Senna has signed for Williams

[Koz]

Senna to Williams.

Bye, bye Rubens.

[Koz]

If we have to have 2 threads on this, here is my original post:


I beat ya to it Koz ner ner ner ner :p :)

First, you beat me by less than a minute.
When I went to the F1 lobby, I confused myself.
:(

I need sleep. :D

[Mia 01]

I´m curious, why are Williams competing in F1, when they not hire a driver with some good experience?

[Koz]

I´m curious, why are Williams competing in F1, when they not hire a driver with some good experience?

Well... It was always about producing the best car... They can't seem to do that these days, does it really matter who drives for them?
All, it seems, Sir Frank cares about is being in F1 - even if it is financed by pay driver and at the back of the grid.

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Some think Rubens would have been better. I'm not convinced. But even if he is better, he isn't that much better than compensate for $16 million in sponsorship. It's a good move and if you were a team owner responsible for the livelihood of hundreds, you'd have done the same.

[truefan72]

Williams has officially hit rock bottom

When they are so broke they can't sign an immensely more qualified driver in Sutil
or retain an adequate Rubens, who at his advanced racing age is still much better than either pastor or Senna, then you know the end is near for this historic team

oh, and yes senna, they did sign you because of the money

As to sutil, this might be a blessing in disguise
Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault might have openings next year.

[F1boat]

First of all, I wish to Bruno best of luck and good health! I hope that his career is revived as well as the team :)

[jens]

Somehow I don't expect Williams to finish above P9 in WCC this year. Of course I shall not blame drivers for it, they are not that bad, but I don't expect any miracles either, when the going gets tough. Except perhaps some impressive qualifying runs.

[Mekola]

I´m curious, why are Williams competing in F1, when they not hire a driver with some good experience?
Sutil could have been that driver with good experience, but he messed up with legal issues that could imprison him.
Let's give Bruno another chance, HRT was a backmarker and LRGP was only partial to judge him that early. But Williams should have a better pack than 2011 one if both Bruno and Pastor would want to score points this year.

[Robinho]

Sutil may well be going to jail, and even if he isn't its hardly good publicity. Rubens definately is not getting any quicker, he might say his motivation is still there, but I think he's given all he can give and in his time there so far hasn't moved the team forward.

Senna may not be the second coming, but his name means exposure, he does come with some money and he is a decent driver with a real chance of improving when given a proper pre season, testing and a safe seat. In the position they were in, I think only Sutil would have been a better driver option, but all the crap he is bringing negates a lot of that. However, this is Senna's last and only chance to prove he belongs. He has a proper chance in a half decent car for a whole season. I will judge him based on that, rather than the aborted previous seasons in a dog of a car and a part season in a rapidally declining car.

[The Black Knight]

It's a shame to see a team like Williams, a once constructor's champion with multple WDC's having sunk to this level of having two pay drivers. While I think Bruno Senna will be a good addition to the team, I really can't see anywhere but down for William's. They'll be fighting with Caterham this year I reckon, that is if they are lucky. They made some changes this year but if this is the road they are taking, I don't see any improvements happening quickly.

[Stuartf12007]

This is a good signing for Williams, Senna will do well.

[ioan]

This is a good signing for Williams, Senna will do well.

Just like he did for HRT and Lotus Renault. Oh wait, he actually wasn't doing that good.

[CNR]

If we have to have 2 threads on this, here is my original post:


I beat ya to it Koz ner ner ner ner :p :)

http://www.motorsportforums.com/f1/149362-2012-silly-season-grid-lineup-3.html#post998672
Yesterday 21:12 :D :o

Autosprint said Senna has amassed an impressive EUR14 million in major Brazilian sponsorship, including OGX, an oil giant headed by billionaire Eike Batista.

