M-Sport Ford World Rally Teams

[GigiGalliNo1]

Any one can post up a Side by Side old and new Aero for the rear?

[Augury]

Any one can post up a Side by Side old and new Aero for the rear?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/showthread.php?28825-M-Sport-Ford-World-Rally-Teams&p=1186180&viewfull=1#post1186180

[SubaruNorway]

I guess that weird swing to the lower part of the bumper is to make the air over the rear cleaner mid corner to get a better effect from the diffusor and a more stable rear in fast corners?

[lluisva555]

It seems a kind of side prolongation of the diffuser, maybe to better release the high-turbulence tire wake, or to make it less sensitive to rough terrains

[AnttiL]

Suninen confirmed for all remaining rallies of the year

[Watson]

Suninen confirmed for all remaining rallies of the year

Nice. Also probably a very strong indicator he will get a contract for next year.

[rallyfiend]

Nice. Also probably a very strong indicator he will get a contract for next year.

Probably more an indication that M-sport have no other potential customers lined up to make a viable third car to help with the points...

[ESTR]

They said it if they will get a chance for manu title again he will be in every rally for second part of the season. It's only 28 points difference, so not a surprise.

[NickRally]

I love the look of this, pure purpose:

http://www.geocities.ws/rallytech/aero/ford/fiesta_ogier_finland_2018_sss_start_small.png

[racerx1979]

Foyota Focaris...

[steve.mandzij]

Foyota Focaris...Toyagen Polaris

[NickRally]

Foyota Focaris...

Being derogatory to a competitor is not the best attitude – in motorsport, people often copy ideas, the question is if they did so without much thinking or if they copied and developed them. Obviously the verdict on the Fiesta in that respect is still out there. Also, as the saying goes, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The rear aero was developed by FP wind-tunnel, not copied.

The M-Sport design was pretty close already and done when they didnt have the fortunes spent by the facory teams.

[nafpaktos]

Yesterday on tha last stage Elfyn slowed down on the last meters of the stage to favor Seb's running order for Saturday.Since the split times are not available to the crews how is possible to knew how much to slow down IF NEEDED?

[steve.mandzij]

Yesterday on tha last stage Elfyn slowed down on the last meters of the stage to favor Seb's running order for Saturday.Since the split times are not available to the crews how is possible to knew how much to slow down IF NEEDED?Guesswork? Is it that hard?

[nafpaktos]

Guesswork? Is it that hard?i think it is!!!

[dupanton]

Yesterday on tha last stage Elfyn slowed down on the last meters of the stage to favor Seb's running order for Saturday.Since the split times are not available to the crews how is possible to knew how much to slow down IF NEEDED?

I think Ogier finished the stage before Evans started it, so they knew exactly which time they needed to have. :)

[nafpaktos]

Thanks dupanton,that makes sense.

[Barreis]

just saw both Wilsons, Malcolm and Matt, at 24h of Spa with Bentley team. it seems that Matt is boss of the team there cos he is giving a statements for tv

[KKS]

He probably in another successful "5 years plan"

[Barreis]

they thought they would win there with bentley cos they were 2nd overall at the moment but they retired after all. they should concentrate where they are best - in rallying. otherwise they could finish like Richards and Prodrive, doing all around stuff and doing nothing in the end (at least not in serious motorsport; if we exclude WorldRX)

[Rally Power]

It’s Bentley who pays for it, why should MSport stop?

[Watson]

Were M-Sport not making money on the WEC cars, they would probably have quit by now. Quite a bit of the funds for making the 2017 WRC Fiesta probably came from the profits of selling the Bentley GT3 cars.

[seb_sh]

They got hired by Bentley to design and build those cars and yes Matthew is the team boss there, he stopped rallying and is handling that part of the business full time.

[Barreis]

i saw his TV statement, he didn't know to explain exactly what was wrong with the car while mechanics were doing the stuff. Malcolm stayed behind and he had to be in Finland to help his team to get better result. this won't help them to keep Ogier in the team.

[lluisva555]

Ogier unhappy with the new aero:
https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/ogier-le-gain-aero-est-plus-un-desavantage-qu-autre-chose-196660.html

And this is our explanation for the new rear wheel arch extensions:
https://wrcwings.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/why-the-new-ford-fiesta-wrc-have-such-big-rear-wheel-arch-extensions/

[spiderem]

Ogier unhappy with the new aero:
https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/ogier-le-gain-aero-est-plus-un-desavantage-qu-autre-chose-196660.html

And this is our explanation for the new rear wheel arch extensions:
https://wrcwings.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/why-the-new-ford-fiesta-wrc-have-such-big-rear-wheel-arch-extensions/

very interesting and informative details about the aero, thanks!

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Nice comparison pic ! :)

https://wrcwings.files.wordpress.com/2018/07/old-new-fiesta-wrc.jpg?w=700

[wrc2017]

Ogier unhappy with the new aero:
https://www.autohebdo.fr/wrc/actualites/ogier-le-gain-aero-est-plus-un-desavantage-qu-autre-chose-196660.html

And this is our explanation for the new rear wheel arch extensions:
https://wrcwings.wordpress.com/2018/07/28/why-the-new-ford-fiesta-wrc-have-such-big-rear-wheel-arch-extensions/

Surely the new aero cant do anything only improve down-force...
I think maybe the SACHS didnt work as he expected, from memory there was alot on technology in those dampers that was VW proprietary.

[spiderem]

any words on Evans and Suninen having the new aero too for Germany?

[AMSS]

Surely the new aero cant do anything only improve down-force...
I think maybe the SACHS didnt work as he expected, from memory there was alot on technology in those dampers that was VW proprietary.

My thoughts exactly, from my understanding it was VW motorsport who mainly used(still uses in WRX) Sachs as a parts supplier and did the majority of development etc. in house.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ogier from the Press Conference pre-Germany:

Q:
Sébastien, Finland was frustrating for you, we all saw that. But crucially you scored more points than your championship rival, Thierry Neuville, which was the objective. However, we could all see that frustration. Tell me about what happened after that? The analysis when you looked at the performance, was there anything that came out of chats with the team? What went wrong?
O:
We would love to exactly know. We have some idea, but we haven´t really worked on it yet. We discussed it of course, but we haven’t had the chance to test it again. We have some idea. Maybe we went in a direction that was wrong somehow. That was clearly the worst performance of the season, for us and the whole team. There was a lot of talk around my error, but that was not the reason. All the cars were not on the same pace as me, more or less, after day one and after the cleaning effects. It’s been a hard weekend, but now we focus on the next one. At least the only positive we could kind of celebrate, but not really a celebration, but to score more points that Thierry. That’s the most important and that’s what we need to achieve at every event.

Q:
I have never seen you analyse data so much, even in media zones, as you did in Finland. Did you find that unusual?
SO:
I have always been someone who likes to win, that you know. And when it’s not going as you want, as planned, I think it’s normal to do everything you can to turn it around. In Finland we tried everything we could and the feeling did improve during the weekend. In fact a bit better. Even on the last stage, the power stage, I was trying hard to get points. I was still finishing P6. So it was not fantastic.

[Watson]

If M-Sport are still interested in the constructors they need to put Meeke in the #2 car and put Evans in an R5 for the remainder of the season and maybe let Evans have a go in car #3 in Wales and maybe Spain. It's risky but it's pretty much the only chance.

[Norm75]

If M-Sport are still interested in the constructors they need to put Meeke in the #2 car and put Evans in an R5 for the remainder of the season and maybe let Evans have a go in car #3 in Wales and maybe Spain. It's risky but it's pretty much the only chance.

Maybe not that simple. Depends if Kris' contract was terminated or if he was just put on gardening leave.
As has been mentioned on here before, there may be lawyers involved. If that is the case, I would hope it is only to get out of an existing contract allowing him to move on, rather than for any other reason, as that might end up being negative for both parties.

[Tauri_J]

If M-Sport are still interested in the constructors they need to put Meeke in the #2 car and put Evans in an R5 for the remainder of the season and maybe let Evans have a go in car #3 in Wales and maybe Spain. It's risky but it's pretty much the only chance.

lol

Meeke would be the last person to put to that car

[wrc2017]

lol

Meeke would be the last person to put to that car
how much do you want to bet..

[ESTR]

Why not? Meeke is great driver, but don't have any chance to prove that. He was in shitty cars all of his life. But that's the price to get to the top.

[Tauri_J]

how much do you want to bet..

