M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

[AnttiL]

Funny story where Lappi jokes to rallit.fi that they should send Rich Millener his number. Then they actually ask Millener if he has the number and he says they just texted a while ago. Millener also says they start the 2022 car testing with the current WRC drivers and Matthew Wilson, but may need external specialists later.

EDIT: Forgot link https://www.rallit.fi/esapekka-lappi-arveli-etta-wrc-pomo-oli-hukannut-hanen-numeronsa-tallipaallikolta-ytimekas-kuitti-suomalaiskuskille/

[1988senna]

any test update information?

[flat_right]

I was also wondering about this. They made some press news etc and still no info. I wonder what happened...

[AnttiL]

I thought they also tweeted "this is all we can reveal so far", but it was clearly important for them to claim they were the first to start testing. When Toyota tests in the forests, it's open for everyone. But M-Sport has closed facilities for testing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

New updated engine for Croatia and further improvements to come before the July cut-off point:

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-to-debut-new-engine-in-croatia/

[Sulland]

If M-Sport should hire a typical "asphalt specialist" for coratia, just to prove that the car has the speed - Who should they ask for a one off?

Who is the 2021 Panizzi?

[TheFlyingTuga]

If M-Sport should hire a typical "asphalt specialist" for coratia, just to prove that the car has the speed - Who should they ask for a one off?

Who is the 2021 Panizzi?

Sincerely, no one. Although there best option would be Formaux

[AnttiL]

2017 and 2018 Catalunya winners Meeke and Loeb would be available.

[TheFlyingTuga]

2017 and 2018 Catalunya winners Meeke and Loeb would be available.

Highly doubt Loeb would drive for them and Meeke would probably ended up costing more to the team xD

[Andre Oliveira]

Fourmaux allready go.

Sordo is the best non participating in that rally.

[mknight]

Fourmaux allready go.

Sordo is the best non participating in that rally.

Except Sordo has a contract at Hyundai.
Appart from mentioned Loeb and Meeke, Latvala has some job as well.

Which leaves Mikkelsen who has more recent WRC tarmac win vs Sordo (2015 vs 2013) as well as second place (2017 vs 2016). Though obviously after the i20 WRC tarmac speed it's quite hard to think of him as "Panizzi". Then again nobody says Loeb cant drive on tarmac after similar experience.

Anyway kinda pointless discussion. Fourmaux seems like a decent tarmac driver, so I won't be surprised if he even is ahead of Suninen on some stages. Suninen has some moments on tarmac but can't seem to keep the pace over multiple stages.

[er88]

Except Sordo has a contract at Hyundai.
Appart from mentioned Loeb and Meeke, Latvala has some job as well.

Which leaves Mikkelsen who has more recent WRC tarmac win vs Sordo (2015 vs 2013) as well as second place (2017 vs 2016). Though obviously after the i20 WRC tarmac speed it's quite hard to think of him as "Panizzi". Then again nobody says Loeb cant drive on tarmac after similar experience.

Anyway kinda pointless discussion. Fourmaux seems like a decent tarmac driver, so I won't be surprised if he even is ahead of Suninen on some stages. Suninen has some moments on tarmac but can't seem to keep the pace over multiple stages.Don't think Suninen is even going to Croatia unfortunately.

[AnttiL]

Yes, Suninen won't do Croatia.

[mknight]

Huh didn't notice. So Fourmaux will only have Greensmith to compare.... ok.

[denkimi]

If M-Sport should hire a typical "asphalt specialist" for coratia, just to prove that the car has the speed - Who should they ask for a one off?

Who is the 2021 Panizzi?
If the only goal is to prove the speed of the car: meeke.

Most likely he will crash, but he might do it while leading the rally. :p

[er88]

I'm surprised they're going to Croatia with the new engine, but only Fourmaux and Greensmith in the car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If M-Sport should hire a typical "asphalt specialist" for coratia, just to prove that the car has the speed - Who should they ask for a one off?

Who is the 2021 Panizzi?

An 'asphalt specialist' would have to be one with current WRC car experience to have any chance ie Meeke.

Otherwise you'd need a maniac like Lukyanuk or Kubica just to show the car's pace before probably crashing it.

[Rallyper]

Or just Suninen. He was fastest on first stage in RMC, before crash, wasn´t he? Maybe was it a bit slushy...? Not pure tarmac?

However I would go for Suninen if I was Malcolm...

[AnttiL]

I'm surprised they're going to Croatia with the new engine, but only Fourmaux and Greensmith in the car.

Because Suninen couldn't get the budget together for the whole season. But his program should be broader than the half-season originally planned.

[bomber21]

MAR 31, 2021 | M-SPORT PRESS RELEASE
M-SPORT FORD COMMIT TO WRC HYBRID ERA
—————————————————

UNITED KINGDOM - M-Sport Ford have committed to the future of rallying – pledging to register and participate in the FIA World Rally Championship’s new hybrid era from 2022 to 2024.

This new commitment strengthens M-Sport’s relationship with the Blue Oval – a partnership which has delivered considerable success over more than two decades.

Joining forces in 1997, M-Sport Ford have secured seven FIA World Rally Championships, 61 victories, 262 podiums and more than 1500 stage wins – making them one of the sport’s most successful partnerships with an unbroken record of 258 consecutive point scores.

The introduction of hybrid technology into the FIA World Rally Championship signals a landmark development at the highest level of the sport – and M-Sport Ford remain committed to delivering top results with rally-winning technology.

The commitment also ensures M-Sport’s continuation at the pinnacle of the sport – safeguarding jobs and boosting engineering expertise at the team’s Dovenby Hall headquarters.

Aligned with Ford’s global strategy towards creating a more sustainable future, the world’s toughest championship for production-based cars is now fully committed to the introduction of greener technology; and M-Sport Ford are fully committed to the continuation of their successful partnership.

M-Sport Managing Director, Malcolm Wilson OBE, said:

“It’s always been important for our sport to move with the times, and this commitment to hybrid technology aligns the future of rallying with Ford’s global commitment towards a more sustainable future.

“As the toughest championship for production-based cars, the FIA World Rally Championship provides the perfect platform to test, develop and promote the latest road car technology – making this development integral to the relevance and continuation of our sport.

“It has also been integral to the continuation of our successful partnership with Ford and safeguards the immediate future of M-Sport in the FIA World Rally Championship.

“Over the past two decades we have delivered some fantastic performances and developed some of the championship’s most successful cars and drivers. Working closely with Ford Performance, it is our intention to continue that success in 2022 and progress on our latest challenger continues with testing both here in the UK and in America.

“There is still a long way to go, but we’re committed to delivering another rally winner as the world moves towards a more sustainable future.”

Global Director for Ford Performance, Mark Rushbrook, said:

“The WRC’s transition from pure internal combustion engine powertrains to hybrid technology comes at an opportune time for Ford.

“The company is rapidly moving towards an electrified future, developing hybrid and electric vehicle technology for our newest passenger vehicles and commercial vehicles around the world.

“Running a hybrid Rally 1 car next season will enable us to test and demonstrate this technology in the thrilling spectacle that is WRC, and we can’t wait to show you what it can do!”


https://performance.ford.com/series/rally/news/articles/rally/2021/3/m-sport-hybrid.html

[the sniper]

I would assume there's no great change to the relationship between Ford and M-Sport then, but time will tell. Here's hoping Red Bull give them a boost to level them up with the other two manufacturer teams, it's within their power...

[Andre Oliveira]

Here the tarmac expert:

Loeb open to driving for M-Sport in the WRC

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-open-to-driving-for-m-sport-in-the-wrc/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Here the tarmac expert:

Loeb open to driving for M-Sport in the WRC

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-open-to-driving-for-m-sport-in-the-wrc/

Next year maybe, not for 2021 Rally Croatia.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzF0eKUW8AATSC-?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzF0ej0W8AMNELU?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EzF0e6PWUAMKYmZ?format=jpg&name=large

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Great to see RB sponsoring a Fiesta again.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Fourmaux's WRC debut Ogier-like says Millener :

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/millener-fourmaux-was-similar-to-ogier-in-croatia/

[mknight]

Obviously the huge difference was that Ogier's debut was on gravel, the most common surface in WRC. (Ogier was also known as very good gravel driver early on).

They should work on that. Could be in WRC car for that matter if they have money for it. But better 2-3 gravel rallies in Rally2 than one in WRC imo.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The comparison wasnt with Ogier's own WRC debut:

"It’s been a very impressive debut, and you can certainly see a resemblance to Ogier in the way he conducts himself".

[HKSjbg]

I noticed Greensmith’s car doesn’t have Crown Oil stickers on it anymore (nor did Fourmaux’s car have Yacco stickers, but then he has got Red Bull backing now), probably shows how much atttention I was paying to Rallye Monte Carlo and Arctic Rally...

I thought Crown Oil is his dad’s company and was basically where his funding was coming from? Does anyone know what’s changed since last season?

[mknight]

Maybe it's because he is driving in the "main" team and that one has Castrol stickers as part of a sponsor deal for the whole team?

[HKSjbg]

Yeah makes sense, also possibly explains why Fourmaux’s car didn’t have the Yacco stickers too if Castrol wanted exclusive presence on the World Rally cars this year

[Steve Boyd]

Castrol are sole suppliers to Ford for production cars, so Ford may be the driving force behind the M-Sport/Castrol tie-up.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It'll be cheaper for GG not to have his family firm pay for sponsorship on the car. They will already be paying a lot just for his drive for a full season.

[EstWRC]

cause otherwise he wouldnt have a drive at all

[Fast Eddie WRC]

cause otherwise he wouldnt have a drive at all

And fans would have one less WRC car to enjoy.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0AqYbcXEAA33vL?format=jpg&name=medium

[dimviii]

Just north of Barcelona, Wilson pulled on his M-Sport Ford overalls and ran a hybrid Rally1 car in anger for the very first time. Nobody else has done that. Until now, the 2022 test car has run with ballast in place of the battery. But now the Compact Dynamics supplied motors and Kreisel batteries are all aboard working a treat.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/inside-m-sports-first-full-hybrid-rally1-car-test/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi says he's the clear choice for 2022...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/lappi-ive-proved-im-clear-choice-for-2022-seat

[mknight]

A bit of a clickbait title. In the article he actually says:


"I’m not saying that I’m the man to win, but I feel like I’m one of the best choices for what is available.”



Anyway there are two things that might work against him

1. As mentioned in the article he drove for MSport last year so they know what to expect.
He is not driving with them in any form this year and is instead paying WRC2 drives at a different team. Hard to say if that means anything.

2. He does not have many good results on tarmac.
He did finish 3rd in Germany 2018, but that was after Latvala and Sordo retired on last day. He does have some good stage times, but doesn't seem to be able to connect them.

So if he wants to increase his chances he definitely should drive some tarmac round (Ypres or Spain).

=============================

Dirtfish speculates that MSport could stick with
Suninen, Fourmaux and Greensmith next year.....

sorry but a lineup of Lappi, Mikkelsen, Fourmaux and Greensmith paying own starts sounds so much better. I'd guess MSport could afford both Lappi and Mikkelsen for the price of Tanak or Ogier.

[trykmann]

I hope Ogier will rejoin M-Sport for the following season. It would be great, if he would do a partial season with them.

[TypeR]

I hope Ogier will rejoin M-Sport for the following season. It would be great, if he would do a partial season with them.
If he continues like that, I'm quite sure he will do full season next year.. in Toyota

[rp]

I hope Ogier will rejoin M-Sport for the following season. It would be great, if he would do a partial season with them.

It would be great, but unfortunately will not happen, because he is dreaming to drive Le Mans and it´s also possible with Toyota...

[doubled1978]

A bit of a clickbait title. In the article he actually says:



Anyway there are two things that might work against him

1. As mentioned in the article he drove for MSport last year so they know what to expect.
He is not driving with them in any form this year and is instead paying WRC2 drives at a different team. Hard to say if that means anything.

