Public Sector Strikers - A good cause or just muscle flexing unions?

[SGWilko]

Why, if you are supposedly so hard done by, would you choose to lose a days pay to make a statement that will likely infuriate private sector workers who have not had a pay rise in years, don't have job security and don't have pension schemes provided by their employers? Most private pensions have lost a LOT of money due to the credit crunch.

Does money really grow on trees?

[BDunnell]

Bit of both, I think — unions living in a pre-financial crisis past, but also a situation in which the present government has chosen to hit the public sector hardest for partly ideological reasons, so I can see why many would choose to object to such treatment.

[SGWilko]

Bit of both, I think — unions living in a pre-financial crisis past, but also a situation in which the present government has chosen to hit the public sector hardest for partly ideological reasons, so I can see why many would choose to object to such treatment.

Yes, but wasn't the public sector artificially swolen by the previous government to artificially shorten the doll queue's and lessen the benefit burden?

[Sonic]

Whilst I can sympathise with public sector workers, striking in this situation will achieve nothing. There is no money in the pot and whilst it hurts to have a pay freeze, followed by two years of sub-inflation rises with the additional expectation to work longer the unions needs to wake up to the realities of the situation. Personally I haven't seen a pay rise in 7 years.

My wife is public sector, so as a family we know all too well the real effect her real terms pay cut is having, but she has gone to work today simply thankful she does have a job and the guarantee of a still reasonable pension in retirement.

I am also very pleased to report that my son's school is open with not a single member of staff walking out today.

[MrJan]

One of the comments on the BBC website was complaining that he would no longer be able to retire at 60 but would have to work until 67. It's stuff like that which really gets my back up, where they're complaining about something really cushy being taken away. I don't admit to knowing an awful lot about it but those people (apparently not that many anymore...according to a Union leader I heard earlier) on final pay pensions are unbelievably lucky. I've had a pension for about 3 years (actually 3 months but set up retrospectively to when I started). It's great because the company matches what I'm putting in, something which I don't believe is that common in the private sector these days. However this is based on my current salary which, I hope, is a long way from what I'll be on 40 years from now. To have a pension based on your salary at retirement age is a dream world IMO. At some point the public sector will have to accept that they will be ripe for plenty of cuts in hard times, simply because they take up a large amount of government resources.

[MrJan]

I am also very pleased to report that my son's school is open with not a single member of staff walking out today.

The school thing pisses me off, they always seem to be striking. All the major airports are reporting that they're running fine, yet a vast number of schools have had to close, it's ridiculous.

[SGWilko]

The school thing pisses me off, they always seem to be striking. All the major airports are reporting that they're running fine, yet a vast number of schools have had to close, it's ridiculous.

All the working parents that have had to take time off, and the loss of productivity that that brings to the private sector..........

[BDunnell]

To have a pension based on your salary at retirement age is a dream world IMO.

We may think this now, but if it is what people have been promised, you can understand their frustration.

[SGWilko]

We may think this now, but if it is what people have been promised, you can understand their frustration.

Loss of final salary schemes is not exclusive to the public sector! If there is no money, what is to be done?

[BDunnell]

Loss of final salary schemes is not exclusive to the public sector! If there is no money, what is to be done?

I don't know. I believe people in the private sector ought to be hacked off about it too.

Let's face it, people find it decidedly hard to come to the view that 'we're all in it together' when we see the government wasting billions on things like an aircraft carrier that may not be able to bring its full capability to bear until, we now read, 2030.

[SGWilko]

I don't know. I believe people in the private sector ought to be hacked off about it too.



I am. No rise since 2007, a private pension that is worth less now than pre-financial crisis value(no work pension), working in an industry that is on its knees and fearful of losing my job. As a taxpayer, I resent the strikers as they could be in a much worse position....

[BDunnell]

I am. No rise since 2007, a private pension that is worth less now than pre-financial crisis value(no work pension), working in an industry that is on its knees and fearful of losing my job. As a taxpayer, I resent the strikers as they could be in a much worse position....

I do sympathise.

[SGWilko]

I do sympathise.

It's the same for everyone though, so it's a case of head down, keep my nose clean and be thankful I get paid every month!!!

