M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Easy better than todays lineup.
He is a proven winner, thats not anything you can say about those others, exept Loeb.

Who would you prefer? Meeke? Or another paydriver?

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I dont see any great performances in WRC cars by him since VW 2016.

Breen did very well in the i20 WRC in 2021 and I accept he was the best available that were not signed up the the other top factory teams. I dont see anyone else that will guarantee better results.

[skarderud]

I dont see any great performances in WRC cars by him since VW 2016.

Breen did very well in the i20 WRC in 2021 and I accept he was the best available that were not signed up the the other top factory teams. I dont see anyone else that will guarantee better results.Breen was the only one doing good in the Hyundai besides Neuville, not even Loeb, so that is no measure at all.
He don't work that great in the Ford, do you think?
I agree that he was an interesting choice, but maybe not as an team leader.
Mikkelsen did good in the Citröen, you have to admit, but the Hyundai didn't suit him, like all the other "bad" drivers as Loeb, Tänak, Sordo.....

The reigning WRC2 and ERC champion should get a chance in WRC1, without bringing money.
I know Mikkelsen got a offer from M-sport, but he refuses to pay to drive, and i agree in that choice.

I hope Ford put some pressure to M-sport about this pay to drive politics.

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[bandit12]

Breen did very well in the i20 WRC in 2021...

Breen did well only on fast and flowing rallyes..
Where he was in Croatia last year...
He's not bad. Just he has not had proper full season yet.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen was the only one doing good in the Hyundai besides Neuville, not even Loeb, so that is no measure at all.
He don't work that great in the Ford, do you think?
I agree that he was an interesting choice, but maybe not as an team leader.
Mikkelsen did good in the Citröen, you have to admit, but the Hyundai didn't suit him, like all the other "bad" drivers as Loeb, Tänak, Sordo.....

The reigning WRC2 and ERC champion should get a chance in WRC1, without bringing money.
I know Mikkelsen got a offer from M-sport, but he refuses to pay to drive, and i agree in that choice.

I hope Ford put some pressure to M-sport about this pay to drive politics.



A few things...

Mikkelsen has had a long career and many, many chances, so why didnt he get a drive when VW quit you have to ask.

Breen hasnt started 2022 so well but its still early days and new car which another new driver would have to learn. Give him a bit more time.

ERC & WRC2 Champions ? I dont believe they are a better bet than Breen and would need to learn even more rallies.

Pay to drive - well that's because its not a full factory team and they cant afford salaries for a squad of drivers. Blame Ford, not M-Sport.
Breen is paid and he's their choice of those available and I think MW knows best who to pick and pay.

[WRCStan]

It's not so simple debate as who is a better driver, the required risk-tolerance is a lot lower at M-Sport than at Toyota or Hyundai, so if Dr.IverX was at M-Sport fighting for wins, he may get away with it for one round or two, but not 13. He'd be told to tone it down, pay-driver or salaried, even Loeb. Perhaps an owner-customer is free to fight but... oh. When have M-Sport consistently podiumed without manufacturer insurance?

[tommeke_B]

When have M-Sport consistently podiumed without manufacturer insurance?
When Neuville was driving there... Or Tänak (his last year), or Ogier.

For next year, maybe M-Sport needs Neuville or Tänak to become champion, and Neuville or Tänak may need M-Sport to become champion... ;)

[mknight]

I dont see any great performances in WRC cars by him since VW 2016.

Breen did very well in the i20 WRC in 2021 and I accept he was the best available that were not signed up the the other top factory teams. I dont see anyone else that will guarantee better results.

Mikkelsen: 2017 Germany 2nd with C3 - best C3 tarmac result to date)
2019 - Argentina (2nd), Sardinia (3rd - epic Sunday)

There are a few extra podiums here and there, and great performances ruined by the car (Turkey 2018, Sardinia 2018).

But if you choose not to look you wont find.


Breen had zero decent results outside fast gravel/snow with the exception of Ypres 2021 where he was one of the two drivers with previous experience.

Before this season the choice between Mikkelsen and Breen was between "sure" performace around the podium (Mikkelsen) that probably won't surprise much and "risky" Breen with less experience that might surprise.

So far Breen only surprised negatively. (Here he went off again, besides no good stagetimes). On a rally where all 4 other Puma drivers had top 3 or almost top 3 times.
Sure he can still improve, after all his first 3 ralllies at Hyundai were also pretty bad.

But right now it looks kind of funny that he is the only driver getting paid at MSport.

[er88]

Breen was the only one doing good in the Hyundai besides Neuville, not even Loeb, so that is no measure at all.
He don't work that great in the Ford, do you think?
I agree that he was an interesting choice, but maybe not as an team leader.
Mikkelsen did good in the Citröen, you have to admit, but the Hyundai didn't suit him, like all the other "bad" drivers as Loeb, Tänak, Sordo.....

The reigning WRC2 and ERC champion should get a chance in WRC1, without bringing money.
I know Mikkelsen got a offer from M-sport, but he refuses to pay to drive, and i agree in that choice.

I hope Ford put some pressure to M-sport about this pay to drive politics.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkI wouldn't say Mikkelsen did good in the Citroen. He was god awful in Sardinia with an amazing road position, didn't do well in Poland (which was meant to be his best rally), but he did very well in Germany

Then went to Hyundai and said the car suited him better than the Citroen, reminded him of the Polo, but got absolutely battered by Neuville. Similar to how Ogier dominated him for years at VW in the same car.

In terms of raw pace Mikkelsen has also at times been shown up by Lappi/Suninen/Ostberg etc in wrc2, despite being the champion.


However I would still have him at Msport because he's better than Fourmaux and Greensmith. That's obvious. An Msport lineup of Breen, Mikkelsen and then a shared 3rd car of Loeb/Meeke/Suninen would've been a proper lineup.
Let "pay" drivers like Greensmith/Fourmaux/Loubet prop up the 2nd team.

As things stand, it's sad to see that Msport have built a great car but haven't put together the best possible lineup available. Don't understand why Ford are happy considering the budget and input they put into this cars development.

[er88]

Mikkelsen: 2017 Germany 2nd with C3 - best C3 tarmac result to date)

.

That's stretching though, Meeke was leading Corsica until his engine blew and won in Spain because of tarmac performance.

[mknight]

That's stretching though, Meeke was leading Corsica until his engine blew and won in Spain because of tarmac performance.

"Best result to date" which it was. Spain was later and without rain. Meeke on Corsica had half rally to go and was just starting to lose time.

Why do you always have to "adjust" the reality a bit?

Like saying Suninen beat Mikkelsen in Rally2? Like when? Here by leading with 15s before getting a puncture on friday stages that Mikkelsen never drove before?

Talk about stretching.

[WRCStan]

When Neuville was driving there... Or Tänak (his last year), or Ogier.

For next year, maybe M-Sport needs Neuville or Tänak to become champion, and Neuville or Tänak may need M-Sport to become champion... ;)

Tanak '17 yes, still had VW covering Ogier and a title sponsor for Neuville's 'year'. Also the strongest opposition were fresh faced in those years. I stand by my point.

[steve.mandzij]

"Best result to date" which it was. Spain was later and without rain. Meeke on Corsica had half rally to go and was just starting to lose time.

Why do you always have to "adjust" the reality a bit?

Like saying Suninen beat Mikkelsen in Rally2? Like when? Here by leading with 15s before getting a puncture on friday stages that Mikkelsen never drove before?

Talk about stretching.Remember that Mikkelsen would have won in Germany 2017 if he hadn't made mistakes like going off into a field while in the lead.

His biggest problem was always staying in the lead once he got it and not making mistakes under pressure. He was rarely able to.

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[Gordini]

They could give Mikkelson a real test. both gravel and tarmac. Collect data and compare if he has what is needed, and better than what is there now.

[Danny0405]

It was pretty clear from the beginning that, except a Loeb miracle again, the series Croatia-Portugal-Sardinia would be difficult. Probably even Safari but as it is a more special rallye, they may have some luck there as Katsuta last year.
Breen is not good on tarmac (Belgium is really special context) and has not driven in slow gravel at world level for a while. And as Evans and Tanak had a bad start of season, he had a bad road position again. And Breen is not a championship-material driver for me, the hype he benefits this winter was completely insane; it’s not a criticism of either M-Sport who took the most safe choice after the Big4 rejected their offer (Lappi and Mikkelsen were the other logical choices but more of a gamble) or the driver that obtained the best opportunity for him, it’s just an opinion.
Greensmith is Greensmith and his road positions were not that good.
Loubet needs to adapt the car. And Fourmaux needs to build back confidence which takes at least 3 rallies.
And Loeb is 48 yo: as God he is, he cannot compete as a regular dominant winner right now even if he is competitive on some rounds (the 2018-2020 stints show that).

Sardinia will be really complicated again I think, I don’t see better than a top 5; Sordo will be less rusty, Lappi will have a good road position and Evans and Tanak not that bad compared with Breen.
And as Loeb won’t drive that much after Safari (at most 2 rallies from what I understand), they need to try something. There are some talks about Huttunen in Finland but it’s not really different than Loubet or Fourmaux in terms of profile.
It would also allow to understand if the car is that good (remind that Loeb achieves to win with the Citroen in 2018 and he is too much of a special guy to make a clear evaluation); from that perspective, giving 2 or 3 drives to Mikkelsen would help (Suninen is too much linked with Hyundai I think to be free + last year context).

[AnttiL]

You can have daydreams about Tänak or Neuville at M-Sport but their quality can be awesome as well. From Portugal, remember Loeb’s technical retirement, Breen’s hybrid issue on one stage, Loubet’s wiper fault or the brake problems on Sunday…

[Eli]

Did M-Sport conduct any pre-event testing before Sardegna?

[Danny0405]

Did M-Sport conduct any pre-event testing before Sardegna?

From what I’ve seen from a Fourmaux interview in a French website, no (last question of the link)
https://www.rallye-sport.fr/a-fourmaux-je-sais-que-je-ne-suis-pas-a-ma-vitesse/
He says that, as M-Sport has fired half of its team since Covid, they were not able to conduct PET in Sardinia; they will base on what happened in Portugal + last year rally

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Gus Greensmith stated there was no PET for Sardinia but it's not a problem after learning a lot from the recent Rally Portugal.

[mknight]

Sounds totally like a team that does everything to win (Ford CEO words after visiting them recently).

[Danny0405]

I wouldn’t blame M-Sport because I think the situation is really not simple for them financially speaking.
They had to develop a new Rally1 which is probably more expensive (or at least same cost) than the former one with no real possibility to sell or even rent in a massive way.
In Rally2, they are absolutely nowhere in terms of performance and even Skoda’s logistics issues didn’t convince customers to buy the Fiesta; they are completely reduced to the British market since at least 1 year. And with reduced team, I don’t see them in the game again in the next 2 years.

In Rally4, it’s a little better but they clearly have a huge competition from Renault and Peugeot now who seem to sell more cars now (even if M-Sport is not awful at that).
I think that, without Rally3 where they are alone for now and which is working better than expected, it will would be really difficult for M-Sport financially.
And the forecasts are not really positive: with the costs increasing (oil, logistics issues, ...), we clearly see that a lot of customers are more cautious with their spendings.

Without manufacturer support, I’m not sure they can do way better than this. It’s why, on topics about Neuville and Tanak, I’m not sure than suffering a pay cut to go to M-Sport is a good plan (but it’s completely different topic).

[wyler]

I wouldn’t blame M-Sport because I think the situation is really not simple for them financially speaking.
They had to develop a new Rally1 which is probably more expensive (or at least same cost) than the former one with no real possibility to sell or even rent in a massive way.
In Rally2, they are absolutely nowhere in terms of performance and even Skoda’s logistics issues didn’t convince customers to buy the Fiesta; they are completely reduced to the British market since at least 1 year. And with reduced team, I don’t see them in the game again in the next 2 years.

In Rally4, it’s a little better but they clearly have a huge competition from Renault and Peugeot now who seem to sell more cars now (even if M-Sport is not awful at that).
I think that, without Rally3 where they are alone for now and which is working better than expected, it will would be really difficult for M-Sport financially.
And the forecasts are not really positive: with the costs increasing (oil, logistics issues, ...), we clearly see that a lot of customers are more cautious with their spendings.

Without manufacturer support, I’m not sure they can do way better than this. It’s why, on topics about Neuville and Tanak, I’m not sure than suffering a pay cut to go to M-Sport is a good plan (but it’s completely different topic).

generally true but i see some space for renting the puma, they already did a 5 car round and more are to come... it looks a bit better than with '17 spec fiesta

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sounds totally like a team that does everything to win (Ford CEO words after visiting them recently).

The turnaround was was very tight from Portugal to Sardinia, plus M-Sport have done plenty of gravel testing at their base and abroad (unlike Hyundai). Plus I dont see Toyota having a PET either.

[EstWRC]

Toyota did their earlier in the year

[Eli]

Toyota did their earlier in the year

Before Portugal if I remember correctly?

[rp]

Before Portugal if I remember correctly?

Yes, between March 22-25. Already before Croatia. Plenty of time to develop the car for gravel.