2. He does not have many good results on tarmac.
He did finish 3rd in Germany 2018, but that was after Latvala and Sordo retired on last day. He does have some good stage times, but doesn't seem to be able to connect them.

So if he wants to increase his chances he definitely should drive some tarmac round (Ypres or Spain).

=============================

Dirtfish speculates that MSport could stick with
Suninen, Fourmaux and Greensmith next year.....

sorry but a lineup of Lappi, Mikkelsen, Fourmaux and Greensmith paying own starts sounds so much better. I'd guess MSport could afford both Lappi and Mikkelsen for the price of Tanak or Ogier.

I agree, if they could put that line up together, you would expect if the car is competitive that they would get good results.
Is Mikkelsen still Red Bull? With Fourmaux it could be a good angle..

[mknight]

Mikkelsen has Red Bull as a personal sponsor (recently got new helmet as well), no idea how big.

I am also not so sure how clean cut it is between Lappi and Suninen. At Monte and Sweden last year Lappi was much faster, but then starting from Mexico Sunninen was faster in all rallies until Monza (Mexico, Estonia, Turkey and Sardinia), typically with a bit better start position. In Monza Suninen got technical issues immediatelly so it wasn't possible to compare.
Now in Portugal they had same speed on Friday, then on Saturday Lappi pulled away, but they weren't in same car.

But for Suninen at this point, I would say it's a disadvantage that all he ever drove in WRC and partly also in R5 is a Fiesta.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If they are able to pay for a driver then Lappi is probably the one to go for in 2022, given those who are realistically available. He also has good experience in many teams to help develop the new car.

The top guys are either in contract or retiring and others like Breen very closely associated another team.

Suninen and Mikkelsen can bring some budget, plus Greensmith maybe can do another year of full payment.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport:
Matton has reiterated that Ford is putting more focus on the WRC and is heavily involved in the development of M-Sport’s 2022 Rally1 car.

“From what I know Ford is deeply involved in the development of the new car and we have a Ford representative in the different working groups, so it shows they are really interested by this new car and the next generation of cars,”

Matton replied, when quizzed if the new rules could entice Ford to become a full WRC manufacturer again.

“They will be very close to M-Sport in the future.”

[Fast Eddie WRC]

1999 Focus WRC compared to 2021 Fiesta Rally2:

https://youtu.be/H3H0KKsdKGU

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wide-ranging Rich Millener interview, incl. Safari, Rally 1 car, Covid, costs & Estonia.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4EXLMEqWBHRlqTsvctBoVm?si=dFW6ZAptToWB9QLom2OrFQ&dl_branch=1

[Andre Oliveira]

Autosport:
Matton has reiterated that Ford is putting more focus on the WRC and is heavily involved in the development of M-Sport’s 2022 Rally1 car.

“From what I know Ford is deeply involved in the development of the new car and we have a Ford representative in the different working groups, so it shows they are really interested by this new car and the next generation of cars,”

Matton replied, when quizzed if the new rules could entice Ford to become a full WRC manufacturer again.

“They will be very close to M-Sport in the future.”


Without proper drivers, full back means nothing.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Without proper drivers, full back means nothing.

Which 'proper drivers' are available ? Toyota and Hyundai have them all under contract.

[bandit12]

Well.... Mikkelsen?

[mknight]

Lappi and Mikkelsen are both WRC event winners and multiple podium scorers and are "active" (unlike say Meeke and partly Paddon). (The WRC part is important cause some drivers just don't adapt to the change to WRC well (Tidemand latest example)). So just picking someone good in Rally2 doesn't automatically mean he will do well in WRC.

If they are in a competitive car there is no reason they shouldn't be able to fight for podiums on most rallies. I'd say they are both roughly comparable to Evans and have proven so when in similar cars in the recent past.

It is easy to notice how Evans results changed when he moved to Toyota in 2020.

However, neither Lappi nor Mikkelsen are proven "top class" drivers like the WRC champions Ogier and Tanak, or Neuville who has many more event wins.
Evans kinda upgraded to this topclass after he moved to Toyota.
It is totally possible that some new drivers like Rovanpera, Solberg or Fourmaux will get to that top class level at some point. But right now not even Rovanpera can show results similar to Lappi or Mikkelsen (he has 2 podiums in 14 starts). Fourmaux and Solberg are another step down.

But in rally as in other sports, drivers often get hired due to "future potential", rather then "decent results" that you would expect from "old" drivers like Lappi and Mikkelsen.

I'd say a good team needs both "future potential" and older experienced drivers, but Malcolm has often picked just the new guys. Sometimes it turned out well relatively fast (Martin), sometimes it took long time and a few demotions from WRC (Tanak, Evans), sometimes it went bad one way or another (Duval, Camilli, could also rank Gardemeister and Kresta here).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wide-ranging Rich Millener interview, incl. Safari, Rally 1 car, Covid, costs & Estonia.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4EXLMEqWBHRlqTsvctBoVm?si=dFW6ZAptToWB9QLom2OrFQ&dl_branch=1

Millener says in this interview that he wouldnt mind if Fourmaux , Greensmith and Suninen is their line-up for 2022. He thinks they are becoming more and more competitive (setting some good times in recent events) and would be capable in their Rally1 car which is expected to be the fastest at the start of the new era.

[Andre Oliveira]

Which 'proper drivers' are available ? Toyota and Hyundai have them all under contract.

Exactly. They lost the momentum (Hyundai ones renewed).

[AnttiL]

Millener says in this interview that he wouldnt mind if Fourmaux , Greensmith and Suninen is their line-up for 2022. He thinks they are becoming more and more competitive (setting some good times in recent events) and would be capable in their Rally1 car which is expected to be the fastest at the start of the new era.

Uh oh

[doubled1978]

Uh oh

I’m not sure how we have got to Msport being expected to have the fastest car at the start of next year. I think everyone acknowledges they do a great job at the start of new regulation cycles, but with the resources available elsewhere I’d be amazed if they have the flat out fastest car. I’m sure they will be more competitive than the current car is today, but if it was my money I’d be putting it on Toyota having the fastest car come the start of next year.

[AndyRAC]

Millener says in this interview that he wouldn't mind if Fourmaux , Greensmith and Suninen is their line-up for 2022. He thinks they are becoming more and more competitive (setting some good times in recent events) and would be capable in their Rally1 car which is expected to be the fastest at the start of the new era.

Hmm, with the greatest of respect, that doesn't fill me with massive hope/confidence. I doubt Toyota or Hyundai are worried about them come next year. No winners - some flashes of speed but lots of inconsistency.

[bomber21]

No matter how great the new Fiesta will be, if M-Sport lineup will be Suninen, Greensmith and Fourmaux, they have no chance. They will be last in every rally, just like this year.

And Ford will not like this. They want to promote the hybrid and finishing always last, it is not the best promotion.

[Andre Oliveira]

I only see one way out, or hire Neuville from Hyundai (his position looks fragile) or pick the best unemployed -> Meeke. Second alternative is Mikkelsen or Paddon.

[the sniper]

And Ford will not like this. They want to promote the hybrid and finishing always last, it is not the best promotion.

They could easily avoid that situation.

[steve.mandzij]

Shame Jari-Matti has called it a day on his driving career. I could have seen him leading M-Sport into the new generation of cars.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[denkimi]

Lappi, mikkelsen, ostberg, meeke, abbring, paddon or even loeb could be available.

[TypeR]

Henning Solberg, Tidemand, Camilli, Lukyanuk etc would also like to drive a new WRC car, but won't happen :D

Why start again with Paddon, Abbring, Östberg, Meeke in WRC car :D

[trykmann]

My main concern about Suninen, Greensmith and Fourmaux is the lack of experience. They can show good split times, but I'm not sure if they are experienced enough to develop a fast car. They seem to be able show competitive stage times, if they are given a good car.

Someone fast with lots of experience would be necessary, for example Loeb or Meeke. They wouldn't need to do a full 2022 season with the new car. Maybe only some events and testing.

[djip]

Lappi, mikkelsen, ostberg, meeke, abbring, paddon or even loeb could be available.

From this list, Lappi is the only one I rate highly as a potential "Tier 1". His time at Toyota did not end well but it seemed he had a sour relation with Tommi that took him in a downhill spiral. He did well at Citroen against Ogier with a difficult car. His year at MSport has been difficult, but given the lack of proper benchmark (nobody really knows what Sunninen is worth ...) it is difficult to tell how much is due to the car and how much is due to the driver. Somehow however, it seems to me that Lappi has burned bridges at MSport ... Most likely for him is back to Toyota complementing Ogier. If he rediscovers his 2017 form, then he'll be back on track. If he gets beaten by Evans/Rovanpera, then so be it.

Which for MSport does not leave a hell of a choice. Mikkelsen is a WRC winner and has massisve experience but i don't rate him as full Tier 1. I wish i would be proven wrong, but his latest WR2/ERC outings are questionable at best. He brings somemoney, though, and as such could be a great candidate for MSport, fast enough, experienced , reliable ad well-supported.

Out of the rest, only Paddon may have some unfullfiled potential. His demotion from Hyundai was brutal (he was not "that" bad in his last year) and he almost drove twice for Malcolm already. However he hasbeen far remote from WRC action for quite some time and it is questionable if he can hit the ground running ...

I am sorry to say that Loeb has finally hit the retirement date (speed falling out) - same for Meeke (in his case not for sheer speed, but for not showing that you can climb the last step combining speed and consistency)/ Ostberg as nice of a bloke he is, has never shown that he "had it" (this last, ultimate speed) to be in the tier 1 group and Abbring never achieved anything.

Out of the current line-up, I think Sunninen is gone. He had countless time to develop and never really delivered :more than a few glimpses of speed. He looks to me just like Ostberrg : Good, but not good enough. Greensmith, whilst improving, is nothing more than a pay-driver. He may get his maiden pmodium one day but that's about it (and would require a significant attrition level rally). Froumeaux still has upside, but has not proven much yet. True he looks good for a beginner, but he has'nt yet lit the world on fire either ...

One last curve ball : What about Gryazin ? He is real fast, albeit crash-prone. But as they say in circuit racing : Better to tame a wild, fast driver, than trying to improve a reliable, but slow driver ... It is time for him to show what he can do on the big stage and he would certainly brting money as well ...

Long story short, if I would be Malcolm/Rich, i would go for Mikkelsen or Paddon / Fourmeaux / Gryazin. Plus a 4th car for Greensmith if he pays for it. A few cars may end up in ditches, but you'd have a way to prove that your product is worth it !

[er88]

Unfortunately for Mikkelsen, he was aiming to use this year to show he was a cut above the rest of wrc2/erc (like he did in 2017). He hasn't done that yet, either in terms of raw speed or results. He needs a big 2nd half of the year if he harbours hopes to become a paid wrc driver again.
I also think the fact he spent years in one the most dominant cars in WRC history in VW, and didn't get close to challenging Ogier, and then went to Hyundai and didn't get close to challenging Neuville, suggests he maybe can't get to tier 1 level with the competition now so high. However he would still be a good option for Msport next year, and considering they were prepared to dump £millions a year on one of the top 4 drivers, surely they can run a competitive 3 car team without just selecting those who bring the most money (eg Greensmith).

Lappi would have been the best choice for Msport, he doesn't have the same experience as Mikkelsen in the WRC and we haven't seen his full potential yet. But it's Malcolm's fault if Lappi goes back to Toyota (which looks very likely now). Lappi would've essentially driven for free this year for Msport, could've been involved in all the testing of the 22car etc, but instead Msport wanted him to bring budget. I find that very naive and shortsighted of Malcolm, that he thought he could attract one of the 4 top tier drivers, yet didn't retain Lappi as the next-best available fallback option.