[555-04Q2]

Why, if you are supposedly so hard done by, would you choose to lose a days pay to make a statement that will likely infuriate private sector workers who have not had a pay rise in years, don't have job security and don't have pension schemes provided by their employers? Most private pensions have lost a LOT of money due to the credit crunch.

Does money really grow on trees?

Because they are ungratefull idiots!

[Mark]

The roads were noticeably quieter on the trip into work today. I think purely from people having to take a day off work to look after the kids.

[Bezza]

I wholly disagree with these strikes. They are selfish, self-indulgent and downright foolish. They are causing far more harm than good to the economy and will acheive absolutely nothing. Miliband has embarrassed himself by clearly using the Unions position as an opportunity to gain votes.

A lot of teachers on strikes aren't even taking part in the rally. One teacher I know is out currently doing Christmas shopping, happy with an (unpaid) day off.

Teachers get paid very well, have excellent holiday entitlement and other allowances, yet a cut on their already over-inflated pension compared to the private sector leaves them putting the whole country at a standstill.

Incredibly selfish actions and you will not see any sympathy coming from me on this.

[GridGirl]

My other half works in the public sector and isn't stiking today. If he did I would have little sympathy. If he continues to work in the public sector until retirement and has no change in salary his predicted retirement cash lump sum on retirement is somewhere between £60k and £80K depending on the retirement option he chooses. My lump sum on the other hand will be a big fat zero pounds. Its hard for me to show much sympathy for a strike about the future accrual of retirement benefits when private sector pension schemes are in the main quite poor in comparison. I suppose the other alternative would be to close public sector schemes to new entrants but that doesnt appear to be an idea that would be welcomed either.

I also think its quite easy to strike for one day. My mum was part of the NHS's longest ever strike some years ago. Striking over a prolonged period earning only £15 per day whilst still paying the bills and putting food on the table is a completely different scenario to the odd one day strike!

[BDunnell]

I also think its quite easy to strike for one day. My mum was part of the NHS's longest ever strike some years ago. Striking over a prolonged period earning only £15 per day whilst still paying the bills and putting food on the table is a completely different scenario to the odd one day strike!

Now that I do agree with.

[inimitablestoo]

I'm in the public sector and I was in work today. Personally I don't have any problem with the proposed changes, and I have a fundamental problem with industrial action and trade unions anyway (I find it difficult to discuss them without using the phrase "glorified protection racket").

Nevertheless, the facts are these: the pensions have always been generous to make up for the fact that the pay is lousy. This remains the case, no matter what lies you may hear about averages - I'm on well below the average, and so are most of my colleagues.

I have also only ever signed one contract to start work in the public sector, which says I only have to work to 60 and will receive a final salary-based pension at the end of it. No new contract has ever been presented to me for me to sign. If my employers are going to start ignoring great chunks of my contract, I assume I can start ignoring great chunks of it as well.

I do sympathise, though, with anyone forced to go and work in the private sector. Please let me know what it was like the moment someone forced a gun to your head and made you go and work there :)

[BDunnell]

I have also only ever signed one contract to start work in the public sector, which says I only have to work to 60 and will receive a final salary-based pension at the end of it. No new contract has ever been presented to me for me to sign. If my employers are going to start ignoring great chunks of my contract, I assume I can start ignoring great chunks of it as well.

And therein lies the key point.

I agree very much with all the points you make.

[driveace]

I have worked for ME for 50 years,never had a day off,unless I have been really poorly,and dont have a pension.My choice was to save and invest,and work hard.At 71 i still work ,as i want to(Use it or lose it).I get £104 per week,and have my savings,for any extras or holidays,and dont struggle to live a nice life.Dont these strikers realise how lucky they are to have a job to go to,and that the Union bosses,are all well paid and live in very large houses,and they are being used.No sympathy from me and if they are not happy with their job,then leave,so someone else can replace them.To retire AT 60 AND not do anything can be very boring,so they then finish up working packing shelfs atb supermarkets to stop the boredom.

[ArrowsFA1]

The legitimacy of the strike is considerably weakened given the low % of union members who actually voted. Rather than representing their members the unions appear to be perusing their own agenda, which is clearly opposed to the current government.

We're all aware that belts must be tightened, and perhaps the low turnout (vote wise) reflects a reluctant acknowledgement that while there are grievances this is not the time to push the issue.