[CNR]

Greg Murphy hands over his #51 plate « « Speedcafe Booths Speedcafe Booths (http://booths.speedcafe.com.au/2011/03/07/greg-murphy-hands-over-his-51-plate/)

People were quite disappointed and upset, so we applied to Paul Morris to see if we could lease it for GMR.

[shazbot]

If, as was suggested above Williams has hit rock bottom then the only way is up. I guarantee this season will be better, particularly towards the end of season. As far as Frank just wanting to be in F1 - you dont know how wrong you are.

[TheFamousEccles]

Sutil may well be going to jail, and even if he isn't its hardly good publicity. Rubens definately is not getting any quicker, he might say his motivation is still there, but I think he's given all he can give and in his time there so far hasn't moved the team forward.

Senna may not be the second coming, but his name means exposure, he does come with some money and he is a decent driver with a real chance of improving when given a proper pre season, testing and a safe seat. In the position they were in, I think only Sutil would have been a better driver option, but all the crap he is bringing negates a lot of that. However, this is Senna's last and only chance to prove he belongs. He has a proper chance in a half decent car for a whole season. I will judge him based on that, rather than the aborted previous seasons in a dog of a car and a part season in a rapidally declining car.


Yes, what he said. Some sense in a world of chatter. :)

[Koz]

If, as was suggested above Williams has hit rock bottom then the only way is up. I guarantee this season will be better, particularly towards the end of season. As far as Frank just wanting to be in F1 - you dont know how wrong you are.

Oh, come on, that is just wishful thinking.

Williams are doing everything to can to use spare change from Cosworth... All their drivers, save Rosberg and Rubens, paying for their drives since 2007...
Now hiring Spygate...

Williams is desperate, the lion senses the end is near.

[shazbot]

Oh, come on, that is just wishful thinking.

Williams are doing everything to can to use spare change from Cosworth... All their drivers, save Rosberg and Rubens, paying for their drives since 2007...
Now hiring Spygate...

Williams is desperate, the lion senses the end is near.

Yes you're right. What could I possibly know? Thanks for correcting me. Can you edit your second sentance - doesn't really make sense.

[zako85]

I agree with Robinho. It's not a bad decision considering Williams's other options. They are giving a young pilot a chance while still keeping the Brazilian sponsors interested. It's a good tradeoff. I would disagree about Williams only wanting to have drivers with good sponsors. It seems like they were interested in hiring Kimi Raikkonen. I am sure they would have considered someone like Webber or Massa, if only those or similar drivers were interested in moving to a team two tiers below their current team.

Williams's biggest downfall comes from the fact that they decided not to be a factory team. Every team that was doing well in the last 10 years, except for Brawn in 2009 and McLaren after Mercedes Benz divestment, was a factory team or a global brand corporate team (e.g. RedBull). It's very tough and unpredictable sport for the privateers.

[Koz]

Yes you're right. What could I possibly know? Thanks for correcting me. Can you edit your second sentance - doesn't really make sense.

Why do you bother posting your opinion if you are going to react like that when someone posts theirs?
It makes no sense. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, I suggest you get off this forum, the internet, and society in general and yourself find a nice cave to hide in.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. :)

[Koz]

I agree with Robinho. It's not a bad decision considering Williams's other options. They are giving a young pilot a chance while still keeping the Brazilian sponsors interested. It's a good tradeoff. I would disagree about Williams only wanting to have drivers with good sponsors. It seems like they were interested in hiring Kimi Raikkonen. I am sure they would have considered someone like Webber or Massa, if only those or similar drivers were interested in moving to a team two tiers below their current team.
I have to disagree... The only reason they wanted Kimi was because, I assume, the Qatar National Bank wanted a "top" driver...


Williams's biggest downfall comes from the fact that they decided not to be a factory team. Every team that was doing well in the last 10 years, except for Brawn in 2009 and McLaren after Mercedes Benz divestment, was a factory team or a global brand corporate team (e.g. RedBull). It's very tough and unpredictable sport for the privateers.