I also agree with the post above, Gryazin could be an interesting choice for Msport at somepoint because he seemingly has lots of backing and is on the up (two factors which could sway Wilson).

Depending on the lineup they go for, it might not be a bad option next year running Loeb/ Meeke on one or two occasional events as well, to see if they can show the cars pace and give Fourmaux a proper speed reference. Plus they'd get decent publicity.

[mknight]

For Lappi it imho depends a bit on how much bad blood there is from last year.
His speed/results (and motivation) in first 3 rounds were good. After the corona "restart" in Estonia surely the Fiesta wasn't as competetive any more, but it also looked like Lappi kinda resigned and started to get beaten by Suninen. (In a way similar to his seemingly lack of motivation at Toyota after it was clear he was leaving in second half of 2018). On top of that he started to be a bit public in his comments on how MSport/Fiesta is not up to it. At Monza it looked like they were getting pretty tired of it.

For Mikkelsen his relations with MSport have been a bit of a mystery to me the last 4-5 years. He said he talked with them at end of 2016 and also before this year but somehow nothing ever happens. Before it might have been due to EVEN who refused to pay though. I don't think VW time is something that is a disadvantage now, he was inspeed close to Ogier on most rallies om 2016 and better than Latvala. Sure it was one of the reasons he fidnu get a seat at start of 2017, but after that year I:d say it was reasonably forgotten. Hyundai time is in a way similar. At start of 2020 for sure it made him unemployed, but after that watching Loeb still not manage to drive it on tarmac and leaving and Tanak using 1,5 year to approach former gravel speed + still beeing behind om tarmac it kind of all gets a different light. What IMO might matter this year is the "retirements" in Croatia and especially in Sardinia. In WRC2 you don't really always need top speed in most stages and can still win by minutes (like Lappi in Portugal). Trying to beat everyone in first few stages and crashing certainly doesn't look good when he should be the "safe" choice.

Gryazin is surely an interesting driver. 2 years ago he was the biggest hit...then came the total disaster seasons with Hyundai and he was almost forgotten...and a few rallies later with Polo he's up again. Imo he needs to show some move to consistency, like in Liepaja, over a few rallies. Main problem with him is that MSport already has a young "fast" driver - Fourmaux. A lineup of Fourmaux+Gryazin and Greensmith is just too much of a combined risk smelling disasters like this years Monte. Don't think Ford wants much of that with new car next season. Gryazin+Fourmaux+Lappi or Mikkelsen might be interesting, but not sure how realistic that is.


Guys bringing up Meeke for anything but a rally or two really need to have a look on his 2018 season. Being in the clearly fastest car he managed to loose them the manu championship, get a single podium and finish behind Mikkelsen and Evans in points with 3 more starts than both of them. Adding to that he has not driven a rally for 1,5 years and is by far the oldest of the drivers mentioned here.

[AnttiL]

When you talk about Paddon, remember that he's a devoted Hyundai guy. He won't drive for other brands. Finland and Australia 2019 were just attempts to show off Adamo that he is still fast, and even they were sponsored by Hyundai NZ!

I have said this before, but I repeat it. M-Sport wanted one of the "big four" because they want to be able to win a championship, and that's a goal they're willing to invest in. But with a driver like Mikkelsen, Lappi, or anyone else still available, they are not secured to get it against Hyundai and Toyota crews.

Right now there's no point paying anyone anything, because let's be honest, they won't win the title. Just take anyone who is willing to bring budget in. And maybe they have accepted the situation and started saying their current drivers are actually good enough.

Would be fun to see Gryazin in top class.

Also remember that next year cars are not the same as this year cars. They will be very different to drive, maybe closer to current R5 cars with more power.

[mknight]

Who can fight for the title depends a lot on the car.
How many people actually seriously believed Evans would be able to fight for title at the end of 2019? Basically nobody except maybe some british jurnos. He was a "second best" driver, behind "big 3" and had a disastrous 2018 when he was nowhere while Ogier won the title right behind him.

He almost did it and now he suddenly is "big four".

That totally doesn't mean anyone who drove Toyota in 2020 could fight for title. (Rovanpera didn't, Katsuta didn't).

So it does matter who you put in the car, a lot. Sure the chance might be lower than with "big 4", but it's still bigger than with "pay"/young drivers only.

[MartijnS]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wXX5zWEAMxWou?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[Lancia Stratos]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/m-sport-ford-unveils-puma-rally1-car-first-pictures/

[EstWRC]

looks so high in tarmac trim but of course, just promo pics

[Ha3aP]

aaaa craaaaaap (((

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wXYo2WQAAzaon?format=jpg&name=4096x4096
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wXZsCXMAEp4sM?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wbL1SX0AImrwR?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

[Sulland]

Ahh, so the Puma rumours were actually true.
Lets see if that is a good choice, and if other classes will adopt that platform.

[AnttiL]

Ahh, so the Puma rumours were actually true.
Lets see if that is a good choice, and if other classes will adopt that platform.

It's not possible. All other classes are based on a road car. Rally1 can be built on tubular frame and scaled down, I believe Puma wouldn't fit to the measures otherwise. This is exactly what FIA made these rules for.

[Arnold Triyudho Wardono]

NGL, the Puma is better looking in Rally1 form.

Sent from my M2010J19CG using Tapatalk

[EstWRC]

Great sound ! https://twitter.com/msportltd/status/1413057583586414596?s=21

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wzNAGXoAA25m0?format=jpg&name=medium

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wzNAGXoAA25m0?format=jpg&name=medium

Easily the car's best angle. It also looks like a 3-door even though its not, which gives a nice neat side view.

Not as pretty as the Fiesta at the front and not sure the front will be as aero with the bigger area.

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/07/08/aero-details-of-the-new-ford-puma-rally1-wrc-prototype/

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wtRerXEAEwiq_?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wtRerWQAM3Huu?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wwnXpWYAE9Zhy?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5wwnXoWQAUi71o?format=jpg&name=large



https://twitter.com/RallyingUK

[bomber21]

It is a Puma!!!

[mmm]

damn, its the same fiesta prototype with puma headlights and taillights fitted on it... guess we will have to wait more to see the real rally1 car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://youtu.be/QnPx4GhOeCs

[HKSjbg]

damn, its the same fiesta prototype with puma headlights and taillights fitted on it... guess we will have to wait more to see the real rally1 car.

What do you mean? These are spaceframe cars now so it is scaled down to be better size, proportions, wheelbase etc. than the ‘base car’ monocoque would have been (if you can even call it a base car now). It won’t come out some months later looking more Puma-ey, this is it

[macebig]

It's very clearly repurposed Fiesta WRC 17 body panels. The final car will be different.

[AnttiL]

While it's possible they still change things before the car is ready, I don't think they have any obligation to make the car look any more than a real Puma. The front and rear lights will be enough.

[AnttiL]

Easily the car's best angle. It also looks like a 3-door even though its not

This car has only three doors for sure.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This car has only three doors for sure.

I know, I meant the (road) Puma is not 3-door.

Do M-Sport Ford have to make the Rally1 Puma have 5-doors or can they do what they like and still say its a Puma ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E5xVm5KXIAcnnCx?format=jpg&name=medium

BTW, here's a reminder of what the real Ford Puma looks like...

https://www.autocar.co.uk/sites/autocar.co.uk/files/styles/gallery_slide/public/1-ford_puma-st-2021-road-test-review-hero-front.jpg?itok=b6uHDUM5

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Goodwood clip
https://twitter.com/LEH_1989/status/1413126865267527680?s=20

[Norm75]

What do you mean? These are spaceframe cars now so it is scaled down to be better size, proportions, wheelbase etc. than the ‘base car’ monocoque would have been (if you can even call it a base car now). It won’t come out some months later looking more Puma-ey, this is it
Yes looking at the side rear windows they are the same shape as fiesta, only the blue line of the decals is tapered down over the actual window to make it look puma shaped.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Better Goodwood clip:
https://twitter.com/GoodwoodRRC/status/1413240976479502341?s=20

[EstWRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E51pRzDWYAMFT0U?format=jpg&name=large

[mknight]

The front splitter does seem longer as also Luis on WRCwings says. But hard to say if it's optical illusion because it's missing all the fences and diveplanes above it.
But as also Luis says it would be logical to make it longer for more downforce since even without a big diffuser in the back there is still a huge wing , so have to balance it somehow.

Another thing is that there seems to be a lot more space around the wheels, especially at the front. (quick picture for comparison: https://www.ewrc-results.com/image/617196/ ). But I guess most people agree that the final design that will come out in 6 months will not be 100% exactly like this.

[wyler]

did u see also this?

https://www.facebook.com/MSportLtd/videos/318135216529003

[er88]

Guessing they aren't running the car in gravel trim and doing the rally stage??

[TypeR]

did u see also this?
https://www.facebook.com/MSportLtd/videos/318135216529003
Last seconds are on electric power..

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Guessing they aren't running the car in gravel trim and doing the rally stage??

Wilson was driving on the hill yesterday but Fourmaux is also going to drive it.

[EstWRC]

about drivers for next year...


I see nobody hasnt mentioned Sordo or Breen. We know that Hyundai has Tänak and Neuville, also Solberg, so for 3rd car the competition is between Solberg, Sordo and Breen. If they are sharing the 3rd car again, then there isnt rallies for them all. Adamo has also said in couple of interviews that he isnt sure he will continue with the sharing tactitcs next year.

Although i think you could rule Sordo out because he doesnt want to do whole season but didnt he say something else lately on dirtfish or somewhere?

If i would be Breen then i would definitely take the opportunity

[er88]

about drivers for next year...


I see nobody hasnt mentioned Sordo or Breen. We know that Hyundai has Tänak and Neuville, also Solberg, so for 3rd car the competition is between Solberg, Sordo and Breen. If they are sharing the 3rd car again, then there isnt rallies for them all. Adamo has also said in couple of interviews that he isnt sure he will continue with the sharing tactitcs next year.

Although i think you could rule Sordo out because he doesnt want to do whole season but didnt he say something else lately on dirtfish or somewhere?

If i would be Breen then i would definitely take the opportunityYeah Breen needs a full season now, he can't just keep doing the fast rallies. If I was him I would be speaking to Malcolm to see what's possible. We still haven't seen the best of him.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish on the Puma at Goodwood:

Basically, it’s the front end of a Puma bolted to the rear of M-Sport’s test car. What’s coming at the actual unveil will be different from the b-pillar backwards. Not massively different, but different. That’s when it’s all Puma.

[mknight]

Breen still has not done a decent result on anything than a fast gravel/snow rally, in Hyundai he only had two opportunities so far (2019 GB and Croatia this year) one more coming in near future (Ypres).
So he might come into consideration after Ypres.

What I remember is that Malcolm seemed quite negative about employing Breen at the end of 2018 when he was dropped by Citroen and Malcolm was pressed on that during some public meeting. Hard to read Malcolm, but Breen did not get a spot at MSport at that time.


I think Adamo's comments about maybe not sharing 3rd car were based on the idea that Solberg in 3rd car will do well on all rallies.
Safari probably calmed those thoughts a bit for the time being.

[er88]

Yeah Malcolm has the problem now that it seems he will have to sign a driver he seemingly doesn't rate fully.

Lappi - was let go because he couldn't pay, which wouldn't have happened if MW was fully convinced by him. Now he's looks set to join Toyota instead.

Breen - drove Fiestas for years, worked his way through Swrc and ERC etc, but never really seemed like an option Msport considered to give a full wrc drive to.

Mikkelsen - could've been signed at any point during the last few years, but even with some budget it wasn't enough to secure a drive this year at Msport. When MW was asked about signing him, he blew the question off and said he wanted a top 4 driver but would "keep an eye" on wrc2 this year....

Ostberg - bad blood there. A non starter unless Ostberg wants to fully fund a drive there again (beyond unlikely now).