[er88]

When was the last time Breen drove in Sardinia, or did a technical gravel rally as slow as this?! 2017/18? How are Msport giving their lead driver a chance without a pre event test on the island.

It's not just for car set up, but to help Breen and his driving.

One minute you get this "Msport can't afford" rhetoric as an excuse for them skipping testing/their iffy driver lineup/lack of staff etc, and then Malcolm comes out with quotes about how F1 would always interest Msport and they've got the capacity to get involved.

[er88]

"Best result to date" which it was. Spain was later and without rain. Meeke on Corsica had half rally to go and was just starting to lose time.

Why do you always have to "adjust" the reality a bit?

Like saying Suninen beat Mikkelsen in Rally2? Like when? Here by leading with 15s before getting a puncture on friday stages that Mikkelsen never drove before?

Talk about stretching."Best result to date" would suggest that's the best current result on tarmac for C3, which ofcourse it isn't with Meeke and Loeb wins.

If you read what I wrote, I never once said Mikkelsen had been beaten by Suninen. I said at times he has been shown up in r5s by Suninen, Lappi, Ostberg in terms of pace. Which he has. And these aren't top drivers we are talking about.

I also said he got battered by Neuville and Ogier in the same machinery, again that's a fact.

However despite all that, I said Mikkelsen should still be in the Msport car over Greensmith and Fourmaux. He's a much better driver..., which I also think is a truth do you not?

So I'm not adjusting any reality.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen and the Team had plenty to learn from on Rally Portugal and all the driver's said they are happy with the car set-up for gravel.

They only need to cut out their mistakes and car reliability issues to be competitive in Sardinia.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/breen-wont-re-invent-the-wheel-to-get-wrc-2022-back-on-track/10314729/

[Danny0405]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-set-to-field-fifth-rally1-car-in-finland/
Well, no real surprise as the rumor was growing. The only point may be if it’s a 5th car: Loubet was supposed to do either Finland or Belgium depending on Huttunen’s entry in Finland. Mistake from dirtfish or may mean Loubet extends his program or Loeb would make Belgium (or maybe Greece instead of Loubet)?

Other information: Fourmaux will do Rallye Vosges in Tarmac French Championship (main championship in France) with a Fiesta Rally2 this weekend.
Not an easy one against Bonato, Ciamin, Giordano and Gilbert even if the Fiesta is okay on tarmac. Interesting to see.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Local sponsor for Greensmith on the Safari Rally...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FVy_YyuUUAUuQ4A?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Message from Malcolm: If you break it, you fix it...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sports-lesson-to-greensmith-and-fourmaux/

[mknight]

Message from Malcolm: If you break it, you fix it...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sports-lesson-to-greensmith-and-fourmaux/

Well when they write that Loeb went for helicopter safari. It's quite likely he paid for it himself and even possible he piloted the heli as well.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loeb did his best...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1540699974643613696

[Sulland]

Still mean MSport should give Mikkelsen a go on a gravel event. Would give them some good answers both on the car, and the drivers.
Feel the car has great pace, but the drivers are far off top level, apart from Loeb.

[mknight]

MSport business operation won't pay for Mikkelsen.

It might be that Ford leadership loses patience though and puts money for Tanak or Neuville who are now "cheap" and eager to change.

[focus206]

I'd love to see both Neuville and Tanak (I know, impossible) away from Hyundai as they deserve better. But I'm afraid that even if they'd join M-Sport, Kalle and Toyota are too far ahead anyway, it would only be a relatively slight improvement for them.

[WRC1]

I'd love to see both Neuville and Tanak (I know, impossible) away from Hyundai as they deserve better. But I'm afraid that even if they'd join M-Sport, Kalle and Toyota are too far ahead anyway, it would only be a relatively slight improvement for them.

compared to what they have now!!! Tanak and/or Neuville would be an ENOURMOS improvement compare to theire totally useless drivers they have now (apart from Loeb..)

[focus206]

compared to what they have now!!! Tanak and/or Neuville would be an ENOURMOS improvement compare to theire totally useless drivers they have now (apart from Loeb..)

No no, I mean: if Tanak and/or Neuville join M-Sport it would be a slight improvement for Tanak and/or Neuville compared to Hyundai. Because Toyota and Kalle are still on a different planet.
Agree that it would be an enormous improvement for M-Sport.

[Danny0405]

Yeah, issue is still the same for Tanak and Neuville; is the Puma better enough to justify a pay cut and can it be enough to play a championship?
All the more if we take into account that, in the best case scenario, they could only be there next year; and we know M-Sport has a lot of issue to be keep the pace of development.

For the moment, even if I made a joke on another topic about Loeb and other M-Sport, I’m not sure the M-Sport is that good. More reliable than the Hyundai for sure (but not clearly not at Toyota’s level when we take a look at the issues they had) and probably equal in terms of pure speed.
But without evolution, it will be hard to keep Toyota’s pace.
Even if I’m not a huge fan of their line-up drivers, I also think that their mistakes in some of their favorite events may sound they are over-driving to keep up with Toyota.

And on the other hand, if I was Latvala, I would never hire Tanak or Neuville in the current situation, all the more with Toyota already having the knowledge of the one-real manufacturer situation in WEC (and all the drawbacks). It’s better to have a controlled competition than no competition at all (else, the promoter could try some trick rules to tie the game) + it’s a risk for the relationship with Kalle who is the potential next big thing.

[MentalParadox]

Joining M-Sport would only make sense for Ott and Thierry THIS year. Next year might already be too late. Remember the previous cycle? M-Sport tends to nail regulation changes, but after 1-2 years the big budget teams inevitably overtake them. M-Sport was really good with Ogier in 2017-2018, but from 2019 onwards that pace was gone (Ogier timed his departure well). I'm afraid it's already over for M-Sport. The advantage they have in 2022 is smaller than many expected it would be, and they are already not the fastest car anymore - clearly Toyota is. What M-Sport need to be able to compete long-term beyond the first year of every cycle, is FULL support from Ford. Bring back Ford World Rally Team.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sadly Ford (Europe) is struggling big-time and is rumoured to be closing factories and even ending production of certain models (Fiesta and Focus). Sales of such traditional cars continues to fall drastically as sales are taken by SUVs and cheap Asian cars. The chances of M-Sport becoming a full factory-backed rally team are even less now than before.

[EstWRC]

damn i dont get this SUV popularity by humans, killing the other car models, sad

[Fast Eddie WRC]

damn i dont get this SUV popularity by humans, killing the other car models, sad

Strong marketing of these bigger cars (which make more profit), plus human nature that associates higher/larger.with stronger/safer is mainly to blame.

In Ford's UK case, the Puma now outsells the Fiesta 3 to 1 and the Kuga outsells the Focus.

https://www.motor1.com/news/593700/ford-focus-production-end-2025/

[bandit12]

damn i dont get this SUV popularity by humans...

Have you ever had one?

[EstWRC]

Have you ever had one?

No, but I have had quite a lot of experience driving them for years at my previous workplace

Also, two years ago when I started to look for a new car, I tried some of them at the markets here. Yes, the higher seating position is a good thing with a better view, that I really like but doesn’t get my buying one instantly

But more room? Most of them, especially the smaller ones like Kuga and Puma for example, don’t have more room than Mondeo, Passat and Superb for example, especially the boot.

But anyway, that’s just me. Im not the target audience or I’m just not that old yet.

Sorry for getting off topic. Don’t like to do that. My last post regarding this

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-it-would-take-for-m-sport-to-alter-its-driver-lineup/

Picks:
“We signed Craig for a reason, for consistency and results over the course of a season."

"I would only really change the lineup if we had someone who we think can win the championship."

“The other two teams are… anybody driving for the other two teams would have to make a serious commitment to come to us because we’re in a very different position to them."


---
So in shorts:.
They didn't sign Breen to fight for championship but for consistency and results. (which are not happening atm).

But...they will only change if they can get someone who can fight for championship.

Isn't that a contradiction since he admits Breen is not delivering what he was signed for?

(For the record I don't think the main problem is Breen himself. I think the problem is that Breen is the lone driver expected to bring results, if they had at least two Breen would improve as well).

The other funny part is saying that all the other drivers are "performing"......by best stage or split times (likely meaning Fourmaux). So now splittimes are the goal....

The last part is basically saying they are a B-team. Which is clear to everyone, but interested to now see them openly admitting it.

[wyler]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-it-would-take-for-m-sport-to-alter-its-driver-lineup/

Picks:
“We signed Craig for a reason, for consistency and results over the course of a season."

"I would only really change the lineup if we had someone who we think can win the championship."

“The other two teams are… anybody driving for the other two teams would have to make a serious commitment to come to us because we’re in a very different position to them."


---
So in shorts:.
They didn't sign Breen to fight for championship but for consistency and results. (which are not happening atm).

But...they will only change if they can get someone who can fight for championship.

Isn't that a contradiction since he admits Breen is not delivering what he was signed for?

(For the record I don't think the main problem is Breen himself. I think the problem is that Breen is the lone driver expected to bring results, if they had at least two Breen would improve as well).

The other funny part is saying that all the other drivers are "performing"......by best stage or split times (likely meaning Fourmaux). So now splittimes are the goal....

The last part is basically saying they are a B-team. Which is clear to everyone, but interested to now see them openly admitting it.

I don't see any contradiction. Everybody knows that breen is not a championship contender, so of course, they want him deliver podiums and points to be in the mix with the manufacturer team. that's the aim foe m-sport.

of course they will not change breen for another breen-like driver. top tier drivers are unlikely to downgrade to m-sport, so why change? there's no assurance unemployed drivers will do better (and established drivers like lappi and suninen didn't shine with them either at their time...)

on developing drivers, i think it is normal that the references are scratchs and splits. they have to invest in people that show raw potential to be among the fastest, and splits are a good way to check. they have no experience to match the top drivers on a whole rally, but they're looking for raw signals while developing drivers. is the same as they always did. hard to say they didn't have results. besides championship material like tanak and evans, even a "failure" as camilli still has a consistent career in lower tiers. last, looking at raw splits and scratches m-sport youngsters are doing better than solberg and often competing with katsuta.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The interview confirms what I've been saying all along - it's all about money and they're without full (Ford) factory support versus two mighty automotive powerhouses.

“But at the same time, compare our driver bill to the others and I think we still do well with where we are with the resources we have.”

Millener doesn’t believe there are currently any drivers available on the market that could win M-Sport the championship.

“Not at the moment that we would have any ability to get hold of… anybody driving for the other two teams would have to make a serious commitment to come to us because we’re in a very different position to them. If you’re looking at the whole picture, why would anyone want to leave the other teams who have got very good visions for the future of where they’re going to be at [and] very good resource.”

[doubled1978]

It really is a shame as while he says they don’t want to give the impression they have no hope unless Seb turns up, that is actually the reality currently. He could easily have been top 3 in each event he has contested this year, and may well be right in the mix in Greece too.
It’s a pity Breen hasn’t delivered much this year so far, while he isn’t a top tier guy, he is better than what he has shown so far this season.
I am believer that Fourmaux will come good at some point, but he clearly is holding back trying not to bin it after the start of the season he had, but sadly is still having these small errors that knock him back. Greensmith is what he is, a pay driver doing ok but nothing more.
Like Millener says though, it will take a serious commitment from one of the elite guys to go to MSport at the moment, so really we are looking to Breen to be at his best for the remainder of the season and see if he can grab a few more podiums and maybe sneak a win when circumstances favour.

[seb_sh]

With how fragile the car was on the Safari I'm afraid that Loeb might be wasted in Greece. The initial plan with Catalunya seemed much more promising.

[mknight]

I don't see any contradiction. Everybody knows that breen is not a championship contender, so of course, they want him deliver podiums and points to be in the mix with the manufacturer team. that's the aim foe m-sport.

of course they will not change breen for another breen-like driver. top tier drivers are unlikely to downgrade to m-sport, so why change? there's no assurance unemployed drivers will do better (and established drivers like lappi and suninen didn't shine with them either at their time...)
.

He says Breen was hired for stable results and podiums and doesn't deliver that now.

At the same time he says they will only change for a championship contender.

That's the contradiction.

----
I don't think they should change Breen (for sure not mid-season). But they should get someone to accompany him at least for a few starts. Loeb should be easiest but even that is not happening (expanded program).
---

A few weeks ago Millener was interviewed saying they were "looking for ways to bring experienced drivers" so that Breen isn't alone. Now it's not on the table anymore.

Translated to plain english:
1. We want experienced drivers but someone else has to pay (sponsor or driver(s) themselves).
2. Nobody experienced wants to pay and we won't use own money.

----
Regarding looking at split times....sure when it's young driver in one of his first few rallies. But here it's drivers that have been 1 to 3 years in top tier car.

[wyler]

He says Breen was hired for stable results and podiums and doesn't deliver that now.

At the same time he says they will only change for a championship contender.

That's the contradiction.

----
I don't think they should change Breen (for sure not mid-season). But they should get someone to accompany him at least for a few starts. Loeb should be easiest but even that is not happening (expanded program).
---

A few weeks ago Millener was interviewed saying they were "looking for ways to bring experienced drivers" so that Breen isn't alone. Now it's not on the table anymore.

