M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

[AnttiL]

Very interesting if they can adapt the car totally to Tanak's driving preferences

Can they use jokers as a team on the Puma?

You mean they could take the Puma and develop it into their own direction with their own jokers? For sure no. Conversely, when M-Sport would issue a new homologation joker, they would have to buy those parts from M-Sport.

[DrLill]

The budget for that kind of a project isn't just "one million for buying a Puma, x million for Tänak's salary". The car has to be run and someone has to pay for it. And most importantly the testing and development. RedGrey isn't a factory team, it doesn't fund itself, it is just an operator that needs support from a paying customer. I can see the benefit from Tänak putting in money in this project to employ his own team and get some of the money "back" that way, but still that money has to come from somewhere.

Usually when drivers pay to be an M-Sport driver it's investing for a future career, to be later a factory driver with salary to get return for that investment. But in Tänak's case there's no need for that.

But what is a solid budget for a Rally1 team nowadays (including PET etc?)? Perhaps it is a small sum for Monster for supporting Red Gray at its fullest?

[Rallyest]

The budget for that kind of a project isn't just "one million for buying a Puma, x million for Tänak's salary". The car has to be run and someone has to pay for it. And most importantly the testing and development. RedGrey isn't a factory team, it doesn't fund itself, it is just an operator that needs support from a paying customer. I can see the benefit from Tänak putting in money in this project to employ his own team and get some of the money "back" that way, but still that money has to come from somewhere.

Usually when drivers pay to be an M-Sport driver it's investing for a future career, to be later a factory driver with salary to get return for that investment. But in Tänak's case there's no need for that.

But in the Tänak's Case he doesnt need to invest in his career anymore, what he needs and wants before ending his career is another world title. So maybe just maybe he is willing to invest some of his own money into this project, M-sport Probably cant pay for him. And also maybe because of Red-Bull they cant Have 2 cars with Huge Monster logos driving in a factory Puma, and maybe that is the reason.
Think of the promonitonal side to Monster to have a world champion driving with huge Monster logos. Also this will bring focus from all media if a team like this comes to play. Also it will be promotional for the whole series, maybe someone we dont know about is willing to also throw some money into a project like this

[AndersX]

Imho youre not wrong

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk
Maybe you know more, but from outside it looks exactly like so - either some rallies or no rallies att all in 2023.

[EstWRC]

based on the rumour i heard during weekend, i would say no rallies at all in 2023 and maybe even never.

but i really hope this rumour is very wrong this time, i really really do

[cali]

Maybe you know more, but from outside it looks exactly like so - either some rallies or no rallies att all in 2023.I was wrong once but I tend to believe so now. Nothing specific but the situation at home may not be as good as we think or expect.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[Sulland]

Very interesting if they can adapt the car totally to Tanak's driving preferences

Can they use jokers as a team on the Puma?

What are Tanaks driving preferences?
Are they very different from Solbergs?

[pettersolberg29]

What are Tanaks driving preferences?
Are they very different from Solbergs?

Similar philosophy between them. They often agreed on car direction at Hyundai, but unfortunately they weren't listened to very often...

[WRCStan]

I love how serious this Monster Team chat is getting, costing it out and looking up the sport's commercial agreements. This is why I come here, keep it up. We're only really here from a tweet from Solberg in which he drums up hype about a new line of merch and another from Ben Const on line-ups which was proven inaccurate by Toyota and Hyundai 24 hours later.

[pettersolberg29]

I love how serious this Monster Team chat is getting, costing it out and looking up the sport's commercial agreements. This is why I come here, keep it up. We're only really here from a tweet from Solberg in which he drums up hype about a new line of merch and another from Ben Const on line-ups which was proven inaccurate by Toyota and Hyundai 24 hours later.

There is literally a photo of Solberg in the studio recording a podcast with the post where he says "exciting things coming", and yet somehow it's been twisted into this gigantic story! It's just a podcast guys, let's not get carried away.

[Eli]

based on the rumour i heard during weekend, i would say no rallies at all in 2023 and maybe even never.

but i really hope this rumour is very wrong this time, i really really do

Really really hope it’s wrong, would be a huge loss for the championship, besides being one of the few who’s able to beat Kalle toe to toe, he’s one of the more interesting characters we have in this championship.

[Sulland]

The cool thing is how good Team Solberg is to make show, and get things to happen.

From Petters psyops games stressing the other drivers and using the press to his advantage.
Next generation has grown up with sosial media, and uses it well. Oliver during Covid made cups in eSport that got big.
Petter got the uppercut from Subaru, started his own team in short time, amd drove well in his Citroens.
Jumped to RX, and became world champ in that, amd ran a very professional team, together with Pernilla.

My point is, if they have gotten yes from Malcolm to get car(s), they have more than enought time, and people on hand to form a team with his and Red/Grey tech people. If Monster is in as main sponsor, covering a lot of the budget, this could fly!

[Walach]

Gotta agree that this season was a hell of a show from Team Solberg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

based on the rumour i heard during weekend, i would say no rallies at all in 2023 and maybe even never.

but i really hope this rumour is very wrong this time, i really really do

If he was retiring then why keep saying he had 'no contract for 2023' and 'let's see' ?

And Millener said they were talking to many drivers, including Ott...

[manthey]

You mean they could take the Puma and develop it into their own direction with their own jokers? For sure no. Conversely, when M-Sport would issue a new homologation joker, they would have to buy those parts from M-Sport.

I mean to give a personal direction and assuming very good results they can “force” with their results m-sport to adapt the car (the improvement is a win-win situation)

[EstWRC]

If he was retiring then why keep saying he had 'no contract for 2023' and 'let's see' ?

And Millener said they were talking to many drivers, including Ott...

Funny how you are one of the oldest members here, yet so naive and always believing what they say to the press

And the news I heard are very fresh and like I said, they are rumors

[seb_sh]

I don't buy any of the Solberg/Monster/RedGrey team rumors, well in my opinion they are less rumors and more wishfully thinking at this point. To me it seems that MSport will go with Greensmith and Loubet full time. They both bring budget and Loubet has some potential, while Greensmith usually gets to the finish. I don't see any other drivers with budget and competence unless Solberg can get something together. Probably add to that 4 rallies for Loeb again. Now if things are not good in Tanak's family I would understand he does a few rounds or none, and if that's the case I wish them well that they can get through the issues. Hopefully he does do all or at least a few rallies but I think we need to wait almost until the Monte entry list deadline to find out and even then it might not be clear with MSport's third car.

[denkimi]

based on the rumour i heard during weekend, i would say no rallies at all in 2023 and maybe even never.

but i really hope this rumour is very wrong this time, i really really do
I have the same feeling, no full season for tanak. Best case is sharing a car with loeb, but i fear he might take the year off completely, perhaps multiple years.

But i do have the feeling we will see him again in the future.

[AnttiL]

I have the same feeling, no full season for tanak. Best case is sharing a car with loeb,

Once again: Current M-Sport doesn't have to "share" cars. Paying customers or guest drivers drive the events which they want. If two want the same rally, they just put more cars. It's not a case of paying someone to drive or fighting for the title, or having the need to have three drivers in every rally or special drivers in special rallies or thinking about start positions.

This year we saw them enter everything from two (Japan) to five cars (Spain)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Funny how you are one of the oldest members here, yet so naive and always believing what they say to the press

And the news I heard are very fresh and like I said, they are rumors

I'd rather be 'naive' and have some faith in people than be cynical about every single statement. That must be such a sad way to live.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Another statement not to trust for some...

M-Sport is also interested in securing the services of 2019 world champion Ott Tanak, following the Estonian’s decision to leave Hyundai.

“It is clear that Ott is an option with him having left Hyundai, but it is an option that is still very difficult for us financially,” Millener told Autosport.

“World champions come with price tags. We will do all we can to try and find a way to work with him but that is tricky.”

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-a-lot-has-to-fall-in-the-right-place-to-sign-loeb-for-wrc-2023/10403603/

[AnttiL]

The most interesting thing about that article is that not even Loeb's few drives seem secured for next year.

In addition to Fourmaux missing from these articles, Solberg's name is not brought up. Could it be that Solbergs are looking more at the rental Yaris?

[seb_sh]

Maybe Fourmaux made himself too expensive due to the crashes. Miller also mentioned the team effort, surely fixing and rebuilding all those cars for Breen and Fourmaux has not been great. Also looking at how many issues the Pumas driven by people that payed had, including power steering and fogging up then if you can afford it the Toyota would be first choice I think.

[rp]

FFSA has a lot of money, so both Loubet and Fourmaux might be there. It seems that Greensmith will be the leading driver at M-Sport. It´s so weird that Ford is always helping and developing the new rally cars for M-Sport, but their support will end, when needed some money to get a proper driver. No sense at all!

Solberg has Monster support and Petter might think that the best way to follow Kalle´s career is to get the same car for Oliver.

[TypeR]

If FB translated correctly then in Estonian big rally group someone wrote that Tanak was seen at Tallin airport and flying to Frankfurd with helmet bag.

[ouvreur]

If FB translated correctly then in Estonian big rally group someone wrote that Tanak was seen at Tallin airport and flying to Frankfurd with helmet bag.

Frankfurt and Copenhagen are the most efficient airports to fly via, from Tallinn to Manchester...

[Rallyest]

If FB translated correctly then in Estonian big rally group someone wrote that Tanak was seen at Tallin airport and flying to Frankfurd with helmet bag.

It did translate correctly, seems kinda bull tho, Why would Tänak fly alone to test and why would he fly with a bag that says " test 2022 "

[flat_right]

It did translate correctly, seems kinda bull tho, Why would Tänak fly alone to test and why would he fly with a bag that says " test 2022 "

I think testing is one of the only places where Tänak would fly alone, especially with a helmet bag. But that guy, who wrote it, should have taken some paparazzi pictures. As they say, pics or didn't happen.

[AnttiL]

It did translate correctly, seems kinda bull tho, Why would Tänak fly alone to test and why would he fly with a bag that says " test 2022 "

He has separate race and test helmets?

[Rallyest]

He has separate race and test helmets?

My point was that why would he carry and walk around with that helmet bag and not hide it? i mean every estonian eyes are on him, i doubt he is interested in any extra attention knowing what kind of person heis

[ouvreur]

It did translate correctly, seems kinda bull tho, Why would Tänak fly alone to test and why would he fly with a bag that says " test 2022 "

If he's just going to just try a car for the first time, he wouldn't necessarily need his co-driver with him, Martin might be busy or have some other plans anyway.

I would guess that would be his 2022 Hyundai testing helmet... so he's either flying to Frankfurt (nearest airport to Alzenau) to give the helmet back, or on to somewhere else for a go in a new car...

I don't see any merit in trying to find some conspiracy or hidden meaning here. A rally driver flying somewhere with a helmet bag is pretty normal... why would he bother to hide it? It's not like he's under contract somewhere and needs to keep a low profile. And he's one of Estonia's most famous sportspeople, so it's not like he'd just blend into the background and not be noticed at Tallinn airport...

[AnttiL]

If he's just going to just try a car for the first time, he wouldn't necessarily need his co-driver with him, Martin might be busy or have some other plans anyway.

I would guess that would be his 2022 Hyundai testing helmet... so he's either flying to Frankfurt (nearest airport to Alzenau) to give the helmet back, or on to somewhere else for a go in a new car...

I don't see any merit in trying to find some conspiracy or hidden meaning here. A rally driver flying somewhere with a helmet bag is pretty normal... why would he bother to hide it? It's not like he's under contract somewhere and needs to keep a low profile. And he's one of Estonia's most famous sportspeople, so it's not like he'd just blend into the background and not be noticed at Tallinn airport...

I agree with the rest of your post but the thought of Tänak flying personally to Alzenau only to return a helmet made me LOL at a public library :D

[ouvreur]

I agree with the rest of your post but the thought of Tänak flying personally to Alzenau only to return a helmet made me LOL at a public library :D

Can you imagine :rotflmao:

[ferrial]

Farewell party in Alzenau and a helmet as a thank you present to Hyundai?

[TypeR]

Sordo burnt down 1mil car(Tanak's ex) and now Tanak is returning 10k used helmet :D :D :D

[EstWRC]

No idea how trustworthy this account is. It Has registered lately but since we are already having this crazy rumor roll today here

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221122/afb06cdae997fd32e7107c60e0a0b3ff.jpg

https://twitter.com/rallyspynews/status/1595113049886978048?s=46&t=XqBR5HFgrvqmmTTtpkgu6Q

[seb_sh]

No idea how trustworthy this account is. It Has registered lately but since we are already having this crazy rumor roll today here

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221122/afb06cdae997fd32e7107c60e0a0b3ff.jpg

https://twitter.com/rallyspynews/status/1595113049886978048?s=46&t=XqBR5HFgrvqmmTTtpkgu6Q

Ok which one of you is this? :D

[flat_right]

Definitely some Estonian who saw that post about Tänak with a helmet in the airport ;)

[wyler]

someone that "heard it here first" :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This was that guys 'news' about Hyundai 2023...

