M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

[denkimi]

They can not come with Suninen and Greensmith as top dogs. Will be a lot of DNFs.
They need someone to bring the car to points.
what for?

it's not like they have any chance of beating hyundai or toyota.

[mknight]

Since it seems Ford has somehow commited for the 2022 car I wonder:

- Do they need to show some results in WRC in 2021 to ensure continuing Ford support?
If not, they can really just run a money season with Suninen, Greensmith, Formaux. (Or even someone else than Suninen who brings budget)

- Who will develop the 2022 car? ( again doesn't necessarily need to be a top WRC driver, but none of these 3 seem like a very good idea ). You might argue that Camilli did a lot of work developing 2017 Fiesta, but Tanak was certainly there too and Ogier came in November and the car susequently got some big changes in first 1/3 of 2017. (when Hyundai was clearly fastest)

I don't see much reason for MSport to take Mikkelsen or for Mikkelsen to drive at MSport early in 2021 unless it includes a 2022 deal. He is likely not interested in paying to only fight his teammates and neither MSport nor Mikkelsen are in a hurry to sign for 2022 atm. Mikkelsen surely hopes for Toyota and MSport is not in position for long term future deals at this time. So if anything happens on that front it will be much later in the season.

[AndyRAC]

Since it seems Ford has somehow commited for the 2022 car I wonder.

It depends on what 'commitment' is defined by.

Full factory support, both financially and technically, enabling top drivers = Commitment.
Some technical/ aero support only, requiring self funding drivers = half ar5ed support we seen now.

[AnttiL]

I don't see much reason for MSport to take Mikkelsen or for Mikkelsen to drive at MSport early in 2021 unless it includes a 2022 deal. He is likely not interested in paying to only fight his teammates and neither MSport nor Mikkelsen are in a hurry to sign for 2022 atm. Mikkelsen surely hopes for Toyota and MSport is not in position for long term future deals at this time. So if anything happens on that front it will be much later in the season.

Why are we still speculating on Mikkelsen when he clearly is going to drive WRC2 next year with Toksport?

Anyway, someone definitely needs to develop that 2022 car. The thing with Suninen is that he hasn't done an awful lot of testing during his career. During the Ogier years he just took the car as Ogier had set it up and made some adjustments. Then the budgets have been smaller the two following years. He was in a junior testing program with Toyota in the early years of the Yaris WRC project, but I think that was more about endurance testing. He also did something with Oreca on the R4 kit. But I would still like to have someone who has been in proper factory teams, doing more testing. Even Lappi probably has more testing and developing experience (Skoda, Toyota, Citroen).

[dupanton]

M-Sport has more worries on its head, like Brexit. It will cost them extra money and effort to get everything delivered in mainland Europe.
I hope they get to Monte Carlo in time, if there is chaos with a hard exit at the ferry and train...

[Paul Hudson]

M-Sport has more worries on its head, like Brexit. It will cost them extra money and effort to get everything delivered in mainland Europe.
I hope they get to Monte Carlo in time, if there is chaos with a hard exit at the ferry and train...

M-Sport have a very good base in Poland so should not be too much of a problem. Run the WRC Team out of Poland.

[mknight]

Why are we still speculating on Mikkelsen when he clearly is going to drive WRC2 next year with Toksport?



At this point is was mostly since the linked article from D.Evans talked about it (also with Toksport mentioned).

Even with Toksport announcement some kind of deal might happen later in season, but definitely not before Croatia (april).

[Andre Oliveira]

M-Sport have a very good base in Poland so should not be too much of a problem. Run the WRC Team out of Poland.

Ford Fiesta Rally3 and Rally4 there. For sure need big facility.

[Rallyper]

I think we can probably cross JML off the list of potential candidates for an M-Sport drive now...

Though stranger things have happened, like JML becoming Toyota team principle in the first place! :D

For sure after what´s happened after my quote.

[Jarek Z]

I don't know if it was posted here - it seems Malcolm Wilson has more faith in ERC than WRC (at least when it comes to talent development and potential income for M-Sport):
https://www.fiaerc.com/wilson-erc-is-the-proving-ground-for-up-and-coming-talent/

[AnttiL]

I don't know if it was posted here - it seems Malcolm Wilson has more faith in ERC than WRC (at least when it comes to talent development and potential income for M-Sport):
https://www.fiaerc.com/wilson-erc-is-the-proving-ground-for-up-and-coming-talent/

Nah, just promotional talk for the new Rally3 car, which ERC picked up first for a championship

[dupanton]

M-Sport have a very good base in Poland so should not be too much of a problem. Run the WRC Team out of Poland.

That's a different team. I think almost all people working on the wrc and rally2 cars, are based in the UK. I don't think it's that easy to move everything to Poland.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The important thing for M-Sport's future is selling rally cars and servicing/parts.

The Mk2 Fiesta R5 is now showing speed and results so that will probably where their focus will be in 2021.

They cant sell WRC cars and competing with Toyota & Hyundai for championships is impossible as the business doesnt have the money to pay for top driver's.

I can see them just having Greensmith in WRC, with Fourmaux and maybe another payer like Yates again in WRC2.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Suninen said he could switch to WRC2 in 2021...

https://www.instagram.com/p/CJLY8IWDmcD/?igshid=15p35bl1ntpln

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lorenzo Bertelli says see you all soon on the stages in @OfficialWRC 2021 @MSportLtd #WRC !

[seb_sh]

so... MSport money year with Greensmith and Bertelli?

[371]

Can it be that we see different drivers for M-Sport in 2021 and maybe no one gets the full season?

[Paul Hudson]

Would Paddon have a budget to do some rounds with M-Sport ?, has recent experience of developing Electric Rally Cars ?.

[TypeR]

Can it be that we see different drivers for M-Sport in 2021 and maybe no one gets the full season?
Gus and Bertelli decide themselves if they want full season or not :D

[er88]

Gus and Bertelli decide themselves if they want full season or not :DThis

[Neige]

And Bertelli still has his own car?

[TWRC]

Not having exact info on how M-Sport operates with sponsors, but why don't they try something like Nascar teams do? There many cars run with a main sponsor for selected rounds, and on the other ones it appears on the car as an associate sponsor only. Could M-Sport pull something like that, e.g. if some company has money only to be main sponsor for 3 rallies, then they get to be on 3 events, or 2 events for full title sponsor and on the rest they appear on the car in a smaller scale? Might be a stupid idea, just always wondered why they don't try something like that. OK, there would not be a fixed team identity with changing colours and etc, but that might come back with different merch for each sponsor. :D

[wyler]

Can it be that we see different drivers for M-Sport in 2021 and maybe no one gets the full season?

i think more 1 full season 2/3 rotational

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Dirtfish: Mikkelsen is keen to try and get some seat-time in a Rally1 car too. This would most likely be with M-Sport, which is yet to confirm its driver line-up for any of the WRC rounds next year.

“I’m working towards that as well,” Mikkelsen said. “Let’s see if we can make that happen, I would need some sponsors and investors maybe but I’m working on that.”

[TypeR]

M-Sport

There remains some tough times ahead, but we want to reassure all of our customers, partners and fans that M-Sport remains open for business. Our engineers and technicians are preparing for the season opener at Rallye Monte-Carlo, and parts are still being shipped globally to ensure our customers have everything they need to prepare their own programmes.

We extend our heartfelt wishes to everyone affected by the global pandemic and everyone working on the front lines. There is light at the end of the tunnel, and if we all work together and adhere to the provisions set by our governments the sooner we can get back to fully enjoying the sport we all love.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

'Preparing for Rallye Monte Carlo' but still tight-lipped on their WRC1 driver entry though.

Fingers-crossed they can get the deals done but my money is on just Greensmith & Fourmaux.

[abcrally]

'Preparing for Rallye Monte Carlo' but still tight-lipped on their WRC1 driver entry though.

Fingers-crossed they can get the deals done but my money is on just Greensmith & Fourmaux.

My money is on Suninen & Greensmith ;)

They have been entered but the event is likely cancelled though.

[Tom K]

So, Suninen, Greensmith and Fourmaux. Only Gus with full programme.

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/suninen-greensmith-and-fourmaux-in-2021

[EstWRC]

official link https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/suninen-greensmith-and-fourmaux-in-2021

Our striking 2020 livery will also be carried forward to 2021, albeit with a few subtle changes - a new roof motif prominent amongst these changes and extending the popular design with further flashes of blue �� #WRC #MSPORTERS


such a shame cause the were the only ones who were gonna change if anything.

[Francis44]

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/89553f_d5f08e95a9d24377afbe4b13926f202b~mv2.jpg/v1/fill/w_2162,h_1146,al_c,q_90,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01/89553f_d5f08e95a9d24377afbe4b13926f202b~mv2.webp

[T16]

What a terrible situation, but I guess they are still there.
Hope they can find a way of getting someone better for 2022.