But look at other factory teams, Honda/Brawn nearly died, BMW/Sauber nearly didn't make it. Toyota is dead. Super Aguri...

[ArrowsFA1]

All, it seems, Sir Frank cares about is being in F1 - even if it is financed by pay driver and at the back of the grid.
I think it is safe to say that is very wide of the mark.

Senna is a good choice IMHO. He performed well in GP2, particularly given his relative lack of experience, and has done a good job in difficult & limited circumstances at HRT and Renault.

[Roamy]

Williams has officially hit rock bottom

When they are so broke they can't sign an immensely more qualified driver in Sutil
or retain an adequate Rubens, who at his advanced racing age is still much better than either pastor or Senna, then you know the end is near for this historic team

oh, and yes senna, they did sign you because of the money

As to sutil, this might be a blessing in disguise
Mercedes, Ferrari, and Renault might have openings next year.

rumors are the Sutil is a fudge packer - So sponsorship may be a problem trying to move in to a major team.

[The Black Knight]

I think it is safe to say that is very wide of the mark.

Senna is a good choice IMHO. He performed well in GP2, particularly given his relative lack of experience, and has done a good job in difficult & limited circumstances at HRT and Renault.

I agree that, given the circumstances in which Williams finds itself, Senna was the best option of all the pay drivers. The whole team stands a forelone figure to the team that dominated so many championships. I will be surprised if William's isn't amongst the bottom 4 teams again this year with a measley 5 points to their name. There is the possibility that the changes they have implemented throughout the last year may prove fruitful and they will climb the pecking order again, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Koz]

I think it is safe to say that is very wide of the mark.

Senna is a good choice IMHO. He performed well in GP2, particularly given his relative lack of experience, and has done a good job in difficult & limited circumstances at HRT and Renault.

I agree. I think Senna deserves a proper drive in F1. But I don't think him being in a Williams has anything to do with his ability or lack thereof.
There are many decent and experienced drivers who don't have a seat - Petrov and Sutil are about the same age - Sutil is vastly more experienced. (I do believe both have financial backing, but not as much compared to Senna).
Both outgoing SRT drivers are much younger and more experienced.

There is no logical reason to pick Senna above these drivers other than the 14 million Euro he is brining in, which I might add is more than Maldonado is paying for his seat.

If my father had 30 million Euro change in his pocket, I'm sure I'd be driving for Williams next season. :p

[ArrowsFA1]

I agree that, given the circumstances in which Williams finds itself, Senna was the best option of all the pay drivers.
This concept of pay drivers is amusing. Alonso brings Santander to the party at Ferrari and no-one bats an eyelid. Senna brings Embratel to Williams and it's desperation on the part of the team to take a pay driver.

Ok, so Senna as a driver is not in the same bracket as Alonso but the fact remains that all teams need sponsorship. Some of it they generate themselves, some of it comes linked to a driver. Williams are no different to Ferrari in that respect.

[ArrowsFA1]

There are many decent and experienced drivers who don't have a seat - Petrov and Sutil are about the same age - Sutil is vastly more experienced. (I do believe both have financial backing, but not as much compared to Senna).
Both outgoing SRT drivers are much younger and more experienced.
Sutil's current legal situation is a barrier to anyone signing him, and is Petrov really a better option given his comparative performance alongside Senna? As for the former STR drivers, given that the Red Bull programme machine had assessed them for many years and rejected them what does that say to anyone looking to employ them?

[SGWilko]

rumors are the Sutil is a fudge packer

Really - I thought he was an F1 driver.

[Mark]

If we have to have 2 threads on this, here is my original post:




The preferred method is if there is a thread "Is something about to happen?", if it does happen to start a new thread "Something has happened" and close the speculation thread. Mostly because someone reading the thread titles on the forum won't see there's been a new development otherwise.

[CNR]

rumors are the Sutil is a fudge packer - So sponsorship may be a problem trying to move in to a major team.
i would not be surprised to find out that that's what the fight was about
do not forget the blackmail a few years ago
the picture of him and the other f1 driver hand in hand

rumors ?