Rally Specialist @rallyspynews
Nov 2
Hyundai - Neuville, Mikkelsen full season and Suninen, Sordo will share car.

[focus206]

This was that guys 'news' about Hyundai 2023...

Rally Specialist @rallyspynews
Nov 2
Hyundai - Neuville, Mikkelsen full season and Suninen, Sordo will share car.

Wuorela's Estonian cousin

[ouvreur]

Sordo burnt down 1mil car(Tanak's ex) and now Tanak is returning 10k used helmet :D :D :D

Desperate times call for desperate measures :laugh:

[M3 Jambo]

Would be surprised if Tanak hasn't driven the Puma, maybe even before he left Hyundai. Colin Mac tested an Escort in Scotland with MSport in secret while contracted to Subaru.

[Kenneth]

I don't say that it couldn't happen, but it was a bit easier to make secret test in 90s.

[the sniper]

I don't say that it couldn't happen, but it was a bit easier to make secret test in 90s.

It's a British speciality to hide even national rallies from anyone interested, I think they could manage a secret test here...

[AnttiL]

M-Sport has a private testing forest, so likely no videos will surface. It's a different thing in Finland when we have "every man's right" to walk in every forest even if it's closed for a rally test and always someone finds out when a test is arranged. Sometimes the marshalls can ask not to post pictures/videos from a test but it's more like youtubers want to be friends with the test organizers rather than become personae non grataes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

There's no reason to make it a big secret though as Tanak is a free agent.

Also Millener has said they have had discussions with Tanak and we would all expect him to have a test before signing anything.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Another article on Tanak...

"It depends on a lot of things ," resumes Tänak when asked if he wants to complete a full season next year.

"It depends on how I feel, and especially if I have the belief that I have a chance to fight for the championship, because it's something that I miss. If that's the case, then I will be."

https://fr.motorsport.com/wrc/news/tanak-stop-ou-encore-wrc-2023/10404459/

[AnttiL]

Another article on Tanak...

"It depends on a lot of things ," resumes Tänak when asked if he wants to complete a full season next year.

"It depends on how I feel, and especially if I have the belief that I have a chance to fight for the championship, because it's something that I miss. If that's the case, then I will be."

https://fr.motorsport.com/wrc/news/tanak-stop-ou-encore-wrc-2023/10404459/

Those comments are from Rally Japan pre event press conference

https://www.fia.com/news/wrc-forum8-rally-japan-pre-event-press-conference

[seb_sh]

Be prepared for at least another couple of weeks of reheating interview snippets as articles.

[Andre Oliveira]

Rumours about Ott testing the Puma today.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fourmaux:
On the way to the @TropheeAndros ! While waiting to tell you more about 2023, I will take part in the famous ice racing competition this winter. Team DRP's 500hp electric car, 4 directional wheels... Lots of fun !

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Muddy for the test at Greystoke today...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FicJ-jxWIAI0ZNH?format=jpg&name=medium

[lmmjvss]

Ah great. Now ford dont want hybrids and electrics in motorsport.
https://www.motorsport.com/general/news/fords-new-take-on-electric-motorsport/10371372/
(Sep-22)

[the sniper]

Ah great. Now ford dont want hybrids and electrics in motorsport.
https://www.motorsport.com/general/news/fords-new-take-on-electric-motorsport/10371372/
(Sep-22)


To be fair, this speaks positively of the Puma and really is probably more relevant to NASCAR and Aussie Supercars.

[TypeR]

Impressive silence :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A bit more from the Millener interview:

"Honestly, I don't know who we'll have [driving for us in 2023], but hopefully we can keep all of our current drivers and Ott, if that's possible. No one has signed anything yet."


"There is interest (in Tanak), of course, but the rumors on the internet are much stronger than the reality. It is now clear that he is a free agent and that Hyundai is no longer an option for him. It seems that Toyota has a lineup that they are happy with, but it could be that he takes some time off."

"Obviously we'll talk to him and see what's possible, but right now it's very hard to envision a way to do anything."

Asked if M-Sport would consider a partial campaign for Tanak , he added: "It could be a possibility, although there would have to be an investment from M-Sport which is not going to be small."

"We have limited the cars we bring to Japan for financial reasons, and keeping the business going is our priority. There are a lot of people working at this company, so you don't want to put that at risk."

[mknight]

A bit more from the Millener interview:

"Honestly, I don't know who we'll have [driving for us in 2023], but hopefully we can keep all of our current drivers and Ott, if that's possible. No one has signed anything yet."


"There is interest (in Tanak), of course, but the rumors on the internet are much stronger than the reality. It is now clear that he is a free agent and that Hyundai is no longer an option for him. It seems that Toyota has a lineup that they are happy with, but it could be that he takes some time off."

"Obviously we'll talk to him and see what's possible, but right now it's very hard to envision a way to do anything."

Asked if M-Sport would consider a partial campaign for Tanak , he added: "It could be a possibility, although there would have to be an investment from M-Sport which is not going to be small."

"We have limited the cars we bring to Japan for financial reasons, and keeping the business going is our priority. There are a lot of people working at this company, so you don't want to put that at risk."


Who is their "current drivers"? I kind of only see Greensmith.

Fourmaux seems to be kicked out of Rally1. Loubet is supposedly paying himself and RedBull is paying for Loeb.


With regards to "investement" vs "not risking jobs". Everyone understands that saving money on investment only works as a short term fix. Longer term without investment the company will go down for sure. 2020-2021 it totally looked like that.
Then they (and/or Ford) made investment in new Puma and one driver capable of podiums (Breen) and managed to get Loeb for a few starts. Looked great for a few rallies and convinced Loubet as well as Huttunen to use money at MSport. (People like Serendis and Bertelli would likely use money there anyway).

But lately it looks not as great again, investing in Breen ultimately failed and Huttunens example of using money only to have technical issues whole rally as well as the constant technical issues for others is bad for business. Potential clients such as Solberg might rather opt to go to WRC2 (seems to be the case for Solberg) or rent that 4th Toyota.

-------------------

With regards to Tanak I 100% expect him to test it. The only reason not to try would be if he was 100% sure that he doesn't want any rallies in 2023.

[becher]

Ah great. Now ford dont want hybrids and electrics in motorsport.
https://www.motorsport.com/general/news/fords-new-take-on-electric-motorsport/10371372/
(Sep-22)

Without a doubt the best part of the interview: "I know we have it with our Puma hybrid in [World Rally Championship] and it’s actually working quite well there and we have learnt a lot from that that we can transfer to our road cars..."

Learnt a lot from an independent engineering company using a spec component from a third party. haha

[Kenneth]

You can't learn by analyzing what someone else done? Also won't there be option to use own hybrid unit since 2025?

[lmmjvss]

Without a doubt the best part of the interview: "I know we have it with our Puma hybrid in [World Rally Championship] and it’s actually working quite well there and we have learnt a lot from that that we can transfer to our road cars..."

Learnt a lot from an independent engineering company using a spec component from a third party. haha

YES. Pure P.R. BS...
Tho I understand that "Ford Europe" could be pushing electric and hybrid because of the EU and street cars, but its interesting to see this shift about motorsport.... HOWEVER ford has been linked to F1 for 2026... So, I dont understand anything anymore haha

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ah great. Now ford dont want hybrids and electrics in motorsport.
https://www.motorsport.com/general/news/fords-new-take-on-electric-motorsport/10371372/
(Sep-22)

It's good that they say that the spectacle created by ICE, ie. the noise, is important to connecting to their customers ie. motorsport fans.

Toyota boss Toyoda and JM Latvala have also said about keeping ICE and changing the fuel to suit instead.

The idea of full-electric rally cars seems to have been consigned to the dustbin.

[becher]

You can't learn by analyzing what someone else done? Also won't there be option to use own hybrid unit since 2025?

Of course one can, but Ford not being all that involved in M-Sports day to day running and the fact that we are talking about a spec component which is in terms of packaging at least not really comparable to anything we see on the road, makes me think that there is very little to be learned by the Ford roadcar side.

[sinepikohv]

Ok which one of you is this? :D

Wasn't this the same account that tweeted that Martin Järveoja will co-drive for Gregor Jeets next season? I heard from multiple accounts that is indeed true, one of them being oh so specific about the details surrounding the matter.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Oliver Solberg: M-Sport Rally1 WRC deal still an option for 2023

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/solberg-m-sport-rally1-deal-still-an-option-for-2023/10407211/

[lmmjvss]

Loeb and Formaux racing Electric Rallycross On Ice - Trophee Andros
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Bs-0rqABo

[pantealex]

Loeb and Formaux racing Electric Rallycross On Ice - Trophee Andros
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5Bs-0rqABo

with M-Sport World Rally Team ?

[lmmjvss]

with M-Sport World Rally Team ?
No, but they are Msport drivers hehe

[EstWRC]

Video story of Ott joining https://youtu.be/kc2nHrhxkpg

[TypeR]

Tanak and Malcolm saved the WRC for 2023 season :D

[AndersX]

I agree, they saved the WRC 2023! I am happy for Malcolm, M-sport, Estonians and rally society - we all hoped for this! Good job, M-Sport!!!! (I just hope this is not happening on expense of salary cut of M-Sport employees... :) )

[spyros]

we all owe alot to Malcolm, he has done alot to rallying.

[seb_sh]

I just remembered after Loeb won Monte there was some picture or video of Ott going to congratulate Malcolm. Obviously didn't mean anything then but seems his heart was pulling to MSport :)

[TypeR]

https://www.upload.ee/image/14727228/IMG_20221207_161155.jpg

[bwallace]

not much to wait till the other guys will drive puma if they get loeb more than 4 round that would be fantastic

[fiscorpun]

3h later and DirtFish only posted FOUR articles on that. Lets see if they post six more before 24h

[seb_sh]

https://www.upload.ee/image/14727228/IMG_20221207_161155.jpg

thank you! I tried to find it but failed :)

[mknight]

Obviously this is the best news possible with regards to Tanak.

But this sentence made me laugh:

"Tänak told DirtFish: “I wanted to be in a place where I have the full focus on doing everything in the team’s power or in our power to be able to fight for the championship. And that was definitely one reason why I was considering moving to M-Sport – and my target is obviously the drivers’ championship."

This definitely doesn't sound like MSport last 4 years. But hopefully they will try now. (So no such things as dropping pre-event testing).

[flat_right]

The one that stood out for me was “And there is also Ford behind who is very interested to still prove that they are capable of doing well in rallying, so I would say together with Ford and M-Sport I see there is a chance to build something great again together.” Does this mean there is bigger support from Ford?

[Managarium]

when I saw ''Ott Tanak The Movie'', there was one scene where Malcolm and Rich told Ott that he is in wrong colors. He replied to them, that if he is ever going to trive fot them (M-Sport), that he (Ott) wants a privat jet to fly to rallyes, because Toyota has one for him.

So, does he get a jet or not? :beer:

[Danny0405]

Excellent news for the rally world ... even if I’m not sure it’s the best choice for Tanak himself. But well, on what he has shown last year and knowing Ogier succeeded in winning the title in 2018 in the second year of the regulation, it’s not an impossible dream.
And it gives some hype to the 2023 championship.

Losing Tanak would have reduced the possibilities and Clearly having a big fish in M-Sport team give a 3-way very interesting fight.
Let’s see now what M-Sport will have as line-up along him.

[AndersX]

Excellent news for the rally world ... even if I’m not sure it’s the best choice for Tanak himself. But well, on what he has shown last year and knowing Ogier succeeded in winning the title in 2018 in the second year of the regulation, it’s not an impossible dream.
And it gives some hype to the 2023 championship.

Losing Tanak would have reduced the possibilities and Clearly having a big fish in M-Sport team give a 3-way very interesting fight.
Let’s see now what M-Sport will have as line-up along him.

Lets just hope that M-Sport will figure out their reliability issues and wont skip PET due to the funding issues. Tanak wont tolerate it - PR success and opportunity might turn to disaster rather quickly if MSport would not hold their word of bargain.

But, one is sure - MS folks have had been in this situation before, with Ogier, they must know that they would need to rise their game.

[Rallyest]

Lets just hope that M-Sport will figure out their reliability issues and wont skip PET due to the funding issues. Tanak wont tolerate it - PR success and opportunity might turn to disaster rather quickly if MSport would not hold their word of bargain.

But, one is sure - MS folks have had been in this situation before, with Ogier, they must know that they would need to rise their game.

Main question mark and the thing that can ruin the season for Tänak in M-sport is reliability in my opinion also, but i hope that him joining brings the motivation and will to deal with theese little issues that hindered Fords all season.