[bwallace]

Well money first this politic what m-sport have to do now to survive for the future

[Lancia Stratos]

official link https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/suninen-greensmith-and-fourmaux-in-2021

Our striking 2020 livery will also be carried forward to 2021, albeit with a few subtle changes - a new roof motif prominent amongst these changes and extending the popular design with further flashes of blue �� #WRC #MSPORTERS


such a shame cause the were the only ones who were gonna change if anything.

You think........let's see!

[AnttiL]

Suninen also changing co-driver, probably for a cheaper alternative.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

This is probably the best compromise in a really difficult financial situation.

Greensmith is bringing important money and I believe can improve his speed with more experience.

I'm really glad that Suninen can still have a role and hopefully it can be increased later.

Fourmaux is a fine prospect and it will be interesting to see him adapting to the Rally1 car.

[mknight]

What a terrible situation, but I guess they are still there.
Hope they can find a way of getting someone better for 2022.

This year was a write-off anyway, better concentrate money on 2022 development.

The only big issue I have with this lineup is who will develop 2022 car? (sure you don't need top-speed drivers for development, but usually experience helps) Neither of these 3 ever drove anything than Fiesta.


Other points:

- much better idea for Fourmaux to drive full WRC2 than learning in WRC at this point
- the "free" car when Suninen does not have funds obviously aims at "highest bidder" from the likes of Mikkelsen or Lappi for a few starts, but those will imo also wait for signs that Fiesta is somehow competitive still this year or for "promises" for 2022

[AnttiL]

- much better idea for Fourmaux to drive full WRC2 than learning in WRC at this point
- the "free" car when Suninen does not have funds obviously aims at "highest bidder" from the likes of Mikkelsen or Lappi for a few starts, but those will imo also wait for signs that Fiesta is somehow competitive still this year or for "promises" for 2022

I thought Fourmaux is going to do both full WRC2 season and also some WRC starts

Also remember that M-Sport must have two WRC cars at every WRC event if they want to compete in the manufacturer championship (not for the sake of competing, but for exposure)

[EstWRC]

Gus leading the team, eh?

well its better than nothing, at one point i was really worried about m-sport. im really happy that Suninen gets at least some drives, i wish Lappi would have shared the car with Gus.

really interested to see Formaux in the rally1 machine.

[AnttiL]

The 2022 cars are called Rally1, the top class is WRC until that ;)

[meh]

sure you don't need top-speed drivers for development, but usually experience helps

disagreement, you need to have top-speed driver for development. From where you'll get the necessary feedback?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

disagreement, you need to have top-speed driver for development. From where you'll get the necessary feedback?

Only at the end of the development would you need a top driver to get the last few percent from the car. A lot of guys can be trusted to do the basic work and testing mileage.

[mknight]

disagreement, you need to have top-speed driver for development. From where you'll get the necessary feedback?

That a driver manages to drive extremely fast does not automatically mean he can give good car feedback, especially on how car behavior changes with different parts/setup.
There are many examples where the opposite is often true, "second" or even "third rate" drivers are often better developers than top speed guys that just go as fast as they could all the time.

If you recall Breen after testing with Loeb in C3 (in 2018) was even surprised that Loeb would drive almost all runs on 90% speed and give feedback on the car and only do last few runs at max speed. For Breen it was at that point only natural to drive at full speed.

You only need the real top speed when you start comparing with other cars on rallies, which won't be before 2022. Another point is that these days the difference in top speed between the say 8 fastest drivers is very small in km/s.


Another thing is that the engineers have to actually trust the driver feedback, being a champion/multiple winner can give more authority but other things can do that too. Sometimes it doesn't matter who you are when leadership decides that you are just to pilot what engineers make (Nandans publicly stated approach, 307 WRC 4 gear gearbox..., C3 development etc.).

[Lancia Stratos]

Suninen also changing co-driver, probably for a cheaper alternative.

A cheaper alternative I'm sure, but Lehtinen's decision. He has other options in the sport.

[RS]

The 2022 cars are called Rally1, the top class is WRC until that ;)

Shame.

'Ford Fiesta WRC' sounds so much better than 'Ford Fiesta Rally 1'

Even sticking with R1-R5 would have been better but reversing the hierarchy, although I suppose that would be even more confusing than the current mess.

[Andre Oliveira]

I prefer the new class structure. Same as Formula. 1 is better, 5 is slower...

[M3 Jambo]

Any news on whether the 2022 car will be a Fiesta or a Puma.

[Andre Oliveira]

Fiesta

[TypeR]

I bet the cars will still be called WRC, WRC2/R5 for quite a long time..

Stupid and confusing changes.. They should better work on 22' car rules.. it's already first week of 2021 and basically no news..
The series is called World Rally Championship.. not Rally1, rally2

Wrong thread tho..

[Franky]

I prefer the new class structure. Same as Formula. 1 is better, 5 is slower...

And 5th gear is faster than 1st gear. All about perspective.

[AnttiL]

And 5th gear is faster than 1st gear. All about perspective.

And the one who finished 1st was fastest

[RS]

I prefer the new class structure. Same as Formula. 1 is better, 5 is slower...

i agree, i would just rather they were called R1, R2 etc as it sounds less silly.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

i agree, i would just rather they were called R1, R2 etc as it sounds less silly.

And its ok for a Formula One racing car to be called an F1 car.

The problem is the rally car denotation R1-R5 were already used before (albeit in reverse).

[T16]

i agree, i would just rather they were called R1, R2 etc as it sounds less silly.

Totally agree now it’s put like this. I liked WRC car, hated Rally1, but like R1 car. That’s what I’ll go with.
Thank you.

[pantealex]

And its ok for a Formula One racing car to be called an F1 car.

The problem is the rally car denotation R1-R5 were already used before (albeit in reverse).

That reverse thing is THE problem.
Otherwise we would be calling Rally2 as R2 now.

[Sulland]

From 2022 (if not before) we will call the new WRCar R1 the Rally2 cars R2 and so on. At least in here.

[mknight]

Kresta at that point (2005) had lot of experience with multiple WRC cars (Octavia, Fabia, 206, Accent and 03 Subaru) among these he certainly impressed with posting some of the fastest times ever done by the Accent WRC in his very first (and only) start with it. He has a reputation of being very good with setting up cars.

As mentioned none of these 3 at MSport now ever drove anything else than Fiesta as WRC or R5 .

[wyler]

As mentioned none of these 3 at MSport now ever drove anything else than Fiesta as WRC or R5 .

Why everybody is so certain that development on new car will be on these drivers?

[Tom K]

Suninen confirmed that he will test Rally1 2022.

[wyler]

Suninen confirmed that he will test Rally1 2022.

yes, fourmeaux as well. but I suspect the main work will be again done by Wilson jr and other non-top drivers. let's see.

btw, I don't remember who were the first developers of the current wrc (before tanak and ogier came in)

[EstWRC]

yes, fourmeaux as well. but I suspect the main work will be again done by Wilson jr and other non-top drivers. let's see.

btw, I don't remember who were the first developers of the current wrc (before tanak and ogier came in)

Tänak did most of it, also Camilli, Evans, Wilson Jr and if i remember right also Prokop but i could be wrong here.

[rp]

Tänak did most of it, also Camilli, Evans, Wilson Jr and if i remember right also Prokop but i could be wrong here.

Wilson must have been 1st in Greystoke and then Camilli & Tänak in Spain at the end of August 2016. After that in Spain (Camilli), in Finland (Tänak), in Italy (Evans), in France ( Østberg, Tänak & Camilli). Tänak & Ogier were testing in Sweden in December 2016. I think that Prokop was not testing...

[dupanton]

I think a driver that is slower but gives good feedback is way better than a fast driver who doesn't know what he's talking about.
A story about Francois Duval from the book of Stephane Prevot comes into my mind. He was very fast without a doubt, but when driving for Citroën he didn't even know the difference between under and oversteer...

[mknight]

Why everybody is so certain that development on new car will be on these drivers?

I am not (and I don't think anyone else is either).

But I am worried if it will be only those 3, off course that alone does not mean it can't be a great car.

[Tom K]

Mikkelsen could be an option... but Skoda :D

[AnttiL]

Totally agree now it’s put like this. I liked WRC car, hated Rally1, but like R1 car. That’s what I’ll go with.
Thank you.

The problem with that is that until 1.1.2022 R1 is a low-level FWD car...it's gonna sound weird and cause misunderstandings. That's why they didn't call them R1, R2, .... but Rally1, Rally2...

I know it's not the most convenient way...GR1, GR2....? No, wait, that's done already as well. RG1? That also means something else.

[T16]

The problem with that is that until 1.1.2022 R1 is a low-level FWD car...it's gonna sound weird and cause misunderstandings. That's why they didn't call them R1, R2, .... but Rally1, Rally2...

I know it's not the most convenient way...GR1, GR2....? No, wait, that's done already as well. RG1? That also means something else.