Translated to plain english:
1. We want experienced drivers but someone else has to pay (sponsor or driver(s) themselves).
2. Nobody experienced wants to pay and we won't use own money.

----
Regarding looking at split times....sure when it's young driver in one of his first few rallies. But here it's drivers that have been 1 to 3 years in top tier car.

man, you are just repeating the same things as before...:confused:
there's no one experienced to hire, money or not. hope this is not slipping again toward some infamous unemployed drivers...

[mknight]

man, you are just repeating the same things as before...:confused:
there's no one experienced to hire, money or not. hope this is not slipping again toward some infamous unemployed driver...

Man, the contradiction you missed to see was written to you in plain text. Instead of addressing it you go with "but but Mikkelsen", when I was arguing for expanded program for Loeb.
When out of arguments...

EDiT: Btw. The only unemployed experienced driver available atm is Meeke (though he is getting paid for Fabia tests). He would also be interesting to see for pure speed on a few rounds. Mikkelsen and Suninen have paid driver positions, Paddon afaik as well (Hyundai NZ). Guess that's part of the reason while none are at MSport. Sure they are likely not earnings millions, but better than paying at MSport.

[AnttiL]

Millener is saying what I've been saying for months. M-Sport won't hire someone like Mikkelsen to get "decent results", they will only put the money down to get a title, like with Ogier, and it succeeded.

But with that logic, why did they hire Breen? But then again we don't know the details of that contract.

And I remember many people expecting Breen to be there in the title fight before the season started. Even after Monte it was "clever tactics" to get a better road position for Sweden by not going fast on the power stage. I remember also Miika Wuorela on twitter expecting a similar first-full-season-championship like Grönholm in 2000. And you can also check the Crystal Ball thread here. Everyone was expecting him to step up after the podiums in the Hyundai, and I don't know either why it isn't happening.

[mknight]

But with that logic, why did they hire Breen? But then again we don't know the details of that contract.


They had to have at least one experienced driver as a "safe bet" to bring results. (That attract sponsors and most notably other paydrivers like Loubet).

Breen looked like the safest bet "on the way up". You could say they can use Loeb alone for that, but before this year Loeb was not safest bet at all (two third.places as best in Hyundai over 2 years).

Might say Loeb is the reason they don't need anyone else on "Breen level" even when Breen doesn't deliver. Undeniably Breen now does worse than in Hyundai, not even same level, but I don't blame him. Rather blame MSport for him been alone with no testing.

[seb_sh]

Millener is saying what I've been saying for months. M-Sport won't hire someone like Mikkelsen to get "decent results", they will only put the money down to get a title, like with Ogier, and it succeeded.

But with that logic, why did they hire Breen? But then again we don't know the details of that contract.

And I remember many people expecting Breen to be there in the title fight before the season started. Even after Monte it was "clever tactics" to get a better road position for Sweden by not going fast on the power stage. I remember also Miika Wuorela on twitter expecting a similar first-full-season-championship like Grönholm in 2000. And you can also check the Crystal Ball thread here. Everyone was expecting him to step up after the podiums in the Hyundai, and I don't know either why it isn't happening.

It's like he's a different driver to what he was in the Hyundai and even Citroen.

[AnttiL]

It's like he's a different driver to what he was in the Hyundai and even Citroen.

To me it's actually quite similar now to the Citroen days

[seb_sh]

To me it's actually quite similar now to the Citroen days

I thought he was more consistent but had a quick look at his results and you're right. In 2017 he was always 5th or had some issue and after that it looks a lot like this year.
In fact it looks like the series of tree podiums at the end of last year was the anomaly.

[mknight]

In fact it looks like the series of tree podiums at the end of last year was the anomaly.

If the timeline listed during the interviews with MSport last year is correct all these podiums happened after he signed for MSport.

(They said that negotiations started during Sardinia and contract was signed before Estonia)

Can be an indicator he performs best when not under pressure.

[wyler]

Man, the contradiction you missed to see was written to you in plain text. Instead of addressing it you go with "but but Mikkelsen", when I was arguing for expanded program for Loeb.
When out of arguments...

EDiT: Btw. The only unemployed experienced driver available atm is Meeke (though he is getting paid for Fabia tests). He would also be interesting to see for pure speed on a few rounds. Mikkelsen and Suninen have paid driver positions, Paddon afaik as well (Hyundai NZ). Guess that's part of the reason while none are at MSport. Sure they are likely not earnings millions, but better than paying at MSport.

the funny thing is that is you alone that come up again with the mikkelsen broken record.

i said driverS (plural), referring totally to the same list you did after (i used "unemployed" referring to wrc1, of course), it took you an edit to get into the discussion, that speaks for itself...

on the main topic, i ll not repeat again for the 3rd time. it is totally ok for me if you believe it's a contradiction.
i hope you already know because speaking about "more Loeb" is pure nonsense. he's doing wrc to fill the gaps between his true employment, and greece is the best example to testify.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If the timeline listed during the interviews with MSport last year is correct all these podiums happened after he signed for MSport.

(They said that negotiations started during Sardinia and contract was signed before Estonia)

Can be an indicator he performs best when not under pressure.

He had (and now has) a two-year contact at Msport so why is this more pressure ?

The fact of driving a new car Rally1 (Puma) and doing many new rallies is more likely the cause...

[cali]

He had very good car developed for these rallies. Now he has to develop the car which is a lot more different task and difficult.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

the funny thing is that is you alone that come up again with the mikkelsen broken record.

Actually the article mentions Mikkelsen as well:


A driver like WRC2 champion and three-time WRC winner Andreas Mikkelsen would potentially be a way to guarantee more consistent results, so should M-Sport make a move to bring him in for some rallies?

“There’s a lot of comments about it, but we have commitments to the drivers we have in the team and I think Malcolm [Wilson, managing director]’s approach is the same as the way I see it, when you commit to somebody for the season it’s fair to give them the chance for the season,” Millener responded.

[wyler]

Actually the article mentions Mikkelsen as well:

mmm yes, but not related.
he wasn't talking about that, he was talking directly to me (because i said "unemployed drivers"):

"Instead of addressing it you go with "but but Mikkelsen", when I was arguing for expanded program for Loeb.
When out of arguments..."

a bit unpolite.
i'm sorry but i don't like when people put words in my mouth just to validate their points.

[speederbee]

Well I'm looking forward to seeing Loeb in Acropolis, though it sure would be nice to get him in the car for another asphalt rally.

From what I recall of Loeb's full time career, sure he was fast on gravel, but he was untouchable on tarmac. I think he won every single tarmac rally in the last like 5 or 6 years of his career? It was as if everyone else was only showing up to those to see who would get 2nd

[Eli]

Well I'm looking forward to seeing Loeb in Acropolis, though it sure would be nice to get him in the car for another asphalt rally.

From what I recall of Loeb's full time career, sure he was fast on gravel, but he was untouchable on tarmac. I think he won every single tarmac rally in the last like 5 or 6 years of his career? It was as if everyone else was only showing up to those to see who would get 2nd

Unfortunately I don't think we'll see Loeb on tarmac again and if we do it will only be in MC, as the number of tarmac events has (according to rumours) been reduced to 3 for 2023. I also recall he had one every tarmac event from 2006's Germany until 2011 in Germany where Ogier beat him.

[mknight]

man, you are just repeating the same things as before...:confused:
there's no one experienced to hire, money or not. hope this is not slipping again toward some infamous unemployed driver...

https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?28825-M-Sport-Ford-World-Rally-Teams&p=1306856&viewfull=1#post1306856


the funny thing is that is you alone that come up again with the mikkelsen broken record.

i said driverS (plural), referring totally to the same list you did after (i used "unemployed" referring to wrc1, of course), it took you an edit to get into the discussion, that speaks for itself...

on the main topic, i ll not repeat again for the 3rd time. it is totally ok for me if you believe it's a contradiction.
i hope you already know because speaking about "more Loeb" is pure nonsense. he's doing wrc to fill the gaps between his true employment, and greece is the best example to testify.


mmm yes, but not related.
he wasn't talking about that, he was talking directly to me (because i said "unemployed drivers"):

"Instead of addressing it you go with "but but Mikkelsen", when I was arguing for expanded program for Loeb.
When out of arguments..."

a bit unpolite.
i'm sorry but i don't like when people put words in my mouth just to validate their points.

Amazing, Freudian slip(s) in practice. This whole exchange should be used in psycho classes.

1. Here are your own words and then you twice deny them (feel free to check the order of how things were posted). Yep I alone came with your post.

2. "It took you an edit to get into a discussion". Says all about you approach to talking about topics on a public internet forum.

[mknight]

He had (and now has) a two-year contact at Msport so why is this more pressure ?

The fact of driving a new car Rally1 (Puma) and doing many new rallies is more likely the cause...

Millener said it himself before Finland. The pressure is that if Breen doesn't get a good results on a rally nobody else from that team does (unless Loeb is there).

Also note that this year Breen does "worst" (in terms of crashes anyway) at the rallies that are not new and where he is expected to perform (Sweden, Estonia, Finland). Ypres is next and last in that line, so hopefully it breaks the spell.

[wyler]

https://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?28825-M-Sport-Ford-World-Rally-Teams&p=1306856&viewfull=1#post1306856





Amazing, Freudian slip(s) in practice. This whole exchange should be used in psycho classes.

1. Here are your own words and then you twice deny them (feel free to check the order of how things were posted). Yep I alone came with your post.

2. "It took you an edit to get into a discussion". Says all about you approach to talking about topics on a public internet forum.

1. man, isn't that too much?? i agree i did a typo missing an s, but it's pretty clear that's written about driver(s) in general. if i want to say mikkelsen (as you later insinuated) i do write mikkelsen, why should i hide the names?? that's a bit paranoid... guess every other people here got it quite right.
I get you are edgy on that topic, but using other people's words (or mistakes, in that case) to steer the conversation there is a bit meh.

2. It says much more on the same issue about you, honestly. You were probably wrong footed there on this Mikkelsen insinuation, and should not be that much of a problem if you just leave it, and not attack people because of a typo...
let's stop this before it becomes a farce about parapraxis.

[Danny0405]

Well I'm looking forward to seeing Loeb in Acropolis, though it sure would be nice to get him in the car for another asphalt rally.

From what I recall of Loeb's full time career, sure he was fast on gravel, but he was untouchable on tarmac. I think he won every single tarmac rally in the last like 5 or 6 years of his career? It was as if everyone else was only showing up to those to see who would get 2nd

Well, he was naturally better on tarmac as he was more used to (remember his 1st outing in San Remo in 2001 against Tarmac Master Panizzi + Monte Carlo and Germany in 2002) but he was not untouchable on it in the second half of his prime, with no team order, I think Sordo or Ogier could have beaten him «*loyally*» in two or three tarmac rallies in the 2009-2011 period.
But anyway, with Prodrive having the priority and Rally-Raids being postponed, New Zealand and Catalunya were not possible so Acropolis was almost the only possibility (even if Ypres would have sound interesting IMO but the knowledge sounds important there). Maybe he could do Japan in addition but could be only late decision as M-Sport will only bring 3 cars in the Pacific.

[mknight]

1. man, isn't that too much?? i agree i did a typo missing an s, but it's pretty clear that's written about driver(s) in general. if i want to say mikkelsen (as you later insinuated) i do write mikkelsen, why should i hide the names?? that's a bit paranoid... guess every other people here got it quite right.
I get you are edgy on that topic, but using other people's words (or mistakes, in that case) to steer the conversation there is a bit meh.

Sure, write two post with excuses what you "wrote" without actually reading what you wrote yourself. Then it was all a typo.

This started with you trying to derail discussion about Dirtfish MSport article with snarky reference which was clear to everyone to be on Mikkelsen. I called you out on that and then you try to deny it so hard you start contradiction yourself.
In the end you go for "poor baby" patronizing.


---------

So let's go back to the start and hear your comment on the topic

Milliner says Breen is not bringing the results he was hired for but (at the end of the year) they will only consider changing the lineup if they can get a clear title contender (which none are available).

To me there is a contradiction in his words:
They are not happy with Breen yet he basically says they won't do anything about it.

Note that Milliner himself said two weeks ago that they were "looking for ways to get another experienced driver" to support Breen. (clear title contender wouldn't really support Breen, rather take over his job).

The more honest way to sum up the last two MSport stories is that MSport were looking for someone to support Breen without using own money and failed.

Could be that drivers which could do that (Loeb, Mikkelsen, Suninen, Meeke, Østberg) don't see why they should use/bring own money to help MSport instead of actually getting paid elsewhere (Loeb at Prodrive, Mikkelsen and Meeke at Skoda and Suninen at Hyundai).

It could also be said that as long as Loeb drops by every few rallies and shows the speed of the Puma, they don't really need good results from Breen that much.

As Antti points out, this situation is a far cry from pre-season predictions and hopes from both people here and a lot of rally jurnos. For fun I checked the 2022 Crystal ball thread. Almost half of the predictions have a Breen rally win and some 1/3 have him WDC and/or MSport manu champ.