About PET i dont really think it was as much about money as everyone thinks, i mean course money was involved, but if you think logically why would you need to spend money with some second tier drivers to who'm it does not matter if he has 50+km before rally or not. He still will be driving 5-6-7 times at best or end it in a ditch. Loeb got to test before every rally he entered, so i doubt Tänak will be without PET's.

Also i think now that Tänak joined the team as mentioned in the Dirtfish article and some other places also, Tänak coming to the team will open the wallet more from Ford to Wilson.

It has been mentioned that Ford has started already to fall behind from Hyundai and Toyota, but people are forgetting that Hyundai and Toyota applied the engine updates before Rally Estonia i think. Ford postphoned that because there were some question marks about the fuel used next season. https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-m-sport-is-holding-back-on-major-engine-upgrades/
That means in Monte probably or Sweden they will apply the new engine update. And also with Tänak knowledge i think the chassis and aero wont stay the same in terms of upgrades. Quote from dirtfish about Tänaks words
“And there is also Ford behind who is very interested to still prove that they are capable of doing well in rallying, so I would say together with Ford and M-Sport I see there is a chance to build something great again together.”

In my opinion that means when Tänak and Wilson say something needs to be upgraded on the car, then it probably will be done and wont stay behind budget wall.

[mknight]

About PET i dont really think it was as much about money as everyone thinks, i mean course money was involved, but if you think logically why would you need to spend money with some second tier drivers to who'm it does not matter if he has 50+km before rally or not. He still will be driving 5-6-7 times at best or end it in a ditch. Loeb got to test before every rally he entered, so i doubt Tänak will be without PET's.




Breen did not get to test before Finland, a rally he finished 3rd at the year before. I do not rate Breen particularly high, but cleary he was MSports best shot for that rally and should have had a chance of podium.

If that is not worth spending money, even after actually hiring the driver (and not just him paying) then you have to wonder what is.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

My phone died on Tuesday and I had to have it returned to factory settings. I didn't get it back till this morning.... and find I missed the big news !!

I dared to dream Tanak would come back but didn't really believe it. FANTASTIC !!

[ouvreur]

It's certainly good news that he will be back in 2023. Let's hope he'll have a better time of it than he did these last couple of years.

At the same time, let's be realistic about what we can expect. He's fast, sure. The car has shown flashes of pace. However, it looks fragile even in the hands of someone like Sebastien Loeb, who certainly seems to have a lighter touch than most.

The other manufacturers have clearly taken steps forward in terms of speed and reliability, while it's hard to say if the Puma is any better now than it was this time last year. Lessons will have been learned I'm sure, but still...

I don't want to get too carried away. I'm a fan of the driver and the team, and I'd be very happy to see both of them back on top, but I don't see it being easy for them. Ott is going to have to be patient, and M-Sport are going to have to start spending some serious money. Let's hope the cash they saved in 2022 will be used to good effect in 2023.

[doubled1978]

I don’t believe Tanak would have signed had he not been assured that the basics (PET, development budget, knowledge of the extent of Fords involvement etc) been assured. For sure he is not a guy to go there because he likes Malcolm Wilson, he is going there because they have assured him they have the funds and material to do a proper job.
It remains to be seen if it actually comes together, but this isn’t some old pals act.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's going to be fascinating whatever happens and is exactly what we fans and the WRC needed... a 3-way fight for the top guys in different cars.

I'm looking forward to hearing the full details of Tanak's deal and how it all came about and will be funded. It's clearly a big financial outlay and I really hope it pays off for whoever's laid out the salary.

[TypeR]

Could it be that Wilson managed to pull a deal with papa Greensmith?
As Tanak isn't RB guy, he can run with another livery(maybe same as Gus)?

Anyway Gus has a really good chance to benefit from Tanak being his teammate for full season(like Tanak and Evans gained experience from Ogier).

[AnttiL]

Anyway Gus has a really good chance to benefit from Tanak being his teammate for full season(like Tanak and Evans gained experience from Ogier).

To me it seems Gus knows how to be a professional rally driver, but he just lacks the talent of driving fast. Tänak's situation was the opposite, he had speed but had to learn important details of working and refining his driving style from Ogier.

Furthermore, Gus was in the team already in 2017 with Ogier, Tänak and Evans. If he needed those guys to "watch and learn", he could have already done it (also with Ogier 2018 and Evans 2018-2019)

[TypeR]

Well in 2017-2019 he drove R5(with only 3 wrc starts in 19')..

[denkimi]

good news for m-sport, but unless ford suddenly decides to put some real money behind the project, i fear it will go even worse than at hyundai. At toyota, he could have been a threat to rovanpera, but in a ford i doubt he will be even close to him.

[dimviii]

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
·
7 Dec
Tänak returns to M-Sport next year -
Positive news indeed for 2023 #WRC. A big thanks to #Ford for funding and their employees whose jobs have been or will be sacrificed to fund the multi-million $'s cost.

[seb_sh]

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
·
7 Dec
Tänak returns to M-Sport next year -
Positive news indeed for 2023 #WRC. A big thanks to #Ford for funding and their employees whose jobs have been or will be sacrificed to fund the multi-million $'s cost.

Seems like a bad take from someone who should know better.

[Sal yet again]

Gerard obviously has beef with Ford and I trust some of it will be justified however there eventually comes a time to walk away and think he may have reached that point..

[WRCStan]

Seems like a bad take from someone who should know better.

Never did know where the sarcasm was or who it was aimed at with Gerard.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
·
7 Dec
Tänak returns to M-Sport next year -
Positive news indeed for 2023 #WRC. A big thanks to #Ford for funding and their employees whose jobs have been or will be sacrificed to fund the multi-million $'s cost.

Wow this is a surprise as GQ has always actually praised Ford for the funding they do put in (for the car).

He seems to think that MW and driver sponsors should be responsible for paying any salarìes, not Ford even though they benefit from having a top driver.

A strange one.

[rallyfiend]

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
·
7 Dec
Tänak returns to M-Sport next year -
Positive news indeed for 2023 #WRC. A big thanks to #Ford for funding and their employees whose jobs have been or will be sacrificed to fund the multi-million $'s cost.

This guy doesn't seem bright enough to have a straight thought....

[HKSjbg]

https://youtu.be/K9rLqjzPhLY

Tänak testing at Greystoke and Dovenby. Look at the hilariously large silencer when testing at Dovenby! The place must be subject to some fairly strict noise regulations despite it being a private facility due to the local residents

[dimviii]

This guy doesn't seem bright enough to have a straight thought....

strange as he was, even lately, very positive about Ford.

[J4MIE]

https://youtu.be/K9rLqjzPhLY

Tänak testing at Greystoke and Dovenby. Look at the hilariously large silencer when testing at Dovenby! The place must be subject to some fairly strict noise regulations despite it being a private facility due to the local residents

Yes, it was needed to help get the planning permission through. I think you can look up the full details on Allerdale council planning site.

[J4MIE]

This guy doesn't seem bright enough to have a straight thought....

Well Ford have made thousands of redundancies recently to reduce costs. Do you not have any empathy with these people that could have lost everything, only to find out that Ford can now spunk (£20m?) for a rally driver.

[macebig]

Tanak isn't making anywhere close to £20m. Probably getting rid of Breen and Fourmaux 's repair bills (plus the former's contract) saved enough for M-Sport to line up a decent offer for Ott.

[drive]

good news for m-sport, but unless ford suddenly decides to put some real money behind the project, i fear it will go even worse than at hyundai. At toyota, he could have been a threat to rovanpera, but in a ford i doubt he will be even close to him.

ok, noone has seen bank statements of transfers between Ford-MSport... and what ford does in research like wind tunnels, suspension etc... just most fans thinks that MSport runs only on Mr Wilson business money only - but Ford involvement is much bigger then everyone thinks... and I hope MSport would get more wins in 2023 :)

[wyler]

Tanak isn't making anywhere close to £20m. Probably getting rid of Breen and Fourmaux 's repair bills (plus the former's contract) saved enough for M-Sport to line up a decent offer for Ott.

c'mon. u really think tanak drive for romance? it's clearly written ford is funding the wage.

[ouvreur]

As ever, it seems the truth is somewhere between the two extremes.

M-Sport must be getting some funding to support their 2023 driver wage bill. Something must have changed from this year, otherwise they'd have been doing it already.

And those slating this expenditure... what do they want M-Sport to do? Quit the WRC? Or have Ford pull out of motorsport completely? That will cost people their jobs too. I would have expected Mr Quinn to know better than to make comments like that.

The world is basically f*cked, so should we all just give up? No. We carry on, doing the best we can.

[seb_sh]

Well Ford have made thousands of redundancies recently to reduce costs. Do you not have any empathy with these people that could have lost everything, only to find out that Ford can now spunk (£20m?) for a rally driver.

That's not how corporate budgets work.

[wyler]

That's not how corporate budgets work.

but sadly is how reality works.

[seb_sh]

but sadly is how reality works.

If you prefer they could spend the money sponsoring a football team, in which case it's the wrong forum.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-im-like-malcolm-wilsons-stepson/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Tanak's clearly made some good money at Toyota and Hyundai over the years since he last drove for M-Sport. He has probably compromised a fair bit on his wages to allow a deal to be made. Plus there could be plenty of clauses in the contract on both his and the cars performance.

[EstWRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/tanak-im-like-malcolm-wilsons-stepson/

“They have been doing some clever things and, as I said, the pace is strong there. So for sure there are things we can improve and there are things we can have better and stronger so we will definitely work on it,” he said.

[Rallyest]

“They have been doing some clever things and, as I said, the pace is strong there. So for sure there are things we can improve and there are things we can have better and stronger so we will definitely work on it,” he said.

Dirtfish already starting to milk the probably 1 interview Tänak gave them, and splitting Tänaks words into tens of articles, in this article the point is basically the same as in the first article they released, just different wording and quote from Tänak

[tr4m]

Dirtfish already starting to milk the probably 1 interview Tänak gave them, and splitting Tänaks words into tens of articles, in this article the point is basically the same as in the first article they released, just different wording and quote from Tänak

And then Estonian media will milk their articles, doubling them. Like after initial announcement, where Dirtfish managed to crank up 3 articles and Postimees generated 6 out of them. That's peak journalism.

[wyler]

If you prefer they could spend the money sponsoring a football team, in which case it's the wrong forum.

totally indifferent. same reality.
just, let's not be so naive to pretend that our loved sport is a better reason to "corporate budget logic" than any other. it's the same.

[WRCStan]

Well Ford have made thousands of redundancies recently to reduce costs. Do you not have any empathy with these people that could have lost everything, only to find out that Ford can now spunk (£20m?) for a rally driver.

But does he even mean Ford or the Promoter, sorry, Red Bull?

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
Dec 8
Replying to @FakeHinkelstein @NumbErer90
You are talking about an energy drink partner here, right? 😂
You know that friend who disappears from the bar when it's their round having already stuffed themselves at the buffet.......

https://nitter.net/WRCgerardquinn/status/1600784071592116225

[ouvreur]

totally indifferent. same reality.
just, let's not be so naive to pretend that our loved sport is a better reason to "corporate budget logic" than any other. it's the same.

It's all a big tax write-off. The money the manufacturers use to fund their rally teams comes from their PR/marketing/advertising/R&D budgets. If they didn't spend it in the WRC, they'd do so elsewhere.

That's what makes VW's withdrawal in 2016 hard to take - every cent they would have used in the WRC in 2017 and beyond will still have been spent on other marketing activities, they just couldn't be seen to be playing with IC-engined rally cars.

[dimviii]

But does he even mean Ford or the Promoter, sorry, Red Bull?

Gerard Quinn
@WRCgerardquinn
Dec 8
Replying to @FakeHinkelstein @NumbErer90
You are talking about an energy drink partner here, right? ��
You know that friend who disappears from the bar when it's their round having already stuffed themselves at the buffet.......

https://nitter.net/WRCgerardquinn/status/1600784071592116225

didnt undertand guys.Cansomebody clarify?

[wyler]

It's all a big tax write-off. The money the manufacturers use to fund their rally teams comes from their PR/marketing/advertising/R&D budgets. If they didn't spend it in the WRC, they'd do so elsewhere.

That's what makes VW's withdrawal in 2016 hard to take - every cent they would have used in the WRC in 2017 and beyond will still have been spent on other marketing activities, they just couldn't be seen to be playing with IC-engined rally cars.

yeah. but the meaning is the same. if they cut employees for marketing, it sucks, even if "the marketing" is rally racing. i'm just saying to be aware of it, and not pretend rallying to be a purely romantic sport.
anyway, we can do nothing about it, so at least, we enjoy the race.