I’ll be fine - I have a pretty decent ability to forget, so R1 car it is ;)

[AnttiL]

I’ll be fine - I have a pretty decent ability to forget, so R1 car it is ;)

then someone says "Remember when Ingram drove the R5 car?". Do you think of the Skoda Fabia or the Renault Clio?

[T16]

then someone says "Remember when Ingram drove the R5 car?". Do you think of the Skoda Fabia or the Renault Clio?

I wouldn’t have any historical interest in Ingram whatsoever. Still happy with R1 car.

[Andre Oliveira]

There will be not Fiesta R1... will be Rally1. Stop abreviate what will not be abreviate.

[T16]

There will be not Fiesta R1... will be Rally1. Stop abreviate what will not be abreviate.

yeah - cheers, but I'll call it what I like. R1 Car.

[wyler]

yeah - cheers, but I'll call it what I like. R1 Car.

yep. my niece calls it "broom broom"

[wyler]

I am not (and I don't think anyone else is either).

But I am worried if it will be only those 3, off course that alone does not mean it can't be a great car.

wilson jr will be first again, then someone will show up. ostberg made a good job with c3 bringing r5 towards rally2. maybe camilli will take a shoot also. I guess they'll be cautious on this matter, they get burned with the mkII fiesta r5, who sorted it out in the end?

[T16]

yep. my niece calls it "broom broom"

Until we go electric :)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lappi could've been a good one to choose having previously driven the Yaris WRC, C3 WRC and Fiesta WRC.

But I guess he's an extra wage when the M-Sport 2021 Drivers will do it as part of their duties.

[T16]

Did Mikkelsen have anything to do with 'deweloping' the Polo?

[mknight]

Did Mikkelsen have anything to do with 'deweloping' the Polo?

If you mean 2017 one, he was driving it a lot in 2016 tests. Basically VW used all test days on driving the 2017 car for like 2/3 of the season. So he has driven 2017 Polo, C3 both before all changes and after (in 2020) and i20 over 2,5 years.


Anyway MSport do not need much of a development feedback from drivers before something like summer this year.
If there is a will (and funds) there should be numerous drivers with experience available for tests at that point - Lappi, Mikkelsen, Meeke, Paddon++

[T16]

Meeke is a great shout actually. Hope they can put their differences aside.

[Francis44]

Meeke is a great shout actually. Hope they can put their differences aside.

Yes because that worked wonders with the C3 😬.

[TypeR]

Yes because that worked wonders with the C3 😬.
Well.... that project is called ,,Matton f0rk up''.. as well 22'' car regulations.

Meeke has told couple of times, that he was not heard/listened by the enginers etc..

[er88]

Biggest problem with that Citroen fiasco was Matton. Meeke was even pushing for Loeb to have early tests of the car but Matton was having none of it.

Changes only started being made after Meeke offered to sit out tests/ a rally for Mikkelsen to reaffirm the same problems.

However Meeke won't be driving or testing the Msport car at all. Ideally they should get Mikkelsen involved and then sign him up for 2022. Mikkelsen + Suninen/Lappi + one other current driver or top prospect would be decent.

[denkimi]

If it would be up to me, it would let as many drivers as possible test it. You can never have too many opinions.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ford Performance and Ken Block no more together. How will affect the WRC program?

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErOqDRGWMAEwv3z?format=jpg&name=large

[Tarmop]

Why should it at all. KB hasn`t used many M-Sport cars lately, after the WRX Project (if we even count it) a few outings.

[mknight]

It's actually not a bad question at all, depending on why the relationship ended.

The basic option range:

1. He got dropped so they save money and use it for 2022 WRC support of MSport or even entering with own bran again - very good for WRC (and likely unrealistic)

2. He got dropped cause they got angry about his latest "Pastrana vids" with Subaru or something like that - somewhat neutral, but might be positive it if helps with WRC funding (most likely option)

3. They dropped it cause they want to reduce motorsport support - very bad for WRC (second least more likely than 1. but less than 2.)

[macebig]

Block probably wants to do Extreme E or Dakar and then call it a day, as he is now well into his 50s.

[wyler]

is going back to his first love (or already gone): Subaru. Hope this is a good news from that side...

[the sniper]

Just been thinking this weekend, Castrol/BP mustn't be an insignificant sponsor/financial contributor to the team, as Gus' dad's (presumably) millions weren't enough to displace Castrol stickers with Crown Oil ones. Though of course, it could just be a long term deal that had to be honoured or it's part of the deal with Ford's contribution.

[mknight]

The first thing that came to my mind after Suninen crash and Millener interview was that they might have a real motivation problem and maybe a sponsor problem on the way.

Previously it might have been "fun" to work for the team and travel to rallies. Nowadays the mechanics and technicians sit in service park, can't talk to anyone can't go anywhere then straight to hotel where they are again isolated and eat alone. (ref. what Sordo says). In between they have quarantine when they come home... and they do all the work to see no pace and/or crash in first stage.

Similarly the few remaining sponsors pay money to see their fastest car getting beaten by Rally2s...

[Got Mail]

Just been thinking this weekend, Castrol/BP mustn't be an insignificant sponsor/financial contributor to the team, as Gus' dad's (presumably) millions weren't enough to displace Castrol stickers with Crown Oil ones. Though of course, it could just be a long term deal that had to be honoured or it's part of the deal with Ford's contribution.

Crown Oil are suppliers of domestic and industrial Heating Oil.

There is no conflict with Castrol Lubricants.

[the sniper]

Crown Oil are suppliers of domestic and industrial Heating Oil.

There is no conflict with Castrol Lubricants.

I'm aware that in practice there isn't. Yet Crown Oil always previously appeared in place of Castrol on Greensmith's car and no longer seems to appear at all...

So are you suggesting the family no longer want the brand to be associated with the WRC or is it a voluntary sacrifice to make it less obvious that the Greensmith family paid for the drive?

[RS]

Just been thinking this weekend, Castrol/BP mustn't be an insignificant sponsor/financial contributor to the team, as Gus' dad's (presumably) millions weren't enough to displace Castrol stickers with Crown Oil ones. Though of course, it could just be a long term deal that had to be honoured or it's part of the deal with Ford's contribution.

I wondered that too but I guess you’re right about it being a long term deal with Castrol and/or tied in with some Ford partnership. That deal could be for the main two M-Sport cars and of course Gus is one of those now rather than the third driver.

Someone reported that Malcolm wants a lot of money for those seats, so somewhat surprising the Greensmith family wouldn’t want something in return for their cash.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

My interpretation is that this is to enable Greensmith to do the full season more cheaply by only paying for the drive and for not sponsorship as well.

Castrol has had a very long-term deal with M-Sport and is an important source of money not to be pushed away for a short-term deal.

It's also doubtful that Crown Oil would get much payback by sponsoring the WRC team. They already sponsor local football teams and stadiums. I'm sure this brings in more sales of domestic/industrial oil for heating than the more niche sport of rallying.

[Steve Boyd]

There is also a link between Castrol and Ford. They supply the lubricants used in new Ford cars and for dealer service. The Castrol sponsorship for MSport might have come from some persuasion by Ford and be part of the hidden support from Ford to MSport.

[Sulland]

Crown Oil history
https://www.crownoil.co.uk/about-us/

[Sulland]

Maybe Suninen will drive Arctic, but after that I would put Fourmaux for the rest of the season with Gus in the two Fords.

He has a very good ability to learn and adjust his drive with the conditions. Talented driver!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Re sponsorship - you may also now notice 'Rockdoor' on the Fiesta WRC for 2021.

Rockdoor were a sponsor on Greensmith's Fiesta R5 a few years ago, so he may have brought them as a sponsor to M-Sport.

[Got Mail]

Re sponsorship - you may also now notice 'Rockdoor' on the Fiesta WRC for 2021.

Rockdoor were a sponsor on Greensmith's Fiesta R5 a few years ago, so he may have brought them as a sponsor to M-Sport.

It's another of their family businesses. As is GAP plastics.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

It's another of their family businesses. As is GAP plastics.

Right, so getting this on the car instead of Crown Oil so as not to clash with Castrol.

[pantealex]

Maybe Suninen will drive Arctic, but after that I would put Fourmaux for the rest of the season with Gus in the two Fords.

He has a very good ability to learn and adjust his drive with the conditions. Talented driver!

You believe that Formaux with zero WRC experience is faster than Suninen ?

Rest of season means Summer Rally Finland also ? Rally Estonia ?

[djip]

Maybe Suninen will drive Arctic, but after that I would put Fourmaux for the rest of the season with Gus in the two Fords.

He has a very good ability to learn and adjust his drive with the conditions. Talented driver!

Yes Fourmeaux is doing great considering his lack of experience. But don't rush him too fast. He needs to learn the rallies and be a constant contender in WRC2 before moving up. He did a great job in Monte Carlo (his first Monte !) but ther is still a long road to go.

[Sulland]

Yes Fourmeaux is doing great considering his lack of experience. But don't rush him too fast. He needs to learn the rallies and be a constant contender in WRC2 before moving up. He did a great job in Monte Carlo (his first Monte !) but ther is still a long road to go.