That said, this government has presented the dispute as taxpayers v the public sector, which ignores the fact that the public sector workers are as much tax payers as anyone else. It's deliberately divisive, confrontational and unhelpful.

We're repeatedly told that we're all in this together. If that were true there would be no strike but in answer to the thread question - muscle flexing unions.

[BDunnell]

The legitimacy of the strike is considerably weakened given the low % of union members who actually voted. Rather than representing their members the unions appear to be perusing their own agenda, which is clearly opposed to the current government.

We're all aware that belts must be tightened, and perhaps the low turnout (vote wise) reflects a reluctant acknowledgement that while there are grievances this is not the time to push the issue.

That said, this government has presented the dispute as taxpayers v the public sector, which ignores the fact that the public sector workers are as much tax payers as anyone else. It's deliberately divisive, confrontational and unhelpful.

We're repeatedly told that we're all in this together. If that were true there would be no strike but in answer to the thread question - muscle flexing unions.

Unions whose leaders, in many cases, seem to have opinions stuck in 1983.

[ioan]

Bit of both, I think — unions living in a pre-financial crisis past, but also a situation in which the present government has chosen to hit the public sector hardest for partly ideological reasons, so I can see why many would choose to object to such treatment.

Agree.

[race aficionado]

I find this thread very interesting, specially because some of our Brit forum members are experiencing this directly and can share with us what they are going through.

I for one have always liked the concept and the implementation of a Union to protect the workers - but I also know that as time has gone by, many of these unions have crystalized themselves and have lost their original intent.

How do we fix that? How do we "clean house" - press the "refresh"button and still maintain a useful and successful Union?

[BDunnell]

I find this thread very interesting, specially because some of our Brit forum members are experiencing this directly and can share with us what they are going through.

I for one have always liked the concept and the implementation of a Union to protect the workers - but I also know that as time has gone by, many of these unions have crystalized themselves and have lost their original intent.

How do we fix that? How do we "clean house" - press the "refresh"button and still maintain a useful and successful Union?

A very good question. I don't pretend to know the answer, except to say that the union to which I belong would, in my view, do better to devote all its efforts towards the very real issue of defending journalists' rights and press freedoms at home and abroad than proclaiming its solidarity for striking miners in Nicaragua, or wherever.

[ioan]

A very good question. I don't pretend to know the answer, except to say that the union to which I belong would, in my view, do better to devote all its efforts towards the very real issue of defending journalists' rights and press freedoms at home and abroad than proclaiming its solidarity for striking miners in Nicaragua, or wherever.

Maybe they think there aren't any real issues at home? I'm just kidding.

[BDunnell]

Maybe they think there aren't any real issues at home? I'm just kidding.

To be fair, they do much excellent work on issues relating to journalism and journalists in the UK.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If I was being told that my pension scheme that I had been paying into for so many years was being changed I'd be fairly annoyed. But with so many people struggling to find work, do they really expect to find much sympathy?

Another question though. We have known for decades that there is going to be a pension crisis when the 'baby boom' generation reached retirement age. Has any government done anything about it?

[BDunnell]

If I was being told that my pension scheme that I had been paying into for so many years was being changed I'd be fairly annoyed. But with so many people struggling to find work, do they really expect to find much sympathy?

I wonder whether pensions are the primary concern of a majority of those on strike, or whether it is the prospect of job losses and budget cuts across the board.

[ioan]

If I was being told that my pension scheme that I had been paying into for so many years was being changed I'd be fairly annoyed. But with so many people struggling to find work, do they really expect to find much sympathy?

Who says this won't be also their fate later? I never understood why people who temporarily don't have a job are reluctant to support those with a job when these are protesting against the government. One day they will be in that same situation and will need support, and won't have it.


Another question though. We have known for decades that there is going to be a pension crisis when the 'baby boom' generation reached retirement age. Has any government done anything about it?

Not really, but that's another problem, they are in office for 4 to 5 years, often much shorter so why would they take measures for something that will only be an issue in a decade or more?
There is no easy solution to this issue though.

[IceWizard]

I work for a Council and didn't strike today. Only about a quarter of our staff were on strike. I'm not a Union member and quite frankly have little time for unions. I didn't ask them to represent me and unlike with conventional politics, there is no option to pick another Union to represent me if I don't like Unison.