[wyler]

didnt undertand guys.Cansomebody clarify?

my guess is:
ford in for tanak wage (at least partly)
red bull out

e: let's hope not, that would mean no loeb & no fourmeaux either.

[ouvreur]

yeah. but the meaning is the same. if they cut employees for marketing, it sucks, even if "the marketing" is rally racing. i'm just saying to be aware of it, and not pretend rallying to be a purely romantic sport.
anyway, we can do nothing about it, so at least, we enjoy the race.

Ah, but my point was the opposite. They aren't cutting staff numbers to raise money for marketing. There isn't really any correlation at all, at least not financially. Maybe morally.

Like VW in 2016, as they were laying staff off in the wake of the emissions cheating scandal (more than 20,000 if I remember right), they were still spending money on marketing - probably more than ever as they tried to repair their image. They just couldn't be seen to be having fun using fossil fuel-consuming cars 'rallying the world' with that money.

[wyler]

Ah, but my point was the opposite. They aren't cutting staff numbers to raise money for marketing. There isn't really any correlation at all, at least not financially. Maybe morally.

Like VW in 2016, as they were laying staff off in the wake of the emissions cheating scandal (more than 20,000 if I remember right), they were still spending money on marketing - probably more than ever as they tried to repair their image. They just couldn't be seen to be having fun using fossil fuel-consuming cars 'rallying the world' with that money.

here's exactly where is naive.
in a business company, everything is correlated. They just sit in a board and decide if investing in marketing is worth or not for the business even at the cost of losing some employees.
vw did just as well, they lose lots of money after the scandal, but for them pr to clean up was definitely valuable, so they kept pr and cut workers to counter the loss.
btw: we started this thread on a tweet stating just this: more ford investment in rally is coming at the cost of some cut in other areas. (although not proved).

[EstWRC]

I don’t really understand this guy anymore.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/864e62d745b4cde55fea7a33084ade08.jpg

[wyler]

I don’t really understand this guy anymore.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/864e62d745b4cde55fea7a33084ade08.jpg

at least now is very clear what was the past role of ford in m-sport, and what is now.

[cali]

He's having a problem with Tänak's salary. Understood, but until someone is willing to pay then it's game on.

Seems like Tänak/Märtin is a hard combination to bargain with.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[the sniper]

didnt undertand guys.Cansomebody clarify?

I imagine he's confirming that Red Bull really weren't putting in much money to the team.


Regarding the morality of the Ford funding increase. As I think I've said before, without the likes of a Tanak, much of the money Ford were giving M-Sport (we've lately been led to believe even prior to this it wasn't as small an amount as we imagined or was previously the case) was essentially being wasted if they weren't going to invest in the most important part of the package, having a Driver who can actually win. I don't think Tanak is getting anywhere near £20m, but it'd be interesting to know what ratio of the Ford to M-Sport budget he is getting personally. It seems that Ford woke up to the idea that they either had to pay for a Tanak or largely forget/cut the WRC program budget. Thankfully for us and the WRC, they chose the former option.

I highly doubt it'll make any difference whatsoever to the scope of restructuring/redundancies being carried out more widely across Ford, it's a drop in the ocean by comparison. A few less Ford adverts shown during NFL games a season on US TV or a small redistribution of funds from the NASCAR program would probably pay for it.

Hopefully it works out better and lasts longer than the 2019 Citroën throw of the dice with Ogier...

[AndyRAC]

I imagine he's confirming that Red Bull really weren't putting in much money to the team.


Yes; I think it was more a case of Red Bull athletes driving the M-Sport cars, with minimal funding. I suspect it covered the Breen car, as he isn't part of RB; Loeb, Fourmaux are both RB athletes; I'd love to know what Fourmaux did to get RB backing - he's got to be the most anonymous/ unsuccessful RB athlete out there....

I guess they still put more into Nascar and Aussie Supercars than WRC.

[Kenneth]

Speaking about Red Bull, Erik Cais became Red Bull athlete

[er88]

2-5m a year for Tanak is peanuts for Ford regardless of what job losses have occurred in other areas of their company. They invested more than Msport fans like to believe in this car, it was a fully fledged partnership. 5m a year is worth it for a driver who will win rallies and a possible championship. Last year was a disaster after Monte, where that rally generated unreal publicity for them.

Tanak would've stayed at home if the money wasn't right, on top of the commitment of future development. Many on here said last season, why have Ford poured money into the Puma only for Msport to act like a tinpot team with mostly pay drivers?! They needed a top tier driver, now they've put up the money to get one.

Motorsport is motorsport/marketing. Hyundai used to chuck 15m a year at Chelsea football club just to have a tiny miniscule logo on one of their shirts sleeves.

I feel sorry for anyone losing their jobs, including those at Ford. But the reality is companies restructure. And motorsport and marketing is treated as an entirely different entity anyway. Marketing might even ramp up when a company wants a much needed boost

[WRCStan]

here's exactly where is naive.
in a business company, everything is correlated. They just sit in a board and decide if investing in marketing is worth or not for the business even at the cost of losing some employees.
vw did just as well, they lose lots of money after the scandal, but for them pr to clean up was definitely valuable, so they kept pr and cut workers to counter the loss.
btw: we started this thread on a tweet stating just this: more ford investment in rally is coming at the cost of some cut in other areas. (although not proved).


Ah, but my point was the opposite. They aren't cutting staff numbers to raise money for marketing. There isn't really any correlation at all, at least not financially. Maybe morally.

Like VW in 2016, as they were laying staff off in the wake of the emissions cheating scandal (more than 20,000 if I remember right), they were still spending money on marketing - probably more than ever as they tried to repair their image. They just couldn't be seen to be having fun using fossil fuel-consuming cars 'rallying the world' with that money.

I think the entire VW scandal was more geopolitical than anything else. That fine didn't really exist and the idea that companies employ excess staff to be nice but can fire at any moment 'to pay for something else' is ridiculous. My belief is these staff weren't needed anymore and VW were done with WRC and the reasoning was whatever could be used at the time.

Back on topic, and I don't know Gerard closely enough to know his thesis, but seems he is at odds with the WRC having manufacturer benefactors and an energy drink benefitting. Agree, we often cover this here, but this is where we are.

[macebig]

Looks like Loeb is still very much on the cards for 2023.
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1601245718798561280?s=20&t=SnLB69dKIxJR1M5yMJr3-g

[wyler]

Looks like Loeb is still very much on the cards for 2023.
https://twitter.com/MSportLtd/status/1601245718798561280?s=20&t=SnLB69dKIxJR1M5yMJr3-g

well, it's just the redbull closing party for the '22 season in their garden... '23 is still to come, let's hope with no big change.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems to me that Tanak's sudden availability has been the catalyst to getting Ford to finally pay up for the top driver M-Sport needed. Plus his salary may also be lower than if they were poaching him from another team.

Missing out on him would've wasted the all the money they'd already paid out in making the Puma Rally1 Hybrid happen.

[Danny0405]

Looking at Solberg «*interview*» in Motorsport.com + Millener’s comments, I have the feeling it will be Loeb or Solberg in part-time 4th car (and maybe even a bit of 3rd if Loubet has not a full-time program).
Millener is wondering about sponsorship conflicts but does not discard it completly. I have the feeling they are pushing Red Bull for Loeb (and will not take Solberg in that case) but not sure Red Bull will invest again this season:
- 2022 results were bad
- Tanak’s deal is clearly not a Red Bull one, else communication would have been clear about that
- Loubet and Greensmith are not Red Bull drivers (no external sign of it) and I don’t think their results are enough to convince RB
- Very low probability that they help again Fourmaux (who misses out 3 of the 4 last rallies), and they began to help other youngsters such as Cais.
So is some drives with Loeb interesting enough for Red Bull to put some money for M-Sport? Not sure at all with a young Red Bull driver (Rovanpera) being the big fish.

And if Red Bull is not there, I would see M-Sport, Monster and Solberg finalizing for Solberg a deal equivalent to Loubet 2022 program (half-program).
Wouldn’t be surprised to see Solberg in his Polo in Sweden and then announcing a deal with M-Sport.

[Paul Hudson]

It might all have something to do with the Dakar project that M-Sport are working on with Ford, Some extra Finance to get some top drivers ready, Fourmaux has already been testing it, and Tanak no doubt will test at some point, then you throw Loeb into that mix !!.

[wyler]

Looking at Solberg «*interview*» in Motorsport.com + Millener’s comments, I have the feeling it will be Loeb or Solberg in part-time 4th car (and maybe even a bit of 3rd if Loubet has not a full-time program).
Millener is wondering about sponsorship conflicts but does not discard it completly. I have the feeling they are pushing Red Bull for Loeb (and will not take Solberg in that case) but not sure Red Bull will invest again this season:
- 2022 results were bad
- Tanak’s deal is clearly not a Red Bull one, else communication would have been clear about that
- Loubet and Greensmith are not Red Bull drivers (no external sign of it) and I don’t think their results are enough to convince RB
- Very low probability that they help again Fourmaux (who misses out 3 of the 4 last rallies), and they began to help other youngsters such as Cais.
So is some drives with Loeb interesting enough for Red Bull to put some money for M-Sport? Not sure at all with a young Red Bull driver (Rovanpera) being the big fish.

And if Red Bull is not there, I would see M-Sport, Monster and Solberg finalizing for Solberg a deal equivalent to Loubet 2022 program (half-program).
Wouldn’t be surprised to see Solberg in his Polo in Sweden and then announcing a deal with M-Sport.

some hints from news these days:
- fourmaux unofficially confirmed in wrc2 (but before tanak, might change, especially if redbull leaves)
- loubet racing in devouly with gilsoul in a fiesta rally2
- cais announced wrc2 + erc campain with skoda

[ictus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Woq8ltYUHbU a lot of M-Sporters in this video ;)

[Danny0405]

some hints from news these days:
- fourmaux unofficially confirmed in wrc2 (but before tanak, might change, especially if redbull leaves)
- loubet racing in devouly with gilsoul in a fiesta rally2
- cais announced wrc2 + erc campain with skoda

About Ford Rally2 program: they already have Virves (and we can think that with Tanak there, he will have more than the 4 prize drives) and the last news from Belgium are saying Serderidis has cut half of his next year program to fund Grégoire Munster in 2023; and Munster has 2 possibilities, either Hyundai (his father is a contender to take the program left by RedGrey) or Ford, with a decision to be taken soon as he wants to do the Monte Carlo.

So I wouldn’t be 100% sure about Fourmaux in Rally2. Let’s see, probably some news soon.

[Kenneth]

Is there possibility that we will see Munster in Serderidis' Puma for some tests or even one race?

[Brynmor Pierce]

It might all have something to do with the Dakar project that M-Sport are working on with Ford, Some extra Finance to get some top drivers ready, Fourmaux has already been testing it, and Tanak no doubt will test at some point, then you throw Loeb into that mix !!.

That was the theory I threw up a few weeks back Paul, I think you’re spot on. Dakar fits exactly with Tanak wanting a new challenge.

[Oliverk]

That was the theory I threw up a few weeks back Paul, I think you’re spot on. Dakar fits exactly with Tanak wanting a new challenge.

He prob has zero interests in DAKAR.

[Andre Oliveira]

Fourmaux will be in Janner Rallye with ZM Racing Team Ford Fiesta Rally2.

[seb_sh]

Sounds like all in for Tanak and the rest get whatever is left. https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/loeb-wrc-monte-carlo-deal-will-be-difficult-says-m-sport-team-boss/10410564/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Let's be honest, there's no way M-Sport can compete with the other two big teams for the manufacturers title.

Their other 2023 drivers will effectively only be there for their own benefit.

[Managarium]

Loubet - Gilsoul confirmed.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/gilsoul-to-partner-loubet-in-wrc-next-year/?fbclid=IwAR285Onac9td9Br96PHb6CVEPX6wZjstptXFNJdh eXajeWOHRubFaL7gAg0

[pantealex]

Loubet - Gilsoul confirmed.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/gilsoul-to-partner-loubet-in-wrc-next-year/?fbclid=IwAR285Onac9td9Br96PHb6CVEPX6wZjstptXFNJdh eXajeWOHRubFaL7gAg0

confirmed ?

by dirtfish!

could be true but dfish is far from official source.

[Kenneth]

What about read the article? There is like interview with Loubet where he is saying that he will start with Gilsoul next year, even it's not signed yet.

There will be 6 brands in WRC before people will learn how to work with media.

[seb_sh]

Let's be honest, there's no way M-Sport can compete with the other two big teams for the manufacturers title.

Their other 2023 drivers will effectively only be there for their own benefit.