Whatever you want

He wont ve driving this year in WRC anymore

[ESTR]

Whatever you want

He wont ve driving this year in WRC anymore

I think that's equal chance of Ogier retiring, Latvala losing a seat at Toyota, Evans probably going back to R5, Paddon going to Citroen, Lappi too, Loeb start to competing again and by the last (joking) VW enter again in championship.

[TWRC]

Why not? Meeke is great driver, but don't have any chance to prove that. He was in shitty cars all of his life. But that's the price to get to the top.
He wasn't in shitty cars all of his life, and many of the cars that were not quite the best have been at least partially developed by him.

[danon]

Why not? Meeke is great driver, but don't have any chance to prove that. He was in shitty cars all of his life. But that's the price to get to the top.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/12_03/8_NopeRat.gif

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Manu's Ch'ship was never realistic this season.

As for Meeke he's still under contract at Citroen, not sacked.

[Watson]

Manu's Ch'ship was never realistic this season.

As for Meeke he's still under contract at Citroen, not sacked.
Too bad.

[EstWRC]

visit to M-sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBfZF7HpnQE&t=

[EstWRC]

this site claims that FIA doesnt accept homologation for the new rear aero https://translate.google.ee/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallyssimo.it%2F2018%2F09%2F05% 2Fproblemi-per-m-sport-la-nuova-aerodinamica-posteriore-non-riceve-lomologazione-fia%2F&edit-text=

[ESTR]

How could he drive with it already? You can't have extra parts on your road car without homologaton and if you got it installed and cops get you you immediately get fine and technical inspection. With WRC is little different and publicy all over the world I think that this is aginst the rules and need to get the fine...

[Rally Power]

this site claims that FIA doesnt accept homologation for the new rear aero https://translate.google.ee/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=et&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rallyssimo.it%2F2018%2F09%2F05% 2Fproblemi-per-m-sport-la-nuova-aerodinamica-posteriore-non-riceve-lomologazione-fia%2F&edit-text=

No one besides that site has mentioned it. Probably they got confused with pairing rule, not knowing Finland/Germany cars can’t be use in Turkey.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/interview/motor-elfyn-evans/

[T16]

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/interview/motor-elfyn-evans/

Good piece.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Autosport on Ford's lack of support:

"I have lost count of the number of times I've talked to Ogier and been left in no doubt his preferred option has always been to stay where he is. But he's made it equally clear that he wanted to see commitment from the Blue Oval.

And when he said commitment, he meant money. Investment. Cash.

We're all very well aware that Ford's stepped up its technical input into this year's car and, yes, there was a bunch of bodyshells handed over at the top of the programme. But that never was and never will be enough.

Ford has reaped praise and pleasure from Sebastien Ogier's time at M-Sport and, as far as I can see, such return remains unwarranted.

Ford of Europe's Gerard Quinn has worked tirelessly to try to tune America into rallying, but the reluctance from Detroit remains astonishing.

For a genuinely small-change cash injection at M-Sport, I believe Ogier would have stayed where he was. If there'd been sensible investment, the Frenchman would have stayed even longer and likely won world championships for fun.

Sitting firmly in front of an open goal, Ford has put the ball so high over the bar it will come down with snow on it.

And when it does come down, Ogier will be long gone and would-be Ford world titles will be written in history.

And they'll be written in French."

[AndyRAC]

Ford 'talk the talk', but won't 'walk the walk'......Their priorities are in US based series., and not WRC; though they'll jump on any bandwagon should M-Sport win anything.

I certainly don't blame Ogier for leaving; he just wants proper commitment from Ford. They can't - so he's gone somewhere were he will.

[Andre Oliveira]

http://cdn-webimages.wimages.net/0519d0c5fb2214150602e0e29d6fcb2b367e9-wm.jpg?v=3

[tomhlord]

It's a shame, this whole scenario.

But cheers Andre, a few years ago Ogier at M-Sport winning a championship would not have been possible.

Ford US is ditching the Fiesta and Fiesta ST (heck, even the new Focus will only be available in quasi-SUV 'Active' trim) and the Ford Performance money is from the US, not the EU. If the Mustang was being rallied like the Gran Turismo concept, then I'm sure the FP would chuck more money in, but that's not possible.

[Andre Oliveira]

We will have the old M-Sport with young wolfs. I would like something like Suninen, Tidemand and Sordo.

[Essaj]

We need some other manufacturer to jump in with M-Sport maybe Subaru? :)

[Simmi]

Ford Europe are in a tough situation right now financially which probably isn't helping matters either.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I see the new Mk4 Focus being advertised non-stop on TV here. I dont remember the previous ones getting/needing this promotion.

Fiesta WRC success isnt going to help the other models.

[Tarmop]

Not even Fiesta`s own success, but brand in general.

[itix]

We need some other manufacturer to jump in with M-Sport maybe Subaru? :)That's exactly what I've thought for ages.

Seriously Malcom. Find someone who is willing to pay you for your services. Some free body shells every year is peanuts for a multi billion dollar company like Ford.

I get that there is some emotional connection but one sided affection doesn't work. You are giving them a huuuuuuge amount of free advertising and they are not responding.

There must be so many manufacturers that can actually pay you for what you are doing. Find them and sign a deal.

NEW chinese MG for instance? Mitsubishi? Lancia or someone in Fiat group?

There must be someone.

[deephouse]

Or start developing his own car brand

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Not gonna happen now with the 2017-spec Fiesta WRC already in use.

Maybe down the line when the next car regs are announced.

[AnttiL]

So Malcolm would be ready to ditch/reset his R1-R5 business for the sake of getting more manufacturer support in the WRC category? Don't think so...also, there's probably no manufacturers interested in joining in at the moment.

[Essaj]

So Malcolm would be ready to ditch/reset his R1-R5 business for the sake of getting more manufacturer support in the WRC category? Don't think so...also, there's probably no manufacturers interested in joining in at the moment.

Fiesta R5 is really outdated so I doubt they are making too many sales on them before they get a proper update (is there actually any coming?) to fight with Skoda, VW and even C3. New manu could also get a R5 from the basis of Fiesta.

[Tarmop]

R5 Fiesta mk8 should be already in works...then there are R1s and R2s, last of them really popular and wouldn`t be surprised, if equally profitable+ you need a good base for those, can`t really do anything from a bad chassis with outdated equipment. Toyota for instance is struggling with its R5 project because there is no suitable engine available.

[AnttiL]

Fiesta R5 is really outdated so I doubt they are making too many sales on them before they get a proper update (is there actually any coming?) to fight with Skoda, VW and even C3. New manu could also get a R5 from the basis of Fiesta.

Old customers are still supported for a long time

[dimviii]

guys the most money are from servicing,not from car new sales.

[Tarmop]

It always is, but to service something, you have to have a good product to sell in the first place.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/139129/ford-ultimatum-failure-led-to-ogier-exit

[Fast Eddie WRC]

If Ford pull the plug again after the end of the season (likely) and M-Sport only have a choice of non-winning pay driver's, those driving for free & loanees, I can really see M.Wilson having every reason to pull out of the WRC.

If Ogier should win the 2018 WDC then going out (on a high) would probably be even more likely.

The achievements of 2017 ('18?) could never be repeated anyway and certainly not without proper Manu and sponsorship backing.

I'm really starting to fear the worst.

[N.O.T]

I can really see M.Wilson having every reason to pull out of the WRC.

why ? he doesn't like money ?

[T16]

why ? he doesn't like money ?

How can he make money by staying in the WRC and developing a car that no one else is buying or (except one or two customers) having serviced?
I’m guessing the potential prize money and sponsorship money doesn’t cover costs of participation?
If the answer is that it promotes the other models they build and sell, then fair enough, but does the WRC car really help to sell the other formulas they sell, it do those cars sell based upon their own success?
I honestly can’t see why m-Sport would stay at this point.... no top driver, no manufacturer support, no main sponsor = lose money.

[tbtstt]

How can he make money by staying in the WRC and developing a car that no one else is buying or (except one or two customers) having serviced?
The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along? The WRC program was the glossy front of the rally side of the company, where the real earning was done by the sale and support of the R5, R2 and R1 Fiestas.

With an increased focus on WRC2 next year the demand for Fiesta R5's will surely still be high and M-Sport still seem to be selling the latest spec Fiesta R5 in decent numbers (it is surely the most numerous R5 car now?).

[tomhlord]

"We're so good, we can get on overall WRC podiums. Everything we learn there filters down into all other rally projects. Now, please sign on the dotted line for a new R5 so you can compete in a local Austrian rally."

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along? The WRC program was the glossy front of the rally side of the company, where the real earning was done by the sale and support of the R5, R2 and R1 Fiestas.