Agreed but he need a couple of tests, to get the WRCar under his skin. He has a good brain, and need to start prosessing.
He has put his medical studies on halt to focus fully on rally. So maybe this driver works a bit different than most others.

[tommeke_B]

Yes Fourmeaux is doing great considering his lack of experience. But don't rush him too fast. He needs to learn the rallies and be a constant contender in WRC2 before moving up. He did a great job in Monte Carlo (his first Monte !) but ther is still a long road to go.

Actually his third Monte... ;) But indeed, great event from him and it looks like he has more to show. Let's just hope they don't skip steps like they did with Camilli.

[Mirek]

Guys, don't forget that Gus won Monte Carlo in WRC2...

[Sulland]

Gus needs coaching both mental and driving. It is not fare to expect the same from him as other team leaders.

[AnttiL]

Gus winning the RC2 class in Monte 2019 was his finest drive, but the entry list that year wasn’t that special. No works Skodas or ex-WRC drivers. Rovanperä, Veiby, Ciamin, Bonato, Sarrazin, Katsuta...and Fourmaux.

[RS]

This situation is frustrating for all us fans, especially when there are only two other manufacturers in the WRC class but there is little point in attacking Gus or even M-Sport (which I have probably been guilty of too). Thinking things through there is no logical reason why M-Sport should or would want to spend too much of their own money other than for Malcolm’s personal enjoyment or vanity, when:

- The project is not paid for by a manufacturer and they have no incentive to give the best performance to retain that backing

- As far as i’m aware there are no cash prizes for manufacturers in WRC (as there are in F1 for example)

- There is no real market for selling or renting these vehicles to privateers

- There seems to be very little in the way of external sponsorship coming into WRC other than from subsidiaries or partners of manufacturers.

Fingers crossed things change for the hybrid era. Perhaps Ford can be persuaded to open their wallet if they can get some marketing mileage out of the hybrid technology or maybe Mikelssen can get Red Bull to offer some backing to the team in the same way they did to get Ogier in a Fiesta when VW pulled out.

[AnttiL]

Why M-Sport wants to stay in WRC:
- They can get money in from paydrivers
- They want to stay relevant in the sport in order to sell lower class cars.
- Maybe the 2022 cars will be more privateer-friendly?

[mknight]

- As far as i’m aware there are no cash prizes for manufacturers in WRC (as there are in F1 for example)


This is actuall a real problem imo, in F1 there is money for each manu point earned. Surely the promoter sells TV "product" to TV providers, sells Allive etc. I get that it's likely not huge sums but how is that in any way channeled back to teams/drivers?

-----
Anyway back to MSport



- The project is not paid for by a manufacturer and they have no incentive to give the best performance to retain that backing


I am not so sure about this. In one way or another Ford does "give" them money/support. Will this continue endlessly if they are not only after the first 3 cars from each of the other manus but even after "extra drivers" (Katsuta, Loubet..)


Why M-Sport wants to stay in WRC:
- They can get money in from paydrivers


Here is the main danger imo. If those drivers that have money and ambition see that they will be at a significant performance disadvantage with MSport they will go elsewhere. At least those that have a realistic ambition of making it towards the top.
So you get Veiby, Loubet and in a way also Solberg going to Hyundai rather than MSport which would have been the typical go-to just 2-3 years ago. If they can't attract those they end up with only guys like Bertelli.

For this specific reason they should have at minimum 1 "Top" driver performance-wise to at least on occasions show what the car can do. IMO it should be somewhat reliable driver (in terms of performance), not necessarily finishing rallies.

This year Suninen kind of has that role. So far he has done terrible, but it's only one rally. My issue is that he is not really considered reliable (and neither is Lappi), meaning considered as a proven driver that is regularly fast over the season. Meeke, Paddon, Mikkelsen, Østberg, (and Latvala) fit that much better. But Meeke, Paddon and similar drivers who have won rallies also don't want to pay a lot of money just to "promote" MSport product.

So we get to the dilemma, keep on "risking" with "unreliable"/young drivers or use a bit more money for some regularly fast one? So far MSport almost always goes for the cheaper and risky option. Worked in 2019 (Evans had real pace in Corsica and GB and got "sold" to Toyota, getting money to MSport), did not work at all in 2020 (only a tiny glimpse at Monza).

[SubaruNorway]

Why M-Sport wants to stay in WRC:
- They can get money in from paydrivers
- They want to stay relevant in the sport in order to sell lower class cars.
- Maybe the 2022 cars will be more privateer-friendly?

Unless there are special rules in the WRC you need at least one trained mechanic to work on the high voltage system, not a huge deal but needs to be done i guess

[AnttiL]

Here is the main danger imo. If those drivers that have money and ambition see that they will be at a significant performance disadvantage with MSport they will go elsewhere. At least those that have a realistic ambition of making it towards the top.
So you get Veiby, Loubet and in a way also Solberg going to Hyundai rather than MSport which would have been the typical go-to just 2-3 years ago. If they can't attract those they end up with only guys like Bertelli.


Just for the record, Bertelli owns his car and has his own team.

But why people are going to Hyundai, I can only think of two things: 1) the performance of Fiesta WRC and 2) the performance of Fiesta Rally2 (although Hyundai R5 hasn't been much better)

[AnttiL]

This year Suninen kind of has that role. So far he has done terrible, but it's only one rally. My issue is that he is not really considered reliable (and neither is Lappi), meaning considered as a proven driver that is regularly fast over the season. Meeke, Paddon, Mikkelsen, Østberg, (and Latvala) fit that much better. But Meeke, Paddon and similar drivers who have won rallies also don't want to pay a lot of money just to "promote" MSport product.

So we get to the dilemma, keep on "risking" with "unreliable"/young drivers or use a bit more money for some regularly fast one? So far MSport almost always goes for the cheaper and risky option. Worked in 2019 (Evans had real pace in Corsica and GB and got "sold" to Toyota, getting money to MSport), did not work at all in 2020 (only a tiny glimpse at Monza).

I'm sure everyone saw that Suninen was about to win the stage before he crashed. That showed that the upgraded Fiesta has potential.

Also, if you say 2020 had only glimpses at Monza, you're forgetting how fast Suninen was in Mexico and Sardegna. Lappi was also setting decent times here and there.

But like you said, it's not their interest to hire someone to drive fast at the moment.

[AMSS]

I'm sure everyone saw that Suninen was about to win the stage before he crashed. That showed that the upgraded Fiesta has potential.

Also, if you say 2020 had only glimpses at Monza, you're forgetting how fast Suninen was in Mexico and Sardegna. Lappi was also setting decent times here and there.

But like you said, it's not their interest to hire someone to drive fast at the moment.

I have missed it so if anyone knows.. were there other updates besides the front aero? Was the engine update already in use in Monte?

[abcrally]

I have missed it so if anyone knows.. were there other updates besides the front aero? Was the engine update already in use in Monte?

No engine update.

[AnttiL]

No engine update.

OK, I thought they already added that. Then it's even more impressive from Suninen. The engine upgrade was already supposed to come for summer 2020, but they decided to use all the remaining old-spec engines for economical reasons.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I thought the engine upgrade was here, especially with Suninen's pace.

2021 is here, what are they waiting for when its just upgrades not a completely new engine ?

[Rallyper]

Just for the record, Bertelli owns his car and has his own team.

But why people are going to Hyundai, I can only think of two things: 1) the performance of Fiesta WRC and 2) the performance of Fiesta Rally2 (although Hyundai R5 hasn't been much better)

3) Money

[mknight]

I'm sure everyone saw that Suninen was about to win the stage before he crashed. That showed that the upgraded Fiesta has potential.



Pretty much impossible to conclude from that (almost) one stage anything about the Fiesta, especially in the conditions that were there. As proven by the crash Suninen was driving on the edge.

Lots of different cars (and drivers) could do a quick stage time or two at the expense of massive risks, ref. Meeke with C3.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Jan 2020

'Malcolm Wilson is hopeful that the upgrade which is slated to arrive at the fourth round will move the team forwards once more.

“This is the biggest change we’ve made to the engine since we started work with this car [in 2017],” Wilson told Motorsport.com. “It’s a big step. As you’d expect, we’ve worked closely with Ford on this, with Ford doing a lot of the modelling work on the engine.

“When it comes, we’ll have more power, torque and driveability – like I said, it will make a big difference. Once we’ve got that in place, I don’t see any reason really why we shouldn’t be challenging [for victory] on all remaining rounds of the series.'

[RS]

Why M-Sport wants to stay in WRC:
- They can get money in from paydrivers
- They want to stay relevant in the sport in order to sell lower class cars.
- Maybe the 2022 cars will be more privateer-friendly?

1) My point was not whether or not they stay but why would they want to spend in order to do so, when they can take those paydrivers..