Indeed, seems Loeb was payed last year to show the potential of the car, I guess it worked, now that they have Tanak they will focus all they have on him: "At the moment we have to put all our resources into Ott and that is where we have got to be realistic."
And about the others:
“It would be great to have Pierre-Louis back in the team. He is not stopping his rallying at the moment but there is no official news yet as to what programme he will have next year." - translation: He doesn't yet know how much money he gets to spend.
About Gus Greensmith they will discuss “to understand what we can do with him for the season” - refers to him exactly as someone refers to a client, if there was any gram of doubt left in anyone's mind about that relationship.
It seems Fourmaux gets the young Tanak/Evans treatment and gets demoted to WRC2, probably a good choice.

To summarise it's Tanak + whoever pays, even Loeb gets less importance because they have a fast lead driver. Remember they only need to enter 2 cars on each rally. Between Loubet, Greensmith, Serderidis and Bertelli i'm sure they can get enough people to pay for at least one car on each rally. For me the question of other drivers is less important and could also be dynamic as people find or lose budget as the year goes one. It's clear only one MSPort car really matters.


confirmed ?

by dirtfish!

could be true but dfish is far from official source.

True but they have been spot on so far this year.

[the sniper]

Their other 2023 drivers will effectively only be there for their own benefit.

Better that than arguably being the case for all their drivers for the last couple of years, other than Loeb, who was very much a part timer...

[macebig]

They have zero issue supporting 4 cars for Monte if needed. Only point is how many PETs they can split between Loeb and Tanak plus whatever share Greensmith and Loubet get.

[AndersX]

If you are a paydriver, to choose Montecarlo is very risky, because that rally is more like a lottery, than sport; you really need experience - misjudge 1 corner and all is f...d big time. Common sense says that we would see more pay-drivers in Rally1 cars from Swe onwards.

[WRC1]

If you are a paydriver, to choose Montecarlo is very risky, because that rally is more like a lottery, than sport; you really need experience - misjudge 1 corner and all is f...d big time. Common sense says that we would see more pay-drivers in Rally1 cars from Swe onwards.

but it could also end the other way round....you dont have to be the fastest driver out there, you simply have to go "proper" speed from start to finish, have a little bit luck with tire choice and you can end up very high up in the leaderboard!

[Kenneth]

I would say that pay drivers care more about fun than ending up in leaderboard. You know, 6th place won't make you famous.

Also still the risk is much higher.

[becher]

Well if they really only care about Tänak, they should still have one other car with a somewhat capable driver. Sending him for the championship alongside tourists is not gona help his chances.

[er88]

That's true. A good team mate can take pts off other championship rivals, and be used in extreme cases to gift positions to your lead driver. However the best we can hope for at Msport is Loeb does 4or 5 events, and Loubet gets most of the season. Greensmith will pay for his full season, but he's not a help.
However, having a team of those 4 drivers is a hell of a lot better than Msport going into this season without Tanak.

[doubled1978]

They are probably just trying to get Red Bull to pay for the Loeb car in MC, or most of it. Negotiations played in public.

[240RS]

Motorsport.com: "Tanak says he has been assured that M-Sport will be able to maintain the development of the Puma to ensure it remains competitive against the factory Toyota and Hyundai teams that boast bigger budgets.

"I'm sure there is the potential," added Tanak. "The team has a great infrastructure and they have strong support from Ford also, so if we all work together and we really want it badly then we can make everything happen."

If there was any need for clarification on the scale of Ford's involvement, then this is it.

That may very well mean that pay drivers won't be anywhere near as important as they have been. And given that the drivers title appears to be the focus, M-Sport aren't likely to be pulling all stops for second-tier drivers.

[Rallyest]

Motorsport.com: "Tanak says he has been assured that M-Sport will be able to maintain the development of the Puma to ensure it remains competitive against the factory Toyota and Hyundai teams that boast bigger budgets.

"I'm sure there is the potential," added Tanak. "The team has a great infrastructure and they have strong support from Ford also, so if we all work together and we really want it badly then we can make everything happen."

If there was any need for clarification on the scale of Ford's involvement, then this is it.

That may very well mean that pay drivers won't be anywhere near as important as they have been. And given that the drivers title appears to be the focus, M-Sport aren't likely to be pulling all stops for second-tier drivers.


So it is pretty much the same sentence that was quoted on dirtfish article and many others. And from that motorsport.com says The Puma will be developed well, probably is like that but i would take this article with a grain of salt

[EstWRC]

Motorsport.com: "Tanak says he has been assured that M-Sport will be able to maintain the development of the Puma to ensure it remains competitive against the factory Toyota and Hyundai teams that boast bigger budgets.

"I'm sure there is the potential," added Tanak. "The team has a great infrastructure and they have strong support from Ford also, so if we all work together and we really want it badly then we can make everything happen."

If there was any need for clarification on the scale of Ford's involvement, then this is it.

That may very well mean that pay drivers won't be anywhere near as important as they have been. And given that the drivers title appears to be the focus, M-Sport aren't likely to be pulling all stops for second-tier drivers.

Full article if anyone is interested https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/tanak-m-sport-has-everything-to-challenge-for-wrc-title-/10410889/


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[Fast Eddie WRC]

As a former world champion, I'm sure that Tanak will be as demanding as Ogier was when he joined M-Sport - ensuring everyone gives their best and most professional work - and in a way that Breen never could've done.

[EstWRC]

So how did M-Sport pull off the signing of the silly season?

“It is not easy to attract an ex-world champion to the team when we only won one event during the year,” Millener tells Autosport. “You have got to try hard to persuade him that we know what we are doing and this is the right car, package and team to win. And that takes a lot of time.

“I think there is a lot of trust in Malcolm and in us and what we have done. He [Ott] is experienced enough and sensible enough to know what the car is capable of. I think those were the points that allowed him to make the decision to come to us, but it took a long time.

“Often it takes a lot longer to do something like this than people think. There are a lot of complex issues in terms of contracts and various bits that need to be sorted.


“It was a bit like the deal with Loeb in 2022. You think 'is it actually physically possible to achieve this with someone like Ott?' 'Are we setting our sights too high?' I think those thoughts came and went a number of times.

“There was a concerted effort between a number of sponsors and M-Sport and Malcolm himself. We can’t do it without the support of Ford, and not necessarily in fully funding Ott, but in ensuring that we are going to have development and we are going to have a push towards keeping the car as competitive as possible.

“All of those things combined is what has allowed us to get there. It is a great team effort.”

Full article https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/how-m-sports-christmas-came-early-with-tanak-wrc-signing/10410948/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

As a former world champion, I'm sure that Tanak will be as demanding as Ogier was when he joined M-Sport - ensuring everyone gives their best and most professional work - and in a way that Breen never could've done.

“But now we have a driver signed up for a full year who is capable, which gives us a huge opportunity. There are similarities to this year, but it does hark back to 2017 when we signed Ogier and we had an opportunity.

“At the same time, it brings its own challenges. We are going to have to up our game and we need to be the best we can be for Ott to have a chance of doing well next year.”

[Eli]

“But now we have a driver signed up for a full year who is capable, which gives us a huge opportunity. There are similarities to this year, but it does hark back to 2017 when we signed Ogier and we had an opportunity.

“At the same time, it brings its own challenges. We are going to have to up our game and we need to be the best we can be for Ott to have a chance of doing well next year.”

Yes but unlike 2017 they don't have Tänak to support Tänak or even a Evans for that matter, more like 2018 in that respect.

[seb_sh]

From MSport/Tanak perspective if you want to take points away from Rovanpera, Evans or Neuville you need Rovanpera, Evans, Neuville, Tanak, Ogier or Loeb. Of course Greensmith or Loubet can be useful if one of the aforementioned has an issue they can slot themselves in front but otherwise it's hard to argue any of them can take points away from those drivers. The best you can do is first maximise Tanak's points and then slot drivers in front of rivals who have problems because the other good ones are taken. So for me the essental question how many rallies does Loeb do for MSport.

[jparker]

Also, Toyota and Hyundai were nowhere near the high level they currently are. And also, Tanak is nowhere near the level of Ogier.

[jparker]

From MSport/Tanak perspective if you want to take points away from Rovanpera, Evans or Neuville you need Rovanpera, Evans, Neuville, Tanak, Ogier or Loeb. Of course Greensmith or Loubet can be useful if one of the aforementioned has an issue they can slot themselves in front but otherwise it's hard to argue any of them can take points away from those drivers. The best you can do is first maximise Tanak's points and then slot drivers in front of rivals who have problems because the other good ones are taken. So for me the essental question how many rallies does Loeb do for MSport.
It's not going to happen, sorry

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Yes but unlike 2017 they don't have Tänak to support Tänak or even a Evans for that matter, more like 2018 in that respect.

This is a different argument. I was just emphasising that Tanak will rightly be demanding and M-Sport will be enthused by him but also will have to deliver on their side.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

From MSport/Tanak perspective if you want to take points away from Rovanpera, Evans or Neuville you need Rovanpera, Evans, Neuville, Tanak, Ogier or Loeb. Of course Greensmith or Loubet can be useful if one of the aforementioned has an issue they can slot themselves in front but otherwise it's hard to argue any of them can take points away from those drivers. The best you can do is first maximise Tanak's points and then slot drivers in front of rivals who have problems because the other good ones are taken. So for me the essental question how many rallies does Loeb do for MSport.

Tanak knew the team situation when he signed and wasn't put off by the likely lack of 'supporting' team-mates. He probably thinks the other teams top drivers will mostly do the job in taking points off each other.

[seb_sh]

Tanak knew the team situation when he signed and wasn't put off by the likely lack of 'supporting' team-mates. He probably thinks the other teams top drivers will mostly do the job in taking points off each other.

Agree, the most important thing is to maximize Tanak's points.

[macebig]

What are you lot going on about? Tanak left Hyundai in order to be somewhere as the unquestionable team leader and main focus. Why would he agree to a potential repetition of his experience with Neuville?

[AnttiL]

This whole "taking off points" thing is a totally weird concept to me. You can't really plan it in advance, just drive as good as you can, and to win the title you have to be faster than the others, also your teammates.

Especially when people talk about taking points off on power stages. How can you estimate that "I'm going to drive faster than my 1st drivers rivals but not as fast as my 1st driver". Of course it's a different issue if your 1st driver has retired, then just try to win the power stage for yourself.

[ouvreur]

I'd like to think that Tanak is capable of accumulating enough of his own points to win, without needing a wingman to help him out.

Give him a reliable and fast enough car, and he'll be just fine - regardless of who else is using a Puma in 2023.

[Rallyest]

I'd like to think that Tanak is capable of accumulating enough of his own points to win, without needing a wingman to help him out.

Give him a reliable and fast enough car, and he'll be just fine - regardless of who else is using a Puma in 2023.

I agree, 2019 is a perfect example of that.

[Jewy46]

I agree, 2019 is a perfect example of that.

And the latter part of this season, he was the in form driver because he was given a capable car. He is lightning quick and should have more than 1 title (and would if he didn't leave Toyota IMO).
Let's see if this move brings that second crown. I'd have my doubts but happy to be proved wrong

[cali]

I agree, 2019 is a perfect example of that.It was 4 years ago....

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[Rallyest]

It was 4 years ago....

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So you are saying Tänak is slower than in 2019?

I doubt it, he has just been stuck in a Hyundai that doesnt suit his driving style completely, and based on his feedback i think the Puma does, and if the car holds up, which i hope it does based on word from Tänaks and m-sport words about ford involvment then regarding raw speed nobody comes close to him and Kalle, not even Ogier since he isnt driving an full season and does not need to go to the maximum.

I think this year we saw 98% maximum driving from Kalle when he was making every top driver look like sissys, but Ott was probably around 85-90 because of the not trusting the car to go 110%(oy exeption is finland where i believe Tänak went 100% and even over the limit to win)

[cali]

So you are saying Tänak is slower than in 2019?

I doubt it, he has just been stuck in a Hyundai that doesnt suit his driving style completely, and based on his feedback i think the Puma does, and if the car holds up, which i hope it does based on word from Tänaks and m-sport words about ford involvment then regarding raw speed nobody comes close to him and Kalle, not even Ogier since he isnt driving an full season and does not need to go to the maximum.

I think this year we saw 98% maximum driving from Kalle when he was making every top driver look like sissys, but Ott was probably around 85-90 because of the not trusting the car to go 110%(oy exeption is finland where i believe Tänak went 100% and even over the limit to win)All I'm saying what was 2019 doesn't necessarily hold any grounds today. A lot if things have changed including the car and the team, new rallies etc.

You can't draw any conclusions from 2019 when 4 years have passed

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[Rallyest]

All I'm saying what was 2019 doesn't necessarily hold any grounds today. A lot if things have changed including the car and the team, new rallies etc.

You can't draw any conclusions from 2019 when 4 years have passed

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I mean, cars and teams wont affect the fact if you are able to finish first or second on every rally, and i mean Tänak is able to fight for victory on every surface in capable machinery, what for example neuville probably isnt able to whatever car you put him in(fast gravel, snow) then you dont need help from team to steal points.