[Robinho]

rumors are the Sutil is a fudge packer - So sponsorship may be a problem trying to move in to a major team.

going on from your post in the Islam thread - could you provide a list of all the men you've been in, so we can judge the validity of your opinion regarding homosexuality? ;)

[Dave B]

The preferred method is if there is a thread "Is something about to happen?", if it does happen to start a new thread "Something has happened" and close the speculation thread. Mostly because someone reading the thread titles on the forum won't see there's been a new development otherwise.

You missed out somebody posting a duplicate thread which they were writing at the same time, and then somebody else posting another duplicate thread a few hours or days later because they didn't bother scrolling down a few lines :p

[CNR]

I'm not sure which picture that is concerning but I remember a pic that did the rounds of him and Lewis that at first glance looks like they are hand in hand, but when you consider Lewis is slightly behind him, its obvious its a trick of the angle. All a bit of fun. This is the one:

Photo: Lewis Hamilton in Love (http://www.formulaf1.com/2007/06/27/photo-lewis-hamilton-in-love/)

this image may be a fake
http://i40.tinypic.com/k50l8l.jpg

[shazbot]

Why do you bother posting your opinion if you are going to react like that when someone posts theirs?
It makes no sense. If you can't handle someone disagreeing with you, I suggest you get off this forum, the internet, and society in general and yourself find a nice cave to hide in.

Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. :)

Oh I've tried reasoned debate and it never works on this particular forum for some reason. Sometimes it's fun to join in the nonsensical rubbish that goes on here (see above posts for an utterly crass example) Some of it truely priceless, especially to those of us who have worked for many years in F1, Indycar, BTCC, and factory Le Mans efforts. Carry on.

[Dave B]

This concept of pay drivers is amusing. Alonso brings Santander to the party at Ferrari and no-one bats an eyelid. Senna brings Embratel to Williams and it's desperation on the part of the team to take a pay driver.

Ok, so Senna as a driver is not in the same bracket as Alonso but the fact remains that all teams need sponsorship. Some of it they generate themselves, some of it comes linked to a driver. Williams are no different to Ferrari in that respect.

:up: Even Michael Schumacher brought funding to his first Jordan outing. It's the way of motorsport. As for Sir Frank only being there to make up the numbers, well, that's certainly the impression you'd get if you never looked beyond the results, but I doubt for one moment that his passion is any less that it was when he had the likes of Jones, Prost, or Mansell on his books.

He surely does recognise, however, that his team needs to be first and foremost a viable business. As far as I know Williams have always made an operating profit, which over the decades is a remarkable achievment. There's no point paying millions to employees if it drives your team into bankrupcy. It's true that as their on-track performance dipped they were deserted by sponsors, which drives a vicious circle with less money to spend on performance. They'll need to up their game on track - 2011 was an unmitigated disaster for them - or a stroke of luck with some rich sponsors investing in the outfit, which is where their drivers' backers come in. Invest that money wisely and hopefully the results will follow, and the vicious circle starts rotating in the opposite direction.

[wedge]

Alonso brings Santander to the party at Ferrari and no-one bats an eyelid.

Santandar isn't a personal sponsor of Alonso's.

Santander clearly want to associate with Alonso as they began sponsoring McLaren. Does that make him a pay driver?

[ArrowsFA1]

Santandar isn't a personal sponsor of Alonso's.

Santander clearly want to associate with Alonso as they began sponsoring McLaren. Does that make him a pay driver?
Would they be at Ferrari if he were not? He has not directly brought the money to the team himself, but the money is with the team because he's racing for them.

Does that make him a pay driver? It's a fine definition to make because either way a sponsor is paying Ferrari and Williams money in return for having a certain driver in place.