Meeke - too old for a typical Msport signing. Again, as a young british driver Malcolm didn't give him one single opportunity, or even when Meeke became a proven event winner and a driver with top speed.

Paddon - could've been picked up by Msport at any point in the last few years. Only chance he "would've" got was in Finland, which was because Paddon found backing. Been out the wrc picture for too long now I feel, whereas other drivers are competing in wrc2/erc.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Puma Hybrid explained
https://youtu.be/DEY9W65LsZU

[er88]

Joke of an operation if they stick with their current driver lineup. All this publicity and backing from Ford is all well and good, but if their drivers are many minutes of the pace next year then.....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@MSportLtd
It’s a huge privilege to have CEO & President of Ford Motor Company, Jim Farley, unveiling the all-new M-Sport Ford Puma #Hybrid Rally1 on its public debut here at @fosgoodwood to both Goodwood and Worldwide fans. This truly is a key moment in Ford’s rally history proving that electrification can be brought to the most prestigious form of motorsport.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E58CCljWYAEIPTE?format=jpg&name=large

[AndyRAC]

Since when has rallying been the most prestigious form of motorsport? And can only attract 3 manufacturers..... Don't you just love PR??

[macebig]

Don't think a Ford CEO has appeared in WRC related presentations since Nasser. Significant gesture.

[denkimi]

Yeah Malcolm has the problem now that it seems he will have to sign a driver he seemingly doesn't rate fully.

Lappi - was let go because he couldn't pay, which wouldn't have happened if MW was fully convinced by him. Now he's looks set to join Toyota instead.

Breen - drove Fiestas for years, worked his way through Swrc and ERC etc, but never really seemed like an option Msport considered to give a full wrc drive to.

Mikkelsen - could've been signed at any point during the last few years, but even with some budget it wasn't enough to secure a drive this year at Msport. When MW was asked about signing him, he blew the question off and said he wanted a top 4 driver but would "keep an eye" on wrc2 this year....

Ostberg - bad blood there. A non starter unless Ostberg wants to fully fund a drive there again (beyond unlikely now).

Meeke - too old for a typical Msport signing. Again, as a young british driver Malcolm didn't give him one single opportunity, or even when Meeke became a proven event winner and a driver with top speed.

Paddon - could've been picked up by Msport at any point in the last few years. Only chance he "would've" got was in Finland, which was because Paddon found backing. Been out the wrc picture for too long now I feel, whereas other drivers are competing in wrc2/erc.
there are no drivers available who could win the championship.

so what he needs are drivers who could win a rally, and then meeke would be my first choice.

[bomber21]

Nice to see Ford so involved!!

Now give some money and bring a top driver to the team!!!!

[Andre Oliveira]

Don't think a Ford CEO has appeared in WRC related presentations since Nasser. Significant gesture.

The global head of Ford Performance, Dave Pericak, in Monte-Carlo 2017.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/news-archive/wrc/ford-considers-wrc-future/

[macebig]

"Ford CEO" as in the head of the table at FoMoCo. Not the Racing division guys. Whittaker, Capito, Quinn, Pericak and Rushbrook have appeared in countless WRC related events throughout their reigns as Ford Motorsport/Racing/Team RS/Performance head honchos.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6AWWZ3XEAAvS5s?format=jpg&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E6AWWZ2XMAQ6L5G?format=jpg&name=large

[doubled1978]

there are no drivers available who could win the championship.

so what he needs are drivers who could win a rally, and then meeke would be my first choice.

Yeah I agree, while I doubt it will happen, Meeke is one of the few that could steal a win or two if the car is good enough. He probably wouldn’t be too expensive either.
MSport do need a driver who, if the opportunity presents itself, through road position or attrition, can take advantage and win.

[skarderud]

Yes, Meeke could be both fast and cheap, but history tells that he is quite expensive for the team.
Maybe he can win 1 or 2 rallies if everything works perfect and others gets trouble, but most other top 10 drivers can do the same, without crashing all the other rallies.

I like Meeke, both spectacular and nice guy, but maybe som others should have a go.

Most top drivers can win a rally, if car is good and others got trouble.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[Sulland]

I am still amazed Malcolm did not pick up Oliver Solberg while he had the chance.

[mknight]

Yeah I agree, while I doubt it will happen, Meeke is one of the few that could steal a win or two if the car is good enough. He probably wouldn’t be too expensive either.
MSport do need a driver who, if the opportunity presents itself, through road position or attrition, can take advantage and win.

Meeke would be expensive in car repairs. Didn't win any rallies in the fastest car in 2019 either.


I am still amazed Malcolm did not pick up Oliver Solberg while he had the chance.
At this moment Fourmaux is not a worse driver than Solberg. Likely cheaper too.

[djip]

I am still amazed Malcolm did not pick up Oliver Solberg while he had the chance.

Malcolm always plays the long game : signing long term deal very early on to (almost) unknown drivers. sometime it works, sometimes not ...
Solberg already had a lot of hype way befoer he got his drivers licence - so did Rovanpera back then.

[Andre Oliveira]

FFSA and Red Bull behind Fourmaux means a lot too.

[skarderud]

Fourmaux is a good choice, Mikkelsen can also bring some RB money, maybe thats your lineup.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[er88]

I am still amazed Malcolm did not pick up Oliver Solberg while he had the chance.This actually shocked me at the time, but Malcolm was caught up in other interests unfortunately..........

[mknight]

Malcolm always plays the long game : signing long term deal very early on to (almost) unknown drivers. sometime it works, sometimes not ...
Solberg already had a lot of hype way befoer he got his drivers licence - so did Rovanpera back then.

Agree.
Malcolm is about maximizing profit. Pick a young/unknown driver that drives for free or has funding and try to raise him to get paid (and get %).

As you mentioned Solberg or Rovanpera had so much hype they didn't need to go for terms like that.

[AnttiL]

Could also be that M-Sport didn't have a budget available for young talents after breaking the bank with Ogier (and investing heavily in Tänak and Evans). Or maybe both Rovanperä and Solberg decided to go for more competitive teams.

[Paul Hudson]

Mikkelsen has just sold his house in Norway, so should have a few Million to buy a drive.

[Mirek]

Mikkelsen has just sold his house in Norway, so should have a few Million to buy a drive.

That would be rather stupid thing to do.

[seb_sh]

From the drivers that are left I think the only one who could fight for the driver's championship would be Mikkelsen. If he clicks with the car I think he has the speed on all rallies to fight at the top and challenge, has enough experience and is still hungry. No one else out of the available drivers ticks all the boxes in my opinion. So if you want to go for the drivers title a good lineup could be Mikkelsen-Fourmaux-Greensmith, assuming Greensmith continues to bring budget.

[pantealex]

We only have 3 Teams but not enough fast drivers for those 3. :)

Luckily we don´t have 5-6 different teams ;)

[denkimi]

From the drivers that are left I think the only one who could fight for the driver's championship would be Mikkelsen. If he clicks with the car I think he has the speed on all rallies to fight at the top and challenge, has enough experience and is still hungry. No one else out of the available drivers ticks all the boxes in my opinion. So if you want to go for the drivers title a good lineup could be Mikkelsen-Fourmaux-Greensmith, assuming Greensmith continues to bring budget.
No.

He wasn't fast enough to bring the fight to ogier when he was in the VW, and he wasn't fast enough to bring the fight to neuville when he was in the Hyundai.

He could be fast enough to score a freak win when he has a good starting position though.

[AndyRAC]

FFSA and Red Bull behind Fourmaux means a lot too.


I doubt the Red Bull personal sponsorship is particularly big in money terms; he's hardly one of their major stars (well not yet). A coveted RB helmet and other support, rather than budget.

[the sniper]

I doubt the Red Bull personal sponsorship is particularly big in money terms; he's hardly one of their major stars (well not yet). A coveted RB helmet and other support, rather than budget.

I could imagine it's a little bit more than most of the 'Red Bull Athletes', just because of how prominent it is compared to all those who seem to only have the helmet and free drinks supply deal, but yeah, probably not much more. Maybe Red Bull France have just allocated a greater share of their budget towards him, but it's still only a domestic Red Bull France deal? It'd be interesting to know the terms of how these Red Bull deals work. Elfyn Evans has been on one for years, even when he was doing BRC in 2016 in the Dmack car and presumably not making much money out of it, but he still only wore a Red Bull Cap to show his association.

[skarderud]

No.

He wasn't fast enough to bring the fight to ogier when he was in the VW, and he wasn't fast enough to bring the fight to neuville when he was in the Hyundai.

He could be fast enough to score a freak win when he has a good starting position though.Well, he actually beats ogier on pure speed, Australia comes to mind.

Hyundai was crap, not even master Loeb chould handle that piece of shit.

Why Mikkelsen didn't win in the Hyundai is quite obviuos, isn't it?

Mikkelsen and Fourmaux is a good pairing that can do top results if the car is top notch.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[cali]

Well, he actually beats ogier on pure speed, Australia comes to mind.

Hyundai was crap, not even master Loeb chould handle that piece of shit.

Why Mikkelsen didn't win in the Hyundai is quite obviuos, isn't it?

Mikkelsen and Fourmaux is a good pairing that can do top results if the car is top notch.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkAnd still Neuville and Tänak are winning rallies with i20. Also Mikkelsen's WRC2 campaign isn't very promising so far and far from domination

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[focus206]

Well, he actually beats ogier on pure speed, Australia comes to mind.

Hyundai was crap, not even master Loeb chould handle that piece of shit.

Why Mikkelsen didn't win in the Hyundai is quite obviuos, isn't it?

Mikkelsen and Fourmaux is a good pairing that can do top results if the car is top notch.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

A piece of crap car that won 2 manufacturer titles. The problem of Hyundai is reliability, not speed. And Mikkelsen never showed speed on a Hyundai.
Just because he beat Ogier once or twice on speed in VW days, doesn't mean he's faster than him.
Mikkelsen is not world champion material. We'll see if he'll even manage to win WRC2 title or ERC.

[er88]

Well, he actually beats ogier on pure speed, Australia comes to mind.

Hyundai was crap, not even master Loeb chould handle that piece of shit.

Why Mikkelsen didn't win in the Hyundai is quite obviuos, isn't it?

Mikkelsen and Fourmaux is a good pairing that can do top results if the car is top notch.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via TapatalkHe had 3yrs at VW (with little competition to VW in the championship compared to when the 2017 cars were introduced), and ONLY managed to beat Seb Ogier to a rally win once on pure speed? Ogier also spent a year running 1st on the road for TWO days iirc.

He spent two years at Hyundai and didn't win a rally, and couldn't get near Neuville in general speed, or across a whole championship.

And as has been said, he was meant to use this year to dominate every rally he entered and prove he is a cut above the likes of Breen/ Ostberg/ Lappi/ Gryazin/ Solberg/ Luky etc etc, but so far hasn't had great results or great speed. Certainly been half a year that hasn't enhanced his reputation.

To win the championship you need to have a similar speed to the big 4 across a whole year, and be clever/not make more than 1 or 2 mistakes. There's no evidence to suggest Mikkelsen is at that level.

However having said all that, I still think behind Lappi, Mikkelsen is the next best option for Msport and they should sign him. Especially if he can also bring some budget. If the Msport car is really good, Mikkelsen could challenge for podiums and hopefully fight for wins on a few events, and he would do a vastly better job compared to Greensmith anyway. Msport should have two seats available next to Fourmaux, let Greensmith pay for a 4th car. Hard to read what Malcolm will do though.

[RS]

A Mikelssen-Formaux-Greensmith lineup for all rounds would be an upgrade on what MSport have this year IMO.

[cali]

A Mikelssen-Formaux-Greensmith lineup for all rounds would be an upgrade on what MSport have this year IMO.Sure. Just that someone with norwegian glasses has been twisting the facts quite heavily here.

He still remains an option for M-Sport but recent performances and results are quite worrysome. Also it's quite funny that people bring up some decade old results as this would be very relevant today.