Kalle, Ott and even Elfyn are drivers who have proved they can be in fight for top 3 positions every rally if the cars clicks right and dont need as much assist from team. They are drivers who are used to get by themselves without team help or orders.

[cali]

I mean, cars and teams wont affect the fact if you are able to finish first or second on every rally, and i mean Tänak is able to fight for victory on every surface in capable machinery, what for example neuville probably isnt able to whatever car you put him in(fast gravel, snow) then you dont need help from team to steal points.

Kalle, Ott and even Elfyn are drivers who have proved they can be in fight for top 3 positions every rally if the cars clicks right and dont need as much assist from team. They are drivers who are used to get by themselves without team help or orders.Okay then, please look and explain Evans's 2021 and 2022 seasons.

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[Rallyest]

Okay then, please look and explain Evans's 2021 and 2022 seasons then.

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2021 he was second, better thann Neuville and Kalle and Tänak...
2022 he had a hard time adappting to new car, which they are trying to improve. that doesnt change raw speed.

[dimviii]

then you dont need help from team to steal points.


everyone driver could need help.
Its not always about speed.There are dnf from crashes,mechanical problems,delay from punctures etc.
Its very easy to be behind in points,while you are fast.

[wyler]

I'd like to think that Tanak is capable of accumulating enough of his own points to win, without needing a wingman to help him out.


so what about all the fuss on team orders?

[Rallyest]

so what about all the fuss on team orders?

if you are talking acropolis, that should of have been a no brainer, first season new cars not needing and doing it when its most reasonable are different, was a slim chance yes, but for sake atleast for 1 title for hyudai they shoud have tried, but i guess maybe they already figured Tänak was leaving and wanted to pamper their main man Thierry

[cali]

2021 he was second, better thann Neuville and Kalle and Tänak...
2022 he had a hard time adappting to new car, which they are trying to improve. that doesnt change raw speed.So based on 2019 you already presume/know that we will see dominating Tänak in a Puma in 2023? :D

While I hope it will be so I can't draw any conclusions based from 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022. Different cars, different teams, different people, different rallies, different rules and very different circumstances concerning his position in the series in a underdog (read: financially weak) team while we have generational talent in a best (well funded) team and car. Can't see how 2019 will be relevant in 2023, just bonkers

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[Rallyest]

So based on 2019 you already presume/know that we will see dominating Tänak in a Puma in 2023? :D

While I hope it will be so I can't draw any conclusions based from 2019, 2020, 2021 or 2022. Different cars, different teams, different people, different rallies, different rules and very different circumstances concerning his position in the series in a underdog (read: financially weak) team while we have generational talent in a best (well funded) team and car. Can't see how 2019 will be relevant in 2023, just bonkers

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Now you are twisting my words. I have not sayd we will see dominating Tänak in 2023, my point was that 2019 is a example of that a driver like Tänak is capable to fight for the title without teammates who can "steal" points from his championship rivals. Never sayd it will happen in 2023, i hope it will and it is a possibility, but please dont make stuff up.

And from a drivers perspective all seasons are relevant. Cars, teams, rallies, people change like you sayd, But talent doesnt.

[cali]

Now you are twisting my words. I have not sayd we will see dominating Tänak in 2023, my point was that 2019 is a example of that a driver like Tänak is capable to fight for the title without teammates who can "steal" points from his championship rivals. Never sayd it will happen in 2023, i hope it will and it is a possibility, but please dont make stuff up.

And from a drivers perspective all seasons are relevant. Cars, teams, rallies, people change like you sayd, But talent doesnt.Even if presume his raw speed hasn't changed you didn't have Rovanperä in a TGR Yaris in 2019. If anybody's going to dominate, it's him and not Ott (hopefully not).

A lot has changed like I said.

Sorry if you felt that I twisted your words and even if ai didn't completely get your point mine still stands. Domination in 2023 in a Puma is not going to happen whether he's capable or not and a lot has changed.

The question for me is whether it was the Puma or Loeb's brilliance remains to be seen about Ford's performance capabilities. In that sense 2019 is irrelevant.




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[DrLill]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ford-linked-to-f1-return-with-red-bull/10411389/

Rumours of Ford being interested in joining F1.

[ouvreur]

so what about all the fuss on team orders?

If he had the sort of team-mates at Hyundai that he will presumably have at M-Sport next year, it wouldn't even have been a discussion, he'd have been ahead of them anyway ;)

[AnttiL]

Motorsport is a combination of driver and machine, so both must work 100% in order to achieve top results. 2019 was an example where that happened for Tänak and Toyota. Of course I can only assume, but I would say that in 2020-2022 it was the machinery that prevented Tänak from proceeding where he left. Not the different car classes, rallies, team circumstances etc. If Puma works for him like Yaris worked in 2019, there's no stopping him, but that one we won't find out until we see how 2023 folds out.

As for team mate support, I would like to see an example of a title won where it wouldn't have happened without a team mate's help.

For example Ogier in 2017:
- Tänak finished several times ahead of Ogier, like in Sweden and Argentina and Australia, but still failed to take points off the biggest rivals Neuville and Latvala
- in Poland Tänak crashed from lead, allowing Ogier's worst rival take big win points (the point interval between Neuville and Ogier became bigger from P1-P3 than it would have been P2-P4).

[Rallyest]

Even if presume his raw speed hasn't changed you didn't have Rovanperä in a TGR Yaris in 2019. If anybody's going to dominate, it's him and not Ott (hopefully not).

A lot has changed like I said.

Sorry if you felt that I twisted your words and even if ai didn't completely get your point mine still stands. Domination in 2023 in a Puma is not going to happen whether he's capable or not and a lot has changed.

The question for me is whether it was the Puma or Loeb's brilliance remains to be seen about Ford's performance capabilities. In that sense 2019 is irrelevant.




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I get your point, and i agree with you. Nobody expects to be full domination in 2023, first of all it would be boring.. but what we or me myself was talking about was that it is possible to win a championship without the help of teammates, if the car holds up and the driver feel comfortable enough to push for the win in every rally in the calendar. If rovanpera would have been there 2019 is irrelevant. 2019 was an first example that came to mind, that it is possible to win a championship even with the lack of help or point stealing from teammates.
Anyway also in my opinion if you are an championship challenger you dont think about if anyone can help to steal points from your competition or anything like that, you go to every rally thinking about only 1 thing and that is how i can win this one. Maybe if you are half a season in and leading you start to think more about strategies

[AndersX]

This is just one big guessing. There will be 4 drivers allowed to go 101%, to fight for championship; support cast - Lappi, Katsuta, Breen/Sordo will be asked to deliver stabile Manu points; they will be fighting for 4-7 places, with some sole exceptions or when top 4 guys crash or have problems. They definitely will be helpful to their top guys if capable to stay in front of any of top4.
In Tanaks case - he will be alone, but as he said it to Motorsport - he likes the underdog status. My only concern - how far back fell the development of Puma when due to the extensive crash-fest in 2022 M-Sport were forced to slow down. If the car is reliable and fast, role of the help is less significant in fight for championship.

[Rallyest]

This is just one big guessing. There will be 4 drivers allowed to go 101%, to fight for championship; support cast - Lappi, Katsuta, Breen/Sordo will be asked to deliver stabile Manu points; they will be fighting for 4-7 places, with some sole exceptions or when top 4 guys crash or have problems. They definitely will be helpful to their top guys if capable to stay in front of any of top4.
In Tanaks case - he will be alone, but as he said it to Motorsport - he likes the underdog status. My only concern - how far back fell the development of Puma when due to the extensive crash-fest in 2022 M-Sport were forced to slow down. If the car is reliable and fast, role of the help is less significant in fight for championship.

Well, i know they have been holding off with a engine update because of the fuel issue, so i dont think performance or quickness of the car is a question. Because even in the later season against the upgraded engined Hyundai and Toyota Loeb and even Loubet were able to show fast times. Main question is how fast and if they can root out the gremlins hindering the Pumas all season. My guess would be they do the engine update, and then see where they land performance wise, my guess is Sweden will be good indication of that, but i guess first half of season will go to making the car more reliable.

Im sure they know what the problems are, they just didnt have budget to deal with them because of the Crash-prone line up and lack of support from Ford, but all indications are that Ford will now backup the development budget more.

[AnttiL]

There will be 4 drivers allowed to go 101%, to fight for championship; support cast - Lappi, Katsuta, Breen/Sordo will be asked to deliver stabile Manu points; they will be fighting for 4-7 places, with some sole exceptions or when top 4 guys crash or have problems.

I think the top four comes naturally by pace, I doubt the others can really challenge regularly for rally wins. Of course Ogier or Loeb when they are driving.

[AndyRAC]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ford-linked-to-f1-return-with-red-bull/10411389/

Rumours of Ford being interested in joining F1.

Imagine them following the M-Sport template; a small budget, very little testing, one decent driver and a slow pay driver........

I'll believe that when I see it; they can't possibly afford it.

[seb_sh]

Imagine them following the M-Sport template; a small budget, very little testing, one decent driver and a slow pay driver........

I'll believe that when I see it; they can't possibly afford it.

If you read the article it would probably just be a rebadging job on the RBPT engine, pure marketing. That would not cost as much and would not cause any operational complications.

[AndyRAC]

If you read the article it would probably just be a rebadging job on the RBPT engine, pure marketing. That would not cost as much and would not cause any operational complications.

Yes, I know - I was being 'tongue in cheek'/ facetious....

[seb_sh]

This whole "taking off points" thing is a totally weird concept to me. You can't really plan it in advance, just drive as good as you can, and to win the title you have to be faster than the others, also your teammates.

Especially when people talk about taking points off on power stages. How can you estimate that "I'm going to drive faster than my 1st drivers rivals but not as fast as my 1st driver". Of course it's a different issue if your 1st driver has retired, then just try to win the power stage for yourself.

I thought you had an interesting point here and took a look out of curiosity. Now this is in no way rigurous I just skimmed the standings going back to 2000 and looked when the team mates slotted between the title combatants, I didn't look at power stages. Sorry if i made any mistakes:

2009 - 1. Loeb, 2. Sordo, 3. Hirvonen on two rallies gives 4 more points in favor of Loeb, the final points are 93 vs 92 for Loeb. So without Sordo beating Hirvonen twice Loeb is not champion.
2007 - Sordo between Loeb and Gronholm gives Loeb 7 extra points, final points are 116 vs 112 for Loeb. So again Sordo decides the champion.
2006 - Again Sordo, twice between Loeb and Gronholm gives 4 fewer points to the finn and the title goes to Loeb. The final difference is 1 point so with no Sordo then Gronholm is champion.

Counterexamples:
2008 - Sordo finished between Loeb and Hirvonen a few times, in total that gave Loeb 7 more points compared to if he wasn't between them but it doesn't the change title
2011 - Loeb and Ogier splitting wins between them gave Hirvonen a chance to keep up.
2003 - Sainz finished ahead of Loeb a couple of times giving him 2 fewer points and losing the title by 1 point.

in the rest of the years i couldn't see any significant influence from team-mates to the title.

So from about 20 years there 3 times where having a proper wingman was worth it, maybe we should give Sordo more credit!

[AnttiL]

I thought you had an interesting point here and took a look out of curiosity. Now this is in no way rigurous I just skimmed the standings going back to 2000 and looked when the team mates slotted between the title combatants, I didn't look at power stages. Sorry if i made any mistakes:

2009 - 1. Loeb, 2. Sordo, 3. Hirvonen on two rallies gives 4 more points in favor of Loeb, the final points are 93 vs 92 for Loeb. So without Sordo beating Hirvonen twice Loeb is not champion.
2007 - Sordo between Loeb and Gronholm gives Loeb 7 extra points, final points are 116 vs 112 for Loeb. So again Sordo decides the champion.
2006 - Again Sordo, twice between Loeb and Gronholm gives 4 fewer points to the finn and the title goes to Loeb. The final difference is 1 point so with no Sordo then Gronholm is champion.

Counterexamples:
2008 - Sordo finished between Loeb and Hirvonen a few times, in total that gave Loeb 7 more points compared to if he wasn't between them but it doesn't the change title
2011 - Loeb and Ogier splitting wins between them gave Hirvonen a chance to keep up.
2003 - Sainz finished ahead of Loeb a couple of times giving him 2 fewer points and losing the title by 1 point.

in the rest of the years i couldn't see any significant influence from team-mates to the title.

So from about 20 years there 3 times where having a proper wingman was worth it, maybe we should give Sordo more credit!

Good research, thanks!

2009 is also a sort of counter example when Latvala crashed in Poland, Loeb got more points...