2) Skoda are not in the top class but sell lots of Rally2 cars

3) Not so sure about that.. won't they be even more complicated and expensive than the current ones?

[mknight]

[

1) My point was not whether or not they stay but why would they want to spend in order to do so, when they can take those paydrivers..

2) Skoda are not in the top class but sell lots of Rally2 cars



Imo Skoda are a perfect example of always hiring at least one top driver in the category to help sell the cars. (Lappi, Rovanpera, Solberg, Mikkelsen...). I don't think any of these paid large sums of money to start with Skoda.
Quite opposite to recent MSport WRC policy.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

WRC1 seems more of a vanity project now for M-Sport. They cant compete with the two factory teams without Ford as a full manufacturer team, or afford a top driver in this economic climate.

They could concentrate on WRC2/3 and promote thelr Fiesta Rally2 that way with no detriment.

Credit them for at least giving us a 3rd WRC car to watch but dont expect them to win much.

[RS]

This is actuall a real problem imo, in F1 there is money for each manu point earned. Surely the promoter sells TV "product" to TV providers, sells Allive etc. I get that it's likely not huge sums but how is that in any way channeled back to teams/drivers?


In F1 the prize money is so much for the top teams that together with other sponsorship revenues and the promotion for the brand it's almost a no-brainer for them to compete there.

But I doubt there is much excess in WRC once the costs of running the circus, especially All-Live are taken into account.

[AnttiL]

2) Skoda are not in the top class but sell lots of Rally2 cars

They have also won many WRC2 titles.

[cali]

In F1 the prize money is so much for the top teams that together with other sponsorship revenues and the promotion for the brand it's almost a no-brainer for them to compete there.

But I doubt there is much excess in WRC once the costs of running the circus, especially All-Live are taken into account.Yet still many teams are really struggling financially in F1

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why M-Sport wants to stay in WRC:

- Maybe the 2022 cars will be more privateer-friendly?

With prices down from a rumoured €800,000 to €500,000, but with likely high running costs and poorer reliability. I dont expect many takers.

And sadly Extreme-E is already pulling in the rich kids with its futuristic, trendy, 'off-road racing'.

[RS]

Yet still many teams are really struggling financially in F1

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

Yes, as I said 'top teams'

But all teams get tens of millions.

[RS]

They have also won many WRC2 titles.

That is true but it's not related to the discussion which was about why M-Sport compete in the 'Rally 1' class or whatever it's called.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They already have the WRC cars, and have invested in upgrades, so they might as well run them for their final eligible season in 2021.

And with the driver deals they shouldnt make a loss, even if it doesnt actually make a profit or get any great results.

[abcrally]

There will be at least three Fiesta WRC's at Arctic Rally Finland. Could be even four if Tuohino manages to rent his car.

[satukata]

There will be at least three Fiesta WRC's at Arctic Rally Finland. Could be even four if Tuohino manages to rent his car.

Where you got this info? Suninen wasn´t sure in Monte when spoke to Finnish media?

[Andre Oliveira]

It looks Tuohino can drive himself.

[djip]

Very valid pont. At first i wondered why on earth would MSport register this year if they were to concentrate on the new 2022 car - a few events here and there would have been enough. If indeed they are breakeven with their current line-up, so why not ?
Howezver I am really uhsure now that they will even make it to 2022's top class. Someone said in this thread that WRC1 was Malcolm's vanity project - it may be true. Business-wise MSport would be better off concentrating on regaining its market share for the lower classes. This has been eroding slowly, with a high acceleration lately. Not good when you run a business ! focus on your fundamentals !

[AnttiL]

Very valid pont. At first i wondered why on earth would MSport register this year if they were to concentrate on the new 2022 car - a few events here and there would have been enough. If indeed they are breakeven with their current line-up, so why not ?
Howezver I am really uhsure now that they will even make it to 2022's top class. Someone said in this thread that WRC1 was Malcolm's vanity project - it may be true. Business-wise MSport would be better off concentrating on regaining its market share for the lower classes. This has been eroding slowly, with a high acceleration lately. Not good when you run a business ! focus on your fundamentals !

To get P1 status, M-Sport must enter all rallies with two cars. If they would do just a few events here and there they would probably not be shown on TV?

[denkimi]

Yes, as I said 'top teams'

But all teams get tens of millions.
In formula one teams pay an entry fee based on the amount on points they collected last year. The more points, the more they pay the year after.

But they get money according to their position in the constructors standings and some other deals they made in the past.

Ferrari gets about 200 million, while torro rosso "only" got 52 million.

So even the smallest f1 teams have the same or bigger budgets than the biggest wrc teams.

That is why i keep saying we have to get rid of the need for manufacturers approval. Everyone should be able to build a wrc car, as long as its according to the rules. Not just official car manufacturers, who often have different goals and interests.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

On the Dirtfish video summary of RMC, David Evans stated M-Sport cannot afford any more big crashes as they dont have many more WRC chassis' available.

Knowing this situation wont make it any easier for their drivers to push to the limit this year.

I also wonder if this is why they didnt put the upgraded engines in yet in case they got destroyed so early in the year ?

[Andre Oliveira]

https://www.ewrc-results.com/cars-owners/69-ford-fiesta-wrc-17/

#1 M-Sport
#2 Lorenzo Bertelli
#3 M-Sport
#4 M-Sport
#5 OT Racing
#6 JanPro Racing
#7 M-Sport
#8 M-Sport
#9 M-Sport
#10 Armando Pereira
#11 Destroyed
#12 R+ SPORT

[abcrally]

Where you got this info? Suninen wasn´t sure in Monte when spoke to Finnish media?

Info from reliable source.
Like I mentioned 3 or 4 Fiesta WRC's. Tuohino will drive with his own car if he can't get it rented. If good customer will show up then Tuohino will drive in Arctic with 'some other rally car'👍

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.ewrc-results.com/cars-owners/69-ford-fiesta-wrc-17/

#1 M-Sport
#2 Lorenzo Bertelli
#3 M-Sport
#4 M-Sport
#5 OT Racing
#6 JanPro Racing
#7 M-Sport
#8 M-Sport
#9 M-Sport
#10 Armando Pereira
#11 Destroyed
#12 R+ SPORT

Just 12 in total... what a difference compared to the original Fiesta WRC:

In it's five years (2011-2016) there were 25 works Fiesta WRC's and 62 built in total. Yes, 62 !

https://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo/13-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-rrc/?car=1456

[Andre Oliveira]

54. The 61 and 62 numeration was different.

[pantealex]

Just 12 in total... what a difference compared to the original Fiesta WRC:

In it's five years (2011-2016) there were 25 works Fiesta WRC's and 62 built in total. Yes, 62 !

https://www.ewrc-results.com/carinfo/13-ford-fiesta-rs-wrc-rrc/?car=1456

Older was way cheaper...

With same price newer one would also sell god amounts

I believe situation is same with R5 compared to Rally2, older was way more popular

[AnttiL]

Good article about M-Sport's current situation and future in the WRC.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-m-sports-right-to-sacrifice-2021-title-shot-for-2022/

[AnttiL]

Older was way cheaper...

I think there was also some restrictions on where to run the 2017 WRC cars, including the rule in 2017 that the cars must always be entered by a factory team.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good article about M-Sport's current situation and future in the WRC.

https://dirtfish.com/rally/why-m-sports-right-to-sacrifice-2021-title-shot-for-2022/

Have a read all you armchair experts constantly slagging off the team and it's drivers and get into the real world.

[T16]

Have a read all you armchair experts constantly slagging off the team and it's drivers and get into the real world.

Haven’t read it yet Eddie, but whatever it says, it’s not going to make your boy Gus any faster.
Or fast at all, for that matter.

[EstWRC]

whats the deal here lately with some members getting offensive or personal when others have a different opinion.

[AnttiL]

Have a read all you armchair experts constantly slagging off the team and it's drivers and get into the real world.

So you're a professional rally driver and not an armchair expert?

I've been saying all along I was happy to see Suninen being on the pace, meaning the Fiesta can still challenge the other cars.

I still don't think Greensmith will ever challenge anyone.

I think we all here love M-Sport.

[doubled1978]

whats the deal here lately with some members getting offensive or personal when others have a different opinion.

Internet rules. In the real world those guys usually find out the hard way they were talking when they should have been listening.
Simply being polite and accepting the opinions of others is a basic sign of being an adult, these days the internet allows to much to hide behind.

[mknight]

Have a read all you armchair experts constantly slagging off the team and it's drivers and get into the real world.

I don't see why you need to have a tone like this, but that was mentioned already.

Thing is, I don't remember anyone saying they don't understand MSport situation. But that doesn't mean we are and should be happy about it.

In the article there isn't really much new compared to what has been discussed here forever.

Sure they write off this season to focus on 2022 development, that's perfectly understandable.