With an increased focus on WRC2 next year the demand for Fiesta R5's will surely still be high and M-Sport still seem to be selling the latest spec Fiesta R5 in decent numbers (it is surely the most numerous R5 car now?).

Sorry but if you look at the main R5 championships and especially in Europe, they are now dominated by the Skoda Fabia R5. The Fiesta may be numerous in total but the sales in the last couple of years have been low compared to the (newer) Skoda.

There are also other newer R5's out now like the C3 R5 and Polo R5 and these will also hit Fiesta sales. The Mk8 Fiesta R5 isnt due til July 2019.

M.Wilson spent a lot of his own money funding Ogier and I can see why he doesnt want to now run at loss in WRC with no glory to compensate. The 2017-spec cars cost a lot to run and against three full Manu teams it will need constant development.

[T16]

[QUOTE=tbtstt;1195602]The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along?

no - the difference between then and now is that then, they were selling loads of WRC cars, but now they have sold just two or three (I think)...

And regarding the glossy front... I can understand what you're thinking, but people aren't going to buy an R5 based on what the WRC car has achieved.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

2017 WRC's are £750k... not surprising only two have been sold. And Østberg couldnt afford to run his with the cost of parts and upgrades.

[denkimi]

[QUOTE=tbtstt;1195602]The same way he was before the new regulations and Ogier came along?

no - the difference between then and now is that then, they were selling loads of WRC cars, but now they have sold just two or three (I think)...

And regarding the glossy front... I can understand what you're thinking, but people aren't going to buy an R5 based on what the WRC car has achieved.
They never sold many new wrc cars. They did sell most of their works cars after some rally's.
Which is actually quite a genious businesses model.

[T16]

[QUOTE=T16;1195607]
They never sold many new wrc cars. They did sell most of their works cars after some rally's.
Which is actually quite a genious businesses model.

Where did you get the 'new' bit from? Either way, old or new, they sold loads of them, as they did with the focus' and that meant parts and support contracts too. I'm not going to profess to have every bit of information, but surely if you are not selling the product you make and you are not selling any parts too, then it's a pretty bad business model.

[pantealex]

Sorry but if you look at the main R5 championships and especially in Europe, they are now dominated by the Skoda Fabia R5. The Fiesta may be numerous in total but the sales in the last couple of years have been low compared to the (newer) Skoda.

There are also other newer R5's out now like the C3 R5 and Polo R5 and these will also hit Fiesta sales. The Mk8 Fiesta R5 isnt due til July 2019.

Have to remember that M-Sport had 200-250 "old" bodyshells in store when Mk8 came. How many R2/R5 they have built since? They simply have nothing to sell until Mk8 models are ready.

[Andre Oliveira]

I believe Mk8 R2T will be homologated to JWRC 2019, so... soon.

[br21]

Have to remember that M-Sport had 200-250 "old" bodyshells in store when Mk8 came. How many R2/R5 they have built since? They simply have nothing to sell until Mk8 models are ready.

You still can build R5 (or R2) based on used road car, so still possibilities to build new ones.

[Tarmop]

Too much fuzz. A road car a) costs more (in terms of a r5 rallycar not so much ofc) b) has all the unnecessary eq. from sound proofing to paint and is...used c) is old in every way, costs a lot and there are newer cars, which are faster.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The Mk8 Fiesta R5 is still a way off because it's built by using the ST car which only came out in July 2018. The WRC car used basic shells provided by Ford as far back as Sept 2016.

This was great for the WRC programme and new 2017-spec car but its left a big gap to the new R5 which is their bread and butter.

It's a double-whammy now - the WRC car hasnt sold and their are no new R5's til later next year.

[the sniper]

Is there actually any relevant difference between the bog standard Mk8 Fiesta and the ST version that'd affect the development and homologation of an R5 Mk8 Fiesta? I doubt it.

I think the delay is more down to the distraction of the ongoing and somewhat problematic development of the WRC car, directing resources (man and money) towards this and possibly wishing to wait until the R5 Polo is out so they can see what the benchmark will be for this second generation of R5s.

[br21]

Guys, there is no problem to build brand new R5 car in current spec and cost is same like 5 years ago. And they are still building and selling such cars.

[racerx1979]

Ford deciding to no longer sell the fiesta and focus in tht US says a lot about the company. It might be ideal for Malcom to switch makes. Afterall, he's not tied to any manufacturer and that's what makes MSport such a great company. They can go where the money is... Just have to find it and convince someone, but I can only imagine how difficult that would be. I think it will take some time before they make a big switch.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Is there actually any relevant difference between the bog standard Mk8 Fiesta and the ST version that'd affect the development and homologation of an R5 Mk8 Fiesta? I doubt it.

I think the delay is more down to the distraction of the ongoing and somewhat problematic development of the WRC car, directing resources (man and money) towards this and possibly wishing to wait until the R5 Polo is out so they can see what the benchmark will be for this second generation of R5s.

I was in the group at the tour of their service area for MS-RT Supporters at Rally GB. As well as seeing everything happening there close-up, we were also given a 45 minute talk by one of the bosses.

Among the masses of information we were told, in the part about the making of an R5 car and he definitely said they start with a Fiesta ST from the factory which is then stripped and converted into the rally car.

I assume this is because its a Ford (and not manufactured by M-Sport) and so has to be an actual road car to start with. Plus the engine also has to start as a factory 1.6 Ecoboost which is then 'optimised' by the engineers.

The new ST has a 1.5T 3-cylinder engine so maybe they had to wait for this to develop for the new R5 ?

[mknight]

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).
Anyway, it's prbly better to start before Ford pulls out completely, rater than be surprised by it like prodrive did.

[deephouse]

Or take on board Volkswagen... Hehe I'm joking.

[dupanton]

If M-Sport would start with another make, they would have done it already for the new R2 and R5 car they are going to homologate next year.

[tomhlord]

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).

There's no way they would join unless hybridisation is adapted in the ruleset (which it sounds like it may be in the future, so possible but only from that date onwards)

[deephouse]

First they need to start making road cars again not only SUV-s. Except if the future lies there.

[pantealex]

Mitsubishi (given the rumors).
Anyway, it's prbly better to start before Ford pulls out completely, rater than be surprised by it like prodrive did.

Mitsubishi is part of Nissan/Renault alliance, why would they use their hybrid brand ? Both Nissan and Renault make "sport" cars.

[deephouse]

Buth both don't have WRC experience from WRC era. And are not interested at all to even try. Mitsubishi does. And they've won couple of times.

[pantealex]

Buth both don't have WRC experience from WRC era. And are not interested at all to even try. Mitsubishi does. And they've won couple of times.

Mitsubishi WRC experience was not built in Japan...

European car which was built with mostly european people.

Try to understand that Nissan/Renault owns Mitsubishi brand, Mitsu people can´t do anything without owners aplication.

[br21]

I was in the group at the tour of their service area for MS-RT Supporters at Rally GB. As well as seeing everything happening there close-up, we were also given a 45 minute talk by one of the bosses.

Among the masses of information we were told, in the part about the making of an R5 car and he definitely said they start with a Fiesta ST from the factory which is then stripped and converted into the rally car.

I assume this is because its a Ford (and not manufactured by M-Sport) and so has to be an actual road car to start with. Plus the engine also has to start as a factory 1.6 Ecoboost which is then 'optimised' by the engineers.

The new ST has a 1.5T 3-cylinder engine so maybe they had to wait for this to develop for the new R5 ?

I'm currently supervising build of R5 Fiesta, chassis of which was made from used road car with some 60k km on the clock. All paperwork from M-Sport and FIA is done and is fully correct, so I know what I'm writing. It can be ST or Ecoboost model. It needs to be based on normal road car as needs to have proper VIN number. And engine is not based on ST road car, actually engine for current Fiesta is based on some 1,8 engine from Mondeo I think. It just needs to be engine from the group. Engine for new Fiesta will be based on 2,0l from US market.

[Tarmop]

Same with the Fabia, 1.6l engine from a downgraded 1.8l Chinese market engine.
"The mass-produced engine, from which the racing engine of the ŠKODA FABIA R5 is derived, was originally introduced in the Volkswagen Lamando and ŠKODA Superb cars for the Chinese market."

And that is also, what Toyota is waiting for with their project...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I'm currently supervising build of R5 Fiesta, chassis of which was made from used road car with some 60k km on the clock. All paperwork from M-Sport and FIA is done and is fully correct, so I know what I'm writing. It can be ST or Ecoboost model. It needs to be based on normal road car as needs to have proper VIN number. And engine is not based on ST road car, actually engine for current Fiesta is based on some 1,8 engine from Mondeo I think. It just needs to be engine from the group. Engine for new Fiesta will be based on 2,0l from US market.