[drive]

Loubet confirmed in the second Puma
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-confirms-full-time-drive-for-new-duo/

[Rallyest]

Loubet confirmed in the second Puma
https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-confirms-full-time-drive-for-new-duo/

Really great news, i hope he can take the next step this year, he should be used to with the car now, and if he can and is willing to learn from Ott, and Ott is there to aid him i think he will do very well.

[Danny0405]

In addition to that, a side driver helping «*directly*» or «*indirectly*» his lead driver is not always visible by the points taken to other title challengers.
In terms of drivers having been a good help for his lead driver, one of the 1st name coming to my mind (in addition to Sordo 2008 in Catalunya) is Evans in 2018 with M-Sport. Without him giving better road position, giving some points, worsening Neuville’s comparative road position to Ogier after the Belgian’s road position + the Catalunya stuff, I’m not sure at all Ogier would have won the title.
We can also evoke Burns’ 2001 title with a bit of help from Martin and Solberg in Corsica.

When the fight is tight for the title, a good side driver in the team can always be an important help for one thing or another at one moment.
It is not absolutely necessary to win (Loeb or Ogier could have won the majority of their driver titles even with Serderidis or Bertelli or Al Qassimi as side driver in Citroen; we can also quote Meeke and Latvala who were quite inefficient during the season where Tanak won his title, at another level than Serderidis for sure) but sometimes, it helps.
However, it’s difficult to know which side driver will be effective because it’s a lot a question of opportunity of being in the mix at a given moment (and not a question of just being overall good even if it improves the probability).

[Danny0405]

M-Sport officially announced full-time season for Loubet (EDIT: announced before sorry)
I’m not sure about his potential as he has a lot of experience on WRC events and his current hype is a bit driven by the failures of other M-Sport drivers last year, but we cannot criticize to see a young driver with a full-time seat in the current situation.
So good to see him with a good opportunity and in the end, except maybe Lindholm, there is not really another youngsters deserving more the opportunity.
Considering the announcement, probably some backing brought by him.

A bit surprised about Greensmith still not being announced. And if the rumors about Toyota were true? Maybe is he reluctant about the «*All for Ott*» policy?
Or just the contract terms being discussed?

[AndersX]

A bit surprised about Greensmith still not being announced. And if the rumors about Toyota were true? Maybe is he reluctant about the «*All for Ott*» policy?
Or just the contract terms being discussed?

Possibly due to Tanak and Loubet the price to be named official M-Sport driver has rosen and that has put some negotiations on hold?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great news for Loubet and a reward for the improvement he showed in 2022.

[flat_right]

A bit surprised about Greensmith still not being announced. And if the rumors about Toyota were true? Maybe is he reluctant about the «*All for Ott*» policy?
Or just the contract terms being discussed?

Isn't the case with Greensmith rather than if he has the funds to drive. As I have understood, he has been a pay driver and if he has some funds I think M-Sport will welcome him with open hands. Or has the price for pay drive also risen? Or is Greensmith trying to have the Yaris?

Really happy for Loubet though :)

[er88]

Isn't the case with Greensmith rather than if he has the funds to drive. As I have understood, he has been a pay driver and if he has some funds I think M-Sport will welcome him with open hands. Or has the price for pay drive also risen? Or is Greensmith trying to have the Yaris?

Really happy for Loubet though :)I think Greensmith funds his whole campaign, it isn't even like he brings some partners or partial payment. He effectively does what someone like Bertelli did. So if he can't pay for the car he won't be in the team

[Danny0405]

I think Greensmith funds his whole campaign, it isn't even like he brings some partners or partial payment. He effectively does what someone like Bertelli did. So if he can't pay for the car he won't be in the team

Well, for sure, considering his poor season, Greensmith has to pay for everything (whereas Loubet probably pays partially only). But except if the family has cut the spendings (possible), I don’t think it’s a big issue.
I would more see a question about being the guarantee to make it in good conditions; it’s a bit of difference between Bertelli and Greensmith there; I don’t think Bertelli ever thought he could compete for podiums at least (while Greensmith, even if he needs favorable conditions, could)
With the «*all for Ott*» strategy and limited testing days (and probably a lot taken by Ott), maybe there is a point about this and apparently, the testing will be simpler for privateer. So if he can pay for the Toyota, he may do less rallies but in better conditions maybe (with even more road position advantages).

Loubet’s situation is different; he has some good backing but not something that would allow sensibly to pay the Toyota which is very expensive so it is M-Sport or nothing.

[WRCStan]

I think Greensmith funds his whole campaign, it isn't even like he brings some partners or partial payment. He effectively does what someone like Bertelli did. So if he can't pay for the car he won't be in the team

I'd expect some discount when fulfilling m-sport's obligations, Bertelli never did drive 'M' like Gus. Would expect Loubet to have done the same for 2023.

[TypeR]

so RedBull isn't on the cars anymore..? As neither Tanak or Loubet(+ Gus) aren't RB athletes..

[Eli]

so RedBull isn't on the cars anymore..? As neither Tanak or Loubet(+ Gus) aren't RB athletes..

If Loeb isn't there next season, that seems to be the case, shame, loved their livery.

[J4MIE]

That's not how corporate budgets work.

That’s completely missing the point.

[RS]

Loeb a Red Bull driver, Mikkelsen a Red Bull driver.. share the third Puma? Or is Mikkelsen’s deal just a minor driver sponsorship with the Norwegian importer?

Still expect Greensmith to be the third car!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I still expect Greensmith to be in a Puma in 2023 - although he / they did have a fair few faults with it last season and he may think the Yaris is more reliable...

[Danny0405]

I still expect Greensmith to be in a Puma in 2023 - although he / they did have a fair few faults with it last season and he may think the Yaris is more reliable...

From the rumors, question mark sounds more about the treatment for other drivers (test days, quality of the car, ...) compared with Tanak considering the «*All for Ott*» strategy clearly told by Millener and Wilson.
And, liking or not Greensmith, it’s understandable, when you’re a client, that you have some concerns about it. So I think it’s understandable he is taking a look at what M-Sport and Toyota could offer him as guarantees; last 2 years, Toyota has clearly proved they can drive 4 cars; the concern may be more about the calendar and if they will do the job correctly for a client (Lappi 2021 stint was a bit particular as it was a test for 2022).

Probably some news soon, I don’t think M-Sport is discarded but probably close call and discussing the details.

[Kenneth]

Formaux and Munster in WRC2 with M-Sport

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fourmaux-demoted-to-m-sports-wrc2-program/

[Danny0405]

Not a big surprise considering the last rumors.
Well, with Fourmaux, Munster and Virves, it gives an interesting line-up for Fiesta Rally2 for next year. But for sure, the main topic is to know if the forecasted updates of the car will be enough.
Even though, it gives a good bunch of youngster with the Pajari-Bulacia-Gryazin-Lindholm-Solberg (and maybe Ingram) Toksport bunch, Rossel in Citroen and let’s see for Hyundai.

Interested to know how much these drivers are backed:
- For Virves, it’s FIA due to prize drive (and some backing probably to obtain the additional 2 rounds)
- For Munster, it’s known Serderidis will back him by reducing his own program. However, I don’t totally understand his choice of M-Sport against Hyundai considering the qualities of the two cars. Some rumors in Belgian news that maybe a reward with 1 or 2 drives in Serderidis’ Rally1 (probably depending on the results in Rally2).
- For Fourmaux, don’t know if Red Bull still back him; or maybe Yacco again?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I hope Munster has more luck at M-Sport as he always seemed to have a lot of misfortune in his previous cars.

[Andre Oliveira]

Virves will be RedGrey? Linnamae too?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport;

"M-Sport team principal Richard Millener told Autosport that talks with Greensmith “to understand what we can do with him for the season” were set to be held last week.

It appears those discussions have failed to result in a renewal of the Briton’s full-time deal with the Cumbrian organisation."

[Managarium]

We gonna miss him so much :o

[mknight]

Well if he has the money to pay for Toyota I can somehow get it.

Then again Toyota say they only have 4th car available on the events Ogier is not doing, and those are mostly the events that do not suit Greensmith much either.

[Danny0405]

Well if he has the money to pay for Toyota I can somehow get it.

Then again Toyota say they only have 4th car available on the events Ogier is not doing, and those are mostly the events that do not suit Greensmith much either.

Well, personally, Greensmith, I find hard to see which rallies suit him best considering his past results.
Except Monte-Carlo (one win in R5 class against French guys + his last year drive), I found him very average everywhere; he did some good time in Croatia before his drop in results and confidence and maybe some rough rallyes; I think the place where Ogier won’t be there could cover a part of it (I would think Ogier out in Sweden, Croatia, Sardinia, Estonia, Finland + Greece or Chile).

Some people in another thread talked about Skoda RS: well, except if the family has limited the money, I don’t really see the point because I don’t think he has the speed for this.

Else, we know the program of Serderidis now apparently: Monte-Carlo, Mexico, Sardinia, Kenya, maybe Greece.
Probably that Bertelli will do as usual 2 rounds, Sweden (no incompatibility with fashion week this time) and probably one abroad one (Chile as in 2019?).
It would let a 3rd entry available (if we assume M-Sport is reducing his number of entries this year to purely paying drivers to focus on Tanak) for a 5-6 European round program with Croatia, Portugal, Estonia, Finland, maybe Greece and Central Europa (however, some rumors about Munster being authorized to do 1 or 2 Rally1 outings depending on his results). Well, not a bad shot for some drivers and probably available for less money than the Toyota 4th car (very expensive according to some drivers interviews). I wouldn’t be surprised to see a driver announcing a program like this a bit lately in February like Loubet did last year.
Question may be more about who: Mikkelsen probably knows it’s now his last chance to come back so maybe he is changing his mind about paying and is trying to find some backing? Huttunen sounds complicated considering Gronholm’s comments after Finland (and more globally, the situation sounds very loomy for him considering his last interview). A lot of young drivers have already set a big RC2 program. That type of program could suit Suninen also.
Some would say Loeb, I’m pretty pessimistic after Monte Carlo negotiations failed and I don’t see him going in Croatia (doesn’t seem to be appealed by it and W2RC calendar is not favorable), Estonia or Finland but one or two one-offs (Portugal and Greece especially) cannot be totally discarded but will depend a lot on his other involvements.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@MSportLtd
Gus, you entered the sport with us 8 years ago, from your first events in an R1 to a Puma Rally1 against the best in the world. It’s a sad day, as today, Gus and M-Sport part ways. This isn’t the end or a goodbye. It’s a sincere and heartfelt thanks. All the best for the future.


Gus Greensmith @GreensmithGus
8 years through thick & thin together, I wouldn’t have changed it for the world. To everyone at M-Sport, all I have to say is thank you & ciao for now...

[er88]

So has the money run out? Or he's finally realised he isn't ever going to be competing at the front?


Or Toyota partial campaign ?

[Danny0405]

So has the money run out? Or he's finally realised he isn't ever going to be competing at the front?


Or Toyota partial campaign ?

If I had to bet, I would say a season like 2022-Kajto season in WRC2 with Mexico, Safari, Chile, Japan + 3 other rallies (Sardinia, Greece and another); maybe one outing in Toyota also but I don’t believe so.

I don’t think the money has ran out considering Latvala’s comments in the newspapers.
But, in the end, I don’t really see the point of renting the 4th Toyota for a program around Sweden-Croatia-Sardinia-Estonia-Finland and Chile or Greece (most probably the 2nd one). Considering Serderidis’ program and Bertelli’s habits, M-Sport clearly had a similar program to offer in a 3rd car and for less money probably. Maybe he was afraid of «*All for Ott*» strategy? But Latvala sounds to say he wanted a full program

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Seems they couldn't agree a deal because he wanted a full season and M-Sport couldn't offer this to a 3rd driver. Strange though that Loubet got the 2nd car ahead of Gus.

But he's not going to get F/time drive in a Rally1 car anywhere else, so it would mean a WRC2 program with another team (MSport having already agreed their drivers in WRC2).

[er88]

Seems they couldn't agree a deal because he wanted a full season and M-Sport couldn't offer this to a 3rd driver. Strange though that Loubet got the 2nd car ahead of Gus.

But he's not going to get F/time drive in a Rally1 car anywhere else, so it would mean a WRC2 program with another team (MSport having already agreed their drivers in WRC2).Loubet might genuinely have proper potential though.

[dimviii]

Strange though that Loubet got the 2nd car ahead of Gus.

.

its not strange,Loubet has more potential

[skarderud]

Rumours of Mikkelsen in M-sport, maybe a joint thing between Ford and redbull?

Sent fra min SM-S901B via Tapatalk

[Danny0405]

Don’t forget also that Loubet has some backing still next season apparently considering the image of the announcement (a French company called AEC is his main backer since post-Covid 2020 and his first outings in RC1, with some others in 2022 and AEC is quoted in the announcement picture for 2023).