[mknight]

Actually the article pre-Finland about MSport looking for an experienced driver to support Breen was on WRC and not Dirtfish:

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-ford-considering-options-for-additional-driver/

Note the last paragraph:

“We can’t give up - if you do that and just live with what you have, you’re never going to make it work. It's just an ongoing thought in my head that we need to find a way to try and do it. It’s not easy, but I won’t give up.”

[wyler]

Sure, write two post with excuses what you "wrote" without actually reading what you wrote yourself. Then it was all a typo.

This started with you trying to derail discussion about Dirtfish MSport article with snarky reference which was clear to everyone to be on Mikkelsen. I called you out on that and then you try to deny it so hard you start contradiction yourself.
In the end you go for "poor baby" patronizing.


---------

So let's go back to the start and hear your comment on the topic

Milliner says Breen is not bringing the results he was hired for but (at the end of the year) they will only consider changing the lineup if they can get a clear title contender (which none are available).

To me there is a contradiction in his words:
They are not happy with Breen yet he basically says they won't do anything about it.

Note that Milliner himself said two weeks ago that they were "looking for ways to get another experienced driver" to support Breen. (clear title contender wouldn't really support Breen, rather take over his job).

The more honest way to sum up the last two MSport stories is that MSport were looking for someone to support Breen without using own money and failed.

Could be that drivers which could do that (Loeb, Mikkelsen, Suninen, Meeke, Østberg) don't see why they should use/bring own money to help MSport instead of actually getting paid elsewhere (Loeb at Prodrive, Mikkelsen and Meeke at Skoda and Suninen at Hyundai).

It could also be said that as long as Loeb drops by every few rallies and shows the speed of the Puma, they don't really need good results from Breen that much.

As Antti points out, this situation is a far cry from pre-season predictions and hopes from both people here and a lot of rally jurnos. For fun I checked the 2022 Crystal ball thread. Almost half of the predictions have a Breen rally win and some 1/3 have him WDC and/or MSport manu champ.

i was thinking you were just an over-entusiastic fan and not bothered that much, but now i think you are really a bit paranoid on this mikkelsen topic,and it is a bit discomforting to me, to have conversations so misread, childish, and hateful. :eek::eek::eek:
anyway, i don't care that much so i'm happy with everything you choose to believe on me, whatever!
(and i suppose the few people hitting likes under my posts don't agree with you either...)

on topic:
it's definitely what you wrote, it basically explains why is not a contradiction. they maybe want to change, but there's no possibility, and saying so isn't that much of a contradiction to me, just stating a fact. as you said, even if they would change for a better driver than breen, there's no one available (not in abstract of course, but for their context!), and there will not at the season end as well, most probably. so they just state it: we are not super happy, but we (have to) stay like this. but it is still ok if you feel it controversial, let's get out from that loop, there's a race incoming, with mikkelsen too :D

[wyler]

yes, of course. is not that he can go on to media and say "we are just helpless". he need to keep up with the pr stuff for the actual sponsor, and he is also shaking a tree to see if he can get some fruit. i totally agree is shaking a dead tree...

[mknight]

i was thinking you were just an over-entusiastic fan and not bothered that much, but now i think you are really a bit paranoid on this mikkelsen topic,and it is a bit discomforting to me, to have conversations so misread, childish, and hateful. :eek::eek::eek:
anyway, i don't care that much so i'm happy with everything you choose to believe on me, whatever!
(and i suppose the few people hitting likes under my posts don't agree with you either...)

Yes I am paranoid. Cause it's totally normal to write "certain" when you want to write "drivers". (Who should those multiple certain drivers that are clear to everyone be?)

Now keep doing that "poor baby", why adding a snark for no reason to every sentence where it is even remotedly possible and talk about counting likes (omg is this first grade highschool?)
:eek:

If it's so discomforting for you there is a solution you know. I am laughing my bodyparts off.

[wyler]

Yes I am paranoid. Cause it's totally normal to write "certain" when you want to write "drivers". (Who should those multiple certain drivers that are clear to everyone be?)

Now keep doing that "poor baby", why adding a snark for no reason to every sentence where it is even remotedly possible and talk about counting likes (omg is this first grade highschool?)
:eek:

If it's so discomforting for you there is a solution you know. I am laughing my bodyparts off.

look, i'm trying to be polite and reasonable, assuming you're a grown man...
"certain" is used for plural too, and i wanted precisely say "certain drivers", they're not contraries.:confused:
when talking about possible rally1 drivers there are -maybe few- but a list of names recurring, and you made the list yourself later on, so you get it right on second thought. again: why should i hide a name? i would definitely say "they ll not hire mikkelsen" if i wanted but was not my intention and you should really consider you get it wrong. counting like should ring you a bell when you assume that everybody share your vision, and it's not. you should consider it too. sometimes mistake happens, as my typo and your over reaction. get along. it's fine.

but you can keep your idea, no problem, i've already said that, just stop this nonsense, and be polite. i ll not reply more on that argument, i think it's clearly stated, and you can use your "solution" firsthand instead of telling others what to do and what they think, that ll be as mature as you pretend to be.

[bandit12]

Oh ffs. Get a room.

[AndersX]

I was just thinking that these dramas with crashing drivers, angry Malcolm and Co etc; it looks like a neverending loop. Go back McRea , then Latvala ( if I am correct, even benched once), Duval, Tanak ( more than once dropped) then most recent Suninen, now Fourmaux and Breen. Somehow the same pattern again and again. Even Evans discovered him-self properly only in Toyota. Somehow feels that it is time Malcolm to look into the mirror and ask what has been wrong in the concept it self? Possibly, constant budget restrains put extra pressure on every step of development. Drivers are competitors, most of them are in WrC bcs they have been winning. They will push, that is their nature. But the car allows only to do it to the certain level, then - crash or break. Even more - to not being able to afford PET in Fin - what would you even could expect? Last year - no PET and to blame Sunninen for bad performance?! If M-Sport will keep blaming only their drivers, who will want to work with them in future? (If there is any sustainable future for this approach at all).

My point is - at their current economical position, unfortunately, M-Sport has jumped over their heads in the fight with proper manufacturers and , as we know, things tend to go bad directly proportional to the importance of the matter. They can blame Breen and Co, but there are bigger matters that lead to high repairing costs and poor results in the end of the day.

[mknight]

Rumors on again about Tanak.

Loeb has now been leading or fighting for win on every rally he started this year (4). Loubet led the rally (with big road position advantage). Greensmith posted some decent times.

Surely it could be possible to use this PR to attract extra money for Tanak. "We have great car, we need top driver(s)".

...but 4 out of 5 cars had reliability issues again, with 3 retiring. (But 2 Toyotas also did)

So would Tanak want to switch? Before Greece I'd say no, now I'd still say no, but not as categorically.

[EstWRC]

The car is fast, no doubt about that. But yeah, too much reliability problems lately

Anyway, such a stuff already around Twitter
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220912/36d43eae262d0d858be4c28b6c09e538.jpg


Suits him well :D

[mknight]

MSport might go for something like 2018 with one top driver and two very cheap/paydrivers.

But it all might be a way to put more pressure on Hyundai.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I dont see Tanak leaving Hyundai to come back to M-Sport, even if MW was to pay out of his own money like with Ogier.

He may not be happy about the team-orders in Greece, but at least the i20 is now improved in speed and reliability.

Ogier left for Citroen bcs M-Sport couldnt afford to develop the Fiesta and the same will probably happen now with the Puma.

I only see Tanak moving to M-Sport if Ford come back too.

[rp]

It´s stupid by Ford of Europe if they are not able to pay Tänak´s salary, because Ford has already put a lot of money to develop the Puma. M-Sport can always say that they have no money for Tänak, but without him there will be only Loeb who can win some events next year. Of course it might be that this is enough for Ford, but clearly much more would be possible.

[manthey]

It´s stupid by Ford of Europe if they are not able to pay Tänak´s salary, because Ford has already put a lot of money to develop the Puma. M-Sport can always say that they have no money for Tänak, but without him there will be only Loeb who can win some events next year. Of course it might be that this is enough for Ford, but clearly much more would be possible.How much is the actual Tanak's salary?
I guess less than Neuville

Inviato dal mio ELE-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

[becher]

How much is the actual Tanak's salary?
I guess less than Neuville

Inviato dal mio ELE-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

What brings you to that conclusion?

[WRC1]

my Dream Line up for 2023

Ford M-Sport
- Tanak
- Mikkelsen
- Loubet
- Greensmith

Toyota Gazoo
- Rovanpära
- Lappi
- Evans
- Katsuta
- Ogier (4-5 Rallyes)

Neuville World Rally Team (ex Hyundai)
- Neuville
- Neuville´s Brother
- Sordo
- Solberg (as long as Papa pays)

[manthey]

What brings you to that conclusion?Because i read on the web 2 mln thierry 1,5 tanak (unsure about referring 2021 season)

[TypeR]

Because i read on the web 2 mln thierry 1,5 tanak (unsure about referring 2021 season)

Triple these numbers

[manthey]

Triple these numbersReally? We are in F1 mid-top drivers salary camp

Inviato dal mio ELE-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

[mknight]

Two MSport drivers led the rally and won stages in Greece.

None of them is going to NZ. Instead they have a driver that crashed every second rally this year and is currently 18th in WRC with 9 points, behind 4 Rally2 cars that started half as many rallies.

[EstWRC]

thats because Loubet and Loeb choose where they participate, typical that they dont do oversea rallies

[bandit12]

If Tänak wants to switch teams, his salary is last thing that should stop him.
Underdeveloped car will be bigger issue.

[bwallace]

By how hyundai put team order it's more than obvious that he have a new contract with team, mostly it should be m-sport by the main news what milner was putted on breen telling them show the result is signal that they ready to fire him.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen has a 2-year contract and they couldnt afford to pay him off and also pay to hire someone else.

Re Tanak, he has to say he's not happy with the team orders, but I'm sure he understands the teams reasons. Plus Neuville's morale also had to be considered after going so long without a win...

[AnttiL]

thats because Loubet and Loeb choose where they participate, typical that they dont do oversea rallies

Yes. You could say about every rally "Loeb would be better in here" but he won't do more than this.

[ouvreur]

Breen has a 2-year contract and they couldnt afford to pay him off and also pay to hire someone else.

Re Tanak, he has to say he's not happy with the team orders, but I'm sure he understands the teams reasons. Plus Neuville's morale also had to be considered after going so long without a win...

I would expect every driver, just like every professional team sportsperson, has a clause in their contract whereby it can be reviewed or terminated in the event of severe underperformance...

[mknight]

thats because Loubet and Loeb choose where they participate, typical that they dont do oversea rallies

In the end yes, but you are skipping a few levels here:

1. Breen, Greensmith and Fourmaux are MSport "official drivers" announced for full season already before the start. So they go "automatically", unless MSport chooses not to send them.

2. Loubet is said to be paying for everything (with FFSA) and does not have funding for full season. Overseas is likely more expensive than Europe. I am pretty sure he would not refuse to go to NZ if offered a free opportunity.

[WRC1]

In the end yes, but you are skipping a few levels here:

1. Breen, Greensmith and Fourmaux are MSport "official drivers" announced for full season already before the start. So they go "automatically", unless MSport chooses not to send them.

2. Loubet is said to be paying for everything (with FFSA) and does not have funding for full season. Overseas is likely more expensive than Europe. I am pretty sure he would not refuse to go to NZ if offered a free opportunity.

if i where teamboss at M-Sport i would leave Formaux and Breen at home and send just Loubet and Greensmith to NewZealand

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-puma-still-capable-of-taking-wrc-wins-this-season/

Loeb said it before that the Puma suits his driving style. Hyundai didn't. C3 did on tarmac in 2018, before the big changes.

Could it be the opposite case with Breen? Breen was struggling with C3, especially when it was best on tarmac 2017-2018 (note for example 3 spins and bad times in Spain 2018 while Loeb won the race). Did comparably better with i20 and now it's back to struggling. Crashing is one thing, but the times are worse than in i20 especially compared with Loeb.

[AnttiL]

Well thought, but then again Breen and Loeb never did the same events in i20. The only shared event in C3 was Catalunya 2018.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Breen has continually praised the Puma so any under-performance doesn't seem to be the car, but rather the driver.

It's funny that the pressure of leading a team in 2022 has told on him more than the pressure to win a full-time drive in 2021.

[manthey]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-puma-still-capable-of-taking-wrc-wins-this-season/

Loeb said it before that the Puma suits his driving style. Hyundai didn't. C3 did on tarmac in 2018, before the big changes.

Could it be the opposite case with Breen? Breen was struggling with C3, especially when it was best on tarmac 2017-2018 (note for example 3 spins and bad times in Spain 2018 while Loeb won the race). Did comparably better with i20 and now it's back to struggling. Crashing is one thing, but the times are worse than in i20 especially compared with Loeb.I remember that Loeb didn't change anything (neither a click on suspension) when he won Montecarlo on Puma

Inviato dal mio ELE-L29 utilizzando Tapatalk

[dimviii]

Loeb have said many times that fiesta is a very easy driving car.
Confirmed to me too,when he had a small talk at Acropolis.