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[seb_sh]

Regarding Mikkelsen there are good arguments brought up and it's correct to say he has never been in the fight for a title and his current WRC2 performances are not exactly helping him show his superiority. Regarding his stint at VW he was going up against a top performing Ogier and was gradually getting closer, in 2016 he beat Latvala. His Hyundai stint was not great but he was one in a long list of drivers that have struggled to get the best out of that car, even Tanak sometimes had rallies where he couldn't extract the speed. However i think the point still stands that out of what is available he has the best potential to fight for a title and that adding him to the lineup would be a big improvement for MSport.

[Andre Oliveira]

As M-Sport fan i would prefer Lappi / Fourmaux / Greensmith. As rally fan i would prefer Meeke / Mikkelsen / Fourmaux.

[Eli]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/ford-steps-up-wrc-support-through-puma-development/6630154/

As we heard before, they helped with the development but at least for the moment, there's no word on full time return.

"Ford has stepped up its support of M-Sport’s World Rally Championship programme through the development of the all-new 2022 hybrid Puma, according to Ford Performance boss Mark Rushbrook."

"The blue oval’s interest in WRC has heightened following the introduction of new hybrid Rally1 regulations in 2022, which has resulted in more input into M-Sport’s plans for rallying’s new era.

Last week M-Sport became the first team to officially launch its new Rally1 weapon with the unveiling of its all-new Puma at the Goodwood Festival of Speed. The launch signified Ford’s renewed interest in the sport with its global CEO Jim Farley and Rushbrook in attendance.

Speaking to Autosport, Rushbrook confirmed that Ford has been heavily involved in the development of the Puma, with its engineers assisting with its knowledge of hybrid technology and aerodynamics.

“Certainly we have increased our support with the development of the new car and being as engaged as we are,” Rushbrook told Autosport.

“M-Sport are great partners and always have been. Like we do in any form of motorsport we try to complement each other with our partners.

“M-Sport has always been very good at developing new cars and we expect the same with this case.

“But with the new technology with hybrid we are able to bring in some of our calibration engineers to help with the software strategy, and also aerodynamics and vehicle dynamics simulation are other areas we can contribute to the new car, and we have always had a good relationship on the powertrain and all of that continues.”

M-Sport has been effectively running a semi-works effort in the WRC since 2013 with Ford an active partner and sponsor, but the operation is not a full factory effort compared to rivals Toyota and Hyundai."

"ushbrook admitted that the WRC’s new future has piqued interest at Ford but stopped short of saying that the brand would return as a full factory team in the near future.

“Absolutely [we are excited], we participate in the FIA technical working groups and we were part of that in terms of developing these new regulations along with the other manufactures,” he said.

“We think it is an exciting change for the sport and we expect the fans to be engaged with it as well as they start to see the performance and the technology in the cars.

When asked if there was chance Ford could return as a full works effort, he added: “That is probably not something I would comment on.”

Rushbrook also confirmed that the decision to switch from the Fiesta body to the Puma was down to Ford and its strategy to promote its new product through the WRC.

The development car had been running a Fiesta shell during M-Sport’s recent tests of its 2022 machine earlier this year.

“It [the Ford Puma] is a new product for us and an important part of the future cycle plan and we wanted to showcase that especially with the hybrid technology,” said Rushbrook.

The new Puma made its full public debut last weekend with M-Sport’s current WRC driver Adrien Fourmaux and test driver Matthew Wilson completing demonstration runs up the Goodwood hillclimb course."

[mknight]

Sounds like the same old PR talk. "Ford is supporting us so much"...but 2/3 of our drivers pay for the drive, the last doesn't get a salary and we never even use all testdays.

All the talk whether Lappi or Mikkelsen is better choice becomes pointless if they keep going with similar setup as this year.

Again this year has shown it's hard to tell how good the current drivers really are when there is nobody to compare with.
Did Greensmith really improve from Croatia on or is it "just" the new engine? How good is Fourmaux? Wilson claims the car is podium fast (and therefore drivers are the problem). Last year there was Lappi for some comparison, this year there is nobody as Suninen is anything but stable.

I'd guess that one of the reasons nobody of the "top 4" signed with MSport is that they aren't really sure what level they are. (new car, new possibilities yes, but you still need technical skill level within the team, Louriaux leaving prbly didn't help).

[AndyRAC]

Sounds familiar; continued, and maybe improved support, but not the 'kitchen sink'. If they require any pay drivers, then it's not a full factory effort! What will it take for them to fully back M-Sport??

[er88]

I'd guess that one of the reasons nobody of the "top 4" signed with MSport is that they aren't really sure what level they are. (new car, new possibilities yes, but you still need technical skill level within the team, Louriaux leaving prbly didn't help).

Yep. Plus none of the top 4 drivers would've been able to test the Ford until December, whereas Tanak/ Neuville/ Evans/ (maybe) Ogier will be testing the Hyundai and Toyota throughout the rest of this year.

That's why I can't understand Malcolm didnt sign up a proven driver this year like Lappi/ mikkelsen etc to provide a benchmark for Fourmaux/ Greensmith, and also to develop the 22 car so they have a better driver ready to hit the ground running at the start of next year.

[the sniper]

I wonder how much smoke and mirrors there'll be, with what could look like extra financial support from Ford actually being M-Sport just being in a better financial position itself this year, with the rebound in sales, service and support to the Rally 2, 3 and 4 categories.

[mknight]

This year I can partly understand it since it's last year of the current car and specially at start of the season it wasn't clear how much of MSport business (other rally classes) will run.

It cost them any chance of getting the top 4 ( personally I was really expecting Tanak to go there).

But if it goes again like this lineup next year, it sounds like another season with 2 teams and "also participated".


I totally don't agree with what for example AntiiL says...that if you can't get "top 4"/championship challenger it doesn't matter who you get.

2019/2020 vs 2021 shows this. 2019 they had Evans who sometimes could fight for wins (Corsica/GB), 2020 Lappi did that in Monza. 2021... nothing, not a single rally with real podium chance.

As mentioned before until 2020 Evans was a perfect example of "2nd best" that never would be able to fight for championship. But he was still a WRC winner with numerous podium finishes, not someone that never was near podium and is doing one of his first WRC rallies.

[er88]

Been reported on here before, but here's an article.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-wouldnt-be-disappointed-with-current-line-up-in-2022/

[seb_sh]

Been reported on here before, but here's an article.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-wouldnt-be-disappointed-with-current-line-up-in-2022/

Don't like the sound of that to be honest, Fourmaux may be a future star (probably at another team like Neuville, Tanak and Evans before him) and Greensmith has improved but still off the pace, Suninen is still very inconsistent... To not have at least one experienced driver doesn't look good. They can do the PR talk as much as they want, the fact that they are barely doing any pre-event testing is the biggest "crime" against their performance in my opinion, no matter how fast the car is next year if they continue like this they can only hope for some out of the ordinary rallies to get some surprise results.

[AnttiL]

I totally don't agree with what for example AntiiL says...that if you can't get "top 4"/championship challenger it doesn't matter who you get.

2019/2020 vs 2021 shows this. 2019 they had Evans who sometimes could fight for wins (Corsica/GB), 2020 Lappi did that in Monza. 2021... nothing, not a single rally with real podium chance.

As mentioned before until 2020 Evans was a perfect example of "2nd best" that never would be able to fight for championship. But he was still a WRC winner with numerous podium finishes, not someone that never was near podium and is doing one of his first WRC rallies.

Based on Millener's recent comments, I was right.

There's no marketing value in "sometimes fighting for wins". There might be some in winning single rallies, if championship is not possible. Otherwise you're as good with someone who just brings budget.

Just to clarify, this is not my personal opinion, I would want to see drivers who can actually drive at M-Sport, but I'm trying to think from the position of M-Sport. It's raw business for them.

[mknight]

Based on Millener's recent comments, I was right.

There's no marketing value in "sometimes fighting for wins". There might be some in winning single rallies, if championship is not possible. Otherwise you're as good with someone who just brings budget.



But that's a huge difference! Winning single rallies or even getting on podiums vs 5th+ in case enough people retire.

What really made me smile in Milleners comments:
(talking about current lineup):
“But we need to see speed and consistency and development, and I think they’re all doing that in their own separate ways.”

Totally lines up with what he said about Suninen after Sardinia.

[djip]

I think (i) Millener is not in a rush, now haat other teams have lockep up their drivers. Only the half Toyota seat is available and any driver would probably prefer to get this one than opne at MSport, considering that Ogier will slow down even further or maybe call it quits after 2022 ... So in essence, all the remaining drivers will be begging for the +MSport seat(s) come december, so no rush ...

On another topic, I am curious of what Latvala will do, his heart probably calling for a (fast) fellow finn (Lappi, Sunninen) while his brain may have him lean towards a Mr.consistency fro the manufacturers champiosnhip, aka Sordo, Ostberg, Mikkelsen ... (Ogier being part of both categories as we know)

[er88]

Lappi makes sense for Toyota having already been there, plus the events like Sweden/ Estonia/ Finland (if it's on the 22 calendar) will be events Ogier will not do (and fast rallies are some of Lappi's strongest events). Sordo makes no sense for this reason. Breen could be a decent option too, if Hyundai go with a Sordo/ Solberg car share.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/who-are-the-2022-options-left-available-to-m-sport

[AnttiL]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/who-are-the-2022-options-left-available-to-m-sport

I can only assume David Evans lurks at the forum :D

[mknight]

It's quite normal that Dirtfish writes on same topic we talk about a few days beforehand. I'd say it's a combination of reading this and us typically talking about the most pressing topics.


Breen could indeed become available since Solberg is good on same type of events. At the same time he is more risky choice than Lappi or Mikkelsen since he has never really had good result on other types of rallies and almost never drives them either (at least in WRC). Most importantly Malcolm never really seemed interested in him in any way. But it's hard to read Malcolm.

What kind of surprised me is that Dirtfish didn't even mention Gryazin.
Fourmaux+Lappi/Mikkelsen + Gryazin looks interesting. Malcolms authority might teach him to stay on the road and he has some money. But Fourmaux+Gryazin+Greensmith on the other hand might be both expensive and very unstable on results.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

At least David Evans also added some history and context of their previous drivers and the one-off outlay on Ogier when he became available.

But now there's no guaranteed rally winner available and their budget is tight after the loss of R5 car sales in the pandemic. Therefore it seems clear that any 2022 driver must bring some sponsor support.

[seb_sh]

I can only assume David Evans lurks at the forum :D

he has thick skin if he does

[Got Mail]

Bottas could be a decent option for M-Sport.

[masa90]

Yeah no. The car is already bad enough, lets atleast have proper rallydrivers.

[seb_sh]

doesn't matter who drives if the engine overheats after 3 stages

[Tauri_J]

Bottas could be a decent option for M-Sport.

As a 2nd driver why not lol

[trykmann]

Greensmith seems to be quite optimistic about season 2022:

“My immediate focus is on continuing the upward trajectory – I need to maintain this over the next three or four rallies and we’ll see where we are. If we continue like this, I don’t see why we shouldn’t be in a World Rally Car on merit. I just need to focus on keeping these improvements, take a few stage wins and then, by the end of the year, we could be fighting for a podium.”

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/greensmith-looking-at-greece-for-big-push/

[cali]

Greensmith seems to be quite optimistic about season 2022:

“My immediate focus is on continuing the upward trajectory – I need to maintain this over the next three or four rallies and we’ll see where we are. If we continue like this, I don’t see why we shouldn’t be in a World Rally Car on merit. I just need to focus on keeping these improvements, take a few stage wins and then, by the end of the year, we could be fighting for a podium.”

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/greensmith-looking-at-greece-for-big-push/Well he's been reading Colin Clark's ratings too much I guess :D based on that alone he's championship contender

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[trykmann]

Well he's been reading Colin Clark's ratings too much I guess :D based on that alone he's championship contender

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

Ammu pole niimoodi naernud :D

That was a good one!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is Suninen doing enough ?