I was only repeating what the M-Sport guy said. THEY use a new ST road-car from the factory and strip it to make an R5.
I would assume it will be the same with the Mk8 Fiesta R5.

By the way, if its not based on an engine for the Fiesta road-car can they really say its powered by Ecoboost ? I dont think there was a Mondeo 1.8 Ecoboost.

[T16]

I was only repeating what the M-Sport guy said. THEY use a new ST road-car from the factory and strip it to make an R5.
I would assume it will be the same with the Mk8 Fiesta R5.

By the way, if its not based on an engine for the Fiesta road-car can they really say its powered by Ecoboost ? I dont think there was a Mondeo 1.8 Ecoboost.

They won’t use much if the original engine Eddie. Eco boost is just a brand name.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They won’t use much if the original engine Eddie. Eco boost is just a brand name.

'Ford Ecoboost' is ok but using the words 'Powered by..' is misleading then.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Good article by Henry Catchpole: 'Behind Closed Doors at M-Sport':

https://drivetribe.com/p/behind-closed-doors-m-sport-frdKQHsdTAC2bvEZGG26EA?iid=Gj0ZrS6FS6yrgGh94_b1yQ

[T16]

'Ford Ecoboost' is ok but using the words 'Powered by..' is misleading then.

Misleading? what did you actually think eco boost was?

[pantealex]

Misleading? what did you actually think eco boost was?

Eddie believes MS-RT means MSport Rally (or Racing) Team, rest of the world knows it´s MSport Road Technology.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I know what Ecoboost is, but do enlighten me how it relates to the Fiesta R5 engine, if its based on a 1.8 Mondeo engine (Re the oracle, br21) ? There has never been a 1.8 Ecoboost.

And I know that MS-RT stands for Road Technology, but the guys at M-Sport also use it as an abbreviation for Rally Team. I had about a 10-email discussion with them about this when I joined the 'MS-RT' Supporters Club .


https://i.imgur.com/YwcbI5i.jpg

[the sniper]

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!

Weren't/aren't they putting Ecoboost branding on NASCAR cars, at least at some point? I don't think they're too fussy...

[mknight]

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!


Basically yes. Starting some 8? years ago all european petrol cars went from 1.6-2.5 L naturally aspirated engines to 1.0-1.8L turbocharged. Mainly to reduce "paper" consumption/emission values. This was generally reffered to as "downsizing".

Ford was doing exactly the same as everyone else but called all the new engines with turbo as "ecoboost". (some epic marketing skills involved)

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I always thought Ecoboost was just marketing speak for 'It's got a Turbo'!

Weren't/aren't they putting Ecoboost branding on NASCAR cars, at least at some point? I don't think they're too fussy...

As I said before, a livery advertising Ford Ecoboost is fine. But 'Powered by' indicates the rally car's engine is a 1.6T Ecoboost from a Fiesta. Not some M-Sport in-house creation based on something else from Ford (that was never an Ecoboost at all).

For the WRC car M-Sport state:
Designed to new technical regulations introduced ahead of the 2017 FIA World Rally Championship, the Ford Fiesta WRC is M-Sport's top-specification rally car – producing 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine.

Ford's take on the Eco part:
Direct injection helps EcoBoost engines achieve these remarkable mpg figures. A precise, highly pressurised amount of fuel is injected directly into the combustion chamber. This innovative and effective way of using fuel means EcoBoost engines use only the bare minimum amount of fuel needed.

The guy from M-Sport at Rally GB told us the WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

[T16]

Eddie, you know that rallying is all about at the top level? It's about companies selling cars. They are going to milk every avenue and opportunity to sell their end products and market the hell out of the investment that they have made in their respective WRC programmes.
Ford Eco-Boost is, as others have said above, the terminology they give to the small petrol engines and how they are inducted.
On one hand you're professing to know a lot about M-Sport and the WRC in general, yet on the other, you are surprised that M-Sport are using Eco-Boost terminology for a non-standard competition engine, that shares little with a road-going variant.
Eco-Boost is a brand and M-Sport and Ford are using their competition programmes to promote it. Yes, it's not the same engine as Mrs Fast has in her Fiesta, but you get why they do what they do, right?

[stefanvv]

WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

You answered the question Yourself. Is there someone who believes WRC cars are ecological?:D

[Lousada]

The guy from M-Sport at Rally GB told us the WRC car uses 1.7L of petrol per mile. Not very eco, but plenty of boost !

Maybe ECO is short for Economic. Ford certainly does their rallying on the cheap. :o

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Eddie, you know that rallying is all about at the top level? It's about companies selling cars. They are going to milk every avenue and opportunity to sell their end products and market the hell out of the investment that they have made in their respective WRC programmes.
Ford Eco-Boost is, as others have said above, the terminology they give to the small petrol engines and how they are inducted.
On one hand you're professing to know a lot about M-Sport and the WRC in general, yet on the other, you are surprised that M-Sport are using Eco-Boost terminology for a non-standard competition engine, that shares little with a road-going variant.
Eco-Boost is a brand and M-Sport and Ford are using their competition programmes to promote it. Yes, it's not the same engine as Mrs Fast has in her Fiesta, but you get why they do what they do, right?

You dont have to be so condescending. I know of course its advertising, but I expect a bit of honesty. Using the term 'Powered by Ford Ecoboost' does at least imply there is some connection with that engine and the rally car. Even on their website they say 'based on the 1.6 Ecoboost Fiesta ST'. The whole implication is that engine is at least the basis.

They should stick to the actual engine spec:
"M-Sport developed 1.6 Turbo, direct injection powerplant, FIA regulated 32mm restrictor." with no mention of the ST or Ecoboost.

Apart from what br21 said about a Ford Mondeo 1.8, can anyone else give some evidence of what engine the Fiesta R5 actually starts out as ?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

A couple of websites state the WRC car engine as follows:

'The engine has been revised to produce 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine and 36 mm inlet restrictor.'

'Engine: Ford EcoBoost 1600cc direct injection engine developed by Ford, M-Sport and Pipo Moteurs. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Bore 83.0mm. Stroke 73.9mm. Cosworth electronic engine management system. Garrett turbocharger (with FIA required 33 mm inlet restrictor). Air intercooler. Catalytic converter.'

[Tarmop]

Yeah, whatever. They use what they can/ need and market it like they need. Fiesta RS WRC aka mk7 was all the time "powered by ecoboost", right?....and for 2015 they built a rally-spec block not found in any road car.
" For the first time, the entire engine block was designed in-house by M-Sport’s team of designers and engineers. With technical support from Ford, it has been machined from a solid block of aluminium and exemplifies M-Sport’s engineering expertise which continues to grow from strength to strength."

[Mirek]

A couple of websites state the WRC car engine as follows:

'The engine has been revised to produce 380 bhp and 450 Nm of torque from its bespoke Ecoboost-powered 1600cc direct injection engine and 36 mm inlet restrictor.'

'Engine: Ford EcoBoost 1600cc direct injection engine developed by Ford, M-Sport and Pipo Moteurs. Four cylinders, 16 valves. Bore 83.0mm. Stroke 73.9mm. Cosworth electronic engine management system. Garrett turbocharger (with FIA required 33 mm inlet restrictor). Air intercooler. Catalytic converter.'

Sorry that I didn't read all the discussion (I'm ill and don't have the mood for that) but if You were trying to prove that Fiesta WRC engine is stock-based You just proved otherwise because no stock Ford EcoBoost engine has 83 mm bore. Anyway it's well established fact that the only WRC engine using a stock block since 2011 was the one of Mini.

The point is plain and simple. Stock engines have different use than racing ones and some of their features are not suitable for racing. For example You need small compact engine with low fuel consumption and emissions in stock production but for racing You need big valves, strong block and cooling which is large enough. You can see a clear pattern that nearly all WRC engines have same or very similar bore/stroke ratio because that was found to be ideal for their use. However no stock engine features such dimensions. That's why they design their own engine for WRC cars (where they can do that) or they are at least modifying existing larger engines but reducing stroke (usual way with R5 cars).

The only stock engine used in WRC cars was PSA/BMW EP6CDT in Mini and it was very problematic due to its small bore and insufficient cooling. Citroën didn't do the same mistake with DS3 and C3 WRC and designed a new engine. However for R5 cars they couldn't do the same because it's not allowed hence the issues with their R5 cars having not enough torque and ever repeating engine issues. The others used larger stock engines for R5 cars and reduced their stroke (M-Sport, Škoda, Hyundai) but PSA couldn't do that because they didn't have any larger stock turbo engine than 1.6.