[macebig]

Makes no sense to put it on the Puma. Breen has pretty much led the development from September 2021 onwards. So, even if there were any incompatibility between the car and his style, it should have been ironed out long ago. Besides, Loeb says that everyone uses the same base set-up and then him and Loubet do some fine tuning, while the others go their own way.

[AnttiL]

Loeb have said many times that fiesta is a very easy driving car.
Confirmed to me too,when he had a small talk at Acropolis.

Fiesta or Puma?

[Eli]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loubet-wants-at-least-10-wrc-rounds-in-2023/

On the subject, well partially anyhow.

[mknight]

It's funny that the pressure of leading a team in 2022 has told on him more than the pressure to win a full-time drive in 2021.

It's quite different though.

In Hyundai the "pressure" was only one he put himself. He wanted to drive more rounds, Hyundai was quite satisfied with him since mid 2020 onwards. Often he could also "hide" behind others under pressure, for example Tanak in Estonia 2021.

In MSport (without Loeb) he is the only one expected to deliver a result.

[EstWRC]

Horrible season

The car is good, drivers…..

[Danny0405]

Horrible season

The car is good, drivers…..

And even the car is not that good; at this stage of the season and for sometime (At least 4 rallies) now, the Hyundai reliability is better than the M-Sport.

[WRCStan]

And even the car is not that good; at this stage of the season and for sometime (At least 4 rallies) now, the Hyundai reliability is better than the M-Sport.

New car for Tanak in Belgium, he won. New car for Neuville in Greece, he won. Sordo and Solberg jumped in Tanak's old one.

As for the Puma's, I wouldn't say they are that great. Letting down Loeb, Serderidis, Huttunen.

[Sulland]

2023
Tanak number 1
Breen number 2
Greensmith number 3
Solberg number 4

The two french boys out.

Maybe Breen will have to go as well. He has not been fighting for podiums very often.
They need a number 2 that is almost at same level as Tanak, so if he goes out, Ford could still end up at the podium.

[manthey]

2023
Tanak number 1
Breen number 2
Greensmith number 3
Solberg number 4


They need a number 2 that is almost at same level as Tanak, so if he goes out, Ford could still end up at the podium.

So they need also Evans

[Managarium]

Maybe Malcolm can put two M-Sport teams :p
One team that is payed by him, and second team for those who are paying their seats.

[AnttiL]

Maybe Malcolm can put two M-Sport teams :p
One team that is payed by him, and second team for those who are paying their seats.

And third for best motorsportforum members!

[Eli]

2023
Tanak number 1
Breen number 2
Greensmith number 3
Solberg number 4

The two french boys out.

Maybe Breen will have to go as well. He has not been fighting for podiums very often.
They need a number 2 that is almost at same level as Tänak, so if he goes out, Ford could still end up at the podium.

Apart from Rovanperä & Ogier who are on the same level as Tänak (or above since they do have the superior car & no offense to anyone else), I don't see anyone almost the same level he is; Before anyone says Neuville, well even he didn't match his own level this year from years past, yes he won in Greece but Tanak won 3 times this season including Golden boy's home soil on Tarmac. Evans might be a good number two but as we've seen this season, he hasn't been his dashing best. Besides, putting him back in M-Sport again, I don't think that would do him any good.

[Andre Oliveira]

With the end of production of Fiesta, what model to Rally2, Rally3, Rally4 and Rally5… maybe Rally-e in future?

[cali]

Apart from Rovanperä & Ogier who are on the same level as Tänak (or above since they do have the superior car & no offense to anyone else), I don't see anyone almost the same level he is; Before anyone says Neuville, well even he didn't match his own level this year from years past, yes he won in Greece but Tanak won 3 times this season including Golden boy's home soil on Tarmac. Evans might be a good number two but as we've seen this season, he hasn't been his dashing best. Besides, putting him back in M-Sport again, I don't think that would do him any good.We have to be honest that in Ypres by speed alone Tänak didn't perform at the same level as Neuville. Without that off Tänak would have been 2nd. Ofc to win it you have to keep it on the road and Tänak was very close to Neuville, surprisingly close actually. But overall when Hyundai got sorted their reliability issues (and even before that) Ott was the better performer.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[ssuvik]

We have to be honest that in Ypres by speed alone Tänak didn't perform at the same level as Neuville. Without that off Tänak would have been 2nd. Ofc to win it you have to keep it on the road and Tänak was very close to Neuville, surprisingly close actually. But overall when Hyundai got sorted their reliability issues (and even before that) Ott was the better performer.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

In Ypres also Evans drove faster than Tänak. Evans got 10 sec panalty that kept him behind Ott.

[Sal yet again]

With the end of production of Fiesta, what model to Rally2, Rally3, Rally4 and Rally5… maybe Rally-e in future?

Think as it stands this looks to be a sizeable threat to M Sport's allegiance to Ford as the SUV like body styles that should be available dont seem to me to be ideal bases for rally cars. The Rally 1 is fine as that is spaceframe. Interesting times ahead regardless of Ford Europe's statement that they will be all electric by 2030.

[Humber]

Just depends what rules the FIA lets the manufacturers use. Ford are planning on a small EV that could use the VW floor plan. Ford/ M-Sport might be allowed to throw the fiesta engine into that for entry level rally use, but progressing with the latest car show room shape.
or
The current Puma's wheelbase is 2588mm which is 52mm shorter than the Toyota C-HR 2640mm which in vid was turned into a basic AP4 rally SUV.
I would think the professional European teams will figure out how to make successful next gen entry level rally cars when the time comes.

Japanese AP4 suv there are also Thai , Indonesian SUV AP4s.
https://youtu.be/Uh9ThORSEro

[WRCStan]

With the end of production of Fiesta, what model to Rally2, Rally3, Rally4 and Rally5… maybe Rally-e in future?

Mustang

[cali]

MustangF150

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[focus206]

F150

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Transit
https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/car/2038/Ford-World-Rally-Transit-14777.jpg

[seb_sh]

Transit
https://www.ultimatecarpage.com/images/car/2038/Ford-World-Rally-Transit-14777.jpg

new rules in 2024: the cars need to carry all spares and tools on board

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ironically the new e-Puma road car will be built using the platform of the e-Transit van !

Re the Rally2, it's been stated by an ex-Ford boss that the Puma ST is likely to be used...

[kirungi okwogera]

new rules in 2024: the cars need to carry all spares and tools on board

and crew!

[fiscorpun]

Adrian Formaux was testing the Msport Dakar car! Tho they are not sure they will race in '23
https://dirtfish.com/off-road/dakar/m-sport-continues-ranger-running/

[Sal yet again]

No Fourmaux in Japan now. They are talking a 23 WRC programme in the press release but a lot can happen between then and now!

[macebig]

Fourmaux is done for Rally 1 at least. They may return him back to Rally 2 or assign him to Dakar and new Rally 2 car development.

[Managarium]

Fourmaux is done for Rally 1 at least. They may return him back to Rally 2 or assign him to Dakar and new Rally 2 car development.

I agree with you. I think that it would be better for the team to put Adrien in Rally2 .
He was good last year and he proved that he deserved Rally1 seat.
Also this year, he disappointed everyone.
But on the other side, there is Red Bull money.

[Negaiss]

Fourmaux is a future top driver. You do not win WRC stages in not the best car if you have not talent and bravery. This year I believe he just was not allowed to crash, but he did anyway. If he had money, he would battle for championship with Rovanpera from 2024. But he has not.

[AnttiL]

Fourmaux is a future top driver. You do not win WRC stages in not the best car if you have not talent and bravery. This year I believe he just was not allowed to crash, but he did anyway. If he had money, he would battle for championship with Rovanpera from 2024. But he has not.

Well money he has, but not for this year anymore. Hopefully a new budget next year and less crashes. Going back to WRC2 wouldn't do bad for him either, to learn to win events first.

[WRCStan]

Well money he has, but not for this year anymore. Hopefully a new budget next year and less crashes. Going back to WRC2 wouldn't do bad for him either, to learn to win events first.

I never asked you what worked so well for Tanak. He only won one WRC2 round and finished 6th overall, came back to WRC1 and did exactly the same as before. Why do Solberg and Fourmaux have to dominate (my word not yours)?

[AnttiL]

I never asked you what worked so well for Tanak. He only won one WRC2 round and finished 6th overall, came back to WRC1 and did exactly the same as before. Why do Solberg and Fourmaux have to dominate (my word not yours)?

Good question. But he also won PWRC in two rallies in 2010 and SWRC in three rallies in 2011 (and was second in the SWRC championship).

[PLuto]

Fourmaux is a future top driver. You do not win WRC stages in not the best car if you have not talent and bravery. This year I believe he just was not allowed to crash, but he did anyway. If he had money, he would battle for championship with Rovanpera from 2024. But he has not.

So, this year almost everybody with Rally1 car except Serderidis (and Solberg) has won stage in WRC. Including Loubet, Greensmith, Katsuta and even Josh McErlean with Rally2 car. And there were more curious stage winners in the last years. So winning stage in WRC is not proof that you are future top driver...

[lmmjvss]

I dont have the best memory, ok? But IN MY HEAD, Formaux did ONE 'ok' rally and everybody went "OHH HE IS SUCH A TALENTED DRIVER! GOTTA GET HIM!.... but then he only crashed. Now Loubet did ONE 'ok' rally and everybody is "OHH HE IS SUCH A TALENTED DRIVER! GOTTA GET HIM!! ...but he will not perform like we imagine.
Not saying they are "not talented" haha WHO AM I to say that, but they are just "regular drivers" that will not be a big name in WRC... at least I dont see it. WRC2 would be more interesting. Hope that doesnt sounded disrespectfull!

[Rallyest]

I dont have the best memory, ok? But IN MY HEAD, Formaux did ONE 'ok' rally and everybody went "OHH HE IS SUCH A TALENTED DRIVER! GOTTA GET HIM!.... but then he only crashed. Now Loubet did ONE 'ok' rally and everybody is "OHH HE IS SUCH A TALENTED DRIVER! GOTTA GET HIM!! ...but he will not perform like we imagine.
Not saying they are "not talented" haha WHO AM I to say that, but they are just "regular drivers" that will not be a big name in WRC... at least I dont see it. WRC2 would be more interesting. Hope that doesnt sounded disrespectfull!

I disagree with you completely on Loubet part, IMO he is the most talented one from all the m-sport boys, and maybe even solberg. The problem was before he was hit by a car he was stuck in a shit hyundai with old parts. And this year in a new car which probably isnt a top tier car he has shown real pace and even led a rally for a moment, and finished 4th in the end, and not by luck like solberg or formaux or greensmith usualy do when they finish high in the ranks. I really hope he can do full season or few rallies more than this year

[AnttiL]

So, this year almost everybody with Rally1 car except Serderidis (and Solberg) has won stage in WRC. Including Loubet, Greensmith, Katsuta and even Josh McErlean with Rally2 car. And there were more curious stage winners in the last years. So winning stage in WRC is not proof that you are future top driver...

Fourmaux has three WRC stage wins to his career

Safari 2021: using a shortcut
Estonia 2022: super special
Safari 2022: fastest drivers didn't complete the stage because the stage was red flagged when Solberg got stuck

I have to give credit to Greensmith for winning a stage in Monte, or a very long and difficult stage in New Zealand, but other than that he's been disappointingly slow this year (and also crashing now twice)

[meh]

I never asked you what worked so well for Tanak.

But this is one of the most important questions - the answer should say, how one can come a world champion.

My point of view (so to point out, it's just an opinion and if yours is different, I'm ok if you have different):

Baseline - he always had speed, but he didn't win too many rallies and titles because he also crashed and overdrive a lot.

Crashes and combination with hard to handle attitude he got kicked off. But straight forward "no BS" feedback also has positive side (at least from Mr. Wilson point of view).

Thank's to this baseline he got opportunities to come back more than one time.

This exception (many opportunities) is nowadays a base for hope for everyone who was kicked of - "but look, Tänak came back many times". But did they have the same raw speed as Tänak? And the same technical (mechanic) background - knowledge how cars (should) work?

Now the actual key question - what was changed, before finally come back and start winning rallies. For me, it's mindset. How to handle pressure, how to keep concentrated, what is important and what is not important. If I remember/understood correctly, he has/had separate person in the team for that role.

[denkimi]

2 years ago i saw fourmaux as a potential future top driver, but not anymore.
I don't see crashing often as a problem for a young driver, just look at meeke. But he hasn't shown the speed that would justify his crashes. He hasn't been at the front, yet still crashed everywhere.

Perhaps more time in wrc2 might save him, but i'm sceptical.

[Rallyest]

But this is one of the most important questions - the answer should say, how one can come a world champion.

My point of view (so to point out, it's just an opinion and if yours is different, I'm ok if you have different):

Baseline - he always had speed, but he didn't win too many rallies and titles because he also crashed and overdrive a lot.

Crashes and combination with hard to handle attitude he got kicked off. But straight forward "no BS" feedback also has positive side (at least from Mr. Wilson point of view).

Thank's to this baseline he got opportunities to come back more than one time.