[Koz]

Oh I've tried reasoned debate and it never works on this particular forum for some reason. Sometimes it's fun to join in the nonsensical rubbish that goes on here (see above posts for an utterly crass example) Some of it truely priceless, especially to those of us who have worked for many years in F1, Indycar, BTCC, and factory Le Mans efforts. Carry on.

Where exactly is your reasoned debate?
You posted something, I responded to it in a civilised manner. You didn't like it and resorted to sarcasm.

Now, you decided to tell me that you are some guy who has worked in motorsport "for many years" and we must bow down to your eternal wisdom because you say so?
Let me guess, asking you for proof will lead nowhere, am I right?

[Koz]

Sutil's current legal situation is a barrier to anyone signing him, and is Petrov really a better option given his comparative performance alongside Senna? As for the former STR drivers, given that the Red Bull programme machine had assessed them for many years and rejected them what does that say to anyone looking to employ them?

Yes, you are right about Sutil, there is very little time left take a risk.
But on the other cases, I would think the most important thing for Williams would be experience.
Wouldn't it be better to have drivers who have done a few seasons compared to someone who has not yet done one full season? (The GP2 experience of HRT does not count)
Especially when their other driver has also done only one season.

[ArrowsFA1]

Wouldn't it be better to have drivers who have done a few seasons compared to someone who has not yet done one full season? (The GP2 experience of HRT does not count)
Especially when their other driver has also done only one season.
Mmmmmmm...Well as someone who values experienced drivers (as opposed to teams rushing to sign the 'next young hotshot') you may think I'd support Barrichello's claim to the seat but he's been with the team for 2 years now and has made no noticeable impact in terms of moving them forward, nor has his experience been seen to be invaluable.

Maybe with the Renault engine and a new design team Rubens might have made his experience pay at Williams but he was never going to be in the seat long term. Bruno has experience with the Renault engine and has worked with a number of F1 teams (don't forget he was considered by Honda before they pulled out) so after his bumpy F1 apprenticeship he's ready for this kind of opportunity. If he takes it, and Williams produce a better car than they have in recent years, Senna could be at an improving Williams for some time to come.

[wedge]

Would they be at Ferrari if he were not? He has not directly brought the money to the team himself, but the money is with the team because he's racing for them.

Does that make him a pay driver? It's a fine definition to make because either way a sponsor is paying Ferrari and Williams money in return for having a certain driver in place.

The Santander deal was official before Alonso's - read into that what you will.

ING suddenly left Renualt 2009, Santander could have sponsored Alonso for the remainder of that season but didn't.

Pay driver is a tricky concept if you think hard enough, more than just F1 rejects. Marlboro had a say in McLaren's driver line up; Senna took Honda to McLaren and with allegations of deference to Senna it ensured McLaren had a future.

[ArrowsFA1]

So it might be argued that Senna, Schumacher and Alonso are among 'pay drivers' :p

(Incidentally did Alonso bring money to Minardi or was he bankrolled by Briatore?)

[shazbot]

Where exactly is your reasoned debate?
You posted something, I responded to it in a civilised manner. You didn't like it and resorted to sarcasm.

Now, you decided to tell me that you are some guy who has worked in motorsport "for many years" and we must bow down to your eternal wisdom because you say so?
Let me guess, asking you for proof will lead nowhere, am I right?

What proof would you like exactly?

[pino]

What proof would you like exactly?

Never mind...let's move on thank you !

[Koz]

What proof would you like exactly?

Whatever proof you are willing to provide.

[jens]

It seems like they were interested in hiring Kimi Raikkonen. I am sure they would have considered someone like Webber or Massa, if only those or similar drivers were interested in moving to a team two tiers below their current team.


They were interested in Räikkönen only if they could lure Qatari sponsorship with it. I don't think they would have hired Webber or Massa without sponsorship support. I mean Barrichello is basically a driver in the same caliber as them, he even allegedly found 5M $, but it wasn't enough. As sad/tough as it is, but Williams needs any additional cash they can get right now.

