

:s mokin:

Who has blamed Nadal?

[N4D13]

The only reason plasticisers are to be found in someones blood is that they have had a blood transfusion(?), which is forbidden in sports. They didn't penalize him for that though, apparently because the test itself isnt validated. So they got him on a technicality instead.
I'm gonna look into it, but I'm sure that I read somewhere that there are more explanations.


We', isn't that why the rules exist? ;)
The fact that rules exists doesn't mean that they're fair. They try to be fair, but sometimes they're not. The fact is that clenbuterol is a forbidden substance, and cyclists must not have it in their body, regardless of the concentration at which it is found. I don't want to sound like a broken record, but basically, the amount of clenbuterol was such that he couldn't have gained any performance for that. So getting a two-year ban for that can't be fair, at least not in my (not quite humble, I must admit) opinion.

Anyway, if you're right and the only reason because of which plasticisers are found is having had a blood transfusion, then I'll believe that the penalty is actually fair, although not for having used clenbuterol, but because of a blood transfusion.


Who has blamed Nadal?
I know that a French TV show has mocked Contador and hinted in not quite a subtle way that Nadal has doped. This hasn't been really appreciated in Spain, and it's been widely criticized, but, quite frankly, I find it pointless. It's a humour TV show and that's the kind of stuff they show every day.

Now, as for whether someone has decided that Nadal might be responsible in any manner for Contador's doping case, I don't know. It sounds like a rather absurd claim, anyway.

[janneppi]

I know that a French TV show has mocked Contador and hinted in not quite a subtle way that Nadal has doped. This hasn't been really appreciated in Spain, and it's been widely criticized, but, quite frankly, I find it pointless. It's a humour TV show and that's the kind of stuff they show every day.


Until Spanish autorities have the moral backbone to continue with Operation Puerta, suggestions that tennis- and football players got away scott free will arise. At the moment Spanish sport and antidoping federations aren't held in high regard in rest of europe because of that.

[monadvspec]

This is killing cycling. I wonder if the book Paul Kimmage wrote about doping and the assertion that Lance Armstron and Greg LeMond were also using EPA or some other substance.
I'm sure Mark Cavendish will be under a lot of scrutiny now that he has won sprints in mountain stages, unheard of for a sprinter. Most go home prior to the mountains.

I am of course speaking of Le Tour de France.

[Dave B]

Of course Lewis Hamilton hasn't denied being involved, has he Baggy? Very suspicious. I wonder if he's trying to hide anything :p

[Jefe Máximo]

[Off Topic]

Senza is back :eek: :D http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/42/267742/1/54567006.bowdown.gif[/img[[IMG]file:///tmp/moz-screenshot-1.png


And here was me fearing that the austerity measures would leave you without a computer. ;)

odylicious.

[Eki]

[Off Topic]

Senza is back :eek: :D http://ic2.pbase.com/o4/42/267742/1/54567006.bowdown.gif[/img[[IMG]file:///tmp/moz-screenshot-1.png

Jefe Maximo is back :eek: :D

[Jefe Máximo]

Indeed. Missed you Sardoneki.

[Eki]

Now we can start guessing where you have been, in a monastery, military, prison or a mental asylum. My guess is mental asylum, the same as Ibby.

[race aficionado]

Now we can start guessing where you have been, . . . . My guess is mental asylum, the same as Ibby.

and to keep on topic: all doped up . . . . .

[EuroTroll]

How about doped up in a mental asylum in a military prison that used to be a monastery. :)

Good to have you back, Jefe. :wave:

[GridGirl]

and to keep on topic: all doped up . . . . .

As it happens, Ibby will be spending tomorrow doing a 25 mile mountain bike ride and Sunday completeing a 50 mile ride on his road bike. He shall be taking on carbohydrates and electrolytes but has not yet graduated to doping as far as I am aware. :eek:

[Mark]

Perhaps he should :D

[odykas]

And here was me fearing that the austerity measures would leave you without a computer. ;)

odylicious.

Luckily I bought a laptop 2 years ago.
I will keep posting here as long as I have electricity and internet :p :

I see another poster mentioned a journalist name Paul Kimmage. Please excuse any errors as my computer is set to American English. Paul Kimmage was a domestique, a bright guy. He wrote a book about doping and it really hit a nerve. Among those accused and I can't recall if I am totally correct on some.
One poster mentioned Cavendish. Great sprinter. No one around to beat him and better still he is from the Isle of Man. Have seen Joey Dunlop there. Dunlop included, these guys are brave (maybe foolish). I am unable to describe the actual road suffice it to say if it were 20 ft wide that my be an exaggeration.

Those accused of doping were Sean Kelly (World #1 for most of the peak of his cycling career), Stephen Roche, Tour De France winner in 'I believe along with the the Giro De'Italia and world championship.
Someone mentioned sprinters do not take or in the past taken drugs to improve their performance. That is incorrect. The analogy used was he raced in a pack and thus qualified for this.

Of course he did. They preserve energy as much as they can for sprint days, want to stay in touch with the race to finish, and they also have the incentive of more sprint wins. They know about finishing in the pack. No official will ban 20 or thirty cyclists. At the end coming into Paris 40 cyclists would look dismissal.