What is a bit less understandable is how Malcom is seemingly totally convinced they have a top car atm and only miss a driver. From the outside it is very hard to see much proof of that, (almost) one stage in massive rain...and before that rarely any top speed in 2020. If he really thinks that it shows what he thinks about Suninen and Lappi. I think that he either just talks up his product or means that if he had driver and money for development they could be up there.

That leads to the next point discussed in detail here. To get top car for 2022 they might need an experienced driver at some point in development, but more importantly need to attract a top driver for 2022. The last part Wilson say they will try. Might be interesting silly season then since afaik both Tanak and Neuville are out of contract.

Finally what I voiced is how do they motivate the team when all they get is crash on first stage and Greensmith behind Rally2 cars. That actual does seem to be a problem since also he mentioned how they worked so hard to get to Monte. What people here suggested is that MSport could have one top driver to show the car speed without having to pay. Malcolm says that would need "x millions of pounds". I find it hard to believe that drivers like Meeke, Mikkelsen, Paddon or Lappi would ask for that for a few stats or even a season this year. From Suninen and Lappis comments it rather seems it's Malcolm asking those sums from them.

[AnttiL]

What people here suggested is that MSport could have one top driver to show the car speed without having to pay. Malcolm says that would need "x millions of pounds". I find it hard to believe that drivers like Meeke, Mikkelsen, Paddon or Lappi would ask for that for a few stats or even a season this year. From Suninen and Lappis comments it rather seems it's Malcolm asking those sums from them.

It's not just the driver salary, but what it costs to run the car throughout the season. This is what the current M-Sport drivers are more or less funding by themselves, in addition to paying their own salary.

[cali]

I'm a big M-Sport fan but not necessarily Greensmith fan. I also understand why it is how it is at the moment but stating these things doesn't make Gus any faster. My all hopes are laid to engine upgrade, Fourmaux and Suninen. We all know Gus isn't there because of his raw talent.

It's painful to see what M-Sport goes through atm but hoping for the best in 2022 and Tänak (or even both Tänak and Neuville) behind the wheel of a Ford once again as we all know Hyundai could be still leaving the sport.

Being a fan though doesn't mean you lose your head and judgement (yes, I'm looking at you Eddie)

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[M3 Jambo]

Not sure what is going to change for MSport for 2022 that's going to provide the budget to test & develop the car sufficiently and allow for one of more top line drivers to sign for them. Given the worldwide automotive climate I can't see Ford investing heavily, they could have done it before now and wouldn't do it to keep Ogier, so unless a big sponsor is waiting in the wings I don't see how it's going to happen unfortunately.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

So you're a professional rally driver and not an armchair expert?

I've been saying all along I was happy to see Suninen being on the pace, meaning the Fiesta can still challenge the other cars.

I still don't think Greensmith will ever challenge anyone.

I think we all here love M-Sport.

The 'experts' I was talking about dont include you.

Its those who take no account of the position the team find themselves in and also the drivers they can afford and their own pressures too.

I'm just a fan too so I dont slag any team or driver if I dont know the full situation. But with M-Sport there's just no excuse - its common knowledge. Yet still certain people just dont want to understand and prefer to demean and belittle them.

Those same people are those making nasty and abusive comments because they know they have been shown up for what they are.

[Mirek]

What is a bit less understandable is how Malcom is seemingly totally convinced they have a top car atm and only miss a driver.

This is IMHO relatively simple. If they had a top car they would not miss a top driver.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Gerard Quinn @WRCgerardquinn

Message to the "experts" from the voice of success in motorsport.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Es_4mRoXEAEWe6Z?format=jpg&name=small

[dimviii]

the message i took from this ,is that even M sport lucks the budget,or even is at a danger position economic wise,the car can compete for championships.
Some experts here said plenty of times the opposite= its impossible with luck of money vs toyota/hyundai to compete.
I am confused now...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Suninen has budget & future worries after Monte Carlo crash: :(

https://www.explica.co/suninen-my-accident-at-the-montercarlo-draws-another-question/

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/mikkelsen-m-sport-could-be-place-to-be-for-2022/

Good to read it was only the money/deal that prevented him from joining MSport in 2021, nothing to do with not liking the team or car.

[seb_sh]

I think most people on the forum understand the situation, the level of knowledge on this forum is still quite high. In the end it's a financial reality that the team needs pay drivers to fund the season. That's sad and disappointing but it's not MSport's fault in my opinion. Besides this i've seen some very nasty comments on "mainstream" news websites. Those comments are very obtuse and basically assume that MSport chose Greensmith over other drivers mentioned previously. In my opinion the criticism should be directed to WRC itself. Essentially there are only 2 manufacturers interested, we'll see with the new rules...

[AndyRAC]

In my opinion the criticism should be directed to WRC itself. Essentially there are only 2 manufacturers interested, we'll see with the new rules...

Exactly! All these comments, and expert opinions never ask why M-Sport require 'pay drivers' and why we only have 2 proper Manufacturers. And will it be any better with the new rules?

[Franky]

But why hasn't M-Sport managed to secure a big sponsor over all these years?

[M3 Jambo]

Not sure there are any big sponsors around since Abu Dhabi & Qatar departed the sport. I suspect the majority of both Hyundai / Toyota's budgets come from the manufacturers themselves.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Suninen has budget & future worries after Monte Carlo crash: :(

https://www.explica.co/suninen-my-accident-at-the-montercarlo-draws-another-question/

No wonder Millener was pretty angry at Suninen saying, "It really is a great kick in the teeth. The intention was to reach the finish line with both cars and we didn't even get there on one stage. And after everything we've done to be here . Just before we started racing we said this is a long rally (so that he would take it easy)"

[Crazy J]

But why hasn't M-Sport managed to secure a big sponsor over all these years?

This is one of the main questions related to WRC. It would be just too easy to say that also F1 has less sponsors now than 10 years ago because all sponsors have gone to formula e. Currently some of circuit racing formats have actually good amount of sponsors and competitors, e.g. prototypes and GTs. Also companies from certain geographical areas could be more keen to provide sponsorship than others. Or how about highlighting the car or race number ownership they have in nascar, could it work in WRC? ;)

[Mirek]

I think you omit the main reason - results. The main factor in getting sponsorship deals is offering them success. Without top driver there isn't reasonable success which would attract the sponsors.

[M3 Jambo]

MSport did reasonably well in 2017 & 2018 but that didn't manifest in sponsorship to replace Red Bull.

[AnttiL]

MSport did reasonably well in 2017 & 2018 but that didn't manifest in sponsorship to replace Red Bull.

I think it was more of Ogier's personal sponsorship, it went with him from VW to M-Sport and to Citroen, and then dissolved with Toyota.

[Mirek]

MSport did reasonably well in 2017 & 2018 but that didn't manifest in sponsorship to replace Red Bull.

Yes but the deals don't come themselves. There is a lot of work behind that and a lot of connections and usually things don't just go easy and well. For sure M-Sport can't be in a position of the carmakers but IMHO they had something of a value in hand at that time for the negotiations - now there is little of that left.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The sponsor issue is nothing new.

Most times M-Sport has had a 'big sponsor' on their car it has been connected to a driver (ie. Repsol, Abu Dhabi, Red Bull).

Even when it was just them vs Citroen (and M-Sport won two Manu titles) it was still only Castrol & BP.

But then they had full Ford backing...

[AndyRAC]

The sponsor issue is nothing new.

Most times M-Sport has had a 'big sponsor' on their car it has been connected to a driver (ie. Repsol, Abu Dhabi, Red Bull).

Even when it was just them vs Citroen (and M-Sport won two Manu titles) it was still only Castrol & BP.

But then they had full Ford backing...

Ford have had ample opportunity to fully back M-Sport - I'm sure some of the big bosses were at Monte in 2017, and seemed impressed. But not enough to provide full backing. Nascar and the IMSA/WEC programme took priority.
You have to go back to the days of the original Focus and sponsorship from Martini, and with proper backing from Ford who were willing to pay McRae, then Sainz mega money. Different times back then.

The sport can't pull in anything like that anymore - because it's simply not visible enough. You could also argue it's not too relevant anymore.

[RS]

The sport can't pull in anything like that anymore - because it's simply not visible enough.

All-Live is fantastic for the die-hard fans but is any of the live coverage available free-to-air? In the UK we only have the highlights programme on the Monday evening following the event. I realise the coverage costs a lot to produce but if they could at least get the powerstage in front of more eyeballs perhaps it might entice more to take the All-Live product.

[abcrally]

All-Live is fantastic for the die-hard fans but is any of the live coverage available free-to-air? In the UK we only have the highlights programme on the Monday evening following the event. I realise the coverage costs a lot to produce but if they could at least get the powerstage in front of more eyeballs perhaps it might entice more to take the All-Live product.

The same company produces both WRC+ All-Live and the TV programmes to each countries. Just need to buy rights from Promoter to show them free-to-air on TV.

From the next event they produce Live TV programmes from 6 stages out of 10.

[AnttiL]

Does Red Bull TV still show one live stage for free?