This exception (many opportunities) is nowadays a base for hope for everyone who was kicked of - "but look, Tänak came back many times". But did they have the same raw speed as Tänak? And the same technical (mechanic) background - knowledge how cars (should) work?

Now the actual key question - what was changed, before finally come back and start winning rallies. For me, it's mindset. How to handle pressure, how to keep concentrated, what is important and what is not important. If I remember/understood correctly, he has/had separate person in the team for that role.

It was briefly mentioned in his movie also, but his mindset change came alot thanks to His wife Janika.

[AnttiL]

But this is one of the most important questions - the answer should say, how one can come a world champion.

My point of view (so to point out, it's just an opinion and if yours is different, I'm ok if you have different):

Baseline - he always had speed, but he didn't win too many rallies and titles because he also crashed and overdrive a lot.

Crashes and combination with hard to handle attitude he got kicked off. But straight forward "no BS" feedback also has positive side (at least from Mr. Wilson point of view).

Thank's to this baseline he got opportunities to come back more than one time.

This exception (many opportunities) is nowadays a base for hope for everyone who was kicked of - "but look, Tänak came back many times". But did they have the same raw speed as Tänak? And the same technical (mechanic) background - knowledge how cars (should) work?

Now the actual key question - what was changed, before finally come back and start winning rallies. For me, it's mindset. How to handle pressure, how to keep concentrated, what is important and what is not important. If I remember/understood correctly, he has/had separate person in the team for that role.

Actually Tänak didn't start winning right after he was kicked out and came back. It took years. He didn't become a win contender until 2017 mid-season. We remember things like Finland 2016 where he was blindingly fast but also crashed out. And even still in 2017, he crashed out leading in Portugal and Poland. Even the first win in Sardegna was a hanging by a thread, he had a small incident on the last day. In Germany he also almost went into the vines, but managed to come out. I have viewed that incident as a moment when he became the driver he is now, he hasn't made many mistakes since then. It's almost like as if he had fallen into the vines, he would have never become a world champion.

But you are correct that he had the top speed already in 2011 and 2012. That's something we haven't seen from guys like Solberg and Fourmaux.

And we can see from other drivers like Meeke or Mikkelsen that being kicked out and coming back doesn't automatically make you a champion.

[mknight]

The only driver with similar kind of history as Tanak is Evans, since he was "kicked" from WRC but kept in R5 and put back in WRC with MSport again (Tanak had a year without MSport but then went back to them again).
Evans is imo a rather successful story. (2 times almost champion is success in my book)


No other recent example is comparable, Lappi (2020) and Mikkelsen (2017) lost drives when their team left (that applies also to Lappi at MSport since he was there on Citroen money) then went to completely different teams. For both of them it also wasn't during "early development" period since both had 1 or more wins and multiple podiums by then.
Meeke got kicked by Mini after he already got the IRC title and then also went to completely different team.

[doubled1978]

Actually Tänak didn't start winning right after he was kicked out and came back. It took years. He didn't become a win contender until 2017 mid-season. We remember things like Finland 2016 where he was blindingly fast but also crashed out. And even still in 2017, he crashed out leading in Portugal and Poland. Even the first win in Sardegna was a hanging by a thread, he had a small incident on the last day. In Germany he also almost went into the vines, but managed to come out. I have viewed that incident as a moment when he became the driver he is now, he hasn't made many mistakes since then. It's almost like as if he had fallen into the vines, he would have never become a world champion.

But you are correct that he had the top speed already in 2011 and 2012. That's something we haven't seen from guys like Solberg and Fourmaux.

And we can see from other drivers like Meeke or Mikkelsen that being kicked out and coming back doesn't automatically make you a champion.

I agree on Tanak, on such small things careers can change. One thing I have noticed with him since that 2017 season when he made his breakthrough, is that his driving has become much less flamboyant generally (Finland this year might be an exception!) and he really doesn’t make many mistakes while still being very fast.

I’ve said it before, I think Fourmaux has got the ability, if he ever reaches the top will be down to him and perhaps a stroke of luck. Of course the mistakes have to stop, but if MSport stick with him, he has a chance. When I watch his onboards, he has a lovely style of driving and I could see in Spain, he was just cruising and taking no risks. The first day must have been his worst nightmare, benched for two rallies and comes back to wet tarmac with loads of dirty cuts. But on the other two days he was good, without pushing.
It’s easy to look at this season and say slow, crashes etc etc…but I have seen enough over the last 40+ years watching WRC to think he is a lot better than we have seen so far.
I’m sure others will disagree.

[er88]

I genuinely have a feeling Fourmaux has something. Maybe the evidence and facts suggest otherwise, but I think he can be a success (not sure whether that's champion level, rally winner level or perennial podium challenger). I think he's just had a season from hell, which started promising pace wise. He had a crash in Monte while showing some pace, but even the best crash in Monte. The fear of death was put in him after that crash and the pace and confidence has evaporated, while the accidents have increased.

Surely that reflects at least a bit of poor management from Msport? They picked these drivers knowing they weren't top tier and either inexperienced, or inexperienced at leading a team for a full season (Breen).

Maybe a season in rally2 might help Fourmaux develop and regain his confidence, slightly out of the limelight you get in rally1 (issue is the Fiesta R5 is a bit of a dog now). I certainly wouldn't give up on him though

[PLuto]

I genuinely have a feeling Fourmaux has something. Maybe the evidence and facts suggest otherwise, but I think he can be a success (not sure whether that's champion level, rally winner level or perennial podium challenger). I think he's just had a season from hell, which started promising pace wise. He had a crash in Monte while showing some pace, but even the best crash in Monte. The fear of death was put in him after that crash and the pace and confidence has evaporated, while the accidents have increased.

Surely that reflects at least a bit of poor management from Msport? They picked these drivers knowing they weren't top tier and either inexperienced, or inexperienced at leading a team for a full season (Breen).

Maybe a season in rally2 might help Fourmaux develop and regain his confidence, slightly out of the limelight you get in rally1 (issue is the Fiesta R5 is a bit of a dog now). I certainly wouldn't give up on him though

For me Formaux was talented driver, but made a lot of bad steps in his career which didnt helped in the final. Or better to say - some of his steps he did too early...

[jonkka]

Safari 2022: fastest drivers didn't complete the stage because the stage was red flagged when Solberg got stuck

And that can be only counted as a fastest stage time but not a stage win.

[Sergiow]

Maybe a season in rally2 might help Fourmaux develop and regain his confidence, slightly out of the limelight you get in rally1 (issue is the Fiesta R5 is a bit of a dog now). I certainly wouldn't give up on him though

Fourmaux currently testing in Dubai for M-Sport the Ford Ranger T1+ Dakar. Interesting future development both for Fourmaux and M-Sport

https://www.thecheckeredflag.co.uk/2022/11/m-sport-ranger-t1-skipping-dakar-2023-though-development-continues/

[mknight]

And on Breens 5th crash in 7 rallies we round of the worst season of any driver I remember, even beating Meeke 2019.
(technically 6th crash, but Spain was caused by puncture on corner before).

Greensmiths driveshaft combined with horrid stage time due to bad notes (again after how many years?) rounds it off for rest of the team.

Note that before season we had quite many people tipping Breen for WDC and MSport for manus. They even beat Citroens 2017 season, since Citroen had two wins and podium vs MSport 1+2.

[EstWRC]

What I found interesting that Millener was so cheered up during lunch time interview

But yeah. Horrible season which started off so well. All the effort what has been put into the car for nothing basically

Can’t see the next being better if they can’t get a decent driver

[mknight]

What I found interesting that Millener was so cheered up during lunch time interview



I am sure any real rally fan hopes it's due to Tanak coming.
But surely if that happens it won't be good for your nerves ;)

[skarderud]

If M-sport keeps up with this line up, its even worse next year.

Get in Tänak as nr1, Mikkelsen as nr2, Loeb/Loubet as nr3, and some 2.team for the rest.

Redbull can pay.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[flat_right]

I am sure any real rally fan hopes it's due to Tanak coming.
But surely if that happens it won't be good for your nerves ;)

Can't be worse than driving with Hyundai to be honest :D

[M5]

Norwegian glasses sees

Mikkelsen, Østberg, Greensmith
Østberg with coaching of Greensmith as one task.
Loeb/Solberg in car 4
Solberg development of current/new Rally2 cars as one task.

[seb_sh]

Norwegian glasses sees

Mikkelsen, Østberg, Greensmith
Østberg with coaching of Greensmith as one task.
Loeb/Solberg in car 4
Solberg development of current/new Rally2 cars as one task.

I doubt you will ever see Ostberg back with MSport...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The security of having a two-year contract doesnt seem to have helped Breen perform this year. And now he says he doesnt know if he'll be driving for them in 2023. Contracts seem to mean nothing nowadays.

I wonder if he knew all along the 2nd year wasn't guaranteed and that piled on the pressure as this year went on...

[becher]

The security of having a two-year contract doesnt seem to have helped Breen perform this year. And now he says he doesnt know if he'll be driving for them in 2023. Contracts seem to mean nothing nowadays.

I wonder if he knew all along the 2nd year wasn't guaranteed and that piled on the pressure as this year went on...

The second year might be fixed, but with an exit clause on either side. Judging by his performance M Sport might as well be in a position to trigger that exit clause.

[steve.mandzij]

The security of having a two-year contract doesnt seem to have helped Breen perform this year. And now he says he doesnt know if he'll be driving for them in 2023. Contracts seem to mean nothing nowadays.

I wonder if he knew all along the 2nd year wasn't guaranteed and that piled on the pressure as this year went on...I reckon his second year was a given until he failed to perform at all during this season. In January he was hailed as the right man to lead M-Sport into the new era, as a reliable points scorer, potential rally winner, and by some crazy people, a WDC contender. He was in the best possible position going into 2022, but I don't think anybody survives a season like he's had unscathed.

Regardless he's only the second worst of the M-Sport drivers: Fourmaux did even more poorly with lower expectations.

[Danny0405]

I reckon his second year was a given until he failed to perform at all during this season. In January he was hailed as the right man to lead M-Sport into the new era, as a reliable points scorer, potential rally winner, and by some crazy people, a WDC contender. He was in the best possible position going into 2022, but I don't think anybody survives a season like he's had unscathed.

Regardless he's only the second worst of the M-Sport drivers: Fourmaux did even more poorly with lower expectations.

Well, Greensmith also did a bad season; we could have expected more than him considering his 2021 season and he has been made a lot of big mistakes.

Only satisfying driver in M-Sport is Loeb with his win in Monte (+ two reliability-issues rally and his rookie mistake in Sardinia)

For me, if Hyundai wants Breen, they should let him go for free.
But they still need a driver with some experience in all rallies in my opinion: best plan would be Loeb and Mikkelsen sharing one car and then, in a second car, the one having the best funding between Solberg and Loubet + whatever they can in 3rd car (assuming Tanak will not come, else it’s a no-brainer for sure).

But it may more finish with something like Loeb-Solberg-Loubet-Greensmith (probably Loeb sharing his car with either Solberg or Loubet or both if they share 2 cars).

[AnttiL]

But it may more finish with something like Loeb-Solberg-Loubet-Greensmith (probably Loeb sharing his car with either Solberg or Loubet or both if they share 2 cars).

With M-Sport you don't need to think about "sharing" cars. They can have two cars in a rally or five cars in a rally. It doesn't really matter who they enter for manufacturer points because they cannot realistically compete for that.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Millener still talking about Breen in the future tense....

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/breen-must-be-more-single-minded-millener/

[flat_right]

M-Sport 1 hour ago. What's going on? :rolleyes:

https://www.upload.ee/image/14667652/Screenshot_7.png

[seb_sh]

M-Sport 1 hour ago. What's going on? :rolleyes:

Puma Rally2? Puma Rally1 slot car?

[Danny0405]

Probably announcing a Dakar car and maybe even registration in 2023 Dakar?

However, one big question mark for me if they made a Dakar car as evoked for some time: Prodrive accepts to lend Loeb to M-Sport (because he had an exclusivity contract with Prodrive) for making some WRC outings. Not sure at all David Richards would like to see M-Sport coming in Rally-Raid in these conditions.

[mknight]

Slotcar models?

[er88]

Probably announcing a Dakar car and maybe even registration in 2023 Dakar?

However, one big question mark for me if they made a Dakar car as evoked for some time: Prodrive accepts to lend Loeb to M-Sport (because he had an exclusivity contract with Prodrive) for making some WRC outings. Not sure at all David Richards would like to see M-Sport coming in Rally-Raid in these conditions.They've just confirmed they won't be at Dakar.

Lack of spare parts or supply of parts according to Wilson

[flat_right]

Maybe as Fiesta is set to be discontinued, they will make Rally2 car out of Puma?

[becher]

Slotcar models?
This i'd say.