However, I can fully understand why my colleagues are angry. With the proposed cuts, those who are paying into a pension have been effectively paying for something that they aren't going to receive. I have chosen not to join the pension scheme so it doesn't affect me directly. What I do resent though is people saying that public sector workers are greedy for complaining about the cuts. That idiot, Brown, and the banks are key causes of the financial crisis and yet they get away with it while the rest of us, both public and private sector have to pay for the damage caused.

[GridGirl]

If I was being told that my pension scheme that I had been paying into for so many years was being changed I'd be fairly annoyed. But with so many people struggling to find work, do they really expect to find much sympathy.

This is where you are wrong to a certain degree. Yes, they want to change the age at which you can retire but I was under the presumption that the pension you have paid into for years isn't going to change. The pension contributions which you have already accrued will remain the same and in your retirement your pension will be calculated to the scheme rules in force at the date which those benefits accrued. The proposed changes in contribution rates for example relate to the future accrual of pension benefits. No one has yet worked, paid into a pension scheme or accrued those benefits. If the rules changed today and you retired tomorrow I was under the impression that your pension wouldn't really change. If you worked another 20 years your pension benefits could indeed be quite different.

[SGWilko]

If I was being told that my pension scheme that I had been paying into for so many years was being changed I'd be fairly annoyed. But with so many people struggling to find work, do they really expect to find much sympathy?

Another question though. We have known for decades that there is going to be a pension crisis when the 'baby boom' generation reached retirement age. Has any government done anything about it?

Just bear in mind those folk - like myself - who are not lucky enough to have a work provided pension scheme, and have to provide for our own future. What choice do we have when Labour raids the coffers of the pension companies, or when markets crash and values are significantly diminished?

This is why I have no sympathy for these strikers. Look at the Police and the Armed forces. Public servants, all had the same cuts etc, but they are NOT ALLOWED to strike.......

[SGWilko]

Not really, but that's another problem, they are in office for 4 to 5 years, often much shorter so why would they take measures for something that will only be an issue in a decade or more?
There is no easy solution to this issue though.

That's the rub, isn't it!

[wedge]

I have a fundamental problem with industrial action and trade unions anyway (I find it difficult to discuss them without using the phrase "glorified protection racket").

Don't get me started on union reps. All I will say is that immigrants are the hardest workers on a shopfloor...

[555-04Q2]

Don't get me started on union reps. All I will say is that immigrants are the hardest workers on a shopfloor...

...and they never complain!

[ioan]

...and they never complain!

Just wait till they learn the language.

[race aficionado]

Justifiable complaining is a good thing.


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[555-04Q2]

Just wait till they learn the language.

No way!!! Our Zimbabwean immigrants (who speak our languages) do twice the work that our locals do in the same time without ever complaining!!!

[SGWilko]

In all this I love how Jeremy Clarkson's comment on the One Show was completely taken out of context by the British tabloid press forcing the BBC to make an apology. I was quite disappointed to see the Telegraph join in I must admit. Having seen what he said- i.e a pro strike comment, followed by a dig at the BBC suggesting a more balanced view needed to be said too, before his 'protesters should be shot' comment, it does seem to be a case of don't let facts/context get in the way of a good story. At the end of the day Clarkson says things for effect and once again he's succeeded and for the past two days, his name has been given all the publicity he needed. lol Makes me laugh. :p

The fact that these moronic Union leaders make such a big thing of it just show how narrow minded and challenged they really are. Quite why anyone would pay a union to take them on strike so they lose a days' pay is beyond me - they must be loaded to afford it all.

Oh, and here is what a pension lawyer mate of mind put on my Facebook;


The unions in both public and private sectors alike battle to maintain employee benefits for their members, however, the private sector has been rather more reality driven - i.e. its employees tend to more readily accept that the ever incre...asing pension costs are not sustainable, as opposed to the public sector expectation that the government should just find the cash and no excuses. Defined benefit pension schemes are closing in the private sector every day of the week. In a government report last year, 94% of private sector employers said they intended to close schemes or reduce member benefits. The reality is that, even after the government make their proposed changes (and they will), public sector workers will still have better, more valuable pension benefits than the vast majority of private sector workers. I only saw the local swimming pool being picketed yesterday morning, and then just shed loads of cops around St James yesterday evening. All seemed quiet though by the time I rolled out of the Ritz ****e-faced at 2am this morning :P

Sums it up for me.