[tc10a]

"Servus TV" in Austria, in Germany and i think also in Switzerland shows live stages in free-tv or free live stream on their website.
At Monte they had 3 stages and will do it at every round.

https://www.servustv.com/videos/aa-1s5mu79r51w11/

[Crazy J]

So, lack of visibility and success mentioned as a main reasons for not getting sponsorship. It could be very much so, but would still repeat the earlier comparison to prototype and GT circuit racing, e.g. IMSA or ELMS. European Le Mans Series having over full grids of seemingly well sponsored cars. Have some doubts that e.g. ELMS would have better global or local visibility than WRC. Yet don't know how much per km is the cost of running LMP vs. WRC, but running LMP can't be affordable especially with the amount of crashes they are normally having.

[RS]

Does Red Bull TV still show one live stage for free?

i don’t know but they didn’t on Monte.

[SubaruNorway]

All live runs through discovery+ also. From what i can see the WRC has almost twice as many viewers now than in the early 2000's, add social media views on top of the 800 million+ you can't be far off 1.5 billion. F1 at 1.9 billion tv viewers so maybe it should have been even more.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Circuit racing coverage is probably much cheaper to produce with cameras around a single track showing different race catagories for hours over a weekend.

The UK guys are right - all rallying is almost invisible here to all but the hardcore fans. The average viewer sees very little coverage. Last season Elfyn Evans was fighting for the WDC but I bet 99% of the UK public have ever heard of him.

BTCC is live with all the support races for 8 hours on a Sunday - and all the grids are full of sponsor-backed cars.

If the coverage was there then M-Sport would find the sponsors.

[meh]

Last season Elfyn Evans was fighting for the WDC but I bet 99% of the UK public have ever heard of him.

Probably every WRC level rally-driver is more famous in Estonia than his own home-country. Because of media coverage.
(sorry for off-topic)

[Oppositelock]

For Germany the answers is quite simple. We have a divided TV landscape with state owned stations (paid in parts by a monthly fee of ca. 18 Euros from everybody who owns a TV) and private stations.

The state owned stations ARD (and it's local subsidiaries) and ZDF basically only care for German competitors. They i. e. cover Ski Jumping at any place as long as a German is flying as well. When Volkswagen was in the WRC - stupidly without a German driver - they only got coverage for ads in exchange. Even Rallye Deutschland was only covered by the local station in Trier area. To ask for a licence fee is the best way to get ignored completely.

The private stations only cover events when it's a business for them. Meaning, when they have to pay a licence fee of i. e. 100,000 Euros (plus maybe the costs of a team travelling to the event) they need to make at least something more than 100,000 Euros from ads related to this event. Because no outside brand has any interest in WRC, that money has to come from the manufacturers/teams/sponsors involved. Thanks mostly to VW, Sport1 and even RTL for a while broadcasted WRC. Today, none of this three parties seems to be interested in TV coverage in Germany. And believe me, Sport1 really tried.

End of story.

[skarderud]

If i was the boss of WRC+/redbull media/whatever they call themselves, i would offer a seasons highlights for free at all the biggest tv-channels in in every country.
Easy to get it back thru wissible sponsorship in the wiew.
Then you have a fundation to sell the next year, and the wiewers want to se it.


Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[lluisva555]

Our latest post, the story of the aero design of the Ford Fiesta WRC in 2016. Hope you like it!

https://www.wrcwings.tech/2021/02/02/the-success-of-the-aero-design-of-the-ford-fiesta-wrc/

[AnttiL]

https://www.rallit.fi/brittitallilta-pitkasta-aikaa-hyvia-uutisia-uusi-wrc-hybridi-valmis-testeihin-kesan-kynnyksella/

Millener says they have the first Rally1 chassis ready in a couple of weeks but testing won't start before May or June. Hybrid unit is still missing.

[EstWRC]

M-SPORT’S 2022 RALLY1 CAR COULD RUN THIS MONTH

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sports-2022-rally1-car-could-run-this-month/


DirtFish still believes that 2022 Rally1 car will be based on Ford’s Puma.

Wilson wouldn’t be drawn on it, beyond saying: “You’ll know more when we start testing – I’d be surprised if the car looked too different to the one we’re using now…”

[pantealex]

Dirt news says could run February

Millener (post #3440) says May-June

We will see...

[AnttiL]

Running in Feb, testing (with a full test day on a stage) in May?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Malcolm Wilson interview:
https://youtu.be/juQ1Ko2Fndg

[Harry hairpin]

If Hyundai pull out that could be good news for M sport both in terms of drivers availability and desire to drive for a team rather than spend a year on the sidelines, its also one less competitor so potentially better results.
Julian Porter said on a podcast recently he could see Tanak returning to M sport as it was his spiritual home.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Wilson sounds determined and confident of having a strong driver line-up for 2022.

M-Sport's good history with new cars could be a key factor in attracting any of the top driver's, even if Hyundai stays.

[TypeR]

Malcolm Wilson interview:
https://youtu.be/juQ1Ko2Fndg
Very good interview. A lot of new information about 22' car's tech side..
- 5-speed gearbox
- back to stick shift(instead of paddleshift)
- will be safest wrc cars ever made

[AnttiL]

Very good interview. A lot of new information about 22' car's tech side..
- 5-speed gearbox
- back to stick shift(instead of paddleshift)
- will be safest wrc cars ever made

None of this was new information

[EstWRC]

stick shift was news to me, i must have been under the rock then...first time hearing it

[TypeR]

Indeed.. (found spring 2020 DF interview w Matton)
Somehow hadn't heard that..

[AnttiL]

I have to admit I was wrong. I also tried to search for a source mentioning manual shifting, but I guess I just assumed all along that they are going back to that. Sorry.

This is the closest implying of it:

"five-speed transmission very similar in concept to the current Rally2 rules"

https://mailchi.mp/fia/jja3q9igfw-1470585

This is from March 2020.

[doubled1978]

stick shift was news to me, i must have been under the rock then...first time hearing it

Me too, I hadn’t heard that. I have to say I wonder what the motivation for that would be? I presume they mean a mechanical sequential shift.

EDIT. Cost I suppose.

[AnttiL]

In here Millener talks about hydraulic systems which cost around £40,000 so maybe the paddle shift could also be a way to make the cars cheaper.

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/148682/neuville-doesnt-see-point-of-s***-2022-wrc-rules

[TypeR]

and yet they put paddle shift to nearly 10 y.o Berlingo, rather put parking sensors :D

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Also Wilson wouldnt confirm Fiesta or Puma as their 2022 'base' car.

But I see today Suninen was given a Puma road car...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Fiesta WRC's big engine upgrade is coming in Croatia according to Gus Greensmith.

[AnttiL]

The Fiesta WRC's big engine upgrade is coming in Croatia according to Gus Greensmith.

At least it's not yet in Arctic Rally, but it has been tested, told by Suninen in a Finnish podcast

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EunaY05XUAI2hqe?format=jpg&name=large

[Kenneth]

That looks like someone's wet dream..

[Fast Eddie WRC]

M-Sport interviews: https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly90YWxrYXRpdmUtbXNwb3J0LmNhc3Rvcy5jb20vZm VlZD91dWlkPTVmMDhhZGZkOWY5NDU?sa=X&ved=0CAYQrrcFahcKEwj4n-7Ah_TuAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAQ

[M3 Jambo]

Given Ford have just announced they will not manufacture any ICE passenger cars in Europe in less than 9 years time, I think the chances of them channelling more funding into the WRC programme anytime soon are pretty slim.

[mknight]

Not if the hybrids get turned into full EVs in 3 years.

[M3 Jambo]

Agreed, not so sure that's likely to happen though.

[Francis44]

Not if the hybrids get turned into full EVs in 3 years.

Ford is a dead end for M-Sport, and as been for a decade now. The sooner they realise that the better.

On too another oem.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eu1MmKxXcAArnWg?format=jpg&name=large

[mknight]

He could certainly start some events with them, why not.

So far in Polo he has same speed or better than with Fabia..... i20 clearly didn't work for him. Imo he would be faster than Greensmith straight away.
The main long-term problem for him is as I mentioned before consistency in staying on the road.

In case he pays at MSport I hope for their sake that he pays by part destroyed and not a fixed sum per rally.

[TypeR]

Wilson ain't stupid.. :D
All the repairing money goes to ,,Tänak/Neuville 2022 fund''

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Test clips
https://www.instagram.com/s/aGlnaGxpZ2h0OjE3ODc5MDI2Njc5MDk4MDcx?igshid=1pnw9m djg3v21&story_media_id=2514760202587299430_194419516

[cali]

Bodyshop guys have quaranteed overtime duties if this Gryazin thing happens

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

[bluuford]

Bodyshop guys have quaranteed overtime duties if this Gryazin thing happens

Sent from my GM1913 using Tapatalk

Just simply said, bodyshop guys will be quaranteened in workshop for a long time:P

[Sulland]

Could it be this Russian, and not Gryazin.
Is he a joker maybe?

https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/2113-radik-shaymiev/

[pantealex]

Could it be this Russian, and not Gryazin.
Is he a joker maybe?

https://www.ewrc-results.com/profile/2113-radik-shaymiev/

It was 100% Gryazin who tested the car, he has RedBull overalls.