[PLuto]

FUTURE OF M-SPORT BUILT FIESTAS
Following the announcement that the Ford Fiesta will cease production in 2023, M-Sport would like to highlight that the production of Fiesta based rally cars will continue and preparations have been well underway for some time in anticipation of this moment.
The Fiesta makes up the backbone of M-Sport’s rallying activities, representing 80% of its current rally car offering, and is the only line-up in the sport with a model offered at every level of the FIA’s Rally Pyramid.
Thanks to M-Sport’s close working relationship with Ford, the Cumbrian outfit has been aware for some time that the Fiesta model was coming to an end. With the cooperation and support of Ford, M-Sport has comprehensively increased its stock of Fiesta body shells to ensure production continues across all models for years to come both in the UK and Poland. All of M-Sport’s Fiesta based rally cars continue to be developed too, with multiple updates planned for the entire line-up in the next twelve months.
The Fiesta represents some of M-Sport’s greatest achievements and successes, its crowning highlight coming by way of the Fiesta WRC that led M-Sport to five world championships in 2017 and 2018. M-Sport’s love affair with the Fiesta started in 2005 with the Ford Fiesta ST Group N car, bringing a much loved and affordable homologated rally car to the masses.
Since then, M-Sport’s Fiesta based cars went from strength to strength, offering its customers the opportunity to start from the sport’s grassroots and rise to the very top in the same iconic car model. In total M-Sport Fiestas have claimed in excess of 2,000 overall victories, a truly awe-inspiring figure that reflects the popularity and success of M-Sport’s customer operations.
Malcolm Wilson OBE, M-Sport Managing Director, said:
“The Fiesta is a core part of M-Sport’s business activities and has been behind a lot of the company’s success in the past two decades. Thanks to our long and storied partnership with Ford, we were able to begin preparing for the end of the Fiesta’s production well ahead of time. I would like to assure all of our customers that we will still be building Fiesta rally cars for years to come, both in the UK and Poland.
“The Fiesta was the very first customer focussed car M-Sport developed and I think 2,000 overall victories speaks for itself. Development is underway across the board with our Fiesta based cars as well, with the Fiesta Rally2, Rally3 and Rally4 currently enjoying thorough development programmes.
“I’d like to personally thank Ford for their support over the years with the Fiesta. Ford and the Fiesta allowed M-Sport to grow as a business with its customer programmes which Ford trusted us with and continues to do so.”
Mark Rushbrook, Director of Ford Performance, said:
“The Fiesta has seen incredible success in rallying which is largely thanks to the time and effort M-Sport has put into its comprehensive ‘Ladder of Opportunity’ for over a decade now. Ford Performance has proudly supported M-Sport with all of its Fiesta based programmes from the very beginning and we have enjoyed incredible success together. We want this success to continue, and Ford Performance will continue supporting M-Sport with its various development programmes for Fiesta based rally cars.”

[skarderud]

Good for M-sport, drivers and fans!
But, Ford going to "marketing" a model they don't sell anymore?

Or have Ford a new model in pipeline, in some years to come?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Andre Oliveira]

They even didn’t added the new facelift Fiesta to Rally cars.

[J4MIE]

So what next for M-Sport after the “years to come”? What then?

[flat_right]

With this announcement it feels even more that Ford doesn't care what is happening in WRC. For a car brand it makes no sense to promote a car that is not available in their lineup. Today it is okay-ish to drive with them but in "years to come". Seriously?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good for M-sport, drivers and fans!
But, Ford going to "marketing" a model they don't sell anymore?

Or have Ford a new model in pipeline, in some years to come?



Rumoured to be the Puma.

The road car is on the Fiesta platform so not that different in chassis terms. But getting that taller bodyshell to work as a rally car will take some doing. Having said that it's only 1cm higher than the Citroen C3 and that has made a decent Rally2 car...

[rallyfiend]

With this announcement it feels even more that Ford doesn't care what is happening in WRC. For a car brand it makes no sense to promote a car that is not available in their lineup. Today it is okay-ish to drive with them but in "years to come". Seriously?

Below WRC all those cars are for 'customer racing' purposes.

It's not core for Ford, and matters less that it's not a current car anymore.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

With Ford's difficult financial position and the switch to an all-electric lineup of road cars, it makes sense to hold fire before committing to a new Rally2 car. Also the possible change in regulations to hybrid is another factor.

[manthey]

Rumoured to be the Puma.

The road car is on the Fiesta platform so not that different in chassis terms. But getting that taller bodyshell to work as a rally car will take some doing. Having said that it's only 1cm higher than the Citroen C3 and that has made a decent Rally2 car...I thought the same, they knew Fiesta's destiny and they changed for rally1 with headlights from Puma on fiesta chassis.

The can do the same for Rally2, in the aim to show the car is updated on aestetic base

[WRCStan]

I thought the same, they knew Fiesta's destiny and they changed for rally1 with headlights from Puma on fiesta chassis.

The can do the same for Rally2, in the aim to show the car is updated on aestetic base

Rally1 Puma is not a Fiesta chassis.

Puma road car shares Fiesta road car platform.

[Kenneth]

Yup, only the prototype showed in Goodwood was Fiesta that looked like Puma, but final car is something else... Still probably similar tho

[becher]

Yup, only the prototype showed in Goodwood was Fiesta that looked like Puma, but final car is something else... Still probably similar tho
Running gear probably yes, but chassis wise no.

[Andre Oliveira]

Rally1 is tubular and resized.
Rally2/3/4/5 need be a production car.

[Sulland]

And Fiesta Rally3/4/5 works fine, they just have to fix the Rally2, especially on loose surface.

[PLuto]

they just have to fix the Rally2, especially on loose surface.

Everywhere...

[manthey]

Rally1 Puma is not a Fiesta chassis.

Puma road car shares Fiesta road car platform.

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/copy-of-fiesta-wrc

Yes Bespoke tubular

Just curious that the link on the site is about fiesta

[Galev62]

The rally 2 is a disaster from the start because there was no proper driver devloping it mainly only Mathew Wilson. All around the car is easily worst of the rally 2 cars even old polo and old Hyandai are better in some aspects. They promised upgrades to Huttunen from sweden but they never came. Only small aerodynamic improvement. Kristensson, Suninen and Huttunen all hated it. Maybe M-sport just now doesn’t have the resources to devlop it. Some customers also have returned it to M-sport like Sarazin motorsport.

[AnttiL]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/copy-of-fiesta-wrc

Yes Bespoke tubular

Just curious that the link on the site is about fiesta

Yeah, curious URL, but could be something generated by a CMS, when you have just wanted to make a similar page as the previous Fiesta WRC page, pressed "copy", resulting in "Copy of Fiesta WRC" page and forgot to change the URL.

[WRCStan]

The Fiesta WRC is on https://www.m-sport.co.uk/fiesta-rally1 ?!

Maybe the CMS kept crashing so they sacked it and made do with the parts they had.

[Andre Oliveira]

Breen officially out

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-and-breen-part-ways

[Rallyest]

Breen officially out

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-and-breen-part-ways

Yeah, so if they by some miracle get Tänak or Evans, which i doubt, M-sport will be screwed next season, maybe if Loeb makes few outings, but otherwise will be crashing and 5-6-7 places for M-sport

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They talked to Tanak after he announced he was leaving Hyundai so they were trying to do a deal. Breen out surely means another driver in and Tanak has history with them.

Maybe M.Wilson will have a last hurrah with his team & the Puma and fund the deal himself...

[AndersX]

They talked to Tanak after he announced he was leaving Hyundai so they were trying to do a deal. Breen out surely means another driver in and Tanak has history with them.

Maybe M.Wilson will have a last hurrah with his team & the Puma and fund the deal himself...

I wrote earlier: Tanak and M-Sport can only be a business decision, there must be some side project involved. Smth like Dakar or similar. Red Grey ( even name talks) was MM+OT side deal to the paycheck in Hyundai.

[Oraamat]

I know everyone was speculating that Ott wont go to M-Sport because it wont make sense. Car is behind in development and funding quiestions, but this news made me thought that what if it actually makes sense.

I mean, maybe Ott going back to M-sport is his way to thank M.Wilson, and also, maybe salary isnt big issue and Ott would come down with numbers, because as Hyundai years showed, money can be good, but i you dont have car, then it hard to fight. Also he mentioned new challenges. Maybe the new challenge is to help to develop Puma to be equal with others. Comparing to Hyundai I think M-Sport has 100% trust in Ott feedback and developing questions whereas in Hyundai there could be scissors between going Ott whay of development or Thierrys way. And I wont think M-Sport would end Breens contract if they wouldnt try to make room for someone else. I mean there isnt anyone really better to take besides Ott and it only would make sense if Tänak is moving to M-Sport.

My two cents after Breen news.
Argue!

[cali]

Yeah, so if they by some miracle get Tänak or Evans, which i doubt, M-sport will be screwed next season, maybe if Loeb makes few outings, but otherwise will be crashing and 5-6-7 places for M-sport5-6-7 without Loeb, Evans or Tänak would be too optimistic. If Loubet is also gone then 8-10.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[AnttiL]

5-6-7 without Loeb, Evans or Tänak would be too optimistic. If Loubet is also gone then 8-10.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Other teams will only have six cars ahead, so 7-9 :P

[cali]

Other teams will only have six cars ahead, so 7-9 :PYes, or they have retirements

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

[Rallyest]

5-6-7 without Loeb, Evans or Tänak would be too optimistic. If Loubet is also gone then 8-10.

Sent from my DN2103 using Tapatalk

Well i was considering on some rallies people ahead crash, so 5-6-7 at the best, not all the time ;)

[WRCStan]

Also he mentioned new challenges. Maybe the new challenge is to help to develop Puma to be equal with others.

It's never specific. A fresh challenge is diplomatic way of saying you're not putting up with the same old bullshit anymore.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Any chance Tanak will ask and get to test the Puma before making a decision ?

(I assume if he has a Toyota option too then neither team would let him test.)

[TypeR]

Any chance Tanak will ask and get to test the Puma before making a decision ?

(I assume if he has a Toyota option too then neither team would let him test.)
If there was any chance for Malcolm to get Tänak, I think he would give Tänak as much testing as wanted..
If joining Toyota, it wouldn't need any testing, IT IS GOOD.

[meh]

If joining Toyota, it wouldn't need any testing, IT IS GOOD.

Not that simple I think - car can be good but does it suit you? Evans and Toyota this year is good (or bad) example.

But I really hope that M-Sport / Millener get some better reasons to give interviews on on-live than giving explanations after another crash.

[er88]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

[Managarium]

Any chance Tanak will ask and get to test the Puma before making a decision ?

(I assume if he has a Toyota option too then neither team would let him test.)

Maybe Malcolm would offer first.
I've read somwere that back in 2016. Malcolm first gave Ogier Fiesta for test drive and then they talked.

[meh]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

Pattern - Tänak goes and makes car good and then leaves. Did good car for M-Sport, then made "made FOR Finland" Toyota to be good everywhere, now Hyundai got much much better... and now, back to M-Sport.

[WRC1]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

after all we heard about the Belgian Mr. Hyundai, i think Tänak would have left Hyundai even for a Seat in WRC3.....nobody except Sordo can stay there longer than 3 years.

[manthey]

Pattern - Tänak goes and makes car good and then leaves. Did good car for M-Sport, then made "made FOR Finland" Toyota to be good everywhere, now Hyundai got much much better... and now, back to M-Sport.

Which driving style prefers Tanak? A bit of underster approaching the bends and then very neutral to the apex and in exiting?

[krissucool]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

Why? There can be many reasons, I think mainly as he lacked any faith in the team and did not enjoy it there.

He is going to Msport and that is a fact. Lets hope it will be a good decision.

[BobJones]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

And yet, that's what I think is happening exactly.

[satnav]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

You're right in everything you say there, the only person who can answer the first question is Ott himself so you'll have to ask him to find out why .......

[mknight]

Since there is some speculation on Tanak and Solberg in Pumas connected though maybe not full "in" MSport.

That combination of 3 stubborn bosses has huge potential either way
- massive success
Or
-massive drama

[bwallace]

https://revistascratch.com/wrc/noticia/ott-tanak-y-oliver-solberg-correran-junto-a-monster-en-el-wrc-2023-67106?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter rumors that will be renting car for m-sport with monster sponsorship.

[mknight]

Problem with many sites is that they just repost what they read here or on Twitter as rumors with no own sources or checking. (but I have to idea how reliable this one is).

[EstWRC]

I can’t see the logic there, why would Ott pay for rent when he could drive without paying for the main team

[WRCStan]

I can’t see the logic there, why would Ott pay for rent when he could drive without paying for the main team

Maybe there is no main team? !

[Fiesta]

Maybe M-sport doesn't pay, but Monster does. So he will get paid with Sohlberg/Monster team. And also get money through Red Grey when they are being paid for running the show.

[pettersolberg29]

Why would Tanak leave Hyundai for Msport? That would almost be a worse decision than leaving Toyota for Hyundai.

Hyundai have ramped up development, have won 5 rallies this year and Msports reliability is really bad (worse than Hyundai's?)

Happiness. He's a World Champ yet was treated like a nobody for the past 12 months, and had no influence in the team or the development direction. I have a huge amount of respect for someone who can put their happiness and enjoyment first and foremost.