+ Millener said that M-Sport puts some money on Greensmith: for sure Greensmith is paying a big part but maybe «*only*» 80-90% of the true budget of running the car (residual part paid by M-Sport).
Maybe it’s one of the reason of the split also.

About Mikkelsen, well, Loeb’s situation sounds complicated for 2023 in WRC, especially if he follows with Extreme E and W2RC (I saw Croatia and Portugal are not compliant with these calendars & Mexico and Greece sounds really complicated in addition to Monte). Would let maybe an opening for Sardinia-Safari and Central Europe.
But if Mikkelsen finalizes something with some other backing (if he finally accepts to pay to drive and to bring some backing), he could take the seat for 5-7 rounds.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

its not strange,Loubet has more potential

Quite possibly but Greensmith has a long history there and pumped a lot of cash into M-Sport.

The split seems very amicable so we'll have to wait and see the full reasons.

[WUff1]

Formaux and Munster in WRC2 with M-Sport

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fourmaux-demoted-to-m-sports-wrc2-program/

Not only Fourmeaux, but also Munster has entered at Jänner Rallye in Austria, 05.01.-07.01.2023

[Sulland]

Mikkelsen says to parcferme.no that he is not in any discussions with
M-Sport regarding Puma in MC or Sweden.

He is still working on getting some sort of program together for 2023, but has no firm plan as of now, he says.

Too bad, would have liked to see him in a Puma!

[Danny0405]

Especially bad news for the championship in terms of average number of Rally1 cars per event.
People are complaining about only 10 Rally1 cars in Monte-Carlo (including Serderidis) but, with the current rumors, we could have a lot of rallies (4?) with only 8. And a global average of only 9.

At the moment,
Toyota has 3.5 cars in average for the season
Hyundai 3
M-Sport has only 2 official drivers
Serderidis will make 4
And we can expect Bertelli to do 2 as usual.

Well, meaning an average of 9 cars per event (including 0.5 «*very*» gentleman driver with Bertelli and Serderidis). The lowest number for the main category for a long time.

Let’s expect one driver or 2 could rent a half-season with M-Sport and/or Toyota but I hardly see who considering all the programs already set.

[mousti]

Serderidis announced he Will be the 3rd driver for MSport with his Puma in Monte Carlo, Mexico, Sardegna and Safari Rally.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn 2201123G met Tapatalk

[Jarek Z]

Mikkelsen says to parcferme.no that he is not in any discussions with
M-Sport regarding Puma in MC or Sweden.
(...)
Too bad, would have liked to see him in a Puma!

For sure Mikkelsen would be much better than Loubet, Greensmith and Serderidis!

[cali]

For sure Mikkelsen would be much better than Loubet, Greensmith and Serderidis!Serderidis beings funding which is not the case with Mikkelsen. With Gus I think everything changed when TGR released one car for rent for a half of the rallies. I think they believe to show more pace in Yaris which IMHO doesn't bring him any factory seat so pointless to try unless they are there to get different experience for their money.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

For sure Mikkelsen would be much better than Loubet, Greensmith and Serderidis!

Greensmith is not a part of M-Sport's roster next year.

From M-Sport's perspective: Mikkelsen doesn't bring them a world title. And doesn't bring money. The two other drivers will bring money. So in that sense those guys are better for M-Sport.

[Rallyper]

Serderidis announced he Will be the 3rd driver for MSport with his Puma in Monte Carlo, Mexico, Sardegna and Safari Rally.

Verstuurd vanaf mijn 2201123G met Tapatalk

Well, certainly he will get manu points, the way pointscoring system is constructed.

[AnttiL]

Well, certainly he will get manu points, the way pointscoring system is constructed.

They don't have to nominate three drivers. I think we saw this case in Acropolis 2021 when Serderidis was the third Fiesta WRC but not running for manu points.

[Rallyper]

They don't have to nominate three drivers. I think we saw this case in Acropolis 2021 when Serderidis was the third Fiesta WRC but not running for manu points.

Of course they will if they only bring three cars, Serderidis included.Why compare to Acropolis 2021, anyway? Now is 2023 season coming...

[AnttiL]

Of course they will if they only bring three cars, Serderidis included.Why compare to Acropolis 2021, anyway? Now is 2023 season coming...

Well, we'll find out soon.

[Danny0405]

They didn’t do it with Bertelli in New Zealand this year, even if there were no more target for them.
And globally, as far as I remember, they never do so with a pure «*gentlemen driver*» client whereas they could have done it multiple times (I don’t account Bouffier in 2018 or Greensmith in 2019 as Bouffier had some references in MC and Greensmith won one time his class in RC2 and was viewed with some potential by the team).
I can quote Jocius (1st rally of the year) or Gross both in 2020 as the most recent examples with Bertelli.
As they clearly say, they target only Driver title and with no real 3rd driver coming later apparently, at first glance, I would see them not changing it.

However, one point may be changing their strategy and make them asking a bit of help to Serderidis: the new rule about the PET testing days; if I remember correctly, it will be 21 days for 3-car team and 14 for 2-car team but with a real freedom on how to use it. As teams are not making specific PET for Monte Carlo and as Serderidis won’t make a lot of European rounds, maybe they could register Serderidis as a manufacturer driver in Monte Carlo to gain one more testing day for Tanak later in the season? All the more than with only 2 «*big*» cars, M-Sport won’t have that much days to focus on their lead driver (even if we can assume Loubet will be largely sacrificed for Tanak). But I don’t know enough how the rule works (especially about how to define how many days you’ve between 14 and 21 if you’ve a part-time 3rd car) to say if this trick is valuable or not, it’s more of a question to people here knowing the rule more precisely.

At least, it’s much more consistent than Citroen 2019 strategy; they were saying with target all the titles but with only 2 cars which was almost impossible considering how close where the cars (with Citroen a bit behind the others) and the level of the lead drivers; here, M-Sport is in the same situation but they clearly say «*WDC title is the only target*» and they took a backed driver as 2nd driver (only thing is that they will have sometimes a 3rd driver as a pure client).

[Rallyper]

They didn’t do it with Bertelli in New Zealand this year, even if there were no more target for them.
And globally, as far as I remember, they never do so with a pure «*gentlemen driver*» client whereas they could have done it multiple times (I don’t account Bouffier in 2018 or Greensmith in 2019 as Bouffier had some references in MC and Greensmith won one time his class in RC2 and was viewed with some potential by the team).
I can quote Jocius (1st rally of the year) or Gross both in 2020 as the most recent examples with Bertelli.
As they clearly say, they target only Driver title and with no real 3rd driver coming later apparently, at first glance, I would see them not changing it.

However, one point may be changing their strategy and make them asking a bit of help to Serderidis: the new rule about the PET testing days; if I remember correctly, it will be 21 days for 3-car team and 14 for 2-car team but with a real freedom on how to use it. As teams are not making specific PET for Monte Carlo and as Serderidis won’t make a lot of European rounds, maybe they could register Serderidis as a manufacturer driver in Monte Carlo to gain one more testing day for Tanak later in the season? All the more than with only 2 «*big*» cars, M-Sport won’t have that much days to focus on their lead driver (even if we can assume Loubet will be largely sacrificed for Tanak). But I don’t know enough how the rule works (especially about how to define how many days you’ve between 14 and 21 if you’ve a part-time 3rd car) to say if this trick is valuable or not, it’s more of a question to people here knowing the rule more precisely.

At least, it’s much more consistent than Citroen 2019 strategy; they were saying with target all the titles but with only 2 cars which was almost impossible considering how close where the cars (with Citroen a bit behind the others) and the level of the lead drivers; here, M-Sport is in the same situation but they clearly say «*WDC title is the only target*» and they took a backed driver as 2nd driver (only thing is that they will have sometimes a 3rd driver as a pure client).

Sounds reasonable to me.

[AnttiL]

However, one point may be changing their strategy and make them asking a bit of help to Serderidis: the new rule about the PET testing days; if I remember correctly, it will be 21 days for 3-car team and 14 for 2-car team but with a real freedom on how to use it. As teams are not making specific PET for Monte Carlo and as Serderidis won’t make a lot of European rounds, maybe they could register Serderidis as a manufacturer driver in Monte Carlo to gain one more testing day for Tanak later in the season? All the more than with only 2 «*big*» cars, M-Sport won’t have that much days to focus on their lead driver (even if we can assume Loubet will be largely sacrificed for Tanak). But I don’t know enough how the rule works (especially about how to define how many days you’ve between 14 and 21 if you’ve a part-time 3rd car) to say if this trick is valuable or not, it’s more of a question to people here knowing the rule more precisely.


Sorry but this is irrelevant. If you are registered as a manufacturer, you get 21 testing days, simple as that. The 7*driver rule applies to teams like Hyundai 2C or TGR NG. :)

But I agree with your other points. M-Sport is not going for a manufacturer title, and that's why then enter just two cars in a rally minimum, or five cars if there's enough paying customers. They don't need to "share" cars to get complete seasons or think about starting order etc.

[Danny0405]

Sorry but this is irrelevant. If you are registered as a manufacturer, you get 21 testing days, simple as that. The 7*driver rule applies to teams like Hyundai 2C or TGR NG. :)

You probably know better than me but it’s not why I understood from this Dirtfish article (but I haven’t checked more than this)

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/why-are-rally1-teams-not-testing-for-monte-in-december/


In terms of event preparation, for 2022 the equation was simple: one day per driver per European round of the championship. For a three-car team this season, that meant 30 days.

For a three-car team in 2023, it’s a flat rate of 21 days. If you’re a two-car team, it’s 14 days.

And the teams can use those days wherever and with whoever they like.

If, for example, Toyota wanted to give its world champion Kalle Rovanperä the best possible prep for the mountains, they could slot the Finn into a 10-day test taking in the best and the worst of the weather and the most capricious of the conditions.

But that would leave them with only 11 days for Rovanperä, Elfyn Evans and the shared car of Sébastien Ogier and Takamoto Katsuta for the remaining 12 rounds.

[AnttiL]

Well, Dirtfish has misunderstood it. The rules speak clearly of manufacturers and teams separately and it's clear what they mean.


PARTICIPATION – MANUFACTURER
A Manufacturer:
5.2.1 Undertakes to take part in all the rallies of the Championship with a minimum of two (2) World Rally Cars complying with the 2023 Appendix J, Article 262.

5.3 PARTICIPATION – WRC TEAM
A WRC Team;
5.3.1 Undertakes to take part in a minimum of 7 nominated rallies including one outside Europe with up to two World Rally Cars of the homologation number 400/01 WRC or Ra1-22/XX.
5.3.2 Will be eligible to score points only when there is a team scoring points in the WRC Manufacturer Championship with the same car homologation.
5.3.5 Cannot nominate a driver who has been nominated to score points in the corresponding Manufacturer Team in the same season.


Here's what it says about testng.

68.4.2 In the case of a Manufacturer, a maximum of 21 days. In the case of a WRC Team, a maximum of 7 days plus an additional 1 day per entered driver for any second nominated driver, up to a maximum of 7 days per driver and a maximum of 14 days per team. This clause does not apply to testing as stated in Art. 68.1.1.

[Danny0405]

Thank you for the information.
Interesting that it is 21 days for all manufacturers whatever the number of cars; with only 2 cars, it means M-Sport would have quite an advantage to give test days for Tanak against the other leaders (Rovanpera, Neuville); even if we can imagine Toyota and Hyundai will sacrifice a bit the 3rd driver

Other question: how does it work for privateer entered by a manufacturer but not registered as a manufacturer driver? (It was the case for Bertelli and Serderidis this year if I remind well). Because if their PET days don’t account in the 21 days, clearly, it gives even less interest to put Serderidis as manufacturer driver.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport is confident it can keep up with its factory World Rally Championship rivals Toyota and Hyundai in the development race to provide Ott Tanak an opportunity to challenge.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-confident-it-can-up-its-wrc-game-for-tanak-/10414608/

[AnttiL]

Thank you for the information.
Interesting that it is 21 days for all manufacturers whatever the number of cars; with only 2 cars, it means M-Sport would have quite an advantage to give test days for Tanak against the other leaders (Rovanpera, Neuville); even if we can imagine Toyota and Hyundai will sacrifice a bit the 3rd driver

Other question: how does it work for privateer entered by a manufacturer but not registered as a manufacturer driver? (It was the case for Bertelli and Serderidis this year if I remind well). Because if their PET days don’t account in the 21 days, clearly, it gives even less interest to put Serderidis as manufacturer driver.

Well, a two-car team doesn't really fight for the manufacturers title. As for drivers title, a three-car team could also just give all their test days to the lead driver.

Serderidis and other privateers are most likely outside test day limits as long as they don't drive for manufacturer points. And we saw this in Acropolis 2021: Serderidis drove the third Fiesta WRC but not for manufacturer points. I assume the same would happen this year.