And one advice at the end. Believe what Br21 says because he knows what he's talking about!

[T16]

You dont have to be so condescending. I know of course its advertising, but I expect a bit of honesty. Using the term 'Powered by Ford Ecoboost' does at least imply there is some connection with that engine and the rally car. Even on their website they say 'based on the 1.6 Ecoboost Fiesta ST'. The whole implication is that engine is at least the basis.

They should stick to the actual engine spec:
"M-Sport developed 1.6 Turbo, direct injection powerplant, FIA regulated 32mm restrictor." with no mention of the ST or Ecoboost.

Apart from what br21 said about a Ford Mondeo 1.8, can anyone else give some evidence of what engine the Fiesta R5 actually starts out as ?

OK, look at it this way: The WRC fiesta and the R5 fiesta ARE both powered by Eco-Boost engines because M-Sport chooses to claim they are. Eco-Boost isn't a specific component, it's a name they give to something and in this case, M-Sport (with Ford's permission) choose to brand their small petrol-petrol rally engines as such.

[N.O.T]

Always had a secret admiration towards people that had the mental strength to argue with the british on subjects that require a bit more than basic level of intelligence...

The last few posts are the perfect example why manufacturers bother with top level motorsport...

simply because the basic uneducated human thinks that a WRC car is just his 30k vehicle he keeps in his garage in disguise and with some fancy paintwork and plastics...

[T16]

Always had a secret admiration towards people that had the mental strength to argue with the british on subjects that require a bit more than basic level of intelligence...

The last few posts are the perfect example why manufacturers bother with top level motorsport...

simply because the basic uneducated human thinks that a WRC car is just his 30k vehicle he keeps in his garage in disguise and with some fancy paintwork and plastics...

Thanks. What do I win?

[N.O.T]

Thanks. What do I win?

my secret admiration... its very secret though.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

The problem here is that none of you have understood where this argument started ie. why the new Mk8 Fiesta R5 is not out yet and if its anything to do with the new Fiesta ST only just being produced.

I asked if the fact the car was 'based on the ST' which every part of Ford and M-Sport claim, had anything to do with it. That was all.

And to NOT and T16 - get a life. You are both so sad and bitter that I proved you wrong in the past and are desperate to try to make a point. Pathetic.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Thanks. What do I win?

A place in NOTs twisted world. Well done.

[Tarmop]

Block has a "ST" logo on his WRC this weekend...again, they can use stickers what they like.

Or you seriously think that a company desperately needing money is giving away millions to their rivals because of a VIN code, that has nothing to do with the rally car and probably is no argument in selling it either?

[T16]

And to NOT and T16 - get a life. You are both so sad and bitter that I proved you wrong in the past and are desperate to try to make a point. Pathetic.[/QUOTE]

Cheers sweetie.... when did you prove me wrong again?

[Mirek]

The problem here is that none of you have understood where this argument started ie. why the new Mk8 Fiesta R5 is not out yet and if its anything to do with the new Fiesta ST only just being produced.

You spoke about engines and I am pretty sure the new Fiesta ST engine won't be a base for R5 engine.


I asked if the fact the car was 'based on the ST' which every part of Ford and M-Sport claim, had anything to do with it.

Most likely it has to do a lot with the amount of work spent on WRC car development.

[dodge33cymru]

I hope this doesn't happen, but I can see a case for making next year MSport's last in the top class and focusing on the WRC2 Pro one after. Put a couple of top drivers in it and use it to advertise the R5 car for sale.

[Tarmop]

Block in social media is talking about a lent WRC car for his Gymkhana project, not buying.

[T16]

I hope this doesn't happen, but I can see a case for making next year MSport's last in the top class and focusing on the WRC2 Pro one after. Put a couple of top drivers in it and use it to advertise the R5 car for sale.

I hope you are correct and we will get at least another year from them in WRC.... at the moment, I can't see a case for them being in the WRC class at all. There's just not enough customer demand for their WRC cars unfortunately.

[Tarmop]

You mean wealthy customers, otherwise we can name several current soon to be unemployed drivers+ Kremers, Blocks etc.

[Andre Oliveira]

Ford Performance very active in social media about RallyRACC. Ken Block effect.

[er88]

Ford Performance very active in social media about RallyRACC. Ken Block effect.Twats

[T16]

Twats

ha ha.

[racerx1979]

Ford Performance very active in social media about RallyRACC. Ken Block effect.

I lived in the states for many years. Nobody knows or cares about rally. They love Ken Block because he does donuts on youtube. Ken is also huge in Australia.... they even have a nickname for him (Blockie). Basically what I'm trying to say is we have a lot of hill billies in America and Australia who love Ken Block...

That being said, it does not hurt to introduce hill billies to WRC, but they will only watch if Blockie is racing. And... trust you me they're still hoping he could pull an upset and win the rally. I hope Ken does more rallies not because I like him, but because I love the greatest sport in the world which is
WR to muthafuggin C (gold teeth in mouth).

[N.O.T]

I lived in the states for many years. Nobody knows or cares about rally. They love Ken Block because he does donuts on youtube. Ken is also huge in Australia.... they even have a nickname for him (Blockie). Basically what I'm trying to say is we have a lot of hill billies in America and Australia who love Ken Block...

That being said, it does not hurt to introduce hill billies to WRC, but they will only watch if Blockie is racing. And... trust you me they're still hoping he could pull an upset and win the rally. I hope Ken does more rallies not because I like him, but because I love the greatest sport in the world which is
WR to muthafuggin C (gold teeth in mouth).

i do not want low life trash to infest the sport... no matter how big it will become.

[Zeakiwi]

FIA would probably turn down a wrc homologation for a 1972 Dodge Charger, Billy Bob.

ford crown victoria turned into general lee/ dodge charger
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=116&v=Nk-ypusAmPk

Block obviously crashed in spain due to the lack of power in wrc fiesta compared to the hoonitruck.
hoonitruck
https://youtu.be/FgqyzQY9gks
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ken-block-hoonitruck/

[Andre Oliveira]

Loeb at M-Sport?

Crazy, impossible,... like Ogier in M-Sport sounded...

[wrc2017]

Loeb at M-Sport?

Crazy, impossible,... like Ogier in M-Sport sounded...
not impossible. loeb doesn't need psa. but a full a season... cant see it.

[WRC1]

not impossible. loeb doesn't need psa. but a full a season... cant see it.

Loeb does not need a full season....Loeb always said he wants no more fulltime WRC Comeback.....so 3rd car at Citroen would fit perfectly!!

[racerx1979]

Loeb does not need a full season....Loeb always said he wants no more fulltime WRC Comeback.....so 3rd car at Citroen would fit perfectly!!

I think Loeb will do 7-8 event next year. That is what I've been saying for the last 4 minutes.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@SebOgier
Happy and proud that we managed to turn things round in the championship & to eventually clinch the WRC title ! We're leaving M-Sport but these 2 years together will always hold a special place in our career - what a team !

🇬🇧 https://t.co/lbahjG5tBH
🇫🇷 https://t.co/lgQzMb6K0x https://t.co/IJfERyCAaY

[Barreis]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140186

[stefanvv]

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/140186

I wonder this myself ever since he signed with Citroen. And will continue to wonder the next 2 years.

[Tarmop]

Why, the C3 has proven its pace in capable hands, they have the money and it`s another goal/adventure in his career. Makes perfect sense.

[stefanvv]

I know it may sound a bit childish, but he doesn't like this team, and I doubt Matton's replacement Budar can do miracles to heal the old scars.

[MentalParadox]

Should Ogier succeed in winning even ONE title with Citroën, he will finish his career with 7 titles. That's 2 titles short of Loeb, but contrary to Loeb he did it with THREE different teams. That, to me, means Ogier is one of the greats.

[stefanvv]

Even if he wins 12 titles with 4 manufacturers (well actually M-Sport aren't one), he will never be N1 according to the majority of the people. He was obviously struggling with the Fiesta this year, and after 2 failed attempts with major upgrades he probably decided had enough. For me it's empty effort just to win another title with a different manufacturer. That won't make him more popular even in France where they have already Loeb for eternity.

[Tarmop]

Personal motivation is also pretty important, when you have 6 consecutive titles already...

[stefanvv]

Yes of course. I'm talking just as observer, I'm not in his shoes and he does know what is best for him, at least I hope he does...

[Rally Power]

Ogier is closing his life rally cycle (several mentions about this being the last contract); maybe he felt the cycle would not be fully closed without returning to his home team. Hope Citroen won’t let him down. Fingers crossed!