[bwallace]

not much time to wait for m-sport announce they driver line up i will not surprise if m-sport somehow found a deal with loeb witch looks very unreal at this moment but we live in crazy world :D

[Sal yet again]

Loeb and Fourmaux wont be around if Tanak and Solberg bring Monster money as two energy drink brands on cars wont wash either way. Wont bother Greensmith as his papa's money will cover him. Is Gus up to being a point scoring number 2 yet for the manufacturers as surely they cant put Oliver in the 2nd R1 car for a whole season?

[wyler]

Happiness. He's a World Champ yet was treated like a nobody for the past 12 months, and had no influence in the team or the development direction. I have a huge amount of respect for someone who can put their happiness and enjoyment first and foremost.

so happiness is living the same situation for the "rising star" solberg? :D
I'd like the general idea, but i think it wouldn't be ideal for tanak again (unless for the red-grey business).
i know there's huge difference between ott and oliver, but we know what kind of dad&manager petter is about his son. they're friend with ott, ok, but oliver would be fisrt think always. having him as as team boss wouldn't make me relax if i were in tanak shoes...
still would be great for the championship!

[dimviii]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fh68ht_XgAE-W6e?format=jpg&name=small

[EstWRC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221120/ee90c2e82b7551bcded35b72145b0fd0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221120/09463caa1589f5dc3f318cf33e3db88f.jpg

[skarderud]

Loeb and Fourmaux wont be around if Tanak and Solberg bring Monster money as two energy drink brands on cars wont wash either way. Wont bother Greensmith as his papa's money will cover him. Is Gus up to being a point scoring number 2 yet for the manufacturers as surely they cant put Oliver in the 2nd R1 car for a whole season?Maybe thats the reason of two teams, one RedBull and one Monster team, everyone is happy, specially malcom?:)

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[Fast Eddie WRC]

Maybe thats the reason of two teams, one RedBull and one Monster team, everyone is happy, specially malcom?:)

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

Not sure Malcolm would be so happy if the Monster team has Tanak as it would surely beat his M-Sport team. Good for the business-side maybe, but not for his ego...

[AndersX]

Sorry, but all this story start to look either as a best kept secret or total BS - it is impossible to make a competitive, top level team with 2 months left till the first rally of 2023. Seems that everybody is tired of all these rumors and there is no real story traction or excitement here around anymore. You all remember very well what did it take to Petter to run his own car and team in WRC after Subaru left. It was a David - Goliath fight without any success.

[skarderud]

Not sure Malcolm would be so happy if the Monster team has Tanak as it would surely beat his M-Sport team. Good for the business-side maybe, but not for his ego...Maybe the business is more important than his ego these days?

its not a different team, thats not possible in 2 months time and this kind of cars, it has to be a "M-sport Monster WRT" and a "M-sport Redbull WRT".
Still a M-sport Ford can win some rallies.

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[meh]

I think for Mr Wilson is more important thing, that his car from his garage is successful, not precisely the title of the team name.

Logically, for Tänak it does not make sense to mess with private team if he can be part of "factory" team. For Solberg it's maybe a bit different story.

Good thing is - something is cooking there and at the moment we can hope to see Tänak and Solberg next year.

Based on rumors - it would be interesting to see, if and how Wilson, Tänak, P. Solberg and Märtin can work on the same thing and with the same goal together.

[Sulland]

This is what some of us has been hoping for, private teams alongside the factoryteams, in the same equipment.

As written below, for Ford/MSport it is more important with podiums, than who drives/reads!

[Rallyper]

I see a joint venture close to each other, if it happens. Logistics can be solved and Malcolm runs both, with Petter running the marketplace of Monstercars.

[skarderud]

If M-sport can run 6-7 Rally1 cars, its good, both for us fans, and for theire business.
More money to develop the cars too, and more interest to do so.


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[pettersolberg29]

Don't want to spoil the party, but this whole story came from the Solberg's trip to Monster and Oliver tweeting "exciting things coming soon".

That "exciting thing" is a podcast - the Monster UNLEASHED podcast. Sure, it doesn't mean the whole story has no substance at all, but I think somebody has over egged the pudding...

[AndersX]

Don't want to spoil the party, but this whole story came from the Solberg's trip to Monster and Oliver tweeting "exciting things coming soon".

That "exciting thing" is a podcast - the Monster UNLEASHED podcast. Sure, it doesn't mean the whole story has no substance at all, but I think somebody has over egged the pudding...

I totally agree - there is no logic behind the private team in so short time; however, Oliver would benefit - he could build up his experience without any pressure. For Tanak - no way this would make any sense.

[skarderud]

I totally agree - there is no logic behind the private team in so short time; however, Oliver would benefit - he could build up his experience without any pressure. For Tanak - no way this would make any sense.It's not a private team, its 2 M-sport teams, with 2 different energydrinks as sponsors.
If it happens.

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[meh]

Are we enthusiastic about all this thanks to Loeb?

Without Loeb we maybe could think that M-Sport does not have competitive car and Breen actually is really good driver, just car is crap. Now, Loeb brought reality check for everyone. Speed wise and reliability wise - speed is (maybe) there, reliability (maybe) is not that well there.

[mknight]

Loubet and Greensmith also had some very good times. Loubet even over many rallies.

But sure a lot is thanks to Loeb. Even more so given how he has struggled in the Hyundai.

[Sergiow]

Interesting comparision between the Puma and Hyundai WRC by Loubet:

"Another weak point of the current Rally1 car generation is the lack of front downforce, as the 2022 regulations forbid most of the parts included in the previous WRC car generation designed with that purpose. How teams are dealing with it?

For M-Sport driver Pierre Louis Loubet this doesn’t seem to be a problem at all: “There’s less front downforce, yes, but to speak about the front of the car is not only about the aero, as the philosophy of the Puma is that you have a very good front, I mean about the chassis. In a car like that, front downforce just helps on this side. In other cars that I have driven, when you don’t have a very good front, aerodynamics are very important, because you can compensate a lot with that. In the Puma I would say that the chassis does the job on the slow corners to turn, while on the Hyundai it was much more different, you feel that you need to push more to turn the car. At this moment the downforce can help, so you have to be very aggressive on the car. The Puma chassis doesn’t require so much support from the aero side”.
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2022/10/31/rally1-aero-developments-for-2023-technical-managers-explain/

[manthey]

Interesting comparision between the Puma and Hyundai WRC by Loubet:

"Another weak point of the current Rally1 car generation is the lack of front downforce, as the 2022 regulations forbid most of the parts included in the previous WRC car generation designed with that purpose. How teams are dealing with it?

For M-Sport driver Pierre Louis Loubet this doesn’t seem to be a problem at all: “There’s less front downforce, yes, but to speak about the front of the car is not only about the aero, as the philosophy of the Puma is that you have a very good front, I mean about the chassis. In a car like that, front downforce just helps on this side. In other cars that I have driven, when you don’t have a very good front, aerodynamics are very important, because you can compensate a lot with that. In the Puma I would say that the chassis does the job on the slow corners to turn, while on the Hyundai it was much more different, you feel that you need to push more to turn the car. At this moment the downforce can help, so you have to be very aggressive on the car. The Puma chassis doesn’t require so much support from the aero side”.
https://www.wrcwings.tech/2022/10/31/rally1-aero-developments-for-2023-technical-managers-explain/Good point, so "easier" puma.

Who are the development's drivers for Msport?

[mknight]

Breen was complaining both in Spain and Japan that the front tires overheat/get worn too easily ( due to too much grip??) and he has to try to be gentle with them.

Turned around it can be he was used to previous i20 (as described by Loubet) that required more aggressive push on front.

[Hartusvuori]

Who are the development's drivers for Msport?

Matthew Wilson did much of the development testing for Puma Rally1.

[doubled1978]

Breen was complaining both in Spain and Japan that the front tires overheat/get worn too easily ( due to too much grip??) and he has to try to be gentle with them.

Turned around it can be he was used to previous i20 (as described by Loubet) that required more aggressive push on front.

To me watching from outside, in tarmac trim at least, the Puma looks like it is very direct in initial turn in, but once it’s turning it has quite a bit of understeer.
All the current cars understeer a bit in tarmac trim, I guess because no centre diff, but I would say the Puma is the most pronounced.
Of course what I’m seeing might be wrong, and it’s actually the opposite in that they throw it in and then let it understeer as the front is too strong, but looking at the onboard inputs, I think it’s more likely the former.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

All of the i20's have been largely tailored to Neuville and his frequent use of the handbrake at all speeds to reduce understeer.

[AnttiL]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-still-negotiating-2023-seats/


Naturally, we’re talking with Gus [Greensmith] and Pierre-Louis [Loubet] – both those guys had a successful 2022 season with us and we’re interested to continue working with them.”

Notice that Fourmaux is not mentioned.

Also Tänak and Loeb mentioned but it's more like not closing any doors on anyone.

[Rallyest]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2022/wrc/m-sport-still-negotiating-2023-seats/



Notice that Fourmaux is not mentioned.

Also Tänak and Loeb mentioned but it's more like not closing any doors on anyone.

“Like I said, we’re talking to everybody,” said Millener. “That includes [Tänak] and Séb [Loeb]. We’re confident we have a competitive car in the Ford Puma Rally1 Hybrid and we know what we’ve got coming for next season.

If anything that says to me Tänak will be doing few rallies if at all, and probably not a whole season. Hope im wrong tho

[wyler]

[url]



Notice that Fourmaux is not mentioned.



but he was kinda confirmed for 23 before japan, maybe only wrc2, but i think he ll still be around cumbria

[cali]

“Like I said, we’re talking to everybody,” said Millener. “That includes [Tänak] and Séb [Loeb]. We’re confident we have a competitive car in the Ford Puma Rally1 Hybrid and we know what we’ve got coming for next season.

If anything that says to me Tänak will be doing few rallies if at all, and probably not a whole season. Hope im wrong thoImho youre not wrong

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[TypeR]

Lappi and Breen to Hyundai negotiating didn't wait for christmas.. but M-Sport doing things slooow way, again

[meh]

Lappi and Breen to Hyundai negotiating didn't wait for christmas.. but M-Sport doing things slooow way, again

And why the should hurry? There are no seats available anymore outside M-Sport (maybe rental option for Toyota). Now M-Sport can choose who they actually want and for drivers have options to take it or stay away from Rally 1 competition. So, they have strong position.

But. If they get the deal too late, new drivers can not get familiar enough with the car and maybe are not that competitive and ready for the new season.

[mknight]

Guys how can you still be taking MSport PR seriously.

I believe their PR last year was exactly the same. Talking to lot of drivers blah blah....and then we get the same 1-2 paying names that MSports has been pushing up most of the year.

This year it is Loubet and Greensmith ("sucessful" season...yay 2 stage wins..and 5th as best, one lower than last year).

The only uncertainty is Tanak and I think they will reveal that immediately when anything is signed to max our PR time.

All the other drivers they will keep "secret" until January, just like they mostly did last 3-4 years.

[Rallyest]

About the monster rumours, it kinda makes sense if you put the puzzle pieces together..Anyway what i heard adds fire to the rumours spreading and i guess there has to be some truth behind it. Since he is basically only driver who is not connected to Red Bull with Solberg Tänak and Monster will come with a car that they will buy/rent from M-sport, Solberg will be the other driver. And Before everybody had doubts why would Tänak risk with a private team instead of a manufacturer team is that Monster will pay Tänak salary, and behind all this Red-grey will manage the cars run under the Monster logos.

Thinking of a business side and how Ott has always made his decisions favourable to his future, this deal makes very much sense.

Lets see how well this ages, but this info comes from a source that i think could be trusted 80% :D

[manthey]

And Before everybody had doubts why would Tänak risk with a private team instead of a manufacturer team is that Monster will pay Tänak salary, and behind all this Red-grey will manage the cars run under the Monster logos.

Thinking of a business side and how Ott has always made his decisions favourable to his future, this deal makes very much sense.

Lets see how well this ages, but this info comes from a source that i think could be trusted 80% :DVery interesting if they can adapt the car totally to Tanak's driving preferences

Can they use jokers as a team on the Puma?

[AnttiL]

About the monster rumours, it kinda makes sense if you put the puzzle pieces together..Anyway what i heard adds fire to the rumours spreading and i guess there has to be some truth behind it. Since he is basically only driver who is not connected to Red Bull with Solberg Tänak and Monster will come with a car that they will buy/rent from M-sport, Solberg will be the other driver. And Before everybody had doubts why would Tänak risk with a private team instead of a manufacturer team is that Monster will pay Tänak salary, and behind all this Red-grey will manage the cars run under the Monster logos.

Thinking of a business side and how Ott has always made his decisions favourable to his future, this deal makes very much sense.

Lets see how well this ages, but this info comes from a source that i think could be trusted 80% :D

The budget for that kind of a project isn't just "one million for buying a Puma, x million for Tänak's salary". The car has to be run and someone has to pay for it. And most importantly the testing and development. RedGrey isn't a factory team, it doesn't fund itself, it is just an operator that needs support from a paying customer. I can see the benefit from Tänak putting in money in this project to employ his own team and get some of the money "back" that way, but still that money has to come from somewhere.

Usually when drivers pay to be an M-Sport driver it's investing for a future career, to be later a factory driver with salary to get return for that investment. But in Tänak's case there's no need for that.