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/is-suninen-doing-enough-to-retain-his-m-sport-seat/

[M3 Jambo]

Fourmaux staking a claim for the second WRC seat alongside Fergus in Finland


https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/fourmaux-pushing-for-finland-m-sport-world-rally-car-drive/

[AnttiL]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/suninen-shuts-door-on-disappointing-estonia-outing/

[M3 Jambo]

He definitely needs to find a big performance from somewhere, the pressure is mounting and opportunities diminishing.

[AnttiL]

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/suninen-shuts-door-on-disappointing-estonia-outing/

Millener's comments are interesting, with a different tone than David Evans suggests...

“It’s fair to say this wasn’t the result or performance we were hoping for after Safari Rally Kenya,” said Millener, “Before the start we would have been happy to have one car in the top six, but we all know it could have been better.”
“It was frustrating for Gus and Teemu that engine-related issues meant they weren’t part of the fight,” added Millener. “Despite the setbacks, they both gave everything and got lots of important kilometres under their belts, which is what we always ask of them.”

[Andre Oliveira]

Breen?

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/breen-kuenftig-bei-m-sport-46892/

[EstWRC]

about drivers for next year...


I see nobody hasnt mentioned Sordo or Breen. We know that Hyundai has Tänak and Neuville, also Solberg, so for 3rd car the competition is between Solberg, Sordo and Breen. If they are sharing the 3rd car again, then there isnt rallies for them all. Adamo has also said in couple of interviews that he isnt sure he will continue with the sharing tactitcs next year.

Although i think you could rule Sordo out because he doesnt want to do whole season but didnt he say something else lately on dirtfish or somewhere?

If i would be Breen then i would definitely take the opportunity


Breen?

https://www.rallye-magazin.de/wrc/artikel/breen-kuenftig-bei-m-sport-46892/


;)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's strange that Breen hasnt ever been strongly linked to M-Sport despite his very early days with their Fiesta ST & S2000.

I spoke to him at Rally GB in 2015 and said I hope you get a drive next year and hopefully in a Ford and he looked totally blank like it was something offensive. I wonder did he have a falling out with them ?

[er88]

Breen makes sense for Msport. He deserves a full season, in fact two full years before we can properly judge where his peak actually is. He's also a driver who doesn't have too many major shunts, which is a good reflection on his mentality because he has effectively been driving for his career every time he does a rally in the i20.

If I was Malcolm, I would give Breen and Fourmaux 2yr contracts. Give them the security and the confidence needed (look what happened to Evans after Toyota secured his future), and it also protects Msport from losing either for free at the end of next year if they have a very impressive year.

Fourmaux brings backing too and Breen wouldn't be too expensive (especially compared to the salary one of the big 4 wouldve wanted), so it could hopefully mean they might be able to run a proper 3rd driver ( rather than just Greensmith fully paying for a 3rd car, instead of a 4th car).

[AnttiL]

It's strange that Breen hasnt ever been strongly linked to M-Sport despite his very early days with their Fiesta ST & S2000.

I spoke to him at Rally GB in 2015 and said I hope you get a drive next year and hopefully in a Ford and he looked totally blank like it was something offensive. I wonder did he have a falling out with them ?

I think Fiesta was lagging behind in development by that time, similarly to current one now.

Difficult to say if Rallye-Magazin has just read discussions from this forum or David Evans's speculations or if they actually know something?

Having Breen as main driver and then shuffling Suninen, Fourmaux and Greensmith in the two remaining cars? Or Greensmith driving "fourth car" with own livery? Or Suninen dropping out to WRC2? What does Mikkelsen do?

[seb_sh]

So: Mikkelsen Breen Formaux full time; Greensmith payed 4th car (does he still have budget behind him?); Suninen to WRC2 ? That would not look bad at all.

[skarderud]

Apparently, Breen is close to deal with M-sport 2022.

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[mknight]

I find it very strange anyone would sign Breen before he gets a decent result on anything else than a fast loose surface rally. So earliest after Ypres.
But stranger things have happened.

[dupanton]

I think Breen has showed most of all drivers this season that would deserve a full time WRC drive.
I would choose him or Lappi (giving that the big 4 are not available)

[mknight]

I think Breen has showed most of all drivers this season that would deserve a full time WRC drive.
I would choose him or Lappi (giving that the big 4 are not available)

I wonder what makes you think that (deserving full time WRC drive).

In Citroen in the past he had great results on some fast loose surface rallies, meh everywhere else. Especially on tarmac (when C3 was good on it 2017-2018), it was kind of strange.
In i20 he has good results on fast loose surface rallies, and bad result on the only different round he has driven so far (Croatia). Latest he confirmed this in Estonia by doing well on fast gravel rally where he did well last year.

So I don't get the implication "good on fast loose surface rallies" => should be good elsewhere.

Comparatively few people will automatically expect Sordo to be great in Finland/Estonia, based on him being good in Sardinia or Portugal. The difference is that in Sordo's case he has driven those other rallies lots of times, while Breen has driven other types of rallies only few times. Therefore Ypres should be very important for him, specially since he has driven a test rally in Belgia in the WRC car last year and also did drive there earlier in R5 Polo.

----------------

Anyway it seems this "Breen to MSport" is based on people asking Malcolm if he is of interest and Malcolm saying he is one of the drivers on a list they consider. That is perfectly normal at this stage and correct line of thinking by MSport. Actually signing Breen at this very point would have been something else and a bit weird, which is why I reacted to it.

If he does very well in Ypres (faster than any of the other 5 Toyota/Hyundai), MSport might considered signing him "before" Hyundai to "steal" him. Interestingly Solbergs and maybe even Huttunens performance will also play a role.
If Solberg does very well Hyundai will be less interested in Breen (so MSport doesn't need to hurry to sign him).
If Solberg does bad and Breen bad there is no hurry for anyone.

MSport said at one point they would want to get a driver early to drive the car and adapt as soon as possible. But the only driver really available for that is Lappi, and it seems he is signed at Toyota (most notably cause he didn't come to Estonia). Suninen is off course also available, but MSport interest in him has faded. Breen is earliest available after Finland (so mid October), maybe later depending on how his contract with Hyundai goes. After Safari and UK+Chile cancellations Mikkelsen isn't available before end of October or later either.

As a side note there are news saying MSport wants to run 2 cars next year........so in the end it might end with Fourmaux+Greensmith only.

[AnttiL]

I agree that Breen has been a bit disappointing on other WRC drives than in Finland, Sweden and Estonia. And in three last years, he hasn't had many starts elsewhere. Wales and Croatia were not really impressive.

If you look at Breen's stage win list, his only stage wins in Germany are from exceptionally fast stages and same thing for one Australia and one Portugal stage win. He only has two stage wins from technical gravel stages, one in Portugal and one in Turkey. His best result in a technical gravel rally is 5th in Portugal 2017 and best tarmac result 5th (many rallies)

[dupanton]

I don't say Breen would be a championship contender.
I see him as "best of the rest", capable of winning rallies and finishing high(ish) in other rounds.
If you combine him with Fourmaux who will be getting quicker on Tarmac, his prefered surface, I think that is the best 2 car line-up in middle long term they can go for.

[adr17]

Think they really need to change test/development drivers , Matt Wilson regularly in cars but was over a sec a km slower on the british championship round could only manage 5th overall

Hearing a lot of lads leaving msport at the minute not enjoying the working conditions , got rid of 90 people and expect the people left to do the same work load , as rumour is they are busier than pre covid

[mknight]

I agree that Breen has been a bit disappointing on other WRC drives than in Finland, Sweden and Estonia. And in three last years, he hasn't had many starts elsewhere. Wales and Croatia were not really impressive.

If you look at Breen's stage win list, his only stage wins in Germany are from exceptionally fast stages and same thing for one Australia and one Portugal stage win. He only has two stage wins from technical gravel stages, one in Portugal and one in Turkey. His best result in a technical gravel rally is 5th in Portugal 2017 and best tarmac result 5th (many rallies)

He was 4th in GB 2018 which I'd rank as his best non-fast loose rally result.

--------------------


I don't say Breen would be a championship contender.
I see him as "best of the rest", capable of winning rallies and finishing high(ish) in other rounds.
If you combine him with Fourmaux who will be getting quicker on Tarmac, his prefered surface, I think that is the best 2 car line-up in middle long term they can go for.

Given what he has done so far I don't see him as best of the rest.

More precisely I don't see how you can say that he is able to finish high on anything other than non-fast loose rallies, as AntiiL listed there is nothing that confirms it and plenty of opposite results.

The closest comparison to Breen right now might be Østberg in 2018. Great result on his favourite type of rally in Finland (2nd). Based on that he got more chances on other rallies that year (and didn't impress much).
So Breen should get more chances on other types of rallies, at Hyundai he had 2 so far. GB was crash out of 6th as last Hyundai. Croatia was "crash" into kerb (puncture) out of 5th as last Hyundai/Toyota (ahead of Fourmaux on first event and Greensmith + Katsuta).
Now he gets another chance in Ypres.

So back to initial conclusion, I don't see why MSport should sign him unless he does well in Ypres. (or other rally rest of the year that isn't Finland).

[mknight]

Young Solberg who has had less obvious success will be taking his Hyundai seat on his name alone..

Off topic here but I would say there is now real pressure on Solberg before Ypres (completely contrary to what Adamo says).

Already in January I was arguing that Solberg needs to develop into delivering reliable rally results (or at least finishing rallies without issues), like Rovanpera did in 2019, and not just good times on single stages. Sadly it has been quite the opposite, two retirements after first 2 stages in last two rallies, Hard to learn anything from that. Yes you can learn rallies and gain experience in WRC just like in Rally2, but it gets notably more expensive and "visible" to the public when you make mistakes then.

Until now an argument could be made that the current i20 R5 is not great and he has to push more to get times (doesn't explain Safari), but now with new car that should not be the case any more. So he definitely needs to show he can drive to the finish at a decent position in Ypres and not just win a few stages and crash.

Based on his results this year so far I don't see that Adamo would consider him as a replacement for Breen even on those few fast rallies next year, provided Breen wants to stay. Maybe more like a repeat of this year (Solberg starting a few rallies in 4th car), but there are a few rallies yet to run, so things might change.

[Gustav Andel]

Hey, guys! I am mostly just a reader on this forum, but I would also like to add a post.

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/sebastien-loeb-no-plans-2022-return/6637785/

I think there is one obvious choice for M-Sport - Sébastien Loeb. He'd still want to ride in the WRC. Even if he's just testing the car, that's a huge asset to the team. And, of course, he could start in a few select contests. He'd also be an ideal mentor for Adrien Fourmaux.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Teemu Suninen, who is backed by wealthy rally driver investor Timo Jouhki, only has a WRC1 part-programme this year.

Is this because his manager is losing faith in him, or because he doesnt think the Fiesta WRC is currently super-competitive... or because he's holding back to fund Suninen for a full season in the new 2022 Puma ?

[AnttiL]

Teemu Suninen, who is backed by wealthy rally driver investor Timo Jouhki, only has a WRC1 part-programme this year.

Is this because his manager is losing faith in him, or because he doesnt think the Fiesta WRC is currently super-competitive... or because he's holding back to fund Suninen for a full season in the new 2022 Puma ?

Again you're quoting Absolute Rally without citing them.

I believe this is down to M-Sport having to enter two cars in every rally, and supporting financially these entries, but at the same time having three drivers paying for those drives.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I believe this is down to M-Sport having to enter two cars in every rally, and supporting financially these entries, but at the same time having three drivers paying for those drives.

The question was about Jouhki's current & future support of Suninen.

[Sulland]

I will be surprized if MSport keeps Suninen in a role for 2022.
He has been struggeling to get the maximum out of the Fiestas he has driven.