[T16]

I'm hoping like hell that Rallycross meeting the grim reaper and Citroen only running two cars will mean Loeb ends up at M-sport.

His market value will have dropped, given that there are seemingly no more doors open and Mr Wilson has always been a big fan.

With no Rallycross on the table for 2019, it might just happen.

I'm not in the know regarding finance and funds etc, but surely, he has enough marketable clout to bring a sponsor to M-sport.

Stars are beginning to line up hopefully.

[spiderem]

I'm hoping like hell that Rallycross meeting the grim reaper and Citroen only running two cars will mean Loeb ends up at M-sport.

His market value will have dropped, given that there are seemingly no more doors open and Mr Wilson has always been a big fan.

With no Rallycross on the table for 2019, it might just happen.

I'm not in the know regarding finance and funds etc, but surely, he has enough marketable clout to bring a sponsor to M-sport.

Stars are beginning to line up hopefully.

As much as i'd love to see loeb at M-Sport too, i really don't see what is there for him to do so... When he retired from Citroen, it was clear that he didn't want to travel for long period anymore, rallies requiring to be away for 1 week / 10 days at least. With rally cross he could still do a world champioship with shorter travel period. I don't see that has changed.

So unless someone comes with a lot of cash to convince the maestro to drive and pays that car, i think he has enough to do to keep himself busy doing racing in europe with his own team...

I don't know how much resources has Bardall, but it sounds like someone had a dream and wanted his logo on a car (dakar) driven by Loeb. So maybe they have further resouces to have that logo for a WRC season on a car...

[Tarmop]

It doesn`t have to be a full season...it wasn`t supposed to be and Wilson said, it doesn`t have to be (old news again, they`ve made their offer).

[T16]

It doesn`t have to be a full season...it wasn`t supposed to be and Wilson said, it doesn`t have to be (old news again, they`ve made their offer).

Sorry, not sure I understand fully. Are you saying they have made Loeb an offer already?

[T16]

As much as i'd love to see loeb at M-Sport too, i really don't see what is there for him to do so... When he retired from Citroen, it was clear that he didn't want to travel for long period anymore, rallies requiring to be away for 1 week / 10 days at least. With rally cross he could still do a world champioship with shorter travel period. I don't see that has changed.

So unless someone comes with a lot of cash to convince the maestro to drive and pays that car, i think he has enough to do to keep himself busy doing racing in europe with his own team...

I don't know how much resources has Bardall, but it sounds like someone had a dream and wanted his logo on a car (dakar) driven by Loeb. So maybe they have further resouces to have that logo for a WRC season on a car...

I know rallies take a longer period of time, per event, but if he did a full RX season last year and three WRC events, I think he may be tempted. I also think winning in Spain gave him a buzz like he hasn't had for a long time and he may just have had enough of a break to let the elements he didn't like dissipate.

Complete speculation or whatever, but I just have a little feeling it might happen. And let's face it, who wouldn't want to see him in a Ford, working for Malcolm and having a good crack at it.

[Tarmop]

Sorry, not sure I understand fully. Are you saying they have made Loeb an offer already?

Umh, where have you been? It has been discussed here also. Also quite logical...
https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/20598

[T16]

Umh, where have you been? It has been discussed here also. Also quite logical...
https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/20598

Lots of places.

I hadn’t seen that before. Fingers crossed then.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

https://www.autosport.com/awards/news/140468/msport-ford-beats-wrc-rivals-to-rally-car-award

[mknight]

I'd say it's well deserved.

It did look like the most allround car. They only really struggled in Finland and a bit in Argentina (but there start position and weather on saturday had an effect). Otherwise they never really seem to have big setup issues.
For Hyundai it's the norm to struggle with setup on friday and has also been last year and they now added tarmac rallies to Finland on the list of rallies where they struggle.
Toyota was faster (for sure in second half) but it still seems fragile and/or forced to run on dangerous setup (GB especially). Seemingly when the setup is safer for rough rallies they struggle (Turkey, Sardinia).

[Fast Eddie WRC]

I agree, the Fiesta was tough and reliable as well as fast... and there were few complaints from the driver's.

People will talk about the Yaris but it was only faster for half the season and was always prone to damage.

[Tarmop]

It started grabbing SS wins from the very first round and look how many they (or one) had them in the end. So good, but i wouldn`t say it is the fastest of all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ford's Gerard Quinn interviewed by Colin Clark :

https://kitchentablesd.podbean.com

[T16]

Timo Suninen Twitter:

We started our first trip together today with my new co-driver @SalminenMarko. First couple of days testing before heading to Rally Monza. Very important season ahead of us driving a @MSportLtd prepared Fiesta WRC.

Looks like official confirmation that
M-Sport are in the hunt next year.

Good news.

[Andre Oliveira]

28/09/18

@Buagsports
Teemu Suninen confirmed for M-Sport 2019.

:)

[WRC1]

28/09/18

@Buagsports
Teemu Suninen confirmed for M-Sport 2019.

:)

confiramation for M-Sport means not automaticly a WRC Programm....could be also WRC or WRC2 pro

[T16]

confiramation for M-Sport means not automaticly a WRC Programm....could be also WRC or WRC2 pro

his twitter claims WRC though... How could that mean WRC2?

[WRC1]

his twitter claims WRC though... How could that mean WRC2?

now it is confirmed, yes!

But my Post was a Reply to Andre Oliveira, who suggested that Suninen was already confirmed in WRC at late September...

[AnttiL]

I think you are still wrong, Timo Jouhki confirmed that Latvala and Suninen have WRC seats for every rally of 2019 before we even knew which teams they were going to be in.

[Allez Andruet]

With Suninen's resume together with the backing of Timo Jouhki, did someone seriously thought Malcolm meant anything else than WRC, when he said they (M-Sport) have Teemu under contract for next year?

[Allez Andruet]

I think you are still wrong, Timo Jouhki confirmed that Latvala and Suninen have WRC seats for every rally of 2019 before we even knew which teams they were going to be in.

Correct. That was the first form of confirmation, sort of.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

They may just be running a car for Suninen rather than it being part of a team entry.

MW interview from @LoriCarnITV who was at M-Sport yesterday:
“Yes, even off camera he wasn't giving much away, but it sounded like next year was going to be spent balancing the books and also looking at other parts of the company.”

[bassist]

Just seen a couple of video's about 'M Sport' and their future. Any insiders out there who are in tune with the current situation? Body language suggests that they won't be playing in 2019, certainly at the level they have been!!

[AnttiL]

They may just be running a car for Suninen rather than it being part of a team entry.
Why in the world would they do that?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Why in the world would they do that?

Because they had already agreed a contract ?

[er88]

Because they had already agreed a contract ?They aren't going to be running one car.

2 on certain events is surely possible, but they aren't just turning up with one car. Contracts mean fuck all, if Malcolm wants to pull the plug on Msport in the WRC a little contract with Suninen isn't going to stop him doing that totally...

Camilli, Greensmith and Block will probably share a car throughout the season (it's been rumoured and reported), Suninen has a full year and then it's one of Breen/Evans/Tiedemand/ Loeb part time in the mix for the other car imo.

[AnttiL]

Because they had already agreed a contract ?

Ah, you suggest there won’t be an M-Sport manufacturer entry next year?

[dupanton]

Ah, you suggest there won’t be an M-Sport manufacturer entry next year?

That rumour has been there for quite some time. They could just compete in the European rallies that way.

[Tarmop]

I think they aren`t giving up on paying drivers, because the product they offer is good and there are people out there willing to pay for it. Never going to believe that Jouhki will pay for one car with full package every continent they go...that would be too much. Development will probably stop for the moment though...

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Ah, you suggest there won’t be an M-Sport manufacturer entry next year?

Possibly from the sound of things. Dropping out of the long-haul rallies would save a lot of money.

I think its all going to depend on getting a new sponsor and they are very hard to find.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

@MSportLtd
We wanted to share a few photos from our family album, all from yesterday's celebrations 🙂

➡️ You can view more photos on our Facebook page: https://t.co/gQ73uHHOur https://t.co/nWplz1kaCd

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtq_juAWwAEozSZ?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtq_jt-X4AAp4Il?format=jpg&name=large
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtq_jt9X4AASw7X?format=jpg&name=large

[Allez Andruet]

One for Suninen and... :confused:

[Andre Oliveira]

Rossi, Brivio and Salucci

[Allez Andruet]

Wasn't Suninen driving there as well?

[AnttiL]

Wasn't Suninen driving there as well?