I have to agree that the solution of Maldonado-Senna isn't that bad considering the circumstances and the "need" for money. But it also signals that there is not much reason to believe in brighter future if the team is in such desperate shape that they need to count every penny. Design team has of course changed, but there is no guarantee the new team is better and Coughlan has been out of F1 for 4 years already.

[Koz]

Never mind...let's move on thank you !

Pino has spoken :)

[ArrowsFA1]

I have to agree that the solution of Maldonado-Senna isn't that bad considering the circumstances and the "need" for money. But it also signals that there is not much reason to believe in brighter future if the team is in such desperate shape that they need to count every penny.
As Dave pointed out earlier Williams have always made an operating profit. WGPE were formed in 1977 and you only need to look at the number of teams that have failed in that time, and those who have survived, to realise what an achievement that is, never mind the success they've had.

Still, that success was some time ago but it's not Ferrari drought proportions!! That lasted 21yrs (between WDCs) so 2018 will be a key year for Williams ;)

[Nem14]

If Rubens was a mountaineer, he would be just coming into his prime at 39 years old.

But, Rubens is a racing driver and race driving is a young mans sport.

[Koz]

As Dave pointed out earlier Williams have always made an operating profit. WGPE were formed in 1977 and you only need to look at the number of teams that have failed in that time, and those who have survived, to realise what an achievement that is, never mind the success they've had.

Still, that success was some time ago but it's not Ferrari drought proportions!! That lasted 21yrs (between WDCs) so 2018 will be a key year for Williams ;)

You're right, but we aren't just talking about any minnows team ,are we?

Ferrari still had relative success during these years. They were winning, and finishing on the podium throughout these years.

WIlliams on the other hand has not had a podium in 3 years nor a win in 7.
Their decline has been steady since BMW pulled out.

A more appropriate analogy would be Team Lotus' decline and demise.

[ArrowsFA1]

You're right, but we aren't just talking about any minnows team ,are we?
No, that's true. Still I for one am not writing Williams off :s mokin:

[DexDexter]

Santandar isn't a personal sponsor of Alonso's.

Santander clearly want to associate with Alonso as they began sponsoring McLaren. Does that make him a pay driver?

You can't be much more personal than Santander is to Alonso. I mean they paid over 20 million euros just to get their man the seat and kick Kimi out. That's a fact.

To me Williams should have signed Sutil but compared to the rest, Senna is a decent choice who did very well in Gp2 and has shown flashes of brilliance, for example Spa last year.

[truefan72]

If, as was suggested above Williams has hit rock bottom then the only way is up. I guarantee this season will be better, particularly towards the end of season. As far as Frank just wanting to be in F1 - you dont know how wrong you are.

I believe that this season will be far worse and the team might be sold or in real jeopardy by the end of the year

[djparky]

You're right, but we aren't just talking about any minnows team ,are we?

Ferrari still had relative success during these years. They were winning, and finishing on the podium throughout these years.

WIlliams on the other hand has not had a podium in 3 years nor a win in 7.
Their decline has been steady since BMW pulled out.

A more appropriate analogy would be Team Lotus' decline and demise.

also reminds me of the last days of the Tyrrell team- the ocasional glimmer of hope but then nothing happens with it. There have been a few glimmers in recent years- a win for Rosberg in Singapore was possible until he blew the pit exit.

The 2012 line up doesn't excite me at all- not a fan of either particularly. It's sad to see them doing this badly- hopefully Sky will show footage from years gone by and I can at least remind myself of the days when Williams used to win races- since there's bugger all chance of it happening again

As a Williams supporter since Alan Jones days I'd love to see them at the front again

[shazbot]

I believe that this season will be far worse and the team might be sold or in real jeopardy by the end of the year

I bet you one whole dollar that you are wrong. The $ amount is insignifacant before anyone picks up on that as a measure of my belief in the team. Just making a point!