[mknight]

If they really believe in Fourmaux and Suninen brings a lot of money it's possible. So it's back to Eddie's question about Jouhki commitment.

Thing is, even if Fourmaux is another Ogier he certainly won't be fighting for title next year, most likely not even for rally wins and probably not even for podiums....and in 2-3 years when he might Puma likely already starts falling behind.

Btw. the comparison of Suninen and Fourmaux this year is somewhat interesting. Suninen has terrible results in WRC and decent in WRC2. Fourmaux decent in WRC and poor in WRC2 (with the exception of Monte).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.motorsport.com/wrc/news/m-sport-working-to-field-three-pumas-for-2022-wrc/6642983/

[macebig]

Fourmaux is a lock. One car is either for Breen or Mikkelsen. 3rd car split between Sunninen and Greensmith. Probably the most realistic scenario.

[TypeR]

I highly doubt Greensmith will share a car next year..
He needs to drive and progress, not sit and wait for his turn..

[M3 Jambo]

Would suggest if Fergus pays he'll have a drive.

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-m-sport-wants-to-see-from-suninen-in-ypres/

Millener says he wants Suninen to win..

Hard to say how to read him though. He said similar stuff before Croatia and Suninen ended 2nd while beeing basically 4th fastest on speed. Yet after the event Millener said Suninen did perfect job....

Anyway here I would say Suninen might actually be the biggest favourite in WRC2 (maybe not in Rally2, but I dunno those Belgian guys)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/what-m-sport-wants-to-see-from-suninen-in-ypres/

Millener says he wants Suninen to win..

Hard to say how to read him though. He said similar stuff before Croatia and Suninen ended 2nd while beeing basically 4th fastest on speed. Yet after the event Millener said Suninen did perfect job....

Anyway here I would say Suninen might actually be the biggest favourite in WRC2 (maybe not in Rally2, but I dunno those Belgian guys)

Suninen needs a result here, or at least to set some top times. It would be unacceptable to be beaten by the youngsters in the brand new Hyundai i20N.

But there's 3 or 4 highly-experienced Belgian drivers that have done this and other Belgian rallies for many years and I'm sure will go well, so a Rally2 win isnt easy.

[mknight]

I am very sure Millener only thinks/talks about WRC2 win.

[MentalParadox]

Well, no matter your metric, it looks like another miserable failure for Teemu.

[mknight]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loeb-discussing-possible-wrc-return-with-m-sport/

When I read the title I thought it would be great with one of Lappi/Mikkelsen/Breen, Loeb and Fourmaux all for full season....


then I read the article and get a "nightmare" scenario of Fourmaux and Greensmith for full season with Loeb sharing the car with a paydriver like Suninen or Gryazin.

[macebig]

Intriguing. But, how many rallies can Loeb take part? Monte is out of the question, he won't go to Sweden and then he has Extreme E events tbc. Probably a 4th entry for 1 or 2 rallies (Spain?).

[bomber21]

I do not understand Loeb doing 2 or 3 events, really. Half season should be the minimum.

In my opinion, if M-Sport have as 2022 main drivers Greensmith and Fourmaux, they will have another disastrous year thst will lead to the exit of WRC. They really MUST hire a top driver for the new Puma.

[doubled1978]

Intriguing. But, how many rallies can Loeb take part? Monte is out of the question, he won't go to Sweden and then he has Extreme E events tbc. Probably a 4th entry for 1 or 2 rallies (Spain?).

I would imagine better to do gravel rallies and benefit from road position.
I think it would be a good move to have him drive the car a bit, for many reasons.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Loeb doing just a couple of rallies only makes sense if thats all he's happy to do - but he's actually being brought 'on board' more as a mentor for Fourmaux, to develop the Puma and to bring further support from Red Bull

[Danny0405]

Loeb doing just a couple of rallies only makes sense if thats all he's happy to do - but he's actually being brought 'on board' more as a mentor for Fourmaux, to develop the Puma and to bring further support from Red Bull

IMO, Loeb in a couple of rallies with M-Sport is a best pick than his seasons with Hyundai.
I think he would be happier in a «*free-lance*» role than with the Manufacturer Ranking pressure + 2 leaders in the same team (Neuville, Tänak).

Should be also an interesting pick for M-Sport with his experience (and still not far away with 11 WRC rallies between 2018 and 2020). And the promotional side.

However, I hope that this is in addition (and not instead) a consistent full-time WRC driver such as Breen because the current season shows M-Sport absolutely need a consistent driver to have a proper evaluation of the cars and drivers. Suninen might have filled the role this year but he lost confidence + not enough testing + Part-time.
Would be annoying if Breen and Lappi sign elsewhere; I’m not sure Mikkelsen can fill the bill considering his 2 years out of a WRC car.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The way they are 'talking to Loeb' seems to confirm finances are still the issue for M-Sport and Ford hasnt committed to come back as a factory team and fund a top driver salary.

Ogier was the understandable exception for MW to pay for, but anyone else who's available now doesnt have the same guarantee of success...

[macebig]

Don't think finances play a role for Loeb. He already has a lot of commitments (Dakar + possibly other raid events, Extreme E) and he won't be available for more than a couple of events. If the calendars don't line up with his preferred rallies, there isn't much in having him for 1 or 2 events.

[mknight]

People automatically assume Lappi prefers part time season at Toyota over maybe fulltime at MSport because:
- better funded team (very likely competetive, more salary)
- prospect of more starts when Ogier retires
- bad experience at MSport in 2020 and prbly mostly good at Toyota in 2017-2018

(Might also be that MSport isn't interested though)

Breens situation is actually very similar yet people automatically assume he prefers full season at MSport to part-time with Hyundai:
- Hyundai is better funded team
- prospect of more starts when Sordo retires
- good experience with Hyundai recently, no experience with MSport (and their recent performances aren't really impressive)

Only major difference is that there is a new candidate at Hyundai (Solberg), but he just isn't ready yet.

So it IMO isn't easy simple choice for Breen either (if he can choose).

[EstWRC]

how come it isnt easy choice for Breen, you cant do half ass seasons forever

he would have to wait another year to get the full seat at Hyundai and imagine having a bad year and not getting any seat at all from any team. He needs a full season ASAP on all rounds, not just the ones which suit him.

Lappi said himself IMO he doesnt want to pay anymore for any drive so he is definitely excluded from the M-sport list in my eyes.

[mknight]

We don't know if he won't be offered full season at Hyundai. But I guess Adamo waits until at least after Greece to see if a different codriver will bring back Sordos stability.

Imagine going to MSport that isn't competetive to spend full seasons driving behind Toyota/Hyundai and ending without a drive like Lappi did after 2020. At Hyundai it is much more likely that the car is competetive and lately he seems to match with it.


If anything the last 2-3 years have shown that car (and money for testing), matter "more" than a driver. I.e. the "top' drivers are actually all quite close to each other.

See Tanak at Hyundai vs Toyota, Evans at Toyota vs MSport. Ogier at Toyota vs Citroen (on tarmac most of all), Lappi at MSport...

[Danny0405]

Breens situation is actually very similar yet people automatically assume he prefers full season at MSport to part-time with Hyundai:

There might be a difference about the offers.
Lappi seems clearly to have a good advantage on the Toyota spot, considering Latvala’s comments, and he was a top contender for some months now.
+ considering last year comments between Lappi and M-Sport, I’m not really sure they want to work together again (on both sides).

For Breen, it might be a question of timing: if Hyundai is not sure about its strategy for next year, maybe it is better to secure a full-time drive now than waiting an offer from Hyundai. Especially if Hyundai has made no offer before his two 2nd positions in a row.

Personnally, I think M-Sport is a risk for Breen but if he has no clear offer from Hyundai at the moment, IMO, he should sign with M-Sport as a lead driver. He could take the risk of waiting an offer from Hyundai as he is the best option remaining (if we assume Lappi to Toyota is set) but, still, there are some B-rank drivers available currently and he could have a bad surprise.

[er88]

Breen would choose a full season at Msport over a half season at Hyundai.

He's already said multiple he wants a full season now, you can't build up and improve to become a potential title contender doing half arsed seasons on the same(ish) events. And whether we think he can ever get there or not, Breen still has ambitions to fight for a title in the future.

Msport need him. Breen has been on a slow upward trajectory, but he's still on it and we haven't seen his full potential after two or so FULL seasons in a good car. Imo he deserves the chances now that the likes of Evans/ Tanak/ Mikkelsen/ Neuville/ Latvala etc have had. 3 of those now start the season aiming for the title, after having years of ups and downs to reach the elite level. Not everyone is an Ogier or a Loeb who can quickly find rally winning pace and consistency.

I'd ask serious questions of Msport and Malcolm if they don't push the boat out to sign Breen. He's the best option for them out of the current attainable drivers. Will be interesting if Adamo wants to give him a full season or continues the 3rd car rotation. Sordo can't go on forever.

[mknight]

Breen would choose a full season at Msport over a half season at Hyundai.

He's already said multiple he wants a full season now, you can't build up and improve to become a potential title contender doing half arsed seasons on the same(ish) events.



The choice (if there is any) is not between full season at MSport and 2-3 events at Hyundai.... it might have been 3 months ago, but not after Ypres.

If there is any choice it might be full season at MSport vs say 8 out of 14? events at Hyundai (or even full season at Hyundai).
In that case I doubt it's a clear choice, for him either.

(Breen has been saying he wants full season for 1,5 years now. Yes but how much of that is "pressure" for more starts at Hyundai?)


You can't build up and improve at all if the car is lacking and team has no money for even basic testing.
See Suninen this year, Sardinia as the worst example.
No testing, hasn't driven the car on gravel for like 8 months, never used the Pirelli gravel tires. Crashes in first stage and gets "we don't care, it's your problem" from MSport leadership.
...or goes to Estonia gets technical issues after few stages and spends rest of the weekend roadcleaning.

Result is he is not improving anything and his "standing" is dropping like a stone. (and he is also burning own funding)

Sure MSport is likely to be more on the pace next year, but there is little guarantee. But drivers often have very high meaning of themselves on how others "problems" won't happen to them cause they are better. Doesn't seem to work that well though (see Tanak to Hyundai, Loeb at Hyundai before that).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The big problem for all who are looking for a WRC seat in 2022 is the new Rally1 cars. Teams wont let them test their car until they've signed for fear of them taking info about it elsewhere.

Picking any of the new cars will be a gamble, but M-Sport have a better reputation than Hyundai in this respect.

[mknight]

Long-term reputation yes, short term I am not so sure.

2006 Focus was clearly fastest
2011 Fiesta seemed also faster than competition

2017 i20 WRC seemed like clearly the fastest car during first half of the season. Fiesta was comparable to others but not not clearly better.
But even this is 4 years ago, and lately MSport had big staff reductions including Loriaux (to Hyundai).

The "new" Fiesta Rally2 (2019) isn't much of a success.

Yes it seems Hyundai didn't let Breen drive the new car yet. But the fact that Neuville and especially Tanak re-signed should be telling that it's not bad so far.
How Puma will be is much harder to guess for Breen.

[AnttiL]

But even this is 4 years ago, and lately MSport had big staff reductions including Loriaux (to Hyundai).

Loriaux was at M-Sport, but has not been working at the rally program for years

[mknight]

Loriaux was at M-Sport, but has not been working at the rally program for years

He was this year:
https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/loriaux-explains-his-hyundai-move/


“In 2020, I carried on developing some ideas for Bentley and worked quite a lot with Chris Williams on the Ford 2022 Rally car.

So basically he knows the Puma (until May) and then went to Hyundai with all that knowledge.

Not likely MSport will have much of an advantage over Hyundai then.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In 2017 the M-Sport Fiesta WRC won the Driver's & Manu titles and all 3 of their driver's (Ogier, Tanak & Evans) won events in it. The new car won the most rallies that year.