You said it already yourself

[Allez Andruet]

You said it already yourself

Geez, maybe I should call it a day.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtq_juCW4AAm7-p?format=jpg&name=large

[Andre Oliveira]

https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47580506_10218175998975091_6007820366976647168_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=436ec5b5062a5628e72cc70c1f042c27&oe=5CAEFC63

[spiderem]

https://scontent.fopo3-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/47580506_10218175998975091_6007820366976647168_n.j pg?_nc_cat=109&_nc_ht=scontent.fopo3-1.fna&oh=436ec5b5062a5628e72cc70c1f042c27&oe=5CAEFC63

with the "new" aero.

[Andre Oliveira]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dtryi7yXQAEHBuG?format=jpg&name=medium
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DtrsijPWsAMqDC0?format=jpg&name=medium

[tomhlord]

Some stunning liveries there.

[Sulland]

MSport is in a tricky situation post Ogier.

Malcolm need to do something, to get one good lead driver.

Mikkelsen is quick, but the Hyundai does not suite him.
Maybe he would be willing to swap to Ford. Fiesta is now tweeked by Ogier, and they both got the Polo to go quick.

If the I20 is not dramatically changed for 2019, he will still struggle, and maybe destroy his future possibilities.

Maybe a Fiesta season could help both Malcolm and him?

[Tarmop]

Ogier probably gets every car going quick enough to be the champ...and Malcolm needs money most of all.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Lots of Welsh fans have been telling me Evans deserves to be #1 at M-Sport now and is the best for the role.

Does anyone agree and rate Evans as a WRC driver deserving a seat ?

[AnttiL]

You don’t deserve a seat at M-Sport, you buy it.

[Norm75]

Well his results this year we're better than Teemu's and of the available or unconfirmed drivers better than Breens, on par with Ostberg but Paddon would be better bet.
Having said that, playing second fiddle to Ogier with team orders, updates etc so maybe results wise have been a little unkind to Elfyn this year.
But, like Antill said, money talks.

[T16]

Lots of Welsh fans have been telling me Evans deserves to be #1 at M-Sport now and is the best for the role.

Does anyone agree and rate Evans as a WRC driver deserving a seat ?

He deserves a crack at it without the pressure of playing wingman.
Also because of how they threw him under the bus at rally GB. That alone is worth a couple of events.

[Tarmop]

He deserves a crack at it without the pressure of playing wingman.
Also because of how they threw him under the bus at rally GB. That alone is worth a couple of events.

You mean, when his car had tech. issues, nothing to do with orders what so ever?

[dodge33cymru]

I think, all things being equal (i.e. no-one bringing a budget), giving Elfyn a chance would be the best option going. Arguably Paddon or Mads could be a quicker option, but neither is likely to be an event winner IMO, so better the devil you know.

However, to be honest, I think there's a risk of them being left behind next year and, to be honest, if I were Malcolm I'd be tempted to do away with paying for the WRC programme and focus on the new R5, put a couple of top drivers (Evans, Suninen, Breen, Ostberg) in WRC2 Pro for the second half of the season and show that car in the best possible light; there's money to be made there that I doubt is in the WRC programme at this stage.

[T16]

You mean, when his car had tech. issues, nothing to do with orders what so ever?

Yes... when they switched his engine off so he wouldn’t trouble Ogier. Implementing team orders on his home round would have created too much of a backlash.

[AnttiL]

Yes... when they switched his engine off so he wouldn’t trouble Ogier. Implementing team orders on his home round would have created too much of a backlash.

It would be funny if you were joking

[T16]

You mean, when his car had tech. issues, nothing to do with orders what so ever?


It would be funny if you were joking

I don’t know if that means you agree or not?

[stefanvv]

Evans just have the chance to prove himself next year, that's all.

[Tarmop]

I don’t know if that means you agree or not?

And they also probe you when you sleep.

[T16]

And they also probe you when you sleep.

.?

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Evans has had massives chances with 4 full WRC seasons and not shown a lot of progress. His 2018 was worse than 2017 and the places he gave to Ogier were only gained by better road positions, not speed.

I'd prefer M-Sport to try to find a real top driver for the future. Evans hasnt shown enough that he will ever be that star driver.

[the sniper]

Malcolm should be asking his customers Ken Block and Valentino Rossi to hook him up with the men holding the purse strings at Monster Energy... I'd love to know whether there has been any discussion between the two organisations.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Malcolm should be asking his customers Ken Block and Valentino Rossi to hook him up with the men holding the purse strings at Monster Energy... I'd love to know whether there has been any discussion between the two organisations.

Maybe not as Red Bull seems to have WRC stitched-up, sponsoring many teams over recent years (Citroen, then VW, then M-Sport, now Citroen again). Plus many driver's are RB 'atheletes'. They also cover the WRC and promote it. So I'm not sure Monster would be interested.

However RB and Monster co-exist in F1 and WRX so who knows ...

[T16]

Maybe not as Red Bull seems to have WRC stitched-up, sponsoring many teams over recent years (Citroen, then VW, then M-Sport, now Citroen again). Plus many driver's are RB 'atheletes'. They also cover the WRC and promote it. So I'm not sure Monster would be interested.

However RB and Monster co-exist in F1 and WRX so who knows ...


Total, Shell and Castrol all sponsored works teams at the same time, so I can't see why not and Monster and Redbull both had a presence at the same time in the past.

I wonder if M-sport could get a major sponsor if Loeb were to commit to a full season.

[Essaj]

Malcolm should be asking his customers Ken Block and Valentino Rossi to hook him up with the men holding the purse strings at Monster Energy... I'd love to know whether there has been any discussion between the two organisations.

This would be great but how is Monster suppose to sponsor M-sport when both Teemu and Elfyn are sposored by Red Bull? or maybe their contracts ended when RB left to Citroen?

[Norm75]

This would be great but how is Monster suppose to sponsor M-sport when both Teemu and Elfyn are sposored by Red Bull? or maybe their contracts ended when RB left to Citroen?

I'm sure it's not that big a hurdle to overcome, take MotoGP as an example, Jorge Lorenzo is monster sponsored athlete and has moved from monster sponsored yamaha to Ducati to redbull sponsored honda.

[Tarmop]

This would be great but how is Monster suppose to sponsor M-sport when both Teemu and Elfyn are sposored by Red Bull? or maybe their contracts ended when RB left to Citroen?

Probably like Monster-sponsored cars enter a series sponsored by RB and vice versa.

[the sniper]

This would be great but how is Monster suppose to sponsor M-sport when both Teemu and Elfyn are sposored by Red Bull? or maybe their contracts ended when RB left to Citroen?

I'm talking about having Monster as a principle sponsor of the team instead. I'm working on the basis that the current level of Red Bull funding has presumable left with Ogier and Citreon will return to being the de facto Red Bull team. I imagine Elfyn's personal RB sponsorship is actually worth relatively little in monetary terms, perhaps just providing a living allowance for him. Remember that arrangement (presumably with RB UK division) dates back to 2014, with it only paying for helmet/cap level of exposure until 2017. Suninen isn't even a Red Bull 'Athlete' according to their website (go to rally section): https://www.redbull.com/int-en/athletes

As such, if Monster were interested in bringing proper money to M-Sport like Red Bull had, it'd just mean Elfyn having to drop his personal deal. I can't see that being much of a problem...

[Essaj]

it'd just mean Elfyn having to drop his personal deal. I can't see that being much of a problem...

There is always contracts in play, but Monster or any other possible big sponsor is always welcome into WRC


Suninen isn't even a Red Bull 'Athlete' according to their website

Well neither is Ogier then :D

[Tsiiem]

Suninen isn't even a Red Bull 'Athlete' according to their website (go to rally section): https://www.redbull.com/int-en/athletes


Yes he is. Just like Ogier and Evans. Try to go to "WRC" section. Or just with country Finland (or France) and you can find them.

[AnttiL]

https://twitter.com/kiwiwrcfan/status/1072144108066504705

Wilson saying two cars at most for 2019

[er88]

Annoying. That's 10 WRC cars at most events, and this season it felt already a bit low if you were out spectating. The difference between the top class in terms of spectacle and the R5s is huge, just wish the R5s had a bit more noise about them at least.

[the sniper]

Yes he is. Just like Ogier and Evans. Try to go to "WRC" section. Or just with country Finland (or France) and you can find them.

Doh! Maybe they're just ahead of the game, Loeb, Evans and Mikkelsen demoted from WRC to Rally section. :D

[RS]

https://twitter.com/kiwiwrcfan/status/1072144108066504705

Wilson saying two cars at most for 2019

Presumably if they don’t register as a manufacturer next year they cannot homologate new parts?