[AnttiL]

And Gryazin posted about the test on his social media account.

[Lancia Stratos]

https://twitter.com/OfficialWRC/status/1364139876657074176

[AnttiL]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-and-red-bull-join-forces-once-more

Red Bull is supporting Fourmaux this season, starting from Arctic Rally Finland. And in Croatia he will make his WRC car debut.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-and-red-bull-join-forces-once-more

Red Bull is supporting Fourmaux this season, starting from Arctic Rally Finland. And in Croatia he will make his WRC car debut.

Great to see Red Bull back on a rally car. They must think as highly of Fourmaux as I do.

[Francis44]

https://www.m-sport.co.uk/single-post/m-sport-and-red-bull-join-forces-once-more

Red Bull is supporting Fourmaux this season, starting from Arctic Rally Finland. And in Croatia he will make his WRC car debut.

Sebastien 3.0 in the making.

[TypeR]

Sebastien 3.0 in the making.
Let's take a break from dominating french guys.. let's say for 5 years :D

But happy to see that things are getting better for M-Sport!

[rp]

"Clearly, they have seen the same Ogier-esque performances in Adrien as we have."

Have not seen this kind of performance at all! One ERC win and that´s it. Wait and see, but can not understand this kind of hype...

[Jarek Z]

Great to see Red Bull back on a rally car.

They should re-use the old Red Bull livery from Baumschlager's Focus WRC!
https://www.ewrc-results.com/image/88920/

[mknight]

"Clearly, they have seen the same Ogier-esque performances in Adrien as we have."

Have not seen this kind of performance at all! One ERC win and that´s it. Wait and see, but can not understand this kind of hype...

Same here. He has done good on 3 slippery tarmac rallies. How does that qualify him for doing great on mostly gravel championship I wonder.

He certainly might become great on gravel, but so far there is little to show.

[Lancia Stratos]

Same here. He has done good on 3 slippery tarmac rallies. How does that qualify him for doing great on mostly gravel championship I wonder.

He certainly might become great on gravel, but so far there is little to show.

Well, they're not going to say someone who is bringing a considerable amount of money into the team is rubbish, are they?

[EstWRC]

at least he looks much promising than Camilli who was also another Ogier in Wilsons mind back then

[pantealex]

I´m happy that M-Sport is getting some support.

[TypeR]

Maybe not right thread but anyways..

Let's hope that people have enough money and resources.. and there should be awesome ,,next generation,, of young drivers, who are (stepping) in WRC cars this season..
-Rovanperä
-Solberg
-Loubet
-Greensmith
-Fourmaux
-Veiby/Huttunen/Gryazin/Katsuta

*not gonna argue about their pure speed or smth, but just new guys to top cars..

[djip]

Same here. He has done good on 3 slippery tarmac rallies. How does that qualify him for doing great on mostly gravel championship I wonder.

He certainly might become great on gravel, but so far there is little to show.

I think the hype with Fourmeaux is (i) he was quick, albeit not astonishing, out of the box with very little rally experience (remember he is a medical student - not something that give you boatloads of cahs and/or time - on a leave to try his luck in rallying) (ii) he keeps improving, slowly but steadily.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

New Regs 2022 Rally1 car can give M-Sport a fighting chance...

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/155189/msport-ford-targeting-22-rules-shakeup-chance/

[the sniper]

Given how much money Red Bull pour into its two F1 teams and single seater juniors, it'd be fantastic if M-Sport could become a full Red Bull team in 2022. While I don't know why that wouldn't have appealed to Red Bull before, at least there should be some RB money freed up by Ogier leaving. It seems M-Sport have been actively trying to get their hands on that budget at least, going by Richard Milner saying "Work to reignite this partnership with Red Bull has been ongoing for quite a while behind the scenes, and it is fantastic to see it now come to fruition." I wonder if M-Sport committing to the Rally1 regs was tied to some behind the scenes agreement that WRC Promoter/Red Bull would support them if they did so...?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good shout Sniper. They do seem super-committed to 2022 and very bullish about their new car (if you pardon the pun ;) )

[er88]

Good shout Sniper. They do seem super-committed to 2022 and very bullish about their new car (if you pardon the pun ;) )Decent backing from Ford despite what many believe. Upto Msport to attract a title sponsor, and they've failed to deliver for so many years in that regard. Hopefully RB can properly come on board next year and onwards...., and this isn't just a random promotion of a driver.

[AndyRAC]

I get the feeling this is Red Bull backing an up and coming driver - adding to their athlete programme; rather than team sponsorship. Like 2017 Ogier had Red Bull livery, Tanak didn't as he wasn't/ isn't a Red Bull athlete.

[AnttiL]

Decent backing from Ford despite what many believe.

I think Ford always supports when they develop a car, but running the yearly program is always up to M-Sport by themselves.

[wyler]

Decent backing from Ford despite what many believe. Upto Msport to attract a title sponsor, and they've failed to deliver for so many years in that regard. Hopefully RB can properly come on board next year and onwards...., and this isn't just a random promotion of a driver.

I think Red Bull as the promoter is not really pleased to see one of the "future guys" going around in top class car with the Monster logo all over the bonnet.

[the sniper]

I think Red Bull as the promoter is not really pleased to see one of the "future guys" going around in top class car with the Monster logo all over the bonnet.

They had their chance... I'd love to see Monster come in properly and give Red Bull a kick up the arse.

[skarderud]

I get the feeling this is Red Bull backing an up and coming driver - adding to their athlete programme; rather than team sponsorship. Like 2017 Ogier had Red Bull livery, Tanak didn't as he wasn't/ isn't a Red Bull athlete.Mikkelsen has RB deal, and is working towards a deal with M-sport.
Probably a connection here?

Sent fra min SM-G950F via Tapatalk

[wyler]

They had their chance... I'd love to see Monster come in properly and give Red Bull a kick up the arse.

they had, but until someone else came they were the brand of rallying without spending any money (in the last times). now they have again to enter the field too! for sure is good for the sport to have this sponsor battle (and for m-sport if they nail the big deal!)

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/159027259_4328562807173113_2119567194525510738_o.j pg?_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=KcgnmAzuuRgAX_uYonh&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=04c1aa4e42e49b20c003060c21f16c79&oe=606C7F03
https://scontent.fopo3-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/159336865_4328562887173105_4977988758553568841_o.j pg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=REPbIK1EbJwAX_ccNb_&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-2.fna&oh=d26733496932a2f7bc6153056a8d51d0&oe=606EE080
https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/158720467_4328562903839770_907705097834517834_o.jp g?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=CY-HhTS944gAX--F4xm&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=b8dc0c0f9daa72653ce07dcfa6861a4d&oe=606B38D6
https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/158946480_4328566750506052_4972360924061379802_o.j pg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=sjHu_D-S-ncAX9DpQSo&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=624cb69507a2ab8bb3b999c88de346b0&oe=606BAD44
https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/158955724_4328566790506048_4403067269250886621_o.j pg?_nc_cat=109&ccb=1-3&_nc_sid=b9115d&_nc_ohc=Wt-CuR--l20AX9jB_Bg&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=e0bfdcfb2599a340827e3cd86dc9a95e&oe=606E3D50

[Andre Oliveira]

Sound of the beast: https://twitter.com/fordperformance/status/1369302230185152521?s=21

[TypeR]

Fiesta rear light..

[Andre Oliveira]

https://dirtfish.com/rally/wrc/m-sport-begins-testing-its-2022-rally1-car/?fbclid=IwAR3kKR1F6mQlb_B15grH_ee5TqHj3bHgNzqRgD0M rPKxRGJukLLN7g8UU2c

[T16]

Sound of the beast: https://twitter.com/fordperformance/status/1369302230185152521?s=21

Nice that Ford tweeted it too... wonder if they’ve grown a set and are going to get a bit more involved.

[lmmjvss]

Werent the 2022 cars supposed to be rollcages + panels/aerokits? It looks like a production-based Fiesta in these pics.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They said a while ago they would use a test mule at first.

[Mirek]

Werent the 2022 cars supposed to be rollcages + panels/aerokits? It looks like a production-based Fiesta in these pics.

Both options are possible.

[TypeR]

too early for silly season 22' and ,,one of Hyundai's drivers seen at London airport..'' ? :D

[SubaruNorway]

They said they would look pretty much the same, It's just like the RX2's are built almost i would believe

[1988senna]

Is the new car Puma or Fiesta ? When can we get the picture of the new car

[pantealex]

Is the new car Puma or Fiesta ? When can we get the picture of the new car

Test mule is Fiesta, 2022 Rally1 car could be other...

Testing starts today, so pictures very soon.