Hyundai with their i20 WRC were well behind in 2nd place in the Manus points and only Neuville was able to win in it.

[mknight]

Neuville lost 2 clear wins with own crashes (Monte, Sweden), and two more likely podiums (Germany, Spain).
Still he had more stagenwins than Ogier and Tanak together.

In either case I wrote first half of the season, there was no competition there. Ogier took 5-ish rallies to develop the car to his (and Tanaks) liking.

No Ogier at MSport to develop it next year.

[EstWRC]

lol Ogier developed it to Tänaks liking....


its such a shame M-sport didnt get any of the big names...i really wished Ott would sign or Thierry, was actually a little surprised that both stayed

[rp]

its such a shame M-sport didnt get any of the big names...i really wished Ott would sign or Thierry, was actually a little surprised that both stayed

I was sure that Ott would be there, because his time with Hyundai has been very bad, but surely money was talking more...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In either case I wrote first half of the season, there was no competition there. Ogier took 5-ish rallies to develop the car to his (and Tanaks) liking.
.

Neuville was at Hyundai already and the 2017 car was designed around him. (Some would say it still is and several other drivers have struggled with it over the years.)

Ogier had to adapt to the Fiesta from years at VW and developing their 2017 car. He got it to his liking but it was still an adaptable enough car for others to win rallies in it.

[er88]

Neuville was at Hyundai already and the 2017 car was designed around him. (Some would say it still is and several other drivers have struggled with it over the years.)

Ogier had to adapt to the Fiesta from years at VW and developing their 2017 car. He got it to his liking but it was still an adaptable enough car for others to win rallies in it.It's hard to say that the car was designed around Neuville. Ofcourse he had an advantage vs Ogier going into the Fiesta blind, but Thierry was the last Hyundai driver to test the i20 because he took a while to commit his future to the team in 2016. Abbring, Sordo and Paddon etc all had tests before Hyundai let Neuville drive it. It's not like they designed the car specifically for Neuville when he potentially could've moved away.

The i20 definitely seemed the fastest car in the early part of the season, Neuville just blew two comfortable leads in Monte and Sweden. The fiesta was very good and had a wide operating window, but it wasn't the best car out of the blocks imo.

[AnttiL]

The beginning of 2017 was weird in the sense that the Fiesta seemed to be inomplete (Ogier had hydraulix issues, Tänak had weird engine issues and Evans had engine failure in Mexico), but still Ogier won his only two rallies of the season on the first and sixth events of the year. I would say it was more about Ogier's skill to take it easy and control the pace and let others fail in front of him. This was especially the case in Portugal. Also I would say Toyota was still underdeveloped in early 2017.

[mknight]

In the first half of 2017 "everyone" was fast with Hyundai. Paddon was a bit down after Monte, but by Sardinia he totally had the speed, same with Sordo. Later they started their back-and-forth aero changes and others improved.

Anyway back to the very start....

There is no guarantee Puma will be comparable to Toyota and Hyundai at start of 2022. 06' Focus and 11' Fiesta were fastest, 17' was comparable but not fastest.
It is possible, maybe even likely, but not guaranteed.

Let's put it in different words:

2022 Toyota is being developed by same people as current Toyota, with Ogier, Evans, Rovanpera and Hanninen driving. Seemingly lots of funding.

2022 Hyundai is being developed by mostly different people than 2017 car, including Loriaux who was involved with 2022 Puma before jumping ship and Tanak and Neuville driving. Seemingly lots of funding.

2022 Puma is being developed by reduced stafff compared with 2017 car, with Matt Wilson and Fourmaux driving. Limited funding.

[AnttiL]

Also good to remember that the 2017 cars were mainly test driven by

Hyundai - Kevin Abbring
Ford - Eric Camilli
Toyota - Juho Hänninen (and Tommi Mäkinen)
Citroen - Kris Meeke

[EstWRC]

Camilli? yeah he did develop it but not mainly as far as i know. Tänaks father said in one interview back in the day that Ott did most of the km's with it.

Also im not sure about Abbring with Hyundai? Hänninen and Meeke definitely were the main ones.

[TypeR]

Why is ford hurting you so much? :D (mknight)

Ford won 2017 drivers and manus championship..
+ 18' WDC, can't really complain..

Endless budget doesn't always equal fast or reliable car..
Even after 4-5 years Hyundai has random cheap problems.

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

[doubled1978]

It remains to be seen as well how reliable this hybrid system will be, and who makes best use of it, could have a big impact on results.
MSport/Ford have done very well at designing relatively benign cars at the start of new rule sets, which while the cars are under-developed (new) has helped them. The lack of budget has then obviously hindered the on going development of the car and they fall away from the pace. I’m not sure Ogier and Tanak would be winning rallies in today’s Fiesta, the other two cars have been extremely developed and are very fast, but we will never know now I guess.
Impossible to really predict what will happen this time, I’m sure we all hope the 3 cars are pretty equal and we get good competition.

[macebig]

With Ogier or Tanak at the wheel, the Fiesta would be a regular podium mainstay and you can take that to the bank. Drivers are the problem, not the car. It's 2016 all over again.

[Danny0405]

With Ogier or Tanak at the wheel, the Fiesta would be a regular podium mainstay and you can take that to the bank. Drivers are the problem, not the car. It's 2016 all over again.

Not really comparable with 2016 for me.
Yes, Camilli’s season was a mess and the overall was disappointing.

But Ostberg did quite a good first half of season, he would have been second at the WDC ranking after Sardinia without an engine failure (especially interesting if we remember he didn’t have good roads position because of his consistency).
And Tanak was close to the win in Poland (yes, helped by D-Mack tyres but, on the other hand, these same tyres were a disadvantage on most of the rallies).
The second half was more complicated except Tanak in Wales but mostly because Ford put its means on the new car.

Here, the 2021 season is much more difficult so far and they have only made one podium on their last 20 rallyes (since Finland 2019) whereas they had a driver like Lappi last year (3 podiums even with the average Citroen in 2019).

[AnttiL]

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

I don't believe this. They could get lucky podiums with problems from others, but that's all.

Fiesta fell of the wagon of development in the summer of 2018 when the big rear aeros started appearing. In the end they had to revert one homologation and it appears they never got the suspension working together with the bigger aero, like Hyundai and Toyota managed. And from 2019 onwards the development has been sparse compared to what they did with Ogier in the team.

[doubled1978]

I don't believe this. They could get lucky podiums with problems from others, but that's all.

Fiesta fell of the wagon of development in the summer of 2018 when the big rear aeros started appearing. In the end they had to revert one homologation and it appears they never got the suspension working together with the bigger aero, like Hyundai and Toyota managed. And from 2019 onwards the development has been sparse compared to what they did with Ogier in the team.

I agree.

[mknight]

Why is ford hurting you so much? :D (mknight)

Ford won 2017 drivers and manus championship..
+ 18' WDC, can't really complain..

..

put Ogier or Tänak in Fiesta today and they will win stages/rallies with it..

Past is past we are talking about now and future.

How do you explain Evans in Fiesta vs Toyota and comparably Lappi on podiums with Citroen and nowhere with Fiesta?

Both is 2019 vs 2020, the latest comparison possible as there were no driver changes from last year.


The most likely explanation is MSport not having money for testing/development. For example before Estonia 2020 they seemingly did zero development and no testing.

Ogier and Tanak winning rallies with zero testing sounds funny. Just a week ago Ogier said his bad performance on Ypres was partly cause he was testing on wrong type of road .


MSport can have genious designers, but little money only gets you so far.


I am not trying to say that MSport are bad, but I do challenge the "automatic" assumption that Puma will be one of the fastest cars. It might, but there is little guarantee.

[trykmann]

Just a week ago Ogier said his bad performance on Ypres was partly cause he was testing on wrong type of road .


You have to be critical about the wrong type of road comment. This has been used since Latvala became the team boss. This is just a silly excuse. For example after Artic we heard the same thing.

[AnttiL]

Yes but in this case it was true, the tested on a road which was just completely flat out, no bends where shifting down was necessary. It's like doing your test on an airfield. Difficult to test your setup for the tricky bends and junctions of Ypres like that.

In Arctic it felt more like they made a strategic decision to do a part of the test in Jyväskylä, where they can test without spending their yearly test days, and it was the wrong call.

[EstWRC]

didnt they test at both locations? Jyväskylä and also Arctic?

[rp]

didnt they test at both locations? Jyväskylä and also Arctic?

Yes

[AnttiL]

Right, it went like this: Toyota tested in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi, Hyundai tested in Rovaniemi and did a winter rally in Estonia. The tests in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi were in -20 C, whereas the rally in Estonia was close to zero temperatures, which was how Arctic Rally Finland turned out as well, that's how Hyundai got their advantage.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/latvala-rues-toyotas-arctic-set-up-mistake/

[cali]

Right, it went like this: Toyota tested in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi, Hyundai tested in Rovaniemi and did a winter rally in Estonia. The tests in Jyväskylä and Rovaniemi were in -20 C, whereas the rally in Estonia was close to zero temperatures, which was how Arctic Rally Finland turned out as well, that's how Hyundai got their advantage.

https://www.wrc.com/en/news/2021/wrc/latvala-rues-toyotas-arctic-set-up-mistake/
Not only that but Hyundai also managed to get rid of rear bumpers thus saving weight

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[subarurally]

Suninen leaves M-Sport...

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/suninen-leaves-m-sport-with-immediate-effect/

[KertR]

A good choice, Fiesta is not a car to be competitve to others, no reason to stay...

If they found a solution to be in other teams... A good choice. Lets see, we get the news when Teemu starts another team ...

[drive]

Breen to drive Ford for two years....

[AnttiL]

Breen to drive Ford for two years....

Says who? ;)

As a rumor only, we know already

[er88]

2 year deal would makes sense for both Breen and Msport. He deserves back to back full seasons, have that bit of security about his future and get the chances given to other drivers.

For Msport, it gives them protection from Hyundai or Toyota picking Breen up at the end of next season (if Craig was to have a breakout year like Evans did in 2020).

Nothing announced yet, but don't think we will have to wait much longer....

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Says who? ;)

As a rumor only, we know already

WRC_TV_ITALY says its a done-deal with an official announcement very soon.

[mknight]

I find it really strange they would announce it before Finland and even stranger they (Hyundai) would let him test Puma before Finland.

[doubled1978]

I find it really strange they would announce it before Finland and even stranger they (Hyundai) would let him test Puma before Finland.

Very odd…why would MSport let him test their new car before he has finished with Hyundai?

[tommeke_B]

Very odd…why would MSport let him test their new car before he has finished with Hyundai?
Do you think many drivers ever signed up with a team before having driven the car?

[mknight]

Citroen specifically didn't allow Ogier to test C3 without signing at end of 2016...and he was 4 times world champion.

Now with new and very different rules I would imagine all teams are being protective. Don't think Breen is in a position to demand a test beforehand.

Anyway I was thinking mostly the other way, why should Hyundai be interested in making it simpler for MSport to fight against them as long as Breen works for them? (Also "distracting" Breen right before he has a jobb to do for them).

Sure it might happen, but the most natural timing both for announcement and test is after Finland.

[Andre Oliveira]

WRC_TV_ITALY says its a done-deal with an official announcement very soon.

The original post is from here:

https://instagram.com/msportrallyfan?utm_medium=copy_link

[the sniper]

Quoted from the Barum thread...


I agree with Mirek, and you also have to consider who is actually more attractive right now to Msport (or Hyundai for the 3rd car) than Breen? Nobody.

Also, if M-Sport is still in the WRC to theoretically sell Rally2/3/4s to customers, having Breen on the team might actually encourage a few more cars sales in Ireland, probably unlike any other driver would in other nations. The Irish are great, very patriotic supporters of rallying. I could see the Motorsport Ireland Rally Academy fully embracing M-Sport products, for example.