[Tarmop]

If they don`t run at all, then probably what ypu are saying, but running atleast 2 cars on every round makes them eligible.

[jiipee64]

Valtteri Bottas will drive WRC Ford in Artic-rally next January.

[Rallyper]

Valtteri Bottas will drive WRC Ford in Artic-rally next January.

Brings some funding to MW...?

[Allez Andruet]

Brings some funding to MW...?

I wouldn't count on that...

[Tarmop]

Could very well be OT racing`s car aka ex. Ostberg. Or even if M-Sport, it`s something but won`t help much.

[AnttiL]

No, it’s announced to be M-Sport and they tweeted it as well

[racerx1979]

Snow rally as your first WRC event is a brave move. Very difficult to read roads and gel with a co-driver in the snow. I hope he does well and loves it! We need more drivers to help the sport.

[Oliverk]

Snow rally as your first WRC event is a brave move. Very difficult to read roads and gel with a co-driver in the snow. I hope he does well and loves it! We need more drivers to help the sport.

Every finn knows how to drive in snow and ice. Prob easier with studded tires in ice than gravel rally with changing grip.

[Rallyper]

I wouldn't count on that...

So he´s doing for free from MW? No, doubt that.

Maybe if he´s hiring the car from Estonia, or something, but then it´s not MSport Ford WRC...

[AnttiL]

Of course paying for his ride but not becoming M-Sport’s sponsor

[RAS007]

So he´s doing for free from MW? No, doubt that.

Maybe if he´s hiring the car from Estonia, or something, but then it´s not MSport Ford WRC...


There was a time when one of the leading F1 drivers in the world would not have had to pay for an outing in a rally car.

[the sniper]

That's another Monster Energy 'athlete' joining the M-Sport customer list... https://www.monsterenergy.com/gb/en/sports/formula-1-racing/valtteri-bottas ;)

With all that fuss about amateurs driving WRC '17 cars, it'll be interesting to see if anyone has anything to say about Bottas making his rallying debut in one... He should take it steady.

[Zeakiwi]

Bottas should do okay if he does not chase the more experienced rally men.

Bottas versus Mr Herbert in CrossKarts on snow/ ice.

https://youtu.be/kSKvPAms6W8

[TypeR]

,,Valtteri, it's James..!''

[T16]

That's another Monster Energy 'athlete' joining the M-Sport customer list... https://www.monsterenergy.com/gb/en/sports/formula-1-racing/valtteri-bottas ;)

With all that fuss about amateurs driving WRC '17 cars, it'll be interesting to see if anyone has anything to say about Bottas making his rallying debut in one... He should take it steady.

I thought the same thing, rallying and F1 crossover is a fairly hot topic, for obvious reasons at the moment.
I’m assuming that the nature of rallying between snowbanks is seen to be safer than in between rock faces and Armco? Otherwise, I can’t understand how Mercedes have allowed it with Kubica’s incident in the spotlight right now.

[AnttiL]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuNXIJVWkAAnNgV.jpg

[Fast Eddie WRC]

Sounds promising that they will stay in WRC..
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140631/msport-fight-for-a-wrc-future-after-ogier

[T16]

Sounds promising that they will stay in WRC..
https://www.autosport.com/wrc/news/140631/msport-fight-for-a-wrc-future-after-ogier

Interesting points on the cost of aero pieces - I guess we all saw that coming. Also confirmation that M-sport funded Ogier, not Wilson 'from his own pocket' like a few said on here.

You can't knock the guy's passion though.. like he says, he doesn't have to do it and commercially, it's not really viable.. he just does it because he believes in operating at the highest level.

I think the rule-makers have some serious head-scratching to do, so the new regs are defined ASAP and, ultimately, cost effective, without losing the spectacle.... And on top of this, they are probably going to give serious consideration to electric too.

As I have said before, this may look all rosey, but it's a critical time for the WRC right now and I hope to hell they get the next set of regs right.

Keep at it Malcolm, the series wouldn't be the same without you.

[T16]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DuNXIJVWkAAnNgV.jpg

The sides are ok (ish - could be tidier) but, the front and rear are too 'busy'... I know it's opinions and all that, but it still surprises me that some of the top-spec cars don't look as well finished as some further down the pecking order.

[er88]

3rd car possible then? The likes of Block, Camilli, Greensmith and Ostberg could pay for certain rounds.

Suninen is in for the full season and it seems like it'll be one of Breen or Evans for the 2nd seat. 4 full seasons in the WRC vs no full seasons for Breen has to count against Evans, so I'd choose Breen. And maybe Craig can find a little bit of money too, he's always managed to find some budget when in need. But maybe Wilson will want to remain loyal and give Evans one last, last chance.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

In his words again:
"I wouldn't swap those two years for anything, but I can't continue [like that]," he says.

I, not we.

[Andre Oliveira]

Maybe we get Bouffier in MC, Tidemand in SWE, etc etc etc

[T16]

In his words again:
"I wouldn't swap those two years for anything, but I can't continue [like that]," he says.

I, not we.

He means I as in I, the owner of M-sport... come on.

From the article:

"M-Sport is still counting the cost of two years of funding Ogier."

[T16]

3rd car possible then? The likes of Block, Camilli, Greensmith and Ostberg could pay for certain rounds.

Suninen is in for the full season and it seems like it'll be one of Breen or Evans for the 2nd seat. 4 full seasons in the WRC vs no full seasons for Breen has to count against Evans, so I'd choose Breen. And maybe Craig can find a little bit of money too, he's always managed to find some budget when in need. But maybe Wilson will want to remain loyal and give Evans one last, last chance.

I would love to see Evans have a crack at it again, but my gut tells me that Breen is probably the better bet of the two... especially given the reputation the Citroen had for being as bad as it was (is).

[AnttiL]

Strong rumors of Evans as the other full season driver.

[Fast Eddie WRC]

He means I as in I, the owner of M-sport... come on.

From the article:

"M-Sport is still counting the cost of two years of funding Ogier."

That's just the article quote, mine is Wilson's own words.

[T16]

That's just the article quote, mine is Wilson's own words.

Either way, to me it's clear that he is referring to himself as the owner / figurehead of M-Sport, not that he funded, but Eddie, maybe I should not have brought it up again. Happy to disagree on it.

[wia5958]

Lots of Welsh fans have been telling me Evans deserves to be #1 at M-Sport now and is the best for the role.

Does anyone agree and rate Evans as a WRC driver deserving a seat ?

Would evans get a seat in any of the orher teams at the minute as a number 3 driver never mind a number 2. I dont think he would. The fact that theres no other viable number 1 for msport is his only arguement. Dont get me wrong i like evans and admire his commitment but he just isnt number 1 driver material. Give sunninen the role and see it would help him progress greatly as a driver i think. Evans has had several chances and just not made the cut

[Tarmop]

Either way, to me it's clear that he is referring to himself as the owner / figurehead of M-Sport, not that he funded, but Eddie, maybe I should not have brought it up again. Happy to disagree on it.

" M-Sport boss Malcolm Wilson dipped deep into his personal pockets to secure Ogier for 2017 and understandably it’s not something he wishes to do again."

I also saw a video interview with Wilson saying exactly the same, it was at the end of 2017 and i can`t find it anymore. You are welcome to look them through yourself.

[cali]

Evans has won and leading multiple events, Breen hasn't. As much as Ilike Breen I would prefer Evans for 2nd sest at MSport

[wia5958]

Evans has won and leading multiple events, Breen hasn't. As much as Ilike Breen I would prefer Evans for 2nd sest at MSport but has breen shown his full potential yet? Evans had 4 full seasons and with 1 victory and a few podiums in that time mostly thanks to Dmacks aswell y not take a risk on breen and go with him. Wilson knows what breens capable of from their s2000 days so why not he cant do much worse than evans

[steve.mandzij]

Evans has won and leading multiple events, Breen hasn't. As much as Ilike Breen I would prefer Evans for 2nd sest at MSportPut Breen on Dmacks and he wins a rally.

[Allez Andruet]

Sweden aside, Breen's 2018 was terrible. Evans didn't do much better himself, but atleast he showed some pace and consistency on the last few rallies.

[T16]

Sweden aside, Breen's 2018 was terrible. Evans didn't do much better himself, but atleast he showed some pace and consistency on the last few rallies.

You think he was driving to his maximum, or told to go steady to help Ogier? I'm hoping he was steady, if not, then he probably doesn't deserve another shot... the fact that he's still on Wilson's shortlist says something.